Latest / Get Real with Jim Weiss / Dr. Reed Tuckson (Managing Director, Tuckson Health Connections)

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Dr. Reed Tuckson (Managing Director, Tuckson Health Connections) · Get Real with Jim Weiss

0:09
Speaker 1: I'm Jim Weiss, chairman and founder of Real Chemistry, and
0:12
Speaker 1: this is the Get Real with the Chairman podcast. In
0:19
Speaker 1: this episode, I'm speaking with doctor Reed Tucson, whose commitment
0:23
Speaker 1: to healthcare, health equity, and telehealth knows no bounds. Doctor
0:27
Speaker 1: Tucson is the managing director of Tucson Health Connections, a
0:31
Speaker 1: health and medical care consulting business, spearheading innovative projects and
0:36
Speaker 1: programs to address healthcare challenges while bringing people and ideas
0:40
Speaker 1: together to promote optimal health outcomes. Doctor Tucson is a
0:45
Speaker 1: highly respected figure and renowned for his contribution to the industry,
0:50
Speaker 1: including pivotal roles as former president of Charles R. Drew
0:53
Speaker 1: University of Medicine and Science, Health Commissioner for Washington, DC
0:58
Speaker 1: during the hiv A crisis, and the executive vice president
1:02
Speaker 1: in chief of Medical Affairs at United Health Group, where
1:06
Speaker 1: he played a role in shaping the company's medical and
1:09
Speaker 1: clinical policies. He's also a passionate advocate for health equity
1:14
Speaker 1: and committed to addressing health disparities and improving healthcare and
1:18
Speaker 1: diverse populations. He serves on an incredible and diverse list
1:22
Speaker 1: of boards, including the Coalition for Trust and health and
1:25
Speaker 1: science biotechnology company at Virium, which is developing gene therapy
1:31
Speaker 1: for macular degeneration. His advocacy for telehealth underscores his recognition
1:37
Speaker 1: of technologies potential to enhance medicine. I'm ecstatic that we
1:41
Speaker 1: have the chance to share his future focused mindset and
1:44
Speaker 1: dedication to health equity and reform with you all today.
1:51
Speaker 1: I remember my alma mater, Syracuse. Yours are Howard and
1:56
Speaker 1: Georgetown and Wharton, and there's certainly plenty of crazy going
2:01
Speaker 1: on on the campuses of late I'm still involved with
2:04
Speaker 1: Syracuse through some programs I do. There Are you still
2:07
Speaker 1: involved with any of those alma maters.
2:09
Speaker 2: I'm still very much involved with Howard, but not so
2:12
Speaker 2: much the hospital of the University of Pennsylvania or the
2:14
Speaker 2: Ward Beach, So no more Howard. I am very much
2:16
Speaker 2: involved with Howard, very much. And how So I just
2:20
Speaker 2: left the board of Directors after fourteen years, but I
2:23
Speaker 2: just joined the board of Visitors for the College of
2:25
Speaker 2: Arts and Sciences to be thinking about what is the
2:28
Speaker 2: future a student that should be produced out of a
2:30
Speaker 2: liberal arts program.
2:32
Speaker 1: Nice and I think one of the things you know
2:36
Speaker 1: you did back at U penn to bring that in
2:38
Speaker 1: the seventies you launched a radio program I believe aimed
2:42
Speaker 1: at African American listeners and organized a support group for
2:46
Speaker 1: sickle cell So this is highly interesting given what we
2:51
Speaker 1: know was a major set of breakthrough this past year
2:55
Speaker 1: and twenty three. How are you feeling about that? I mean,
2:58
Speaker 1: you obviously have been after life longer than most. Tell
3:02
Speaker 1: me what your thoughts are around that.
3:03
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I had one of the greatest
3:06
Speaker 2: experiences of my life. Jim was managing and working with
3:09
Speaker 2: people with sickle cell disease. Unfortunately, in the seventies, still
3:13
Speaker 2: as recently as that, people with this disease were really
3:16
Speaker 2: treated very poorly. They would come to the emergency room
3:19
Speaker 2: with enormous and extraordinary debilitating pain, and so often I
3:24
Speaker 2: watched as the magical so called soundproof curtain in the
3:28
Speaker 2: emergency room was pulled across the room and nurses would say, well,
3:33
Speaker 2: you know, they're just here for the drugs, and of
3:35
Speaker 2: course the patient could hear that, and the patient was
3:38
Speaker 2: under the obligation of somehow justify or proving that they
3:42
Speaker 2: were worthy of the most fundamental of human rights, which
3:45
Speaker 2: is to have their pain ameliorated. When it was possible
3:49
Speaker 2: to do so, and as a result of that, I
3:51
Speaker 2: was outraged as a junior resident at the hospital there,
3:54
Speaker 2: and so I did form the Sickle Cell group and
3:56
Speaker 2: we looked at and what we did was to find
3:59
Speaker 2: better ways of how to manage a patient when they
4:02
Speaker 2: walked into the doors, and made a consistent way of
4:05
Speaker 2: treating them from the time that they were in the
4:08
Speaker 2: er to admission and then getting them out. Part of
4:10
Speaker 2: what I learned there, which stayed with me all of
4:13
Speaker 2: my career, is how much the social environment, the mental
4:17
Speaker 2: health status of the patient, whether they were employed or not,
4:20
Speaker 2: whether they had any prospects for the concept of the
4:23
Speaker 2: possibility of a meaningful future, how all of those elements
4:27
Speaker 2: determined so often of the course of treatment and how
4:31
Speaker 2: long they stayed in the hospital and how well they did.
4:33
Speaker 2: And so we really learned to focus on those things.
4:36
Speaker 2: But as far now that we've got a drug to
4:38
Speaker 2: treat this, it's obviously very very exciting, and it turns
4:42
Speaker 2: the whole history of this disease, I think upside down.
4:45
Speaker 2: I think all of us have to be pleased. Now.
4:47
Speaker 2: The question will be access, affordability and still helping people
4:52
Speaker 2: to manage the social parts of their disease the bigger
4:55
Speaker 2: influence of JIM. I think what this means is this,
4:58
Speaker 2: many times we find in the black community a reluctance,
5:02
Speaker 2: for very good reasons, to participate intimately with the healthcare system,
5:06
Speaker 2: whether it's through clinical research, whether it's the relationship the
5:09
Speaker 2: patient has with their physician or relationship with the hospital.
5:12
Speaker 2: What I think we're starting to see from this is
5:15
Speaker 2: tangible evidence that by participating in clinical research that you
5:20
Speaker 2: can do that in a way that is trustworthy, dignified, respectful,
5:25
Speaker 2: and that delivers value. And so I think that one
5:28
Speaker 2: of the things that we need to use this experience
5:31
Speaker 2: and build on is to be able to now really
5:34
Speaker 2: engage the black community that says, when you participate, here's
5:38
Speaker 2: what we have learned, we've learned better how to manage
5:41
Speaker 2: this disease, that disease, this condition. But unfortunately we have
5:45
Speaker 2: not been doing that, and so people come in to
5:47
Speaker 2: get clinical trials, they interact with that, and then nothing happens.
5:52
Speaker 2: We don't know about it, We don't know whether what
5:54
Speaker 2: we learned what we didn't learn here, I think is
5:56
Speaker 2: a great model, and that's one of the things I
5:58
Speaker 2: plan to do with this is to build on this
6:01
Speaker 2: to engender that sense of trust as we get more
6:04
Speaker 2: folks to be more intimately involved in clinical trials clinical research.
6:07
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good segue into how we met around
6:10
Speaker 1: the Black Coalition on COVID? Is that still going strong?
6:14
Speaker 1: I mean, where are we? Because I mean one of
6:16
Speaker 1: the things going on in our world today is spiking
6:20
Speaker 1: amounts of RSV and flu and of course COVID, is
6:24
Speaker 1: that still a necessary functioning group that has to help
6:29
Speaker 1: make sure, you know, people are vaccinated so the effects
6:33
Speaker 1: of this you know, virus are lower in them.
6:37
Speaker 2: Well, first let me just pause and take them moment
6:40
Speaker 2: to say to you and your team at real chemistry.
6:43
Speaker 2: When we were creating this Black Coalition against COVID, which
6:46
Speaker 2: started out as a grassroots, community based effort in Washington,
6:50
Speaker 2: d C. Utilizing community based influences across the full spectrum
6:55
Speaker 2: of relevance for Living Light, and I mean by that
6:58
Speaker 2: the faith leaders, the poets, musicians, the small business owners,
7:02
Speaker 2: the academics, everybody that is a part of life. And
7:05
Speaker 2: so we brought all them in to work on how
7:08
Speaker 2: do we educate people about the preventive elements before there
7:12
Speaker 2: was a vaccine. Very quickly we understood that what was
7:15
Speaker 2: going to be key would be to get a vaccine,
7:17
Speaker 2: which meant clinical trials, and so that turned us to
7:21
Speaker 2: the four Black medical schools. Howard Maharry Morause drew the
7:25
Speaker 2: Black Medical Society, the Black Nurses Association, and the largest
7:29
Speaker 2: digital publisher of health information, blackdoctor dot org. We brought
7:32
Speaker 2: all them together and turned the Black Coalition against COVID
7:35
Speaker 2: into a national organization, and we did almost thirty national
7:39
Speaker 2: town halls, reaching some nights as many as eight hundred
7:42
Speaker 2: thousand because we got all the black fraternities and sororities
7:46
Speaker 2: and political organizations all together one night right before Christmas
7:50
Speaker 2: two years ago to try to make sure we were
7:52
Speaker 2: ready for Thanksgiving and Christmas. And what you did at
7:55
Speaker 2: Real Chemistry was to give us the communications expertise that
7:59
Speaker 2: made all the different wrench to us. Is it still useful. Absolutely?
8:02
Speaker 2: In fact, we are now having to gear back up
8:05
Speaker 2: again and I just have done now a numerous number
8:08
Speaker 2: of community meetings where the community is asking us, now
8:12
Speaker 2: please come and tell us what we should be doing.
8:14
Speaker 2: And now we're, as you're indicated, correctly, having to talk
8:18
Speaker 2: about RSV blue and COVID at the same time. So
8:22
Speaker 2: to conclude that answer. I think that what we always
8:24
Speaker 2: are going to learn is that there needs to be support,
8:29
Speaker 2: tangible support for community based, faith based organizations. And we're
8:34
Speaker 2: partnering with black physicians in a sustained way, always engaging
8:40
Speaker 2: with black community. And the tragedy has been and this
8:43
Speaker 2: is I don't think there's anything that has irritated me
8:46
Speaker 2: more from this pandemic they and having to always start
8:50
Speaker 2: from scratch. We create the diseases of the week, the
8:53
Speaker 2: crisis of the moment, and then all of a sudden
8:55
Speaker 2: we go run around in the circles, and then the
8:57
Speaker 2: tide washes in and the sand castles on the edge
9:00
Speaker 2: of the beach wash away. We have got to find
9:03
Speaker 2: a way, through philanthropy and through federal support to have
9:08
Speaker 2: a sustained community, faith based health professional infrastructure that we
9:13
Speaker 2: can then run many different cars over that highway. And
9:17
Speaker 2: that's really what we need to do. And so I
9:19
Speaker 2: do hope all the corporations they have skin in the game,
9:21
Speaker 2: would start to realize that it makes sense to invest
9:25
Speaker 2: now in a sustainable infrastructure, which then every single company
9:30
Speaker 2: would be able to use, the CDC would be able
9:32
Speaker 2: to use, the FDA would be able to use and
9:34
Speaker 2: so forth.
9:34
Speaker 1: I'm involved and have gotten to know family reach and
9:38
Speaker 1: they help with access. I mean you mentioned because that's
9:42
Speaker 1: a big part of it. Right, If you don't get
9:44
Speaker 1: the treatments, if the sickle cell breakthrough doesn't result in access,
9:50
Speaker 1: that it's for not right. What's the point? And by
9:53
Speaker 1: the way, you said that was the seventies. I've seen
9:56
Speaker 1: stories that treatment of circle salvations, even one two three
10:01
Speaker 1: years ago was the same. You know, it hasn't really
10:05
Speaker 1: evolved that much. Is that why you got involved with
10:08
Speaker 1: the Coalition for Trust and Health and Science. Is that
10:11
Speaker 1: an organizing principle that can help create this or is
10:15
Speaker 1: that something somewhat different? Should we think of these as complementary?
10:20
Speaker 2: Trurely, the experience that we so painfully had to go
10:25
Speaker 2: through with COVID in the black community was again this
10:28
Speaker 2: sense of distrust. We had to go through and relitigate
10:31
Speaker 2: Tuskegee and Henrietta Lax. Yeah, all of those elements. We
10:35
Speaker 2: had to just go through it yet again. And this
10:38
Speaker 2: is what got me, Jim, was did I realized that
10:41
Speaker 2: when I was lucky enough to be the Commissioner of
10:43
Speaker 2: Public Health in Washington, d C. In the eighties, during
10:46
Speaker 2: the height of the AIDS epidemic, the number one issue
10:49
Speaker 2: we had to litigate was Tuskegee. And I looked up
10:52
Speaker 2: and realized that in forty years, the health system, the
10:57
Speaker 2: research system, the health policy system had done nothing in
11:01
Speaker 2: forty years to take Tuskegee off the table. That's absolutely
11:05
Speaker 2: outrageous if we had done nothing, and why do we
11:09
Speaker 2: have to start over? But then what we really also
11:12
Speaker 2: learned as we looked up and saw the success that
11:16
Speaker 2: black people had in the second year of the pandemic,
11:19
Speaker 2: the success that we had in closing the gap in
11:22
Speaker 2: vaccinations for COVID. How we were better at wearing masks,
11:27
Speaker 2: were better at avoiding all the negative behavior, and as
11:30
Speaker 2: a result, black life expectancy second year better than White America.
11:36
Speaker 2: And that made me start to go, wait a minute,
11:39
Speaker 2: this isn't just a Black issue, this distrust, this misinformation,
11:42
Speaker 2: this is an American issue. And red counties and red
11:45
Speaker 2: states were doing worse than we were in the black community,
11:49
Speaker 2: and that made me realize this is a national issue.
11:51
Speaker 2: And so the Coalition for Trust in Health and Science
11:54
Speaker 2: really emerged out of the pain of everybody's premature death.
11:59
Speaker 2: It wasn't a black thing. It wasn't a white thing.
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Speaker 2: It was an American thing. And once I started to
12:04
Speaker 2: realize the speed with which misinformation was gathering and how
12:09
Speaker 2: intimately it was intertwined with the American social fabric, it
12:14
Speaker 2: was very easy to bring my collaborators together, and together
12:18
Speaker 2: our founding group have really launched this coldition of trusting
12:21
Speaker 2: health and Science, which for the first time in history,
12:23
Speaker 2: as you know, has united and brought together the entire
12:27
Speaker 2: breadth of the American health ecosystem. And ninety plus organizations
12:32
Speaker 2: are now members of the Culture for Trusting Health and
12:35
Speaker 2: Sciets and we have the entire fabric of the American
12:38
Speaker 2: ecosystem working together on this highly principled and mission driven issue.
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Speaker 1: So there's ninety Do you think there's ninety more we
12:46
Speaker 1: need to go get? I mean? Or are we missing
12:49
Speaker 1: some people? One of the driving question in your career
12:52
Speaker 1: is how we form coalition and create change that way?
12:57
Speaker 1: I mean, that's been what you've dedicated your life. So
13:00
Speaker 1: how does healthcare, business, government, everyone that my audience comprises,
13:07
Speaker 1: you know, how can they work together here and get involved?
13:10
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, this is great, and I must
13:13
Speaker 2: give all due praise and respect to Bio and to Pharma.
13:17
Speaker 2: I will tell you that those were two of my
13:19
Speaker 2: first five calls to see what you join in, and
13:23
Speaker 2: there was no difficulty, no hesitancy on the part of
13:27
Speaker 2: both Bio and Farma to join in and be initial
13:30
Speaker 2: adopters of the colorership of trust in health and Science
13:33
Speaker 2: and have provided great support. So I think what will
13:36
Speaker 2: happen now is what we've got are the massive, the
13:38
Speaker 2: big organizations, so the American Hospital Association, the American Medical Association,
13:43
Speaker 2: you know, the American Health Insurance Plans AHIM, you know,
13:46
Speaker 2: the big organizations. That's what constitutes those ninety. What we
13:51
Speaker 2: will be doing now is going underneath that into the
13:54
Speaker 2: specific company so that we already know that. Several of
13:57
Speaker 2: the people who are close to you and who watch
14:00
Speaker 2: this show have asked can they join. Our challenge has
14:03
Speaker 2: been that we launched this with zero dollars and zero staff.
14:08
Speaker 2: We still have zero staff and almost zero dollars, so
14:11
Speaker 2: managing this and all the work we've been doing has
14:14
Speaker 2: really really been challenged. But now I think we're starting
14:17
Speaker 2: to people starting to say, hey, I think we'd like
14:19
Speaker 2: to give you a few dollars. So, by the way,
14:21
Speaker 2: anybody out there. I'm not ashamed to say touch base
14:24
Speaker 2: with us. We need the money. But what I'm getting
14:27
Speaker 2: at here is as we begin to have executional competence,
14:31
Speaker 2: we will then be able to bring in individual companies.
14:34
Speaker 2: And yes, it is now time.
14:36
Speaker 1: Are there adjacent groups that we should be supporting or
14:40
Speaker 1: thinking about, Like even our own government has mistrust distrust
14:44
Speaker 1: in health and science and ways that I find a
14:48
Speaker 1: little surprising given what we're bringing to the world. But
14:53
Speaker 1: everyone gets hit by the balancing ball, right, You're going
14:56
Speaker 1: to have a health problem, You're going to have an issue.
15:00
Speaker 1: What are the organizations we need to be supporting more?
15:04
Speaker 2: If there's one that I would raise up as the
15:07
Speaker 2: most important, it is the Association of Science Teachers. These
15:12
Speaker 2: are the folks on the front lines who are really,
15:15
Speaker 2: really struggling. And I think you know from the American
15:18
Speaker 2: political discourse, and I want to be very careful not
15:21
Speaker 2: to get partisan here because everything I'm about is trying
15:25
Speaker 2: to bring people together. So I'm I'm going to choose
15:28
Speaker 2: my words carefully, but I think we have seen that unfortunately,
15:32
Speaker 2: there are certain elements of the society that have gone
15:35
Speaker 2: out to attack the judicial systems, and now they are
15:38
Speaker 2: making the school boards the next battleground. What you hear
15:42
Speaker 2: when you talk to many of these science people and
15:45
Speaker 2: the communities around the country is talking about genetics is
15:50
Speaker 2: very difficult. Talking about these kinds of science, evidence based
15:53
Speaker 2: issues is difficult because they can't get past evolution and creationism.
15:57
Speaker 2: So that's where the fights are down at that level,
16:00
Speaker 2: and so I think the school board fights are going
16:03
Speaker 2: to be very important. We do not see, Jim, We
16:06
Speaker 2: do not see a significant or certainly not an appropriate
16:10
Speaker 2: amount of money being put into our local schools to
16:13
Speaker 2: teach our students how to be rational consumers of health
16:19
Speaker 2: and medical care. Just think in your mind, and what
16:21
Speaker 2: you understand is that almost all of medicine is genetics.
16:25
Speaker 2: When you really get to where we are now, genetics
16:28
Speaker 2: is the is just imbuted everything. But ask someone if
16:32
Speaker 2: they know how to make a statistical, probabilistic decision around
16:37
Speaker 2: their health. When the answer is not yes you have it,
16:40
Speaker 2: no you don't, but the possibilities of getting at the
16:43
Speaker 2: likelihood of Just the other day, I met, by coincidence,
16:48
Speaker 2: in a standing in line and to get lunch, I
16:51
Speaker 2: met the Nobel Prize winner from the University of Pennsylvania,
16:54
Speaker 2: and nih who did the founding work that led to
16:57
Speaker 2: the mRNA vaccine. I met this human and I looked
17:01
Speaker 2: at this person and I went, we owe you so much.
17:05
Speaker 2: I am so honored to meet you. But then when
17:07
Speaker 2: you realize that his genius and the result of the
17:11
Speaker 2: others that did that, we announced that we have a
17:14
Speaker 2: vaccine that can save millions of lives, and yet people say,
17:18
Speaker 2: what is that? You're trying to kill me? This is
17:21
Speaker 2: a bad thing. We are going to have to make
17:24
Speaker 2: sure that any high school kid that is graduating understands
17:28
Speaker 2: basic things. And so if we don't adopt these secondary
17:32
Speaker 2: science teachers associations, we will have the same problem five
17:36
Speaker 2: years from now that we are having today. Please call
17:40
Speaker 2: your local folks up wherever your state or city or
17:44
Speaker 2: county school board is and check to see where things are.
17:47
Speaker 2: Is there the money is their resource? And do those
17:49
Speaker 2: teachers have the freedom to talk about real science without
17:54
Speaker 2: having some kind of other overlay that ties their him.
17:57
Speaker 1: So tell me how do you spend your days? We
18:00
Speaker 1: just went through everything from sickle cell to mRNA and
18:05
Speaker 1: COVID and Coalition for Trust and Health and Science. So
18:08
Speaker 1: how do you split your day? How do you accomplish
18:11
Speaker 1: all you get done? I mean, what's the secret to that?
18:16
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing for me to get anything done
18:19
Speaker 2: is to try to make sure that I am very
18:22
Speaker 2: clear from the first moment I wake up in the morning,
18:25
Speaker 2: and I spend good time on that jim to make
18:28
Speaker 2: sure that I get out of the way. I get
18:30
Speaker 2: out of my own way. Why am I doing this work?
18:32
Speaker 2: I have to ask myself every day. Is this about
18:35
Speaker 2: me trying to build a power base? Is this about
18:38
Speaker 2: read having an ego? Is this about read needing to
18:40
Speaker 2: be I got to get all that crap out of
18:42
Speaker 2: the way so that I become a pure conductor of
18:45
Speaker 2: the energy that has to occur. Because most of my
18:48
Speaker 2: work is collaborating with others, and so the great luck
18:51
Speaker 2: that I have in this world is that I get
18:54
Speaker 2: to work with really, really smart people in so many
18:57
Speaker 2: different disciplines. So I spend my days most trying to
19:01
Speaker 2: engage and get the best out of people that are
19:04
Speaker 2: like ten times smarter than everyone I work with is
19:07
Speaker 2: ten times smarter than I am. So it's easy to
19:10
Speaker 2: me to get out of the middle and then find
19:12
Speaker 2: out where the common ground is. And the good thing
19:15
Speaker 2: about this is, like with the colorership of trust and
19:17
Speaker 2: health and science. We have a number of initiatives that
19:20
Speaker 2: are all moving forward. Why are they moving forward because
19:23
Speaker 2: there are a lot of really smart people inside of
19:26
Speaker 2: health and outside of health who have a willingness to
19:30
Speaker 2: come together and bring their work together. So a lot
19:33
Speaker 2: of my time is just the blocking and tackling of calling,
19:36
Speaker 2: schedulinging and just keeping things moving.
19:40
Speaker 1: Every day, moving, moving, moving.
19:42
Speaker 2: I am a relentless get it done. I care not
19:46
Speaker 2: one wit about how many agents can dance on the
19:49
Speaker 2: head of a pen. And I also spend a lot
19:51
Speaker 2: of energy, you know, shutting down negativism and oh my god,
19:55
Speaker 2: we can't do it or we've always done it this
19:57
Speaker 2: way before, thinking and just finding the best people to
20:01
Speaker 2: keep us moving forward. I live a very lucky light
20:04
Speaker 2: in the sense that I get to work with really
20:06
Speaker 2: terrific people. And by the way, the great thing, Jim
20:09
Speaker 2: is there are about a zillion times more good people
20:12
Speaker 2: than bad.
20:20
Speaker 1: Now I want to shift into a section I'm calling
20:23
Speaker 1: so what's it all mean? Where we hear about your
20:25
Speaker 1: work and action and how it's playing out in the
20:27
Speaker 1: real world. Well, let's go to another you know, hot topic.
20:38
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you have thoughts because we tend
20:41
Speaker 1: to only react to sort of emergencies, right, that's when
20:44
Speaker 1: everybody it's about reacting, not acting. What about AI? Can
20:49
Speaker 1: AI help? Is there a role for this new technology
20:54
Speaker 1: on both the educational front and accessibility front? You know,
21:00
Speaker 1: will we be able to access it through our phones?
21:03
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously Apple has the whole app
21:07
Speaker 1: around health. Can the void be filled other ways with
21:11
Speaker 1: some of the new technology or is it access to telehealth?
21:15
Speaker 1: I mean, now I saw the ads Amazons beginning to
21:18
Speaker 1: integrate the one medical element. I know you're a big
21:22
Speaker 1: proponent of that. Is there a way that democratizing access
21:26
Speaker 1: through those means well that do you think that'll help?
21:29
Speaker 2: First of all, I get very excited by innovation. I
21:32
Speaker 2: love the march of intellectual and scientific progress, so I
21:35
Speaker 2: get very excited. I also know this innovation for innovation's
21:39
Speaker 2: sake is meaningless, and so we need to make sure
21:42
Speaker 2: that our innovation leads us down pathways that are good
21:46
Speaker 2: and avoids pathways that are bad. We will have no
21:49
Speaker 2: choice about AI already. It is ubiquitous. It is its
21:52
Speaker 2: own thing. It is a genie out of the bottle.
21:54
Speaker 2: It is uncontrolled, it is unregulated. It is what it
21:58
Speaker 2: is going to be. It has the great potential for
22:01
Speaker 2: doing good things, but it also has an enormous potential
22:04
Speaker 2: for bad things. I am very concerned about what AI
22:07
Speaker 2: will mean in terms of misinformation and disinformation and distrust,
22:11
Speaker 2: because very soon we all will start to realize that
22:15
Speaker 2: we don't know who actually said what. We will not
22:18
Speaker 2: know whether the photograph we are looking at is real
22:21
Speaker 2: or not or manufactured. This will be used or misused
22:25
Speaker 2: by people who have very negative agendas, and it will
22:28
Speaker 2: be very easy for them to do it now saying
22:31
Speaker 2: that they're also equally smart people on the other side
22:34
Speaker 2: who are looking at it and finding ways to A
22:38
Speaker 2: help us to educate people more easily, and b help
22:41
Speaker 2: us to discover and reveal when we have been manipulated
22:45
Speaker 2: by AI. So it's a good thing and the bad thing.
22:48
Speaker 1: I mean, I find that this is where we bonded,
22:51
Speaker 1: and you know, we're really out there trying to make
22:54
Speaker 1: this less. I guess fraud and fearful, right, I think
22:59
Speaker 1: that's so much of what we see that negativism is
23:03
Speaker 1: grounded in fear.
23:04
Speaker 2: From what I've learned and the thing Jim that brought
23:06
Speaker 2: us together. Is this the death nail for the American society?
23:10
Speaker 2: And I believe the death knell for the American opportunity
23:14
Speaker 2: for optimum health is tribalism, This sense that I am
23:18
Speaker 2: in my own little bucket and everybody outside of me
23:21
Speaker 2: is the enemy, and I got to keep protecting my
23:24
Speaker 2: little bucket. And by the way, my little tribe gets
23:26
Speaker 2: smaller and smaller and more insular and insular. And what
23:30
Speaker 2: I think is exciting is about the coalitions and the
23:33
Speaker 2: work we're doing and my reaching out to you. You
23:35
Speaker 2: and I may not have a lot in common to
23:38
Speaker 2: normal just our walking around experiences. You live a different
23:41
Speaker 2: stratosphere that I'm living, and yet I can call you
23:44
Speaker 2: on the phone and all of a sudden we said,
23:46
Speaker 2: wait a minute, we can work together. We can be
23:49
Speaker 2: selfless and work together. And that's what I'm seeing all
23:51
Speaker 2: across the board. So let's get I'm begging everybody, get
23:56
Speaker 2: out of your tribe. We are human beings and our
24:00
Speaker 2: survival is so intertwined and it seems so logical. So
24:05
Speaker 2: this year, for me, I'm rejecting all negativism, I'm rejecting
24:09
Speaker 2: all insularism, and I'm rejecting all tribalism. I'm canceling all
24:13
Speaker 2: the demographic ways that people can describe me. I don't
24:16
Speaker 2: want to hear it anymore. What box you put me in,
24:18
Speaker 2: you are not allowed to put me in a box.
24:21
Speaker 2: The only box I will be in is I'm in
24:22
Speaker 2: the human box.
24:24
Speaker 1: I like that box. That's a great box. So, speaking
24:27
Speaker 1: of human any books you've read recently, or movies you've seen,
24:31
Speaker 1: or shows you've watched that have moved you, even just
24:34
Speaker 1: funny or awesome.
24:36
Speaker 2: First of all, the people that I'm reading right now
24:38
Speaker 2: and reading a lot, is of spiritual writer and Thomas Murden,
24:42
Speaker 2: Thomas Merten is just absolutely fantastic. And I spend every
24:46
Speaker 2: morning with a poet named Roomy who wrote in the
24:49
Speaker 2: twelfth century Persian poet. If you don't know about Rumy,
24:53
Speaker 2: and if you've never read his work, just go there
24:55
Speaker 2: and from the very first time you read his work
24:57
Speaker 2: you will go, oh, okay, I got it. But tell you, Jim,
25:00
Speaker 2: there was an article that I read last night that
25:03
Speaker 2: brought me to tears and then to joy, and I
25:07
Speaker 2: wish I knew her name. A woman who went in
25:09
Speaker 2: for a surgical for one procedure and Unfortunately, she had
25:13
Speaker 2: an infectious disease. It was pretty difficult, and without having
25:16
Speaker 2: any premonition that this would happen, I woke up with
25:19
Speaker 2: her legs amputated and it wasn't a misadventure. It was
25:22
Speaker 2: unfortunately that the surgeons had to amputate her legs and
25:25
Speaker 2: she found out when she woke up that they will
25:27
Speaker 2: have to probably amputate her arms. This woman's attitude was
25:32
Speaker 2: since they filmed her and she was talking on them
25:34
Speaker 2: and I've read this just stay in the news, and
25:36
Speaker 2: she says, I am so glad that I'm alive, and
25:39
Speaker 2: I am so glad that I will be able to
25:41
Speaker 2: see my children, and I am so glad that I
25:43
Speaker 2: can participate in this thing called life. So if they're
25:46
Speaker 2: going to take my arms to you know what, I
25:49
Speaker 2: am alive and I want to stay alive. I have
25:53
Speaker 2: never heard another human being more amazing than this woman was.
25:59
Speaker 2: She was not going to have a pity party. She
26:02
Speaker 2: was not sad. She was joyful. That blew my mind.
26:06
Speaker 2: And I said that a rent people. I said, y'all
26:08
Speaker 2: got to see this lady. Unbelievable.
26:10
Speaker 1: Well, I can relate, as you know, I'm going through it. Personally.
26:14
Speaker 1: My wife's struggling well, actually fighting hard, and she had
26:17
Speaker 1: a friend who told her that cancer is a gift
26:20
Speaker 1: wrapped in barbed wire, but that in some ways, these
26:24
Speaker 1: things that people go through, there is that one worse thing,
26:29
Speaker 1: which is not being here to experience what we call
26:33
Speaker 1: the joys and challenges of living. I think that's how
26:36
Speaker 1: you're going into twenty four. It's a good theme as
26:39
Speaker 1: a beginning. So let's dream big. What do you dream
26:43
Speaker 1: of in healthcare? What's beyond all probability but somehow still possible.
26:49
Speaker 2: I think you know, it's a big, audacious dream, but
26:51
Speaker 2: it's very straightforward, and that is that every person has
26:57
Speaker 2: access to the information that they need and the ability
27:02
Speaker 2: to understand that information to make personally appropriate, evidence based
27:07
Speaker 2: choices and decisions for themselves, their families, and the communities
27:12
Speaker 2: in which they live. That to me is if we
27:15
Speaker 2: can get to a place where we have, first of all,
27:18
Speaker 2: a shared vision for health for where we live, if
27:22
Speaker 2: we could actually come together with assets, and when we
27:25
Speaker 2: don't have assets, rich communities, poor communities, what we can
27:29
Speaker 2: bring together the churches, the specific associations of fraternities, soro.
27:34
Speaker 2: We can all bring assets together to fight the problems
27:39
Speaker 2: that exist where we live and have a shared vision
27:41
Speaker 2: for what that health looks like. So that's the beautiful
27:45
Speaker 2: dream that you can have where we care about life,
27:48
Speaker 2: you know, Jim, Let's just remember and realize the worst
27:53
Speaker 2: teaching that we got, the worst thing that was revealed
27:56
Speaker 2: from the COVID pandemic was that we can out assume
28:01
Speaker 2: that the American people actually care about whether we live
28:04
Speaker 2: or die. That I don't even feel comfortable saying that
28:07
Speaker 2: outlete that we are actually comfortable with a million deaths.
28:12
Speaker 2: We are comfortable when at least three hundred thousand of
28:15
Speaker 2: them were pretty vegetable. But it's it's somehow or another,
28:19
Speaker 2: it's okay. I can't get my head around that. I
28:23
Speaker 2: cannot even I don't even want to say it. But
28:26
Speaker 2: my point being, we've got to get to a place
28:28
Speaker 2: where it matters whether we live or die and the
28:31
Speaker 2: quality of that survival. So our community. Can our community
28:34
Speaker 2: say I care about whether we live or die and
28:37
Speaker 2: we're going to work together. And then in that and
28:40
Speaker 2: once you have that, then can I get everyone the
28:44
Speaker 2: information that they need and the ability to organize and
28:49
Speaker 2: understand that information so that they can truly make personally
28:54
Speaker 2: appropriate choices that make a difference with themselves, their families,
28:58
Speaker 2: and ultimately for the creed. That's the big, Harry audacious goal.
29:02
Speaker 2: It is reachable. There's no reason why we can't do it.
29:07
Speaker 1: Well. That's why I do what I do. That is
29:09
Speaker 1: the dream, that is the vision. It's why I wake
29:13
Speaker 1: up every morning, I mean, and do the work I've
29:16
Speaker 1: done my whole life. So I really love how you
29:19
Speaker 1: brought that together, and I wouldn't add more to it.
29:22
Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks for catching up with me.
29:25
Speaker 1: Let's ACTI date the communities we can. That's all we
29:28
Speaker 1: can do, and I really appreciate you spending a few
29:31
Speaker 1: minutes with me today to help do that. Well.
29:34
Speaker 2: Thank you, brother. I love you man, and again I
29:37
Speaker 2: will always be grateful, ever so much grateful for what
29:40
Speaker 2: you and your colleagues at Real Chemistry did at a
29:44
Speaker 2: time we had no friends, and you gave us at
29:48
Speaker 2: least I think conservatively a million dollars worth of free
29:52
Speaker 2: effort before our black coaches against COVID, and probably nobody
29:55
Speaker 2: knows it. That's why I'm saying out loud now, and
29:57
Speaker 2: I know it embarrasses you, but my friend, when we
30:01
Speaker 2: needed you. You were there, my brother. I'll never forget you.
30:05
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, and I'll always be here. Thanks to
30:11
Speaker 1: everyone listening to Get Real with the Chairman podcast is
30:15
Speaker 1: a production of Real Chemistry. Our executive producer and researcher
30:19
Speaker 1: is Kate Voss, and a special thanks as always to
30:22
Speaker 1: Danielle Clark Brown and our team at Real Chemistry. If
30:26
Speaker 1: you liked what you heard, don't forget to rate and
30:28
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30:32
Speaker 1: you listen. Also, please subscribe or follow the podcast so
30:36
Speaker 1: you don't miss an episode. In the meantime, keep it
30:40
Speaker 1: real and be a real health citizen.