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Why federal permitting reform is a generational opportunity for energy | Factor This Policycast · Factor This

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: What I loved when this bill came out is I said, oh my gosh, this is affordability fast and slow.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like this bill is understanding that there are quick things you can do now, but you have to do the long things too.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Overall, this is the best opportunity Congress has to lower prices for American households and businesses right now, and we should take that opportunity right now to pass it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: A long-awaited piece of legislation, now awaiting the Senate's consideration, is being billed as a generational opportunity to improve how the United States builds large-scale energy infrastructure.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: The Bipartisan American Affordability and Jobs Act of 2026, or BAHA, since everything in energy gets an acronym.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: This bill probably needs one, but whatever, has been in the works for more than a year.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Its spiritual predecessors have haunted halls on Capitol Hill for far longer.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Baja promises to accelerate generation and transmission development while making the electricity grid cleaner and more reliable.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: The legislation mandates regional and interregional planning and requires joint cost allocation.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: It forces utilities to deploy cost-effective advanced transmission technologies and streamlines permitting reviews for renewables.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: It protects ratepayers from data center grid upgrade costs, makes it easier for batteries to participate in wholesale markets, and so much more.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: By establishing a more predictable path to construction, the American Clean Power Association estimates Baja will inspire more than$800 billion in new energy infrastructure, including more than 350 gigawatts of clean generation, and increase access to lower cost local energy.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: That all sounds lovely, but the devil is in the details, isn't it?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're diving headfirst into Baja on this episode of the Factor This Policy Cast, presented as always in partnership with the National Industry Association, Advanced Energy United.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Can this much ballyhood bill really deliver its promised benefits?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And equally important right now, will it pass both the Senate and the House?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to address those questions with our two guests on the program, Liza Reed, VP of Policy and Director for Climate and Energy at the Niskanen Center, the nonpartisan think tank, and Dylan Reed, the Managing Director of Political Affairs at Advanced Energy United, making his return to the show.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't know me by now, I'm Factor This Content Director Paul Gurky.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: We are recording the show right before election day, the Monday before, and publishing it Thursday, just days before the Senate comes back on November 9th for a cloture vote, and in all likelihood to begin consideration of Baja.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Before we dive into the bill, some quick introductions.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Dylan, you've been on the show before, but tell the people what you're about.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Good to be back, Paul.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Dylan Reed, I uh oversee uh federal and political affairs at Advanced Energy United.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess this is my third time on, so uh glad to be back.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Was there another time we didn't know about?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it's more my memory.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it all just runs together.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Four months of of following elections uh as a part of this.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the first time we were talking state stuff.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: The second time for our This Is Uh Site app uh uh episode on this, I actually worked with Liza at uh the Department of Energy.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So our our guest today can also speak to the benefits of of uh that wonderful program and and hopefully folks are going back to read it or to listen up uh on that as well.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Liza, tell us about yourself and the Niskanon Center.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And correct me if I said it wrong in the intro again, because I swear I've been saying it wrong forever until you just told me the right way to say it a second ago.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: No, that was great.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: Niskanon was perfect.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Bam, nailed it.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: Nailed it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so I'm Liza Reid.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the vice president of policy at the Niskanon Center, and I'm also the director of our climate and energy program.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Niscannon Center is a kind of interesting think tank in DC.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: We have a mission to improve democracy and governance, uh, but across a number of specific policy areas, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: So mine is in climate and energy.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: We also work in criminal justice and social policy.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_03: In the climate and energy space, we look at evidence-based solutions and figure out how to help policymakers understand how to turn evidence-driven research into policies, into legislation, and then into effective governing procedures and processes so that we actually get the outcomes that we need.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: And transmission is definitely an area, and clean energy broadly are definitely areas where we need to be looking at our procedures, figuring out what outcomes we're actually driving towards and doing some correction legislatively to achieve those ends.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is the 11th episode of the policy cast, and I believe the transmission bottleneck has come up.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say in every single episode, but probably pretty close to that.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: You'd have to go back and check.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend you do so.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's some good stuff in the archive already.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and Paul, let me just uh say as well here, just to uh note uh how excited I am that Liza is is on this, is that she is truly uh one of the smartest minds uh when it comes to uh transmission uh on this overall.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: When when we worked together at DOE, the amount of times uh that I would send Liza a team chat saying, can you explain this to me?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and she would run through and the amount of times of like, okay, one more time just to make sure that I that that my little brain and and to prove that I think we worked together for a full year before I went, hey, we have the same last name.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, Liza is I kept distracting him with televoltage, you know.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So she is the true expert uh uh on this one, and I'm I'm thrilled she's she's here to to explain uh the transmission uh benefits uh from Baja.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: You beat me to it, Dylan, because I had initially written in the intro of the show that it was the read it and weep edition of the factor this policy cast.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I deleted it because I was like, what are we doing here, pal?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I thought we were doing a policy show about energy.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're not, it's not stand-up hour at the Chuckle Hut.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so let's talk about the policy we came here to discuss today.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna ask you, Liza, can you explain this to me in just a second?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no doubt about that.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: But first, I want to start with Dylan.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we've talked a lot about this bill.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's been kicking around for a while, even before the language was formally introduced.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's got a lot of pages, like any bill worth its salt, thank goodness for the AI agents to quickly summarize it for folks like us.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I'm sure you have actually uh turned through a few of the pages and and seen how it impacts the clean energy industry specifically.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to know what what its position is on Baja and at a high level summarize why it feels that way.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I've seen some conflicting opinions depending on where on the spectrum you lie.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I will say the big picture on any type of uh legislative vehicle.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I had a good friend uh that that worked with me during the during the days when we were trying to pass the infrastructure investment and jobs act in in 2021 as a part of this, and he kept saying to me, a bill needs to die five times before it can actually pass.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think permitting reform, depending on how you want to do it, like this bill I think has been dead at least twice.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh even right before introduction, uh it almost got it almost got uh uh spiked.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then if you go back and look at uh previous attempts at this, even over the last five years, really, um, we've had start starts and stops at it as as a part of this.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I I am quite confident that there that we are still going on the roller coaster um uh as a part of this.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's all part of the the legislative uh process.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I am uh a history nerd at its finest.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh I will say that this is very much, I think, the intention of when James Madison was crafting exactly what the legislative process was should look like.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is what it should look like.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we we are kind of in the in the midst of of all of that.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: But overall, um, on where uh the where the industry is is standing on this and where advanced energy united is on this, we strongly support uh the bill and see um the need for permitting reform writ large as necessary to help build out uh the infrastructure and the generation and storage resources that we need uh to make sure that we have an affordable and reliable grid overall.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the the big picture on we support this bill and feel that as currently drafted, um it's it's an important uh bill that that should pass.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, are there areas of improvement uh that that should be included um as a part of that?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, uh there are.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we're actively, you know, with our part working on certain sections um that we think that that can get improved, working with allies as a part of this, with other, you mentioned the American Clean Power Association.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're great allies in this and and doing great work um as a as a part of this, as well as working with others.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's been you know significant concerns from from those in the environmental community on certain sections around what that what that looks like and where we need to improve sections um as a part of it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to give credit here, uh, where credit is due, is that actually sitting down and writing the bill and figuring out where the comment is going to go and what are you know, is it a may, is it a shall, is it an and, is it an or?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is incredibly difficult.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to give credit um to Senators Heinrich, Lee, Capito, and White House and their staff for putting this bill together and where it is.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: To their credit, when it came out, they said, this is the initial draft.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: There will be a manager's amendment that comes out to improve this and invited, saying, Hey, where can this improve?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So this was not a bill that was put out there and said, take it or leave it.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: You get no say, you know, that this needs to go.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: They invited that act of and I'll say the the conversations that we've had um up on the hill and and doing this has been one of you know receptive feedback uh as a part of this.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's kind of big picture.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some of the elements that that we want to talk about here, I'll say is uh I'll do this quickly on transmission because I know Liza knows a lot more on this overall, but we need to build out our transmission infrastructure uh across this country.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And this bill has significant provisions that allows for regional transmission to move forward, interregional transmission um to move forward.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I know we had previously talked uh uh around uh transmission bottlenecks uh quite a bit, where you're, you know, you can talk around lines that take five, 10, sometimes 17 years to get their federal permits altogether.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not a sustainable system that's gonna make uh that's gonna work from an affordability standpoint, from a reliability standpoint, and to get newer, cleaner generation uh resources um on the grid that can have significant benefits as a part of that.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: But on top of the transmission side of things, I'm sure the interconnection queue has come up on a lot of episodes uh for you as well, uh Paul, on this.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: This bill also tackles that element, right?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's over 8,000 projects across the country that are caught up in an interconnection queue one way or the other.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this sets up a planning process that makes it much clearer and provides a lot more certainty for projects that are going through the process as a part of this.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: It also has supportive language for advanced transmission technologies that we've talked around and getting that together.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then as you noted uh in the top, as a part of this, we're very supportive.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not just we need to build move a lot of electrons over long distance, which which uh HVDC transmission is incredibly important as a part of this, but distributed energy, getting more resources on people's homes uh and getting consumers engaged as a part of this.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: This bill opens up uh a pathway uh for better participation in wholesale markets, as well as helping state, local, and tribal governments uh get resources for automated permitting uh for things like residential solar and storage.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the aggregate where we are looking at uh at the support elements on where this is, that's where we're supportive of this bill.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna keep working on this.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is we're still around turn three of the roller coaster um uh as a part of this.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, there's there's gonna be improvements coming in on this, but but we think overall, this is the best opportunity Congress has to lower prices uh for American households and businesses right now, and and we should take that opportunity right now to pass it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Liza, curious to get your thoughts.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's clear Dylan is excited about this.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: We are so excited about this in this canon as well.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Dylan mentioned I I think that the bill was dead a couple of times before it was alive.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: And you talked about sort of spiritual predecessors and even IIJA, a piece of legislation that passed, I think, is a spiritual predecessor to this bill because of what it set up, the uh authorities that were granted to the Department of Energy that they then implemented.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: But then we had some quick learning around like, well, that one's not gonna work.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: So we we we have to try again, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: What's the next bite at this apple?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: How do we understand how to move some of these policies forward when we figure out that they're not effective the way originally envisioned?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, this is exactly what Congress should be doing, taking that feedback, figuring out what is the next thing that we need to do to get the infrastructure we need to reach these affordability goals, as Dylan said, to reach clean energy goals, right?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: We do need clean air, clean water, a clean grid.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: The um the affordability aspect is really interesting to me because for the from this bill's perspective.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: Niskanon wrote a piece across our organization in September called Affordability Fast and Slow.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: And we talk about how a lot of politicians tend to focus on fast affordability, right?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: How do I get prices down right now?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty hard with transmission.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a little while to build transmission.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's no right now about it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: But there are things you can do with advanced transmission technology that is a little faster, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes a lot faster, honestly.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, same with what Dylan mentioned about batteries and allowing batteries to participate in the markets.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: What I loved when this bill came out is I said, oh my gosh, this is affordability fast and slow.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like this bill is understanding that there are quick things you can do now, but you have to do the long things too.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Where the I guess I probably should have explained affordability fast and slow, but basically you can do quick things now.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: But if you don't fix your long-term problems, you're just gonna keep having an affordability problem.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: But if you do some fast affordability solutions while also doing your slow sort of long-term affordability solutions, you fix your supply side problem in the long term so that you're bringing those costs down uh for many years, right?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: And not just for one political cycle.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Affordability fast and slow.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I like that a lot.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't heard that before.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the explanation.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It makes a lot of sense.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Before we get any deeper on the bill, and I know Dylan got out his shovel and he got in a couple of layers, but before we we get any further than that, I do want to talk about whether or not it's going to go anywhere.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: For the same reasons that we've all sort of been couching about its spiritual predecessors and other failed attempts to bring federal permitting form to bear.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's worth noting that it's not exactly a sure shot to pass the Senate and pass the House.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Can you two elaborate on its prospects and why?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And also why are we voting for this in November during the lame duck period?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Deadlines really mean a lot in Congress, is I think is the short uh version of that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, uh, so I don't think this is the first time, and it will certainly not be the last time uh that the end of Congress is kind of a target date for when legislation um is going to move through.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think that element in terms of this taking place, you know, votes taking place during this lame duck session uh uh of midterms uh is is surprising.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something we expected all throughout this year um and and where and where that is.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So so that that element I think we're um makes sense.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Congress likes a deadline.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh in terms of the prospects um as a part of this, uh you know, I I'm usually pretty dour uh when it comes on legislative uh side of things that even even as the bill is heading to the president uh sometimes with like you know, 99 votes in the Senate, it can be like, well, you know, you know like there's a 95% chance that he's gonna sign it, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm always on the cautious side as a part of this.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I do think overall uh that you know there is work to be done uh as as a part of this.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: We need to, that is why uh my calendar this week is full of uh meetings and briefings and technical amendments and and all of this to make sure um that we're doing the education uh up on the hill and answering questions, answering very real questions um that Senate and House offices have as a part of this to get where this is going.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we uh this is not a clear thing of saying this absolutely will pass, and but it's also not a clear saying that this absolutely will not pass.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think some of the um, you know, I think as we're looking at it right now is yes, we're we're setting up for next week for a culture vote in the Senate um and moving that forward on the floor side of things.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Should that go forward, um, you know, I think there's a chance that the House um will also have their amendments that they would like to see, in which case needs to go back into conference and and and they'll duke out the negotiations and that before it can go to the president.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's there's work to be done.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm cautiously optimistic is how I would how I would do that.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're talking on Monday, and and so when folks are listening to this on Thursday or later, um the election results will have an impact on on the temperature of of the room and and where things are going.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: But our overall message on this is this is this is a really good opportunity for us to to move the ball forward on permitting.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And for folks that want to revisit you know uh future permitting conversations, like that's what future Congresses are are for.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so we should take the opportunity we have right now to pass this bill.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and I say that with recognition that we still have work to do around amendments and and improving existing uh language within that.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I would agree with that assessment of Dylan.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we're definitely hopeful slash optimistic, depending on sort of which which day and and which page of the the source that I landed on that morning.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: The thing that I think is so interesting about this bill when we've been talking to offices about it is a lot of folks are saying, which is great, a lot of folks are saying we love the transmission title on both sides of the aisle.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that is new.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that's great news that we have already moved the conversation so far in the five years that I've been in DC, that that for the most part is something that folks understand.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that we've been working on in these conversations, and Dylan, I I wonder if you're experiencing the same thing is we can't let the conversation end there.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because you can like the transmission title, but do you know why you like the transmission title?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: Because I have no less than 10 reasons, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's not it's a good transmission title, how do I weigh it against everything else?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: There are so many things happening in that transmission title.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of the things that we've been working on is making sure that that is getting the level of weight that we think it deserves in consideration of this bill, right?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's not when you're putting on the scales as a member of Congress how you want to weigh.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: So transmission is good in here.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's transmission sighting, it is interregional planning, it is advanced transmission technologies, it is batteries and markets, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: It there are so many pieces of this that are really quite important and and created a wonderful foundation, as Down said, for the next round too, right?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: This is if this bill passes, it creates an incredible foundation for learning and growing and adjusting as it gets implemented and as we find out sort of what else needs to change.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna say something that's gonna sound contrary to what I just said about it as a foundation.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: But the other thing I've been saying to offices is that it's also a surprisingly light touch bill for all that it is moving forward.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: And again, a credit to the negotiators.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: There are much stronger versions of any of these provisions, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Interregional planning is a pretty light touch compared to a required interregional transfer capacity requirement, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: We're just saying y'all have to talk to each other and start trying to speak the same language, not you must transfer 45 gigawatts.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that would be insane, actually.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, 10 gigawatts between your regions.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: There there are much stronger versions of everything in here.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: So the fact that they checked so many boxes in terms of what they're moving forward, but also I think we're pretty careful in taking a thoughtful step forward, right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Where the bill itself is a big swing, but each transmission provision I I think is actually an impressively light touch, um, which which I think is a a careful and impressive balance to strike.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we could talk about this part all day, but I'm just curious how how you get that soup recipe just right, especially because this bill has been in the works for so long.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how did they get to the sort of language that gets the things done that you want to get done, but also has that light touch?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's essential to sort of making this the bipartisan.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And bill that it's that it's billed as is making sure that you get those finer details just right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say it's just credit to the to the offices on this uh for working together and taking the collaborative approach um that they were having um as a part of this.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in the last Congress, Senators Manchin and Barrasso also deserve uh quite a bit of credit in working on text as a part of this to kind of set um you know a foundation for for where this bill was coming from and how to build off of that um and the work that they did as a part of this.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then you know, taking additional feedback, you know, getting additional ideas on what worked, what didn't work, and working as a as a part of this as they're continuing to do on some tweaks um uh around different elements of the language here.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I I should I I should also note uh Senator Armstrong uh coming in here in the last uh few months uh as as a senator has also been um a great um uh champion for for permitting reform and certainly as a as a former CEO uh of an infrastructure company, understanding the elements of of what that looks like and working um on a bipartisan fashion um to get to the um get get to where where the bill is right now.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's you know putting putting the head down and writing this stuff is is not always fun.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so folks, you know, deserve credit for for getting into the details on that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: But wise I curious your your your take on that too.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's exactly right.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: I and I know that those offices benefited from reaching out to folks who are in government right now and had previously been in government, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: About well, what worked and what didn't work, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: And taking that feedback and thinking through, okay, well, what does that mean about what we could change, you know, and how do we do this carefully?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think having that perspective from people who have been trying at FERC and a Department of Energy to implement various transmission authorities or seeing what has gone wrong and has not.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because you can certainly, we've heard from utilities for decades about what does and doesn't work and from RTOs.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: But the fact that there were a couple of years where the federal government had transmission authority that it was implementing to learn from is an important part of this too.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so Congress, you know, Congress taking that feedback loop is a really impressive um aspect of how this legislation happened.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: And it's something we talk about.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: We have a state capacity team that cuts across all of our policy areas.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: And when we think about state capacity, it's about, you know, how does a government, how does the federal government primarily get things done, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: The capacity to execute, the capacity to deliver on outcomes.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not just people, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: People is part of it, but like what jobs do they have?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: What skills do they need?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: What procedures are we setting them up for?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: Do they have the digital infrastructure?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: But then the fourth pillar that we talk about is that feedback loop.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Is Congress hearing back this didn't work or this did work?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: And does Congress have the ability to iterate on that and to come up with a solution?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a great case study of exactly that happening.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk a little bit about the actual benefits of the bill.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Since Dylan had the first bite at the apple, I'd love to open up with Liza here to discuss the challenges this legislation is trying to solve.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I know they're myriad, but maybe the three biggest roadblocks from your perspective to deploying the sort of advanced energy that we talk about often on this policy cash show.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know Liza, the transmission component and everything underneath that umbrella seems to be the core of your argument, but I'd love to learn more.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I'm gonna dive in on transmission and then I'm gonna deviate a little towards geothermal energy, because there's great provisions in this bill on geothermal.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: And then talk a little bit about procedure overall, because that ties into our state capacity work.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell There's a couple of really interesting pieces in here, and one is the federal siting authority.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: This is something that has been discussed since 2005 and in fact been in legislation.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's probably been discussed before 2005, but been in legislation since 2005 is what is the right way to give the federal government a role in siting electricity transmission and where in the federal government should it sit?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: And for 21 years, that authority has been split between the Department of Energy and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: What this bill would do is put it all at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which makes a ton of sense on a number of levels.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: On the most basic, that is how we cite natural gas pipelines, right?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: We don't require multiple agencies to get extra involved.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: We say this is interstate infrastructure.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission cites interstate infrastructure for gas pipelines.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: Why shouldn't they cite it for electricity transmission?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: There's also various aspects of environmental review that are streamlined when you only have one agency leading and you don't have two different processes that need to happen sequentially, which sort of requires sequential analyses.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot that it cleans up there that would be really beneficial for speed.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: But going back to my light touch point, it still maintains that states get to go first.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: It gives states a year to evaluate transmission, interstate high capacity transmission on their own before the federal government steps in.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the reason that this is really important is because states do have a process that they follow, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: Every state has a different process, which is part of the problem.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: But by allowing this federal backstop, by maintaining the federal backstop, it it pres gives this light touch that says, states, you can still use your process.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: So in some states, that process is you bring me three different paths, and my power citing board will decide which path that this transmission line is going on.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so it preserves that the state could do that, as opposed to the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission's process, which might not have that, right?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: We won't know until this bill passes and they promulgate exactly how they want to move forward.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: But those are some things that I think are part of the light touch here.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: It also gives a pretty narrow view on what the federal government should be citing.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: So previous spiritual predecessors had had a broader expanse, right?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: It said basically everything that has been legislatively called transmission it over the decades.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: So anything over a hundred kilovolts.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: What this transmission title says is it's got to be 230 kilovolts and it has to be interstate.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like let's stick to the things that are going to have interstate com interstate commerce impacts.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: On top of that, it allows this thing called pre-filing, which means you file at the state and you file at the federal government at the same time for a further narrow subset of those lines, right?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: Which is 345.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: These are the big everything 345 and above.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: You're always just moving bulk power, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's a ton of power at once.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: It is for use in interstate uh markets, in energy markets.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so it says like these are the types of lines that are an essential backbone across the country.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: And that backbone is important enough that we should be able to make it even faster.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: So there's this federal siting authority is both quite simple and quite complex in how they have put it together.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I really think that layering is so important when we think about sort of the compromise and light touch.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: There's also the interregional planning aspect.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: So I mentioned, you know, there's been a discussion of this for five years.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Do we have interregional planning?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: FERC proposed it at least five years ago just on their own, right?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: And this is something that FERC could go forward with on their own.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then there was a question of, well, should they have a minimum transfer capacity?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: Should you have to be able to move power between regions?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: This is really important when we think about extreme weather, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: That is the sort of the most salient case for moving power bulk between regions, is that you want a grid that's bigger than the weather.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: And when you look at where energy prices are in storms, it is correct, it is accurate that we're very rarely having weather so widespread that the grid can't move power where it's needed if those transmission lines existed.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: But instead, what we see is that like during winter storm Fern, for example, there were transmission lines.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: If there had been transmission between MISO and SPP, between SPP and Texas in ERCOT, you know, there was a hundred million dollars lost just from that storm.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: Now,$100 million is not a lot for building a transmission line, but we're talking about$100 million for one storm, right?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: These transmission lines are gonna exist for decades.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you can build them now, you can capture that value.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because what's happening right now is ratepayers are paying that, right?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: You are stuck either not having power or paying extremely high prices for power when your neighbor isn't having that problem at the exact same time, right?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: So this interregional planning is another provision that I think could really pay dividends.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: And again, it starts with a pretty light touch, right?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: So where we s see for if this passes, promulgate rules on it and then regions implement it will be really interesting to watch.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, are they moving forward in actually getting this interregional transmission planned?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: The other piece that I thought was so interesting in the transmission is the local planning oversight.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: So this is, you know, there's a really interesting report that RMI, that Claire Weiner at RMI wrote, I want to say three years ago, um, minding the regulatory gap, I believe it was called.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: On this on this issue where there's this particular type of transmission that states don't think that they have oversight over because of how FERC rules are written.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: And FERC doesn't think they have oversight over because of how state rules are written.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: And so there ends up being no oversight over these transmission lines.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's this type of so-called local transmission that's just getting built and folded into rates.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: And some of it's probably good.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: Probably all of it is not necessary, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: But there's no one to look.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's no one actually who feels like they have the authority to look into this.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so the light touch approach that this bill takes is it says states, you can ask FERC to look.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: It just establishes states don't state states can raise if there's an issue.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: FERC will do the looking.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is also helpful for you know what uh what capacity looks like in terms of personnel, right?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: All states might not have the capacity, but they can ask the federal government to step in and review what this local transmission looks like.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: So those are three pieces that I think are really impressive about the transmission title, that they can move.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's a ton of potential there, but also a pretty light touch in terms of re-scrambling authorities or anything like that.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: We're not seeing that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um the final one I'm gonna squeeze in a fourth.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: I said three, but I'm gonna squeeze in a fourth, which is the codification of um the ban on federal rights of first refusal.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a transmission competition aspect where previous for many decades utilities had the right of first refusal is what it's called, rofer ROFR, that if any transmission was built in their service footprint, they got first crack at building it.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: And this is valuable for utilities because they get a return on investment for anything that they build, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: These um regulated utilities do.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's great for their outcome, but it's not great for competition, right?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: And where competition is valuable for frankly driving prices down and maybe making more interesting and useful and innovative projects from a technology perspective, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is why we want more competition in the grid system, because there is evidence that competition in four to five regions, a study that R Street just came out with in four out of five regions, competitively grid projects were built faster than incumbent projects.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh competitive bidding can cust cut transmission costs by 20 to 30%, right?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: All of this is incredibly valuable.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the bill still takes a pretty light touch.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: It just says we're codifying it where it is now.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_03: Now, to Dylan's point, there is a question of some language that might need to be modified there.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it'll be interesting to see what comes out in a manager's amendment because I've heard a couple of different interpretations of the language.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: But my understanding of the intent of the language was that it was codifying.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: It was saying we previously allowed utilities to maintain building in their own footprint until Order 1000.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so we've had a couple of decades where we allowed transmission.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: And now we are codifying that that competition has to be maintained.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: And this stops FERC from going back to where it used to be.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: This stops a regulatory rollback to say, oh, well, you know, for speed to power reasons, right?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, sort of buying into these affordability concerns, there's been a real push to say, let's get competition out of it.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe competition is making things harder.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's not really evidence that that is the case.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and so this codifies and says, FERC, don't roll it back, keep it.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: And when you implement interregional planning, make sure you keep it for interregional planning too.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's a pretty light touch, all things considered, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because there are carve outs that FERC has had in there that they could have gotten rid of.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: You could go all the way into the states and say maybe we should ban state rights of first refusal.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't do any of that, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: They said, let's just hold it where it is and make sure that we're not doing any regulatory rollback to give competition more opportunity here.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Dylan, get the water wings off and get in the pool.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Your thoughts.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Plus plus one.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I'll I have three points as well, but addendum.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: You better have a fourth ready because the fans are going to be wanting the bonus content now that LISA set the table that way.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to respond to two of LISES as well.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's five.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're really uh a full starting lineup here.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So uh just on the local transmission uh planning uh element that just provide a little bit of context on that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: There has been significant concern about the impact of those projects on uh raising rates overall.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so there's some cases where uh, you know, dependent on your territory, it can be upwards of 50 or even 70% of transmission projects that are getting built in certain areas, are these local transmission projects and the impact that that can have on rates?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And because there's been that limited oversight role, um, you know, what is the impact that that's, you know, could we have built a more efficient line?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is did was that line needed?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: That that type of oversight, I think, is the is the element that is important there when we talk around what does that mean for affordability?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh in pr this is not an interregional uh transmission planning uh podcast.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: At least this episode is not, but like those are where the real benefits are coming from.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way that we can do that over kind of these localized projects, I think, is a is an important question to ask.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Again, there are amendments that are going to address this, but that is an important uh context on there.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the rofer uh side of things.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you brought that up, Liza.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was going to be one of those, so it can be it can be shared as a part of that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think is you know, we are um, you know, pro-competitive markets and pro-allowing for competition um as a part of that.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and think that that's a an important element of what's getting it included, and and we're supportive of uh of the addition there.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: The other elements I want to cover here, one is the interconnection piece as a part of this.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've talked about cues a lot a lot as a part of this and and where there's been backlogs and the challenges as a part of this.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, 10 months ago or so when uh when we were saying like transmission is great, we need this section, and we are concerned that you know, if we're not tackling interconnection as a part of this, that that you know, you might not be looking at the permitting side of things.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, well, what's the role of the federal government in handling an interconnection uh side of things?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're talking around, you know, in some cases, like a substation in one state, right, uh in when it comes to interconnection.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh what they've put forward as a part of this is a planning process that says with within uh your regional transmission or independent system operator uh uh regions of the country uh that you need to have a consolidated planning process, which has been started to develop in an SPP uh market, uh Southwest PowerPool uh uh market in uh uh in the US right now, and essentially saying that you need to look at this on a planning process of understanding your transmission, uh, your generation.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's conversations we're looking at to also look at what is the load that is coming on, right?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: The data center uh element of this, of how can we have a planning process, and then say that we need to look at that of having an upfront fee so that you know what the price is to interconnect at those side of things, because you know, to build these projects, you need to have certainty on the financing side of things.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been very challenging for a lot of our members on this side of things that they can go through the whole permitting process, they can go through the financing process as a part of this, and right when they get to the interconnection, they're like, hey, actually your price is now going to be 50% higher as a part of that.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's very difficult to plan and to actually build a project as a part of this, that you go through years of going through an interconnection process and then the financing changes as a part of this.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that is an important element on where they're tackling this um as a part of this, and and we're incredibly uh supportive on that end.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about the DER side of things.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is, I believe, if you if if uh listeners can go back and look at Advanced Energy United's first filing at FERC uh on aggregated distributed energy resources.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it's 10 years ago this week uh that we made our first you should do something on this.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: And FERC, FERC agreed uh as a part of this to kick off this process.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: While there's been some uh progress as a part of this, this bill really tackles us to say affirmatively saying that DER should be able to participate in this and it's a a strong element of this.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also, you know, local, state, tribal governments uh are taxed for resources all across the country and and what they're able to do.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and, you know, with people coming to them and companies coming in saying, you know, we need to do residential solar and storage, that's challenging, right?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's been a lot of um good progress when it comes to automated permitting um on that front.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this bill supports that um as well, which is incredibly uh important.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, as someone uh as a homeowner myself that is trying to get uh some of these uh technologies on on our house uh on this, that it is have gone through that process on where this is and having greater um access to good permitting there matters.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: The last element that I that I also want to talk around is some of the challenging uh aspects as a part of this.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is really in related to, I'm gonna say broadly, around the project certainty uh elements uh as a part of this.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: For for anyone that has been listening is going, how have they not talked about project certainty yet?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that is is an uh is is an aspect I want to go here.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: The the big picture context on this is that, you know, over the last 18 months or so is that there have been permits that have been pulled predominantly for wind and solar projects as a part of this.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been unsustainable uh for the industry to try and move forward um as a part of this, where you've done all of the work, you have followed the law, and permits are just getting pulled.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't work.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we heard very clearly from offices um over the course of these negotiations that are saying, you know, pretty, you know, some some language is pretty blunt, like, why are we even negotiating a bill like this when bills are getting permit?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't want to participate in this process.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um this bill attempts to address that very specific element of you cannot pull uh permits uh just because you want to, right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and a lot of times it can it can come for you know political preferences of any given administration.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um this language is putting it forward to block the opportunity to just pull permits uh for any one administration that wants uh to do that on that front.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as currently drafted, there are a lot of questions of what does that mean over the long run?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, how would this just block any attempt um as a part of this?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: That if a permit goes through, even if it was done so unlawfully or if it's ignoring a court order or things like that, you know, is there any recourse for someone to, you know, to litigate and say, listen, we don't think that this was done the right way overall as a part of this?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Language can get cleaned up as a part of that.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to, you know, support our partners as a part of this that are working in good faith to figure out how to answer that question.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and we don't want any unintended consequences of that language, which is attempting to address a very real problem, but we need to address the unintended consequences of that.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a sticking point that's going on that I think over the next, you know, month uh or so uh you know, we want we want to address that.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: The second thing is the you know, you can't just discriminate against certain resources as a part of this.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And right now it currently says, well, look back five years and you have to take like the aggregate of what you know what what was the standard over the last five years on that discrimination.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: For those that have said, well, we feel like we've been discriminated against the last two years, that now is written into law that that discrimination is legal.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are elements.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: That we need to address on both fronts as a part of that.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that is just, you know, an important, I think, a challenge.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is workable.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: We are going to work through it as a part of this, but I didn't want folks that are that are in the weeds on this to go, how are they not addressing this?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: That that is an element that has to be addressed and we're working through that as a part of this.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We still support the bill as a part of this and appreciate the leadership of all the senators and offices that are working through these sticky issues to get it right.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now's the time to get it right, and and and we are we're looking forward to working with them on it.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: I can add a couple of sticky myself.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think another interesting sticky issue is the um ratepayer protection aspects.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: So there's some language in here around data centers requiring data centers to pay for their transmission sort of on its face, that makes a ton of sense, right?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: When you see uh an industry that's coming on fast that has a ton of need for energy, and that if our procedures can't catch up, that cost will get spread out over to ratepayers in a way that can feel really unfair under our current sort of cost allocation regime for how we pay for transmission.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's been a real bipartisan push for making sure that we have rules in place that ensure that data centers are paying for the transmission that they need and for the energy that they need.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's some question and some discussion.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it'll be interesting to see what comes out in a manager's amendment to make sure that in drafting that language, there was not an unintentional consequence that would undermine interregional planning.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because if suddenly these big transmission lines are now put in a data center bucket instead of an interregional planning bucket, right?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like what is if the whole point is to create fewer processes with interregional planning and streamlined interconnection, you know, let's make sure we have an unintentionally created um this other process that's going to make it harder to make everything make sense together in the transmission space.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_03: Dylan, I don't know if you had any further thoughts on that.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: I've heard a couple of different ways that that could go.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I'm just kind of interested to see where the details land on that.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, yes.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh data centers uh and their impact on on ratepayers is kind of like a major uh uh election conversation and where this is going.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so that you know, that language is a huge um negotiation point.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the the big picture to take take away on that question is what can protect ratepayers and what is able to be implemented uh as a part of that.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so as they're going in there, um I think that's the the major question.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's exactly right.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I wouldn't be surprised if we see changes there that uh really are just about making it make sense, making it workable.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot in here.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um we could keep going.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: We try to keep these shows to about an hour, so maybe it's time we turn our attention to what's not in Baja.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Did either of you notice something that you would have liked to see, or maybe an element that was discussed earlier on in the planning process of this legislation that you're a bit bummed it got left out.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know you've both talked around the edges of, hey, there's still some changes that can be made here, but I'm not sure adding anything of major significance is going to happen at this point, but maybe I'm wrong.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh enlighten me.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: Aaron Powell From the transmission perspective, you know, as I said, a lot of the things that they have here, I think, are important and a light touch approach.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: We have advocated and written about the way that a stronger approach could be really valuable, right?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: So that was just an interesting um an interesting place that they landed makes a lot of sense for bipartisan negotiation, right?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: You could have done a a direct federal siding authority for transmission and not had the states move forward, or you could have required an interregional capacity requirement.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um the other one that I think is interesting and we're still working through, is that there's no mention of high voltage direct current transmission technology.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think Dylan mentioned that earlier in this episode where HVDC, we've actually had this electricity transmission technology as long as we've had AC.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: So our almost our entire grid runs on alternating current transmission.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a whole episode in of itself to talk about AC versus DC.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: The DC technology has evolved a lot, matured a lot.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's actually a completely new way that we transmit DC technology.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's only 25 years old, which from a grid perspective is a baby.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's a lot of opportunity for this technology to be incorporated into our grid and it provide reliability by making the grid stable whenever there's instability in an alternating current system, um, by supporting the movement of power across long distances when we have extreme weather or other issues.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a ton of potential for getting this technology in the grid.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing in Baja that stops HVDC from being considered.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually think there's a lot of pieces that would support more of it.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're the interregional planning requirement could include a lot of HVDC when the plans happen.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: The way that they talk about paying for transmission could provide opportunity for transmission competition for merchant transmission projects who are building HVDC to consider to change the way that they pay for their projects.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there's a lot of potential for DC in the bill.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_03: But we have talked to offices over the years about sort of specific provisions that would specifically benefit DC.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that was certainly something from a transmission perspective that uh that is not there.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll call out um uh two elements as as a part of this that I would say, you know, there's still an ongoing conversation around the the the federal role as a part of this.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh, you know, what are the solutions as a part of this, but but it's more around the there's still a role for the federal government here moving forward, and so this is not we, you know, this is an important bill to pass.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: We should pass it, but we have to keep the conversation going uh to make sure that it isn't another 30 years uh before we say, you know, oh, okay, permitting is fine, we never have to go back again.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I say that is that there are some companies that we work with that the concept of their business model, the technology, what they're able to provide to the grid didn't exist like five years ago.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: But now they're running into the you know federal problems that that are coming out there, or state or local problems that are that are coming out as a part of this.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you know, things like advanced distribution technologies, right, and and how those are getting deployed on the grid overall is in is incredibly important in how we tackle that um overall.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and we need to make sure that that there's you know the proper federal support um and and where that comes together.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: What's the role around, you know, we talked around aggregated DERs overall, but what's the proper role and how the federal government can look at things like, you know, not my favorite term, we'll, you know, but community power and and virtual power plants overall, right?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and how we want to do that.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: So those are elements I think we can continue to look forward towards uh and making sure that there's support there too.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'll make a plug for uh geothermal as another technology that actually has been around for a long time, but hasn't had a really uh consistent or meaningful federal hook to it.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm violating the rules once again, Paul, by saying a positive thing about the bill when we're supposed to be seeing the gaps.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I didn't want to miss the opportunity to highlight that the bill does some really useful things for building out geothermal supply in the United States.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: And one of them is just making the rules consistent with oil and gas and with solar and wind.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: So we've had a lot of um improvements in what the federal expectations are for permits across energy broadly, and geothermal has not been part of that.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's something called the gold book that the Department of Interior puts out that says here's how you need to get a permit, and geothermal's not in there, right?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: Which means that every project is going to be even more bespoke than we already were that permitting is bespoke because you don't even have a standard book.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, also standardized sort of the leases to make them consistent with oil and gas and um just a couple of things like that that I think speak to exactly what Dylan was talking about, about like we've got we've got changes that we know are happening in technology and availability of different resources, and we've got to make sure we keep catching up.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about violating any unwritten or written rules here on the policy cast Liza.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: We we play it pretty loose and fast, I'll be honest.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: As we round third and head for home here, to use another metaphor, I'd love to know some parting thoughts from both of your perspectives about this legislation.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're in this critical period.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: As I mentioned at the top, we're taping the show the Monday before election day.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's going live Thursday this week, so it'll be live with a couple of days to spare before Senate returns to Capitol Hill.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of uncertainty, to say the least, swirling around, not just this critical piece of legislation, but the general state of things at large uh in Washington, D.C.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: As we round out this episode of the Factor This Policy Cast, Dylan and Liza, thoughts on all of that together, or maybe some part of Baja that we didn't have a chance to get into today?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll say two points to take away um as a part of this.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: One, this is an ongoing conversation for the coming weeks as a part of this.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are opportunities where you know, where folks have legitimate concerns as a part of this that we can improve uh and there will be improvements coming.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: I feel strongly as a part of this, uh as a part of this process that we're going to see improvements coming uh all together.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and I want to acknowledge the the folks that that have that have uh pointed out areas that need additional review.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the second element uh that I want to point out here is we should, you know, we should work on on the technical amendments that need to get in there.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and when that comes together as a part of this, that's now is the is a is the time to pass a permitting reform package, and we need to get it done before the end of the year as a part of this.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, Congress really likes deadlines, and so that probably means if we don't pass this right now, that's another two years.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another two years of backlog projects.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's that's another two years of projects not getting connected to the grid as a part of this, and another two years of prices continuing to go up.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: This sends a great signal to the market.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: This opens up the opportunity to get infrastructure moving um as a part of this and allow for prices to come down as a part of this.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can pass this bill and then address additional problems after this as a part of this.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that there's bipartisan support um as a part of this.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Again, there's still work to be done as a part of this, but uh this bill is good on its own and and we should move forward.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, echoing what Dylan said, the timing is is really challenging if it doesn't pass in this Congress, because the reason that it's two years is that we are expecting to see a lot of new members of Congress.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: We've got a lot of folks retiring who aren't running for re-election, let alone what might come from folks being unseated on election day tomorrow or two days ago, uh depending on when you're listening.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but that requires a whole nother round of education, right?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: You you can presume that uh every new office is starting from zero.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so either we pass this bill, either Congress passes this bill, and then the education starts at, okay, here's here where we are now, right?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: We've got to work on implementation and understand what your interests are and and and what would move forward, sort of like what's the next round, or it's all the way back to zero.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, how do we talk through what the problems are?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: We've got years of this, but this is new to you.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's why it takes at least two years to get another one of these packages forward.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it it's an incredible opportunity right now to get this done.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, choose your best metaphor.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: Is this the bird in the hand?
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: Is this the half a loaf?
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think Moneyball would tell me that this is, you know, we've got a single or a double or maybe a triple, right?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: You've got your on-base percentage, is what you should be focusing on.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because eventually those rents will be bad at it.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: Am I messing this one up?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what the lesson from Moneyball.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: Get on base.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: No, this is great.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Just create create a lot of baseball.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, this is great.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is the opportunity to mix up as many of those as possible.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Just sort of uh choose your own idiom and display.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, put the loaf on the base, right?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's the bird in the hand of the local.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't the people on Capitol Hill listen to us for the brewers fans?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for the brewers fans out there.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think we just need Pat Murphy to come to DC and get this get this bill done, and uh and all will be good.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's all it takes to move legislation along on Capitol Hill, right?
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put in still come vouch for it.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'll put in one more plug for vouching, which is the I mentioned state capacity early on, and and I want to come back to it because there's aspects of this bill that are also just about making procedure better across the board, right?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's gonna be better for clean energy.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um and part of that is uh there's this thing called judge shopping, right?
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: Where when you have a lawsuit, you can take it anywhere you want.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_03: And this is really challenging for projects and developers, and frankly, for the certainty of laws and how they get implemented, because if every project goes to where they think a judge is going to agree with them, then it takes many years to figure out what the actual rules should be, what the standards should be.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_03: One of the things that this bill establishes is that for uh the National Environmental Policy Act, for the National Historic Preservation Act, for the Clean Water Act, right?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: It sends it to the circuit courts, right?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's not figuring out anything that has jurisdiction that says you're going right to the circuit courts.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: The Endangered Species Act goes right to the DC circuit court.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: This is something that has happened in the Federal Power Act for natural gas for decades, right?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that brings a certainty, right?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: You still don't know exactly what the court is gonna decide, but at least it is clear where the message is coming from and and where the process needs to go from there.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's also some pieces just on deadlines and creating deadlines.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's gonna be changes from this bill, but there are still there's still the Administrative Procedures Act and the ways that you know there are protections from actual errors and actual harm um while still allowing projects to move forward.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's just a a ton of great opportunity here.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: And as Dylan said, we'll see what comes out in the manager's amendment.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because this process, the negotiation, the correction, the clarification, all of that is going to be essential.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is definitely something the energy industry is going to have its eyes on over the next weeks and months and years, hopefully, if everything goes to plan.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate having your sets of eyes on it, Dylan Reed from Advanced Energy United and Liza Reed over at the Niskanon Center for shedding light on the bipartisan American Affordability and Jobs Act of 2026.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: I needed to say it in total one last time because we've been calling it Baja throughout.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone just popped in, they probably think we're talking about the Mountain Dew variant that everyone gets at Taco Bell.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: We are not.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has made that joke, including me already.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's we need to come up with another one.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the next best Baja joke is.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I gotta tell you, it's actually the first the first time I understood it because sent me a Mountain D a Mountain Dew email last week.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: What the fuck are they talking about?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now I just went, oh, yes, Baja.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: The dots have been connected.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is my role on the podcast, Dylan, to take the disparate dots and draw lines between them.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've got my head too far in the sand to understand jokes apparently about this bill.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm too deep in the Taco Bell meta to appreciate that other people don't get that reference.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, this is we're not gonna besmirch the good name of Taco Bell on the phone.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, we love a Taco Bell.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Not on this program, no.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, listen, if I'm not looking for a sponsor, but if if someone's trying to send Cheesy Gordita Crunches my way, I'm not gonna do that.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Contract Supreme is my is my preferred go-to for putting orders in, apparently.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_03: I just like a taco.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: I just like a ground beans.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right, well now we know what to order when this bill passes.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll have taco belt.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: The celebration it calls for.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right, guys, it's time to wrap up this addiction this edition of the Factor This Policy Cast.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, I appreciate you lending your expertise to this conversation.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you, the viewer and listener, enjoyed it, please like and subscribe.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do another uh episode of the policy cast coming up uh two Thursdays from now.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be a big one, an election recap episode, all of the uh impacts on the clean energy industry and beyond.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: Can't wait for that conversation.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you can check it out.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: I am Paul Gurky, content director of Factor This.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Recommend the policy cast to a pal in the industry.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good listen, I think.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, until next time.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: Be good, everybody.