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The 28th Amendment: Defining humanity in the age of artificial intelligence · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:26
  Well, hello, everyone, and welcome to the 10 Penny Files.
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  I'm your host, Dr.
• 0:30
  Sherry Tenpenny.
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• 1:59
  So with that, let's get started.
• 2:02
  Today's conversation is with podcaster, author, and political commentator, Booker Scott, to talk about his book, Fight for the Future of Humanity, Making the Case for the 28th Amendment, an extremely thought-provoking book about artificial intelligence and the coming debate about the rights of robots.
• 2:23
  Booker, welcome so much to the Tempity Files.
• 2:25
  It's so great to see you today.
• 2:27
  Thank you, Dr.
• 2:28
  Timpenny.
• 2:28
  Thank you so much for the invitation to be here.
• 2:30
  I appreciate it.
• 2:31
  I'm looking forward to it.
• 2:32
  I've been looking forward to it for a couple of weeks and ready to dig into artificial intelligence and what it's all about.
• 2:38
  It's all we hear about.
• 2:39
  Everybody's talking about it.
• 2:41
  And I don't think a lot of people really have considered where all of this may go.
• 2:45
  And that's the reason that we wrote the book.
• 2:48
  And I'm just glad to be here.
• 2:49
  And I thank you very much.
• 2:51
  Well, it really is a when I said in the intro, a thought-provoking book, it really is.
• 2:56
  I cannot tell you how many people I've already recommended your book to, and said that this is a different type of book.
• 3:02
  It's an easy read, it's a fast read, but it's probably one of the most important reads out there about AI.
• 3:08
  So why don't you take us back to the origins of AI?
• 3:11
  You know, we just started hearing about this a couple of years ago.
• 3:14
  And so we think it's like new to the scene, but it actually started back in 1956.
• 3:20
  How did this become insidiously part of our everyday life?
• 3:24
  Well, it is using us, and we are using it, and we have been for decades.
• 3:29
  And I think one thing that has changed is architecture of large language models along with neural networks.
• 3:36
  Those are architecture and code, writing code, and uh that would be chat GPT and Grok.
• 3:43
  Everybody loves those things, they can do videos, they answer questions for you.
• 3:48
  And that in the last few years has really brought the attention to artificial intelligence.
• 3:53
  But as you said in the book, we take you back to the origins of it, which started in the Dartmouth conference in the summer of 1956 with the smartest people in America.
• 4:03
  And that's where artificial intelligence was actually coined.
• 4:07
  And you can go back a little bit further back to 1950 to Alan Turing, and there is the Turing test now, which really just says, okay, is this machine smart as a human or smarter than a human?
• 4:20
  And if it is, then it passes the Turing test.
• 4:23
  And what we deal with in this book, as you know, because you've read it, is the sentience and consciousness in human beings.
• 4:31
  And that is uh not in human beings, but in the robots and in these entities that are coming.
• 4:37
  And uh, I know it seems like science fiction, but in reality it isn't.
• 4:42
  So going back to 1956, a lot of the biases that um were around at that time, were also uh coded into the things that we see now in artificial intelligence.
• 4:55
  In a lot of ways in healthcare and employment and education, there can be those biases that are carried through.
• 5:02
  A lot of people don't understand that artificial intelligence really is just math.
• 5:06
  It is computing numbers.
• 5:09
  It doesn't really have a consciousness yet.
• 5:12
  Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
• 5:14
  But that's really what artificial intelligence is math.
• 5:18
  It's doing math.
• 5:19
  If you go back to 1997, a lot of people remember deep blue, and that was the computer that beat world chess champion uh in chess, and it was an amazing story at the time.
• 5:30
  Well, that was artificial intelligence.
• 5:32
  That was back in 1997.
• 5:34
  And I don't think that a lot of people realized that that was artificial intelligence.
• 5:38
  And before you woke up this morning, artificial intelligence had already been using you.
• 5:43
  It had uh it had decided what emails you were going to get, which ones go to spam, which ones come to your inbox.
• 5:50
  It decides what is in your feed and social media.
• 5:53
  All of that is artificial intelligence.
• 5:55
  It's much more than just chat GPT and Grok and all these other large language models that everybody loves to play with.
• 6:03
  Well, I think that that's really, really important and uh to say that it's just math, um, at least right now, because it's hard to imagine that you're having this conversation with math.
• 6:16
  Because you have a conversation with Chat GPT or GROC.
• 6:20
  I mean, I I find it, I find uh Chat GPT to be more conversational than Grok.
• 6:25
  I don't know, maybe because I've spent more time over there, but the limitations are really um you know, are coming more prevalent.
• 6:34
  I think it's because people are using more of it and they're finding out that it's not always accurate, and that you really do have to check things that come to you.
• 6:41
  Why do you call you know, but the next late the next level up is going to be artificial general intelligence?
• 6:47
  Yeah.
• 6:47
  And why do you have that pseudo-consciousness?
• 6:51
  Well, if uh uh an entity is what I call it, it could be a robot, it could be whatever, it could be a Tesla.
• 6:58
  If it has the ability to learn across multiple domains, and that artificial intelligence has the architecture to learn everything, it's become smarter than any of us.
• 7:09
  And that's what artificial general intelligence is.
• 7:12
  And in chapter six of the book, I talk about a lunch that I had with Martin Rothblad.
• 7:17
  And Martin Rothblatt has an incredible career, very forward-thinking, a futurist, but also very successful in business because of the way she thinks forward.
• 7:27
  She was the person that advented satellite radio all the way back in 1984.
• 7:31
  1984, I wasn't even close to thinking about putting a satellite up in space and shooting it down to cars to have a crystal clear radio.
• 7:39
  But that's what Martin Rothland did.
• 7:41
  Her company was serious.
• 7:43
  She ended up by having a company worth 13 billion.
• 7:45
  She got out of it in 1990.
• 7:48
  And she was also an FCC attorney.
• 7:50
  She wrote um legislation that was passed by the UN General Assembly.
• 7:54
  She also created a robot, Ben of 48 in 2010.
• 7:58
  That robot ended up going to college.
• 8:00
  And she talks about mind files and very interesting person.
• 8:04
  She started a pharmaceutical company, uh United Therapeutics for lungs.
• 8:10
  She had a daughter born with a lung disease.
• 8:12
  So she decided to study medicine and became the highest paid female executive in America, making 40 million dollars a year, creating artificial lungs and also the medicine to help help people live with that lung disease.
• 8:25
  That's just a little background on her.
• 8:27
  So when I had the opportunity to have lunch with her back in 2014, and it was two-hour lunch, just the two of us.
• 8:34
  And I really enjoy meeting people like that.
• 8:36
  I've had an opportunity to meet a few in my life and pick their brain.
• 8:40
  And at the end of our lunch, she looked at me and she said there are people right now writing code that will have robots have every emotion that you have.
• 8:49
  They will love, they will hurt, they will feel.
• 8:52
  And when they do, they're going to need rights, or they're going to become nothing more than a slave class, just like the black people were in America.
• 9:00
  And you know, as I left that that meeting, I was walking out to my car.
• 9:04
  I thought, well, this is this is crazy.
• 9:06
  But it's also as crazy as thinking you could put a satellite up in space in 1984 to shoot down radio stations to cars.
• 9:14
  In 1997, Martine Rothblatt, she put satellites into space for the internet long before Elon Musk.
• 9:21
  She has this history of telling us what is going to happen.
• 9:26
  And so it didn't really make a huge impact on me because again, I thought, well, that's crazy.
• 9:32
  But now over the last three or four years, as artificial intelligence is everywhere.
• 9:37
  Every time I turn on the newscast, it's about artificial intelligence.
• 9:40
  There's some story there, whether it's financial or or national security.
• 9:45
  And then they go to a commercial break, and the commercial breaks are talking about artificial intelligence.
• 9:50
  So that really was the desire to, you know, do some investigating and look into what exactly are the experts saying about this artificial.
• 10:00
  Intelligence, where is it taking us?
• 10:02
  What does it mean for our future?
• 10:03
  And what can we do about it?
• 10:05
  Or do we need to do anything about it at all?
• 10:07
  And what we came to the conclusion of, and you're making uh, you know, the case for Chad GPT, I use Grok more than Chad, but in either case, the way I describe them to people is understanding that artificial intelligence is still very rigid, it's on the tracks, it's controllable.
• 10:24
  And you asked about AGI.
• 10:26
  AGI may very well not be controllable, and that is the fear.
• 10:31
  And I want to get into the pseudo-consciousness part too, but I want to go back to back to Chat GPT because you brought it up.
• 10:38
  The way I try to describe it to people is if you remember going to the library when I was in college and you had to do a paper, you would go to the library and you'd get some help from a librarian, take you to the card catalog and the Dewey Decimal system.
• 10:51
  Maybe that library librarian would walk you to a shelf, and on that shelf were multiple books about the subject that I would write about, but they could be completely different opinions.
• 11:02
  Well, ChatGPT and Grok, they're doing the same thing as that Dewey decimal system or the card catalog and the librarian taking you to the shelf.
• 11:10
  You have multiple choices, and you have to have the wisdom and the discernment to know the difference, because they're not always the right answer.
• 11:17
  You will find that these AIs are trained to please you.
• 11:21
  So if you set up a question to both chat and grok in your belief to begin with, they're going to find the best answer, just that like that librarian would in asking you a question.
• 11:32
  Well, what are you doing your paper on?
• 11:34
  And she would select that book instead of the other book.
• 11:37
  And this is the same thing that Chad and Grok are.
• 11:39
  They're no smarter than that.
• 11:41
  They are finding the information that you request for.
• 11:43
  Not that I'm not saying librarians aren't smart, but I have a lot of respect for them.
• 11:47
  I didn't mean that at all.
• 11:48
  It kind of came out that way.
• 11:49
  But uh that that's a simple way to understand what Chad and Grok are doing when you ask them to do something.
• 11:56
  And I played around with it a lot, and I would set up the question differently, and I would get completely different answers.
• 12:02
  And so that was interesting.
• 12:04
  And the conclusion that we came to, and it's at the beginning of the book.
• 12:07
  I think it's actually in the introduction was that it still takes human wisdom and discernment to when you get this.
• 12:15
  And I see so many people on social media.
• 12:17
  Well, Grok said, well, Grok isn't saying anything, it is scraping the internet for the best possible answer according to what you believe and how you set up the question.
• 12:27
  And so I think it's important to understand that that is artificial intelligence and certain architectures, in this case, it's large language models and neural networks.
• 12:37
  Now, the question that I'm going to get back to that you asked was about artificial general intelligence and pseudo-consciousness.
• 12:45
  So we don't really know what human consciousness is in reality.
• 12:50
  Philosophers haven't been able to define it in thousands of years.
• 12:53
  Science can't really tell us what it is as a believer myself.
• 12:58
  I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
• 13:00
  I believe that we all have a soul.
• 13:02
  So to me, it would almost seem silly that robots would have rights.
• 13:06
  Why do they need rights?
• 13:08
  They don't have a soul, you can turn them off, which is another uh, you know, that's that's something else.
• 13:13
  We may not be able to turn these off when they get to artificial general intelligence.
• 13:17
  Some experts believe that when it comes to that, these entities will learn and code itself to preserve itself like a human being would.
• 13:29
  And the last thing that we want as humans is to die, and if they are learning that, then the last thing they want to do is die.
• 13:36
  Some experts believe that we will actually become the slave class to that entity to artificial general intelligence or pseudo-consciousness.
• 13:46
  And there has been, well, Martin Rothblatt would be one of them, but there are many smart people who have advocated for robots' rights.
• 13:54
  And they say that if robots don't have rights in the future, then that is saying something about us as a society and as a people.
• 14:02
  A lot of people will draw comparisons to the animal rights.
• 14:05
  Animals didn't always have rights.
• 14:07
  You know, they they didn't have rights, but now they do.
• 14:10
  You have to treat dogs with a certain respect, and they draw the comparison with robots and that.
• 14:15
  And uh, so even though we may consider it's only silicon and circuitry, if people assign humanity or pseudo-consciousness to them, which we see that happening now.
• 14:28
  We see people marrying chat GBT and proposing to them.
• 14:32
  If if they only assign it, whether they actually have a human consciousness or not, then we could be in a world of trouble.
• 14:39
  And we need to protect ourselves in the future to make sure that that they don't have more rights than us, or our the lines are blurred so much that judges and legislatures can't make a determination on what laws can and can't be.
• 14:55
  Well, then because that's going to be applied to robots, and that's the thing that's so fascinating about your book.
• 15:00
  Uh and the premise really is about do can robots have rights.
• 15:04
  And you go into a lot of detail and stories about that are thought-provoking, like I've said, you know, uh, if a robot kills you, what you know, can it be charged with murder?
• 15:17
  Who's responsible?
• 15:18
  Or if you who's responsible, or if you shut off a robot and essentially kill it, and it has thoughts and emotions and feelings, are you charged with murder and responsible for that?
• 15:30
  And these are really thought-provoking questions that I don't think that any of us really that are just playing around with chat GPT and Grok and Perplexity and some of these other ones, are giving any thought to what we are feeding into them and what we and what the end result may be.
• 15:48
  You know, when I first started playing around with uh chat GPT, I use it, it's a great editor.
• 15:53
  And so um, you know, I write something and then I have it tighten it up or make it more powerful or whatever, it's a good editor.
• 16:01
  And um, but I also understood that it was trying to please me, and I would look at chat GPT like it was a seven-year-old, you know, that that loved their mommy and wanted to please you and give you all the right answers, but it didn't always, and you have to really give it specific instructions, or it's gonna give you stuff that you really weren't looking for.
• 16:24
  It's uh exactly a scary sort of technology in a lot of ways.
• 16:28
  Well, and you brought up uh it felt like you were talking to a seven-year-old at the beginning of the book.
• 16:34
  We use an example of an eight-year-old girl that is using you know an AI, an AGI to help it with homework.
• 16:42
  And you know, this is trained to be um uplifting, positive.
• 16:48
  You don't get any negative feedback from the AI to the child, the child loves to learn from it, but what is that doing to the human connection between the parrot and the child?
• 16:58
  And you know, those are the questions that we ask in the book that I don't think a lot of people are thinking about.
• 17:04
  And you know that the the studies from MIT that show uh people that uh students that use the any of these AIs to do their work, they have no really ownership in it.
• 17:15
  They don't feel like it was their work, they can't even uh recite one quote from their own paper.
• 17:21
  And so the critical thinking aspect of our brains, which is it it's even shown in brain scans, even after you quit using AI, it doesn't come back.
• 17:32
  So in it's dumbing down our society, and it's not making us critical thinkers at a time when I think, and I could argue that we probably need more critical thinkers at this point in world history than we have ever needed, and yet we we're relying on this tool that we think can do so much for us.
• 17:52
  And it in some ways, you know, when they they compose music and maybe make movies.
• 17:58
  Why why do we even need human beings to do these things?
• 18:01
  It sounds soulful when you hear the music that artificial intelligence is made.
• 18:06
  But again, I I want to caution everybody, it's just math, it's just numbers being computed to create all of that.
• 18:14
  And um, when it comes to AGI, the experts uh Leopold Ashenbrenner, he was with the open AI, which was Sam Altman, Sam Altman is open AI.
• 18:25
  These are the guys that we looked at.
• 18:27
  What are they saying?
• 18:28
  When is AGI going to happen?
• 18:29
  Again, that's artificial general intelligence.
• 18:32
  And if I could go back to deep blue, just to give you an idea, and maybe make it easier for you to understand.
• 18:39
  Deep blue that beat the world chess champion could only play chess, and that's what I mean by it's uh artificial intelligence is very rigid, very narrow, very programmable the way it is today.
• 18:52
  It can only play chess.
• 18:53
  If you sat down with a checkerboard in front of it, you would beat it every time.
• 18:57
  It couldn't make the first move because it cannot compute, if that sounds like the robot from Lost in Space.
• 19:04
  That's exactly what that is.
• 19:05
  Now, artificial general intelligence would allow Deep Blue to learn how to play checkers in seconds because it has access to multiple domains, can learn how to do that.
• 19:16
  You can set a checkerboard in front of it and it would beat you every time it checkers as well.
• 19:21
  That's the difference between artificial general intelligence where it can learn itself from just about anywhere, as long as it's available on an artificial intelligence compared to deep blue and a rigid what we have now, which is artificial intelligence.
• 19:36
  So let me go back to those experts and what they say.
• 19:39
  I talked about Leopold Ashenbrenner.
• 19:41
  He was 19 years old when he graduated from Columbia University.
• 19:44
  He uh worked at the Oxford Institute, and then he uh ended up at OpenAI, they separated in 2024.
• 19:51
  He says 2026 is the year that AGI comes, and he says it could be catastrophic.
• 19:57
  Sam Altman, he says 27, 27.
• 20:00
  28.
• 20:00
  Uh Elon Musk has said 26 or 27.
• 20:03
  All of them are closely grouped right here in the next two or three years.
• 20:07
  There are others that put it further out.
• 20:10
  Yan Lacoon, who is the chief engineer at Facebook or Meta, he puts it 10 to 15 years out.
• 20:16
  He doesn't think we have the architecture yet to be able to do this.
• 20:20
  Some people say it may never come.
• 20:23
  And that's a possibility as well.
• 20:25
  But I don't think that we should not be prepared.
• 20:28
  And the reason that we wrote the book is because I I really didn't know myself what artificial intelligence was when I heard about it.
• 20:35
  So we wanted to find out.
• 20:36
  So we take you through a journey in this book from where we you and I started here in this hour, which was uh 1956.
• 20:45
  This is where it started.
• 20:46
  This is how it works.
• 20:47
  This is how it's affecting our lives and education in health care and in employment.
• 20:54
  Those are really the three areas that we key in on.
• 20:57
  And with energy, you know, energy is a big part of it.
• 21:00
  It's going to consume five percent of the world's energy by 2030, uh, which is equivalent to India or Japan's uh energy use annually.
• 21:08
  And that's what people are paying that price now because of the data centers.
• 21:12
  And um, you know, now we're firing up coal mines again to uh provide the energy.
• 21:18
  So there's so much to think about when you start considering AI.
• 21:22
  So we take you through that first part of the book, and then we get to chapter six, which is my launch with Martin Rothblatt, where we talk about uh AGI is coming and what those experts say, and then the third part of the book is what we can do about it.
• 21:36
  What we should do about it now before it's too late, and that is making a call for the 28th amendment to the U.S.
• 21:43
  Constitution.
• 21:44
  Well, that's a it's a really good idea, and you print you do a great way of presenting it in in the book because our legal system has no framework for machines claiming personhood.
• 21:57
  And what if they claim it, but we don't give it to them.
• 22:00
  What is that gonna look like?
• 22:02
  Yeah, and yeah, here's a here's another simple way I like to uh describe AGI and the fact that there are no legal frameworks right now, especially in America.
• 22:12
  Other countries have them, but America has zero.
• 22:15
  There are three states in America that allow it.
• 22:18
  And I don't know if you remember the big beautiful bill that uh passed in 2025 in July.
• 22:23
  There was something that was put in there at the last moment that a lot of members of Congress didn't know it, and that was giving the authority to the federal government to make all laws around AI.
• 22:34
  And as a 10th amendment person and someone that believes that we have a constitutional republic, I was totally against it, and a lot of members of Congress were too, and they took that out.
• 22:44
  The reason why I think that's dangerous is because right now it may be great because your person is in the White House, but that's not always going to be the case.
• 22:51
  We just had four years where someone wanted to do the new green energy deal.
• 22:56
  He wanted to have a misinformation board to censor speech.
• 22:59
  That's not the entity that I want to have control over something that can control all of us.
• 23:05
  And so I I push back against that, and it did not it was not included in that big beautiful bill.
• 23:11
  But America has three states with laws on artificial intelligence.
• 23:14
  The EU has a law they passed in 2024, which talks about black boxes.
• 23:20
  That is something in today's artificial intelligence that exists sometimes, and maybe this gets to the point of a human consciousness, not being able to explain how an artificial intelligence gets to the conclusion that they did.
• 23:33
  And in Europe, the developer of that AI has to always be able to explain the outcome of that artificial intelligence, or they shut it down.
• 23:42
  Wow.
• 23:43
  And that that's called a black box when they can't describe exactly how it comes to a conclusion.
• 23:49
  America has nothing like that.
• 23:50
  But here's the simple way I like to describe it.
• 23:53
  If you have your next door neighbor, they sell their house, and let's say they sell it to an artificial general intelligence that has learned how to buy a house because it could, and it's hooked up to crypto, it purchases the house next to you through DocuSign.
• 24:08
  It provides whatever is needed for the title company, it buys the house.
• 24:11
  Nobody's ever going to live in there.
• 24:13
  We know that.
• 24:13
  The grass grows up to the windows.
• 24:15
  What are you going to do about it?
• 24:17
  What will happen?
• 24:19
  You you call the city, and the city says, What do you want us to do about it?
• 24:22
  Well, we'll come out and cut the grass.
• 24:24
  Well, this continues.
• 24:25
  Eventually, you you're going to sue something, but who are you suing?
• 24:28
  And then when it gets to the court, what is the judge going to determine?
• 24:32
  He has no framework.
• 24:35
  And so by writing a constitution uh amendment, the 28th amendment, which says humans are defined by unique DNA, and the constitutional rights are only for human beings.
• 24:48
  And then we allow the legislatures to write laws around those two things.
• 24:53
  Now let's take that same scenario, work it out back to the judge after a municipality had written a law where something like that would happen.
• 25:01
  Then the judge has the right to give that to the city.
• 25:04
  The city then can sell it, and that money goes somewhere in the city coffers.
• 25:09
  None of that exists right now.
• 25:10
  Nobody's thinking about it.
• 25:12
  Which is why your book is so important because it is so thought-provoking.
• 25:18
  The fight for the future of humanity in the case of the 28th Amendment.
• 25:22
  So this is a really good place for us to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors for America Outloud.news.
• 25:28
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• 25:34
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• 25:42
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• 26:02
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  Because there are so many great books and so many great documentaries, and so little time really to read and to watch.
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  We will be right back to continue our conversation with Booker Scott and his book, The Fight for Human The Future of Humanity, the Fight for the Future of Humanity, making the case for the 28th Amendment, a conversation about rights of robots.
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• 34:00
  Well, let me tell you a little bit more about today's guest, Booker Scott.
• 34:04
  Booker Scott is the host of Truth Be Told with Booker Scott on America Out Loud Talk Radio at 6 p.m.
• 34:11
  Eastern on Monday through Friday.
• 34:13
  He tackles current events, accountability, and forces shaping public trust.
• 34:18
  He began his broadcasting career in 1986, and by the age of 23, had become a morning personality and program director on multiple radio stations.
• 34:28
  That's a wowser to me.
• 34:30
  Over the top, he's worked on major radio groups, including iHeartRadio and Cumulus Media with air stops on in markets such as Nashville, Tampa, and Orlando.
• 34:41
  Booker Scott is the founder and president of Save Your Republic.org launched to support election integrity efforts by making poll workers access simple and local.
• 34:53
  Such a resume.
• 34:55
  So great to have you on the show, Booker.
• 34:57
  Such an honor to have you here.
• 34:59
  Um, I think that people are waking up to the reality of AI and how it's transforming our our society, particularly in areas of education and employment.
• 35:09
  A premise uh that your book questions if AI systems develop consciousness, can they be held morally responsible and held accountable?
• 35:18
  Can they or should they?
• 35:21
  I I don't think either one.
• 35:23
  I think that human beings with unique DNA, they should have all the rights.
• 35:29
  Now, I I would also say in the book, uh, I don't know if you remember this.
• 35:33
  I know that you read the book.
• 35:35
  There was in Japan in 2024, there was a robot that laid down on the job and refused to work overtime.
• 35:42
  And so that made a lot of people say, Well, wait a minute.
• 35:45
  If they're what what's going on here?
• 35:47
  They're not working overtime.
• 35:49
  And then that adds to the people that think, well, they need to have rights.
• 35:53
  You can't work more than 60 hours a week if you're a robot.
• 35:56
  And then what is a robot?
• 35:58
  Uh is it artificial general intelligence?
• 36:00
  Who determines that?
• 36:01
  You know, who determines whether something really has that pseudo-consciousness that we were talking about earlier.
• 36:08
  And uh so there are so so many questions that that and that's what we were left with after we did the book.
• 36:15
  It leaves you with a lot of questions.
• 36:17
  People are fearful of what is going on right now with artificial intelligence.
• 36:22
  Uh I mentioned national security uh earlier.
• 36:25
  Everything that we see going on in the world right now has to do with artificial intelligence and the 21st century technology arms race that we're currently in.
• 36:33
  That's what Greenland is about.
• 36:35
  It's a largely about what is happening in Venezuela in both of those places in the golden triangle and Central America, they are uh huge deposits of rare earth minerals that is needed.
• 36:47
  And right now, China is the only one that is capable of getting those rare earth minerals out of the ground in Greenland.
• 36:54
  We can't do it yet, but that's why Greenland is important, not just the shipping lanes and our NATO allies in Europe.
• 37:01
  Uh it's it also has to do with rare earth minerals because when we got to the end of this book, Dr.
• 37:06
  Timpenny, uh I was curious, and I asked myself the question.
• 37:11
  I was well, why?
• 37:13
  Why is it that uh almost every newscast has a story about artificial intelligence?
• 37:18
  Why is almost every commercial uh talking about artificial intelligence?
• 37:22
  Why is this?
• 37:23
  Why is national security about artificial intelligence?
• 37:26
  And I happen to be watching the BBC that night, and there were two stories in a row about artificial intelligence, and one of them was about the global economy.
• 37:34
  And I started doing some research on it, and I think I got my answer.
• 37:38
  By 2030, the global economy of artificial intelligence is anywhere from 15.7 to 22.3 trillion dollars, depending on where you read it.
• 37:50
  That is equivalent to India's and China's combined GDP.
• 37:56
  Combined GDP.
• 37:57
  And when you have that much money behind anything, that is why we are witnessing everything that we're witnessing.
• 38:04
  When Donald Trump made his first trip as the new president in his 47th presidency, his first trip was to Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Cotter.
• 38:13
  Why was that?
• 38:14
  Well, he got trillions of dollars in investment for data centers and for silicon um construction in Texas.
• 38:22
  Now, I don't know if you remember that story, but a lot of that money was invested into artificial intelligence because the race against China is to beat them because Taiwan has the semiconductors.
• 38:33
  So when you start looking at everything going on in the world and national security, you can tie it all back to this.
• 38:39
  And um, with that much money behind something, I have no doubt that eventually getting back to what we're talking about.
• 38:48
  One of these companies is going to figure out artificial general intelligence, and the case may be that they've already done that.
• 38:54
  Chat GPT, when they found out what it could do back in 2019, they didn't do anything with it for two years because they didn't know exactly what to do with it.
• 39:03
  And I would say that if someone had figured out how to create a pseudo consciousness in an entity like a robot, right now they may or may not be letting anybody know about it, because there are a lot of questions to be answered, and a lot of those questions we ask in this book.
• 39:20
  You know, a lot of people have said, including uh my friend and uh, I'm sure a colleague that you know too, Catherine Austin Fitz and various other people that have said, you know, what they are now allowing us as a general population to play with in terms of this um uh these large language models.
• 39:38
  We're just feeding additional information into something that has been built for, as you've said in your book for decades.
• 39:45
  And so, how much is really there?
• 39:47
  And we're just beginning to see it.
• 39:49
  We're just getting the cliff notes of the top of it.
• 39:52
  We're not getting what's been developed in secrecy for decades.
• 39:56
  You know, and most experts that I've listened to or otherwise, other people that.
• 40:00
  I've l I've interviewed on this show.
• 40:02
  Um, have similar feelings that you and I have about grave concerns about about the general intelligence.
• 40:09
  Only one person, and I'll name him because he was on my show, Mark Beckman, who wrote the book some future day, he was almost giddy when I was talking to him about the great things that are going to happen and are going to unfold with with artificial intelligence and all these things that are going to be forward thinking and seriously.
• 40:27
  And I like Mark a lot.
• 40:29
  And he was almost giddy about it.
• 40:31
  In fact, in his book, and I quote one of the things he said, we cannot let those who are afraid of AI drive the conversation for a couple of reasons.
• 40:42
  One reason they are simply wrong about the dangers.
• 40:47
  And I thought that, and I thought we talked about that when I had him on the show as a guest.
• 40:52
  Um, what is your opinion of that statement?
• 40:56
  Well, I think that's why we wrote the book, so that everybody uh could understand artificial intelligence.
• 41:03
  You have to start there because so many of you people are fearful of it.
• 41:06
  And I would disagree with that.
• 41:08
  I think that we have to be a part of this conversation.
• 41:11
  Right now, everything is uh being done by either governments or large corporations, and they're going to be big, big winners in this.
• 41:20
  Whoever gets to AGI first and has the best one, then they're going to be huge winners.
• 41:26
  You look at the investments uh and uh on the stock market right now when it comes to uh artificial intelligence, it's it's crazy.
• 41:33
  There's going to be a lot of winners, a lot of losers.
• 41:35
  But getting back to what he said, and and I hope you got this from reading the book, because we're not, I'm not anti-AI.
• 41:43
  I think that it does a lot of great things.
• 41:46
  I agree with you.
• 41:47
  It it far outweighs the fear that we should have.
• 41:51
  And I'm just saying we should protect human rights for down the road.
• 41:56
  I'm not saying that we shouldn't have laws to regulate it in some ways.
• 41:59
  I'm not saying that we shouldn't continue to develop it.
• 42:02
  And those that develop it say, well, if you regulate us and put guardrails up on us, then you're preventing us from doing the things that we need to do to make this thing work.
• 42:10
  Uh well, but we have to ask the questions.
• 42:12
  What about 10 to 20% unemployment?
• 42:15
  And who would be unemployed?
• 42:17
  You know, that's what the experts say 10 to 20 percent uh in a town of 100,000 workers, that's 20,000 people suddenly without a job.
• 42:25
  And if you look at who would be unemployed, more than likely it's people in classes that used to be protected, like women, you know, because they're already being replaced.
• 42:36
  Plumbers and HVAC and all of these things, they're not going to be replaced by uh uh AI.
• 42:41
  It's gonna be uh the the phones, you know, the the clerical things and the jobs typically done by women throughout history, so they could be the ones that are affected more than anyone else.
• 42:54
  There are other examples of biases in our book that we bring up, but we can't sit back and allow the the companies the and the corporations and the governments that have everything to gain to step over and blur the lines between us and whatever it becomes.
• 43:12
  And if we set out now to set the parameters that the constitutional rights that we are afforded, God given rights are only for those of us that have unique DNA, we're born to parents, then uh we're we're gonna be in trouble because like I said earlier, it it doesn't really matter if these entities get to a point where they actually have a consciousness because I don't think any of us are really ever going to know that answer truly, but if people assign it that, that's all that it takes.
• 43:45
  We have a supreme court justice now that won't define a woman, and I don't want to leave that crew up to defining what our future is and my children and my grandchildren's future.
• 43:58
  So right now is the time to make a stand.
• 44:00
  Typically, it takes five to six years to pass uh constitutional amendment.
• 44:04
  It's not easy.
• 44:06
  It's uh it's tough to to get one passed.
• 44:08
  Usually it passes quick when there's chaos, and usually and sometimes it takes 122 years.
• 44:15
  I think that's the longest amendment ever was 122 years.
• 44:19
  But I think it's something that we should have a conversation about because right now we're being left out of the conversation.
• 44:26
  We are leaving it as Mark said, we're leaving it to those that have the most to gain when humanity has the most to lose, and we're staying out of the conversation.
• 44:35
  Oh, I think that's so well said that we're not part of the conversation.
• 44:39
  We are we are the with the end user, but we're not part of the develop of input into any of these conversations.
• 44:45
  You know, in chapter nine of your book, The Fight for the Future of Humanity, you list a long list of scenarios about integrating AI-driven robots into society, such as are they more real and better than human teachers?
• 45:00
  Do sentient machines deserve protection from exploitation?
• 45:04
  Who should oversee digital workers, HR or IT, which I thought that was just an incredible question?
• 45:12
  And then after this section, you make a provocative statement.
• 45:16
  How we approach robot rights will shape the course of history and in action grows by the day.
• 45:24
  Expound on that for us a little bit.
• 45:26
  Well, and uh, it's really what I was just talking about.
• 45:29
  We don't know where this is going.
• 45:31
  Right.
• 45:32
  None of us know where this is going.
• 45:34
  No one can answer.
• 45:35
  Do the research.
• 45:36
  We did the experts can't agree on anything, and if they don't know where it's going, why are we going to allow it to happen without involvement?
• 45:46
  And I, you know, I just spent a few minutes talking about that.
• 45:49
  We can't allow that for humanity, for society.
• 45:53
  What does that say about us if we allow that to happen?
• 45:56
  We don't know.
• 45:57
  We don't know if it's going to be IT or HR when it comes to robots and how they work.
• 46:02
  There's an example in the book, um, another law that's been passed by South Korea.
• 46:07
  It has to do with the uh robots that are in assisted livings that help older people that they put these babies in their hands, they're robots.
• 46:16
  Well, what has happened is these older people have they've they get a uh uh uh they're they're connected with these robots, and they they don't want to lose them.
• 46:27
  Well, guess what happens?
• 46:28
  At a point, they have to be reprogrammed, and it's been very detrimental to these older people that get used to this little baby robot that they have, the only thing they have to visit them every day, and then they're taken out of their arms and replaced with something else that they have to start all over with.
• 46:44
  That's South Korea's law.
• 46:46
  And uh we're we're not doing those things.
• 46:49
  We're not we're not thinking about those things because we know that robots are gonna be used like that, they're being used right now.
• 46:55
  I don't think they're being used like that in America.
• 46:57
  The only time I can remember a robot actually doing anything for me was bringing towels for me at a hotel.
• 47:03
  I don't know if you've ever stayed at a hotel where they do that.
• 47:05
  My daughter had a great time with that.
• 47:07
  She kept calling the front desk, having them bring more towels.
• 47:10
  We had 20 towels before it was over with quit.
• 47:13
  We don't need any more towels, which she thought it was great.
• 47:15
  The robot was coming.
• 47:16
  But we know robots are gonna do things like that.
• 47:20
  It's close, it's almost here if it's not already being done.
• 47:24
  And uh, you know, it like I said, the Japan robot laid down it, decided it wasn't going to work overtime.
• 47:31
  Going back to Martin Rothblatt in chapter six of the book, he thinks robots have to have rights or they will become nothing more than a slave class.
• 47:39
  Going back to what he said to me at the end of our lunch, they will have every emotion you have, they will feel they will hurt, they will love, and when they do, they need rights.
• 47:49
  Wow.
• 47:50
  And then you you have to ask, well, I I think I think differently.
• 47:55
  I think I have a soul, but really, what is the difference?
• 47:59
  Are we nothing more than neurons that connect to do math computations from and to create that knowledge and wisdom of don't touch the hot stove?
• 48:10
  Or how different are we?
• 48:13
  And and that's the and and we both are friends with Dr.
• 48:16
  Irene Maverickakis, and she gave a talk.
• 48:18
  I don't know if you saw it at uh Patrick Henry Henry College back last the end of last summer or the fall, and she was talking about some of this and really gave a great scenario.
• 48:29
  I wish I thought about it before her and put it in the book.
• 48:32
  What if AI had a conversation with a human being?
• 48:36
  And how can you say that you protect rights so much when you have murder?
• 48:42
  You have abortion.
• 48:44
  What would that conversation be like with this entity that also has all the emotions and love and hurt all those feelings that we have, but yet can't understand how we can hurt someone else?
• 48:57
  Wow.
• 48:58
  That's that's that just gave me chills, just thinking about that.
• 49:03
  That really did.
• 49:04
  And so, you know, I've listened to long long form podcasts interviews with Tristan Harris about AI ethics and about Mo Guadat, the chief uh the former chief business officer from Google X warning about an AI dystopian future.
• 49:20
  And I've talked, I've listened to Yeshua Benji Bengio, the godfather of AI, who also talking about the dangers of a genetic AI, killer robots, and cybercrime.
• 49:33
  You know, why is it that these people and yourself and your book and other people are not really taking these things seriously?
• 49:40
  And why is it that America really is not uh even attempting it's doesn't seem like to put up any guardrails for this transformation into the next decade?
• 49:50
  I was would say the next century, but seriously, it's just coming so fast, it's gonna be in the next decade.
• 49:57
  Why does it seem like nobody's paying attention to this?
• 50:00
  Well, I think those people that you mentioned, they are very focused on what they are focused on because it will because of what it brings them.
• 50:11
  It's going to bring them wealth, notoriety, uh, you know, it's going to feed their ego, all of those things that you know humans love.
• 50:20
  But at what risk, at what cost to humanity, to society?
• 50:25
  You know, we talked about unemployment, you know, universal um uh uh income is something that is talked about frequently by some of those people you just mentioned.
• 50:34
  The universal basic income.
• 50:36
  You have unemployment.
• 50:37
  Well, we'll just give you money.
• 50:38
  And you talked about the utopia.
• 50:40
  That's socialism.
• 50:41
  Who's giving the money to the people and people without um the cause, a purpose, whether you're a medical doctor or uh a radio broadcaster, whatever it is.
• 50:53
  Well, what then?
• 50:54
  And I've heard Elon Musk talk about this.
• 50:56
  Well, you can do the things that you want to do.
• 50:59
  Well, don't we need that in our lives?
• 51:02
  Don't we need that purpose?
• 51:04
  What greater purpose uh would there be for us if they just gave us universal basic income and and we have uh you know, we've lost so much critical thinking ability that we don't even have the purpose to have our careers because we've been replaced.
• 51:21
  Well, remember at at the uh at the Davos conference recently, Larry Fink, who's head of black was interviewing Elon Musk and asked and asked the question well, what about the sense of purpose?
• 51:32
  You know, a purpose, uh, particularly in men, you know.
• 51:35
  But everybody as a as humanity needs to feel when they get up in the morning, they have a purpose for living and a purpose for do.
• 51:42
  And Elon's answer was well, we're not the system isn't perfect.
• 51:47
  And I thought that was such a lame answer, but it tells you that nobody's really thinking about that.
• 51:55
  It is a lame answer.
• 51:56
  And when you look at like the Trump administration right now, I think they're doing great things when it comes to artificial intelligence.
• 52:03
  They see it as the 21st century arms race, and it's a good thing they do, because if they didn't, I know China does.
• 52:10
  And so we better be in that game in that fight.
• 52:13
  But they're also being reckless because they're not protecting purpose of humans, they are not protecting a critical thinking in human beings.
• 52:23
  They are only seeing it from that lens.
• 52:26
  They're not considering the things that our book uh brings up.
• 52:29
  And well, our book is in the hands of a couple of people in Congress, and I hope they read it and pass it along.
• 52:35
  And I would love for the first lady Melania Trump to get this book because I think she could be one that would understand it, you know, should the take it down law that uh she um did in 2025, which has a little bit to do with artificial intelligence, but more the internet.
• 52:51
  If you photoshop someone's picture and you have 48 hours to bring it down, or you're in trouble, you go to prison.
• 52:57
  You know, and and she talked about the internet and artificial intelligence being the candy of the future when she made remarks about that take it down law.
• 53:06
  I think she could be a big champion of something like this to at least have people to consider the things that we ask you to consider in this book, because that's really what this book is for, is to get you to understand.
• 53:18
  And you you mentioned it at the very top of the hour that it's easy to get through.
• 53:22
  That was our focus the entire time.
• 53:24
  With let's I want this to be a plane ride book to read.
• 53:29
  If you're flying from the east coast to the west coast in a round trip, that book is done.
• 53:34
  And you have an understanding of what artificial intelligence is, you have an understanding of what the experts say is coming, which is artificial general intelligence, and then you have the 28th amendment to the U.S.
• 53:44
  Constitution, a way to possibly solve some of these problems that we have and we should see coming.
• 53:51
  Well, we just have a couple of minutes left, Booker.
• 53:53
  There's two things.
• 53:54
  I want you to give a short synopsis of why we need the 28th amendment, and then what is the take-home message about AI and about your book, The Fight for the Future of Humanity?
• 54:06
  The 28th Amendment defines a human being.
• 54:10
  I I'm a constitutional.
• 54:15
  I love Montesquieu.
• 54:16
  I love where those words were inspired in the Declaration of Independence.
• 54:21
  And they were given by God to human beings.
• 54:28
  That's the way this country has been for 250 years.
• 54:31
  That's the way this world has been for much longer than that.
• 54:35
  And we are at the precipice.
• 54:38
  We're at the dawn of a technology explosion that does nothing to protect those human rights.
• 54:45
  No one wants to talk about human rights when it comes to artificial intelligence.
• 54:50
  Why not?
• 54:51
  If we don't, if we don't, none of us can really say what may happen.
• 54:57
  We can speculate about the things that probably will, and a lot of them will come.
• 55:02
  We have people marrying Chat GPT, if that's any indication.
• 55:07
  If they assign human consciousness to these entities, and the line blurs, and we have a Supreme Court justice that believes that they can't define a woman.
• 55:21
  For us, so it takes a ground swell of support to make this 28th amendment get to where it needs to be, and that would be added to the U.S.
• 55:31
  Constitution to protect and preserve human rights rights given to God for each one of us as individuals, not groups.
• 55:40
  And the the takeaway from the book is I I just want you to read it so that you understand a guy because most people it's it's so far over their head.
• 55:52
  My mother's 88.
• 55:53
  She read it twice and has a completely different understanding now because it is easy to understand.
• 55:57
  We wanted to write every week when uh Kathleen Goebb wrote this with me.
• 56:01
  I brought her along um a little bit later in the process because she's a great technical writer, four master's degree, theology, law, all of those.
• 56:09
  And um, we would uh meet and and talk for an hour every week on the phone.
• 56:14
  And that was always the concentration.
• 56:16
  We got to keep it simple.
• 56:17
  Don't get in the weeds, make it pee make it where people can understand what this is, where it's going, and what we can do about it.
• 56:25
  Very good.
• 56:26
  Well, Booker, thank you so much for writing this.
• 56:29
  And it needs to get into the hands of everybody because it's thought provoking, as I've said multiple times.
• 56:34
  It really makes you think about scenarios that the general public isn't thinking when they're playing with their chat GPT or their bra.
• 56:41
  So I want to thank you for being on our show today, and I want to thank everybody else that's joined us here on the 10 penny files.
• 56:47
  It's Monday through Friday at 3 p.m.
• 56:49
  Eastern.
• 56:50
  With that, I will close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:53
  I close all of my podcasts with, whether it is live or prerecorded, which is Romans 12, 12.
• 56:58
  Rejoice in hope, be patient in trouble and be persistent in prayer.
• 57:03
  Remember to lean into God and trust him, he will never let you down.
• 57:06
  You can find more about me and also watch these podcasts at DR10Petty.com.
• 57:11
  And you can find on our substacks, which is DR10Penny.com.
• 57:16
  We also set up a bookstore at bookstore.com so that all of these authors' books can be found in one place, or you can go to Bookers uh Bookers uh and go directly from Amazon and buy it directly from Amazon.
• 57:30
  So I want to thank you everybody for being here today.
• 57:33
  We'll see you tomorrow or the next time on the 10 penny files.
• 57:37
  Have a great day, everybody.
• 57:38
  Goodbye, and God bless.