Latest / The Inspired Stories Podcast / The Power of Niche Expertise: David Sangree's Hotel and Waterpark Appraisal Success

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The Power of Niche Expertise: David Sangree's Hotel and Waterpark Appraisal Success · The Inspired Stories Podcast

0:04
Welcome to another edition of the Inspired Stories podcast,
0:08
where leaders share their experiences so we can learn from
0:11
their successes and be inspired by how they've overcome
0:14
adversity. My name is Anthony Codispodi and
0:17
today's guest is David Sangree, president and owner of Hotel and
0:21
Leisure Advisors. Founded in 2005 and
0:24
headquartered in Cleveland, OH, this hospitality consulting firm
0:28
specializes in appraisals, feasibility studies, and impact
0:33
analysis for hotels, resorts, and water parks.
0:36
They emphasize personalized attention from experienced
0:40
professionals and have conducted over 4000 studies across North
0:45
America and internationally. David has been a hospitality
0:49
consultant since 1987, holding the MIMAI designation from the
0:54
Appraisal Institute and is a Certified Public Accountant.
0:59
Before starting hotel and leisure advisors, he served as
1:02
Director of Hospitality Consulting at US Realty
1:05
Consultants and volunteered with the US Peace Corps in Malawi.
1:10
His expertise in water parks and hotels has led to significant
1:14
recognition, including induction into the World Water Park
1:17
Association Hall of Fame in 2022.
1:22
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2:06
All right, back to our guest today, President of Hotel and
2:09
Leisure Advisors, David Sangree. Thanks for making the time to
2:12
Share your story today. Thank you for having me.
2:15
So, David, you've been in the hospitality industry for a long
2:20
time. What first drew you in?
2:23
You know, when I was growing up, my mother particularly loved to
2:27
travel. And each year and our February
2:31
vacation, we would get to go to some place that was a bit, a bit
2:36
unusual. We got to, we went to Venezuela
2:38
one year to Puerto Rico to. And at that time it just wasn't
2:42
quite as common. So I love to just follow along
2:46
with these trips and help plan where we would travel to and
2:49
visit. And when I got into high school,
2:52
I had my first jobs working at different restaurants at the The
2:57
Donut Man in Holliston, MA, at the Craigville Beach Snack Bar
3:01
in Cape Cod. And so when it came time to
3:05
apply to college, my parents said, well, maybe you should
3:08
think of Cornell. They have this hotel school and
3:11
we went to visit Cornell and I just my eyes were open wide and
3:15
I thought, oh, this is so interesting that there could be
3:19
AI could go to college and study this type of material.
3:23
And I was lucky to get in because Cornell is a very hard
3:26
school to get in. And the rest is kind of history
3:30
that that, that I've unlike many people who kind of switched
3:33
careers, all that I'm staying with this court, my hospitality
3:38
focus my entire entire time since then, just because it's
3:43
really such a fascinating industry.
3:45
What is it about it that appeals so much to you?
3:48
Well, because I'm just, I'm an explorer by nature and I'm also
3:53
an analyst by nature. So I'm, I've always been
3:56
interested in, you know, what, what things are there to see
3:59
there and why do people go there and what are, what things would
4:03
I enjoy seeing them? Kind of a history buff and I've
4:06
always enjoyed visiting different places and
4:09
experiencing and seeing what the history is there, but also enjoy
4:14
different physical things like going swimming and biking and
4:18
going to the beach and different things that many tourists enjoy
4:21
doing. So it's just always been
4:24
something that has been a favorite activity of mine.
4:27
So it's been a joy to be able to combine my work life with my
4:31
personal interest to to do them both the same time.
4:36
That's fun when they melt together like that, isn't it?
4:38
Yes. So early in your career you held
4:41
some different leadership positions at US Realty
4:44
Consultants, and you were working on appraisals and
4:47
studies for hotels and resorts. Can you think of a particularly
4:50
memorable project there that really influenced your
4:54
leadership approach today? Yes.
4:56
So I started when I graduated from college, I worked for
5:01
Westin Hotels and then I worked for PKF, which is a national
5:05
hospitality consulting firm. And then I was with US Really
5:09
Consultants for much longer. And my favorite assignment from
5:15
US Really Consultants was I was working.
5:19
I have been doing a lot of hotel studies and a bit of studies on
5:25
other types of commercial real estate.
5:28
But a client called me and said they were thinking of developing
5:31
an indoor water park resort in Sandusky.
5:34
OH, and I had never heard of an indoor water park resort and
5:39
they at that time they were just a couple of them in the
5:42
Wisconsin Downs. But I was certainly up to to the
5:45
challenge and said yes, I would like to do the study.
5:49
So they, we got hired to do the study and as part of it, my, my
5:54
little boy at that time was 2 years old.
5:57
And this was in 1999. And so we, the three of US 1998,
6:03
the three of us flew up to Wisconsin and we stayed at what
6:07
was then called the Great Bear Lodge, which is now the Great
6:10
Wolf Lodge. And this was just an incredibly
6:13
themed, unique resort property that has this large indoor water
6:18
park with this Northwoods, Wisconsin theming.
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And I thought, wow, this is really interesting.
6:24
And it was. You could just see the joy in
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the children and my own son, who was really too little at that
6:30
time to go do any of the rides, but he still enjoyed the water
6:35
and the play. They had a little area for the
6:37
toddlers. So when I came and did the field
6:40
work for that assignment, that involved interviewing all the
6:44
hotels in Sandusky and to ask we like to try to gather data from
6:49
the different hotels as to what is their performance levels and
6:52
what's their opinion of this new hotel project.
6:55
And everybody that I met told me this would never work because
7:00
Sandusky was a place that people only came when Cedar Point was
7:04
open and when Cedar Point, which is one of the world's best
7:08
amusement parks, when Cedar Point closed, no one has any
7:12
reason to come to Sandusky. So I did my research and made a
7:18
number of comparisons with the Wisconsin Dells and realized
7:21
that, yes, this could really work here.
7:24
So our study came in favorable for the project, and the client
7:29
decided to build the project. And the first years of that
7:34
opening were incredibly successful.
7:36
And it's just a, it's really a pleasure to be it for me to be
7:40
able to do a study and find out that you're not only accurate,
7:43
but you are better more than accurate.
7:45
You know that your results have been true.
7:48
But then after that, of course the Kalahari opened up and
7:51
Castaway Bay opened up and Sandusky has now become much
7:55
more of a year round tourist destination.
7:57
And all because of the study that we started doing.
8:02
You know, obviously somebody else could have done it too, but
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just that I that our study was helped helped get that process
8:08
started. So that that has been a big
8:11
effect on my career. So why would those hotels want
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to share their data with you? Well, every hotel that's built
8:20
usually has some sort of a study done.
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So they most people in the hotel industry are aware of this and
8:28
they don't share all of their data.
8:29
But what we're asking about is their hotel occupancy and ADR.
8:34
And this is information that they do share typically with
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STR, which is a national service that gets data from all of the
8:43
big brands and puts together these reports that give the
8:47
average occupancy and ADR for the different lodging markets
8:51
all over the country. So we're we're asking is
8:54
individual performance figures, which some people don't want to
8:57
share, but others are willing to give you a range and some are
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willing to give you the actual numbers.
9:02
But at the same time, we like to just get their opinions on
9:04
different projects we're studying.
9:07
What is the individual project information that some people
9:11
share? What like what's the difference
9:13
between that and the average daily rate?
9:15
Like they're telling you like everybody like 1 not not
9:18
obviously their names, but you know, this person paid $120.00 a
9:21
night. This person paid 150.
9:23
No, they're telling us what is their annual occupancy for the
9:27
past three years. That's what we're trying to get.
9:29
So you know, a hotel typically averages around 65% occupancy.
9:34
So, but every hotel is different.
9:37
So we're trying to find out for that for your, for this
9:40
individual hotel, what is the annual occupancy that that hotel
9:44
achieved over the past three years.
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And then we have a, a model that we've set up or we put in all of
9:50
these numbers and it it helps us in coming up with what kind of
9:54
rational projections can be made for a new project in the market.
9:59
And what was the data specifically that you saw in
10:01
that study? That said, I think Sandusky, OH
10:04
is a great place for a indoor water park.
10:07
Well, Sandusky, OH was very much like Wisconsin Dells in that
10:12
during the summer the occupancy levels were very high.
10:15
They were running over 80% and in some weeks over 90% while in
10:20
the winter time they were running in the 20 to 40%
10:24
occupancy. In Wisconsin Dells this was very
10:27
similar prior to the opening of the water park resort or the non
10:32
water park resorts were running in this exact pattern.
10:35
In the summer. They were doing very well
10:37
because Wisconsin Dells has a lot of exciting things to do in
10:41
the summer while in the winter there was nobody coming.
10:45
So there was this very end of in both markets have a major cities
10:50
that that they're attracting demand from Chicago going to The
10:53
Dells and the Milwaukee and Madison while Sandusky was
10:56
Cleveland, Detroit and Columbus. So there there was just many
11:02
similarities that we were able to identify between the two
11:05
markets that gave us credence to come up with our projections.
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And so when that first water park was open in Sandusky, were
11:16
some people using the water park but staying at one of the other
11:20
hotels? No, their policy in the 1st 5 to
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10 years was you had to stay there to use the water park.
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And that was actually a very good policy because when you
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stay at the resort and use the water park, you, you have a
11:34
better feeling of the the amenities versus going out to
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your car and changing and then going to someplace else.
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Now they've, many of these have changed their policy.
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They do allow day passes, but at that time they were not allowing
11:48
them. OK.
11:50
All right. So now at some point in your
11:51
career, you took two years to serve in the Peace Corps in
11:57
Malawi. What was behind that decision?
12:00
Seems like a bit of a left turn. Yes.
12:03
So I had, I had moved to Chicago after graduation and worked at
12:09
the Westin Hotel and I had met my wife there and we were
12:15
married. And then I had, I, we were
12:18
married for three years. And during the, before I, we
12:21
met, and I mean, when we first met and when we were married, I
12:25
had told her that, you know, I would just love to join the
12:28
Peace Corps. And this is something that I had
12:31
always had as a dream to go live in another country and see what,
12:34
what life was like there. And she luckily was on board
12:38
before we were married. So it wasn't a total shock to
12:41
her. But we applied a year or two
12:46
after we got married and then went after, after we've been in
12:51
Chicago for five years. And they, they sent us to
12:55
Malawi, which is a country in Southern Africa that I had was,
12:58
I had not been aware of, but it was just a wonderful place.
13:02
It's a a very poor country, but the people there are, have, are
13:05
just the, they call themselves the warm heart of Africa.
13:09
And it's truly the people there were the the nicest and
13:12
friendliest people, despite the economic challenges that they
13:15
face. And I got to my position was
13:19
working with their national credit union system, setting up
13:23
credit unions and training bookkeepers.
13:25
So I'm, as you mentioned, I'm ACPA as well as the Mai and the
13:34
so I was, I travelled around the southern part of the country.
13:37
I had a motorcycle go visit different credit unions, give
13:41
little speeches about why they should be saving them money and
13:44
how to take out a loan rationally and do audits of the
13:48
books of different people. And it was just a fascinating
13:51
time to get to, to see entirely totally different culture than
13:56
America and also see that this is really influenced by whole
14:00
life since then. Just because one knows that when
14:04
we try to focus our charitable giving on projects in Malawi,
14:08
because we know that there's such a need there.
14:11
Say more about what you continue to do today with Malawi and your
14:15
charitable contributions. Yeah.
14:17
So I'm currently on the board of the University of Livingstonia,
14:21
which is a university in Malawi that is a it's affiliated with
14:26
the Presbyterian Church, and it is working to try to educate
14:31
more people there to go to college.
14:34
Very few people in Malawi get to go to college.
14:36
It's a much, much smaller portion of people than in
14:40
America. And so our goal with the
14:43
foundation is to raise money to help people go to school.
14:47
And the average scholarship is about the IT costs about $2000 a
14:52
year to go to to the college. So they cost there are much
14:56
lower just because the whole economic system, there is so
14:59
much more challenge. So we are raising funds for not
15:03
only scholarships for students because there is such a
15:06
challenge to pay to go to school, but also to try to
15:10
improve the infrastructure of the university.
15:13
And they are building a whole new campus.
15:16
They're, they're renovating a campus in the capital city of La
15:19
Longway that we've been helping them fund and, but honestly, it
15:24
needs a lot more funds. So that has been a diversion for
15:29
me to continue to be part of the My Malawi experience, but really
15:34
helping, helping this university grow.
15:37
If some of our listeners are interested in learning more
15:40
about this, perhaps participating or contributing,
15:43
where could they go? They can go to the website under
15:47
the University of Livingstonia Foundation and there's a great
15:51
website we have that describes the college and there's a place
15:55
to donate there and there's a way to reach out as well.
15:58
So appreciate the mentioning that.
16:01
How did the experience that you had in Malawi influence your
16:06
perspective on hospitality? Yeah, well, that's it really has
16:12
the, you know, working in Malawi and work what I do today are not
16:17
really at all the same, but the experience of travelling the
16:21
globe and getting to see the hotels and resorts that are in
16:26
Malawi itself. But then on the way home from
16:29
Malawi, we spend a couple months going around the world, getting
16:33
to visit multiple countries and seeing a different hotels and
16:38
resorts in different places. At that time, of course, we were
16:42
on a strict, pretty much of A strict budget.
16:44
So we could only go in the lobby of the fancier hotels to see
16:47
what they would look like. But we didn't get to stay there.
16:51
But they, that still, that really was an eye opener for me
16:54
to get to see us fancy Sheraton in India and the, the, the cool
17:00
hotels in Nairobi. And so, but the just being in,
17:05
in the Peace Corps, I was able to experience people from just
17:10
all different classes of life. And that has been with me the
17:14
rest of my life. When you grow up in America, in
17:17
a certain environment, you kind of you, you have a certain
17:21
outlook on life. And when you go to live in a
17:24
place like Malawi, your outlook dramatically expands.
17:28
And that I think has helped me a lot with my career in in total.
17:33
Bigger world view, right? Yes, yeah.
17:36
So how ultimately did the idea to start your own consulting
17:39
firm come about, David? Well, I had been at US really.
17:42
I had joined US Really Consultants in 1992 and was with
17:49
them until 2005, so quite a long time.
17:53
But I had decided that I was pretty much getting all my own
17:57
business and that clients were calling me for studies related
18:03
to the hospitality industry and I really wanted a firm that had
18:07
the word hotel in it instead of just a commercial real estate
18:12
appraisal firm. So I decided to leave them in
18:17
2005 and start my own firm and my wife joined me in helping us,
18:22
helping me set this up. And we called it hotel and
18:26
leisure advisors, which was exactly what I wanted to be
18:29
advising on those, those areas. And, and the luckily then from
18:36
pretty much day one, we people started calling me and saying,
18:41
you know, Hey, can you help me with this project or that
18:43
project? And it's has been, it's 20 years
18:48
later, I'm still doing the same thing and people are still
18:51
calling. So that has been a a wonderful
18:53
thing. When you say from day one people
18:56
were calling, how is that possible?
18:58
Is it just because of the relationships that you'd had
19:00
with your former employers, people knew you then they heard
19:04
that you went out on your own? Or did you have some kind of
19:06
marketing effort so that the first day you open your doors
19:09
like people are are seeing your ads somewhere?
19:14
No, it was very much a personal relationships.
19:16
So the because I had as a 2005, I was had been a speaker.
19:25
I've been pretty well known in the water park segment.
19:30
So there is an annual conference that has been put out by the
19:34
World Water Park Association that I have been speaking at for
19:38
a few years a previous to this decision and have gotten to know
19:44
a lot of the players in the water park resort segment as
19:47
well as the general hotel segment.
19:51
And when I went on my own, we did let a number of press
19:55
releases had gone out about the new company and then people
19:58
started reaching out to me saying, hey, we'd like you to do
20:02
a study for this project or that project.
20:04
So they they were the personal relationships.
20:07
OK, so help us better understand the extent of the services that
20:11
you offer. People are hiring you to do
20:14
studies like we've heard about the water park.
20:16
Hey, we're thinking about opening up a new facility here.
20:19
Is it a good idea? Is it a bad idea?
20:22
What else are you guys providing?
20:24
Yes. So I'm an Mai appraiser.
20:27
So banks are required to have an appraisal done on all of their
20:33
real estate holdings every so often, every year or a couple of
20:37
years. So we get hired by many banks to
20:42
do appraisals of different hotels and resorts.
20:46
We also do the feasibility studies where we are hired to
20:50
help a client. A client has a dream.
20:52
They have a dream to build a hotel or a water park or an
20:55
amusement park. And they'll call us and say, you
20:58
know, I have this dream and I'd really like to do this.
21:02
And but they need to have a document that can justify is
21:09
this financially viable and what kind of attendance and hotel
21:13
occupancy and average pricing and revenues and expenses would
21:17
this generate? So we are, I'm not, you know,
21:22
I'm an expert in this area and our, we, our firm is an expert
21:26
in this area. And we get hired to do these
21:29
types of studies all over the country as well as a bit
21:32
internationally to help clients kind of take their dream and put
21:37
it on paper as to what the financial metrics would be for
21:43
that, for that project. Then we also do economic impact
21:47
studies where a project is, there's a, there's a budget for
21:52
a project, but how much economic impact would that project have
21:56
on a community? So for that one, we're hired
21:59
either by a municipality or by a developer and we calculate how
22:04
much tax revenue and how much jobs and economic output would
22:10
be created by this new attraction or new hotel.
22:14
And the numbers 1 is only surprised at how much economic
22:17
output can be created in each of the studies that we do that has
22:22
been then built. I'm always amazed that, you
22:24
know, you can actually see the economic impact in motion in, in
22:27
Sandusky's, the classic example, it's been over 20 years now
22:31
since it's become a water park resort destination.
22:34
And just the growth that's occurred there because of those
22:37
resorts is, is amazing. What goes into that economic
22:42
impact number? Because whether it's a hotel or,
22:45
I don't know, a commercial office building or a stadium, I
22:49
often see that number referenced and the numbers seem just
22:55
unbelievable. And I know that there's other
22:57
like with the stadium example, clearly they're not just talking
23:00
about the ticket sales and the merch sales that happen in the
23:03
stadium. They're talking about things
23:04
that sort of happened, you know, out around side.
23:06
But how do you what? What goes into that and how do
23:09
you calculate it? Yes.
23:10
So when you're doing an iconic impact study, there's the direct
23:14
impact and the indirect impact. So the direct impact is the
23:18
spending by the facility itself. So the hotel would, hotel guests
23:25
would stay there, they'd be spending money.
23:27
So that's part of it. And then the hotel spends money
23:30
when it buys the food to prepare to make the meals or, or hires
23:34
the housekeeper or has the front desk clerk, while the indirect
23:39
is really where the numbers start getting bigger.
23:42
So every time that hotel spends the money to buy the food, that
23:47
food provider then spends money to get it from the farm and or
23:51
they have staff who accumulate the things to, to drive it over
23:56
to the hotel. So and then those guests who
24:00
stay at your hotel, they're not spending all of their money at
24:04
the hotel. They're spending money in the
24:06
community going to different events, like maybe there's a
24:09
concert or maybe there's a football game.
24:12
So they're going to spend money at those events.
24:14
So those have to be accounted for.
24:17
So there's a system of multipliers that we utilize
24:20
published by the US Department of Commerce.
24:23
And there's a they have a different set of multipliers for
24:25
every county in America and and in Canada there's a similar of
24:31
service called by Statistics Canada.
24:34
So we utilize these multipliers in coming up with you have a
24:38
specialized methodology to come up with economic impact for
24:42
hotels and leisure attractions. Do hotel employees salaries get
24:48
factored into that calculation? Yes, yeah.
24:50
So payroll is a key number, as does the construction costs
24:54
related to building the project. So there maybe there's two
24:58
numbers. Is it sort of the initial
25:00
economic impact because that would be like construction would
25:03
be wrapped into that and then like the annual ongoing impact
25:06
number that's expected? Yes, so you that's exactly it.
25:10
There's the there's the construction impact and then the
25:13
every year there'll be impact from the operation of the resort
25:17
and those then there's generally a lot of tax revenues created
25:20
from that in economic impact. And what many municipalities
25:24
will do is they'll utilize the figures from our studies to help
25:28
determine, you know, can we help this resort out?
25:32
Like we did a big study in in Kala of the Kalahari resort in
25:36
Allen in Round Rock, TX. So Kalahari is a large resort,
25:42
indoor water park resort company and they proposed to build a 900
25:47
room resort in Round Rock, TX, which is just your Austin.
25:51
And they had us do the feasibility study and the
25:55
economic impact study. And they showed this to the
25:58
city. And the city recognized that
26:00
this would really have a massive impact on their community and
26:04
they should be helpful to them. And they offered to build the
26:07
Convention Center for the resort because they recognized that
26:13
this would be a great comment. You know, we can get a
26:15
Convention Center that will be paid for by the sales tax
26:18
generated by the resort. And Kalahari is just going to
26:22
bring in so much more attention and visitors to our community.
26:25
And they, they were just thrilled by this.
26:28
So that's where our studies can be used by the community to help
26:31
them. So these economic impact
26:34
studies, they're projections, right?
26:36
And you're basing them off of these multipliers from data
26:40
sources that you mentioned. Is there the ability to two, 3-4
26:45
years later, go back and review actual data to see how close the
26:51
projection got to reality? There's definitely, we try to do
26:55
that with our studies where we go, you know, well first of all,
26:59
not all of our studies get built.
27:01
So there's only a portion of the studies that actually get built.
27:04
But of the ones that get built, we are always trying to look
27:07
back and see how accurate were our numbers.
27:10
So it's easy for us to to not easy, but we can more easily
27:15
look at the how our occupancy, ADR and financial results
27:22
compared to the actual performance of the property.
27:25
The economic impact numbers are a little bit more difficult
27:28
because then you have a number of stores and attractions and
27:32
community benefits you're trying to calculate.
27:35
So then we have to be a little more general because it's hard
27:37
to to match the exact numbers, but but we do try when we can.
27:42
What do you think is a good percentage of accuracy if you
27:47
projected $100 million impact, are you thinking, hey, we did
27:52
pretty well if it was 80 million?
27:55
We generally are trying to be within about 10% is our goal is
28:01
to be within 10%. But we do stay right in our
28:04
engagement matters that we cannot vouch that these numbers,
28:07
you know, these are estimates that they're not, we're not,
28:10
we're not saying that we are going to take responsibility if
28:13
they're not right. And then we're doing the best we
28:14
can. Yeah, nobody can guarantee the
28:16
future. Can't guarantee them, but we do.
28:18
Our goal is to be within 10%. Now, are you mostly getting
28:23
hired to do studies on new build projects, or do people bring you
28:28
in if they're thinking about selling their facility or maybe
28:31
acquiring a new one to help do valuations and future
28:35
projections? Yes.
28:37
So we do a number of studies on existing properties and many of
28:41
those are for either refinancing or for tax appeals, so both.
28:48
So for refinancing the property, the bank may hire us to do an
28:51
appraisal of an existing property to help them determine
28:55
how much a loan should be. And for tax appeal.
29:00
A in in every state, pretty much we have a, we have a system
29:05
where the government assesses that property at a certain value
29:09
and the the property owner has an opportunity to appeal that
29:13
value and the school board sometimes has an opportunity to
29:17
appeal that value. So we get hired by both the
29:20
school boards or the government authorities as well as the
29:25
property owners when they feel their assessment is inaccurate.
29:30
And we are hired to determine what is an appropriate value for
29:33
that property. And then sometimes we have to go
29:35
to court and testify about that rule.
29:39
And is it you mentioned court, I was going to ask, is it like a
29:43
mediation thing sometimes? Like are they ever required to
29:47
take the valuation that you came up with and use it?
29:50
Or is it just like maybe one side hired one firm to analyze
29:56
the value and then the other side hired a different firm and
29:58
so now you guys are sort of arguing or discussing your
30:01
different valuations? Yes.
30:03
In the normal situation, we are hired by one side, the other
30:08
side may hire somebody else. We go to court and we, you know,
30:14
there's either a magistrate or a judge of some kind who listens
30:18
to both evidence and then they explore in the the Ohio Supreme
30:22
Court. I have appeared before them or
30:25
my report has gone to them and they've had to make a decision
30:28
about is that my value was more appropriate than the other side
30:34
in a couple of different cases. OK.
30:37
What's maybe a key innovation that you guys have brought to
30:41
the table there, hotel and leisure advisors that
30:43
differentiates your services from other consultants?
30:48
Yes. So there is, you know in the
30:50
consult in the hospitality consulting world, there are the
30:55
big boys that I'll call them. There is a firms like HVSCBRE
31:00
and Newmark, Cushman and Whitefield and these are firms
31:04
with hundreds of employees. Our firm, we have 11 employees
31:10
and offer kind of a niche service where we provide
31:16
individualized attention and a more detailed analysis that
31:21
includes a more data-driven approach where we are really
31:26
focused on that project and what does the data show and a more
31:31
detailed write up than what some of these large firms are
31:33
generating, which are a little bit more boilerplate.
31:37
So I think our innovation is just in the water park segment
31:42
specifically, we are the nation's leader in terms of we
31:45
have more of data than any other firm about this segment because
31:50
it is a pretty small segment. So a firm of our size can kind
31:54
of be the market leader. But in the hotel segment, there
31:57
are certainly are these other bigger firms that do a much
32:00
larger volume of reports than we do.
32:06
And it's also that when when we work with us that I'm pretty, I
32:11
am involved in nearly all of the assignments.
32:13
So we do try to give, but we have a, we do have a team
32:17
approach that we work with studies.
32:19
We have multiple people who work on different components.
32:22
Of the report. Does your combination of CPA and
32:27
Mai set you apart? Is that unusual in this space?
32:32
It's a, there are a number of Mai appraisers in this space,
32:37
but there are not very many who are both Cpas and MA is so the.
32:43
And then I'm also a member of the International Society of
32:47
Hospitality Consultants, which is a group of hospitality
32:51
consultants like myself who are all over the world.
32:54
And there's about 200 of us in this group.
32:57
And they include some Mai and CPA type people, but not so many
33:03
more of them are architects and lawyers and other types of
33:07
people. So it is a very, I definitely
33:10
have, it's our companies is quite a niche in the country in
33:14
that we have a, a, a, a niche in this resort financial analysis
33:20
segment that there aren't really that many other firms that are
33:24
doing as much of A niche as we are.
33:26
There are other firms doing a much broader scope of things,
33:29
but we we also do broad, but we are just have this narrow focus
33:32
as well. So David, you and I are
33:35
recording this interview on October 15th, 2025.
33:39
And the interview was intentionally delayed for some
33:44
period of time because of some big news that you wanted to have
33:49
come out beforehand. What?
33:51
What's the announcement that you have?
33:53
Yes. So I'm so happy to announce that
33:56
I have been. I started the firm again with my
33:58
wife on October 1st, 2005 and on September 30th, 2025 or exactly
34:07
20 years later, we went into a partnership with ADCI which is
34:15
stands for Architectural Design, Architectural Design Consulting
34:22
Incorporated based in Wisconsin. And they are, they have bought
34:27
our firm and we are going to continue on as a hotel leisure
34:32
advisors as a subsidiary of them.
34:34
And the combination of the firm now offers clients the
34:38
opportunity to have the feasibility study done by us and
34:42
then to have them take over in terms of doing the design and
34:47
getting the thing actually built.
34:49
So it's going to be an, A really cool way for the to, for
34:54
clients. They don't have to now leave us
34:57
when we finish our studies. There's now this great
35:00
architectural firm that specialize, they are the world's
35:03
leader in indoor water park resort design.
35:06
They have designed more indoor water park resorts than any
35:08
other firm in the world. So it's a really, I've been
35:12
working with them on and off for 20 years on different studies
35:15
that we have done the study and they've done the design.
35:18
And when I, when I had hired an investment banker to help me
35:23
look for a possible partner to, to merge with so that when I'm
35:28
ready to retire, I actually could retire.
35:32
And they were one of the companies we identified and they
35:36
saw the, they saw the, the synergy that I had saw when we
35:39
reached out to them. So I was really happy that they
35:43
were interested. And after a long process, we
35:46
just, this just happened. We just made the formal
35:49
announcement yesterday, so. Oh, congratulations.
35:53
That's exciting. Yeah.
35:54
So you guys were both experts in the same niche but different
35:59
services to that niche, right? You're doing the feasibility
36:02
study, they're helping to design the indoor water parks.
36:08
Prior to the the formal partnership, were you guys
36:13
referring business to each other in an informal way?
36:15
Did you know each other? Had you spent much time together
36:19
before you you reached out and and secured the investment
36:23
banker to help you with the process?
36:25
Yes, I have. I have known them for pretty
36:28
much the whole time they've been, they have been very active
36:31
in the water park space and so I got to know them early on in my
36:36
water park dealings. Their their head offices in
36:39
Wisconsin Dells, WI, which is a small community to have a
36:44
architectural firm with 5055 people working there.
36:49
But they also have an office in Madison, WI, which of course is
36:52
the state capital. But they so they have been the
36:57
leader in the water park space for this entire time, having
37:02
done work for Great Wolf Lodge and Kalahari Resorts.
37:05
And just, they open the, they've designed the O'Connor Resort in
37:09
Oklahoma City and the Cartwright Resort in New York State.
37:14
So I, we have done studies on many of these projects that they
37:17
have designed. So we have had a referral
37:20
relationship and a Co working relationship for many years.
37:25
Do they focus exclusively on water park design or do they do
37:30
other types of hotel projects from the ground up?
37:35
Yes, they do architecture for a wide range of commercial work.
37:39
They do a regular hotels, all different kinds of brands as
37:43
well as they have a division that does schools and churches
37:47
and senior living centers and other other types of buildings.
37:53
What do you think the future of the water indoor water park
37:56
industry looks like? You know, people have been
38:00
asking me this for a number of years and they're like, oh,
38:02
isn't this going to stop? And people get less interested.
38:05
But the truth is when you have a small child going to a water
38:09
park, their eyes just open up. And this has happened.
38:13
I've been observing this now for over 25 years.
38:16
And the, as an adult, you know, many adults, they get kind of
38:20
tired of water parks. They may, they're not going to
38:22
go on their own. But when you go with a child,
38:25
the, I've never, almost never met a child who is not excited
38:29
to be there. So the, there's certainly not an
38:32
opportunity to have water parks. You know, there's the, the
38:37
opportunity is for a steady growth.
38:39
It's, it's not that we're going, they're going to blanket the
38:42
nation, but that their people do love going to them.
38:46
And there are a definite opportunities for a continued
38:49
expansion, particularly as these vendors in the space keep coming
38:55
out with some new rides and things that are even more themed
38:59
and more exciting. They, they have, they're kind of
39:03
combining the amusement park amusement park trends with the
39:07
water park trends so that the, the rides feel like a, like they
39:13
have these water coasters now that make you feel a little bit
39:16
more like a roller coaster and other types of rides that are
39:21
better than what was there before.
39:23
So when when people open a new attraction or they renovate an
39:26
existing one, they can put in some of these new rides and it's
39:29
kind of creates a whole new experience.
39:32
So maybe less like just a traditional sort of like drop
39:35
down kind of water slide. But I think what you're saying
39:39
is like a water slide that almost kind of seems like a
39:42
roller coaster, like there's some ups and downs and loop de
39:45
loops. Am I thinking of the right
39:47
things? Here you are thinking the right
39:48
things, yes. So there's still the regular
39:50
slides because people do like those and they are a bit less
39:53
expensive to build. But these water coasters, you're
39:57
in a raft and the raft can hold anywhere from two to four
40:01
people. And you may go up and down a
40:06
slide, an attraction that that could sometimes have big bowls
40:10
that you spin around in. And they just, they make them a
40:13
really fun. And so the people do love to.
40:17
Are there particular size communities or destinations that
40:23
seem like they're a better fit? Here's part of the reason I
40:25
asked. I live not far from from you or
40:29
from, you know, the, the early project that you talked about in
40:32
Sandusky. I'm in Columbus, OH.
40:34
Columbus is, I don't know, 14th largest city in the country.
40:39
But when we want to take our kids to a water park, we're
40:41
either going to Sandusky or we're going to the Cincinnati
40:43
area because we don't have one. What?
40:47
What kind of makes the right location for a facility like
40:51
this? Yes, well this has, you know you
40:54
do have them in Columbus and Zumbezi Bay, which is an outdoor
40:58
water. Park an outdoor one, but not an
41:00
indoor facility. You don't have an indoor, so
41:03
there were two indoor water parks in the Columbus Market.
41:07
One was on the east side at Hamilton Road and 1 was in
41:12
called the Cherry Valley Lodge and that was in Newark.
41:15
OH, and both of those have closed because they did not do
41:20
well enough. And they were both they they
41:23
added a water park to an existing hotel.
41:26
And what they what the customer found is that the existing hotel
41:30
was not it just wasn't nice enough to justify a vacation.
41:34
It they had not they didn't spend enough money to make it a
41:37
destination. So the typical water park
41:41
resorts that do best are those that are in vacation areas but
41:45
not too far of a drive where people go to there.
41:48
And then the resort is kind of a themed resort that has a lot of
41:53
activities and a bit of unusualness to it that makes
41:57
people want to come back again. And again.
42:00
The ones that have opened up, about 10 to 15 years ago, there
42:03
was a group called the Coco Key Resorts and these opened up and
42:09
they took older franchise hotels and added a water park to them.
42:14
And they never did well because the the hotels were just a a
42:17
standard room without any theming and nothing interesting
42:21
about it. And the water park wasn't that
42:23
nice either. So the the customers maybe went
42:26
once, but they just didn't feel like it was worth coming back
42:28
to. So that the the successful types
42:32
of these properties are those that have more theming and more
42:36
activities for their families. All right, David, so with all of
42:39
your contacts, what strings can you pull to bring a facility
42:43
right here into my backyard in Columbus?
42:46
Well, we'll keep that in mind. Let's the Columbus Zoo would be
42:50
a great location for it because there's obviously that's kind of
42:53
your tourist destination in Columbus.
42:55
And they've already got quite a bit of land up there, yeah.
42:57
But I'm not aware of anybody proposing one right now.
43:00
But you certainly could become the client and help them do it.
43:03
Little bit outside of my wheelhouse, but I don't know,
43:07
I'm intrigued because there's still the facility on the east
43:09
side that sits there shuttered. Would take some massive
43:13
renovations to get it up to speed.
43:15
But all right, well, you and I'll talk offline about that
43:18
because I've got two boys, 9:00 and 11:00.
43:21
And I can vouch for how excited they get going to one of the
43:25
water parks in in Cincinnati or up in Sandusky.
43:28
They they love it. It's a great time.
43:31
And so you, your business did well right out of the gate
43:34
because you have these speaking engagements, you know, you, you
43:37
know, you were known in the space.
43:39
And is that what just sort of continued to propel the growth
43:43
of the company or have there been other things along the way,
43:46
certain growth levers or marketing tactics that you guys
43:49
have tried, which have added fuel to the fire?
43:53
Yes, well, right there we we started off and we had really
44:00
four people and during the first five years we grew to 11 people.
44:07
So a pretty significant growth. And the we did this by we didn't
44:16
spend a whole lot of money on marketing in terms of, you know,
44:19
advertising. We did a little bit of
44:21
advertising in different magazines, but it was more
44:24
speaking, attending conferences and doing articles.
44:30
So we have really focused on doing white paper type articles
44:34
about the industry and different areas of hotels, resorts, water
44:38
parks, RV parks, golf courses to let and let our potential
44:45
clients be aware of some some key numbers or some key issues
44:50
that we feel you know should be people should be aware of.
44:54
And these have helped us gain a reputation in the industry for
45:00
thought leadership that has, I think, expanded our horizon in
45:05
terms of, you know, people calling us and asking for a
45:08
proposal on different projects. The other thing is just getting
45:13
keeping my name out there for different banks.
45:16
So banks typically hire appraisers based on lists and
45:20
approved lists and I got myself on quite a few lists on banks
45:27
and we were we were used by a number of different banks of
45:29
four different appraisal work. And the other piece is hotel
45:34
companies also have lists of approved that approved
45:38
feasibility consultants and consultants that they do impact
45:41
studies with. So I have been on some of those
45:45
lists and got myself on more. So we are currently on the list
45:48
of nearly all of big chains. So it's really very targeted a
45:52
marketing effort that we made as, as the we, we grew because
45:57
the business was there. But we in order to keep the
46:00
business, we have to keep marketing and reaching out to
46:03
people. The white papers that you
46:05
mentioned, how have you distributed those?
46:09
So, you know, this is the, the great thing about the Internet
46:12
age is that we have typically published an article and that
46:17
there are different either print magazines or online news
46:23
services that one can put the articles in.
46:26
And, and then we have our own database, which we have in our
46:31
database, we have over 6000 names that we send our articles
46:35
out to. But we, when we send them out
46:40
through these services that they would include like hotel Online
46:43
or Hotel News Now or Amusement Daily News or IAPA Daily News,
46:49
the Amusement Park Association. So these, these different
46:53
websites publish a Daily News alert and they allow you to put
46:57
your article in them if it's a quality enough article.
47:01
And that's what we've been successful doing.
47:04
OK, David, let's shift gears for a moment.
47:09
You know, you've had clearly a lot of success, you know,
47:13
business coming in the door very early on from the first time
47:16
that you opened, you know, culminating in a sale just very
47:21
recently. Our partnership that gives you,
47:24
you know, a landing spot for when you're ready for
47:26
retirement. But not everything in between is
47:31
all rainbows and sunshines, right?
47:33
There are ups and downs in every business.
47:37
I'd like to hear about one of those down cycles for you, how
47:41
you got through it and what you learned coming out the other
47:44
side. Yeah.
47:46
So I've with hotel leisure advisors.
47:49
I've gone through 2 down cycles. And then before that, I went
47:53
through two additional ones, but I wasn't the boss at that time.
47:56
So we'll focus on the 2 that I was the boss and that was in
48:01
2008 and 9:00 during the recession and then during COVID.
48:07
And in both cases, our business. So, you know, banks need
48:13
appraisal work all the time, but they tend to their fee structure
48:17
is is a bit low and the developers are much more unique
48:23
projects that require more time and more they want you, they
48:26
want a little more specialized expertise and they're willing to
48:30
pay a more fair fee for that. So, but when you're in a major
48:35
recession and COVID, the developer type clients kind of
48:41
they don't want to spend their money hiring a project because
48:44
they're afraid the economy is collapsing.
48:46
So in both of these times, business went down and then one
48:53
has to make a decision, what do you do?
48:55
And you know, you have your rent, you have your salaries,
48:59
you kind of people expect a certain amount of money.
49:02
And so the two were a little different between them.
49:06
So in the 2008 and 9, you know, this was a more traditional
49:10
recession. The stock market dropped a lot.
49:13
Our business dropped, you know, anywhere from somewhere between
49:18
15 and 30%. And the, we had to decide, we
49:24
actually did lay an employee off because we just, and then
49:28
everybody else, we, we did a bit of a pay cut and it was a very
49:33
challenging time. When you're a staff of 11 people
49:36
and lay off a person, it's, it's not a pleasant experience
49:41
because you feel bad for that person and you feel bad for, you
49:45
know what, what the morale that, that brings.
49:50
Luckily, that was the only, we only did it with one person.
49:53
And we, we, we really did a bit, we trying to focus on the
49:57
marketing and then the economy started improving and people
49:59
started calling. And you know, we, we got out of
50:02
it with the COVID time. We were back to the 11 people
50:07
and the, you know, when COVID hit, the business also dropped
50:14
off. And then in that first full
50:16
year, we were down 40% in our revenues.
50:19
So that's a big hit to take. So, but the government in this
50:25
time came out with these different programs which we did
50:29
go, we did enroll in both of them, the PPP loan and the
50:36
employee retention credit. So we did not lay anybody off
50:41
this time and people did work a little bit less hours.
50:46
Everybody kind of cut their schedule by 5 to 10%, but there
50:50
was no layoffs. And that was, you know, very
50:54
nice not to let anybody off. So I thought that government
50:58
program, although there's certainly portions of it that
51:01
one could argue was wasteful, but other portions of it I think
51:06
were very useful for a small business like ours.
51:10
So we tried to do more publishing during that time.
51:13
We, we tried to create research projects on our own that the
51:17
staff could work on that. We then published the data as
51:20
kind of a, we, we did a study on every water park in, in North
51:23
America as to who was open and closed because a lot of water
51:28
parks were, you know, depending on the state they were either
51:31
they couldn't open and in other states they were opening, but
51:34
not till late and they had social distancing and there was
51:37
a lot of things to really track that.
51:40
So we were calling every single one in the country to try to
51:43
gather this data. And it wasn't in my mind as much
51:46
as that we had to have this data as something for the staff to do
51:49
to keep us involved in what in our industry and what was
51:54
happening as we try, as I knew we, we, we were going to get out
51:57
of this. But it was a, you know, I had to
52:00
create enough things for people to do that we could pop, let the
52:05
industry know that hey, we were, we can't, we were following them
52:09
and we were tracking things, but at the same time waiting for the
52:13
cycle to change that we would get back into the swing of
52:17
things, which did happen. But it, you know, at that, that
52:20
after that one year, it was down so much.
52:22
And then every year since it's been the recovery and now we're
52:25
back to better than we were in 2019.
52:27
So that's good. So those projects that you found
52:31
for people to do, you know, during sort of the the worst
52:35
part of COVID, it was nice that you're able to hold on to folks
52:38
because of the PPP and the ERC government money that was
52:42
available. And you're finding tasks for
52:44
them to do to keep them busy, active, you know, not just
52:47
sitting here twiddling our thumbs.
52:49
Was it more about just keeping them busy, keeping them engaged?
52:54
Was it about reminding the industry that you're sort of
52:58
still there? Or did any of the data that you
53:00
guys collect at the time ultimately become useful for a
53:03
project? Yeah.
53:05
And it's a bit of a combination. It wasn't just busy work, it was
53:09
definitely, we were collecting data about hotels and water
53:12
parks concerning their, how COVID impacted them.
53:16
But the purpose was to then publish we, we were publishing a
53:20
monthly article about the industry and its impact, which
53:26
we, we hadn't been doing that level of publishing.
53:30
But in fact, you know, now we, we are, we're trying to continue
53:33
that almost at the same level. But we did also work to collect
53:38
additional data for our, we, we have a internal database of
53:43
financial statements for different hotels and resorts.
53:47
And we, we work to really collect more data for that
53:51
database and other, other databases that we try to keep
53:56
for our internal use concerning how different property types are
53:59
performing. We were trying to collect more
54:01
information for those. So it was definitely a
54:03
combination of trying to build our internal internal
54:07
information database as well as help the industry with more
54:11
relevant information. You know, with with COVID now,
54:15
five years later, what happened with COVID, you just wonder if
54:19
it could ever happen again that way.
54:21
Because with all of the backlash and everything and just the way
54:25
the shutdowns were so haphazard, I don't know that what we
54:31
learned then is necessarily going to apply again directly,
54:34
but maybe indirectly gives us a framework of what what could
54:37
happen. Yeah.
54:39
I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that, you know, between
54:41
now and the time that you retire that we don't have, whether it's
54:44
COVID trigger, you know, like a a pandemic again or, or, or
54:48
anything that you know, sparks that kind of decline.
54:51
But if something were to happen where business slows down
54:55
significantly again, what lessons might you take from the
54:58
COVID experience or from the 2008 nine recession to help you
55:02
guys get through that? Like how do you think you would
55:04
approach that a little bit differently?
55:07
It was just having patience is the, the key issue is having
55:10
patience that you're, you know that it's the, the services we
55:16
provide are needed. They are needed by banks,
55:20
they're needed by developers, by attorneys, but there may be some
55:26
group of people that could be affected more so than another.
55:30
So you have to remind all of the groups that, hey, you're here
55:34
and that you're available if, if there is a big downturn, which
55:39
they know some of those groups, you know, like currently we are
55:41
doing less work for banks and more work for developer types.
55:45
But that doesn't mean we couldn't do work for banks.
55:47
Again, it's just that's not what we're doing currently.
55:51
So it's, it's sometimes it's a matter of trying to pivot
55:54
yourself a bit and or being being prepared to pivot to a
56:01
different group of people who need your services but maybe
56:04
aren't currently using you because of whatever reason that
56:07
they're just not used to using you at this very moment in time.
56:12
So again, recording this in October of 2025, the economy for
56:17
a lot of folks, there's, there's cracks in the foundation there.
56:20
You know, a lot of industries have slowed down.
56:22
What are you guys seeing? What, what does it look like
56:25
right now? What do you think sort of the
56:26
next 6 to 12 months look like? Yes.
56:30
So for the industries we track, there is definitely a
56:33
bifurcation. You have the wealthier people
56:37
and I'm going to pull that at the top. 20% are travelling more
56:40
than ever and willing to spend more and the resorts and
56:44
attractions that cater to them are doing very well.
56:48
Well, the many water parks in general, particularly outdoor
56:52
ones, attract people in the middle or lower middle income
56:57
levels in addition to some higher income, but they're not
56:59
focused on higher income people. And those managers have told me
57:04
that there's been this year was not as good for them because
57:08
that lower middle income people are struggling more.
57:12
They're not there's no more government aid and they have
57:16
less money to spend on a recreational activities like
57:19
going to a water park. So those resorts are having to
57:23
pivot a bit. So in terms of our studies, we
57:26
just, we're trying to keep this in, keep factoring this in that,
57:31
you know, many of many of the projects we study are trying to
57:35
appeal to a broad range of audience, while a minority of
57:39
projects we study are focusing on the wealthier people.
57:43
So it's making sure that whatever study we're doing is
57:47
considering The Who the target market is and what type of
57:54
audience what, what is the income level of the audience
57:57
they wanted to get. So that's just a key thing to be
58:00
thinking about with our studies. Now with our company overall,
58:05
it's just being flexible and trying to be able.
58:11
You know, the one thing I've always tried to do with our firm
58:13
is whenever somebody calls with a hospitality type project, a
58:17
leisure or hospitality, we don't just say yes or no immediately.
58:21
We try to ponder how could we help that client.
58:26
And so we have expanded our services a bit over the years.
58:31
Originally we were doing focusing on appraisals and
58:33
feasibility studies. We then added economic impact
58:36
studies and now in recent years we've added management company
58:42
and developer analysis to help clients to find a, a partner
58:46
developer or a partner management company for their
58:49
project. So we've tried to when the
58:53
client has a need on it. It's, it's in the industry
58:56
sector, but it's our, our focus. Is there an area that we can
59:00
help? David, what's your superpower?
59:06
That is, you know, I'm an analyst by nature and I have
59:11
always had a very good ability to look at a set of numbers and
59:16
very quickly determine a what they're what those numbers are,
59:21
are telling us. And this involves, you know,
59:26
when I'm talk to a hotel and he they tell me their occupancy
59:29
percentage. I'm able to, I'm never that good
59:32
with names, but I'm very good with numbers.
59:35
And the business I'm in is very focused on numbers and what is
59:40
an appropriate occupancy percentage or what is an
59:43
appropriate water park attendance for a project.
59:46
And that's what my brain is able to remember very well.
59:50
And that has helped me tremendously in this career and
59:54
allowed me to to be able to work on so many different projects
59:58
because of that ability to to to really be able to focus on the
1:00:02
numbers quickly and efficiently. Are you leveraging AI in any way
1:00:07
inside your practice yet? We are using it a bit, so we
1:00:12
subscribe to a firm called Placer, and Placer uses AI to
1:00:19
track the visitation levels and buildings all over the United
1:00:25
States. So they track the cell phones of
1:00:29
1/3 of Americans and utilize that data to then determine how
1:00:35
much approximate attendance goes to an amusement park or a hotel
1:00:38
or a museum or some other attraction.
1:00:42
So we are subscribed to them early on and that data has been
1:00:46
very valuable in helping us come up with these projections for
1:00:50
different projects that we do internally.
1:00:55
We have tried AI, but the numbers are frequently wrong.
1:01:00
But the, the text is, you know, like AI can help you create a
1:01:04
paragraph that you can then edit.
1:01:07
But when you try to look at numbers from AI, they are almost
1:01:10
always wrong and you cannot rely on that for pricing or for
1:01:15
revenues or things like that. So that's where I, I don't feel
1:01:21
like AI is going to take away our business because the, even
1:01:25
though you may be able to start doing more writing with AI,
1:01:28
which we're doing a little, we're considering it a little
1:01:30
bit, but the, the numbers themselves are just not
1:01:35
accurate. And I don't see how it'll ever
1:01:36
get accurate because a lot of this data is confidential.
1:01:40
OK, So if I were to go to ChatGPT right now and ask for
1:01:45
occupancy rate in the Wisconsin Dells, it's going to give me
1:01:48
numbers and you're going to look at them and you're going to look
1:01:51
at the the real numbers that you know from being in the industry
1:01:54
and and they're very different. Yes.
1:01:56
I mean, it may have some number that was published, but it does
1:02:00
not know, you know, most of the hotels are confidential and
1:02:07
those numbers are only the, the people who share those are only
1:02:12
to a qualified person who's for one specific reason they don't,
1:02:15
they don't want them published in the newspaper or something
1:02:17
like that. No, what do you do for fun
1:02:21
outside of work, hobbies, special interests?
1:02:25
So I do like to travel. So my luckily my wife and I both
1:02:29
like to travel, which is one of these things.
1:02:31
She's always, every time I go somewhere, though, she's always
1:02:34
like, Oh, we have to visit some property because that's part of
1:02:38
one of my assignments may be in the place where travelling, but
1:02:41
I try to keep those two things separate.
1:02:44
But I do I'm AI do and keep fit. And so everyday I'll either go
1:02:49
swimming or, or I want maybe walk to work.
1:02:53
I live about a mile and 1/2 from my office and I do like hiking
1:02:57
and biking. So I, I, I, I'm the type of
1:03:00
person that I just everyday I need to do some kind of a
1:03:03
physical activity or else I go stir crazy.
1:03:07
So I'm I'm usually doing one of those things.
1:03:11
David, I've just got one more question for you today, but
1:03:13
before I ask it, I want to knock out a few things.
1:03:16
First of all, anybody who wants to get in touch with David, you
1:03:20
can find theirwebsite@hladvisors.com.
1:03:23
There's a contact us form that you can use to contact the
1:03:27
company, and you'll also find David's own personal e-mail
1:03:29
address there if you want to reach out to him directly.
1:03:32
And as a reminder for listeners, if you want to get more
1:03:35
employees access to benefits that won't hurt them financially
1:03:38
and carries a financial upside for the company, reach out to us
1:03:42
at Add Back benefits.com. Finally, if you take just a
1:03:45
moment to leave us a comment or review on your favorite podcast
1:03:49
app, you'll hold a special place in my heart forever.
1:03:52
So last question for you, David, you and I reconnect one year
1:03:55
from today. You're from now and you're
1:03:57
celebrating something big. What's that big thing you hope
1:04:00
to be celebrating a year from now?
1:04:03
Well, I, I thought of three things.
1:04:05
One would be my grandson will be two years old and that will be
1:04:09
very exciting. Secondly, that this partnership
1:04:12
with ADCII can report to you was a great success.
1:04:17
And thirdly, that the University of Livingstonia has gotten their
1:04:20
longway campus open. So those are the things I'm
1:04:23
hoping a year from now may have occurred.
1:04:26
All right, we'll check back in to see how things are going.
1:04:29
David Sangree, I'm going to be the first to thank you for
1:04:33
sharing both your time and your story with us today.
1:04:35
I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.
1:04:37
I appreciate it being here. Folks, that's a wrap on another
1:04:40
episode of the Inspired Stories podcast.
1:04:42
Thanks for learning with us today.