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255: Is Your Customer Experience Better—or Are You Just Measuring the Wrong Things? · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 0:47
  Welcome back to the Customer Service Revolution podcast, where we talk about what it really takes to make customer experience your strongest competitive advantage.
• 0:56
  Today's episode is about a gap that should get every leader's attention.
• 1:00
  A 2026 customer experience report from Medallia found that 66 % of CX practitioners believe customer experience improved last year, but only 17 % of consumers agree.
• 1:12
  That's not a small gap.
• 1:14
  That's a reality check.
• 1:15
  So today I'm asking John DiJulius why do companies so often believe they're delivering a better experience than customers say they are?
• 1:24
  Are leaders measuring the wrong things?
• 1:26
  Are dashboards giving false confidence?
• 1:28
  And how can organizations get closer to the truth before customers quietly leave?
• 1:33
  John, this one feels important because it's not about companies that don't care.
• 1:37
  In many cases, they do care.
• 1:39
  They're investing.
• 1:40
  in customer experience.
• 1:41
  They're collecting feedback, they're tracking scores, but somehow the customer still is not feeling the improvement.
• 1:48
  When you hear that 66 % of CX professionals believe experience is improving, but only 17 % of customers agree, what does that tell you?
• 1:58
  Well, there definitely is a gap.
• 2:00
  There's a lot of things that could be at play here.
• 2:03
  If we want to give them the benefit of doubt, there, I think we've talked about this in the past, there is a delay between when you do something and when the customer really
• 2:13
  feels it, right?
• 2:14
  It takes a while and to cycle through all your customers, depending on your business.
• 2:19
  But...
• 2:20
  You know, the other things is, you know, people are, a lot of leaders are implementing AI, which is great, but that could be frustrating the customer.
• 2:31
  I was reading something yesterday that,
• 2:33
  I forget the percentage, but percentage of frontline employees, and I think they call them Gen Zs, and I don't know if they call them millennials, but they said have sabotaged AI
• 2:44
  efforts because they're scared it's going to take their job.
• 2:48
  You have that, but I think it's just, know, the frontline, you know, doesn't relate to the customer.
• 2:57
  Usually the customer-facing employee is not the customer.
• 3:01
  demographically, quality of life, know, all those things.
• 3:05
  So it doesn't mean we change who we hire, but we got to help them understand what the customer is going through, why they're using your company, what frustration points they
• 3:14
  have.
• 3:14
  Because if you've never been a customer yourself, you won't know what it's like.
• 3:18
  you've never stayed at a Ritz-Carlton, you don't know why you're staying at a Ritz-Carlton, opposed to a Marriott or a Hilton or anywhere else.
• 3:26
  But then...
• 3:27
  You know, from a leadership team, when you're buried in a P &L, like you often are, and you have to be, everything looks like an expense.
• 3:36
  And, you know, you could really start cutting corners and not realizing what has the greatest ROI.
• 3:42
  So.
• 3:43
  You mentioned at the top of that there being a lag sometimes when you implement something.
• 3:49
  How much do you think matters to people have an initiative that they put in place, but maybe they didn't execute it properly?
• 3:57
  Yeah, I think that's most of the time.
• 3:58
  mean, it's flavor of the month, program of the year, management by best seller, chasing shiny objects, really seeing it through.
• 4:07
  you know, do they have a CX leader, a champion?
• 4:11
  Do they have a steering committee that represents each department, a task force?
• 4:18
  So they're finding out, you know, what...
• 4:20
  is working, what is not working, what is implemented.
• 4:24
  We've gone over the five or six things it takes to successfully launch something.
• 4:30
  The first three are the easiest.
• 4:31
  Creating the idea and then launching it is the easiest.
• 4:37
  what follows after that.
• 4:39
  Measuring, are you actually doing it?
• 4:41
  Are the customers seeing a feedback?
• 4:43
  Training and coaching.
• 4:45
  accountability, all that's the hard part.
• 4:47
  That's the hard part to actually see if they're doing it and not move on to the next thing.
• 4:52
  You also mentioned that the front line is often disconnected from the customer because they haven't been the customer.
• 4:58
  Why do leaders become disconnected from what the customers are actually experiencing?
• 5:04
  Well, you know, there's a tipping point in a company that...
• 5:09
  First, the leader's doing too many things and wearing every hat, the entrepreneur.
• 5:13
  Hats they shouldn't be wearing, but it's just the nature of a startup.
• 5:17
  And then eventually as they grow and they get resources, they can hire a CFO, they can hire a chief marketing officer, they can hire different things.
• 5:27
  It doesn't necessarily mean things are taken off their plate.
• 5:31
  just, know, bigger.
• 5:32
  bigger problems, they got to answer to a board, they got to answer to shareholders, they got to answer to a bunch of different things.
• 5:39
  But again, when you become so PNL obsessed, everything starts looking like an expense and you start going for short term gains to help prop up the PNL and...
• 5:54
  and all that, or you acquire a competitor, or you run discounts, or you lay off people, and none of those, all those things may help in the short term, but in six months you're
• 6:05
  usually worse off than, and that's a problem, that customer experience is not a short term ROI.
• 6:12
  If you train your employees today or you don't, you hire good employees,
• 6:17
  based on their service aptitude or you don't, none of that's gonna change this week's, maybe even this month's sales.
• 6:25
  But if you do all the other things I said, buy a competitor, slash prices, layoff, those will have a meaningful impact today.
• 6:36
  But in six months, if you do the right things, now it starts becoming a freight train and you got,
• 6:42
  you know, engaged workforce that are doing, you know, the right things versus, you know, having, you know, more problems when you do the artificial actions.
• 6:54
  You know, we talk often about silos and, you know, things getting missed between departments.
• 7:00
  And departments can protect their own numbers too, right?
• 7:04
  So I think there's customer experiences, gaps between departments.
• 7:09
  Is that something that you encounter?
• 7:12
  Yeah, and I don't think any of this is the employees' fault.
• 7:15
  I think this is all leadership and the silos happen.
• 7:19
  Again, as we were talking about, if an employee, let's take The DiJulius Group for example.
• 7:25
  The DiJulius Group, most of our consultants have never worked in corporate America.
• 7:30
  They certainly haven't owned their own business.
• 7:33
  But that's who their customer is.
• 7:35
  executives of corporate America or entrepreneurs.
• 7:38
  And again, we have great consultants, but we have to teach them what it's like to be, what's on their plate, what they're looking for their client.
• 7:46
  Now you go to different departments, back in the house, front of the house, support, all the many different things.
• 7:54
  If they've only worked in that department, have never worked in a customer facing position, sales, operations, know, all those things, they have no idea what it's like to
• 8:04
  be them.
• 8:05
  So goes back to the day in the life of a coworker and they have to spend some time in those departments to realize, my gosh, I didn't realize when I don't get back to you right
• 8:17
  away or don't get back to you with the exact information you need.
• 8:22
  that can blow up on you and you can lose the deal.
• 8:25
  That's why a client doesn't resign and vice versa.
• 8:29
  The customer facing employees have to understand what the back of the house is dealing with and that they're not just sitting around hoping that they get a request from someone.
• 8:39
  They're getting a request from everyone and they have to be realistic and appreciative of the work they're doing, but they have to understand it.
• 8:46
  both sides.
• 8:48
  We did a podcast last week on incentives and you know, are you measuring the right things for your customer experience?
• 8:56
  Are you incentivizing the right things?
• 8:57
  There are a lot of leaders out there that I'm sure are disregarding some of this right now thinking our scores are good.
• 9:04
  You know, we are they measuring the right thing though?
• 9:07
  What are some signs that a company could be living in a customer experience delusion?
• 9:14
  Yeah, that you're still doing customer surveys and tracking NPS.
• 9:20
  I I think that's so archaic.
• 9:21
  You know, we all have survey fatigue, literally.
• 9:24
  As I was waiting for you to get on, you know, to join me on the podcast, I was cleaning up my inbox and Dix had a survey and Delta had a survey and Hilton had a survey.
• 9:35
  It's like, my God, like, you know.
• 9:38
  you have to be really mad or really bored to fill out surveys.
• 9:43
  And so they're just not indicative.
• 9:45
  Back in the day when they were fresh and not everyone was doing them, a really good survey response rate was in the 30s.
• 9:52
  And that's a third of your customers, right?
• 9:54
  That's fair.
• 9:55
  Now it could be single digits.
• 9:58
  That's not a fair assessment of what your customer's really feeling like.
• 10:02
  So, you know, looking at the wrong metrics is everything.
• 10:06
  mean, you it'd be like, you you drive in your car and you're, I don't know, looking at your radio station, you know, and not paying attention to the critical dashboard of how
• 10:17
  fast you're going, how much gas you have, how much oil you have.
• 10:20
  They're just not looking at the right metrics or the ones that are.
• 10:26
  Well, and I wonder too in the world of AI, how many are actually themselves listening to complaints, following things that closely?
• 10:35
  I mean, lot of frontline employees might know the problem here, but how many leaders are that close to it?
• 10:41
  Well, one of the best things AI has provided is customer sentiment.
• 10:45
  So you almost can bypass surveys today.
• 10:49
  And, you know, AI can give you a report on what was the most common issues people brought up on the phones or in emails or chat that is more accurate than any survey will ever give
• 11:01
  you.
• 11:02
  you know, customer sentiment is so important.
• 11:05
  Plus,
• 11:06
  Are you talking to your employees?
• 11:08
  Let them help, let them be, wanna give.
• 11:11
  Cause it's like, I was talking to someone yesterday, but I could call and say, listen, I tried to do this online, but the link isn't working, blah, blah, blah.
• 11:20
  And you're like, okay, and you can help me.
• 11:22
  But does anyone ever go and fix that link?
• 11:25
  It's really not your job as a customer service rep.
• 11:28
  So you're just, you're doing your job and you're getting my answer and I need to know how to change my password or whatever it is, transfer funds.
• 11:37
  But that didn't necessarily fix the service defect that is gonna cause 100 other customers to call in.
• 11:45
  And John when it comes to feedback, what's the difference between collecting customer feedback and having real customer intelligence?
• 11:53
  Well, the way we define customer intelligence is who are you?
• 11:58
  know, demographics, you know, what have you purchased in the last, you know, several months with us?
• 12:05
  Ford, family, occupation, recreation and dreams.
• 12:08
  That's, you know, how often you use this, kind of an avatar of what type of customer you are.
• 12:15
  Are you a regular?
• 12:16
  Are you a VIP?
• 12:17
  Are you a new customer?
• 12:19
  Are you someone who can't...
• 12:22
  who doesn't use us normally, it's a once in a while experience.
• 12:27
  That's all customer intelligence where customer feedback is completely different.
• 12:32
  Now based on that you're a platinum customer, you have different wants and needs and pain points.
• 12:41
  than you do with a customer that's just trying us once a year or the first time.
• 12:45
  So we need to, you know, that's why it's really important to have the different customer avatars and you name them and you train your employees on what, not all customers are
• 12:55
  equal.
• 12:56
  Not all customers' are the same.
• 12:58
  Now all customers' expectations are the same.
• 13:02
  So, you know, you need to understand the different nuances of your different customer avatars.
• 13:07
  And then,
• 13:08
  Feedback is a completely different thing.
• 13:10
  It's how they're feeling about the experience you're driving.
• 13:14
  And so much of it has to do with ease of doing business.
• 13:18
  it's just, you're making this so complicated.
• 13:20
  It's so frustrating.
• 13:22
  I have a third party, what do call them?
• 13:24
  Pharmacy?
• 13:25
  It's not called third party.
• 13:26
  Is it called third party?
• 13:27
  where you order it and it comes to you.
• 13:29
  I'm forgetting.
• 13:30
  And I hate doing business with them.
• 13:32
  Because I have to call, I give them my information.
• 13:35
  They ask me if there's anything.
• 13:37
  I say, everything's the same.
• 13:38
  The address, the credit card.
• 13:40
  I don't need any additional supplies with it.
• 13:43
  Do you guys have to call me in two days to confirm this?
• 13:45
  No, I'll write it down and then.
• 13:47
  two days they call me and it's the same thing.
• 13:51
  And I just never get it within a week.
• 13:53
  There's always something wrong.
• 13:55
  And I just, I'm trying to get my doctor to use a different pharmacy.
• 13:59
  It's just, so difficult to do business with.
• 14:01
  And I know I have to order it two weeks in advance before I'm out versus two days, which we normally, I think we're default to do that.
• 14:11
  So ease of doing business, they just make it so complicated.
• 14:14
  Speaking about feedback, feedback is something that a lot of companies want, but often fail to act on it.
• 14:21
  Why is that?
• 14:22
  It's hard, is it accurate?
• 14:23
  Is it a one-off?
• 14:27
  And then you gotta take it to the front line.
• 14:29
  And feedback from the front line, I've said this earlier, is so important, making them feel like you truly want to hear their feedback.
• 14:39
  And then when they see action taken on, then they get really psyched because they know that that's their fingerprint.
• 14:45
  So, I don't know, I just think feedback is just a lost art today.
• 14:51
  I don't trust it.
• 14:52
  It's just a small percentage.
• 14:53
  It's so inaccurate.
• 14:55
  Listen, if you're getting feedback, you're probably getting negative feedback.
• 14:57
  So it might be good.
• 14:58
  You're only hearing from the negative, but it's making sure that you have that team.
• 15:06
  in place and create a system to reduce that from happening again and then follow up and making sure it happens.
• 15:11
  But there's a lot of parts to that that you gotta make sure are, you know, it can't just start at the top.
• 15:18
  And the why, the why is so important.
• 15:21
  I really like what you said about how psyched they get when you do something about that.
• 15:25
  I think it's so true because an employee can have great feedback to give the employer, but if it's not acted upon, you stop giving it.
• 15:33
  It's like, why should I bother telling you you're not going to do anything about it anyway?
• 15:37
  Yeah, we always say when you're doing employee engagement surveys, know, that's the second, the second worst thing you could do is, is not do them.
• 15:45
  The worst thing you do is do them and not do anything about it.
• 15:48
  Right.
• 15:48
  And it could be something as simple as the vending machine in the cafeteria doesn't work or the hot water in the woman's restroom, you know, doesn't work.
• 15:57
  And you said that the last quarter and
• 16:00
  we never fixed it, and now why are you even gonna fill it out?
• 16:04
  But now you take it to the experience, and hey listen, we're getting a lot of complaints on X, and we don't do anything about it, you still keep on getting a lot of complaints on
• 16:15
  X.
• 16:15
  That's not a fun part of your job.
• 16:17
  Versus X is fixed.
• 16:19
  And then that's why also, above and beyond, creating above and beyond culture is so cool, because...
• 16:24
  Again, you could come up with a great above and beyond, or you can execute a great above and beyond if we're celebrating it, and everyone's talking about it, and that was you.
• 16:34
  Now you're looking for the next moment to do an above and beyond versus no one recognized you, no one said anything.
• 16:40
  Maybe someone questioned why you would do that, because that was against policy or it was expensive or whatever it may be, which could happen.
• 16:51
  So you brought up being hard to do business with, but not wanting to fill out a survey.
• 16:56
  Instead you're going to talk to your doctor, can you use a different pharmacy?
• 17:01
  But obviously they need help.
• 17:02
  What is it that leaders can do, say leaders in that pharmaceutical situation can do to stay close to the customer that might not involve asking you to fill out a survey?
• 17:14
  Yeah, again, it goes back to, I think, the AI sentiment.
• 17:18
  I think that can give you a great report, customer sentiment, on the top things customers are bringing up, good and bad.
• 17:26
  That's real.
• 17:27
  That's 100 % of your customers.
• 17:29
  That's not the few that are bored or mad that are only feeling...
• 17:35
  AI sentiment, if you have it, it's listening.
• 17:39
  can give it to you.
• 17:40
  And then asking, I think doing focus groups with your contact center is so important because they're hearing it all.
• 17:48
  But again, they're so operationally focused, which is a bad thing.
• 17:52
  And that's not their fault.
• 17:53
  That comes from leadership that they're ducking and bobbing and weaving from customers, giving them frustration about.
• 18:00
  I tried to do this online and it wouldn't work or this is the third time, and they're just trying to put out the fire and they're not necessarily writing down or documenting
• 18:11
  anything of those things.
• 18:13
  So again, when you have meetings with customer-facing employees on what they're hearing, what is the frustration?
• 18:20
  It might be that, and maybe they don't know this, it might be that, you know,
• 18:25
  Customers are constantly asking for this and we don't have it.
• 18:28
  You wouldn't know that, right?
• 18:31
  Unless you're speaking directly to your customer service reps, your contact center or customer sentiment.
• 18:41
  Yeah, I think if we're not exposed to the customer's pain, we often underestimate what it is, what they're going through.
• 18:48
  I have a friend who works for a company that started doing the GLP-1 mail order, microdosing type of thing.
• 18:57
  And as a product manager,
• 18:59
  product manager within the organization, they mailed it to themselves and a couple other people on the executive team to experience, all right, this is what it's be like when it
• 19:10
  comes in the mail, this is what, you So, because when they tested in-house, this is great, this is great, and, you know, we're ready to go.
• 19:17
  But then after they did that, you know, between them, they found 15 different things that they wanted to change before it went out.
• 19:23
  Yeah, I love that.
• 19:24
  I love that you're making me think we should do that to ourselves with our orders.
• 19:28
  Who knows what it looks like when it gets there and the packaging and all that, the presentation of it versus, you don't know what you don't know.
• 19:41
  Exactly.
• 19:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 19:42
  mean, even something as simple as shipping a book, if it's not packaged properly, people don't want, you know, dented books.
• 19:50
  Yeah.
• 19:50
  I mean, you know, there's times where I try to avoid it and it's so bad, right?
• 19:56
  It's like, I don't want to call my call center.
• 19:58
  I don't think I want to call any call center, but yeah, there might be some subconscious thing I'm afraid to.
• 20:04
  Be your own customer.
• 20:07
  All right, how can a company tell when they've started implementing some kind of customer experience strategy that it is actually working?
• 20:17
  Well, again, you know, it's about building a pond.
• 20:21
  One thing isn't going to fix it.
• 20:23
  But yeah, I mean, you your KPIs, your return on experience dashboard that you're getting, you know, more clients more often spending more, referring more.
• 20:34
  And, you know, all those key indicators are going up and tracking it and that there's a pulse in your
• 20:42
  workforce.
• 20:42
  When you deal with any excellent customer experience company, there's an energy, there's a vibe.
• 20:50
  It starts with the employees, it starts internally, right?
• 20:53
  And they have to experience it.
• 20:55
  They have to, know, EX equals CX.
• 20:58
  What the employees experience, the customer will experience.
• 21:00
  The leaders are doing it internally.
• 21:02
  The leaders are high-fiving.
• 21:04
  their employees for the smallest of things that you're moving the needle.
• 21:10
  So it's starting with a steering committee, a task force that represents not just customer facing position, but like we said, the support positions, all the different positions that
• 21:23
  is the voice of that department and...
• 21:26
  is the ambassador of that department that's bringing it back, telling them why this is gonna make their job easier, why it's in the best interest of the customer, which is in
• 21:36
  the best interest of the company.
• 21:39
  So yeah, these little things.
• 21:41
  It's not gonna be, initially at least, it's not gonna be overnight unbelievable.
• 21:46
  It's a crawl, walk and run.
• 21:48
  But once you get that...
• 21:50
  that train moving, it starts moving and there's nothing better than that.
• 21:54
  All right, revolutionaries, if this conversation is making you wonder whether your organization is seeing the same experience your customers are feeling, the DiJulius Group
• 22:03
  can help.
• 22:04
  Our consulting team helps companies uncover the real customer experience, identify friction points that are costing loyalty, and build systems, standards, and training
• 22:14
  needed to create consistency at scale.
• 22:17
  visit thedjuliusgroup.com to learn about our consulting services, keynote programs, and the Customer Experience Executive Academy.
• 22:25
  Or if you're ready to schedule a strategy call, we do them for free, just go to tdg.clickforwardslashcall to set that up.
• 22:35
  All right, back to the questions here.
• 22:37
  John, what's the danger of leaders only relying on survey scores?
• 22:43
  it's not a true depiction of your client base.
• 22:48
  If you're in double digits, unfortunately, that's a good response rate, but it's not accurate enough.
• 22:54
  The low double digits, yeah.
• 22:57
  And it also is based on what questions are you asking.
• 22:59
  You know, I might be just giving you a score of one to five or one to 10, and I give you a six, a seven, a three, depending on the type.
• 23:08
  But am I filling anything out?
• 23:10
  Am I saying why?
• 23:12
  You how easy are we to do business with a two?
• 23:14
  But maybe I'm not taking the time or you're not asking me to specify what that's, I have no idea what that two is representing in our.
• 23:24
  in our journey of the customer interaction.
• 23:27
  Yeah, and not every unhappy customer complains.
• 23:30
  know a lot of them just disappear.
• 23:32
  What should companies do this quarter to close the gap between perception and reality?
• 23:37
  If you could pick one thing.
• 23:39
  All right, pick more than one.
• 23:40
  Go ahead.
• 23:41
  roll up their sleeves, get into it, speak to the customers themselves, reach out to your VIPs, ask them what's the best thing they've experienced and what's the biggest area of
• 23:53
  opportunity could make them become the brand customers can't live without.
• 23:58
  The Ritz-Carlton asks, I think a cool question on their surveys.
• 24:03
  They ask, or they used to, I don't know if they still do.
• 24:06
  Can you imagine a world without the Ritz-Carlton?
• 24:09
  That's kind of a, you know, to me a ballsy question, you know, and maybe your baseline is only going to be single digits that people would actually say, no, I can't imagine a world
• 24:19
  without the Ritz-Carlton.
• 24:20
  But if you can get that, you know, single digits up to 10, you know, 15, you know, you're moving, know, all you need is a baseline.
• 24:27
  But, create a task force, create, have a champion, it can't be the entrepreneur's CEO, create a champion of customer experience, and then a task force that they work with from
• 24:39
  each team, each department.
• 24:41
  And then follow a methodology.
• 24:44
  follow through.
• 24:45
  Follow through.
• 24:47
  John, this is a great reminder that customer experience can't be judged from the conference room alone.
• 24:52
  If customers are not feeling the improvement, then the work isn't finished.
• 24:57
  For every leader listening, the challenge is simple.
• 24:59
  Don't just ask, are we working on customer experience?
• 25:03
  ask would our customers say it is actually better.
• 25:06
  That's where the real work begins.
• 25:08
  Thanks for listening to the customer service revolution.
• 25:11
  If this episode made you rethink how close your company really is to the customer, share it with a leader on your team.
• 25:17
  We'll see you next time.
• 25:18
  Thanks, John.
• 25:19
  Thank you.