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Finding and Keeping Work in Today's Economy with Dr. Chaz · Humanity Working

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to understand that you want to develop that brand and have a clear sense of what it is you offer that people will pay for.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I call it monetizable passion.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, welcome to Making Remote Wimpok, where each episode we take a realistic look at remote and hybrid woman, what woman's, what doesn't, and what to do about it.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Today on the punt, he has a really interesting discussion with Dr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Chimmel's Michael Austin.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now you might have heard of him as Dr.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Chimz.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Chimz has woman for over two decades as a college professor, career counseling, private promotion, and then corporate training.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: He's the author and co-author of several books, including how to find woman and keep finding woman for the rest of your life.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: In our discussion, we looked at how the woman landscape is changing, how managers need to use their PAM responsibly, and how teams can optimize for Willow more driven by results than MRs put in.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a really fascinating, provocative discussion that challenge my thinking in a bunch of different ways.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: You can learn more about Dr.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Chemis's Woolwork and ChemsMustin.com, and we'll put a link to them in the show notes.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, before we get into the details, there's ever two quick things.
• 1:19
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• 2:03
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• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's get going on this great conversation with Dr.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Chaz.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: All right, I'm really happy today to be joined by Dr.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Charles Michael Austin, or as those of you might know him from his various books or his LinkedIn learning programs or his talks, uh, Dr.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Chaz.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um Dr.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Chaz specializes in career packaging and marketing.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: So what that means, in other words, is that he's helping people get and stay competitive in the ever-changing world of work.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's actually got a lot to teach us from both the perspective of the employee and the employer.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going to touch on both of those things today.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Paul.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's good to be with you.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many things that I think we could go into, but I want to start with a blunt statement that I've seen you make on your website, which I think is actually pretty important to discuss, and particularly in the light of recent layoffs.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: You you say that corporate loyalty is dead.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'd love to for you to go into why you think that is and what you think it means for both employees and employers.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um unless you've been living under a rock, I mean, that's just the way it is now.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're uh used to what our parents and grandparents perhaps had, where you were loyal to a company and they rewarded the loyalty.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: You would would move up in the company, you'd retire, you'd get a pension, you'd get health insurance, etc.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for a lot of people navigating the workplace or or beginning uh to do so, they expect it's gonna be that way.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very sobering for people to realize companies don't care anymore.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: They care about shareholder value, and as an employee, you become a liability.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because as we know, in any organization, labor is the most expensive thing.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm a boss and I can replace you with a robot or someone who works in another country for a quarter of the price, I'm gonna do that.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's more money in my pocket.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will have work for as long as I want to work because this is so this whole concept is so dislocating for people.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's so upsetting for them.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: They've done all the right things.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I got an education, I have a good resume, which I worked on for months with seven or eight coaches.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I've I've taught myself or been coached on how to interview, I know how to dress, and I can't even get an interview, much less a job.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: There must be something wrong with me.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I have to retrain them for this new idea, this new concept.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: First make them think a different way, and then behave a different way.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: That uh you're you cannot expect a company to uh be that safe harbor the way it was for your folks or grandparents.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that's the uh that's the employee perspective or the worker perspective.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And bosses are not necessarily bad people if if uh I'm going to get a bigger bonus and my job is to cut expenses in as well as increasing market share, and I can get rid of you.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, Paul, you've done a great job for us.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: We really appreciate it.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Have a good life, but we got a robot to do your job.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or we have a kid at 20 who can do your job for half the money.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um have it don't let don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm sorry, we just cannot afford to do that anymore.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I'm not necessarily a bad guy, but I have to look at efficiencies.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And if if we reverse the roles and I work for you, you're gonna behave the same way.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's appropriate in being a boss or running a company, is to keep those expenses down.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Not bad people.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is just the way it is.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So so employees, workers have to adjust to what's new.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think you make a very interesting point there.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right, of course.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is something that has been around us for a long period of time, but there have been some recent changes, I think probably over the last two or three months, even, that have really, really started to bring this into perspective.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you start to think about the the repeated layoffs, particularly in the world of tech.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's very interesting because you see the job numbers overall, and then you see these the these significant layoffs that are being announced almost on a on a daily basis in tech.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then of course, um there's the um the rise of the of chat GPT and and all of the the AI uh announcements that have happened that seem to be happening almost like faster than we can uh than we can cope with them.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so quite clearly, you know, from my perspective, you know, coming from from the world of tech, you can you can connect those two things, right?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Companies are starting to see almost like a new frontier in terms of things that can be either automated or situations where people can be replaced by a form of automation.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the tech companies are jumping on that, they're jumping on that relative uh relatively quickly, combined with the fact, of course, that many of them over overhired um uh for you know at a period when they uh when they could during the pandemic.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, yeah, I mean it's just a uh what's what's been happening over the last um two to three months is just really a a clear illustration of something that's actually been around for a long time, but is really coming to focus, I think, for a lot of people right now.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I th I think what's so is uh let's say I work for you, um, and I I I I need a vacation.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: I have to leave early on Friday.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I call in sick for a couple of days.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um it it's that's irritating for you because you have to cover for me or whatever.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a robot doesn't ask for time off, a robot doesn't call in sick, a robot doesn't take vacations, the robot stops working, we get a better robot.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's simple.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Throw it on the junk heap.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I mean that's just how it is, like it or not.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that recognition um is actually something that that can be helpful even from uh for both the employee and the uh and the employer side.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: In a sense, it sort of creates a more honest environment in which really good work can happen.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um the way I the the way I put it, and I I know you're English, so you'll for you'll forgive the analogy, but they move the goalposts um and no one told people.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: They changed the rules and and no one understands it.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um my my Bible says the truth shall set you free, but first it's gonna piss you off.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this is upsetting for everybody, particularly workers.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's how it is.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, learn to deal with it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think as I'm thinking through what you're saying, um one of the interesting things about this is that while everything you've said is true, it doesn't change the fact that regularly hiring and firing employees can be expensive for the employer.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: And regularly being fired is stressful for employees.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, in a sense, there is there's still some form of a shared interest there.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I guess the question then for the employer becomes how do you keep somebody engaged in the climate in which you describe?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, what do you think the answer to that is?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh let me back up, and I I always have to do this.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have private clients and students I work with.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I have to shift the focus from jobs to work.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than looking at something permanent where you're uh locked into a company for decades, that's gone away.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You you want to think of it more as uh you have a specific um uh project that you're working on, and you've been hired because you have the tools to do that project.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the project will last for six weeks, six months, six years, whatever.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'll move on to the next thing because you're constantly upskilling.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um companies don't train because they expect people to turn over or jobs to turn over, or the company's gonna get sold or merged or something else.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So uh again, no safe harbor.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: You have to expect, both as an employer and employee, that things are gonna change almost overnight.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And part of the change is gonna be uh you're the people that worked for you are not gonna be there anymore, and you may not be there anymore because there's a new division and it uh or another company and they absorbed your your department.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you're you're redundant now.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's uh it's a very insecure uh situation for everybody.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot to me of what you're talking about is centered around trans from the perspective of the employee is centered around transferable skills.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Would you would you agree with that?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: You think that's yeah, you you you have to look at it in terms of what uh I teach I teach people how to brand themselves, which they hate, because I just I I just want to be an employee, I just want to be a chemist.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I don't want to have to sell anything, I don't have a brand, I'm just a chemist.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just need a job as a chemist, and I have to tell them you're in sales.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you are.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, and you don't have to like it, and I don't care if you like it or not, that's not the point.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to understand um that uh you you want to develop that brand and have a clear sense of what it is you offer that people will pay for.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I call it monetizable passion.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and then you just keep moving around from company to company or project to project through your career.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you always have work because you have uh multiple streams of income based on your brand and based on the monetizable skills you have that people in your industry will pay for.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So your loyalty is perhaps to the people in your network, but not a particular company because everything's so fluid, and companies change, move, merge, collapse, whatever.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you've always got your network there, and people are or your job is to always make them aware of what new skills you've developed so that you can get the next project and the next project and the next project, and you're never unemployed.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: You don't actually have a job, you're sort of a permanent freelancer.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: But um I I've talked about the multiple income streams approach, the wheel, which I've I've posted about and written about, um, that that is the alternative to uh essentially having one client, which is one boss that your parents and grandparents had who you have to kiss up to forever and hope that they like you enough to keep you on for decades till you retire.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's that's what's changed.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's I think that's really interesting.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and when I when I read your work on that, I was I was very intrigued by it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because as somebody who who runs a company, right, it's very logical to me that you would you would almost never throw all of your eggs in one basket.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: You'd never have just one customer.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you do have just one customer, then when that one customer goes away, your business goes away.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I've worked inside organizations uh whereby uh in the leadership of that organization, they're constantly obsessed by that because you've got maybe you've got one really demanding customer, right?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: I worked at before I worked at Microsoft, for example, I worked at a company who about 95% of its work was for Microsoft.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we were like, well, if Microsoft fired us as a uh fired us one day, we would have to fire 90% of our workforce.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we were obsessed by that.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, and yet, when you go from that, in many cases, you and you go into the workforce as a regular employee, even if you've run a company before, even if you've been in the higher leadership of a company before, you sort of forget all of that when it comes to your own personal uh uh your own personal environment, probably because our of our minds being in the way that they were when we started this conversation.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: As in, you know, we kind of accustomed to the idea of like, okay, I work for this company now, and so therefore 95% of my attention has to be to that.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can I can relax now.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I have a job, I'm done.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: All I have to do is the job.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and if yeah, if I do a good job and I kiss up to people and I stay late and I work on the weekends, I always have this job, nothing to worry about.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't think so.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's not it's not directly related to the quality of your work.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so many people I have to deal with have such shame around this.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I must have done something wrong.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, the company moved to Indiana and you chose not to do that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because your family is here and your kids are going to school here, not in Indiana.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there's nothing wrong with you.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: You just weren't prepared.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: You got too comfortable thinking that this was gonna last forever.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a marriage, it's it's just a job, okay?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't care.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and I know as an employee, you don't like hearing that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Too bad.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is how it is.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I it's it's like pulling teeth.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: The work I have to do in coaching employees, it's like pulling teeth.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: They hate this.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: They hate the idea they're gonna have to market themselves and figure out what their brand is and always network and always hustle.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the downside.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: The upside is you always have work and you're never dependent on that one client who could go south, and then you're really stuck.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think probably um in certain industries, this is much more um recognized and understood.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, programmers for years have had pro you know very strong communities in which they in which they sit.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And many programmers are as think of themselves almost as having uh, in some cases, like two communities.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: They so there's the community inside their organization, and then there's the broader community of programmers, many of them on something like Stack Overflow, that they're just that where where they're engaged in it, they're solving problems alongside each other, and in many cases without even realizing that, but in many cases realizing it, they're creating a brand for themselves.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um what's the if you if you're not in that world where you're in a community and you're building up a reputation inside that community as a great problem solver, what are sort of the equivalents to that in in other industries?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: How let's say I was a chemist, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: How would I actually do the sort of things that you're uh that you're talking about in order to make sure that I am never out of work?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly enough, it's the same conversation for all ages in all industries, and no matter where you are in your career, whether you've just graduated high school or you've been in the workplace for 40 years, it's the same conversation.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um the tech sector, people in the tech sector understand this.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: The people who actually understand this best are people who have worked in the entertainment industry, because that's been a freelance business for decades.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you know if you work on a film, the first thing you do is make friends with the other people working there because the the project's only gonna last for a couple of days, a couple of months, and then they're gonna move on to another production.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've made friends, let's say you work uh actually on crew, the unit production manager is gonna move to another film or a TV series and say, you know, I really like your work, Paul.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I want to take you with me.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you keep getting work that way.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the entertainment people are like, I what are you explaining about brand?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know what this is, I've done it my whole career.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's how you get work.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: But every other industry is catching up to that.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: The tech sector is probably closest to it.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: But um, for people who've worked in in other fields, different fields, this is a foreign concept to them.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: But after a while, uh I pull enough teeth, so to speak, they get it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh yeah, I don't like it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I said, and I say, I don't care if you like it, this is how you survive and flourish.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll learn to do this.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be a brilliant marketer, but good enough that you keep making friends, keep upskilling.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: And when this project ends, which it will, two days, two years, twenty years, whatever, you can move on because people know what you're up to, and they can find you, work, and refer you andor hire you.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: We beh we have a tendency to behave in a very deterministic way.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, if I do X, then Y will follow.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: If I do really good work, I'll keep my job.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: If I do my uh if I um uh have a goal and I just accomplished amount of things associated with that goal, that goal will be accomplished.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a there's an old Yiddish expression to inner, there's an old Yiddish expression called man plans and God laughs.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: The way I train my people, it's define, articulate, and sell your brand.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And who you sell to your target audience.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the people who will pay you.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're not looking for fans, we're looking for money who will pay you for your skills and for your new skills that you've upskilled into because you're always learning something.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you've always got work.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not at the same shop every day.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now with remote work, you know a lot of your time will be spent working at home.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's that's how it is.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually you learn to embrace it.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you have to hustle for work all the time, but um you know, I have a I have a good friend of mine who uh we he worked for a company, he's a graphic designer.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: He worked for a company for 10 years, and they just laid him off.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Did a great job, laid him off, yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he's but he's done a lot of freelance work on the side, and he was one of the people over to my home last night uh for the Oscars party.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um he said, you know what, I'm liking this freelance stuff.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: He likes the fact I took him to the um uh the museum for the motion picture academy, which is a couple of miles from where I live.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: He fell in love, and he said, I can go here whenever I want now.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he he because he's he's really enjoying the freedom.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the upside of it, where you're not dependent on the one client.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: You have multiple income streams, you have lots of clients.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: They go away, you find new ones because you're always in touch with your target market, you have a clear sense of how to articulate this is what I can do for you, sir or madam.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and they know you by reputation, that's your brand, reputation.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they say, Yes, we can use you.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Can you can you start on Monday?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: The project lasts two months, wonderful, I will take it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe we'll re-up for another two months.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if we don't, I've got other ways to make money.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good to go.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna take off and go to the museum this afternoon because I can.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: That I don't have to ask my boss, because I'm the boss.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's go into that a little bit more detail because everything you say around that sounds great.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it can also be quite a stressful life as well.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I can say this from personal experience as well, because in my past I've I've I've lived the um the the freelance, uh, the freelancer lifestyle, as it were.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I found personally, but we've also found with people that we work with that sit into that, uh fit into that category, there can be a very strong tendency to overwork.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and one of the reasons why you do is because you have so much uncertainty about what's next.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's interesting, right?
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: In the job, the regular job, the uncertainty is still there, but you can pretend it isn't, right?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: But in a world where you've got like, you know, this contract for a month, for example, and it's occupy and it's it's it's taking, I don't know, 40 or 50 hours of your life, there's such a tendency to be able to go, okay, I'm gonna pick the next gig that overlaps this gig, and I'll work 90 hours for a week or two because I know then I've got the next gig.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you, as an individual, if you're if if you're prone to that, if you if your risk reduction mechanism is always to do more work, how do you counter that so that you can actually be sustainable over time?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you you really have to learn to manage your time um and take care of yourself.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: The the old line, uh when you become an adult, you're you start treat you stop treating your body like an amusement park and start treating it like a temple.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you realize in order to do your best, um, you have to take care of yourself, which means rest, which means exercise, which means doing something else that isn't work, um, so that you can be at peak performance level whenever you do have to work.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh if you have some perspective on your life, you're not saving lives, you're not working in an ER, no one's gonna die if you uh I'm come on.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and some people do tend to take themselves too seriously and do bear down too hard, and then their bodies rebel and say, we're lying down for a while because this is too much.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a that's kind of a personal thing, and it may in some cases require some therapy because you because why are you working so hard?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Who what are you trying to prove?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: How much how much money do you actually need?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And at a certain point, um, as you as you upskill and your reputation increases and gets better and better, you can charge more.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: So you work less and make more.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you it what you used to do in 10 hours, you can do in two and spend the rest of the day at the beach.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, the please have have a have a little sense of perspective and humor about what you're doing.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: No one's gonna die.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay, and you get to recharge.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Let's move on to something, uh, to something else just before we go into the remote and hybrid um situations a little in a little bit more detail.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's another statement that I've heard you make, um, and I'll quote you directly.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um you said, I hold a doctorate in organizational leadership, and all theories of leadership and management can be reduced to four words.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be an asshole.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: So explain that, and um, and from whatever angle you want to explain it.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my wife is a Freudian analyst, um, which is I mean, she doesn't analyze me, um, but her perspective is is wonderful.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: And and one of the things I learned about from her, um, and I find this fascinating, that that the workplace mirrors what it was like um when you were growing up.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the mom and dad are the parents, okay, and the children.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's take that um 20 years forward.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: The mom and dad are now the boss, and the children are the workers.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So they're actually children in suits, yes?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and their job is to curry favor with mom and dad, with that parental figure, um, so that they'll be treated most favorably.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: The the person who is the boss, um, unfortunately, and I've worked a lot with graduate schools and MBA programs, etc.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh bosses, managers, leaders are trained in finance and marketing, and not so much in human relations.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, how they operate is the way their parents operated, which is I'm the daddy and you'll do what I say.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um there it there is a tendency because you have that power, because people shake and quake when you look at them cross-eyed because they're afraid they're going to lose their only source of income, there is a tendency to be an asshole, to lord it over them.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm and uh I think you you again, you have to work on yourself and understand yourself and how you're wired, yes, um, so that you resist the temptation to be abusive, which is it it's built in.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you're my boss, uh I have to I have to make sure you like me today, and then you know, if I do something wrong, that you're not gonna fire me.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: And your job as a boss is to reassure me that you hired me because I'm good at what I do, you trust me, and sometimes I screw up and it's okay, you know I'll fix it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're good.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Just stay in touch, and it's a safe space that you created for me.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think bosses, if they're enlightened in any way, need to resist being assholes because it's a default.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's how your parents were.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: They always accentuated the negative.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: How come you're not like your brother, Paul?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, look at him, he's terrific.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or how come you're not like your sister?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Stop it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Don't do that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: That disempowers people.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you want to you want to come from a place of trust and create a safe space for them and be kind.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: I listen, I know you're the boss, okay?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we don't you don't have to you don't have to walk in thumping your chest every time you walk in a room.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're the boss.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you also respect me and what I'm able to give to the organization.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't behave like an asshole, and I'm not shaking and quaking every time you walk in the room and afraid that I'm going to offend you in some way and maybe lose my job.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, one of the pieces of um context I provide on that that we've seen from our work is um bosses, managers, uh leaders of all sorts tend to massively overestimate um the power of their words, and they tend to massively underestimate the power of their actions.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all related actually to that, uh, to that hierarchy.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because the other thing as a as a as a parent that we often do is tell our kids to behave in a certain way and then model an entirely different behavior in terms of how we uh in terms of how we act.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Bosses do that all the time, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: They'll say, I expect you to do X, Y, or Z, even in like well-meaning scenarios, like, oh, I'd like you to, you know, I'd like you to take the day off or whatever, and then they work themselves into the ground right in front of you.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're modeling a behavior that is that is different to what you expect, or they're emailing you, emailing you at all hours and occasionally saying things like, oh, you don't have to come back to me right away, but then they'll email you and then they'll email you again an hour later because you haven't responded to them, right?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all about what you do as much as it is about what you say.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And many, many bosses almost seem to appear to forget that, even though it was a huge part of their own upbringing was the the behaviors their parents modeled, for example.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: They they don't train their workers and they're not trained themselves in how to manage people and take care of people and empower people, and and again, create that safe space where people feel free to make mistakes.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of the reason I hired you, is that you're creative, and sometimes that means you're gonna make mistakes.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: You'll clean it up.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be the daddy.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you made a mistake.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna feel it more yourself than I could.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I could I couldn't criticize you enough compared to how you're gonna criticize yourself for messing up.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I but you'll fix it.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I trust you, it's okay.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, kids pick up on what people, on what their parents do.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're very intuitive that way.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I miss that old line where the boss says, Um, my door is always open.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you go in there with an idea and you come out and you're and you're a flat tire.
• 30:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because they and you're never going back there.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just like a child, once they once they get abused, once they're not going back.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: As an employee, uh you said I should talk to you, I talked to you, and you shot me down.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's it on the ideas.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: I ain't coming to you again.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: I know what I'm gonna get, and it's certainly not gonna be someone who's gonna listen to what I have to say.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a safe space.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm leaving.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not now, but eventually I'm not gonna put up with this anymore.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: You are an you are an asshole.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was right.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so as you know, we do focus pretty extensively on uh on how work is changing with remote and hybrid work.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what's your take on the changes that we are seeing specifically as people are becoming physically disconnected from each other when they uh when they do work?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: I understand you've already spoken to a little bit about uh about what that means in terms of the individual potentially becoming the freelancer, and obviously that freelancer could be working for any organization in the world.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm I'm I'm curious as to what it what you think it means in inside a company setting.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you are a manager, for example, in that environment and you've become physically disconnected, your people are not down the corridor from you anymore.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: But you still need to motivate your employees, you still need to be in a position where you're getting the best you can out of those employees.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: What, if anything, do you think changes in terms of how you of the of the way in which you use some of the tools you have as a manager in a remote or hybrid world?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Tools is the right word.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a new tool.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um employers like it because it saves on real estate.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Employees like it because they don't have to get dressed.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um I you can work in your jammies at you know at start at two in the morning or ten in the morning.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care as long as the work gets done.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I think it it like any tool, you don't uh you don't overdo it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, you can computers are great, but if you work for 10 hours, you can't see anymore.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you you have to limit that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the hybrid model is an excellent model.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think a lot of the work that we can do now we can do remotely.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um but I think you need to be person to person.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing like being in a room with people physically and and having that opportunity to collaborate, which is not going to happen online.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I taught, I taught on Zoom for two years uh during COVID, and the teaching in a group situation was horrible because you're missing that collaboration and all the technical problems and the lighting, and I can't see you, and hang on a minute, my dog's in the room.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it was great working one-on-one with people because if I'm working with you on your resume, for example, I don't need the other 20 people in the room at the same time.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's absurd.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I would do one-on-one Zoom calls and coaching with each individual student every week.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: That was great.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's the upsides and downsides, it's not perfect.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the hybrid model is wonderful.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think if you could get, again, it's it comes back to trust.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you, if you if your employees trust you, you work collaboratively and figure out, listen, there we we can work hybrid most of the time, but we need to all come in the office these many times a week, these many times a month, at these hours to meet in person and sit and chat and talk and have coffee and just see what we can create together as a team and be able to collaborate.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing's ever gonna replace face-to-face.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think if you if the team agrees together, okay, how about twice a week from 10 to 2 on Mondays and Fridays?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do that.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the rest of the time, I trust you, and you're gonna check in, you're on an electronic leash anyway, yeah, and I'll trust you to do the work, and we're good to go.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: But we need to use this as a or see this as a very positive tool, but use it appropriately.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you don't use a hammer on everything.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you need a screwdriver.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes in person and sometimes on Zoom.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really interesting.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: We've as we've had these conversations over the course of the last few months, there's been some kind of coalescing of opinions and then some areas where people feel very differently.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, for example, we we certainly have worked with CEOs that um that have a 100% remote model and have figured out how figured out how to make it work.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: We have other people who are very, very focused on hybrid, some who firmly believe that you know you need at least a day in the office each week in order to be able to uh in order to be able to accomplish everything you need to accomplish.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I think one thing that is interesting that is definitely, despite the various different viewpoints that we're getting on the pod, is that um there is an increasing understanding that the work modalities are different, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that there are there are things that you get done as a team in a more um in a more combined setting, as it were, where people are collaborating efficiently and effectively in real time.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then there are things that are more effective and efficient to do asynchronously, where people are set aside.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you have to figure out what the specifics are for your organization, for the group, for the work that you're doing, as to what those ratios are in order to be able in order to be able to make it work well inside your organization.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it needs to be collaborative in terms of the team deciding, not the top-down, the team deciding we need to meet in person.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: What do you what does everyone think would be an ideal situation?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Would it be once a month, would it be once a week, twice a week, whatever, what hours, what days?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like I'm gonna tell you you're coming into the office, the old asshole boss thing.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, we agreed that this would be a benefit to the team to come in every Thursday from nine to four, once a week.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And no more than that.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think again, that needs to be collab, that decision needs to be collaborative well, so we're not forcing it on people who are getting very comfortable working uh remotely, but can also see, you know, it it'd really be nice to see these people in person, give them a hug, handshake, coffee, something like that.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very important.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let's uh let's finish with a topic that is actually quite close to my heart, and it's something that I've been on a little bit of a personal journey about as well, trying to uh trying to figure it out.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's it's something that you've written and spoken about a little in terms of of how teams in teams the focus needs to be on how little work we can do versus how much.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that this would be a pretty alien concept to a lot of people.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: So talk to me talk to me about that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean by that that needing to be the focus?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why would why would why would a team, why would anybody focus on doing as little work as possible?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that again, that's something that the boss has to get buy-in from the people he reports to, yes, that we're not paying you by the hour, we're paying you by the project.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the the game is, and we do this collaboratively again, um, what shortcuts can we put in so we spend as little time?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because the client doesn't care how much time you put in, they only care that you delivered on time and on or under budget.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: No one pats you on the, oh gee, you worked 18 hours, good boy.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: The game is I worked an hour and got it done because I'm so good at what I do, that's why you hired me.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so good at what I do, that's why you're paying a premium for my services for as long as I offer them to you, um, that I can get it done in an hour.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, great.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the the the client is happy, the customer's happy, my boss is happy, it's done.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is, you're right, it's an alien concept for a lot of people because we still work that old early 20th century model that you have to put in all these hours and overtime and so on and so forth.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're looking at um a work-based, a project-based approach, then then that's a matter of um uh efficiency.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yay, for us, we did take the you're we're you're are you done?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm done, great.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Have a good afternoon.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to the beach, great, have a good time, but wear some sunscreen.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's simple.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it it's again shifting your behavior, shifting your thinking, and then shifting your behavior so that you start to see it's not about the number of hours we put in, it's about how few hours we put in, and the job got done.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's the game.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a it's a fun game to play.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: But again, you have to have buy-in from the organization that they're not stuck in the past, like, well, they didn't put in their 10 hours today.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, they spent half of them you know playing on Instagram.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um come on.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you ideally you could put in some sort of bonus situation.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: How quickly can you get it done?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: You get a bonus for every hour you don't work or something.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's a it's a it's a that's a real shift.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I call it a shift in consciousness without the use of drugs.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: You start thinking about things in an entirely different way and behaving in a different way.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as the work gets done and the customer's happy, we're good.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: We when we work with organizations and teams on this, we we try to switch their thinking through a bit of a thought experiment, which is we we say, I want you to imagine two situations.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: So the first situation is that your employees are spending, you've given them an uh some outcomes that they you want them to drive, and your employees are working their tails off trying to get it, trying to get it accomplished.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: And uh maybe they're working 14-hour days or 16-hour days in order to be able to do it.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're working really hard, right?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you can be very proud of the fact that they're what that they're working really hard.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then in the second one, they're doing the same stuff, but they're taking one or two hours a day, and then they're spending the rest of the day on the beach, like say, right?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And now you having set that up, right, you then say, okay, now you've got an additional job that you need them to do.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Which team is going to be able to perform that additional job?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: Team A or Team B, right?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty obvious, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: But we do, but it's amazing how, like, when you when you start to think about it that way, a little light bulb goes off inside inside the organization to go, okay.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: So what you're basically saying really is something really simple, which is that one of these teams is way more efficient than the other.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: And because they are way more efficient than the other, then they have the ability to be able to adapt and adjust and deal with changing business conditions.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: The the ones that are maxed out, that are constantly, you know, pulling on sleep reserves or pulling on family reserves or, you know, family time or whatever it happens to be, that are constantly doing that, are constantly pulling on empty, they're never gonna be able to be able to adjust and adapt in the same way that the first that the first team is.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, like like putting incentives in place to drive that is really is is like I say, it's an alien concept in most cases, and it requires a complete shift in thinking.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean, uh a lot of bosses are are against remote work because I want them in the office.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see that they're working every moment of the day, nine hours a day.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Get over yourself.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, that's not the game anymore.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can trust them, they're getting the work done.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hello?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's a it's hard to get to the other side of that conversation and think in a whole new way.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's nice that you and I understand that, but you got to get the people in power to do it.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hopefully some of some of the folks that listen to this podcast will start thinking about it in a little different way as well.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: With that, that's a that's a great opportunity for us to leave it.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much, Dr.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Chaz.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Really appreciated our time today.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Paul.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: Great questions.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for all the research it is.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Very, very f fun talking to you, very stimulating.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Making remote work is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 43:04
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• 43:09
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• 44:00
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• 44:06
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• 44:51
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