Latest / Identity at the Center / #191 - Microsoft Entra with Eric Woodruff

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#191 - Microsoft Entra with Eric Woodruff · Identity at the Center

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You're listening to the identity at the center podcast.
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This is the show that talks about identity and access
0:14
management and making sure you know who has access to what
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let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the
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sender podcast. I'm Jeff and that's gem a gem.
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Okay. Jeff.
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How are you? Oh not so bad yourself Jeff Jeff
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Jeff. No but I do take us off the know
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my going to take us off the rails today but I've been
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thinking about just kind of canceled please.
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No no. Well you have full edit
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capability. That's true.
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So okay. I've been thinking about one of
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the most fundamental concepts of identity and access management
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or Digital identity, whatever you want to call it and it's the
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word trust. And what does the word trust
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mean? I'm going to get back to that
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but I also was thinking about I think is the opposite of trust
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when it comes to Identity which is anonymity and anonymity.
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On the Internet is more than just a minor thing.
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I mean I think it's it's kind of like a fundamental concept.
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Do you see what's going on with Twitter?
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Right? And to me, Twitter exemplified
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not only, you know, not solely responsible but kind of the
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Cesspool of the internet if you will, right.
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And I'm not talking about sis, where are you?
1:40
Check out our Twitter Handle by the biggest festivals and Ideas,
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he podcast. How's that for commercial but it
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is and I think it's the fact I think it's a not anonymity, that
1:50
drives a lot of it. I mean, I think your Twitter
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like you have a lot of people who will be very bold in their
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own name, but a lot of us like you can't be too bold in your
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private, you know, in your Communications that are in the
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public assigned to your true identity because you can wind up
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getting yourself fired. And I would say that maybe Stop
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a large percentage of society so people wind up creating these,
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an anonymous handles and going on, whatever you know, website,
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has a comment section or on Twitter or something like that
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and they posted things. Now, my question to you, I'm
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going to give one more example before I turn it over to you.
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My question to you is going to be, is that anonymity, a good
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thing or a bad thing? Should it be eliminated?
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Should there just be one? If Steadman or should you also
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be able to create a Jeff Steadman, an anonymous account.
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So, you know, Joe Steadman, and here's why I asked.
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So, yeah, we all know that you, you ran a Chili's, right?
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And I was reading an article recently where it was there.
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It was about Olive Garden and someone post.
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The question, you know is that is the unlimited breadsticks,
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truly unlimited, you know, is there A point where you order to
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many breadsticks and they say, no.
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And I person got on there said, I work at Olive Garden and if
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you were I forget what the number was honestly because it
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was like so outrageous like who the heck would order 12?
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Masses of breadsticks, something like that like that's the cutoff
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point. And they're probably not allowed
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to say that, right? That might be a fireable
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offense, whether it is or not, I don't know, but I'm getting to
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the point that in that sense, an enmity would be good that you go
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out there and like shared that information and not have to
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worry about it, like having a blow back on you.
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Well, I think it's a good thing, and for the most part, it sure
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it's like anything else. There is downsides to anything
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and for in second of all. Well, first of all, the world
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was not ready for to just admins can barely handle one.
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So, let's just get that clear right now.
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Yeah, I got is an, is being anonymous on the internet.
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Good holistically. Probably, I tried to die to get
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and I try to see the positive where I can.
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I think of things like what's happening with governments, may
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be that I have, you know, Less than ideal Free Speech rules.
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Right being anonymous. There is probably helpful, not
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only to get the word out, but maybe even for your own personal
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Safety and Security, you know, when it comes to voicing
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descent, not every country has the same, you know, free speech
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that we do in the u.s. does Free Speech come without
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repercussions though. No, I think there are always a,
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you know, an action that can result from anything, any other
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action. So, some people are brave enough
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to Attach your name to it. Some people aren't for any, you
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know, reason. It could be safety security or
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maybe they just, you know, they are putting on a public Persona
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versus what they think, privately.
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So I don't, I mean, I don't know how to answer the question then
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you were talking about trust and the opposite trust being
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anonymous. I immediately went to deceit as
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the opposite of trust and thinking of from a negative
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standpoint, it's okay. Well, if I trust so-and-so and
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we're and we're an identity show.
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So let's talk with indication, right?
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If You're doing an occasion, you're essentially trying to
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establish a trust between people if you're trying to break that
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up and ication, then you're trying to deceive the system
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which probably means you are not the person that is the intended
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recipient of whatever that that's a trust session is about.
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So I don't know if they answer your question or not that was a
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very existential of you but it's very extensible overall, but I
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kind of feel like the Authentication It is kind of the
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middle of the chain because the authentication is proving you
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are the identity. But if you set up the identity
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into seat, then you're authenticating just deceptive
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identity. Yeah.
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And I also thought about this trust component.
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In terms of it's actually in two directions, it's the user
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trusting, the organization that there You know, a part of or
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they're there, they had an identity in and then just the
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organization or trusting the user.
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That this is a real identity and the real person is assigned to
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this identity and I guess those were things like verifiable
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credentials come into play. So to me when I was starting to
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think about that is like, well I don't want to go through
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verifiable credentials to. I don't want to tie my Twitter
6:44
account or my cure. Her account to my driver's
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license. Because I might want to say
6:50
something that you know, I don't, I don't want my employer
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to be like, hey, you know, you can't say something like that.
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You can't have that public opinion.
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So that was kind of my thought. And then, I thought, you know,
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in terms of trust because we, this comeback came up.
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I think maybe on our previous episode, where we talked about,
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you know, the organization's becoming the identity provider.
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And would people trusted organization?
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You think about governments or you think about big tack or
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corporations, like who trust those entities do people trust
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the United States government or some state government to be,
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actually, you know, a credential or an identity that they
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actually trust. Well, the answer is probably
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every answer in between like you know, and I don't even think
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that it is a binary decision. I think it's anywhere from 0 to
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100 percent, maybe even negative number from a trust perspective,
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is you definitely do not trust you, right?
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You know, these types of entities or whatever it might
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be. So I think it's all over the
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place. Yeah, zero trust - trusts, you
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know, positive trust, you know, whatever the right terminology
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would be, but I don't, you know, only only was only a Sith deals
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in black and white. So I think there are tons of
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Shades of Gray in between and I think when we start talking
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about sort of verifiable credentials and you know, this
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idea of really kind of like a self Sovereign identity where I
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can only share the parts of my identity that are relevant to
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the to the decision that needs to be made, whether it's math,
8:35
education decision, or authorization decision, you
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know, it's kind of like That, you know the example I've used
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in the past of law, I know it to get into this bar.
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I need to be 21 to prove that I am of age to drink.
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I show them my license and the bouncer whoever is checking ID
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validates that I have the correct birth date to coincide
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with establishing that I am 21 years old or older at the same
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time. They're also saying my home,
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address my height, my weight. I call her a whole bunch of
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stuff that isn't relevant that decision and I think this is
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sort of Where the direction of the industry is heading.
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When when we start talking about managing your own Dana data,
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from an identity perspective, is all you really needed to tell
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the person was, you know, the all they really care about is,
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are you 21 or older? If the answer is yes, everything
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else is irrelevant. The answer is no.
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Again, still all the answers. All the other things are
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irrelevant, right? So I think what we're talking
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about really her sort of managing, you know, to some
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degree, those those Angels whether it's verified or not,
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we're starting together until layers of trusts, you know.
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Sure. You can go and establish a fake
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identity. It is identity theft.
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We have a lot of Reliance on. Okay.
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Well if I went and got a driver's license and I was able
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to fake that, that means, now I can fake something else and then
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fake something else. And you sort of like build this,
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you know, House of Lies or House to House of Cards that might
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collapse, right? If one of those identities gets
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gets, you know, found out or whatever it may be.
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So I don't know where I was going with that but no that's a
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good that's great dialogue and I know we're not going to solve
10:15
this here but for anyone listening it but I don't think
10:18
so. But anyone listening, you know,
10:23
comment on when Joe when Jeff when Joe Hey Joe when Jeff puts
10:29
out the LinkedIn post that the episode is out, go out there and
10:36
put a comment they'll do here. People's feedback or their
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thoughts on trust and identity. Yeah, Beaker is I think plus
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it'll be good fodder for, you know, another episode where we
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kind of talked through. Like, here's what we heard from
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people, you know, industry and kind of what their thoughts
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were. So I think I know where you were
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going. When you start talking about
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verified credentials? I think we what we wanted to
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cover today, was Microsoft enter.
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Is that right? Absolutely.
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All right. So, Microsoft Ventura came out.
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Well, I guess was announced a few months ago I thought this is
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an episode. That is a long time.
11:11
Coming is to sort of explain what it is, what it's about.
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And hopefully demystify, some of it, we're not going to solve all
11:20
the answers and all the questions and all that stuff
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today, but at least hopefully get people kind of an overview
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of kind of what it is and give people some information around
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that, and there's probably no better person that we could
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bring on in his name, is, Eric Woodruff.
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He's a product technical specialist at Cypress.
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Welcome to the show. Eric, Thanks Jeff.
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Glad to be here, thanks. Yeah, thanks so much for joining
11:41
us and we've had Gil from Cyprus back on.
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I think it was September of last year 2021 episode number 110,
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we're recording episode 191. So it's been about a little
11:53
while since we had someone on from Cyprus and we're going to
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talk about Microsoft entry. Your kind of, hopefully help
11:59
clear it up in my mind as to what it is and more, maybe more
12:02
broadly, what it's not but we've got tradition around here, you
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know, when someone joins us Us first time like to find out what
12:08
their identity origin story is, how did you get into identity?
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Is that something that you chose, or did it choose you?
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That's a good question. And I feel like my career is
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almost two parts for the first half.
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So actually, when I started my it career, I was a Unix engineer
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back in the late 90s during the.com, boom.
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And then fast forward a bit as that whole bubble.
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Cuffs. The collapsed I started working
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with active directory for bit at Time Warner and then, I spent a
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good majority of my career at the New York state courts and
12:47
working. There, I would say it was a
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generalist working within the windows sort of server
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ecosystem, but when I started, there was a big eater rectory
12:56
groupwise shop and by the time, I left about 15 years later, you
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know, as, as your active directory active directory, I'll
13:05
be going to the cloud and What not?
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And I think just looking over the years at the transformation
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there, I definitely had identity, choose me and I guess
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I'd say that because as active directory became more and more
13:21
important we moved away from edirectory and what not like
13:24
someone sort of had, you know, take rains there and you know,
13:30
securing identity. When I was there.
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I never thought of myself as a security person, but I thought
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of myself as Infrastructure a generalist.
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What not? So, but then I actually left the
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state and spend a bit of time working at Microsoft then.
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And when I started there, I'd say that's what the sort of
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chapter 2 of my career started. And there, I would say, I chose
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identity. So I was a premier field
14:01
engineer and we were given sort of a luxury to pick out of like
14:05
the Azure Suite of things. As to what you want to focus on
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and just as I started to dig into like MFA and conditional
14:12
access and other identity Technologies, I really enjoyed
14:16
it. And so since then I've worked in
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a few other identity roles. And definitely, though, I find
14:23
identity interesting and I'm say I think I would say that only
14:29
then is that when I would consider that I became and
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identity practitioner strong enough to like call myself one.
14:35
And now you're with Sampras, I guess.
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Those who aren't familiar with, what's a is does, what's the,
14:40
you know, 30 seconds, maybe 60 second long, elevator, ride
14:44
pitch, so people can kind of be aware of, you know, what it is
14:47
that you guys do. Yep.
14:48
So, you know, it's time for us, we have a few different
14:51
products, mostly revolving around hybrid identity, which
14:55
the episode that Gil was on, you know, you guys spoke about that.
14:59
But, all right, so talking about active directory, and Azure
15:03
active directory, but primarily focused on active directory
15:06
there. there's one product we had, that's an ID, D our
15:09
platform, and it's really, you know, securing active directory
15:15
and also extending that out now to the hybrid identity and Azure
15:18
ad, and the other piece of software we have, which I
15:22
actually wish I could go back to places, I used to work and I
15:25
know this sounds salesy, but we never did Disaster Recovery
15:31
testing of active directory at a lot of places because I mean
15:34
it's a huge pain and You know, I started here in August and
15:38
actually seeing our other product you know do active
15:42
directory restores. Yeah.
15:45
It's a TFR it's pretty pretty cool piece of text so If it
15:51
leaks disaster recovery of a Diaz.
15:56
Is where it's at, man, if you're, if you consider yourself
15:59
a Microsoft shop, you better be doing it because a ransom,
16:04
where's attacks goal in life would be to own your active
16:09
directory, they own your active directory, you are in big
16:12
trouble. If you truly are a Microsoft
16:15
shop? Yeah, no.
16:16
I mean, absolutely. And, I mean, I thought it's
16:19
interesting and listening to some other podcasts about, you
16:23
know, ransomware attacks. I mean, it always goes back to
16:25
write like, regardless of how they threat actor.
16:28
Initially got in its when they owned active directory, that
16:31
everything just completely fell apart.
16:33
So, that's true. That's true.
16:36
Yeah, I've seen in my own professional experience, so, but
16:40
we did not bring you on to talk about Disaster Recovery.
16:43
We're trying to learn about this.
16:46
Microsoft entra and would love it if you would, you know, kind
16:50
of educate us on it. I know.
16:53
Enter has really like an umbrella for Tools.
16:57
But whatever, you know about it, that would be great to kind of
17:01
share with us and the listeners. Yeah, so I mean, I would say
17:06
entra depending on what angle you look at it, it may be
17:10
marketing but there's also the sort of Suite of Technologies
17:14
under it, right? So, I mean that the piece of
17:17
Ventura that most folks are familiar with or probably most
17:21
familiar. I should say is azure active,
17:23
directory. And then So there's a history
17:28
about a couple years ago. Microsoft took all their
17:30
security stuff and they renamed everything to like Defender 4X
17:35
like Defender for cloud forecasts, be solution became
17:38
Defender for cloud apps, Etc. And then they did a similar
17:41
thing in the spring of 2020, where all their compliance and
17:44
data governance became Microsoft purview.
17:48
And then it was this June that they you know announce Tantra
17:53
and yeah when you saw the announcement it was really You
17:56
guys are active directory. And also now bundling in Cloud
18:00
Knox, as enter a permissions management, so that's there.
18:04
Kim or Keem, you know, see, I am solution there.
18:09
And then also entra verified ID, which, when it was in public
18:14
preview, was Azure active directory, verifiable
18:18
credentials as your AG has been around for a long time.
18:21
So is it just that as uad is now bundled under entra or there's
18:26
Some new features that make it because I mean, as an
18:31
old-school, active directory, persons, like you've got the
18:36
active directory users and computers, which is not a end
18:41
user facing Administration tool. But, you know, those of us who
18:47
used it over the years, grew to love it and hate it.
18:51
But it gives you ultimate flexibility that I kind of felt
18:55
like a sure As a lot of similarities in terms of its
18:59
admin focused rather than kind of an end user Focus.
19:05
So, I guess let me put my question, like this is entra
19:10
azure ad meant to, you know, replace having something like
19:16
cell point or and you know, an IGA or and itsm tool for
19:22
managing access. So Given the the classic
19:27
Consulting answer there is it depends, right?
19:30
So you know, there are components that that existed
19:34
even before entra for identity governance and sort of, you
19:39
know, the end-user aspect of things with like a my access
19:43
portal for entitlement requests. What I think is interesting is
19:49
within, that's probably been the past two or three weeks noticing
19:53
that when they add a new features too.
19:56
Azure active directory identity. Governance, it also is now being
20:00
renamed to entra Identity governance.
20:03
It's not like out there if you go look at like the nth row,
20:07
sort of sweet. But if you go look at the Docks,
20:09
it's still refers to as you know, Azure active directory
20:13
identity governance. But you know, I try to your
20:16
question. I mean, I think they're
20:17
definitely making a push, you know, as far as like identity
20:22
governance goes, right. And they've certainly come a
20:25
long way. At least past few years
20:27
especially but you know I'd say the primary focus just seems
20:34
targeted at least with getting rid of men, Tim ilm for those
20:39
customers. Well that's a certain me.
20:42
That's, that's ultimately the most important thing to most
20:48
folks who are in our industry with regards to Azure ad is all
20:54
right, in the On-prem world. I had those products you just
21:00
talked about and what what's my equal and as your world.
21:06
So maybe you talk a little bit about for those who don't know
21:10
what memphian my LM are, you know, kind of that, you know,
21:14
approach that Microsoft hook. And then you know what are the
21:22
the analogous platforms or tools in the act.
21:26
Our world. Yes, I mean so Nim which was fam
21:30
and then ilm right was sort of their their sync engine tool.
21:34
And there's also a web interface that most may find a bit clunky.
21:39
That's right. Connected to SharePoint.
21:42
You need like a PhD to operate ma'am.
21:44
I've prayed I, I'm proud that I've never actually dealt with
21:48
him and will admit that I'm not super deep with it.
21:51
But yeah, you know, ma'am was a lot of like we're bringing in.
21:56
No user information from an HCM. It was you know, self-service
22:01
password reset. It also had some, you know, Pam
22:05
components to it and you know some of that is a bit scattered
22:10
through as your active directory and I'd say you know there's
22:12
certainly some people out there who are like well where is the
22:16
you know Cloud version of ma'am, right?
22:19
But if you look at Azure active directory, self-service password
22:22
reset has been out there for quite a long while, right?
22:26
I think a lot of the functionality of man though with
22:29
the, you know, user lifecycle workflows and entitlement
22:33
management and all that sort of stuff is what's primarily
22:36
getting pushed into, you know, enter up identity governance.
22:41
So I kind of feel like it when you think about identity
22:45
governance a, the key is answering the question of who
22:48
has access to what and it's really like two parts.
22:51
It's the provisioning side of, you know, Other words to finding
22:57
who should have access that would be your work clothes and
23:00
everything where you assign access to people and then
23:03
provision to some and point, like active directory, or some
23:07
application. But then there is the actual.
23:10
What do people actually have, right?
23:12
So, we're pushing all those out, too.
23:14
And then point now we're pulling it back.
23:18
Some funny business may have happened behind the scenes,
23:20
right? That we should be able to now
23:22
pick up and say, Hey, how do, all these accounts have these
23:26
Your privileges, or who created these accounts because we don't
23:30
recognize the account QA test, 123 to me, what would MIM always
23:37
was able to do is only the first part, you know, give you a
23:40
web-based tool to manage giving access to people or taking it
23:46
away and then provisioning are so and I kind of always thought
23:51
of him doing that via some kind of like directory
23:55
synchronization. Is that accurate?
23:57
Yeah, I mean I would say now with entra that, I mean they
24:02
have access reviews out there, right?
24:04
So you can have your certifications or at stations or
24:09
however you want to put it on whether it's may be as robust,
24:14
isil point, you know. Suppose I won't, I don't know
24:18
sale Point enough to sort of make a strong comment there, but
24:23
it definitely is primarily targeted still at.
24:26
Like the, I'd say, the Microsoft ecosystem, right?
24:31
Yeah. And that, I mean, that's, I
24:33
think, to me, this is kind of my perspective, right?
24:38
Is that there's no way it could be called up with South Point.
24:41
South Plains, been doing this for over a decade, right?
24:45
And so you can't just catch up overnight like that, but that,
24:50
okay, so that's the first tower that we've been talking about.
24:53
Is this identity management. If Is the old school term.
24:58
The second tower was Keem, or as we've been schooled on recently,
25:04
when we had Paul on the show last week, Kim.
25:09
And that's the old Cloud knocks tool, right?
25:13
So, Microsoft acquired that product, when you're using Cloud
25:17
knocks, do you feel like you're in Azure is like the same user
25:21
interface and things like that? No, so with the cloud knock,
25:26
It's the first round of integration.
25:28
I mean, there's definitely done some work on the back end, but
25:31
when you go to the entry portal and you click on cloud knocks,
25:35
it opens like a new tab that is basically what feels like Cloud
25:41
Knox was so okay. Like a totally separate
25:46
application, they basically, but that in some ways is a good
25:49
thing because I'm to bring over all that functionality, and try
25:55
to fit it into You, the existing framework, I'd be a major ordeal
26:00
in itself, talk to us a little bit about what cloud knocks
26:04
does. So that users who aren't
26:07
familiar with with that would have some baseline
26:12
understanding. Yes.
26:14
So I mean, right? That's your Cloud
26:16
infrastructure. Entitlement management and to
26:18
the the Kim ver scheme thing. I feel like it's similar where I
26:23
always thought it used to be seam.
26:24
And then at some point I was told It's now Sim and that's so
26:27
we don't confuse it with Siam and you know it goes on and on
26:31
but you know, to your question I mean, right, so I think of in
26:38
the Azure world but it's not just Azure specific that, you
26:41
know, identity would tend to focus on, you know, things that
26:47
are I guess closer to other its heart.
26:48
Right? And you'd see a lot of
26:49
organizations who may have a bunch of subscriptions or if
26:55
it's AWS accounts, Server or whatnot out there, right?
26:57
And the kind of delegate off the administration of you know who
27:02
has access to what out there and to me I mean I think you know
27:06
there's more like the I guess I'd say the philosophy
27:09
philosophical piece of you know does control over access to that
27:16
belong under like the identity umbrella, which I feel like
27:19
you're Kim Solutions are kind of bring it back here, but it's
27:23
also to help govern that right? To make sure that it's the who
27:25
has As to what, you know, there's the just-in-time piece
27:29
for, you know, at the right time and also there's you know, what
27:33
I'd say is similar to like access reviews out there, right?
27:36
Making sure that you know you don't have privileges this
27:40
hanging around makes you think of old file servers or
27:43
something. Right?
27:44
Where you'd go look and everyone has permissions to everything
27:48
and nobody can ever make what's, what a what?
27:50
So yeah. So okay, so the first piece was
27:54
as your Can as Rady second piece was Club knocks, the third piece
28:03
is verify credentials, right? And what's the what's the
28:07
company line on that product? Right?
28:08
What was that all about? So I mean, I would say verified
28:13
ideas, the area, I have had the least Focus.
28:20
Just, I mean, to me, having worked more with, you know,
28:24
customers I guess out in the Old, especially when it's more
28:27
in the like delivery Consulting role.
28:30
You know, you tend to be more focused on like the issues at
28:33
hand where you know, my opinion verified credentials and you
28:40
know, decentralized identity and all that feels more like future.
28:43
When you've got people who, you know, you still have issues with
28:48
basic things like right fishing resistant MFA but it is it is
28:53
there, you know, decentralized, I A sort of product out there
28:58
and what it was announced and even under public preview,
29:03
right? That Microsoft has been, I think
29:04
interestingly good at, you know, running sort of hackathons to
29:08
try to get people like thinking about, you know, like what can
29:12
we do with this, right? But I also know that there's
29:16
some folks who sort of look at it as like a solution where the
29:19
problem hasn't really been defined yet.
29:21
So, yeah, it seems to me that Did making investments in
29:27
identity, whether it's going out and purchasing kind of Leading
29:32
Edge Products or you know, developing products themselves
29:36
and house based on, you know, Azure ad or like the verified
29:41
adp's, would you just described? I'm wonder you go to a lot of
29:45
the Microsoft partner conference is right.
29:48
Talk to us a little bit about where they're heading with these
29:52
products. At least what what information
29:55
is being shared. Therefore the public.
29:58
Yeah I mean so I think if you like a cloud right there's a lot
30:04
of times where it's that AWS may you know Trump Microsoft
30:09
relative to you know I as or Paz I strongly feel like Microsoft
30:16
is trying to position themselves from.
30:18
I mean not just an identity but also a security aspect as being
30:23
like they're like where you're going.
30:26
Go to for multi-class One, Stop Shop.
30:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that's a recurring theme.
30:33
We've had a lot of folks on the podcast recently, talking about
30:38
this. This idea of converged identity
30:41
which is really taking the components, which were these
30:46
pillars of identity management and offering at some level all
30:51
of them. So, maybe grew up as an access
30:54
management vendor Now you're offering life cycle and
30:58
privileged access management or maybe you started out privileged
31:01
access management. Now you're dipping your toe into
31:03
these other areas it definitely feels like Microsoft wants to be
31:09
that One Stop Shop. Yeah.
31:12
Yeah. I'm, I mean, an honestly, I
31:14
think, to sort of try to pull that off you, you need to be one
31:17
of the big sort of players out there.
31:19
Whether it's, you know, I mean, there's the big three, right?
31:23
And they seem to be positioning themselves.
31:26
Ourselves. I guess I'd say well relative to
31:30
be in like that, that One Stop Shop.
31:32
So who you point to as the big 30.
31:36
So the other is B, Google and AWS.
31:41
OK, Google Amazon Microsoft in terms of providing cloud
31:46
services to Enterprises. Yeah.
31:49
And I mean, I used to, when I say that, I mean, big three in
31:53
big enough that right. I know I'm one of the I sewed.
31:56
So thank you, you know, talked about how you know I rocked a
32:00
sort of tried their hand at IGA right and there's this is no
32:04
knock on October or anything but just I think Microsoft has the
32:08
sheer weight of their services also with Office 365.
32:14
I mean you talked to a lot of customers who they want like
32:18
that Azure 80 thing, there are 365 shop in your like you
32:22
already have it, right? So just just the way it kind of
32:25
is Is sort of out there whether you know it or not.
32:28
Sometimes and that weight of their, the company doesn't
32:32
listen to a podcast with such an Adela actually I had listened to
32:36
her yesterday. It's called the tools and
32:38
weapons podcast for anyone who's interested, but he was making
32:42
the case about, you know, you've got to continue to innovate.
32:46
You've got to continue to disrupt or someone's going to
32:49
eat your lunch. And so while Microsoft is the
32:53
800-pound gorilla, doesn't mean couldn't speak in, you know, you
32:57
mentioned OCTA. They didn't try their hands in
33:00
lifecycle management. They are actively trying their
33:03
hands and lifecycle management. You know they're building their
33:06
platform. And so you know I look Microsoft
33:12
has been around for like 40 years or something.
33:15
Silly like some mind-boggling number, you know, people have
33:20
preconceptions of Microsoft. I think they become they What do
33:27
you call it reinvented themselves?
33:28
I guess if you will with Nadella as a CEO I think he really shook
33:35
things up but I think that you know he's right if they're not
33:40
going to continue to innovate and disrupt you know even their
33:44
their core products people start to question.
33:47
Hey can I do this better cheaper?
33:51
You know things that companies used to get money for now you
33:54
can get for free. Free.
33:56
Yep. Right?
33:57
So do they fall in love with making money on certain things
34:02
so much that they don't adapt to the market?
34:06
Where movie something is becoming free.
34:08
So, last question for you on this topic is just around, you
34:14
know, I meet with a lot of cisos and program, managers security
34:21
folks who say, we're a Microsoft shop, right?
34:24
So there, They're buying the e3e five licenses to manage
34:30
everything. They have very few usually, very
34:35
few applications that fall outside of the Microsoft
34:39
ecosystem, they might be using Microsoft CRM, Microsoft
34:43
Dynamics or Erp, you know? They're they're like all in of
34:47
course there they probably have some best-of-breed Cloud
34:50
Solutions but you know, these are shops where they are doing,
34:53
think Microsoft way. My question for you is from an I
34:58
am perspective, do these folks also need.
35:04
I am tools Beyond what's available with entra.
35:10
You know, I guess I'd say it's back to the classic.
35:13
It depends, right. I mean, I've seen some things,
35:17
some interesting, you know, I am tools for like Health Care, you
35:22
know, also for K-12, but I mean, you see it.
35:25
Go go both ways of had customers that have, you know, stuck with
35:30
Azure active directory for K-12 and, you know, they're
35:35
federating Google workspace back to have no other students were
35:38
using it, but You also see some interesting.
35:43
I'd say you know, Technologies developed out there for more of
35:46
those. I don't know if I'd say they're
35:48
Fringe cases, right? There's tons of Health Care out
35:50
there but I can't think of the name.
35:52
There's a company that sort of is specialized in, you know,
35:56
authentication for you know, Healthcare Providers, like, you
35:59
know, you're on the floor. Nurses, doctors stuff like that.
36:04
So yeah, I mean, I think it may or may not sort of satisfy your
36:08
needs and and ultimately write each organization needs I mean I
36:13
think take a good look at, you know, how they operate what they
36:17
have and also, you know, put put aside maybe their fan, you know,
36:24
person this just whether they like or dislike Microsoft or I
36:29
guess I wouldn't be fan person Miss.
36:30
But hey, that's what I feel like that's a classic Consulting
36:36
answer where I didn't actually really answer anything.
36:38
So it depends right. Well you know, you If the I
36:43
think this is kind of worth the undertones that I'm is.
36:46
I'm listening here. Is preconceived notions right
36:49
around capabilities and products and vendors and some people are
36:53
pro Microsoft. Some people are pro not pro
36:55
Microsoft, right, or Apple or Google, or AWS every product has
37:01
its fans and its detractors. And I think what we sometimes
37:05
get stuck into is we use the product?
37:10
15 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago and it
37:14
is not the same product, you know, things move forward.
37:18
I don't think anybody is really in the business of putting out
37:20
bad products or we say hope that they are and they're always
37:23
trying to improve the challenges is, do you does your business
37:29
objective or your technical objective aligned with what the
37:32
capabilities of the products? You know, if we talked about,
37:36
you know, Microsoft, 20 years ago, or OCTA, or Ping.
37:40
Where sale point for that example, write any of these kind
37:42
of bigger identity vendors that are out there.
37:45
Their products were not as capable 20 years ago, they have
37:48
all gotten better, they're not perfect.
37:50
And they're still not the answer for everybody.
37:54
There are still use cases that they just not good at.
37:57
I think what are the chief knocks?
37:59
For example, on Microsoft, is that?
38:00
It's great when you're in the Microsoft ecosystem and then it
38:03
starts to fall apart pretty quickly.
38:05
Once you leave the Microsoft ecosystem and so people look for
38:09
alternatives. That and they sort of like, you
38:11
know, they get this bad taste in their mouth or it's like, oh,
38:13
that thing sucked. We hated it, right.
38:16
And I'll never use it again. And in the meantime, they're
38:19
probably doing themselves a disservice because it could be
38:20
the right fit. I mean, you see a lot of
38:22
companies who, you know, they, they have Office 365 and they're
38:27
using Microsoft but they just like don't want to use Azure for
38:31
single sign-on for MFA and it would be so much easier if they
38:35
did. You know there, maybe there's
38:37
other technical issues where they just can't, or won't do it
38:39
or, you know, Whatever it might be, but I always find it
38:42
interesting when I run into those clients who are very happy
38:45
to Microsoft for example and they use something completely
38:49
different. That is totally in The Sweet
38:51
Spot of what they should be using Microsoft Word yo man, you
38:55
see no I mean I I see I've seen the Spectrum.
39:00
I mean I think you're hitting on an interesting point in that
39:03
definitely has Technologies evolved.
39:07
It's more difficult these days to have Technology Drive.
39:10
Decisions than business Drive technology, but I think a lot of
39:14
US tech folks still want it. Where technology is driving
39:18
business, but no, I mean, I've seen I've done workshops where
39:24
like the second. You say hello there.
39:25
Like I hate Microsoft especially when you worked for.
39:28
Um, it's yeah, it's a difficult conversation to try to be like,
39:33
well, you know, I hope you don't personally hate me, right?
39:35
I'm just here to try to help you and he's going, Eric, you spent
39:39
a ton of money. Any on, you know, Office 365,
39:43
right? And you have Azure ad, like,
39:45
let's see what we can do with what you've got so far.
39:49
And we're talk about Microsoft, you know, I hear the same thing
39:51
about Oracle and, you know, we would never wish Oracle identity
39:55
management, anybody? Okay, well, you know what, you
39:57
know, all things being said, it's still a pretty good
40:00
product, especially if you use it where it's supposed to be
40:03
used. It's like anything else, right?
40:04
If you have one product, you try to make it do more than what
40:06
it's designed to do. Of course, it's going to
40:08
struggle, it's not designed. In for that, right?
40:11
It's like having the, you know, the label on the shampoo bottle,
40:14
do not drink this. It's there because somebody
40:17
tried to drink it at some point, right there should be like a,
40:21
you know, a nutrition label or warning on it products, you
40:24
know? Hey just because you've got
40:26
memed does that mean that it should be your entire identity
40:28
and access management platform? Write something like that, we've
40:32
been talking to kind of a lot here about entra.
40:35
I guess, if you had to sum up, you know what people need to
40:38
think about when they went. When it comes to entra, like
40:42
what are what's like, the main takeaway that somebody should
40:44
come off with that? You know, I mean, I think it's
40:49
really focusing on the, the sort of components of it, right?
40:52
So to me in particular, I guess I'd say it's Azure active
40:58
directory, piece of that and if you in particular, are a o365 or
41:05
em 365, customer right? Looking at how You know, you may
41:11
own a lot of stuff. One of the things I would want
41:13
to Azure active, directory, environments a lot and what you
41:18
would come across again and again and again our customers
41:20
who they have, no idea what they own right and some they may have
41:26
something else deployed. They want to get rid of some.
41:29
It's just they don't even know, it's out there and it is a lot
41:32
of stuff, right? It's like trying to boil the
41:34
ocean sometimes but you just, you know, leveraging leveraging
41:38
what you may already own. So, Yeah, I mean, hey, it's
41:40
important part. Like you marry getting a lot of
41:43
stuff through your licensing. Why not take advantage of it?
41:46
I mean, you know, if you're looking for the right way to do
41:49
things, it's I think you have to leverage.
41:51
You know, what do you have today that you that you could leverage
41:55
versus what are the gaps and potential costs?
41:58
If you're already paying for something you might as well try
42:00
to get the most out of it. All right, we're going to go
42:03
ahead and wrap up this conversation but before we go,
42:05
we were kind of talking before we hit the road, the old record
42:08
button here, and we started Little bit about video games.
42:12
I've got, I got one I want to ask you to share if you don't
42:15
mind. You see you mentioned, you had a
42:16
tattoo. Yep, which I'm going to guess is
42:20
the answer to my question, which is what is your favorite classic
42:23
video game? And I guess Jim, you kind of
42:25
came up with this question. Before you answer Eric defying
42:28
classic? Like what is classic mean in
42:30
this context? Hmm.
42:32
So what I was thinking was a video game that you went
42:38
somewhere and either God got in or stood in front of maybe at
42:42
like a pizza shop or something and you put coins into it to
42:46
play it. Yeah.
42:48
That's that's what I had in mind.
42:51
Some people might be like, what the heck is he talking?
42:53
A lot of people are like, what are you talking about?
42:55
They don't remember arcade machines and pumping it borders
42:57
into those things. Yeah.
42:59
Well anyway, that's what I had in mind but I look go ahead and
43:02
answer it, however, you like, alright, Eric go for it.
43:05
Yeah. I mean, I suppose it would be
43:08
classic in the sense of the series of Legend of Zelda.
43:11
So, but when I mean, the, the first Zelda came out, I was way
43:18
too young to understand what was going on, but I watched my, my
43:22
dad play a, but my favorite in the series would not be
43:27
considered classic, at least at least not breath the wild that
43:32
or honestly, Twilight Princess. I also really, really enjoyed so
43:38
but during each Game in the series is so unique.
43:42
It's hard to sort of compare and while they've done a pretty good
43:46
job of really kind of varying, not only like the stories but
43:51
also the actual, the artistic style of the series for Legend
43:55
of Zelda. I mean, you know, most people
43:56
kind of think about it of you know, back in the day link and
43:59
the master sword in the Triforce, right?
44:00
And sort of like this 2D top-down, you know, scrolling
44:04
sort of Adventure type thing. And then you look at something
44:06
like a Nintendo switch breath of the wild which is like this
44:09
masterpiece of a. Now I can open world and
44:12
intricate systems and say, do you see that mountain of
44:15
distance? You can go there and you can
44:17
climb it if you Got enough, you know, strength or energy like to
44:19
go up the hill. I mean, it's it's amazing how
44:21
far it's come and in between then you've had things that have
44:24
been more stylistic like cartoon versus more like a video game
44:28
and like cell-based shading and things.
44:30
Well, yeah, I was going, I mean with Wind Waker.
44:33
I'd say honestly, you know, I mean, I'm a Nintendo Fanboy, but
44:38
there's always been the knock on them that everything is
44:40
underpowered. So, you know, sometimes it
44:42
seemed like they did that because that's the only way they
44:45
can make the game function. Well, you know, it's Though.
44:48
I mean, whatever reason it still looks great, by any standards.
44:51
I mean, you know, is it full motion video?
44:54
And, you know, sort of Cutting Edge, you know Reflections and
44:58
raytrace Graphics? Right?
44:59
And all this other stuff. No, but it looks really good and
45:02
if it is, if it performs really well, right.
45:04
That's, you know, probably the most important thing.
45:07
All right. So you got what?
45:09
What was your choice again, Eric, which selda?
45:12
I'll go with Twilight Princess Twilight Princess.
45:15
All right, Jim, what's your favorite old man?
45:17
Bit No game. Stand up old man was actually
45:21
one I played in a pizza parlor, but it was sit down.
45:24
So it was a car game called Spy Hunter Spy Hunter, someone
45:30
brought it up, on one of our, our project calls the other day
45:34
and you're like, oh, you know, like reminds you to Spy Hunter,
45:37
like, oh my goodness I love that game.
45:39
You could do like the oil slick. You could do the big cloud of
45:43
smoke and then you had to dock yourself into the semi on the My
45:48
I mean for my money that game was and then we had to sit down
45:52
one to me. It was like you felt like you're
45:54
driving a real car. Think about that that that total
45:58
2D view but it just yeah. So that plus a super classic you
46:05
know, intro sound kind of theme that doo-doo-doo-doo
46:07
doo-doo-doo-doo doo-doo-doo-doo and just I was going to do.
46:10
I was going to do the what you just did but I was afraid we get
46:14
a strike. Why did it so porno?
46:16
So poorly that know? One would ever be able to
46:18
recognize it in the real world so I think we're probably.
46:20
Okay. Alright so for myself I guess
46:25
technically it is a classic it has been around for 18 years
46:29
World of Warcraft. I still play it to this day.
46:31
I've been playing it for 18 years.
46:34
I am one of those nerds that back-in-the-day stood in line to
46:38
get different expansion packs as they came out.
46:40
And yeah it is still my one of my main drugs of choice when it
46:45
comes to hitting the video game and You know, it's expansion
46:49
week. Dragon, dragon Niles just came
46:52
out. So of course, I've got to check
46:53
that out. When I get time, I don't have as
46:55
much time as I used to. So not necessarily into the
46:58
whole rating thing. My wife and I used to be in a
47:00
rating Guild. So yeah, we were at World of
47:02
Warcraft house, you know, for a while there, but what was that
47:05
one's for one video game is pretty darn good.
47:08
What was that one video? That was on YouTube and they're
47:11
on a raid and like the one guy just like goes off.
47:14
That's what does more dots? Yeah, they were.
47:17
There's a A couple famous Warcraft Clips, there's one
47:19
with, they're going into a raid against the dragon called onyxia
47:23
and basically the encounter is, as you've got 50 people on your
47:26
side and then this Dragon who spawns a bunch of little dragon
47:30
whelps. And they, the idea is really is,
47:33
they tend to overwhelm your group and you end up dying when
47:36
onyxia, takes her deep breath and sort of wipes out the raid
47:39
and you have this classic raid leader, you know, kind of
47:42
yelling out, more dots damage over time, which basically means
47:45
more damage. You know, onto the Things and
47:48
handling the whelps and add control.
47:50
Something that's the. Now I'm nerding out about World
47:52
of Warcraft and the other one is Leroy Jenkins with Steve Reich.
47:56
Is also shorter think. Yeah, he charges into a room.
47:59
Like they're like preparing for like this thing and I read that
48:02
this was more like a stage thing.
48:03
It's not actually something that actually happened like just off
48:06
the cuff, but they're like, trying to like, figure out how
48:09
to tackle this room and the character of Leroy Jenkins just
48:13
he comes up on comms on voice. Chase.
48:15
Like he just yells his name, we wrought.
48:17
Jenkins he just fits right into the rooster whole plan.
48:21
Ruined the whole plan, just kind of kills himself and he's become
48:25
a very popular culture, you know, cultural icon in the game
48:28
and it's also stretched outside of the game.
48:29
So when you hear someone who's 20 Jenkins, they're basically
48:32
just charging into battle without any really thought?
48:35
Yeah, I'm ruining everybody else's like, well, laid out
48:38
plan. Anyway, you have to go in to
48:40
YouTube and search Leroy Jenkins.
48:42
If you don't know, we're talking about watch this video.
48:45
It's hilarious. Yeah.
48:46
If we don't play video games, Games.
48:49
All right, I'm going to before we, I start nerding out, even
48:52
more about it. We'll go ahead and wrap up for
48:55
this week. Eric, thank you so much for
48:58
being part of this will have links to yourself on a LinkedIn
49:02
for people to kind of connect Reach Out.
49:04
They've got questions. I know you also had a Blog Eric,
49:07
and identity, Eric, and I didn't you.com, I guess.
49:10
What's the to Second sort of what is that?
49:12
That is a my Microsoft identity, nerding out.
49:17
So it's mostly technical Content about, you know, various Azure
49:22
ad related things. So, yeah, there's a lot of good
49:27
stuff in there, so definitely a good read and you have been
49:29
posting content, which is great. So I try it's a lot of work to
49:34
right. That's why we do a podcast.
49:39
So I have a link to that, in our show notes all stuff.
49:41
Like this Empress scmp, ER, is.com where you can learn more
49:46
about, what Eric, and the fine folks over there are working on
49:49
As well as I like to Microsoft enter, if you want to read the
49:51
company line and kind of what that is all about, from the
49:54
Microsoft perspective, as well as links to Jim.
49:56
And I on LinkedIn, definitely looking for always for, you
49:59
know, a feedback on what you like about the show topics
50:03
things. You want to see us cover in the
50:04
future, you know, things like that.
50:05
Definitely hang this up on LinkedIn and be happy to take
50:09
that under advisement. And yeah I think that's going to
50:12
be it for this week. You can find us on the web
50:14
identity at the center.com. We're on Twitter so far the
50:18
dumpster fire that has And into a tidy AC podcasts.
50:21
And without, go ahead and leave it.
50:23
Thanks everyone for listening, and we'll talk with everyone.
50:26
And next one, thanks for listening to the podcast.
50:32
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and
50:35
visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.