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One Leg Up With Hoop1Video's Mitch Kaufman and Lou Terminello On The Art of Game Film · OneLegUpAlex Media

0:02
Here's your host, Alex Derrek. All right, Well, before we get
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to our big guest on Terminilo's take, I gotta say, Lou, I
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don't think you thought six years you ago, you'd be talking about an anniversary
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we had for you six years ago today, April ninth. You know what,
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I forgot all about it until you sent that picture for my anniversary from
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my retirement party. Got six year anniversary. Time does fly, that's for
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sure. But here we are, six years later, doing a podcast every
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day, every week, it seems like every day sometimes because we always talking.
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So Lou, tell us who our next big guest is following the NCAA
0:39
tournament and Yukon's big win to repeat tu Kon, as The New York Post
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says, tell us, who's on the line with us today and on our
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vlog with us today? Well, the guy that we're gonna be talking to
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today I met forty three years ago, back in June, on June first,
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nineteen eighty one. Do you tell you talked about all this analytics and
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all his video scouting. You're looking at the man who started it. He
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got the ball rolling, and he's a great friend. He's a he's creative,
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he had vision and he's been successful, and God bless him. Mitch
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Kaufman, my dear dear friend, Welcome to Alex and Bos podcast. We
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appreciate it. This is so cool, This is so so cool. I'm
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so happy out you are video guys from what I've heard, Mitch, so
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tell us about breaking down film through the tournament. What exactly role did you
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play? Was it for all the teams of the tournament? Tell us about
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your role breaking down the film for these guys. Well, we can go
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before that if you want. Breaking down the film was about halfway through.
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First we had to teach him how to film the games on video instead of
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eight millimeters or sixteen millimeter, because that took three days to get back from
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the process and didn't do anybody any good. Plus you couldn't record TV shows
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or for a sixteen milimeter camera. It happened to be at the right place
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at the right time. I'll only say it once or twice, but the
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University of Michigan bought bou Chembeckler a video reel to reel tape recorder in nineteen
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sixty eight. If you've ever seen an audio reel to real tape recorder,
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you know what I'm talking about, because most people don't know what a video
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reel to real tape recorder is. They bought him that in nineteen sixty eight
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because he wanted to get the practices and the games at his house as soon
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as possible, and back then the only way to do it was to send
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it out to a Kodak player. I've been waiting four days. So when
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videotape was invented, Don Cannum, the athletic director at Michigan, allowed Bo
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to get this brand new high Stratton video system. Nineteen seventy two, Sony
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upgrades the black and white version to a color version. Both says I want
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that and Michigan being so cheap, instead of throwing out the old black and
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white VTR said hey, let's give it to basketball, see if they can
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figure it out. Knock knock. A year later, Ivey become the basketball
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manager at Michigan. And I credit my both my grandfathers for buying me real
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to real audio tape recorders when I was four years old that I could take
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apart and put together and know exactly how they work and how to threat them.
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So when it came to video, I was not a challenge for me,
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and I find myself at the age of seventeen filming Michigan basketball practices endgames.
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So you kicked out right as you got kicked off right as a freshman,
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you kicked out all of this off as a faid. There were only
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two managers in those days. There was a freshman manager and two varsity managers.
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But they threw on me so they could be on the floor helping the
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coaches filming the practices. Of course I was gung ho and said, yeah,
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I'll do it now. Mitchell lyintroduced some filming at the ice for the
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athletic sport when you were at Fort Lee High School. No, there was
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no film then. I was just manager of four sports. Okay, I
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was mister stats back then. Okay, Okay, So seventeen year old Mitches
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working for Michigan basketball, and of course I got to get into the you
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know what was it, the Fab five. We got to talk about that
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a little later on. But if you want to ask about filming as a
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seventeen year old, how quick were you with the turnaround? Because they wanted
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it pretty quickly right, well, we had. The crazy part was they
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were the only thing you could play it back on was an eight inch black
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and white TV because it was there was no RF outputs to Channel three back
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in those days. It was like a thirty two pin connector to a special
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TV. So we had the unit, which weighed about seventy pounds, on
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a cart with a little black and ITV on top of the car, and
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we would take the cart from where we shot and go in the elevator and
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bring it down to the locker room after the game so they could see it
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and after practices. So the turnaround was amazingly simple, and there was no
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other school in the world doing it. And now here comes the interesting part.
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The Detroit Pistons have their training camp at Pryce Arena. That year,
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they had just fired their head coach Ray Scott and replaced them with a gentleman
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I had never heard of, called Herb Brown, with their brand new first
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year trainer Mike Abdenauer. Both walk over to me on the concourse while I'm
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filming practice and say, what the effort you doing over there? They had
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never seen anybody film, They have never seen anyone videotape a basketball game and
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be able to watch it back. Immediately they said, hey, we're playing
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in Toledo against the Buffalo Braves tomorrow night. Can you come with us?
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I said, this is this is not me. You got to speak to
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coach or which they did, and he said fine. And turns out I
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videotaped the first ever real to real video NBA preseason game back in nineteen seventy
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five or six, the Buffalo Braves against the Detroit Pistons. Crazy stuff,
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Alex, how's that for a little bit of history? Crazy stuff? I
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love history. This is this is five years This is all five years before
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VHS or Sony Beta, right, so really nobody, nobody was using it.
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So Mitch, did that get a lot? Let's see you you filmed
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an NBA game in a preseason, no publicity. Four years later I graduate.
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Three years later, I graduated Michigan. I go to UMass to get
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a master's in science and sports management, and part of the degree is you
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have to internship with a team. So I had a choice. I made
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friends with the Pistons. Obviously, gentleman by the name of Harry Hutt was
7:23
in charge over there, and he wanted me to come intern with him.
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But after four years of Michigan winters, I asked my father if he knew
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anybody out east, and he knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who
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knew Charlie Thiochis, who was general manager of the New Jersey Nets. So
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I come into intern from you Mass with the nets and a long story short,
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I started in May seventy nine and they had to kick me out about
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forty years later. And that's where I met a youngster named lou Terminello.
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I heard right, That's when I met a youngster named lou Terminella. Well,
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Charlie Theo who taught us things we never knew because we were not salesman
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at the time. All right, yeah, no, it's what Mitch has
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done. Uh is been spectacular. He was in sales. Uh he left
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sales. We won't go into that story, but that was the best thing
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that ever happened to Mitch Coffin. And I remember the day that you left
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sales. And like I said in the opening, he's a visionary. He's
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years ahead of his time. And when you left, when you left the
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nets, from the sales point of view, when became the next video guy,
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how did how did it's snowball? Right after that, when we beat
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the sixers. In nineteen eighty four, Correct Sports Illustrated wrote an article on
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it. There's two things. There's two things. The first thing was the
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Princeton Summer League. Thirteen eighty two or three started the Princeton Summer League because
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they were too cheap to fly out for the California Summer League, so they
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put together New York, New Jersey, Washington, Philly for a week at
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Pete Carroll's house, and then it grew and we added Boston in Atlanta.
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So I really started meeting the teams because I was videotaping these Summer League games,
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and Bob McKinnon, God bless him, told me to charge every team
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one hundred dollars a game and sell as many as you can. One of
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the days, David Stern and Daryl Garrettson come down to watch. They too,
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like Herb Brand and Mike Abden. I had never seen anyone, apparently
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videotaping with a real to real video. Well we were doing. We were
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doing three quarter inch back with the nets before vcrb it before VHS, but
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he had never seen the immediate turnaround time, and both their eyes lit up.
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Daryl wanted me to zoom out and whenever I heard a whistle, zoom
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in on the referee that made the call so he could see the hand gestures.
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So all of a sudden, I'm working. I'm teaching the league how
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video is going to help them do their job better. So I became friendly
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with them, and then I was a gentleman that was lose. In turn,
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Matt Merchant opened up a satellite store and told me, you know,
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Mitch, we can you can record every NBA game if you buy enough satellite
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dishes. They're all up there. This is twelve years before DirecTV. So
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David Stern found that out and said, I got to put you in front
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of the General Managers committee so you can get some revenue and buy teams so
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I can see the games. I don't really care if the teams can see
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the games, but he wanted to see. Billy Amba used to like throw
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punches a lot in those days. Well, Mitch, not to cut you
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off, but said that that Bill Ambert through punches and no days you were.
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You were the guy that basically gave the video evidence that got these guys
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suspended during altercations. Yes, Dad, and we drove tapes to his house
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and the NBA was known around all sports as being the team that suspended players
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quicker than other teams because I was bringing VHS tapes to David's house that night.
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Don't tell the Knicks Alex the famous Miami Nick's brawl in the in the
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playoff game where Van Gundy is holding on a Lonzo Morning's leg. All that
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all the video and Mitch jump into wherever you want to all at video evidence
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came out of Hoop one Video Mitch's company. Mitch, I got to answer
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this, what what did what did you catch that TV did not catch?
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How did you differ yourself from what the TV was showing us? I was
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just looking frame by frame and they weren't. And in the rules those days,
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it was very simple. If you crossed that line coming off the bench,
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you was suspended. And that's that's what they wanted enough. That's where
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I helped come in. You the angles at the bench. So I would
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just watch and what I would be at the mercy of the TV replays,
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but I'd be live going through the TV replace frame by a frame with the
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commissioner on the phone asking me what am I seeing? Kind of thing?
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Wow? So where they would see it so fast where the audience see it
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so fast you were able to slow it down with one video. Well it
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was after the fact. All this was after the game. Okay, nothing,
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None of this was going on during the game. We were greater at
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hindsight, but we were the first they knew the night of. They had
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in their hands the night of the evidence, which which technology just didn't allow
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the other leagues to do. And so you're you're young being sorry, go
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ahead, sorry, you're young being introduced to the general manager's committee. I
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mean, tell us what that was like. Were you a little nervous,
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were you, like, you know, I can't believe on here right now,
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very nervous because sitting to the left of me is Jerry West. Yeah.
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No, obviously that that would be into me. Michaefeld made stood up
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for me. I had about four or five, all the all the general
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managers that knew me from the Princeton Summer League stood up on my behalf and
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said he can do it, let's give him a shot, and stuff like
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that. But even now I'm just thinking, going back, the reason that
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I met even more coaches were because the nets stunk so much that we kept
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firing coaches who got jobs with other teams, and I was the only video
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person on any team back then, so they would call me, Mitch,
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did you happen to catch that game on USA Network last night? Can you
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do us a favor? Make a copy and send it to us? And
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by the way, enclose a bill. So I had a legion of former
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NETS coaches throughout the league that also helped spread the word. Once I did
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open Hoop one video, I had what amount of customers coming? No team
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had a video guy until about nineteen eighty seven, so for the first two
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years we were just sending the tapes to the assistant coaches who you know it
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comes from. I got a working machine. You know what comes to mind
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as I'm hearing this is from my generation was the run ar Test Metaworld piece
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incident in did you that's right? Were you able to get on that and
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send the league tapes on that too? That was a few nights too,
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But by then they had NBA Entertainment running, so I wasn't their only source.
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But from about nineteen eighty five, I don't know what year that was,
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but I think from about nineteen eighty five to at least two thousand and
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three. I was their only source. They didn't have the headquarters in Secaucus
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yet, but every team wanted tapes waiting for them, even though they didn't
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have a video guy. When they checked into a hotel at two o'clock in
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the morning of the next three opponents games. The best net you got to
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film was well, Jason, Yeah, Jason changed everything. Jason changed everything.
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Was a great competitor. Drawsen gets an asterisk, Ricky Mchorn gets an
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asteriss for different reasons. Now you're making me think about the fun part of
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it. When you're when you're approached to do to sell all your product,
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I mean, how did you feel like, all right, this is worth
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it? How did you start the economic part of this, because that's a
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big part of your comport video as well. The way it was help being
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you economically right, Well, I bought enough equipment and I got enough teams
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to cover the costs. You make no money your first few years. I
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love pretures you make no money your first few years, just like any other
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business. And eventually I started getting some college customers too. Well, that
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was the next big thing, right right, Mitchell, And then the college
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the college attraction ended up being so they were villing over in eighty five to
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talk about me. Four or five college coaches have written me about me in
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their books that they wouldn't have won if I if they didn't have an availability
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for tape. It's not that I helped them win, but I gave them
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an availability of tape to allow them to when that they may not would have
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happened with that me. But Alex, if Mitch didn't give Steve Fisher tape
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in eighty nine, Seahull probably would have one national championship to their name in
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regulation going away. Probably. Yeah, No, that's Mitch. One question
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I had well on that, Mitchell, I was gonna ask you, and
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I was talking a little about this in our prep meeting. I was seeing
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myself, all right, So if you're managing multiple teams, is it not
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a convict of interest? You're sending defense of one team while covering, you
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know, something of another team, Like how did you balance that out?
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So I'm in eighty six seven Detroit and Chicago were playing each other. I'm
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breaking down Chicago, and my fiance Maurice is breaking down Detroit and they and
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then one of us is breaking down Atlanta. From Mike Fritello. Well,
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both of us sharing it, and they kind of flew both of us out
18:04
for the playoffs that year. And she was working in the Pistons. She
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was telling the Pistons how to set up their video room, and I was
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telling either the Bulls or the Hawks how to set up their video room.
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It's crazy. The first video guys are now either head coaches or general managers
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or agents or they they they are their generation, that the generation keeping the
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NBA and business this year. Well, Eric Spolser was a video guy,
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right Bolster and Jeff Welkman my too claim to fame. But Rick Patino sent
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Jeff Van Gundy and Stu Jackson down for me to teach them how to edit.
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In those days, editing was having two VCRs and we did what we
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called deck to deck editing. So that's how you could after the fact,
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create an offense only take created defense only tape. And referring back to that
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Sports Illustrated article in eighty four when Stan Albeck said, Mitch, can you
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make individual player tapes so our guys can take home and study their opponent.
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So he said, we in those days you played your opponent six times in
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the regular season, right, So we took all six of those games and
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we made one big offense defense tape for the coaching staff to look at.
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And then every time, say one of the sixers took a shot in any
19:33
of the six games, that got put on his own tape. So we
19:38
built a twenty minute tape on each player every shot he took against us in
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the regular season, which made our players realize that there are sometimes they don't
19:52
have to run around three screens. They know that they're waiting for him to
19:56
get picked off by one of those guys, so he just cuts diagonally across
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because he knows where the guy's ending up and he can now prevent the past
20:04
from happening and screw the player. And that was done on blackboards prior to
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that, because it took a week to make each of these tapes, almost
20:18
back then before digital videography. But the concept was that the players are now
20:25
going home and studying their opponents, and that that was stand alback, who
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was a great guy. The coaching the coaching branches that I've been lucky enough
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to have dinner with and have them tell me what they want, what they're
20:44
looking for, and can I figure out a way to make it happen.
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So, Mitch, you talk about analytics, don't you think that you started
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analytics with your with your video scouting. You provide them with data. I
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was one of the Jordan Cone started it with math. He's the one that
21:04
actually assigned percentages to different situations. But no one would have had a footage
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to dissect the games. Somebody was going to but I happened to be the
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one that came along so they could they could get the footage right. But
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I mean, I think of me as the librarian. I'm not the analytics
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guy, right, I'm more of the librarian. But look what it's turned
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into. Since technology allowed you to digitize video, since technology allowed you to
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aggregate Excel file data in lifetime, and now you can overlay those two things
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together in editing systems and in a timeline and have a game logged for you
21:53
when it ends. It's pretty cool. And now it's all now AI is
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doing that. I'm talking to some people, but eventually they'll get it to
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work, and it's gonna work really good. Mitch. Today's world is all
22:07
about getting those clips very instantly. So how do you keep up with that
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kind of world? Of getting these teams the clips instantly, even maybe for
22:17
their social media, I don't know, does that ever play a role or
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no, This is I'm strictly My sourcing is strictly is for non public distribution.
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My video is strictly for the coaching staff and the internal team staff.
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But they need see the old joke is the bus doesn't wait for the video
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guys, So the game, they have to have their next five opponents games
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that were played at the same time they played tonight on their laptops and that's
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what they get from me. Okay, So now they go on the bus
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and each assistant coach gets tonight's they're in charge of the scout, so you
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get the Minnesota game, get the Indiana game, you get the owner and
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then they'll go through and they'll flag plays to start the creation of the video.
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So because of Mitch Kaufman, by practice the next morning, they're already
23:14
practicing their drills because you got them the footage they needed. But the coaching
23:18
staff is done by the plane lands and can take the night off instead of
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having a stay up all night till six am making this tape that they want
23:26
to show the team in the morning. Well that's done now on the before
23:30
the plane lands, and now it gets distributed to the players' iPads and bones.
23:37
Well that's that's a big pray, big difference since you started obviously where
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you had all those you know, he had all those tapes and cat to
23:45
say, everybody had to wait for FedEx Saturday game. FedEx is closed Sunday.
23:52
I ship it Monday. They get it Tuesday and they're happy. So
23:56
they're getting a Saturday game Tuesday and they're ecstatic. They're not like that any
24:00
right, so so much. I know that you you also do, uh
24:07
your work with the NHL for many years Jerry Daily, Oh that's right,
24:14
yes, when he went to the Devils. Yeah, some NFL rings,
24:21
Yes, you do have crazy I have. I have no ring. I
24:25
have asked. I would trade down tell my happy people, but I would,
24:30
yeah, tell us about the craziness of selection Sunday. Wait. That
24:37
used to be. I was used to be. I was the only accountant
24:41
and it was texting, so tom Izou would call an hour before to get
24:47
put on hold. I only had three phone lines. Yeah, but it
24:53
started with Larry Brown and John callup Parry sort of with alman Al Menendez in
25:02
nineteen eighty five, I recorded three four hundred games just off cable TV,
25:07
and that's got me three machines. And he Al said, hey, Mitch,
25:15
categorize on index cards by team, so I know when we have prospects
25:19
which tape to look at it that so while I'm watching the bids night,
25:25
I'm looking at three hundred tapes on my floor and two hundred index cards on
25:29
my bed. And I had those days what was called the NCAA BlackBook which
25:34
had the address and phone number of every college in the country, every athletic
25:41
department, by sport. So I said, I was a locker called Larry
25:45
Brown, and I leave a message because Larry had just left us for Kansas.
25:53
And I said, by the way, you're playing Lamar in the first
25:57
round, and I have these ten games games. Let me know if you
26:00
want. Ten minutes later, my phone rings. This was my bedroom.
26:04
Ten minutes later, my phone rings, are you Mitch? Yeah, Hi,
26:08
this is I'm calling from Kansas. Coach Brown said to call you.
26:12
I'm his grad assistant, John Calipari. You have what you can get what
26:19
how quickly can you put it on a plane. I don't want to wait
26:22
till FedEx can you put it on a plane. And that's kind of how
26:29
one video got started. I made a few more phone calls and everybody wanted
26:34
it, so Mitch, sometimes on Selection Sunday you had to well, we
26:40
used to buy fifteen people, and all those fifteen people are now running NBA
26:45
Entertainment ironically. But the cooler part was all the schools within five hours would
26:53
drive to the East Rutherford practice facility. Jeff Ruland used to come with a
27:00
box of cigards, but you had to wait for two hours for your tapes
27:03
to dump right right, Oh my god, yeah, this is amazing.
27:07
So we had ten to fifteen. Connecticut sent five people. The Philadelphia people
27:14
after a while got smart and all big five came in one car. Mitch,
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I gotta ask you this when you when you see a game on TV,
27:26
or even if you're there and you're like, all right, these guys
27:30
are following my tapes, how does that make you feel like you're making a
27:33
difference on the court right now from behind the scenes. It's a nice feeling.
27:41
It's a nice feeling. The world doesn't know, but I know that's
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that's that's good enough. The world will know because we're putting this on a
27:47
podcast. Wow, no, Mitch, Well it didn't me. They didn't
27:51
know. They didn't know to hate me back then when their team lost.
27:55
Well, the thing is that Mitch and I have talked about this, and
27:59
recently we talked about this a couple of years ago. Obviously, Mitch Kaufman
28:04
should be considered, not should be considered, that he should be in the
28:07
Basketball Hall of Fame. I mean he should be. He helped change the
28:11
game, and that that is a quality that is qual of fame worthy.
28:19
The thing is, Mitch, all these years later, how and with all
28:23
the updated technology, you're still thriving in you as a hoop won How you
28:30
doing that? It's great. I used to think it was my good looks.
28:33
Honestly, I do it better than everybody else. I know what coaches
28:41
want. I keep them happy. I faster, I'm working with great it
28:45
people. I'm working with great people who record the games for me. But
28:49
the truth of the matter is we increased our upload engines. So now after
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I push stop seventeen seconds later, this magical thing al goreated called the cloud.
29:02
I'm not FedEx in games anymore. Right, That's the cool part before
29:07
the first commercial is over, they go they have that quarter, and their
29:12
scout has it, and they have it in the video room, and I'm
29:17
on some owner's phones. Of course, we had to start streaming during the
29:21
pandemic because people couldn't go to the games. So in addition to me having
29:26
files that they download into the editing system, now everything I have is streaming
29:33
for everyone in the organization, which is pretty cool too. That's why they
29:38
liked me. Of course, every six months, everybody else is obsolete,
29:41
and I got some good some good guys with me. Plus they trust you,
29:48
plus my good looks, and of course, of course those good looks,
29:52
that's for sure. Well, I do have that. I do have
29:56
a sense of they do trust me, sure, no that, and uh,
30:00
you do trust me not to let them down. They know that,
30:07
you know, Lou and Mitch, you know five days ahead you're gonna hate
30:11
me five nights a year and ahead because of the weather in Jersey knocking out
30:15
my signal. Don't hold it against me. My indoctrination to take gave you
30:22
know. Gaming game film was actually a queen's college because I would actually call
30:29
the games over the game film they were utilizing for a review that next night,
30:33
so that was kind of interesting. But I got to ask you,
30:34
I don't know if you consider them a competitor. But the only game film
30:38
and tapics it was tape Exchange. I don't know if you know about them,
30:41
or if you work with them at all, or if they're a competitor,
30:44
Like that's the that's the only one up until now that I know of
30:47
in the college Well, no, there are a lot of them out there,
30:51
but they're allowed to intentionally not give the best picture quality. They're allowed
30:57
within their rules to not have to in the game immediately, and people would
31:03
just want In addition, it's not one or the other. I mean,
31:08
there's a Burger King, there's a McDonald's, and there's a Palm Steakhouse.
31:14
Sometimes you want, you want, but the world is big enough for everybody.
31:19
Are there any schools used to be any excuse me? Are there any
31:25
schools you're not covering that right now that you want to cover? Oh?
31:27
Yeah, Oh, there's there's plenty of schools that are using I'm less in
31:32
the college world than I used to because of the analytic companies, but that's
31:38
okay. I still have enough. I still have the smartest schools are still
31:45
using. And you say you have all, then you're still doing the NHL.
31:51
Correct, But I have every I I every NHL and every NBA team
31:55
knock knock m football right, all of CBS sports. CBS gets six thousand
32:04
college basketball games in the NFL, and golf and a caketball even more than
32:13
I thought that. Well, they they had other companies they were dealing with
32:17
for different sports, and they said, michign you do all of this and
32:22
I said, sure, why not? And of course that's because of Bill
32:25
Raftery. There's a lot of international players who have achieved great success in the
32:32
NBA. Again, correct, correct me if I'm wrong. But weren't you
32:37
also the first guy to get international tapes to these teams? Give them?
32:44
I had a guy that Larry Miller me Larry Harris, son of del was
32:52
general manager of Milwaukee before Golden State. Possibly he introduced me to the hoop
32:59
one of your Europe okay, and so the who he there was a guy
33:04
in Europe that three thousand Europe games. So he used to come visit me
33:09
with eight suitcases of VHS tapes because it was cheaper for him to fly,
33:16
right, right, to ship them to me right right, and then I
33:22
had to buy converters from the European format to turn them into the United States
33:27
format. But yes, we we had a thousand European games again before others.
33:37
Now there are one hundred options. But back then, I was again
33:46
the only accountant in town for a while. And that's a good thing.
33:51
That's that's a that's a great thing. So when on the end up in
33:54
the morning, get to work, they started, Mitchell, Well, I
33:57
see that's weird. See that I had to always have everything finished when the
34:04
coaches woke up at six am and the game, the West Coast games don't
34:09
until one one thirty. So I used to get everything done, and I
34:15
used to have to drop off tapes to the Devil's coach, to John Cunham's
34:20
house, to Dave wolves house, to Bill Fitcher's house before they woke up.
34:27
Their fact porch scoords were left open for me. The drop tapes off
34:30
at two o'clock in the morning of the next two opponents, three opponents offense,
34:35
defense, hockey, penalty play, power kill, penalty killed, power
34:39
play tapes three on two Yeah, opportunities, crazy stuff. So to answer
34:49
your question, I work at night and sleep during the day. Of course,
34:53
the game's aritt night and it's crazy. Yes, I gotta ask you
34:59
this. When the NHL and three on three in overtime, did that change
35:01
something for you, because I mean that was an adjustment every team in the
35:04
league got to make. Right, It just made you have to pay attention
35:08
more. But it didn't really, it didn't really affect us. Well we'll
35:15
we'll show you whatever they show you. But it was it was different being
35:21
a hockey person and hanging out with hockey. See the cool part about hockey
35:25
is I got to make two halftime tapes per game. In the NBA,
35:30
the coaches would ask me and tell me things they wanted. They wanted to
35:34
watch ten or fifteen plays at halftime. They geed me parameters to look for
35:38
to build a tape that they could watch at halftime or show the team.
35:44
In hockey, you had two halftimes, so I always felt that I could
35:47
help contribute even more so that was that was fun. Does that even go
35:52
down there? Where that how the guys stick his angry like why he didn't
35:55
make a goal of that period or even for the goalie, why you let
35:58
that goal? In type of thing. Yes, yes, and they would
36:00
ads on the fly and they would know and hopefully give them an advantage.
36:08
Did you think what was the video you got the eight ejections the other night
36:13
with the Devils and Range? I have to ask you that what was the
36:15
video you got on that? Because there was a brawl right second that well
36:17
that that's been going on for years. When the team starts their fourth line,
36:22
you usually know something they used to be. We used to play the
36:30
go have another donut series with the Devil's Boston Brooms. We sued the NHL
36:37
and their officials wouldn't show up, so our go judges put on skates and
36:46
became hockey officials for a playoff game, and it went to court. It
36:51
was and I flew on a plane with doctor McMullen to show the incident to
36:58
President Ziggler. At the time, right, there was no commissioner yet.
37:02
It was Eastern nineteen eighty eight. Nineteen eighty eight Sunday plan shot put us
37:09
in the playoffs. I remember that. Yep. Well, man, this
37:15
has been so funny. You're taking me back. I'm leaving names at I
37:19
wanted credit to all the coaches. Well, what's about talk? About me
37:23
that taught me and asked me, Mitch, can you do this? And
37:27
Mitch the TV stations that cost fifty thousand dollars. So my general manners say,
37:31
Mitch, I need to figure out how to do it for five Hey,
37:37
we got it done, rolling the math, we got it. We
37:40
got it done. I kept me my job all those years. So Marty
37:45
bro Door always I like shooting him, because what a goal is for the
37:49
rain, for the devils. Pardon me, Marty bro Door. Always I
37:54
like shooting him and getting video of him. Marti bro Door is the greatest
38:00
goalague, but Kenny Dryden might be the greatest goal. But Marti bro Door
38:07
was amazing. Marti bro Door was. That was a lot of fun.
38:12
I had a lot of fun with those guys. Those were in eight years.
38:17
It's pretty cool. And then a couple of more, well we had
38:25
in twenty twelve. Don't get me started. They supposed to call a minor
38:30
thirty seconds before they called the major in the l A game, and LA
38:32
scores a lot during the major and it's over, you know, one time.
38:38
So if speaking of can I piss off your anger fans? Mato Moto
38:43
Slava kicked it in slop. Yeah, no, I know, I know,
38:47
And dammit I sho that year too. Yeah. Well, because if
38:52
they won that day and they're beating Vancouver and the three of US, three
38:57
of US and and and Codia's two kids, could be very cool. That's
39:01
right. And uh they should have beaten They come back from Colorado, what
39:07
three games to game six? They lose Game six in the Meadowlands, which
39:10
I never thought the most Game seven in Colorado at wedding, that's right.
39:19
The old Nets ticket manager mentioned Louis Minton, Mitch, we have a mutual
39:24
connection, I believe. Did you know Lewis kats that well? Was he
39:28
involved in this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful wonderful Yes. No. They always
39:37
used to come into the video room. All of the owners used to come
39:40
into the video room because they had to pass me on their way to their
39:44
car. Right. We always would be complaining. Sometimes they'd ask me to
39:50
show them something. I remember. I know, mask of questions on terminals
39:54
take but I'm just so entroll. Hey, you're doing a great job.
40:00
I gotta ask you this. When you look at the way game film was
40:04
used by the Patriots to maybe spy on certain teams. Did that bother you?
40:08
Like, why are you using game film for that? Or or your
40:10
video crew for that? Did that piss you off? Or what not at
40:14
all? I might have been asked to do similar things in my day.
40:24
What's the statute of limitations? I'm not sure, but became. I was
40:34
told to deflate when I was managing the football team in high school and it
40:37
rained. I was told to deflate the football when we had the ball.
40:49
Well not no, How did you make sure with everybody you know and everybody?
40:54
How did you make sure all of the video you've taken over your career
41:00
get leaked? I mean, leaks are a big part of what the media
41:02
world is. Say, how did any of that knock get leaked? The
41:05
technology wasn't available back then. Who to leaked as much as it is now?
41:13
And now anybody who's leaking it is not getting it for me. They
41:16
just it's so easy to record from any source now these days. Sort of,
41:23
So I never knock knock. I never got in trouble for any of
41:27
that. Second of all, that was never really the public never knew about
41:32
me, So I never had had a deal with that intentionally, The public
41:37
never knew about me right, like a mask is coming off with the guy
41:43
behind it all? Is that? What is that? What this is Lewis
41:45
and Mitch or what? No, Mitch, Mitch is. Mitch is more
41:50
well known now and uh because of his of his great work. But but
41:54
Mitchell, I got I got a question for you. With the NBA draft
41:59
coming up, would you get a lot of requests but from teams for certain
42:04
guys who might be drafted in the first round or certain guys on the borderline?
42:07
Well if in the past, of course, of course, of course
42:10
in the past, every team would get a box of one hundred VHS tapes.
42:15
Because of the cloud, everything is self served these days, and not
42:22
only am I available, but they spend hundreds and hundreds and millions of dollars
42:28
on other companies putting together prospects and showing their video and things like that.
42:35
Some coaches have told me they don't like that. They would just rather watch
42:37
a full game because they want to see a player's body language. They don't
42:42
want to just see clips. They want to see after he just gets dunked
42:47
on is he moping? Is he looking for women in the stands? During
42:52
timeouts? You just get more of a feel of the human than just watching
43:00
lips. So there's a yin and the yang, just like anything else.
43:04
But the team still use me and lots of other sources to make their decisions.
43:13
They have a lot more available to them than they used to do.
43:16
Maybe in the old days, more of that when I was the only kid
43:21
on the block. But one last question, go ahead, Alex, go
43:27
ahead. Oh my god, I could ask him all a lot of questions.
43:30
Question for Mitch and then you can you can you can go, Mitch,
43:35
you off? You see, No, it's not a video question.
43:39
The stay in the NBA today. Obviously we grew up and we were with
43:44
the Nets during the greatest time in the NBA history. And Nets might not
43:47
have been so great, but Bird Magic, Doctor j Karme along Stock Jordans,
43:54
I mean, these these teams played to me, yeah, different level
44:00
of NBA game. Game that we saw three no three point shots, and
44:07
but I mean even when a three point shot was in, I mean I
44:10
was looking at that. A famous NBA playoff series between the Celtics and the
44:15
Sixers. Obviously they played three or four times over that in the early eighties,
44:22
the year that the Sixers put to three to one lead in eighty one.
44:25
I looked at the box score in games five, six and seven,
44:30
there was one three point taken yep by Chris Ford and he missed it.
44:35
Yeah, so it wasn't part of the game. And do you know if
44:37
it was the end of a quarter, which yeah, that's seventy it could
44:43
have been under the quartershot. You don't know, but some players wouldn't take
44:46
because they didn't want their percentage to go down, no doubt, no question,
44:52
And totally changed the game. Isn't likable totally change on so many to
45:00
be able to used to be able to touch somebody when you were guarding them.
45:02
I'd like to touch somebody when you're guarding anymore. Used to there was
45:07
no such thing as a euro step. It was actually one and a half
45:08
steps, or it was a travel four and a half steps and it's a
45:13
beautiful shot. I'm not sure when that happened either. It's a it's a
45:20
different game. You can't really compare the two. Is it the better game?
45:25
We're all stores were just the audience. Of course, everything was better
45:30
when Wilton Russell played an oscar and every when every player played eighty two games,
45:38
forty eight mm of course. I mean, I'll be honest with you.
45:45
Every night when I'm sitting down and I'm watching, I'm going up and
45:47
down the dial and I see you on a crawl. Every NBA game somebody
45:52
not playing, so they make illness whold spring it's the same, right,
46:00
I mean, it really is. And it's for somebody like us who spent
46:05
so much time in as a kid. As a kid, you go into
46:07
your game, the Superstars team comes into town the only time they come into
46:12
town, and you're looking forward to it all year. And he scored a
46:16
lot of points the night before. So now they're sitting there, Well,
46:21
you take a guy, or take a guy like Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan,
46:24
and we were and he when the Bulls were were winning those championships,
46:30
we were not good. We were winning twenty games a year, twenty three
46:34
games year, seventeen games. Yeah, carry, but but you're not good,
46:40
right? No? But did Jordan The Bulls could when they came into
46:45
the Meadowlands could have said, you know what, we're going to say that
46:49
you have a pulled caf and when they give you the night off. Jordan
46:52
never missed the game at the medal Lands, neither did Magic, you can
46:55
do Doctor j. You could do Bird, you can did Kareem, we
46:59
can right down the line. It's a different mindset. It used to be
47:02
more of a ballet because she was trying to work for a layup, right,
47:07
that's right. Now, you know nobody cares about layups anymore. Well,
47:12
Stan Van Gundy said something during these NCAA tournament games. He said that
47:19
the college game is now more physical than the NBA game. Think about that
47:23
and I think it's interesting. Yeah, so so you're not allowed to touch
47:30
anybody when you got him anymore. It's no. I just I really don't.
47:35
That's why it's like a thousand points a game. It feels like it
47:37
scored right because no one's done on each other. Just there's no depends Mitch
47:43
a couple of things for me. The video replays ruining the last five minutes
47:46
of the game, don it. That's what bothers me. They should be
47:52
able to get to that answer one way to the other. Caucus knows the
47:54
call. Why are we looking at this for ten minutes? Pete Williams,
48:00
Yeah, oh buddy, they see you know, Why are we still That's
48:04
what the NHL does. They just tell the report as a video as a
48:08
video guy, do you have to know, all, right, here's the
48:12
type of plays that go on, Like do you have to know screens and
48:15
have to know pick and roll like all those different strategies, or do you
48:17
just have to play when you're logging the game, the person that's logging the
48:21
game needs to be a coach these days. In the old days, you
48:28
could only since you were live logging and nothing was after the fact on computers,
48:34
you were only really able to log an offensive defense a player that took
48:38
the shot, maybe if it was against a man or a zone. Now
48:45
they're putting eight hundred descriptors on every possession because now it's also what what what
48:54
part of the court the shot was taken from, how many seconds around the
48:59
twenty four or second clock, what the fouls were on the two guys guarding
49:05
each other. And now they have spacing because of the cameras in the ceiling,
49:08
so they know if someone was actually guarded or not guarded all five players
49:15
at the same time, which you just couldn't do as one human logging in
49:21
game life. That's what's changed the fact that now we can go into it
49:27
and so much more gets attached to it so quickly. Any dish on the
49:35
Hurley brothers or the Hurley family that you got to do video for, because
49:39
I mean, look what we saw last night with Yukon was incredible again second
49:44
time in the row. Danny Hurley is an incredible coach. I mean,
49:47
anything about the Hurley family that you want to talk about or did you have
49:51
to film there, just as people just having met the dad back in nineteen
50:00
seventy nine or eighty because Jerry Daly, who was working with us at the
50:06
NETS, was his assistant coach at Saint Anthony's two years or so. He
50:12
used to come over and come out to lunch and bring these two little rugrats
50:15
with him sometimes and look what they turned into. So that's a part that's
50:23
very satisfying, of course. The Seaton Hall and the Connecticut factors is very
50:30
satisfying, of course, And it's just it's just good for the game.
50:37
I think. At the same time, do you feel like to even that
50:43
you are sort of a school of the game for these kids that are growing
50:46
up in the college world, Like they're going to school and they watch your
50:50
tape type of thing. Well, they're not necessarily watching my tapes as much
50:54
as they used to. So I don't think I have any impact on them.
51:00
But their coaches have the impact on them, using me as one of
51:04
the many tools in the coach's toolbox. But there are a lot of things
51:12
that they can do coach as well. Every player didn't have his own coach
51:17
back then either, Right, They didn't have their own rebound and they didn't
51:22
have their own mescuits, they didn't have their own coach. Were fifteen people
51:28
not eighty five people. Just everything about it is different. But I don't
51:34
give myself that much credit thinking that they're watching my tapes. Maybe I did
51:38
thirty years ago, but now I only say that because I feel like I'm
51:44
just a piece of the puzzle. Now. I just feel like kids,
51:47
they are all about making the three, in the big celebrations all that.
51:50
They're not about the school of the game. They're in it for themselves.
51:54
Maybe you agree, disagree. I blow Kobe fifteen years ago said aa,
51:59
you destroyed basketball in this country, And I think he had a point.
52:05
And I think we learned over the bubble that some of the most fundamentally sound
52:07
players last name ended in ic for some reason. Right, I'm not sure,
52:15
that's a coincidence because we kicked our ass for all those years and they
52:19
learned. They took it seriously. Right now, I didn't take it as
52:23
seriously. It got too easy for our kids for some reason. Now alexlicit
52:30
to this. Mitchell, tell tell Alex, tell everybody about the famous Kobe
52:37
Bryant workout at FDU. When happens to that the Nets tryout. See every
52:45
time I hear that, it's like a knife going through my heart because I
52:49
oh, no, no, because I once made two copies of it.
52:54
Oh okay, I gotcha, and I sent one to Kobe. We kept
53:00
wanted who We made two DVDs of it. We had the VHS master and
53:07
when we moved everything and Kobe didn't have it anymore and wanted it to right
53:15
right. But John Calla Parry, John Nash Ed Shilling is the workout coach.
53:25
Tobie Bryant comes to Fairley Dickinson University to work out for the Nets for
53:30
an hour. I'm filming it. I think Stan Olback was also there.
53:36
Yes, Stan was an assistant coach at the time Back and he was also
53:40
there. Coincidentally, unfortunately for his part. Ed O'Bannon had just flown into
53:47
town to begin after his first year playing as a net he had won the
53:57
Nate Smith Awards being the best college player in the country before we picked him
54:01
eight or nine. Dinah, he was okay. He comes to Fairy Dickinson
54:08
and they have the two of them play one on one and again I'm filming
54:14
it. So Kobe's up fourteen to nothing and edo bannon turns to him and
54:23
said, what are you? What are you twelve? What are you thirteen?
54:30
It was a man playing against a boy. And Kobe was the greatest
54:35
athlete ever. And I remember, I remember that the shot the film.
54:42
Yeah, it's it was amazing workout. I remember stand all about coming into
54:45
my office and I said, how did the Kobe work out go? And
54:49
Stan's first thing he said to me, I just saw the closest thing to
54:52
Michael Jordan, Right, So why didn't that? Why didn't we? So
54:55
why didn't we draft him? Well again, you know, but well there's
55:01
a lot of stories that go on. I know the late great Willis Reid
55:07
told told management even if he says that, even if it's agent said that
55:12
he's not going to come to New Jersey draft him anyway, Where's he gonna
55:15
go? And later Kobe said, if I was drafted by the Nets,
55:19
I would have played for the Nets. Yeah, so imagine that. Imagine
55:24
imagine that. Talk about how history would have changed. Imagine that. But
55:30
I remember that day now, remember that. It just made me think.
55:35
The second greatest work at I ever filmed, Keith Van Horn forty five minutes,
55:43
didn't miss He missed one shot in forty five five minutes. And the
55:49
shot he missed it back Eyron, he jumps after it, catches it with
55:54
his end and tomahawks. Fact. You know, he is a super talented
56:00
guy. Well looking at each other. And that's when Ed Schilling had him
56:02
running around chairs and doing spot ups, and nobody else in the world was
56:07
doing this stuff right because they were doing five star camp clinics with these guys,
56:15
and I worked them out and it was amazing. While we're in this
56:19
vein and Lou and I talk about it every episode on Terminal, Let's take,
56:22
does the transfer porter make your job a little more difficult, like trying
56:25
to give up with these guys in case, hey, he might go to
56:28
the portal. We got video of this guy. Does that change things?
56:30
For you at all or no, I think it makes me more valuable,
56:32
doesn't really change things for me. But now teams, I was just talking
56:37
to her again whether it's better now or was it better then talking to one
56:43
of my former managers. And we were just so happy that everybody on our
56:46
team wasn't a free agent when we were in college every year, right,
56:51
because when one of our assistant coaches transferred to Minnesota, half the team would
56:57
have left with him and we never would have had the team together to make
57:00
the finals in nineteen seventy six. Let's have the team would have left in
57:05
nineteen seventy five. True, that wasn't an option. Yeah, because I
57:09
think it's ruining as a fan, as an alum, as a coach,
57:17
it's crazy. And we had to take all those banners down for paying the
57:22
guys, and now you can pay them well again, then then put the
57:27
banners back up. I mean that is that has always been a pebble in
57:31
my shoe is vacated. Nonsense, even watching still this year, watching the
57:37
post game press conferences, any more questions for the student athletes. As Patino
57:42
said before the college basketball season at Saint John's, I'm coaching professionals. Let's
57:49
let's put it on the table that way. So they made one and done
57:52
legal. It stopped being student athletes now, didn't it. Yeah, No,
57:55
that I'm questioning. But these more coaches, these poor coaches. Oh,
58:00
Mike, I think I think I'm more about Alex To answer you,
58:04
to answer your question, I think it's now a more of a year round
58:07
need. See, it used to be that they were done scouting when they
58:15
played their last game, right now they're not. They got to find out
58:20
who who didn't get the minutes at their old school that they can go after,
58:24
Who did get the shots, who who doesn't didn't get the shots that
58:30
they got in when they were high school McDonald Americans And they go, I
58:32
mean you talk about any like anybody who like went to the UFC. That's
58:36
leaving I think, okay, oh well right, yeah, I'd love to
58:42
have you back on after the postseasons for the NBA and NHL. Tell us
58:45
what your video caught us that we might have seen on the average television broadcast
58:50
that we usued to have you back on. But I want to ask you
58:53
one thing about last night, because the whole thing about the networks, and
58:58
I thought and by the way, you and you are frendible Bill Rafter.
59:01
He's awesome and I want to get that for a moment before we signed,
59:05
if you're kind of proud of I, and also so yeah, I think
59:09
so we Uh, we go way back with him. I love I And
59:13
I saw him in the tunnel at Arthur saying to myself, do you ever
59:16
sleep? He's like, what sleep? So you know, the guy is
59:19
all over the place and he's he's great. But for you, what was
59:23
the difference truly shutting down zach Edy? Is that what the film was saying
59:28
to do last night? Or what what? What exactly did you can't do
59:30
right? Well? The film was let Zachie do what ever he once right,
59:37
and they shut down everybody else and just because they don't have anybody else.
59:39
So Zachie, you do it every want. Don't let anybody else,
59:43
aren't you? Because we got eight pros and they got one and a half.
59:46
Yeah, yeah, that's it's just attrition. After a while, I
59:51
think that's true. Well, Mitch, one last thing and then I promised
59:55
we'll let you go. Uh. The rise of the women's college game,
1:00:00
women's sports in general, has that help? Does that help you b has.
1:00:05
Does that help your business? Uh? No, we used to do
1:00:07
college the WNBA. Valacaman called me one day and said, Mitch David Stern
1:00:12
said, you're the only person to where that could help me. This is
1:00:15
a month before the WNBA started. So we did the first fifteen years of
1:00:17
the WNBA and they never had any money. Oh and finally a different analytics
1:00:27
company came in and said we're going to do it for even cheaper than Mitch,
1:00:30
right, So I said that that's fine, you can have it.
1:00:36
So that's fine. But now we're working with a new analytics company, which
1:00:42
is nice because that's the future. And apparently women's teams now have budgets to
1:00:50
pay analytics companies, So me sourcing analytics companies is to answer your question,
1:00:58
going to be something really good. That was you taking video of Kim Moki
1:01:01
though when she was an athlete? Right? Did you get any when we
1:01:07
moved? I'm sorry to say that. We tried to sell the women's games
1:01:15
to the WNBA and to some of the top ten colleges and nobody really wanted
1:01:22
them and it was too expensive to move three times with a thousand right,
1:01:30
multi thousand VHS tapes I wish I met you guys earlier. I wish the
1:01:37
technology right. But well, in that regard, then how can people still
1:01:43
sign up with hoop on video? Is there? No one can sign up
1:01:45
with oop on video. That's that's the interesting part. Only flee schools can.
1:01:57
That's my deal. I don't own the footage, but I'm allowed to
1:02:01
distribute it to the teams. That's right, right, that's right. Otherwise
1:02:08
i'd be retired by now. Well, Mitch, you're not gonna be retired.
1:02:14
You're gonna be doing a lot of stuff in the spring. So come
1:02:15
back, you know, one tournament down, a couple of Stanley Cup finals
1:02:20
and you know, and the NBA finals to go, and we'll see you
1:02:22
maybe not have too many six game overtimes to three o'clock in the morning,
1:02:27
right, Yes, that's what makes the game great. Come on now,
1:02:30
so now there's there's seriously nothing like playoff hockey. There's nothing like overtime playoff
1:02:36
hockey, because you can't leave the room, you can't answer the phone,
1:02:39
you can't look at you can't look at your phone. You missed the goal.
1:02:45
Yeah, great, it's great, and there's I thank you so much
1:02:51
for your time. I know we've taken we've gone on longer than we're only
1:02:57
talking for five minutes. I'm sorry, but that's how. That's how we're
1:03:01
interesting and and good. This segment was Alex, anything else to add before
1:03:07
we let bitch go? You know? One last thing was I want to
1:03:09
go back to the fab five question before I let you go? Did you
1:03:13
get a new filmling on them? No? I was flown out. Fisher
1:03:15
flew me out, so Bill free to put me on the bench when he
1:03:21
was the coach of Michigan and they played at the NIT in nineteen eighty four
1:03:25
eighty five, and he called me in to put me on the bench.
1:03:29
I don't know if that was legal or not, but I was working at
1:03:31
BETS and I'm on the bench of Michigan at the NIT in the garden,
1:03:35
but I'm sitting next to Steve Fisher, so we got friendly. So when
1:03:40
the Fisher Frieder thing broke where Bo said we need a Michigan man to coach
1:03:46
and he got rid of Frieda. I called Fisher and said, hey,
1:03:52
coach, I'm here if you need me. So he said please come out,
1:03:58
and I didn't eighty nine. So every other time he made the final
1:04:02
four. He made me do the same thing. So I was there in
1:04:06
ninety one and ninety two. Where were we Minneapolis and New Orleans or something,
1:04:14
and I think one of them was in I think one of them was
1:04:15
in New Orleans. And so I was there when we lost to Duke and
1:04:21
when Pat Sullivan got to make the foul shot. And here's the crazy part.
1:04:26
After eighty nine, Fisher promises me, Mitch, you're on the ring
1:04:30
list from now on. Well, they didn't want anymore, but I was
1:04:35
on there. I was. If Chris Robert doesn't call time out, I
1:04:39
have a ring you know. That's but the Fab four I was. And
1:04:45
Brian Dutcher, whose father recruited me. He's the guy that left to go
1:04:51
to Minnesota that half the team would have left for and he had the greatest
1:04:58
college team of all time. Oh the way, we'll talk about that next
1:05:01
time. Sounds good. This was fun, guys. Thanks for including me,
1:05:09
Mitch. I knew you I have no college games to take tonight,
1:05:13
so you did all. You did a great job for us. But seven
1:05:16
Morocos. Nobody plays opposite the men's game last night intentionally, that's right.
1:05:21
Everybody's playing tonight, Lou. I appreciate you connecting us with Mitch, and
1:05:27
I'm so glad to see this friendship is continuing now for what forty plus years?
1:05:30
I guess forty It will be forty three years on June first. Amazing
1:05:35
when I walked into that office and did not know anything, and uh,
1:05:42
forty three years later, we're still going strong. So thank you well,
1:05:45
guys, Thank you so much, Mitch. Thanks for doing Terminelo's take and
1:05:48
one leg up with Alex Scarett and come back after the craziness of the turn
1:05:53
of the postseasons here and spank you so much. Guys, good luck and
1:05:58
everything you do. Thank thank you Mitchell perfectly. Let me cut that hang on