Latest / The Game Business Show / Netflix games strategy evokes the spirit of Nintendo Wii

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Netflix games strategy evokes the spirit of Nintendo Wii · The Game Business Show

0:03
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: It's our fourth episode this week.
0:07
We won't normally be doing four episodes in a week,
0:11
but this is our daily week.
0:12
This is our first week on the show and it's been quite a week,
0:14
I have to say.
0:15
We launched on Monday with our announcement where we got people
0:19
to sign up and then
0:20
SPEAKER_00: on the Tuesday we put out our first show.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: If you listen to that, please do.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really good show.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: My guest host was Stephen Tortilla.
0:26
And the big focus was on GTA 6 and the impact that's going to
0:29
have on the market.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: We also talked about GDC.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: We talked about Assassin's Creed sales.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: We talked about Trump tariffs.
0:34
We talked about the Entertainment Software's Association's
0:37
Accessible Games Initiative,
0:39
SPEAKER_00: with Ubisoft made a guest appearance on that show.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: So that was...
0:43
SPEAKER_00: That was on Tuesday.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Immediately after that, we did an interview with Mike Morhaime.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Mike Morhaime is the co-founder of Blizzard, if you don't know who he is.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: He set up a new publisher in 2020 called Dreamhaven.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: They announced a couple of games this week.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: One was the big game they announced was Wildgate.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: Wildgate gave me CFE's vibes.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: I've had people come to me and say,
1:00
SPEAKER_00: It's nothing like CFE's.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: It does.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: It feels like CFE's to me.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Crew-based game.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: CFE's in space, anyway.
1:07
Crew-based games,
1:07
lots of destroying each other's ships and hunting for treasure.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's not exactly the same, but it has a vibe to it to me.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: That was quite cool.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: But they also announced a game called Mechabellum.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: I say announced.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: The game's already been out.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: But Dream Heavy had picked up the publishing rights.
1:22
And what I thought was great about that story,
1:24
really fascinating about that story,
1:25
SPEAKER_00: is the Starcraft community.
1:27
So Mike Moreham's previous community from Blizzard is the one
1:30
that introduced them to that game.
1:31
You can read about that story or you can listen to it or watch
1:34
it on our YouTube
1:34
SPEAKER_00: channel right now.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: We then took a little bit of a pause on Wednesday.
1:39
Before Thursday,
1:40
we ran our big in-depth look at the state of game investment.
1:44
SPEAKER_00: We interviewed seven different game investors,
1:46
SPEAKER_00: early stage investors,
1:47
SPEAKER_00: VCs,
1:47
SPEAKER_00: all different types of companies.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
1:51
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't as bleak as I thought.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't super positive.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't overwhelmingly positive.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: But...
1:58
SPEAKER_00: It was also not very, wasn't bleak either.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: I really need to give a listen.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: I think there's a lot of optimism in there,
2:02
SPEAKER_00: a little bit of hope about where the market's heading.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: That was yesterday.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: And here we are with the fourth show.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's me on my own today.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: I say on my own.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: I am.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: My producer Richard is also here.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: He's welcome to chime in.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: And today we're going to talk about Netflix games.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: I interviewed the president of Netflix games called LA in Tuscan.
2:22
But before I get to that,
2:23
what I wasn't expecting this week was such a busy news week.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: So in the media,
2:29
SPEAKER_00: we had some smaller stories on the media side,
2:31
SPEAKER_00: as well as the launch of the game business,
2:32
SPEAKER_00: which obviously is the biggest story.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Game Informer returned.
2:37
on Tuesday with the full team that disappeared towards the end
2:40
of last year when it was closed.
2:42
They have a new investor,
2:45
a new company is behind it,
2:47
it has backed it,
2:48
it's still independent.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: When I first heard about the Game Informer coming back,
2:51
SPEAKER_00: when I heard it was the full team,
2:52
SPEAKER_00: which is what I heard at GDC,
2:55
SPEAKER_00: My initial reaction was, well, that's going to be expensive.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And it is obviously going to be expensive.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: It's a big team, lots of costs on that team.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: But reading through what they're planning,
3:05
it seems like they've fought very hard about monetizing outside
3:08
of just pure advertising.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: I think that's interesting.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: And obviously,
3:11
it's great news to have anything in the media where things are
3:14
being added and not
3:15
SPEAKER_00: taken away.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: So great that Game Informer came back as a positive news story.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: We then had a surprise thing happen yesterday.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: well,
3:23
SPEAKER_00: two surprises,
3:24
SPEAKER_00: one was bigger than the other,
3:25
SPEAKER_00: but this one was a surprise to me,
3:26
SPEAKER_00: was Nintendo announced a Direct,
3:29
SPEAKER_00: and actually debuted a Direct,
3:31
SPEAKER_00: a Switch 1 Direct.
3:32
This is surprising because in less than a week,
3:34
we will have the Switch 2 Nintendo Direct.
3:38
SPEAKER_00: Now,
3:39
SPEAKER_00: the Switch 1 Direct,
3:42
SPEAKER_00: the reason why it's important Nintendo do these Directs for Switch 1,
3:46
because this is one of the key challenges they're going to have
3:49
with Switch 2.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: They have 129 million people who played Nintendo Switch in the 12 months,
3:55
SPEAKER_00: the end of December 2024.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Now,
3:58
Nintendo's the only company I seem to know that actually does
4:00
annual users rather
4:00
SPEAKER_00: than monthly active users or daily active users.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: But 129 million is a lot, million people is a lot.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: And I suspect...
4:08
SPEAKER_00: For Nintendo,
4:08
this is by far the most engaged audience they've had moving
4:11
from one generation to
4:12
SPEAKER_00: the other.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we don't have the data that goes far back.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the DS had a good engaged audience going to the 3DS.
4:18
But Nintendo often sees its audience fade away towards the end
4:20
of a generation.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: This isn't the case this time.
4:22
They have more active users,
4:24
annual active users,
4:26
now than they had the year before.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: So this is obviously a really big deal for Nintendo.
4:31
They need to keep those Switch 1 users engaged because while
4:35
they wait to upgrade
4:36
SPEAKER_00: them to Switch 2.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: And the best way to do that is with games.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Now,
4:39
SPEAKER_00: the two big first-party games,
4:41
first-party-ish games that Nintendo are releasing on Switch 1
4:45
still is Metroid
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Prime Beyond,
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Metroid Prime 4,
4:50
SPEAKER_00: which Metroid's not the biggest franchise for Nintendo.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: It's obviously well-loved by fans.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: It's a big AAA project.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's got a lot of potential, Metroid.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: I think it should be doing more than it is.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: That's obviously a big one for Nintendo still to come.
5:02
SPEAKER_00: They've also got a brand new Pokemon game, Pokemon ZA.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Now,
5:05
SPEAKER_00: people point out that if you look at the transition to DS to 3DS,
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Nintendo also had a Metroid game that launched on the 3DS to Switch.
5:13
Nintendo also had a 3DS Switch game and a 3DS Metroid game,
5:18
a 3DS Pokemon game as well.
5:21
But those post games were more either one was a remake and one
5:24
was a sort of a
5:25
SPEAKER_00: follow up to the previous year's game.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: We're talking a full new Pokémon game, a full new Metro game.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: They also announced a new Tomodachi Life title.
5:35
And if you don't remember Tomodachi Life,
5:36
don't blame you,
5:37
it was quite long ago.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: It was 10 years ago now.
5:39
SPEAKER_00: The last Tomodachi Life,
5:40
SPEAKER_00: which was sort of like Animal Crossing,
5:42
SPEAKER_00: but not quite,
5:43
SPEAKER_00: game,
5:44
SPEAKER_00: acted really well on the 3DS.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: It sold around 7 million units.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think it was the 11th best-selling game on 3DS.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: In fact, it was.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: So it's a potentially big thing.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: Now,
5:54
it's important Nintendo keep releasing games on the Switch to
5:57
keep that audience
5:57
SPEAKER_00: engaged while they upgrade them to Switch 2.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: But this is the balance.
6:00
SPEAKER_00: This is the challenge.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: If they put too much onto the Switch 1,
6:03
SPEAKER_00: if they keep doing that cross-gen approach,
6:06
SPEAKER_00: they may see a slower move to Switch 2.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: If they put all their games on Switch 2,
6:11
SPEAKER_00: they might end up losing a load of audience who have just noticed,
6:14
SPEAKER_00: well,
6:14
SPEAKER_00: there's no games for me on Switch 1.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go elsewhere.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: So there is a balance need to strike.
6:18
We'll talk more about this next week when they reveal the
6:20
Switch 2 and we'll see
6:21
SPEAKER_00: what Nintendo's approach will be.
6:23
The other big thing that happened yesterday was that Ubisoft
6:26
has announced they are
6:28
SPEAKER_00: forming a new subsidiary with Tencent.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: That subsidiary is going to feature their three biggest mega franchises,
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Assassin's Creed,
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Rainbow Six and Far Cry.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: Tencent is investing 1.16 billion euros into it.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: It values that subsidy at about 4 billion euros.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: Ubisoft is still the primary owner of it, but Tencent has a 25% stake.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: Ubisoft, they did that money and they did that injection.
6:56
And it's clear that Tencent really didn't want to inject the
6:58
money into the full Ubisoft,
6:59
SPEAKER_00: which is around 17,000 employees.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: It's a huge, huge organization with lots of cost attached to it.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: But they do want to invest in those super franchises that are worth,
7:09
SPEAKER_00: potentially worth billions and billions and billions.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: And Saturn's Creed and Far Cry and Rainbow Six.
7:16
This is,
7:17
on the one side,
7:18
it's good news,
7:18
and it's exactly what Ubisoft needs to do.
7:20
Those franchises,
7:21
Assassin's Creed,
7:22
Empire,
7:23
Cry,
7:23
and Remember 6,
7:23
they need that kind of money.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: They're big development projects.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: They're incredibly massive franchises.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: They're worth the money, basically.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: Some of Ubisoft's other games, Ghost Recon, The Division, Just Dance,
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Rayman.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Those games are Prince of Persia, those sort of games.
7:41
Those games,
7:41
some of them are profitable,
7:43
but they're on the smaller scale.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: They're on the smaller end.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: The margins aren't so great on them,
7:47
SPEAKER_00: particularly when you look at how much Ubisoft spends on this stuff.
7:50
Ubisoft has spoken about needing to become more agile listening
7:53
to the players.
7:54
Behind the scenes,
7:54
they're talking about trying to be more focused on their games.
7:57
Not every game they make now needs to be a 100-hour open-world
8:00
epic that has
8:01
SPEAKER_00: driving in it and stealth in it and action in it.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: They can just make a really good stealth action splinter cell.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: They can just make a really good Prince of Persia platform.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: They really can just go all in on a...
8:14
on something like Ghost Recon or Just Not,
8:15
they can really fully focus on something.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: And for them,
8:18
SPEAKER_00: that might...
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Because in this market,
8:20
SPEAKER_00: if you do something like that,
8:21
SPEAKER_00: you are focused.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: Look at Space Marine 2 last year, even look at Resident Evil generally.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: If you can do something that's fully focused,
8:26
SPEAKER_00: that caters to an audience and does an extremely good job of it,
8:28
SPEAKER_00: you have the chance to break out beyond that audience.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: That's something that Ubisoft is talking about behind the scenes,
8:34
SPEAKER_00: and that's something that its core business now can focus on doing.
8:38
The result of this is almost inevitably going to be quite a
8:40
large number of layoffs,
8:41
SPEAKER_00: or at least some layoffs.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: It's a very big organization.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: Costs are going up.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: If they're going to start making games quicker with smaller teams,
8:47
SPEAKER_00: which probably is the better,
8:49
SPEAKER_00: is the ideal approach for them,
8:50
SPEAKER_00: they're going to have to start losing some of that staff.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully they can protect as many people as they can.
8:55
Hopefully if there's areas of the business that they're not too
8:57
sure about,
8:57
SPEAKER_00: they can sell off and find new owners for.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: So on the one hand, it feels positive.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: It's ultimately...
9:02
what Ubisoft needs to do in order to become a more sustainable
9:05
games company.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand,
9:07
I suspect there's going to be a lot of negative headlines to
9:09
come in terms of cuts there.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: I hope for the best of the team there because they're a wonderful team.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: But that was a big story that broke.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: Yesterday.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: And that was it.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: There was also another small story yesterday from PlayStation.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: It really picked up very much,
9:27
SPEAKER_00: but it shouldn't be done because Phil Rosenberg,
9:30
he's a senior vice president of global partner development and
9:33
relations at Sony,
9:34
SPEAKER_00: has stepped down after 20 years.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: He's a bit of a...
9:37
He's been a mainstay of that business now for pretty much every
9:40
console launch that
9:41
SPEAKER_00: PlayStation's ever done.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: And he's a very familiar face in the market.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: And good luck, Phil, with whatever's next, if there is anything.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: Now, on to our main subject.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: Now,
9:54
SPEAKER_00: normally during this bit,
9:55
it would be an interview and I'd introduce the guest and we'd
9:57
have a lovely little
9:57
SPEAKER_00: chat and talk about those things.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: We did the interview, but there was no video.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: There was no audio.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to try and recount it to you.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: So I apologise if you just want to read it.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: You can go on thegamebusiness.com if you've got it in the newsletter.
10:09
If you're listening to this above the article,
10:12
you can just read the article.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: That's what you prefer.
10:14
But if you're somebody who's going for a little walk and want
10:15
to listen to it,
10:16
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you a little bit about this episode.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: So I interviewed Alain Descan, who is the president of games at Netflix.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And Alain is probably best known if you look at his CVs.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: He spent just under six years at Epic Games,
10:33
SPEAKER_00: where he led the development,
10:35
SPEAKER_00: first party development there.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: And the games he worked on was,
10:38
SPEAKER_00: of course,
10:38
SPEAKER_00: Fortnite being the biggest,
10:39
SPEAKER_00: but also Rocket League,
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Fall Guys,
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Lego Fortnite.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: You don't get much bigger than that.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: So when people are talking about his,
10:45
SPEAKER_00: when people announced him,
10:46
SPEAKER_00: naturally it was all about the Fortnite guys,
10:48
SPEAKER_00: epic guys come to Netflix to revolutionize its game strategy.
10:53
Netflix was at GDC last week and they put on an event on the
10:56
side of GDC where they
10:57
SPEAKER_00: told us about that game strategy.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: And when I heard it, I have to say I got a different vibe.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: I didn't get a Fortnite vibe.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Now, there are four areas of which Netflix is focusing on.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: And the first two are something you might expect.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: So they're focusing on narrative games,
11:13
SPEAKER_00: sort of transmedia projects as well,
11:15
SPEAKER_00: which makes sense considering the medium.
11:17
SPEAKER_00: And they're also going to push their big mainstream IP,
11:21
SPEAKER_00: including IP they partner with,
11:22
SPEAKER_00: like WWE and Squid Game,
11:25
SPEAKER_00: and even Grand Theft Auto,
11:26
SPEAKER_00: which obviously has been a big,
11:27
SPEAKER_00: big hit on Netflix,
11:29
SPEAKER_00: the Grand Theft Auto series.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: Remastered done very, very well on that platform.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: And we'll come back to that stuff in a little bit.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: But the other two bits is stuff that made me think of something else.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: So the two areas were,
11:40
SPEAKER_00: these other two areas were around Netflix is wanting to become a trusted
11:45
SPEAKER_00: destination for kids and families.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: So they wanted to be seen as like,
11:48
SPEAKER_00: if you wanna play games with your kids,
11:50
SPEAKER_00: this is the place to go.
11:51
The other place is they wanna utilize modern TVs where you use
11:56
your mobile phone as
11:57
SPEAKER_00: the controller.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: And in particular, they were talking about party games.
12:02
They were talking about ways that you can use your phone to
12:06
play party games,
12:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:07
SPEAKER_00: conjuring ideas of Jackbox games and that sort of stuff.
12:10
Tascan at GDC spoke about the need to eliminate friction with a
12:14
control interface
12:15
SPEAKER_00: that everyone is familiar with,
12:17
create games and experiences that can reach the broadest
12:19
possible audience,
12:19
SPEAKER_00: which on Netflix is estimated to be around 700 million people.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: All of it reminded me of something else.
12:27
SPEAKER_00: All of it reminded me of Nintendo Wii.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: And I met Mr.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Tascan,
12:32
SPEAKER_00: it felt like the Wii,
12:33
SPEAKER_00: the idea of an accessible controller interface,
12:37
SPEAKER_00: the idea of party games,
12:39
SPEAKER_00: the idea of being for kids and families.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: And I thought,
12:42
SPEAKER_00: I was worried he might take offense to that,
12:45
SPEAKER_00: but it turns out actually Tascan,
12:46
SPEAKER_00: if you go back into his history,
12:47
SPEAKER_00: go back before Fortnite,
12:48
SPEAKER_00: go back before Epic,
12:50
SPEAKER_00: he spent a good deal of time at EA,
12:51
SPEAKER_00: eight years,
12:52
where he worked across Wii games,
12:54
including Need for Speed,
12:55
Spore,
12:55
Skate and Boogie.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: And he said to me, I love the Wii.
12:59
And if you look at a lot of the games I worked on while at EA,
13:01
there was a lot of Wii.
13:03
His point was,
13:04
I'm very vigorous about lowering friction and eliminating it if
13:07
we can.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I see sometimes subscription is a friction as well.
13:11
And that's why they made the Squid Game mobile game they
13:13
released back in December.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: They released that for free.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: They didn't have to have a subscription to that game.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: They want to eliminate that friction.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: And so it gave me very much Wii vibes.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Party games are a part of this.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: So he points out that on every phone you have a gyroscope,
13:31
SPEAKER_00: you have a microphone,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: you have a speaker,
13:32
SPEAKER_00: you have a touchscreen.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: And if you give these sort of control interfaces to creative people,
13:37
SPEAKER_00: what can they do with those things?
13:39
And whether that's something you can play on your own or with
13:41
two people or 20 people,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: he asks,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: can we do something really engaging?
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:48
He thinks that,
13:50
you know,
13:50
ultimately you're trying to reach Netflix's broadest audience.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: They're not necessarily talking about core games here.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean they're not going to do those sorts of games,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: but for them,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: they want to make sure there's a way of reaching a broader audience.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: The thing that he keeps talking about is the importance of disruption.
14:06
I think one of the reasons why there's a lot of enthusiasm
14:09
around what Netflix is
14:09
SPEAKER_00: talking about is because the market is desperate for some disruption,
14:13
SPEAKER_00: some change that can generate revenue,
14:15
SPEAKER_00: generate money and growth for the games market.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: In fact,
14:19
SPEAKER_00: he said to me in my interview,
14:20
I'm wondering if people are being nice because we're a little
14:22
bit of blue sky
14:23
SPEAKER_00: during very grey weather.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Or is the vision really compelling?
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I kind of felt that it might be.
14:29
And he talked very much actively about the importance of that disruption.
14:33
He talks about the fact that people are demanding these days
14:34
and you need to do something new.
14:37
What the new thing is that Netflix is doing that will catch on,
14:40
he's not sure.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: It could be the transmedia concept.
14:45
It could be the idea of you do something in the game and it
14:47
affects what's going on
14:48
SPEAKER_00: in the TV show,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: possibly using AI technology to do that.
14:52
Or it could be vice versa,
14:53
something that's in the TV show impacting the game.
14:56
With the Squid Game,
14:56
for instance,
14:57
you watch the show,
14:57
you've got currency in the game.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: That's quite a rudimentary collaboration between the TV and the game.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: But we also saw Bandersnatch from Black Mirror
15:09
which um um which obviously was very interactive tv very much
15:13
blurred the lines
15:14
there so he thinks that might be something that catches on
15:16
transmedia is not new
15:18
we've had that sort of area for a while but obviously with
15:20
netflix's platform
15:21
there's a unique opportunity to perhaps make that work indeed
15:24
even the idea of
15:24
using the controller as uh using your phone as a controller
15:28
isn't particularly new
15:29
SPEAKER_00: new playstation launched play link um uh
15:33
a long time ago now,
15:34
which was a concept designed to make games a little bit more accessible.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: The Wii U tablet is effectively the idea.
15:40
Go back to the GameCube and you had the Game Boy Advance being
15:43
used as a controller.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: It's not completely new,
15:45
but obviously what's key here is Netflix's 700 million audience
15:49
and it's making
15:50
SPEAKER_00: sure that you're creating frictionless gameplay there.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: So all this stuff,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: again,
15:57
SPEAKER_00: it's not particularly new,
15:58
SPEAKER_00: but it's presented in a way on a platform that's new.
16:00
And Tascan can't be sure which one will prove to be disruptive
16:04
if he does think
16:04
SPEAKER_00: there was a bunch of unique cars that Netflix has to play.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that he did say on stage,
16:12
and I'm surprised this didn't get picked up more because it
16:14
sounds somewhat like
16:15
SPEAKER_00: he's questioning the future of the video game consoles.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: He said on stage,
16:20
SPEAKER_00: when it comes to console,
16:21
SPEAKER_00: we started to look at the future where the platform is agnostic.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: Look at the younger generation.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Are eight-year-olds and 10-year-olds dreaming of owning a PlayStation 6?
16:29
SPEAKER_00: I am not sure.
16:31
Basically,
16:32
young people want to interact with a digital screen,
16:35
wherever it is,
16:36
whatever it is.
16:37
And when you think about console and the sort of it's about
16:40
high definition screens,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: about high cost hardware using a controller,
16:44
SPEAKER_00: it doesn't quite have that level of ease and accessibility.
16:49
Young people demand from games and therefore the next
16:51
generation is going to demand some games.
16:53
However,
16:54
where I questioned this sort of,
16:56
not saying he was dismissing of consoles.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: In fact, he said he was a console fan.
16:59
But where I was a little bit questioning here was that whether
17:02
it's consoles or
17:03
SPEAKER_00: digital platforms like Steam,
17:05
SPEAKER_00: they're really great at engaging players.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: They're full of community features,
17:08
SPEAKER_00: their ability to connect with each other,
17:09
SPEAKER_00: to play games of each other,
17:11
SPEAKER_00: to show what you share with each other,
17:13
SPEAKER_00: to get achievements,
17:14
SPEAKER_00: create avatars.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: They're great.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: They're interactive, gamified platforms.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Netflix isn't that.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: Netflix is a place where you go in, you choose a TV show.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: I can't see what my friends are watching on Netflix.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: That's not how this works.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: So I asked Tascan,
17:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:29
SPEAKER_00: some of the investment that Netflix is making in video games,
17:33
SPEAKER_00: is this just games?
17:34
It's just the software or are they going to be looking at doing
17:37
things on the platform itself?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: And I have to say,
17:39
clearly he hadn't been asked that before and he was taken off
17:41
guard because he said
17:41
SPEAKER_00: it was a very good question.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: And it turns out they are very much actively looking into this.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: It's different, he says.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I might not want to know what you're watching.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: That's your thing.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: But when you talk about games and want to do something interactive,
17:54
SPEAKER_00: that might be an opportunity to share some things or to communicate.
17:58
You want to be very thoughtful about the platform and why
18:01
people are coming on there.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: And then if it's for something that's a bit more of a game,
18:06
maybe there will be an opportunity to do things with other
18:08
members of the audience.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: That's that connectivity thing.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: He actually said,
18:11
come back to me in a year where hopefully they can show some of
18:13
the things that
18:13
SPEAKER_00: we're talking about.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, it comes down to
18:18
SPEAKER_00: Is it fun?
18:19
SPEAKER_00: Is it adding value and engagement to the platform,
18:21
SPEAKER_00: which is an important thing for Netflix games?
18:25
SPEAKER_00: So we'll see.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: That sounds quite exciting.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: The possibility, maybe I can get an achievement for watching Friends.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
18:32
SPEAKER_00: Now, look, we've been here before.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: I've been here many times before.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: I think Disney,
18:36
SPEAKER_00: BBC,
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Paramount,
18:37
SPEAKER_00: Fox,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: Universal,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: that's at the top of my head,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: have all moved into games,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: some of them really ambitiously.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: They've bought studios,
18:45
SPEAKER_00: they've acquired IP,
18:47
SPEAKER_00: and then moved out of games again or changed their strategy drastically.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: Ultimately,
18:54
SPEAKER_00: video games for these companies are often,
18:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say a rounding error,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: but they are a small part of their business.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And when they find out how hard it is,
19:01
SPEAKER_00: how challenging it is to be successful,
19:05
SPEAKER_00: they end up backing away and going back to focusing on what they do,
19:08
SPEAKER_00: which is making TV and movies.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: So I asked Tascam why he feels that Netflix might be different.
19:12
What's going to stop Netflix getting bored in a couple of years
19:14
time if they don't
19:15
SPEAKER_00: see some immediate success?
19:17
SPEAKER_00: And he acknowledged this question.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: In fact, he had a very prepared answer to it.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: So it's something that clearly he's been challenged on before.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: But he believes in Netflix leadership because they are used to,
19:28
SPEAKER_00: as he puts it,
19:29
SPEAKER_00: they're used to being stubborn.
19:30
They're used to making investment and they're used to
19:32
acknowledging that it takes time.
19:34
He gives an example of the two CEOs of Netflix,
19:37
Ted Sandros and Greg Peters.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: Ted's been at Netflix 25 years.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Greg has been at Netflix for 15 years.
19:45
Look at where Netflix was 10 years ago in terms of their core business,
19:48
says Alan.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: They know the path of being stubborn,
19:50
SPEAKER_00: hardworking,
19:51
SPEAKER_00: innovating,
19:51
SPEAKER_00: having a vision and going after it.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: The road is not always straight to the top.
19:55
I believed them when they told me that gaming was important
19:57
because if Netflix
19:58
SPEAKER_00: wants to entertain the world,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: there's no way around it.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: They need to be in games.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: When I look at these two leaders in particular,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: but also the rest of them,
20:05
SPEAKER_00: I believe in their full commitment.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
20:08
SPEAKER_00: They're younger people, used to the modern market.
20:11
They're not Disney or BBC who have been going for,
20:15
in some cases,
20:16
hundreds of years.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: They are very actively, they know the journey that needs to go on.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: That's his belief in it.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Now,
20:28
SPEAKER_00: I got a bit more clarity around Netflix's vision.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: We've got an idea now what they're trying to do.
20:32
They're trying to create transmedia projects,
20:34
narrative projects,
20:35
party games.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: It has a wee vibe to it, but with some differences on there.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: But he keeps coming back to it.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know which of these is going to work.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't know what's going to resonate the most.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: And he keeps saying that ultimately the proof is in the delivery.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: It sounds exciting.
20:48
SPEAKER_00: It sounds promising.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: Tentially unlocks loads of players for the games industry.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, there's no knowing what will work.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And it all comes down to the execution.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: But there's no disguising he was excited.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: Netflix is, after all, the biggest entertainment platform in the world.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: And if Tascan and his team make games a serious part of it,
21:07
SPEAKER_00: that may prove to be a boon for the entire games industry.
21:10
We ended our chat and he said,
21:11
sometimes I use the phrase that we need to find our voice.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: We have all these things to think about and the audience we can reach.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: How are we using all the elements to do new things?
21:19
We have the IP,
21:20
we have the transmedia element of it,
21:21
the Netflix muscle we can flex.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: I must confess, it's a really exciting place to be.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: I have to say,
21:27
it's really interesting to see Netflix really pushing in this
21:30
area and being open
21:31
about their plans and doing something that isn't just trying to
21:34
be a new Xbox and
21:35
SPEAKER_00: try and be a new PlayStation.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: In fact, perhaps the market really could do with a new Nintendo Wii.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: So that was my chat with Netflix.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: You can read the interview and the analysis on thegamebusiness.com.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: right now.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: We will be back next week,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: possibly not with four shows,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: but we have an interview with the CEO of Arrowhead,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: the makers of Helldivers 2.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: We've got that going out on Tuesday.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: And then also next week is the reveal of the Nintendo Switch 2,
22:01
SPEAKER_00: which I am extremely excited about.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: We're going to have a special show on the Thursday,
22:06
SPEAKER_00: special news analysis show where we'll be diving into that reveal,
22:09
SPEAKER_00: all about that next week.
22:12
And we may have something else for you as well,
22:13
another little bonus surprise.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: But until then, thank you for tuning in this week.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate all the support, all the feedback we've had.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: So many comments, so many emails.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: It's been a really successful week.
22:25
The first show actually had more downloads than I think most
22:29
podcasts I've ever
22:29
SPEAKER_00: worked on,
22:30
SPEAKER_00: including the one that I worked on last year.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And the first story went everywhere and I was really about GTA 6.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really feeling pretty excited.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: But obviously I know it's all about consistency.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: It's about
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Keep doing this.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I hope you keep tuning in.
22:43
SPEAKER_00: If you've got anything you think we should be doing better,
22:45
SPEAKER_00: you don't like so much,
22:46
SPEAKER_00: you like change.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: Chris, stop talking so much.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Keep talking.
22:49
You've dropped me a line and we'll take all that and we'll try
22:55
and build a show
22:56
SPEAKER_00: that is together that's good for the entire games industry.
23:00
Until then,
23:01
thank you for listening and or watching and have a good weekend.