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The Daily Zeitgeist: Fright-con #42 - Ghosts: Is It Swayze Or Slimer? · Spooky Season Podcasts 🎃

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hello the internet and welcome to this spin-off episode of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: their daily zeitgeist which we call the iconograph instead of
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: looking at the zeitgeist through current events on monday mornings
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: we look at the zeitgeist through the powerful pop cultural
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: deities that are our icons um or now that it's
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: october our fright cons it's spooky season it's uh tdz
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: house of horror episodes and uh So far, we've covered Dracula,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Hannibal Lecter, and for our third FrightCon of October, we're
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: going with the number one most believed-in paranormal character. According
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: to the 2018 Chapman University Survey of American Fears, 58%
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: of Americans believe in today's icon, which is more than
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: have voted for any president in the last 42 years. Today,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: we ask the question, are we indeed... Not afraid of
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: no ghosts. I would say we are actually not afraid
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of ghosts. We are afraid of no ghosts. We want
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: there to be ghosts. We're afraid that there's not ghosts.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: We need there to be ghosts. Yeah, we need there
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: to be ghosts. I'm thrilled to be joined by my co-host.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: He once sucked Dan Aykroyd off so hard it made
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: his eyes cross. It's Miles Gray!
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: I really thought you were about to say that.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: For me.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I really thought that was my intro, and I was like... Wow,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: they got real comfortable.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Wow. They're feeling real comfortable with me.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a pretty off-color Halloween costume a few
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: years ago, Jack's referencing.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: But yes, great to be here.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: A thing that I honestly, I'm always constantly grappling with
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: this subject of ghosts.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Because I come from a pretty spooky ghost culture. I straddle, like,
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: black people like ghosts. Japanese people like ghosts.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. But I hate them. I don't like them.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: They freak me out.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: What they do is they give me a little bit
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: to think about what it is about ghosts that kind
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: of rubs me the wrong way or why I sort
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: of don't want them to be real at times.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm glad we're doing this. This is a
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: good exercise. Let me ask you, do black people like ghosts?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: I know, I mean, in my family, there has been
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: ghost talk. I have a lot of ghost talk. things. Like,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: they've always talked about haunted shit. T-O-K. Ghost talk. Ghost talk.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: They're on TikTok. They're on TikTok. But I mean, I
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: think just a lot of stuff, too.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: I think there's just a lot of spirituality that intersects
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: with it that kind of can be supernatural. It also
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: depends on the flavor of Christian you can be, because
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: sometimes my grandmother would not like that, because she's like,
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: there's only one.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: This is the Holy Spirit kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I think my grandma's a little bit like that, too.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but there was also times when it would be like,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: They're like, there was this, when I was a little
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: girl in Chicago, there was this ghost. And I'm like, okay,
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: so which one is it? Like, is it, is there
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: only one ghost or are you constantly seeing ghosts?
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: They have encounters, but we don't want to admit it. Right.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: I feel like listening to our guests podcast this week,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: I was like, Oh yeah, I did have like some
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: weird shit happen when I was a kid. That's really interesting. Um,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: let's get to in our third seat, uh, director, journalist,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: and the host of the other world podcast, which, uh,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I've been on a tear listening to past week. And, uh,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: it's like every time, every year he comes on in
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: October for our, uh, spooky season, uh, And I get
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: pulled into a hole of just nonstop other world episodes.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: He's a real life ghost examiner, and yet he's never
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: once found a haunting to be an old wealthy guy
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: in a latex mask trying to sink the property value
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: of an abandoned amusement park. Please welcome back to the show.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: It's Jack Wagner. Jack. It's an honor to be back, folks.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you. Great time to be back.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: And it's good timing, too, because I don't know if
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: you listened to the most recent episode, but it's... I
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: would say the most ghost evidence that I've encountered, at
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: least on my show.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Which one is it?
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: It is called Long's Peak, for anyone who wants to
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: check it out.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Duh! I was too deep in the archive, and I
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: missed it. You should listen to it.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: It is kind of crazy. Well, I could get into
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: it further, but... Yeah, we can get into it. It's...
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Investigating this stuff is not super easy or cut and dry.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I rarely get my hopes up. This is one where
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: I usually try to look into things the best I can,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: but I rarely get my hopes up when it comes
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: to somebody seeing something and being able to find out, like, oh,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: that was a real person that you saw, and this
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: is who it was. But that was the case with
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: this episode, and we were able to further... confirm it
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: later on.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Like straight up conjuring shit, where you're like, if you
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: actually look at these photographs. Yeah, yeah.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: But that almost never happens, and... It took me by surprise.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I still don't know what to make of it. That
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: being said, I feel weird accusing people of being a ghost.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: So I kind of like kept the guy's name out
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: of it just because that feels so weird to me.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: Like if I were if I die tragically, the idea
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: of like some paranormal show putting me on blast, especially
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: if I'm.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Not the ghost. Wow, that's interesting. I've never, you know.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: never really thought about that of like, do you, if
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: it's a private citizen, even though they're deceased, do you
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: do that? Not putting their name. Yeah. You blur their
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: name out. Yeah. That feels great. I mean, Yeah. They
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: haven't signed anything. I mean, that's amazing.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: You're actually somehow more ethical than, like, most murder podcast hosts.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: No. So, I mean, yeah, we'll go from where we started.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't even.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: I don't want to out this person as a ghost
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: if they're not. It just feels really not my place. Like,
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: that's such an interesting thing to kind of have to
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: contend with. Well, it's similar to me, too, because it's just, like,
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: I think about... And not to get too serious right
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: off the rip, even though I'm not a very serious person, but, like,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: with the murder podcast, same with, like, the ghost stuff, imagine.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: something horrible.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: Happened to your loved one sure and then there's these
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: like dumb ass youtube shows being made about it or
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: like right you know and after you speculating crazy shit
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: like i mean just like the whole economy of uh
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: true crime like trial-based podcasts like sure just imagining like
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: your your wife gets horribly murdered and then like the
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: country randomly decides you did it Right.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: That must suck. Yeah, for no reason. It usually is
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: the husband.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: But yeah, bad example there, statistically speaking.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: But yeah, same with the ghost. Like, I don't know.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I just feel like we should respect the dead.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Well, and I feel like actually that, in a way,
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: it becomes a more flippant, sensationalized version of a thing
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: when you're like, and it's.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Like this haunted place. Like, you know, people just jackass.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: That's a really good impression of Otherworld, by the way.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: It's this haunted place.
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: I'm talking about like those YouTube, like YouTube people that
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: are like, this is like this spooky place.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are. That is the whole genre. No way!
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: You know? A cute boy goes to a haunted place
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: and is like, what was that? And then they like
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: give like this like really studied like model look over there. Yeah.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: And they're trying to like, talk to the it's one
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: of those things where it's like if you believe in
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: ghosts you should not be doing that you're like being
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: extremely rude to a murder victim who's stuck right right
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: in this place for eternity yeah that's you're harassing them
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: if you believe in ghosts yeah and if you don't
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: believe in ghosts then you know you're just an idiot
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: like what are you doing you're.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: A liar yeah right like why are you there uh
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: reviews reviews We've talked before about like aliens and I've
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: said that I want to believe, but I don't have
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I have some things that I'm like, I don't understand
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: how that happened, but I don't have like the the
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: thing that is like that. There it is solved. And
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I think I'd love ghosts in that category as well. Like,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: I would love to be presented with evidence. of hauntings
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: or just like any afterlife, I'll take something over nothing,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: you know, even though many ghosts seem to be acutely
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: uncomfortable based on, based on, uh, the noises they're making. But, uh,
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I, I'll also say like, I, in terms
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: of ghosts and the afterlife, like I went to church
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: every Sunday and, When I was a kid. And I
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: have no clear idea of how the Catholic afterlife works. Oh,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: you're Catholic? Yeah, yeah. I'm more fascinated with theirs, yeah. Yeah,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: there's like a purgatory, brutal thing where you go if
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: you aren't great, but aren't specifically evil. And you're supposed
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to be praying.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Well, this might be more for Orthodox, but people pray
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: for the souls.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: That are in purgatory.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah and i think some orthodox denominations of catholicism believe
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: that you can like ask the souls in purgatory to
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: help you and then like them helping you get those
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: deeds uh give them points towards like getting into heaven
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: eventually right i.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Don't my point is i i don't know i don't
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: know how it works i don't know what gets you
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: there i don't know what gets you out i do
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: know like how I would end up in the ghost
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: or the sixth sense afterlife, you know, like those are
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: like the crispest clearest image that I have of an
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: afterlife is from ghost movies. I think, you know, I
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: think for most people. Yeah.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I will also say, just going back to the Chapman
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: survey thing of people just kind of believing in ghosts,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: like most people, I guess, believing in ghosts and hauntings.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I was going through the all-time adjusted box office of
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: like in the history of American films, like what movies
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: have made the most money based on, you know, uh,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: adjusted box office. So like number one for that is still, uh,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: gone with the wind because it like sold the most
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: tickets ever of any movie. Um, but like when you're
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: going down, I was, I was looking for like ghostbusters
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and sixth sense and like where they are on the list. Like,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: as I was going down, I was realizing that there's
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: like a bunch of huge blockbusters that have like just
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: incidental ghost appearances and Like Empire Strikes Back, like all
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: the Star Wars movies have ghosts. Yeah, that's true. The
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Lion King has ghosts. Raiders of the Lost Ark has ghosts.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Pirates of the Caribbean has ghosts. Passion of the Christ
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: ends with a ghost. One of the holy ghosts. Harry
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Potter has ghosts. Like movies that aren't explicitly ghost movies
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: still just have ghosts. It's such an ancient plot device.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: No other paranormal character could just show up in an
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: otherwise sci-fi movie or children's cartoon. If Mufasa spoke to
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: his son from an alien spacecraft in the sky or
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: like if obi-wan was a vampire like that would not
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: work at all but we just kind of allow for ghosts.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: Well because it's so culturally universal right we all have
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: to contend with death and thinking of the afterlife or
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: what happens after no matter where you are on the
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: planet or religion or culture so it's like an accepted
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: kind of texture i feel like for all of us
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: because right yeah right yeah like what Of course, we're
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: going to ask it.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: What happens after that? Oh, yeah, it's a ghost. I
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: think I would have assumed that aliens were more believed
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: in than ghosts. Oh, no way. Ghosts have to be
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: number one. Yeah, ghosts are number one with a bullet.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: And it also like if you look at the Indiana
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Jones movies, it makes sense because in Raiders of the
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Lost Ark, It just ends like it's a, you know,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: pretty secular movie. And then it ends with like ghosts
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: coming out. And everyone's like, yep, that's that's the best one.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: That makes sense to me. But then Kingdom of the
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Crystal Skull, they were like, and now aliens come out
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: and people are like, the fuck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: You know, speak to most people and dig like you
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: can find that they've had some sort of weird ghost story.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: adjacent experience, even if it's small, you know, whether or
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: not they believe it. Like, I think most people would
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: be like, well, there's probably some kind of explanation for that, but.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: It was weird. Sure. Yeah, exactly. But it is extremely common.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: As you know, as you've shown. The other thing I
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: would just say about like our kind of trying to
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: map how people think about ghosts using our pop culture
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: is like when you actually look at the movies that
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: have done the best that are explicitly about ghosts, it's Generally, like,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I think people want them to be friendly, or, like,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: they tend to be friendly, you know? Like, even the
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: sixth sense, which, like, is, you know, spooky when you
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: first see the ghost, because they have Beetlejuice ghost rules
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: where you, like, still have whatever injury killed you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Which seems fucked up. A little, yeah, could do with
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: better vibes. You just, like, show up at someone's window with, like,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: half your head hanging off. But generally, it's just people...
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: You know, Ghost is another... Like, the Patrick Swayze Ghost
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: movie was a massive hit, and it's, like, scary idea
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: at first, but, you know, they are just people who are, like... Or, yeah, like,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: dead people who are looking to, like, move through, you know? Yes.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you guys did the research on this, because.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: I am no expert on this subject.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: On the pop culture stuff?
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: No, actually, I know a lot more on the pop
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: culture stuff, but historically speaking, I guess I know a
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: cursory amount, but it's interesting to hear this data that
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: you've brought forward.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: And like, Force ghosts are nice. Mufasa ghost is nice.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Raiders of the Lost Ark ghosts are... not nice but
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: like they have just a very they're like ellen degeneres
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: you just can't look at them or they'll fucking melt
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: your face off that's their that's their one rule yeah
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: they're like j-lo yeah yeah sure they're not super nice
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: but um i don't know or maybe they would have
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: just melted the nazis face off either either way i
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: think good.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah ghosts or like communication with some sort of supernatural
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: force is such a part of the hero's journey. And like, uh,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the mythological framework of, you know, the plots that kind
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: of like all stories are now based on, you know?
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So I think that's why we see so much of it.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: If I had to guess. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. I
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: think so. Like that, you know, it goes back to
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Hamlet and like, I later on, I'll talk about, you know, there,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: there are ghost stories, like ghost encounters with like Pliny,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: the elder. And it sounds very similar to the things that,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the stories that, you know, your subjects tell on your show, Jack, like,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: you know, a ghost who's like throwing things and, you know,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: doing things and is like in someone's house. So it
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: seems like that's another thing. We did an episode about
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the gray alien, you know, the iconic gray alien face
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: and like how we got there. And one of the
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: things we found is like it, kind of kicked off
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: in the seventies or, you know, it kicked off at
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: a certain point and then began, like, you can like
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: see it kind of being designed by the collective unconsciousness
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: and like everything starts going in that direction. but they're
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: for a long time, like the design of alien sightings
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: were really stupid. Like didn't, didn't look like that. They
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: were like hairy or like one was like a giant
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: light switch with legs, you know? And so the fact
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: that ghosts have like always kind of had this similar
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: description from people who encounter them is, is interesting to me.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: It is interesting and cross cultural. And also, um, I'm
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: totally blanking on the name of this tribe, but, there
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: have been uncontacted tribes who were eventually contacted like within
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the last century that had very strong beliefs in ghosts,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: which is interesting to me that I'm, that it's like
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: not just culture spreading across.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: It's like self-generating. Yeah.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: It's like trying to tap into something that I think
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: we just, we feel innately as part of being alive.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Like the sensation of being alive is already kind of surreal.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: If you bother to like examine that, like to exist.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: And then to then go on, it's like ghosts are
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: also kind of like a way for us to make,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: I think also it's a way for us to make
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: sense of what can happen, what energies we leave behind.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: If we are sensitive to something that's slightly more intangible
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: than sort of what's empirically known. So all of those things,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: I think they all connect with something just so basic
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: or so essential to our lived experience that But, yeah, like, it's, like,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: kind of just found this very simple way to kind
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: of manifest itself in, like, this sort of paranormal afterlife.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's put our cards on the table, boys. Have
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: you seen or experienced a ghost? So, I have... When
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I was a kid, I found this thing... of gold
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: coins in like the dirt outside of this. So I
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: remember this from, uh, listening to one of your shows
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: where like somebody was, had like kind of a spirit guide,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: imaginary friend when they were exploring this Creek area by
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: their house. And, um, I did always have like this
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: memory of this experience where, uh, I found these like
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: gold coins, uh, and then like heard this like drum
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: that was like deep in the ocean or deep in
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: the forest that like, huh. I, it was like this weird,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: uncanny experience. And I just like chose not to go
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: into the forest. And yeah, It was like at this
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: time I lived, so I had a creek going by
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: my house and that was this creek that like went
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: into the forest. And there was like the house right
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: next to our house was a guy who had like
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: killed himself a couple of years before he we moved
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: in and like, there was all this lore about like
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the last person to see him alive. And then like,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I was telling that story to my friend while we
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: were playing basketball on the side of our, uh, uh,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: like of my house. And like the light started flickering,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: like whenever we would talk about it and it like fucking,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: I've never run inside like faster. So those are two
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: experiences that I had when I was young that were
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: like kind of adjacent to, Um, that I've always, that
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: like hearing it from anyone else, I'd be like, okay,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: that's not, that's not evidence of a haunting. Um, but
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: it did have kind of this weird feeling to me
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: at the time that like, no, this, this seems weird.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: This seems like something is coming from, uh, elsewhere. Yeah. Uh,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: not personally.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, like the closest was one time when I
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: was in Japan, like, at night I was walking with
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: my cousins and like a, like a family friend. We
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: were like on our way to get like ice cream
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: at a convenience store or something and like fireworks. So like,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: you know, I was like a little kid with like
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: my older cousins. And so the thing, the reason I'm dubious,
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: cause I'm not sure if they were fucking with me,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: but I also know them. They weren't the kind of
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: cousins that would fuck with me. Like I had cousins
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: that would, I knew like they were going to tease
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: the shit out of me because that's just, that was
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: like sort of, you know how it was. But these
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: weren't like, these were like my very like, nurturing, like
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: older cousins who like, you know, really saw me as
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: like a kid they looked out for. And I remember
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: walking down the, the, like just the street, like just
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: in like this neighborhood and like a suburb of Tokyo.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: And they kept saying like, like they kept looking behind
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: them and saying they thought someone was like following us,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: but there really wasn't. And they couldn't quite like, every
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: time we looked, there was no one there, but there
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: was just like this energy. that we all just kind
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: of felt and we had to just keep like we
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: just started running home. And it wasn't like a thing that, again,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: didn't feel truly like we anyone saw something or just
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: it was the feeling. But as a kid, I could
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: just tap into something that felt off about it.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: Something was off. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was the closest.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say like that.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: That felt like something that can be generated by a
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: bunch of kids being like, oh, shit, you know, and
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like five years old. But then also my family, though, too,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: like my uncle and my aunt have had similar things
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: where like a presence has like held them down and
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: they were unable to move. And in one instance, like
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: my step cousin, like warned my uncle about like not
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: going on a trip and he didn't listen. And the
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: thing held him down on his trip. Oh, and he
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: went to the hospital because he thought he was having
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: some kind of medical thing and they did a full
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: body scan, neurological, everything and like nothing was wrong.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, for me, I go, ah, it's probably
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: psychosomatic or whatever.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: But there's also, there's something too, like when I listened
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: to like the episodes of your show too, where I
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: also do believe that like, for me, I almost see
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: the paranormal stuff as almost being like when lightning strikes,
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: it's like you actually need a collection of the right
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: things for this moment of like paranormal expression to occur
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: in front of you.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: And I mean, sleep paralysis, that is one of those
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: things where like, there is this explanation for that, but
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: there are, it's one of those things that like entry
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: level skeptic, easy to write off. Cause you're like, Oh,
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: it's sleep paralysis. But then when you kind of dig
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: further into that and, um, and look at some very
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: strange cases through history, it becomes a little more muddy.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: And then, then you kind of come back and you're like,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: maybe this is, uh, yeah. Like, And there's a, that
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: is one of those things where there's so many records
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: of it. Like there are, cause there's, there's common sightings
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: people have in sleep paralysis. Uh, there's of course the
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: hat man, a lot of people see, um, that's kind
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: of like a more recent thing, but I think people
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: have seen versions of them throughout history. Um, but then
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: the old hag is the other ones like this old woman.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: And that one is very old nightmare describes this woman.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Like she was called the nightmare. So when you would
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: have a nightmare, it's referring to that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: This is very old.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: But basically, almost all cultures across the world have some
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: version of that. Seeing this woman and being held down,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: which I think is so strange. There's all of these records,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: anthropological records of woodsmen in Canada who were like, I
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: think it was in the 1800s, early 1800s, who came
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: over from Sweden. Sorry, I'm going off the dome, but
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: These European immigrants to Canada that were there for logging.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: And it was happening to all of them. And they
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: were coming into the infirmary at the log camp. That's
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: why these records exist. And they were reporting of getting hagged,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: they're calling it.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: And it was happening to all of them. Encountering that
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: same figure. And then.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: After the Vietnam War, we let in all of these
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Hmong refugees from Laos and Cambodia. Because the Hmong people
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: were helping... United States during the war. We gave them
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: refugee status. Anyway, when they arrived, they started dying mysteriously
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: in their sleep, like hundreds of them. And when people
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: would interview the family members or people who survived these
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: close calls in their sleep, they would say that this
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: was because of this spirit called Dacho, I believe was
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the name.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: And it basically....
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: The same thing as, uh, the old hag, like this,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: this female spirit that comes at night, but because they're
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: in America in a way from like their original village, they,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: they weren't able to do these rituals that would normally
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: protect themselves from the spirit.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And that's what they were saying was happening.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Um, But these people, I believe it was like 125
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: people died from this. And that went on to inspire
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of different movies. There was like a big
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: article about this. And to me, this is one of
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: those things where like it was investigated. There wasn't a
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: I didn't think there was a satisfying explanation. Granted, I'm
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: not a doctor, but it was one of those things.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Where they didn't find the nightmare on the CAT scan.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Well, they said that these people were dying of like
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: basically a heart attack. something close to it and then
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: they called it like unexplained nocturnal death phenomena or some
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: shit yes unexpected nocturnal death syndrome yes yes yes where
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: we're like that's the explanation um i think that's so
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: strange you know it's like like where you just get
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: something like an all-encompassing term but you don't really even
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: know why that happens.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: And it just allows you to just like Put it away.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: You know? It allows you to be like, yeah, we
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: had doctors look at this. It's a thing that happens.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: And just make it clinical and dry and, like, under
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: the lights of a hospital. Why do these people suddenly
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: die at night? It's because it has suddenly died at
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: night syndrome. Exactly. Exactly. Let's just stop. I think the
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: thing that, like, happens a lot in your show is, like,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: people will say, I didn't tell anyone because... right like
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: before if someone told me that story like i even
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: feel self-conscious about like talking about that i actually have
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: a thing that happened more recently that i like i'm
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: just not talking about because like i don't talk about
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: my shit on this show yeah yeah like i i
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: would have thought that person had like mental health issues
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: or something if they told me the story that i
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: had happened to me that relationship between hauntings and like
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: mental like pathologies. Um, it's in a lot of movies.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: First of all, it's kind of the central theme of
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: the shining, uh, according to Kubrick, he's like, no, it's just,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: what if ghosts drove you crazy? Yeah. What, what the
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: shining is about. But, uh, I think everyone's like had
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: that thought when you go back through history and see
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: like religious miracles and witch burnings and ghost sightings. It's like, well,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: some of those people were probably hungry to the point
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: of hallucination or like accidentally tripping on ergot or like
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: mentally ill and they just didn't know what mental illness is.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: But listening to the stories on your show, you kind
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of like force a further question of like, what if
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: what we describe as mental illness is actually just our
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: way of dismissing people or experiences that we don't want
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: to deal with or don't want to be real. You
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Because they'll, like, fuck up our day.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: It could be a mix of both sometimes, too, you know?
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Or we think we have something figured out, but there
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: might be an element of it that we don't quite understand,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: you know? And yeah, a lot of stuff through history,
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: there is some sort of explanation for it. I think
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: a statistic, this is about something else, but a statistic
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I just saw is, I think it was like a
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: cardinal in Mexico City or something. Somebody in the Catholic
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Church said that one in 10,000 cases of supposed exorcisms
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: are valid. So, like, only one in 10,000. The rest
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: are cases of mental illness.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Which is a very small percentage. I thought that was
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: surprising coming from a Catholic priest. But I find that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: interesting and it's like, okay, so most, pretty much all
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: of the time, people think there's a demon or possession,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: it's mental illness or some other explanation. But even just
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: like that tiny, tiny fraction of a percent being real,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: it's very unsettling, you know?
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: And it's so small.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: That you could just as easily write the whole thing
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: off because so small you might not even know when
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: it is real.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: Do you think there's like an, like, What the subtleties
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: are between people who see more.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: benevolent kind ghosts.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Versus like the freaky demon type ghosts. Because like in
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: your show, it's so interesting, like where there is like,
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: you know, that ghost box episode where, you know, the,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: the woman like her, her former father-in-law was like speaking
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: directly through this ghost box thing and like connecting her.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: And that felt more of like a, you know, you're
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: talking to a loved one or the, uh, what was
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: the one, uh, with the tree house or the kid
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: in San Diego who had like a ghost homie that he,
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: that was.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Like an imaginary friend, but like more, yeah, real. And like,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: but very benevolent. And like, there was just these, these
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: spirits that it used to be a hunting lodge, their house.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: And like, there were just these like spirits who would
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: like come in and look in on them. And everybody
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: seemed pretty chill other than they would like open all
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the cabinets every once in a while. Yeah.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: So it's like, I'm always curious, like, cause I feel
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: like they're each manifestation also kind of, I think speaks
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: to sort of a vision of the afterlife that kind
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: of rests with the person experiencing or just, or the
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: way it maybe expresses itself. Like on one side you see, like,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I understand how a plantation could be spooky because a
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: lot of dark should be feel like there's a karmic
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: debt there that's waiting to just ooze out somehow into
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: any dimension possible. But then these other ones that are
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: more about, feel like wisdom, like attained wisdom from an
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: ancestor or something that just comes through in the form
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: of like this nice person who's like, oh, don't eat
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: those berries.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Let's be careful over here as we like frolic. It's
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: just interesting to see.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: I guess that's why I'm like, to me, it feels
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: like these paranormal moments really happen just like in these
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: very specific ways based on kind of the context and
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: sort of how we're choosing to see things.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: The afterlife here. Let's take a quick break and we'll
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: come back. And we, I, yeah, I want to just
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: like kind of do a, a ghost survey. of like
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: the all the ghosts that you've encountered like what how
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: what's the breakdown of like nice versus not nice urban
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: versus rural like what what they look like versus agrarian
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah uh we'll be right back And we're back.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you've talked to, you've probably heard more stories
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: from seemingly sane people who have encountered ghosts and hauntings
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: than anyone I'm aware of. So I feel like on
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: this episode where we're looking at the icon, the diva
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: that is ghosts, we should probably... talk about, you know, what, just, like,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: take a survey from your experience of, like, what the
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: breakdown is, because, yeah, like, movies are actually more of
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: a even split than I would have thought between, like,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Mean Ghost versus Nice Ghosts, when you, like, kind of
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: take a look back, even movies like Ghostbusters have, you know...
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: fun ghosts like Slimer and stuff like that. So in
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: your experience, first of all, have you encountered people who've
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: had encounters with Slimer? But second of all, what would
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: you say that breakdown is with nice versus hostile? What
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: would you say that breakdown is?
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: That, I'm trying to think of an actual breakdown of that.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing, is that part of the reason
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: I don't delineate between the various paranormal characters and categories
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: on the show is because I'm not sure what is what.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: And like, I personally think the lines could be blurry sometimes.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: And I think often if multiple people look at the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: same story, they might have different explanations for both for
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: the same story rather. With, like, ghosts, you mentioned the
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: ghost box. Like, that guy was a medium. When I
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: hear stories like that, I wonder, like, my instinct is
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: that he's contacting something on, like, a completely different plane,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: whereas I think a ghost is something that exists here
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: on our physical plane, you know? Yeah.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Like, they're trapped in a place almost, like, on loop,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That story, just really quickly for people who haven't listened,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: is you interviewed somebody who was like a professional ghost skeptic, essentially. Yeah.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: And she quit the industry at one point and people
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: were wondering why and you finally like had the conversation. Yeah.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: about the event that made her quit. And it was
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: like encountering this guy who again, like would have, it
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: would have been the sort of person I would just
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: dismiss as like somebody who like, you know, goes around
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: to ghost conventions and like has this box.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: I think Jack described every photo of him as having
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: some kind of smoky, hazy back. He was really like,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: he was like, bro, I'm always in the fucking, in
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: the mist.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: No, that was an episode where it was like intentionally
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: diving into the world of the paranormal that I, typically
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: avoid or like Otherworld was created as an antidote to.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that guy was a hilarious character.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: But he had this device and talked to it and
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: it would bring back voices or answers from some other dimension.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: It was like an advanced spirit box. You'll see those
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: on TikTok where it's basically a radio scanner. I mean,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: I think those are kind of stupid where it's just
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: like zipping between channels and people are finding you can
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: kind of like trick.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Yourself into hearing the noise or interpreting it. Those are
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: just funny.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: But this was, like, a more advanced version of it,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: at least the way the lady described it. It was, like,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: working in a much more precise and different way than those.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: But I think, like, honestly, most of the time, when
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: I think of a ghost and the ones I encounter
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: on my podcast, most of them are mischievous at the worst. And, like,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: borderline benevolent or neutral. I think the scary stuff, at
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: least me, this is just me speaking, when it gets
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to stuff that is frightening, actively trying to harm somebody,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I think of that as more, I guess, demonic. Not
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: necessarily saying that I believe in demons, but Like, I
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: don't think of that as like a human being, the
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: soul of a human being, right? It doesn't seem, and
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: it's never, in those stories, it's never seemed like a person, right?
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: It's more of a thing doing it. Does that make sense?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's, that's the thing. That's also what the conjuring,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: the conjuring universe. Yeah. Like the, the, uh, evil ghosts,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the conjuring movies are the number one. That's like purely
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: evil ghost movies in terms of box office. And like they, yeah,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: I guess, you know, we do have one coming out
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: soon that you're joking before the show. Uh, it's a,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: it's a ghost that had chains. Um, really? Yeah.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: And he, I don't want to spoil it, but like he,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: chokes a lady, um, that I interviewed. And it was
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: like this brief, really frightening encounter.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Damn.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: So that was, it's interesting. I don't want to spoil
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: this episode. She sees another one later. She sees another
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: one later, uh, that wasn't him. But to me, it
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: was almost like she was tapping in and witnessing like
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: an event that happened and seeing both sides of it,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: like seeing from two different perspectives. Yeah. which is, it
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: gets into another thing where it's like, it all depends
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: on how you even think of ghosts.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Right.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Like, like, and sometimes I, I think maybe are we
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: just tapping in and being able to pick up on
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: something that's like on loop, you know, like, right.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Right. Experience. And that's just always there. Right.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Cause I think that was interesting in the ghost box episode,
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: even the subject of your episode was talking about how like,
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: even in thinking about the paranormal, there's already a discussion
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: about like quantum mechanics and time. And if like, if
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: these spirits are even experiencing a form of linear time
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: that human, like the living don't. So it's, again, it's
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: so interesting to just even think of like what all
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: of the sort of ramifications are. But I think, yeah,
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: to your point, it's hard to know sort of like
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: what the intent is or if like, if, if all
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: ghosts are good or if there's one way to define it,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: because I think the one thing I just keep coming
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: back to over and over is that it's usually a,
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: like a collection of these things come together and somehow
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: a person has access to a sensation that they previously
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: did not. And I think about that, like my dad,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: you know, my grandmother passed away like, you know, a
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: few years ago, but like in, he wasn't really like
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: the grief the grieving process wasn't really happening until like
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: in this one very specific moment where like he felt
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: her say something to him like at this event and
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: he just broke down on the spot but he said
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: is very surreal that where i'm also like part of
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: me is like well i felt like you had a
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: lot of pent-up emotion or these other things but i
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: also feel like it was a collection of a lot
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: of like, he was searching for something psychoemotionally and then
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: being kind of open to receiving something, whether that was
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: to allow himself to grieve in.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: A way that he didn't know.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: But it, but to him, it was very much connected
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: to this moment where like he was like sort of visited.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: And I think that's extremely common. Yeah.
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: And like, that's where I'm like, that's where I'm like,
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: I've really, and to me, like, I'm like, that is
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: believable because I do, I do feel that there is
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: something energetically, um, It's probably not the thing of Casper
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: or whatever, but we do have these moments where we're clearly,
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: our senses are adapting to something not quite what we're
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: used to.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: And that's gotta be the number one submission we get
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: is people who are sending things from immediately after a
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: loved one died and believing that they're contacted through signs
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: or something like that. Oftentimes, and it's very complicated for
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: me because I'm like, you feel really bad A lot
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: of times I'll read a story back. I don't know
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: if that was paranormal, but yeah, I'm glad that you
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: found peace.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Sure. Sure.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: Like your confirmation bias really helped out.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: You know, because like I've seen that with my own
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: loved ones when somebody has passed.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: But then occasionally it's occasionally there are really, really big ones.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: We have another story coming up. I'll spoil this a
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: little bit. Just as a treat for your audience. I
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: don't know when this will come out, but this one
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: was really cool. This guy whose dad died showed up
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: like full form apparition while he was awake and held
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: out a blue drink and had him and he's like,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: drink this. You're going to feel better. And gives him
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: this blue drink. Wait, does somebody give a drink in
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Star Wars?
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: No, but they drink blue milk. Yeah, they drink blue milk.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: At the cantina.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, oh, I thought you meant like a ghost. There's
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: a ghost scene that I forgot. Oh, thank God.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: This guy's just describing a scene from Star Wars. He
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: had big pointy ears and he's like, drink this, you will.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: It's crazy. And then he gave him a piggyback ride
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: through the swamp.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: No, but his dad gives him this like electric blue
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: drink and was like, drink this. And he drinks it
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: and he does feel better. It's a really trippy story.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I love this one.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: It'll eventually come out. Sure.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: But yeah, and it literally did help him grieve. He's
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: not sure if it was the drink or being able
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: to talk to his dad again. But like occasionally you'll
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: get one that's like a big standout. Normally it's not
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: that extreme.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It's just very common for people going through grief to
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: have like some connection with the loved one that they've
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: just lost. Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I know a common thing is like receiving like a
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: communication through dreams which i i don't write off i
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: actually think it's kind of cool yeah and uh from
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: like immediately after death and um i mean i could
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: go on and on with that.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I will ask, I mean, because you have said
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: that like you kind of came into this podcast sort
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: of wanting to believe, but it sounds like your description
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: of how the process worked for you is like you,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: each one you're like hoping that this is going to
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: be the one that proves to you or, you know,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: not necessarily hoping, but like interested to see if it's
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: going to be like, where are you in your kind
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: of overall belief of like, you know, what's real? And like,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: have you seen and heard things that have made you
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: believer where are you at.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: I think i've like gone post belief where it's just
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: like it's not even a belief or disbelief anymore i've
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: just like i encounter this so often i don't know
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: if the pendulum even swings anymore does that make sense
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: this most recent episode like it's more proof than i've
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: ever had for anything um like i watch a lot
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: of law and order classic and uh It's enough evidence
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: that we could probably take it to court and find
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: somebody guilty in the.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Court of law.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: If the district attorney is on point, at least. They
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: would at least take it to trial. But I'm so
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: used to not getting that that I sometimes feel silly
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: even trying. And then when we finally got it, it's
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: almost like I'm surprised at my lack of reaction. I
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: feel like I it hasn't quite sunk in with me.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: You know, like, encountering something that should really.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Alter my views, but I think there's almost, like, something
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: inside of me that's like, surely there's something I'm missing.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Even though I've gone through many steps of that where
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, but this, you know, and then I
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: check and it's true, you know? And what about this?
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: I've tried ruling a few things out, but I don't know.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: It's really interesting. So I think at a certain point
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: you just get like calloused over, not necessarily in a
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: bad way, but you kind of have to, to do
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: this every single day.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: But I guess on some level you also, because it's
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: so frequent, you're like, well, this is clearly part of
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: the human experience also. Like it's not that like every
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: person you're talking to is like, you're like, all right,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: let's see if this person, like how off they are.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: A lot of people are experiencing these things. And I
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: think just because of that, I think That's what interests me, right?
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Is that because I can't deny the sensations that these
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: people are experiencing on some level, and then people want
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: to explain away how that happens. But because of that,
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: I think that's what keeps me open to this idea
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: because I also feel that I've experienced that same thing too.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: You've had a family member pass and then these things happen.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: Whether or not that's coincidence, it just feels like there's
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: such an intensity of energy left over from a person
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: who you've had a relationship with while they're alive that
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: that energy, it has some other quality to it.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: And I think it maybe just manifests in these other ways.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: I actually, I'm probably a lot more of a believer
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: than I realize. I'm also extremely skeptical, but when I
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: encounter somebody that is like, and this is not so
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: often these days, but like somebody who's just like, I
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: don't believe in anything.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: It's all not real. A hundred percent. I'm like, you're
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: an idiot.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: Like, how could you possibly believe that? You know, I'm
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: not saying that like, what we think of an alien
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: or a ghost or whatever is literally true, exactly how
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: we think of it.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: But if you, if you look at like all of
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: the things that people experience right now that we consider
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: supernatural paranormal, like some of this will probably be figured
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: out one day. Um, there's definitely things we don't understand yet,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: you know? And like that stat you mentioned early on 58%
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: believe in ghosts. I actually haven't seen that one, but
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: I did see recently 60% of people who have had
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: a paranormal experience, which is more than the percent of
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: people who have broken a bone under the age of 65,
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: which I thought was really significant. Like more people have
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: had a paranormal experience than have broken a bone.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Under the age of 65. Right.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Hilarious asterisk because old people fall all the time. I'm like,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: why the 65? Like, oh, Yeah, because after a certain age,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: it's just, they're breaking bones.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: Jack, do you look at it as ghost or no
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: ghost or just.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: It's my favorite game show, by the way.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Hey, ghost or no ghost, or are you giving it
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: up to the vast ignorance of the collective human intelligence?
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I think I believe in ghosts. There's something, you know? Yeah.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I guess that's the thing.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, I acknowledge we don't know enough about
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: so many things that for that reason alone, I can't.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Just be unequivocal and be like, dude, guys, it's all bullshit.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: I'm just using ghost as the term, but there is something,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: and I think the ones that trip me out the
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: most is when I talk to people who vividly see
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: a crystal clear apparition, and what's interesting to me is
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: that when I talk to somebody who describes the clothing
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: of a different era, and the shock of seeing... the
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: the quality and construction of certain garments right like like
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: that always works me out where somebody will it confuses
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: them at first like they'll see like leather shoes and
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: um the stitching it's like at first they know something's
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: wrong with these shoes but then later on upon reflection
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: they're like oh those are like i was seeing handmade.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Leather shoes right The quality. Yeah. I was seeing quality
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: for the first time. You should have seen the hem.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: It didn't fall apart after one wash. No, literally. And
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: everybody reports.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Like heavy linen garments, like heavy pants, like the weave
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: on things being really thick. And you could tell, you know,
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: you could usually tell when somebody's making something up. It's
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: very easy for me to tell, but You could tell
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: when somebody's really experienced something, the fascination with things like that,
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: I always like hearing, you know, somebody who's really baffled
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: by seeing something like that. And it's usually so sudden
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: and quick, which is interesting to me.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: There are a couple of times in, uh, episodes of
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: your show where the people who witnessed something were like,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I do not have time for this right now. Oh,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: you know, I gotta go to work or something. Like
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: literally one of them was like a person who worked
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: at a movie theater who was like, I like, sorry, man,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I just like, don't have time. I feel like this
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: is a really busy night at work, which I think is,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Like to your point, Miles, about how it's like these
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: various things that need to all come together for there
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: to be a moment. I do feel like in America, like,
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: you know, where everything is so objective based. and like
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: we're you know just trying to not starve and like
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: have our job and like keep food on the on
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: the table that like that might be a thing that
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: makes us like not good at noticing things and in
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: the moment you know what i mean.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: And you mentioned noticing and you also mentioned urban versus
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: rural ghosts i don't get a lot of stories from
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: cities um or at least not from new york and
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: part of that might be just we have like a
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: huge california audience but Something I think about a lot is, like,
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I've lived in big cities before.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, L.A. is very quiet. It's different.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: But in New York, I feel like you could live
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: in New York and have a completely haunted apartment.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: And never notice. Yeah. Right.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Because, like, if you heard somebody speak your name, you'd
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, I have some crazy neighbor talking and, like,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The walls are so thin in this place. Yeah.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: You would never notice, like, the stuff that people would
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: normally view as a haunting. But, you know, if you're
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: in an isolated cabin where there's no other possible explanations
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: and stuff is happening, it's completely different. So I always wonder, like,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: how many places in New York are extremely haunted and
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: people just don't even notice this is happening around them?
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, my explanation for why movies tend to, like,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: happen and, like, scary movies tend to happen in rural
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: or suburban, you know, locations as opposed to urban is
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of the bad shit that
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: has been done in the country has been in rural settings.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: And so there's like this, you know, system of like
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: guilt and, you know, fear that's all like tied together.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, that's why Jason stocks camp crystal
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Lake and like, it doesn't make sense for Jason to
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: be in Manhattan for more than one movie. Um, Jason
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: goes to Manhattan. Yeah. Yeah. But I do, I do
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: also wonder, I do wonder if there, if that's also
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: part of like, you know, people noticing and people being like, well,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: this is a place where it's spooky because this is
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: like a place where like evil has been done like
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: a lot in this country. And so you're like in this,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: it's just because because it's kind of coded in our
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: unconscious as like a place of that evil has been
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: done then you're like more awake to that sort of
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: thing the uh whether it's actually happening or not like
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: that that feels like the sort of thing that would
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: make it more likely and then yeah the quiet probably
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: helps um i have heard people say like okay if
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: ghosts are real like why aren't hospitals just full of
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: them since that's where everybody dies yeah i feel like
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: i've heard people talk about yeah.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah if you talk to nurses like all of them
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: have crazy stories but it's such a fast-paced environment that
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: like usually uh they move on really quickly or same
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: thing as i was mentioning with the city like There's
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: usually room for some sort of explanation. You know, you
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: hear a weird noise, you hear a voice or like
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: something moves. You're like, oh, could have been like any
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: number of people who are here happening.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's so constantly beeps and hums and like
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: machines that sound like they're breathing. So how are you
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: going to notice that the room is breathing? Of course, though.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: But like all the other thing is, I would say
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: somebody like that. It's like, well, ghosts aren't don't necessarily
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: exist like where they died.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I also don't necessarily think of ghosts.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: As a spirit roaming around, necessarily. Like I said, it
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: could be an echo, or it could just be us
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: able to detect something that happened from before. I have
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: no idea. A lot of the explanations that exist to
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: write ghosts and paranormal haunting or the supernatural in general
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: don't really make much sense when you pick at them. Like, uh,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: I've probably brought up infrasound before when I've been on
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: the podcast. That's, that's something you've seen tossed, tossed around
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: a lot to explain haunted houses infrasound, like a, like a,
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: a sound wave, um, or like machine noise resonating at
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: a certain frequency that like could make the brain hallucinate.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: Right. Um, doesn't make any sense. Like, yeah, it gives
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you a feeling of dread. Yeah. I can, I can
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: understand that. Like, it's like, Oh, this is like a
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: spooky feeling. Um, but I don't think it's going to
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: make your brain see shit. Like, yeah. Yeah. Brian, the
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: editor points out that the myth busters tried to make
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: themselves see stuff with infrasound. It didn't work out.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: So I, I often like a thought experiment I do with,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: with things like that. It's like, okay, we live in
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: the most capitalist society in the world. uh, in history,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: if that existed, somebody would be able to replicate it
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: and charging money to make you see ghosts. Like if,
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: if infrasound could make you see a ghost, if anything
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: could make you see a ghost, it would be able
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: to be replicated and somebody would be using it to
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: make money.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: And I think I use that for like a lot.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: Of the paranormal, um, explanations people, people have, you know,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: the other thing I, um, I see is like black
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: mold or like mold, that could do a lot of
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: crazy stuff, but it's certainly not an explanation for like
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: everything that I encounter on my show. Um, what are
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: the other explanations for ghosts? Did you encounter any on your,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: in your research?
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean like, uh, you know, I, I think
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: like mental illness is like probably the one that you
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: hear them. That, that's the one that I, I feel
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: like is just everybody's default, right? It's just like, well,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: like they're going through something. Are you under a lot
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: of stress right now? You know, stuff like that.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: And it's just, And I will say stress can definitely
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: make you more prone to thinking something, small.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Things are happening around you.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I noticed that myself, like when I'm stressed, I see
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: things out of the corner of my eye or everybody's
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: had that thing where like the laundry sitting on your chair,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: like everybody has like the laundry chair in their room
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: or like the shit where you put stuff that you
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: don't want to put away. Like out of the corner
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: of your eye, you see somebody like... what looks like
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: a person standing there. And then you realize it's a
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: lamp with a jacket on it. Yeah.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Our brain is designed to like find faces and like
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: patterns and things. So like I, I do, um, here,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: let's take one more break. We'll come back. Absolutely. And
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: we're back. We're back. And yeah, I do, because something
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: that comes up in a couple of your episodes is
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: this idea that people who are going through grief or,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: you know, going through something very difficult, difficult emotions, you know,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: the Under the Bayou story is about somebody who has just, like,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: had their significant other, like, try to kill them. And
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: then they move out of that situation into this house
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: and suddenly are experiencing all these hauntings. And that, yeah,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I think that like ties into this idea of like,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: rather than just using the, oh, they're going through something
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: as a means to dismiss it. It's like, or that
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: makes them able to. And like, Miles, I really liked
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: what you were saying about like grief and being connected
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: with a loved one. Like it, it reminds me of
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: like how the body started, like during childbirth, the body
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: can do like all these amazing things that would seem
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: like science fiction in any other circumstance. But it's at
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: this moment of like the craziest, like part, the beginning
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: of life. And like, I feel like the connection that
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: we have to like people when they pass away is
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: like another thing where if you're not actively experiencing it
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: and witnessing it, it like doesn't, make sense that you
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: could have that, but it's like these very specific circumstances
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: and conditions that people can be going through that make them,
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: that open them up to these experiences. Yeah.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: And I think of it a little bit like there
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: is the pattern. It's not always the case, but, you know,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: people who are going through a lot or have gone
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: through a lot that experience things and In those cases,
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: I kind of think of it as, like, everybody has
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: a certain amount of life force, you know?
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Or, like, your aura. Yeah. Right?
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: And, like, there are times where you have a lot
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: of it in your life. And that aura might be, like,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: huge and beaming out of you when you're crushing it.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: But then there's... I think everybody has times where there's, like,
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: nothing there. And they have very low life force. I
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: think that's, like, maybe a time where you're, like, vulnerable
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: for bad things to happen. happen or to witness the
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: the darker side of this um this is just like
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: my anecdotal yeah observations of based on stories and obviously
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: there are so many different sets of belief that beliefs
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: that exist similar to that it's not like something i
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: came up with like amalgamation of a lot of existing beliefs.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah this is like the foundational experience of humanity is
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: like having a loved one who or you know having
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: the experience of someone who once had life and there
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: is no more life. And it just like, doesn't make sense,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: you know, and having to explain that.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: And that's why I, uh, am not personally scared. I
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: thought when I started making this show, I was like, uh,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: like this, I feel like I'm inviting this into my life. Um,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: and that I would open myself up to like darkness
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: or whatever. My grandma definitely thought that, but.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: To me, I'm like, Oh yeah, don't, don't mess around
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: with that.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't let this stuff kind of like break
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: my barrier, uh, And I always try to, like, maintain,
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: take care of myself and maintain, like, I guess, like,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: a strong life.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: Force, right?
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Like, that sounds kind of corny saying that, but.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Right. And you're doing that with Simple Greens, right? Yeah, right. Exactly.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: That's G1. We've got to shut up the sponsors. We're
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: doing that ad break. Yes, exactly. And it's a factor
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: for you. Keeps me regular.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: But, and for that reason, like, To an extent, I, like,
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: genuinely don't believe this stuff can mess with me. I
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: don't know if that's, like, corny, but, like, we moved into,
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: we last year lived part-time in a place that, like,
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: all the neighbors said were haunted, was haunted. And I, like,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: literally laughed when they told me that. I'm like, that's
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: not haunted. And I just kind of, like, stuck with
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: that the entire time. And I'm like, I don't feel it.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's haunted. Apparently, the people who lived
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: there before us moved out because of the haunting, and
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: they had mediums come to get rid of the haunting,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: and the mediums left, having not completed it, because they
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: got in, like, a blowout fight. And it's funny, I
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: was like, when the people would tell me about this,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I was, like, completely writing it off, just like, okay, like,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: you guys are silly, acting as if I'm not the
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: host of a paranormal podcast. My entire livelihood exists on
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: this stuff. But, for my personal life, it was a
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: mix of like, I think just brushing it away from
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: my own sanity, but also genuinely believing, uh, that I
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: can't be harmed by it. I think that's like an
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: important thing that everybody should, uh, should remind themselves of
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: or practice. Right. Um, I'm telling you all this. I'm
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: giving you an answer to a question you did not ask.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: How do you protect yourself from the ghost? RIP to
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: everyone killed by the gods for their hubris. But I'm different.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: And better. Maybe even better than the gods. I don't know.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: I think it is like... I guess we are starting
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: to talk about people who are going through.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Who are going through shit. Going
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: through stuff. And like.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: That's people who often experience scary stuff. It almost seems
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: like that attracts... negative entities to them right yeah yeah
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: people experiencing grief um i mean that's a lot of
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: crazy ouija board stuff yeah.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: A lot of that's what we talked about the last
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: time you were on was a lot of ouija board
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: stuff and how like this parker brothers game that like
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: it is actually like you talk to people who are
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: experiencing this and they're like do not fuck with me
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: it's sold next to monopoly and yet uh it's a
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: thing that like people who have experienced this are just
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: like yeah yeah no that's really like do not fuck
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: with me no i know and uh i'm.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: I know the number one and number two, they would
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: debate who is, which is which, but, uh, collectors of
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: the boards and planchettes in it, in the world. So
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: I know the, the top collectors of these things. And, um,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: both of them are like, yeah, it's not real. Like
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: these aren't real. Uh, this is just, uh, the, the
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: ideomotor effect, like your hands, like moving subtly, like subconsciously.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Which I think is so interesting anyway. Like, I think
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: that's super interesting anyways. that our unconscious can write out
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: a sentence without us realizing it.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah. And maybe that's the case. Maybe there's some
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: of that, right? I'm open to that.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say that's not the case, but
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: I have encountered so many people who have had their
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: lives ruined after using this, and stuff happening afterwards not
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: related to the board.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: That is the main thing.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: It's like, sure, Go ahead and explain how the hands
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: are moving and the way they are on the board.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: That isn't really the part that freaks me out. It's
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: usually after somebody uses it that everything goes to shit.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: That's what freaks me out. I would never use one.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: That feels like the kind of thing my Lutheran school
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: teacher should have played for us because we were scolded
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: in Lutheran school about Ouija.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Boards because that was against the second commandment.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: But I feel like that's the kind of thing I
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: feel like my teacher would have been like, and you know,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: it's not even about playing with it it's that once
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: you do you're opening yourself.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Up for damnation crazy and also the other reason i
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: kind of just don't i'm not satisfied with the explanation
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: presented is like sure the average person isn't very creative
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: and some of the stuff reported like that i've encountered
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: like that these entities are saying is like very complex
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and elaborate and like um beyond what like a person
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: could make up.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: And, um, a lot of the, the stuff that freaks
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: me out is that like, oftentimes it's for a while
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: at somebody, uh, the board is like pretending to be
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: the spirit of a loved one. And then we'll usually
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: like start to act bizarre and like reveal itself to
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: be tricking the person and like taunting them.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Right. Is so weird. Like posing as somebody's dead grandpa.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: And then not just like, changing or getting stuff wrong,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: but like slowly winking at them.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: It happens a lot. And really, that really freaks me out. Um, and,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: and also people who have asked the board things that
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: even they don't know and like would go check. It's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: very strange to me. And I guess that's where I
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: land on a lot of stuff is, um, most people
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: aren't very creative. So, common explanation is, like, oh, the
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: person's just making it up, or imagining it. It's like, damn,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: they just wrote, like, one of the best horror stories
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: of all time. Yeah, literally, read, like, amateur novels.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: Go on Amazon.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I'm ruining this, but I would otherwise say, go on
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Amazon and, like, look at, like, one-star review books and
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: see the quality of story these people are coming up with.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: Most people aren't very creative. So, and their imaginations aren't
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: that strong. So, like, that's the other thing that puzzles
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: me is some of these things are, are so strange.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's, um, it's hard to completely write off.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: Is there a movie ghost afterlife that resonates particularly with you? Like, uh, that,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: that scene, like a ghost is afterlife by way of like,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: you have to like do a training montage to be
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: able to like, move things um and but i think
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: they can kind of roam free although they have like
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: there's the subway ghost who is like obsessed with the
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: subway because that's where he died and so like there
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: there's some of that beetle juice everybody's like stuck in
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: specific locations and they are stuck with whatever killed them
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: being like the injury that they had ghostbusters is like
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: kind of all over the map.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Well i'll point out this is an answer this does
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: not answer the question but You know, the Ghostbusters was
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: actually based on the diaries of Dan Aykroyd's family. He's
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: like a fourth-generation spiritualist.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: He's huge into that shit, yeah.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's... His whole family, that's, like, their entire thing.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: It just so happens he became an actor and comedian.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: Oh, is that why he's, like, so into Crystal Skull vodka? Like,
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: that's why the vodka's even, like, Crystal Skull? That, like,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: now makes sense. That might just be bag chasing. Well, even, like,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: to make it the thing, right? Because everyone, like, the
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: woo-woo world loves the Crystal Skulls and things like that.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: So part of me was, like, I wonder if it's, like,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: it's just, like, every part of him is always kind
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: of thinking about the supernatural. I, uh, I was actually
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: supposed to interview him this month, but, um, yeah, his
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: family is like full of so many like rules and
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: like esoteric things that like, it's kind of hard to
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: keep straight.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Um, and maybe that's, those are the spiritualists.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: And that's like a lot of what we think of, um,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: in America comes from like the spiritualists in the 1800s. Um,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: that's like the Ouija board kind of comes from that. Like,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: I think it was originally the talking board was the
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: first version of that. There's roots of different cultures using
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: similar things even before that. But a lot of our
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: modern version of ghosts come from the spiritualists. I don't
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: know any movie that I could think of that I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: think accurately... captures it i haven't seen like uh the
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: full conjuring series or um what's the insidious that's like
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: the astral projection movie right right i haven't seen i
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: haven't seen that in a long time i just might
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: be worth a watch for this episode and first of
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: all i was shocked by how conservative it is and
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: this is that might be a good place to close
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: out because i like they're going into the explanation for
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: the ghost in the house in the first conjuring movie.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: And they're like, she's the sister of one of the
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Salem witches in the universe. The people who burned the
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: witches were correct. Yeah. And that is funny. And like
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: also Catholic church is correct. And so like, I think, um,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: what I like about other world is that it makes
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: room for people who aren't conservatives to like believe and
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: like be interested in ghosts. Whereas I think for so long,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: like the whole world of like paranormal and stuff like
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: that was like, well, you're going to have to call,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: you're going to have to call your Catholic priest or,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And so that, that, that
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: is what I like. It's like, Oh, people, like me
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: who are experiencing this and be like, yeah, man, I'd
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: usually be like, this is crazy or like, I don't
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: believe in this stuff. I believe in science. Uh, but
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: then it happened to me, you know?
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: Um, so I'm trying to think of good movie examples
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: for you guys, but, um, I feel like a lot
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: of the movies don't get into like the lore of
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: like how the ghosts work, you know?
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's just, you're purely dealing with the scary
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: side of it. Um, accepted as is. Yeah.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think if, if it, My personal beliefs,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: I feel like if I were to try to make
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: sense of it, I feel like the world we're in
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: is small in comparison to like the larger universe that
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: they exist within, if that makes sense. You know, it's
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: not like necessarily they're momentarily coming into ours. It's that
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: we're momentarily able to see into theirs.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: There's more of them than us. I mean, there's been more,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: there's more dead people than alive people.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: So, well, let's fact check that. I don't want to,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: I don't want to make that big of a claim.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: We don't know that for sure, but it sounds right.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: It sounds right. All right. Well, I have a bunch
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: of like pop culture stuff and like the history of
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: the bed sheet ghost, but I'm going to say one
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: of those.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: I would love to see a classic bed sheet. I
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: would love to get a story submission of that is
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: like a classic bed sheet ghost.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Is there an explanation? yeah it so it was burial
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: shrouds basically it started with like people used to be
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: buried in sheets and then the way to be like
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: i'm a dead person who's risen from the dead was
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: to have i got that sheet on yeah yeah cool goes.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: Classic i would love that i would love to see
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: i would love to get the email of somebody seeing
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: that i would love to see um just like a
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: skeleton like walking walking skeleton smoking a cigar yeah like
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: um Like, like basically I would love people to see
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: the real version of Halloween decorations. Oh, one that I've
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: wanted for a long time is somebody seeing a disembodied
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: laughing jack-o'-lantern, like a jack-o'-lantern.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: Imagine if that happened to you. We're talking about being
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: embarrassed by a ghost. Imagine being chased by a laughing jack-o'-lantern.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. You definitely don't tell anybody about that because
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: it sounds so goofy. That might be happening to everyone
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: and nobody's telling anybody about that shit.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: Talking about if we had the technology to replicate some
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: of this, that's what I would end up doing. Figuring
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: out how to project a laughing jack-o'-lantern in a convincing
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: way to mess with people. They would never tell anybody
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: That's yeah. I think boomer old, our boomer parents probably
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: really good for that one.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: Frankenstein would be good to see just like the classic.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: Frankenstein's so funny to me as like a scary character.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: And he just like kind of bonks people on the head.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: He's just like, Whoa, I was just like an idiot. Exactly.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: I will. Yeah.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: Like I will say the one thing I never hear
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: about is anything vampire adjacent. I've never even gotten, I
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: don't think I've gotten a single email. Anything close to it.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we just created that out of sheer horniness.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: More than anything.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: And I've heard so many weird things. Uncategorizable things. Never
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: anything Dracula related. There might be a werewolf.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Dog men.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: That's a very common thing. The Michigan dog man. I
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: have an episode about this. A lot of people who
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: see dog or wolf-human hybrids. Not necessarily, like, a person
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: changing into one, but that is something that I have
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: enough that it's, like, too many. Like, people are kind
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: of sending them in. I'm like, man, we did an
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: episode about this. Like, I don't know if we can
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: do another for a while. I have a folder of
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: dogman or, like, wolfman stories, but it's very common, and
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's silly.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: I've seen.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of stories of people seeing a
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: huge wolf standing on its hind legs or running on
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: its hind legs.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: It's really weird. Okay, two quick questions that tie into
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: what I'll be talking about in the notebook dump. Do
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: people describe the ghosts as being transparent or kind of see-through?
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: It's a range.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: I'd say the most common is people seeing a static,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: almost like a TV static.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: Black outline of a person.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: Um, or a lot of times that happens where it's like,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: it's already dark and they see something darker than the
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: darkness in the room.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: And it's like TV static. That is very common.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: A lot of people refer to that as like shadow people. Um,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: but I'd say that's the number one. And then there
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: are some where it's like, um, they can make out
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: most of the person, but not the face. Um, and
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: then there are some that's like transparent. And then in
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: rare cases, it's just like a straight up person. That's
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: what I find the most interesting. Um, and going back
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: to the New York thing too, like, uh, how often,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, dude, so many people that you don't, that
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: you never talk to. And you just assume like, oh,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: that person's doing some weird shit. Like for me, I
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: won't get into my own story's, because they're not good,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: but like my mom lived in a, a house that
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: was haunted. Um, she, she experienced a lot of stuff.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: I was there sometimes this was when I was like a,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: in college. Right. And she was dating somebody I didn't like.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: So I didn't like being there, but, um, I experienced
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: what I later learned was paranormal stuff. But at the
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: time you don't know that it's paranormal. Like I, um,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: I would hear somebody in the kitchen at night, every
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: night making food. And, um, later on learned that it
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: was like a thing that happens in this house and
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: everybody's so scared of it that nobody goes into the
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: kitchen at night. Um, there was a few other things,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: but it's like one of those, I have a reference
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: point to understanding it because I've experienced that where it's like, Oh,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: when it happened, it wasn't spooky. Um, it was really
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: normal and it happened all the time. And, uh, I
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: would have never, uh, thought that it was paranormal whatsoever
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: until later when i realized there wasn't an explanation for
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: it and that nobody was in there the same with
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: people who see a full apparition they just at first
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: think like oh my god there's a fucking weird guy
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: in my apartment right and then like in the split
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: second after they're like wait why do his clothes look
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: like that um and then then usually the person will
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: like disappear or they'll run out of the room that's
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: when they realize something else had taken place but at
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: first they think it's an intruder right because it's so
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: clear um and and so similar to waking life that
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: is really interesting to me right like like these things
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: that we could possibly have missed you know right One.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: Thing that, uh, last question is I feel like people
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: usually see them walking on the ground, like that they
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: don't float as much as like ghosts in movies always float.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: And when I was looking into the history of like
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: where that came from, it's just this like one very
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: popular special effect called Pepper's Ghost. A lot of like
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: what we know of ghosts is like from stage plays
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: that had ghosts. That's why like, they used to put
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: Hamlet's ghost dad, uh, not to be confused with the
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: Bill Cosby one in, uh, like military regalia. And people
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: were like, well, who's that alive guy. And so then
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: they put the like white sheet over his head and
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: they were like, ah, it's a fucking ghost. But one
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: of the ways, like they had this kind of, it's
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: the same technology that they use to like make Tupac
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: come back and like do the Coachella concert. Um, but
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: it's really hard to project it exactly onto the same
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: like level as the other actors who are on stage.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: And so that's where the ghost floating came from, which
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: makes sense. Like when you hear all the ghost encounters,
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: people are usually like, uh, it was like walking along
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: or like I heard footsteps and stuff like that. So like,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: the floating-ness was just kind of a figment of the
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: special effects that were used.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: Now that you mention it, I can't recall a story
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: we've gotten of a floating ghost. They're usually standing or
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: sitting somewhere, and somewhere that makes sense for them to be.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's obviously exceptions to that, but those usually
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: aren't like ghosts that people are seeing. Um, but yeah, usually,
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: usually when people are seeing like a human ghost, it's, um, standing, sitting,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: doing something that makes sense.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: Um, freaky weird. It's fun talking about this. I, what's
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: weird is I'm, I'm normally listening. I'm rare, rarely talking
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: about it.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: So I know. Yeah. Uh, it's good to talk to
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: you about it. Any other, any other final things in
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: your notebook? I'm, I'm happy to hear. Um, not really
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: anything that's like pertains to actual ghost experiences. A lot
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: of young people had their sexual experience, uh, sexual awakening
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: to the Devin Siwa Casper, but that probably doesn't, doesn't
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: really tie into, I'm trying to remember this. I was
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: like when Casper became a boy for momentarily in the
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: live action Casper. Yeah. That is really funny. Yeah, everyone
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: was like, God damn! I haven't seen that movie in
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: a long time. Shout out to Casper. Yeah. Shout out
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: to Casper. Again, another friendly ghost. We love a friendly ghost.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: Also, that's something you don't hear about ever, is like
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: a Casper-style cartoon ghost.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a blob. Did you find
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: in your research the origin of that? Like the... Of
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: the cartoon. Yeah. Like the Ghostbusters, the guy who's behind
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: the no smoking sign and the Ghostbusters thing. Yeah. I
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: think it's just, I think it comes from like one
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: of the early ones was this 1937 Disney short in
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: which Mickey and his pals are like ghost exterminators. And like,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: they just did ghosts as like white blobs and it's
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: sort of evolved from there. But that cartoon actually basically goes,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: created the premise of Ghostbusters they like it shows them
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: as it like under a sign that says ghost exterminators
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: and they're like slackers they're like sleeping on the job
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: and Goofy at one point says I ain't scared of
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: no ghosts so like they basically stole the whole Ghostbusters
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: from from that short also ends with them with like
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: white gooey stuff all over them but I think it
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: might be also marshmallow goo so Or ectoplasm, perhaps. That's right.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: You never know.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: I will say this also pertains to the sleep paralysis thing.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: We're talking all these various depictions in media where all
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: these things come from. I have noticed that like that
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem to impact the stories that I receive. And
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: I think I'll be a lot more cartoon ghost, just like.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: Media in general.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I and I, you know, most of my education,
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: like you know, I was like a film major, like
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: TV criticism and stuff. Like, like my brain works to
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: like notice those patterns and I would immediately be clocking
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: it in stories. Um, unless of course it was a
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: missing scene from star Wars involving a dude, blue drink.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: I rarely see, um, like media influencing people's experiences. They
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: normally exist like in a vacuum. Um, so like the
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: floating ghost and stuff like that. I know there's a
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: lot of, evidence that exists supposed evidence of like you
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: know through history things changing people using that's like right
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: off um experiences especially with ufos but i don't see
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: it too often in ghosts um or in people's actual
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: experiences in general and um i just think.
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: That's really interesting yeah right gives it a little more
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: a little more credence to it when it's not a
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: thing where it's like.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah and he had a smooth head and he sounded
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: like a teenage boy and uh yeah he was really
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: nice and he had uncle ghosts that were really mean.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: I don't really see like an uptick when like there's
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: new movies or anything like that you.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: Know right that's like a haunted everyone's suddenly talking about
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: a haunted doll they have or something yeah yeah Yeah.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: Pliny the Elder reported a story where somebody had an
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: old man with a long beard and rattling chains haunting
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: his house in Athens. Like during. Yeah. So like that.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, that feels. And then centuries later, there are
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: accounts of like poltergeist, a ghost that causes physical disturbance,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: such as loud noises or objects following or being thrown around.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: was uh reported at a farmhouse in germany in 856
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: so yeah it's like basically the same shit all along.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: I will i'll leave you with this another thing that
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: i think is really interesting is people who see a
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: loved one as a ghost not realizing they're a ghost
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: like right before they or when they pass away right
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: right somebody is like sees their grandpa in their kitchen
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: um like across town or in a different state that
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense. And then they find out later
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: that he died like 20 minutes before that.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: That's like a common thing. And I, I find that
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: to be really, really strange.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: Damn. Grandpa, why are you wearing all those chains? Very
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: influenced by Michael Jackson's bad. We got a suit suit on.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: What the fuck is that? Uh, Jack Wagner. I feel
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: like I could talk to you for, uh, three days about,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: about all this stuff. But, uh, Where can people find you,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: follow you, hear more from you?
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: Otherworld is the name of the show. Our Instagram is
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: at Otherworldpod. And you can find the show wherever you
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: listen to your podcasts, of course.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: Otherworld is a man jumping through a void on the cover.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: Please check it out. Leave a five-star review. Yeah, go
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: check it out. Guaranteed to get, like, goosebumps. I get, like,
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: goosebumps once an episode at least. It's a good show.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: It's a lot better than hearing me talk, I can
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: tell you that.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 3: We were saying before you got on, Jack, that, like,
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 3: both Jack and I were like, I was like, dude,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: this is like the one show and I listened to
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: like where I regularly go.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: Fuck.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: We know the name that only her dad called her though.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, we, the amount of interviews we do that
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: don't make it on like, like it's at least 10
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: to one. Like we do 10, at least 10 interviews
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: for every episode that actually comes out. Maybe it might
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: even be 20 to one. I've never counted, but like,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: We do a lot. We do a lot because we
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: try to hold ourselves to a high standard.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right. People still complain no matter what. Sure.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: But we try to make a good show. Yeah. Go
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: check it out. All right. Thanks for doing this. I
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: will be right back with the notebook. Thank you guys
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: for having me. All right. That was G-G-G-G-Ghosts. G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-Ghosts. Thanks
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: to Jack Wagner for joining. A little different than what
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: we normally do on Icon episodes or TDZ in general.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: When Jack's on, I like to, you know, suspend the skepticism.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: I like to believe. I've said before, I want to
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: believe in aliens. I also want to believe in ghosts.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: And sometimes I do. Never more than when I'm listening
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: to Otherworld, I will say. Between the two, because we
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: have done an Icon episode about gray aliens, and the
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: more research I did on gray aliens and human encounters
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: with aliens, the harder it was for me to believe
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: this episode and mainlining episodes of Otherworld. had the opposite effect,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: perhaps predictably. Also, more in it for us, there just
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: being something beyond just this, whereas Aliens, it's like, eh,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: I guess we exist at the will of aliens that
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: they could kill us anytime they want. But yeah, I
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: mentioned that ghosts hadn't evolved the same way. You can
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: see like pop culture and the shared consciousness sort of
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: circling and zooming in on the final design of the
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: iconic aliens we have today. Like early alien sightings include
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: little hairy teddy bears and a light switch with legs
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: in one case. And it was, it was kind of
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: like guess and check and sort of natural selection that
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: eventually got us to the best alien design, which is
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: the one that when you close your eyes and I
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: say aliens, usually people are picturing the face of the grave.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: Ghosts are sort of similar. Like there are a few
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: features of pop culture ghosts that you can see evolve
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: and Actually influenced by special effects. So these days, ghosts
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: are frequently depicted as see-through, translucent, but that actually didn't
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: start until around the time of Dickens. One of the
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: earliest examples of an explicitly transparent, I should have said,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: ghost in fiction was Jacob Marley in A Christmas Carol.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: Dickens wrote that his body was transparent, adding that Scrooge
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: had often heard it said that Marley had no bowels,
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: but he had never believed it until now. So again,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: similar to Dracula, 19th century author evoking poop at an
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: important dramatic meeting. Obviously, I think he was more saying
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: he had heard he didn't have guts. But it's funny
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: how shit-tinged everything was back then, possibly because Everything smelled shit-tinged,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: so it was just never far from their minds. But
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: Dickens was, according to our research, according to JM's research,
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: drawing on a convention that had only relatively recently been
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: established due to new optical shows like phantasmagoria lantern shows
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: which projected luminous images uh so that's where we first
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: start seeing transparent uh ghosts and then as i mentioned
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: at the end there uh the idea that these uh
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: kind of see-through ghosts would be floating off the ground
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: was because of pepper's ghosts uh which is a stage
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: effect where the ghost is projected onto a piece of
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: glass that's in between the audience and the stage, but
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: kind of invisible to them. They still use it at
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: the Haunted Mansion, but it's really hard to make it
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: look like the thing being projected onto the glasses, standing
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: on the same floor as the actors standing on the stage.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: So they were just like, well, these ghosts of course float.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: I will just say in my brief survey of ghost sightings,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: On Otherworld, they're rarely transparent and they're rarely floating. In fact,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: I was struck by how commonly people are referring to
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: the ghosts walking. One ghost sighting beneath the bayou talks
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: about the ghost kind of coming from behind them and
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: taking big, loping steps. like that, that make them be like, well,
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: it's going to catch me because those are some big steps, which, uh,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: tangentially that's actually, uh, I remember hearing that be a
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: explanation for why Usain Bolt was so much faster than
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: other people is his legs were moving as fast as
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: the other sprinters, but his, uh, the, the length of
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: his steps, his gate was covering, like, you know, he
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: was covering a hundred meters in like three steps. All right.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about how ghost movie afterlife, like
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: I talked in the episode, how they are kind of
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: the clearest image I have in my mind of any afterlife. Um,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: And so that made me want to go through the
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: thought exercise of which ghost movie afterlives I would choose
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: to be real if I had to choose. And I
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: ended up leaning towards the Swayze movie Ghost being my
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: best case scenario. There are some things that a lot
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: of these ghost movies tend to have in common. The
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: ghost is usually stuck in some sort of in-between realm
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: until they can resolve something from their life in Swayze Ghost.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: That's the name of the movie, right? Swayze Ghost. He
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: has to like catch the bad guys who murdered him
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: and tell his wife he loved her or something. The
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: subway ghost that we meet is stuck in the subway
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: until he can admit that he jumped in front of
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: the train. instead of being pushed. I think he's like, no,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: I was pushed, not junk. That ghost, terrifying. Definitely one
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: of the most terrifying ghosts in movies, in my experience,
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: and in my opinion. And then you either get pulled
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: down to hell by scary shadow demons, or you get
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: to go to heaven, which just seems bright enough It
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: seems like it's a early Apple commercial up there. Uh,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: but I like this one because it's basically a video
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: game that you get to like practice and perfect and
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: like move up to the next level. Um, and you
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: can interact with people and like jump into their bodies
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: and stuff. Once you learn like all the rules, um,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: but jumping into their bodies, like, Also makes you wasted
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: for like 30 minutes. So it's just like there's I
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: like the clarity of the rules um, in the, in
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: the movie ghost beetle juice. Uh, there are a couple
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: of things I don't like about beetle juice. I think
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: it's a similar, like stuck in between trying to move
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: on to the next thing. Um, but I don't like
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: that you're stuck As a... Like, there's a person who's, like,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: a flat Stanley-style pancake person because they just happen to
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: die by, like, being run over by what looks to
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: be a heavy machine. But, like, Elon Musk drowns and
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: he's good. He just, like, has a good... Like, it
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: just seems somewhat random. That seems to be the same
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: with the Sixth Sense. Like, a lot of the ghosts are...
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: Still displaying the injury that killed them. So it's just
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: like too much riding on the happenstance of like whatever
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: happens to kill you. Also, I'd say Beetlejuice seems to
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: involve too much real estate law, like Alec Baldwin and
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: Geena Davis die in. like a river in town on
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: that covered bridge, but then they kind of walk into
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: their house and don't remember how they got there. And, uh,
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: they're basically on eternal house arrest. Another thing, by the way,
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: that would favor Elon Musk and the wealthy, which I
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: don't think doesn't seem fair. It doesn't seem quite fair
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 1: to me that everyone's on, on a house arrest. Uh,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: I like the Rome ability of the Swayze ghost afterlife. Uh,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: and also, uh, You seem like you have a pretty
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: good grasp of time. That's another thing. Like Beetlejuice seems
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: like sometimes they're like, oh, my God, a whole month
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: has passed. And like things just when you, I think,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: walk outside of the bounds of the house, you know,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: Field of Dreams, another one where they don't seem to
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: realize that time has passed. Um, sixth sense, obviously it
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: seems like he doesn't realize time has passed and is
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: missing big chunks of the past year. Um, and when
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: you skip big chunks of reality, you'd end up being
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: kind of out of place, like confused by what people
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: are wearing, what they're saying, like just seems confusing. Uh,
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: ghosts must hate Gen Z slang. Imagine if Bruce Willis's
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: character had to talk to Haley Joel Osment through a
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: veil of just like impenetrable Gen Z slang. Uh, that's
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: actually something I meant to ask Jack about literally is like,
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: I feel like ghosts have to be on average way
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: less progressive, like way more, uh, racist and regressive than
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: the average person just around us like one of his
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: episodes actually uh that same one with the big big
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: step in ghosts uh under the bayou is about a
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: woman who moves into her grandpa's house in the south
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: and you know she's queer and uh you know has
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: parties with like you know, young queer people. And the
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: ghost is like attacking people at these parties so much
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: so that she eventually moves out. And a few weeks later,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: her dad moves in and he's like, yeah, I hear
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: whispering and like doors closing and stuff, but the ghosts
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: are actually pretty chill. So I don't know. I'm not,
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not here to say that that ghost is, you know,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: racist and anti queer people. It just, Just interesting ghosts.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: Something about these parties full of young queer people. Very interesting.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: But knowing old people that that makes sense, right? Like
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: ghosts must be pound for pound. You know, the most
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: problematic sentient beings on the planet based on just being
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: from past generations. All right. Taking through other ghost movie
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: afterlives that, you know, might challenge the Swayze ghost for
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: the best ghost movie afterlife. Scrooge slash A Christmas Carol.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: I feel like they seem pretty miserable. They seem actually like.
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: miserable teachers who are just here to like impart a
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: lesson but they're also there's like a heavy undercurrent of
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: them being very unhappy that they fucked up their own
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: chance at doing the thing they're teaching about um in
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: this case being alive so i mean to varying degrees
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: right like marley does not seem to be a happy
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: camper I think the Ghost of Christmas Present is a
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: little bit more of a good time. But, you know,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: I'd say this is not the worst, but definitely not
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: as much fun as like Afterlife as video game. And
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: then I was thinking hard about the Ghostbusters Afterlife. And
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: I think the reason I don't fuck with the Ghostbusters
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: Afterlife is because of the Ghostbusters. because it just feels
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: way too easy to just be, like, minding your own
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: business at a ghost party, being a well-meaning, undead person who, like,
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: died on the Titanic. The entire, you know, group of
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: people who died on the Titanic wash up or sail
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: up in the second Ghostbusters. And, you know, like, you
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: could be totally fine, and the next thing you know, you're, like, dramatically...
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: sucked into, like, vacuum cleaner ghost jail forever. A lot
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: of dramatic sucking happening in the Ghostbusters universe, as I
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: referenced in my intro to Miles. But yeah, I do
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: feel like ACAB does, in fact, include the Ghostbusters. So yeah,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm sticking with the Swayze ghost as
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: my favorite ghost afterlife. Happy to hear alts. One little
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: piece of research that I didn't get to is that Ghost,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: that was almost not Swayze Ghost, that was almost Bruce
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: Willis Ghost, as I've talked about before, Bruce Willis movies
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: being my favorite genre of movies when I was like
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: eight to ten. 12 years old. Um, but yeah, that
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: movie was supposed to be a real couple plays movie couple, Mr.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: And Mrs. Smith type situation with Bruce Willis and Demi Moore, uh,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: when they were kind of the Hollywood it couple. And, uh,
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: he got the script and he was like, yeah, I
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: don't get it. Ghost, ghost can't fuck was, it was
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: basically his, uh, problem with it. Literally his quote is,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: I just didn't get it. I said, Hey, the guy's dead.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: How are you going to have a romance? Um, Didn't
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: read the third act, apparently. It's romance via Whoopi Goldberg
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: lesbian surrogacy. They have an answer to that question in
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: the script, Bruce. But yeah. And then the most successful
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: movie Bruce Willis is in is a ghost romance. A
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: guy who's been ghost divorced, basically. A few more things
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: about some iconic ghosts that we didn't have time to
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: get to. Maybe the most depraved ghost sighting in pop
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: culture is in The Shining when we see a room
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: full A guy is about to, you know, it appears
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: to be get blown by a man in a bear costume.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: But like, it just seemed like the vibe seems very strange,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: you know, happy to let them do what they're going
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: to do. But like the guy sitting on the bed
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: seems weird. I don't know. Anyways, I was not wrong
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: to think the vibes were off in that room, because
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: in the book, I'll just read. This is from a
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: Screen Rant article. In the book, the man dressed in
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: a suit is actually Horace Derwent, who's the mysterious owner
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: of the Overlook Hotel, and the man in the costume,
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: which is a dog in the book, is named Roger,
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: and he's a one-time lover of Horace Derwent. Like there's
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: a backstory where Horace instructed Roger to attend one of
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: the hotel balls in costume as a dog and behave
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: like a dog for the other guests, which very rude.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: How rude. Anyways, maybe the most iconic ghost form in
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: popular culture is, is the, uh, bed sheet ghost, which are,
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: you know, everywhere from, uh, it's the great pumpkin, Charlie Brown,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: the intro to Scooby-Doo ET trick or treat scene. Um,
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: it's the official Lego ghost character appears to be, uh,
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: bed sheet ghosts. There's also legitimately creepy appearances of bed
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: sheet ghosts. Michael Myers steals a bed sheet ghost costume
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: from a boyfriend he's just murdered and wears it, goes
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: undercover as a bed sheet ghost at one point. In
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: The Conjuring, a sheet that is hanging on a dryer
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: line at one point blows off and reveals a human form.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: A very effective moment of scariness. So in terms of
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: where it came from, As I touched on briefly at
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: the end, I was first introduced because of burial shrouds,
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: as mentioned. And it's another example, like with Dracula and Sherlock,
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: where these iconic characters get designed and redesigned and being
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: on stage, like being characters in stage plays really helps
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: them lock in what their sort of central iconic images, uh,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: tread in the boards. When you, uh, have to project
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: a ghost to the back of the room, there's something very, uh,
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: simple and effective about a sheet, you know, a sheet
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: with eye holes is tough to beat. And it made
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: sense to people at the time because of the burial shrouds. Uh,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: so I think when Hamlet first went up, Hamlet's dad
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: was wearing armor. Um, but, it was eventually a, you know,
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: they put a sheet over him. Uh, most, most famous
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: ghost dad, uh, apologies to Bill Cosby. Actually, no apologies
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: to Bill Cosby here on this podcast. Uh, maybe the
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: most iconic sheet ghost is the Pac-Man ghost, uh, who
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: at one point do have their sheet removed. I did
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: not realize this because I was not very good at Pac-Man,
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: but If you get to, like, one of the higher
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: levels of Pac-Man, the ghost characters, like, sheet gets pulled off,
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: and you see what they look like underneath, and it
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: kind of looks like a little pink penis with eyes
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: on the top of it. You can look it up online.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong. That's kind of what it looks like
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: to me. But as for whether belief in ghosts are
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: connected to, you know, our desire for an afterlife and
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: fading of religion, I will just say I'm not the
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: only one making that connection. Movies with ghosts are often
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: banned by the Chinese government, and they tend to ask
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: that their movies present if a movie is going to
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: have A ghost, the movie has to like go back
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: and explain that it wasn't really a ghost like Scooby-Doo
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: style because they want a sort of secular worldview in
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: their movies. And even when a ghost sneaks through, like
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: with Star Wars, I remember that being an explanation for
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: why the Star Wars movies don't resonate with Chinese audiences.
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: Star Wars comparatively flops in China. And one theory for
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: why is that they're allergic to force ghosts. All right,
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: that's plenty. That's going to do it for ghosts. Thanks
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 1: again to Jack Wagner for joining us, allowing us to
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: believe in ghosts for a week each year. Thanks to Miles,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: as always, to J.M. McNabb for the research, and to Brian,
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: the editor, for putting it all together. We are back
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: next week with our most surprisingly powerful horror icon. On
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: the surface, they seem like they shouldn't be scary at all.
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: I can confidently say... that when they appear in movies,
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like I could... beat them up and yet
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: they are probably the number one ingredient to make your
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: horror movie scary time and time again horror directors turn
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: to them it's a mystery why are they so scary
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: and we're going to have one of the best possible
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: people on to help us get to the bottom of
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: it next week our final horror icon with Jason Pargin
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: we will talk to you then and a bunch of
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: times before then bye The Daily Zeitgeist is executive produced
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: by Catherine Law. Co-produced by Victor Wright. Co-written by J.M. McNabb.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: And edited and engineered by Brian Jeffries.