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156 - Ukraine with Patrick Troy-Brandt · The Dr. Joe Show

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  Joe Strand.
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  Ladies and gentlemen,
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  boys and girls and friends, beyond the binary.
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  Welcome to the Dr. Joe Show.
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  Tom, that was so great.
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  That was so great.
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  Our previous guest will be really pleased that we're changing the opening format
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  as we should be. You know, that was a
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  that was a really important show that we did a few nights ago.
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  So a couple of weeks.
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  A week ago this week.
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  Yeah.
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  But I believe it was two weeks ago but it still it feels like yesterday
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  because it's just getting more and more topical.
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  It is. It is.
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  But but I appreciate that.
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  And a great introduction.
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  Has your week been? My week has been.
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  Not bad at all.
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  Dr. Joe, I've been enjoying the warm if rainy weather.
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  I actually love it's when it's raining and 60.
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  You know, I feel it's bracing.
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  I feel like a like a pirate.
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  I don't. Know.
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  It's so funny you say that because I love it when it's any weather.
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  In my sixties, because it's. Oh,
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  sorry, I can't speak up.
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  Pirate weather.
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  I will actually be I'm excited because I'm heading to Puerto Rico next week.
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  Next Tuesday, San Juan from the next.
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  I'm not going to give the dates away.
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  I don't get I don't want to get ambushed. But.
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  I haven't seen a palm tree in about five years.
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  And I'm very excited to just point and look, there it is.
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  It's so great and it's going to be lovely for you.
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  Well, deserved well-deserved vacation.
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  It is.
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  But it does remind me, you know, that
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  it costs $3 for a slice of pie
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  in Jamaica and $2 for a slice of pie in the Dominican.
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  Yeah, those are the Pirates of the Caribbean.
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  Thank you.
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  Thank you.
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  Okay, so actually, we are talking about some serious stuff tonight.
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  This is a global we really are in the midst of this crazy global crisis.
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  I mean, we've got we've got all this tension here
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  in the United States and this huge division between groups.
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  And now there's
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  a war going on where and gone?
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  Well, it's a lot of us are eating humble pie
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  because for a month up to it, I was laughing it off like,
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  oh, yeah, this is this a story every year where,
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  you know, Putin's, you know, doing a saber rattling
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  and it's like, yeah, well, yeah, you're just going to egg it on, you know,
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  because Putin is not a man.
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  I have closely studied
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  but I've never
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  I never envisioned him to be irrational. Hmm.
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  And this is a very irrational action, it seems.
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  It sure seems that way.
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  It sure seems limbic.
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  And yet there may be something prefrontal and contrived about it.
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  I don't know.
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  I'm not I'm not an expert in war, but we we are really lucky to have an expert,
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  somebody who's been there, who who is who has served our country.
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  So, Tom, can can you introduce our guest for tonight, please?
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  I would love to talk to Jeff.
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  So long time friend of the show.
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  Graduate of our studio, friend of Brennan Mulhern.
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  Does Joe, that's your son in law?
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  Yes, it is.
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  And Army veteran who has seen tours of duty in both Iraq and Afghanistan
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  and is now a professional actor in New York City.
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  Welcome back.
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  Patrick Joy, Brad. And Gary.
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  Patrick. The intro. Thomas, thank you.
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  Thank you.
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  Thank you so much for being here tonight.
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  I'm just wondering how how are you doing it?
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  Because it's progress here.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  Well, you know, I will say the same way I've been answering that question
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  for a long time now.
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  I think considering everything
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  that literally every person on the planet is going through right now,
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  tougher than
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  normal times, I guess I am doing
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  I consider myself blessed, you know, and I think I'm doing
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  pretty well here in Brooklyn with my wife and my little black cat.
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  It's a very dark time in the world right now.
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  And, you know, folks know that I just released my latest
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  book, Unleashing the Power of Respect, the I Am Approach.
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  And I I'm really worried, worried about
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  what's going on in the world because there is enormous disrespect.
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  There's enormous anger there's fear.
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  And I worry that it will turn into depression and people will just
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  shut down and be indifferent and say there's nothing we can do.
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  But I am really curious from your point of view
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  and maybe maybe you could just refresh
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  for some of our listeners a little bit about your history and story and.
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  Sure. Yeah, no problem at all.
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  Yeah.
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  And I wanted I did just want on that point of
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  I certainly appreciate
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  being called an expert.
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  And I would say, yeah, maybe there are a lot of aspects
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  that I'm very well versed and educated in on
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  the aspect of war and going through war and combat and whatnot.
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  But I do also want to stress that
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  every every situation is very unique
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  and every, you know,
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  every crisis, war,
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  everything is is very unique to the individuals that experience it.
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  And that's part of what I want to kind of get deeper into and with you all tonight.
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  But yeah, so to start with,
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  I so I started my
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  Army career in 2004
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  after graduating from high school, left for basic training.
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  Three weeks after graduating, I enlisted
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  in the Army as an airborne infantryman.
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  So went through Army basic training, infantry
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  school and airborne school and
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  graduated from all that in 24
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  November.
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  And I was stationed at Fort Bragg with the 82nd Airborne Division.
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  So that was November 2004.
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  In February 2005, I was off to my first deployment to Afghanistan,
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  spent 13 months in Afghanistan,
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  came back to the United States for a year, then went back,
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  then went over to Iraq for the first time for a year, back to the States
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  for a year, back again to Iraq for another year.
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  And then I got out.
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  I was like I said, airborne infantry.
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  I rose to the rank of sergeant before I left.
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  And I guess that's that's about
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  the glossing over of it.
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  Yeah.
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  What is the Airborne Infantry?
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  Yeah. So,
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  you know, paratroopers, airborne infantry means that
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  we are the guys who jump out of planes on parachutes
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  made very famous in World War Two, you know, the Band of Brothers
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  series is all about the first American paratroopers.
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  So anyway, the idea is that your infantry
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  people, your foot soldiers who jump out of the plane
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  in order to quickly secure
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  enemy territory or occupied territory.
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  Now, with that said, that is an asset
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  that we had, a capability that we trained for a lot.
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  I did a lot of training jumps, you know,
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  but I never jumped into combat because it was never really necessary
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  with the type of operations that we were doing.
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  I was on trucks, Humvees,
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  or marching around on our feet for it.
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  And so.
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  Yeah, I think that's a blessing really
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  in a way that you didn't have to put yourself at that risk.
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  It must be quite an experience jumping out of a plane,
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  even in the best of times and then into a war.
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  Like, whoa.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, you know, not to digress, I guess too much into it, but I will say
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  with the mindset that I had at the time being a, you know, 18, 19, 20 year old
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  testosterone driven kid
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  you know, you kind of want,
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  you know, it's kind of a rite of passage to jump to have a combat jump.
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  So you know, you kind of have this feeling if you're in the airborne
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  and you're doing the stuff anyway, you might as well get the full
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  glory of it and get the mustard stain, what they call it.
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  And that's a little gold star in the middle of your parachutist badge.
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  That's what they call your little mustard stain
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  if you've made a combat jump, which very few of us have but that.
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  Yeah, so, you know, it all falls into the, I have to say, toxic masculinity of,
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  you know, training for
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  a very deadly sport.
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  Deadly sport.
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  Mm hmm.
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  Tom, what do you think of that phrasing, a deadly sport?
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  Well, I think it's appropriate.
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  I, I do think, Patrick, you've made the deliberate choice words kits.
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  That's a, that's the draw for a lot of people.
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  And this thing is that the promise of the adrenaline rush?
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  You know, we're seeing that right now
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  with the call
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  to arms in the Ukraine at in Ukraine
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  you know, we saw that.
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  We see that in all these foreign engagements,
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  foreign fighters, you know, and Americans wanting to
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  you know,
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  take the plane trip, all the cost in the investment
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  to get themselves over into a battle when just purely logistically,
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  you could take all of that money and fully support European foreign fighters
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  that are a lot closer to the engagement and maybe have a lot more at stake.
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  You know, instead of
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  yielding to your own sense of adventurism,
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  maybe to go and and see what war is all about.
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  I mean, this is really the I am of war.
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  I mean, I think you know, the I am is saying we're always doing the best we can.
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  But this how do we wrap our head around this, even though it's war?
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  So we were off air.
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  We were talking a little bit about your understanding of the history
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  of Ukraine and comparing Russian versus American army.
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  We would like to start well.
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  I want to well, maybe start by saying so.
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  I am you know, I'm I'm passionate about it about a lot of aspects
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  that revolve around Ukraine right now and the conflict.
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  But I also I think I want to start by
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  saying we are seeing on unprecedented misinformation
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  circulating around this this conflict on both sides on on,
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  you know, pro-Russian side on pro Ukrainian side, pro-Western forces side.
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  So when you invited me to talk about this situation tonight,
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  I really wanted to make a point
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  to, uh, not get on any sort of personal platform here
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  on my beliefs of what's going on.
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  But I really want to try and give some just maybe objective
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  information out for people who are trying to follow along.
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  But you switch to one news source that says one thing, another said another
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  everyone's saying everything else on Facebook.
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  So maybe just starting with a baseline understanding
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  of the broad history of Ukraine and the general territory.
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  And I think the first thing to to understand about Ukraine
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  is that it's known as the breadbasket of Europe, right?
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  So it is an extremely fertile land that yields
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  agriculturally
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  a gross, you know, overt amount
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  that that is very sought
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  after by basically any large force that has happened
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  upon it throughout history.
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  So where does the Russian connection come in?
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  Well, that actually comes in from
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  Norse people, Scandinavians known as roots.
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  You know, we might associate them with Vikings.
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  That's kind of a very specific term Viking,
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  but it is these Viking people that sort of migrated
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  from the Scandinavian area in around the 19th century
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  and found this very fertile land and started intermingling with
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  the people that were already there.
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  So that's sort of the first example that you have of a large
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  hegemonic force coming in and
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  mixing their
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  culture in with the local culture and sort of taking over.
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  Next instance of that you have is the Golden Horde,
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  which is the Mongolian
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  take over of Asia and most of Europe,
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  a lot of Europe and the 13th through 16th century.
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  So you have these Mongolians coming in to the UK to Ukraine, the Ukrainian region
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  as it's, you know, sort of colloquially known.
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  And so their culture gets imposed on these on these people.
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  Now and later on down you have the Polish, Lithuanian Commonwealth.
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  They come in about 300 years later
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  after the Mongols have sort of collapsed their empire.
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  That's another power vacuum that's left in this very fertile
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  breadbasket for the Polish, Lithuanian Commonwealth.
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  And the most important thing about the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth
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  is this is where you're getting the quote unquote Western European influence
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  in the region. Okay.
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  As this is happening, what will become
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  the Russians there now in Moscow right now?
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  And they're just that, you know, they're the roots people at this point.
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  And Moscow is still very much influenced by Mongolian culture.
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  So this is the so be the 17th century, 16th
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  17th century is when you're first seeing this divide in this clashing
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  of what we known as Western and Eastern European influence.
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  Right.
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  And that's just the beginning.
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  You know, then now going into later on, you have the
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  the Kazak culture, which maybe a lot of people are familiar
• 1:27:01
  with that term, but don't quite know what it is.
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  And Kazakh culture,
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  it can parallel what we understand about Vikings in that
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  a Viking was a very specific job if you will.
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  It was a someone who went out and raided and and saw land.
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  It wasn't everyone, you know, a calling, a.
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  Verb, right?
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  Yes. Right. To go, Viking to go.
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  But yeah, exactly.
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  So Cossacks was originally
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  from a term for free people,
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  bandits, people that live in these ungovernable territory.
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  That's the Ukrainian territory.
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  They have this history of autonomy and they have this history of
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  of people coming in and trying to force their government systems on them.
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  And then bucking against that.
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  It's the birthplace of modern anarchy,
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  which comes a little later.
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  So these Kazak people, you know, the Cossacks
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  later on into the 19th and 20th century, they get divided.
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  Some of them
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  go to support Imperial Russia, some of them go to support the Bolshevik.
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  They will come to be the Communists
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  Oh. So look, and maybe something the
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  that that is becoming evident is how very complicated and intertwined
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  not too distant politics are in this region.
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  And this all feeds into
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  World War Two.
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  And in World War Two, you know, you have again, you have these two powers.
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  You have fascism and communism both vying
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  for the people and the land of Ukraine.
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  And you have instances like many other places
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  in World War Two where people that were suffering
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  under a current
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  invading force looked for another power to help them.
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  And in some situations, that power was a fascist power.
• 1:28:56
  You know, it happened throughout Europe.
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  And I think that we need to be careful
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  about judging
• 1:29:06
  the type of collaborations
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  that the type of, you know, deals that people made
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  literally when their backs are against the wall.
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  And I mean this on both sides of the house.
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  And I think this is a very another very important thing.
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  Oh, that leads into, you know, the AM
• 1:29:23
  regarding the Ukraine, regarding, you know, uh,
• 1:29:27
  you know, you have one side saying, well, it's full of Nazis
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  and you have another side saying, well, you know, communists are invading.
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  And I
• 1:29:37
  I think the answer to both of those are yes and no.
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  You know,
• 1:29:42
  there are extremist
• 1:29:44
  forces that have been able to take hold in Ukraine
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  because people have had to turn to them out of desperation
• 1:29:53
  for defeats.
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  Face up Italian.
• 1:29:58
  Yeah, that that's a very famous example.
• 1:30:02
  Yeah. Which example is that?
• 1:30:04
  So from what I know is that
• 1:30:07
  there was there was a ultranationalist militia group called Asal Battalion
• 1:30:11
  that has been like formally inducted into the Ukrainian military Yes.
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  And yeah, that is true.
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  And they are often pointed
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  to us as an example of
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  making a general statement about Ukraine being
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  a, you know, right wing
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  nationalist fascist,
• 1:30:36
  you know, government and country and nation
• 1:30:41
  not with the eyes of Italian.
• 1:30:43
  That's
• 1:30:45
  again, this is something that I am
• 1:30:47
  hesitant to go down to deep in before
• 1:30:51
  I start saying things that I don't know are misinformation or information.
• 1:30:55
  But, you know, you definitely do have people out there
• 1:30:58
  arguing that they were brought into the fold
• 1:31:02
  of government supervision for that reason, too.
• 1:31:06
  They basically said they could you know, people could sort of keep an eye
• 1:31:09
  on what they were doing, you know, instead of them being this rogue force.
• 1:31:13
  That's an argument. I'm but, you know,
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  I can't say.
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  So let me try to understand and clarify this. So
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  the the breadbasket I mean, the fact that it's
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  a breadbasket in and of itself is a very appealing resource to have.
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  That's a huge value.
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  And so other groups would want to take that
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  or at least have access to you know, if it's not being shared,
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  then they're going to take it and do something with it. So
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  and the Ukraine has sort of been
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  in this position 4000 years.
• 1:31:53
  Sounds like the Vikings and then the Mongols and then the Cossacks and
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  so is the Ukraine.
• 1:32:01
  And then and then was it was Ukraine part of the the Soviet Union at some point?
• 1:32:06
  Yeah. Yes, they were right.
• 1:32:09
  Yeah.
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  And so the Soviet Union at that point
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  was a collection of countries.
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  And then my understanding is that under I think it was
• 1:32:19
  Reagan and Gorbachev, it collapsed.
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  The Soviet Union collapsed, and then it was Russia.
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  And then all the state it's, if you will, became their own independent country.
• 1:32:32
  Yes. And
• 1:32:33
  just geographically, my understanding is that
• 1:32:37
  the Ukraine border was directly on Russia.
• 1:32:42
  Right.
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  And so
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  does that, do you think, from from your experience in the military,
• 1:32:51
  would that then create
• 1:32:53
  either a target or a concern or a tension,
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  depending on on the relationship between these two countries,
• 1:33:01
  if they're bordering each other, sort of turn into away?
• 1:33:04
  So we're turning to a tug of war, though, as well.
• 1:33:08
  It's it's I think it's fair,
• 1:33:12
  maybe a little more accurate to say it's an identity crisis.
• 1:33:17
  You know, because basically so maybe this would be
• 1:33:20
  a good time to transition to more to talking about Putin.
• 1:33:24
  Yes. Okay.
• 1:33:25
  So I want to preface this by saying that a lot
• 1:33:30
  of this information that I have, I have someone who's close to me who
• 1:33:36
  was in the CIA, a career CIA agent,
• 1:33:41
  served in Russia in the nineties
• 1:33:46
  went on later to become a station chief
• 1:33:49
  in Europe and retire.
• 1:33:52
  And he actually had dinner with Putin
• 1:33:57
  back in the day, back when Putin was
• 1:33:59
  was working for Russian intelligence
• 1:34:03
  and the CIA person,
• 1:34:07
  they you know, they they majored in Russian.
• 1:34:12
  Their specialty was Russian history.
• 1:34:15
  And so that's sort of so the beat that they have on
• 1:34:18
  Putin is basically
• 1:34:22
  he's been planning this for over 20 years.
• 1:34:25
  You know, this anyone that is in the intelligence community
• 1:34:28
  that has been monitoring the situation saw this as an inevitability
• 1:34:34
  that Russia was going to invade Ukraine
• 1:34:37
  because Russia
• 1:34:40
  people and Russians, Putin among them
• 1:34:43
  believe that Ukraine is part of Russia
• 1:34:46
  and that it was separated as a
• 1:34:51
  device to
• 1:34:52
  break the power, you know, of Eastern Europe
• 1:34:55
  in favor of Western Europe and
• 1:35:00
  Ukraine.
• 1:35:00
  Is edging closer and closer towards European Union joining them.
• 1:35:05
  Which
• 1:35:06
  one major thing that
• 1:35:08
  Putin fears out of that is a cultural revolution within Ukraine.
• 1:35:12
  That's that's one of the main concerns, you know, that they will become
• 1:35:16
  culturally more like the West in the east and just provide,
• 1:35:20
  you know, add to that downfall
• 1:35:24
  he basically what this landed in
• 1:35:28
  is a failed intel on Putin's part.
• 1:35:31
  That's why Ukraine became such a mess, because it was his idea to invade
• 1:35:37
  and 48 hours later have a whole lockdown of the entire country.
• 1:35:41
  And that's what everyone else thought was going to happen.
• 1:35:43
  Because Russian army relies heavily relies heavily on the railroad system.
• 1:35:48
  And because Ukraine borders Russia,
• 1:35:51
  they are covered in borders with railroad tracks.
• 1:35:56
  And so, yeah, the whole the whole neighbor, you know,
• 1:36:00
  that that was the major part.
• 1:36:02
  I want to come back to this idea that that you raised at the end
• 1:36:05
  that people thought it was just going to be done, that
• 1:36:09
  the Russians would come in and consider their huge compared to Ukraine.
• 1:36:14
  I mean, they're they're massive.
• 1:36:18
  And the expectation
• 1:36:19
  that this horrible expectation was that this was just going to be done,
• 1:36:23
  they were just going to come and take the country.
• 1:36:25
  Mission accomplished.
• 1:36:26
  Right.
• 1:36:27
  So so first of all, why why would people think that
• 1:36:32
  and then we get into probably comparing
• 1:36:35
  strategies or the army or.
• 1:36:38
  Well, I think that it's
• 1:36:41
  well, a especially us in the West.
• 1:36:44
  It's sort of what we're used to seeing, you know,
• 1:36:47
  ever since like Desert Storm.
• 1:36:49
  I mean, anytime a large force as gone in to, you know,
• 1:36:55
  take care of whatever they're going to take care of in a much smaller force,
• 1:37:00
  you know, we're used to modern technology and planes and drones and tanks.
• 1:37:05
  And we just conceive of this, you know, this blitzkrieg
• 1:37:09
  developed by the by the Nazis this lightning war.
• 1:37:12
  And that's, I think, just kind of what we're used to
• 1:37:18
  but it was a
• 1:37:22
  I'm going to paraphrase this quote because I wasn't prepared to say it,
• 1:37:26
  but General Pershing, who was a the general of the Army in World War One,
• 1:37:32
  said something along the lines of
• 1:37:35
  infantry wins, battles, logistics wins wars.
• 1:37:40
  So this is really the key difference here.
• 1:37:43
  This is the the the logistics of the Russian Army is
• 1:37:48
  is really the crux of of why we're in the situation.
• 1:37:51
  We're in that and the
• 1:37:54
  civilian reaction
• 1:37:56
  of Ukraine to the Russian invasion, which
• 1:38:00
  essentially Putin believed that he was going to be seen
• 1:38:03
  as a liberator to most of the country, that people were going to come in here,
• 1:38:08
  you know, hugging the soldiers and helping them out and,
• 1:38:13
  you know, I think anyone who has seen any 5 minutes
• 1:38:16
  of the war has seen that's very much not the case, that he has met
• 1:38:20
  staunch resistance on the civilian front, which
• 1:38:25
  I can definitely speak from experience that
• 1:38:30
  in modern warfare,
• 1:38:32
  when your objective is not to just clear
• 1:38:36
  a city block of all life and roll through
• 1:38:40
  a big army will be slowed to a crawl
• 1:38:43
  with civilian resistance and insurgency.
• 1:38:47
  It's and one of the main things is that
• 1:38:50
  they're attacking the logistic supplies of the Russian army.
• 1:38:54
  You know,
• 1:38:57
  so the way the
• 1:38:58
  Russian army is set up, though, is
• 1:39:01
  so with them, they regiment their supply chain.
• 1:39:05
  All right. I'm going to try to see if I can.
• 1:39:07
  So what does that mean to regiment? Right.
• 1:39:09
  So what that means, basically, so the higher ups, right, the
• 1:39:12
  the officers back in Moscow or whatever
• 1:39:17
  the the guys in charge, they determine
• 1:39:20
  how a resupply is going to work during this operation.
• 1:39:24
  You know, say, for example, and say, all right, in three days,
• 1:39:26
  you're going to be at this checkpoint.
• 1:39:28
  We're going to have 40 cases of fuel and 20 bucks of ammunition.
• 1:39:33
  Then at this checkpoint, four days later, you're going to get your food
• 1:39:36
  and your water.
• 1:39:37
  This is you know, I'm making this up, for example. But
• 1:39:40
  so that is logistics leading strategy.
• 1:39:43
  So then the lower down the boots on the ground have to plan accordingly.
• 1:39:46
  And they have to meet this these expectations
• 1:39:49
  of this whole timeline, or else everything starts falling apart.
• 1:39:52
  The way the American Army works, it's different because
• 1:39:57
  we have strategy, leading logistics.
• 1:40:01
  We have the people planning the operations on the ground saying, well,
• 1:40:05
  we're going to need this, this and this before we even set off.
• 1:40:08
  And then in four days, we're going to need this, this and this and this.
• 1:40:11
  And the higher ups, they adjust
• 1:40:14
  that maybe to budgeting or, you know, their own supply demands.
• 1:40:18
  But that is how the system works.
• 1:40:19
  So there's a lot more independent thought by the units moving about
• 1:40:27
  that's one major thing.
• 1:40:28
  But logistics.
• 1:40:29
  So so let's just stick with that for a minute.
• 1:40:31
  So how does that change the way
• 1:40:34
  an Army basically works and functions?
• 1:40:37
  I mean, that sounds like a huge philosophical difference.
• 1:40:41
  Well, and so what
• 1:40:44
  experts are believe now is that essentially
• 1:40:47
  this invading force got loaded down
• 1:40:51
  with a lot of bullets and
• 1:40:54
  not a lot of fuel or food or anything to sustain.
• 1:40:59
  So basically,
• 1:41:01
  the Russian army works where
• 1:41:04
  they are an invading force, basically
• 1:41:07
  has enough supply to last three to four days, maybe
• 1:41:12
  because they're thinking they need more ammunition more bullets
• 1:41:14
  to keep the drive going.
• 1:41:16
  So then then they secure the area and that's when, you know,
• 1:41:19
  they can bring in their, you know, support.
• 1:41:21
  It's not like Americans we have a big technology advantage.
• 1:41:25
  We have technologically like air supply priority navigation systems.
• 1:41:31
  Most of the Russian army is using paper maps right now.
• 1:41:35
  So we can get
• 1:41:37
  resupplied much more on an Improvizational thing.
• 1:41:41
  But as soon as these guys get bogged down, as soon as they run out of fuel,
• 1:41:44
  we'll get as a tank, you know, as soon as you run out of food.
• 1:41:47
  What good is a soldier?
• 1:41:50
  So the machine just starts
• 1:41:52
  breaking down and you have these resistance fighters
• 1:41:55
  purposely going after fuel trucks, you know, and now working themselves to to
• 1:42:01
  to attack soft targets that really just
• 1:42:05
  grind the machine of war to a halt.
• 1:42:07
  And do you think part of this was the
• 1:42:13
  sort of misconception of Putin who thought, well,
• 1:42:16
  you know, we're going to go in
• 1:42:17
  and the Ukrainians are going to say,
• 1:42:18
  great, we're really glad you're here, which means we don't need to have
• 1:42:22
  the resupply.
• 1:42:23
  We don't need
• 1:42:23
  to have these sort of logistics in place because it's only going to be two days.
• 1:42:27
  Exactly.
• 1:42:28
  Yeah.
• 1:42:29
  His idea, he thought that the biggest thing
• 1:42:30
  you would have to do would get in Kiev and set up a puppet government
• 1:42:35
  as soon as he toppled the first one, and then the dominos would
• 1:42:39
  start falling in line
• 1:42:42
  and now
• 1:42:44
  he it's seeming like there's being backed and backed more into a corner,
• 1:42:48
  you know, because not only is are the people that were against Russia
• 1:42:52
  in the first place
• 1:42:54
  really
• 1:42:56
  getting angrier and angry and less patient with Putin,
• 1:42:59
  but the oligarchs back in Russia that were supporting him are now
• 1:43:04
  kind of stamping their feet and looking at their watches and saying,
• 1:43:07
  what is the hold up and where are we going to go from here?
• 1:43:12
  Because these oligarchs are not you know, these aren't
• 1:43:14
  the Russian oligarchs that have, you know, villas in Italy and all this.
• 1:43:18
  They are very centrally sort of invested in Russian culture
• 1:43:22
  and Russian assets and etc.
• 1:43:25
  But now this is, you know, so they're kind of protected from sanctions.
• 1:43:29
  But now just the the attrition of of Ukraine right
• 1:43:34
  now is what's weighing on them and sort of, you know, losing face
• 1:43:38
  by this, becoming a big, you know, cluster mess.
• 1:43:45
  I mean, it's against
• 1:43:47
  to bring the iam into this.
• 1:43:50
  It it.
• 1:43:53
  Goes again and again and again that human beings just want to feel valued.
• 1:43:57
  I mean, this is who we are.
• 1:43:59
  And so when one person or country tries to increase their value
• 1:44:04
  by decreasing somebody else's, we shouldn't be surprised
• 1:44:08
  that the other person or country is going to respond in kind.
• 1:44:12
  No way, man.
• 1:44:13
  You're not going to take my value.
• 1:44:15
  As a matter of fact, I'm going to take yours
• 1:44:18
  and that's
• 1:44:19
  that's been going on for so long
• 1:44:22
  I would keep doing it over and over.
• 1:44:27
  And I know there are a lot of people who are not listening to this
• 1:44:31
  who will say, well, they won't say anything because they're not listening.
• 1:44:35
  But that's the point.
• 1:44:36
  We need to be able to do something different.
• 1:44:39
  Here we are once again in this position
• 1:44:43
  where
• 1:44:45
  the same thing is going on.
• 1:44:47
  One country wants the bread basket in this case of another.
• 1:44:52
  But it's more than the bread basket, isn't it?
• 1:44:54
  It's a strategic position, because if Russia can take
• 1:44:58
  the Ukraine, it's a little closer to Europe.
• 1:45:01
  And is that
• 1:45:03
  the big plan?
• 1:45:04
  I mean, we don't know what the big plan is, but it's just it's mind
• 1:45:09
  boggling that here we are 20, 22
• 1:45:13
  and we're potentially on the brink of another world war.
• 1:45:18
  If I could amend your saying about one country invading another,
• 1:45:24
  I think it's one handful of men invading another okay.
• 1:45:29
  Because I think it's very easy to fall into the team sport.
• 1:45:34
  This is Ukraine versus Russia.
• 1:45:36
  Russia, bad, Ukraine good
• 1:45:40
  Russian people didn't ask for this.
• 1:45:42
  Right.
• 1:45:43
  And we're already, we're punishing them.
• 1:45:45
  We're set, we're imposing sanctions which aren't going to hit the island.
• 1:45:51
  Sanctions only ever kill the poor and vulnerable.
• 1:45:53
  I'm sorry.
• 1:45:54
  That's my soapbox statement, but we're cutting off Netflix you joking.
• 1:46:00
  Right? But.
• 1:46:01
  Right, yeah.
• 1:46:03
  The liquor stores throwing out Russian.
• 1:46:06
  It's freedom fries.
• 1:46:08
  Yep, yep.
• 1:46:09
  I made I, I was just talking with with
• 1:46:13
  with Nina about that that phenomenon.
• 1:46:16
  Post-9-11. Yeah, freedom fries.
• 1:46:19
  Yeah.
• 1:46:20
  I'm sorry.
• 1:46:20
  What's the freedom fries reference?
• 1:46:24
  So when Bush was saying
• 1:46:27
  you're with us or against us,
• 1:46:31
  I forget the
• 1:46:32
  whoever was French president at the time
• 1:46:35
  pretty much said that's that's dumb.
• 1:46:39
  You're dumb.
• 1:46:40
  And. Right, right.
• 1:46:42
  And so many American restaurants
• 1:46:45
  changed their menus from French fries to freedom fries.
• 1:46:50
  Right. Right.
• 1:46:52
  No, I agree with Tom.
• 1:46:55
  I mean, it's it's not a country.
• 1:46:58
  It's maybe not even a tried it is one individual to the next.
• 1:47:02
  And yet
• 1:47:06
  individuals here
• 1:47:07
  I mean, this is part of what you started talking about actually come in
• 1:47:10
  depending on which news station you listen to, you're going to have
• 1:47:14
  a particular view and opinion.
• 1:47:16
  And that's why
• 1:47:19
  that's what I'm trying to get people to think about the IAM for a moment
• 1:47:23
  because it it takes us and
• 1:47:27
  generalize is no army
• 1:47:30
  pun intended there but the basically saying we are one group
• 1:47:35
  we're you know we really all want the same thing
• 1:47:38
  so why do we have to keep taking from one person
• 1:47:43
  to get what we want the IAM is saying whenever you remind someone of their value
• 1:47:48
  you increase your own value and part of that is because then everyone is safer
• 1:47:53
  then we can keep it frontal and not go limbert
• 1:47:56
  we don't have to activate that fight flight freeze response
• 1:48:00
  respect leads to value and value leads to trust and it is that trust
• 1:48:05
  that we need to be able to have the discussions about our differences.
• 1:48:09
  How can this be the best someone can do?
• 1:48:13
  Remember because the I am is saying we're always at our current maximum potential,
• 1:48:17
  but if we don't like it, we could change it.
• 1:48:20
  And this is something we need to change.
• 1:48:22
  The global global level.
• 1:48:24
  This is also like an opportunity for people to realize that this is
• 1:48:30
  this is
• 1:48:30
  happening in a lot a lot of places. Yes.
• 1:48:34
  And you know, it was a bit of. A.
• 1:48:38
  It's very disappointing seeing so many people
• 1:48:41
  just completely out themselves saying this is the first major war
• 1:48:47
  between civilized nations. And.
• 1:48:51
  Yes, yes, there's a lot of
• 1:48:54
  I would say people telling on themselves
• 1:48:59
  rushing to aid one way.
• 1:49:02
  Was that a pun? Was that a pun?
• 1:49:05
  Was it Russian is aid.
• 1:49:08
  So it is now.
• 1:49:12
  I hear you were saying, but it's true that all this aid is coming.
• 1:49:16
  I mean, people that was it is because they're white.
• 1:49:19
  So let's you know, let's said that it's great.
• 1:49:24
  And and Yemen, you know.
• 1:49:26
  Yeah, we are we are bombing Yemen.
• 1:49:30
  We are starving Afghanistan.
• 1:49:33
  We are condemning Palestine.
• 1:49:39
  But we have
• 1:49:40
  very hard opinions on Ukraine
• 1:49:43
  and very definite opinions on Ukraine.
• 1:49:48
  So it's it's
• 1:49:51
  illuminating something for us.
• 1:49:55
  And that is,
• 1:49:56
  I guess, our biased and not just our perspective.
• 1:49:59
  You know, early on in the show, Patrick, you
• 1:50:02
  you said something about every experience is unique.
• 1:50:05
  Talking about war, I think, and could you talk more about that?
• 1:50:11
  Yeah, I guess, you know,
• 1:50:18
  I mean, I'm
• 1:50:19
  thinking I was thinking a lot about these
• 1:50:22
  these Russian soldiers that are that are going in.
• 1:50:25
  You know, they're actually actively invading
• 1:50:28
  Ukraine now.
• 1:50:29
  And how
• 1:50:32
  yeah, I can't 100% confirm that all of these stories are true.
• 1:50:35
  But, you know,
• 1:50:37
  Russian soldiers, we have videos of them,
• 1:50:40
  you know, surrendering to Ukrainian
• 1:50:43
  mothers and grandmothers who feed them and give them tea and
• 1:50:49
  these
• 1:50:49
  soldiers claiming they had no idea what they were involved with.
• 1:50:52
  They they thought, you know, some of them thought they were liberating.
• 1:50:56
  Some of them thought this was, you know, training
• 1:50:59
  you know, there are there are conscripts within the Russian army,
• 1:51:03
  you know, draft drafted soldiers
• 1:51:10
  yeah.
• 1:51:10
  And I get
• 1:51:12
  I don't know, I just
• 1:51:15
  I mean, very much, I think, to what you were talking about,
• 1:51:18
  Thomas, just a generalizing
• 1:51:23
  one, uniformed military,
• 1:51:25
  as as each one of these
• 1:51:28
  soldiers, you know, are the ardent,
• 1:51:31
  you know, diehard
• 1:51:35
  Putin loyalists that we that we, you know, think they all are.
• 1:51:39
  And just what
• 1:51:42
  what people will do when their troops don't think they have any other option,
• 1:51:47
  you know, that that people will pick up a gun and fight for a cause
• 1:51:54
  for all sorts of reasons,
• 1:51:55
  for all sorts of reasons for why they need to survive
• 1:52:02
  I don't know.
• 1:52:02
  I guess I just get overwhelmed trying to break down that that idea.
• 1:52:07
  But just the
• 1:52:10
  people can find themselves in a situation
• 1:52:12
  for any number of of reasons. You
• 1:52:17
  I mean,
• 1:52:18
  I'm glad that you bring it down to this personal level.
• 1:52:21
  I mean, it must be terrifying
• 1:52:25
  to to be a soldier,
• 1:52:28
  to be,
• 1:52:30
  you know,
• 1:52:32
  potentially killed.
• 1:52:33
  And that's that's what people are pretty and they're putting you in that position.
• 1:52:38
  You go in and you either kill someone or you be killed.
• 1:52:41
  Is that, in a way too simplistic with this, Patrick?
• 1:52:45
  No. I mean, I think
• 1:52:50
  yeah, I think it's overwhelming in its simplicity.
• 1:52:55
  That nothing else matters.
• 1:52:57
  You realize all of a sudden nothing else matters except for the next 30 seconds
• 1:53:02
  or 2 minutes or whatever.
• 1:53:06
  And, and, and also, you know,
• 1:53:11
  most of the rest of the world does not view their soldiers
• 1:53:14
  with the same amount of of patriotic support as Americans do.
• 1:53:19
  I think that's another thing that Americans don't understand.
• 1:53:21
  Like a lot of, you know, when were in Russia and in a lot
• 1:53:25
  of our neighboring countries, UK
• 1:53:29
  joining the military is kind of you didn't have any other option you know
• 1:53:34
  and people like why would you do that unless you were facing
• 1:53:37
  jail time
• 1:53:41
  and it's these
• 1:53:42
  and that's kind of the point is to have undesirables
• 1:53:46
  that are expendable you know in your armed forces.
• 1:53:48
  So if they are do the body start counting up?
• 1:53:52
  You know, people don't really mind too much.
• 1:53:56
  Some people might drive.
• 1:53:59
  Some people must mind the person who's
• 1:54:02
  waiting at home to find out whether their son or daughter.
• 1:54:06
  Yeah,
• 1:54:07
  they're not enough.
• 1:54:08
  Not the voices that are heard, I guess. Now,
• 1:54:13
  the other thing is, you know,
• 1:54:14
  I'm just thinking what this must be like
• 1:54:18
  for a soldier
• 1:54:21
  where their life is on the line.
• 1:54:24
  Their brain is going to be producing
• 1:54:27
  all this cortisol
• 1:54:30
  and adrenaline and and those things block other chemicals.
• 1:54:35
  We know that the cortisol blocks dopamine, which is a chemical of pleasure,
• 1:54:39
  and cortisol blocks oxytocin, which is the chemical of trust.
• 1:54:43
  So under these stress conditions,
• 1:54:46
  which we are under globally now,
• 1:54:50
  it's very hard to feel pleasure.
• 1:54:53
  And who do you trust?
• 1:54:55
  And I wonder whether this is part of what we're also looking at
• 1:54:59
  with Ukraine, but
• 1:55:01
  also with the division we have here in the United States,
• 1:55:04
  you know, with COVID was was was a common enemy.
• 1:55:08
  You know, somehow tribes need a common enemy
• 1:55:11
  we could have made COVID that common enemy.
• 1:55:15
  And unfortunately, we still need a common enemy, but
• 1:55:18
  we could have made cope with that and come together as a global community to say
• 1:55:22
  we're being invaded by this incredibly small thing
• 1:55:26
  that kills people.
• 1:55:28
  What do we do as a community to come together on that
• 1:55:32
  but that opportunity may have been missed.
• 1:55:35
  So we're coming to the end of the show with the I am approaches.
• 1:55:40
  You know, has has two truths, the four domains home, the social,
• 1:55:44
  the biological and the and I see how I see myself.
• 1:55:47
  I think other people see me interact
• 1:55:50
  because of these interactions, a small change can have a big effect.
• 1:55:55
  So, Patrick, what small change
• 1:55:57
  can you recommend to our listeners so that we can
• 1:56:00
  manage this?
• 1:56:02
  Well, I think I'll go back to the thing I said the first time
• 1:56:06
  I was on here, which is I would encourage people to
• 1:56:12
  actively listen with an intent
• 1:56:14
  to change their perspective.
• 1:56:18
  Yeah.
• 1:56:20
  Yeah.
• 1:56:22
  I hope people are doing that.
• 1:56:23
  And I,
• 1:56:24
  I hope people who are listening to this show will share it with other people.
• 1:56:29
  Who will then share it with others so that we can all change our perspective
• 1:56:32
  and realize how much we have in common.
• 1:56:35
  Right now we have so much at risk and yet so much opportunity
• 1:56:41
  to do something to bring ourselves together.
• 1:56:45
  The second truth of the I am everyone's got and I am
• 1:56:49
  everyone is interested through there.
• 1:56:50
  I see domain in what you think or feel about them,
• 1:56:54
  which has an effect in their biological domain
• 1:56:56
  because you know, it feels differently when you feel respected or disrespected
• 1:57:00
  in your part of someone's home or social domain, which means you control no one.
• 1:57:05
  You influence everyone.
• 1:57:07
  You get to choose the kind of influence you want to be.
• 1:57:10
  Patrick Troy Brown,
• 1:57:13
  what kind of influence do you want to be?
• 1:57:16
  Want to be a a pillar of support
• 1:57:19
  for anyone around me who needs it?
• 1:57:23
  Yeah, and I sure hope that that becomes
• 1:57:26
  a model for everyone.
• 1:57:29
  Everyone.
• 1:57:30
  You know, we're under a lot of stress globally.
• 1:57:35
  But one of the best ways to reduce your stress
• 1:57:39
  is to help reduce somebody else's stress,
• 1:57:42
  because as soon as you do that, you increase your value
• 1:57:46
  and you remind them of theirs, which is what we want.
• 1:57:50
  And as soon as he reminds them of their value,
• 1:57:53
  it increases oxytocin, that decreases cortisol.
• 1:57:55
  And you begin to trust your safer.
• 1:57:58
  We can create a safer world by simply
• 1:58:03
  wondering why people do what they do
• 1:58:07
  and approaching them in a way with respect that leads to value.
• 1:58:11
  And then they can trust you with their perspective.
• 1:58:14
  And then we can have a discussion. We can have a discussion.
• 1:58:16
  Even though I don't agree with someone,
• 1:58:19
  doesn't mean I don't respect them.
• 1:58:23
  Patrick, thank you so much for coming on again.
• 1:58:25
  You are you are one of our repeat guests
• 1:58:28
  and we really, really appreciate your time.
• 1:58:31
  Thank you so much for that and for everything you've done for us tonight.
• 1:58:35
  I thanks. Thank you. Nighttime.
• 1:58:38
  Romeo while did he do ever or was he just being wild?
• 1:58:44
  Who knows?
• 1:58:47
  I know.
• 1:58:52
  I know.