Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / Beards and Lavender Dating in the Queer Community

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Beards and Lavender Dating in the Queer Community · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Stanny Ann smitha stuff I never told
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: you protection iHeartRadio, and welcome to another edition of me
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: still having beef with being ceer baited. So for listeners
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: who don't know, I'm thinking about making this a playlist
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: because we have the functionality and that we love. A
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: good playlist could really work through some of these things,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: because I have been working through it since January. And
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: the weather outside, by the way, it's storming fiercely just
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: matches my emotions about being cueer baited. So if you
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: hear it, it's it's just appropriate.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Is the world agree?
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, So today we're talking about beards in the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus community sense and I was kind of surprised
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: no one has ever done an episode on this. There
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: are a lot of as in no one past host.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I'm sure other people have done episodes on it, but
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of interesting facets when it comes
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: to women and this particular intersection that we're going to
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: get into. It also took me to a place that
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't expecting to go because the meaning has kind of
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: shifted in recent years, and I completely missed this whole
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: trend of it shifting and we're going to talk about that.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I want to say at the top of this one.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: It probably goes without saying, but I'm just going to
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: say it as someone who kind of took a while
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: to figure out I was queer and how exactly I
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: was queer. There is there's no singular gay experience. There
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: is not one roadmap. There are many reasons to be
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: careful and how we understand and talk about topics like
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: this and generalizing queer relationships at large. There are stories
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: of everyone believing someone is gay no matter what you say,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: or the opposite, that someone must be experimenting, that they
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: must be straight no matter what you say. Both are
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: dismissive and harmful in different ways. There are forces, both
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: large and small, pushing people into straight relationships from a
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: very young age, sometimes in a way that is unknowingly harmful.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: There are labels people who are closeted and may be
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: experiencing internalized homophobia or compet might accept before accepting that
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: they're queer, you know, just to having these ideas like
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: that's just how this relationship is, that's just how best
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: friends behave. I'll get over this. That was something I
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: felt for a while. Then there is a level of
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: protection of publicly presenting as straight via a relationship that
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: could be unconscious or conscious, and we'll talk about that more.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: All that being said, yes, we are going over an
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: abbreviated history of beards in the LGBTQ plus community, which
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: can be a bit twisty in terms of why people
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: engage in these types of relationships, and it has changed
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: over time. Also, a lot of them involve speculation, so
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: keep that mind. So what is a beard in the
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: context of the LGBTQ plus community. A beard is a
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: person who dates or marries a gay person to help
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: them conceal their sexuality, whether they know it or not.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Having a beard was a way to stave off any
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: rumors of queerness, especially from the nineteen twenties to the
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. It could be that both people in this
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: situation are gay, but typically beard is used to refer
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: to a relationship between a lesbian or a straight woman
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: and a gay man. The New Partridge Dictionary of Slaying
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: and Unconventional English defines it as quote a person who
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: escorts another to a social function in order to mask
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: the identity of one or the other's lover or sexual orientation.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It has been used in the past to reference someone
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: who acted as a way to hide infidelity, but that
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: usage is pretty much fallen by the wayside, but that
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: at one time was the case. There's some argument about
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: the origins of beard in this context, and folks they
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: really don't agree. According to some sources, it relies on
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the idea that women are covering for gay men, giving
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: them a masculine beard to hide their homosexuality. There's actually
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of commentary about it, so if you want
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: to look into it you can. The term with this
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: definition goes back to nineteen fifty six and probably earlier.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: It does have a historical Hollywood connotation that may go
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: back to the nineteen twenties, when Hollywood contracts included morality
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: clauses that forbade any engaging in queer relationships because they
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: were believed to be damaging to a celebrity's image and
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: the studio's image as well. It's related to terms like
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: lavender dating or lavender marriage or front dating. We're going
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: to talk more about lavender dating and its evolution because
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: this was all news to me, but at the time
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: it referred to a mixed sexual orientation. Relationship between a
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: man and a woman, a relationship of convenience to avoid
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: social stigma and reap the benefits of a heterosexual relationship.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Lavender dating typically refers to actors or other public figures
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: hiding their sexuality. At the time before World War Two,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: would be openly queer was not accepted, and certainly you
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: wouldn't get work if people knew about it. In fact,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: it could end a person's career if there was even
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: a hint or a suspicion about it about you possibly
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: being queer, whether you were or not. The term itself
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: may go as far back to the UK in eighteen
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: ninety five, when the color lavender was associated with homosexuality.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: There are lavender lavender dating apps like right Now, but
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: more on that later. Yes, as discussed in our episode
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: on the bird Cage, the Motion Picture Production Code or
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: the Hayes Code from nineteen twenty two to nineteen forty
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: five didn't allow for the depiction of gay characters in film,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: though there were ways to get around it or to
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: suggest it subtext, but the actors were roped into this too,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: so they were being pressured to not be openly gay
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: or again even hint and being gay, and sometimes were
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: placed in year of relationships by their agents or managers
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: at the best of the studio. Despite widespread homophobia at
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: the time, the term beard became popular in the nineteen
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: sixties as a slang in the queer community. This is
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: also around the time of the Lavender Scare, when lesbian women,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: who were largely associated with lavender by this point, and
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: gay men were deemed as security threats by the US government. Ethically,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: people argue about beard's is it using someone? Mostly the
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: consensus seems to be if it is an arrangement entered
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: consensually or at the very least both parties are aware
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: or unintentionally for both parties so they don't know, then
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: it's fine. It is a bit more complicated than that, because,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: as I said, a lot of these relationships are really
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: loving or actually I haven't said that yet. Both this
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: outline a lot they are actually really loving a lot
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: of them. So sometimes when someone admits that they weren't
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: straight but we're hoping that a straight relationship would quote
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: cure them or they'd grow into it, there's hurt and anger,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: but often there's still care once the dust settles, and
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I do want to reiterate that, and I will throughout
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: the episode. Another argument that comes up is how this
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: isn't a great situation for both parties, but often women
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: who entered into a relationship with a man who still
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: has gay partners while she is home taking care of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: everything around the household, then it's unfairly impacting her. It
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: requires a lie if the situation is intentional. It was
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: expected that for a lot of these beards who were
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: women in old Hollywood days, that they wouldn't engage in
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: extramarital affairs. There has been some research into the negative
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: mental impacts of relationships like these. Will talk a little
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: bit more about those in a second, but obviously a
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: little bit hard to study. I did find her a
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: pretty interesting am I the whole post on Reddit about this.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: It was about two people who were trying to escape
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: their religious community, and one was a straight woman and
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the other was a gay man. They both entered this
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: relationship knowing these things, and they did it to escape
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: this religion. The post was kind of about like, was
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: she the soul for not telling her family? Most people
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: on it seemed to say, like, no, if they were.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Not, they're escaping right. Obviously they were escaping someunthing. Yeah,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: maybe the family.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was It was actually a nice post
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: because she was saying, now he's got a partner and
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: they're all friends together, like you know, it didn't fall apart.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that happens more often than people think, like
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: when you have really strict religious places. And we talked
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: about it with like the asexual community in India in
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: that kind of level of like they didn't call it lavender,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: but like essentially the queer people who are like, we're
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: not interested in this, we don't need these things or
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: we you know, like it kind of yeah, saves their
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: reputation and like their livelihoods sometimes.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we have a piece about that more in
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: a second too. But I just thought it was interesting
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: because I guess she was worried about She did feel
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of pressure from her family, which a lot
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: of people do feel, but she was also worried about
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Uh it sounds like she didn't spend a lot on
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: her wedding, but she was worried about the financial costs
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: of the wedding when they never really intended to necessarily
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: stay together. But I do love that they together as friends, right,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: and she's friends with his partner now, and yeah, like
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: I said, to reiterate, a lot of these come these
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: relationships come from a place of care. So this brings
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: us to some famous examples. There are quite a few,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: but as I said, it's difficult to separate fact from
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: fiction with these. A lot of rumors and sensationalists reporting
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and speculation. When it comes to examples like this, some
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: of them I couldn't find anything more on. People just
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: think maybe, so I didn't include it. And also a
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: lot of these don't have confirmation from the person in question,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: specifically about their sexuality, so it's still up for debate
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: all that in. Perhaps one of the most famous examples
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: was Rock Hudson, who married his secretary of Phyllis Gates
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen fifties. After a magazine threatened to
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: expose his affairs with various men. His agent went on
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: damage control, throwing some clients of his under the bus
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: and process and arranged an outwardly heterosexual marriage to protect
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Hudson's career. Even so, it was apparently an open secret
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: that he was gay, and he and Gate separated two
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: years later. This was notable for a lot of reasons,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: but one of the reasons is the image Hudson had.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: He was seen as a beefcake. He was a Hollywood
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: heart throb, the image of a straight man that women
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: could lust after and hope to be with one day,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: and straight men could only hope to attain that kind
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: of image, and it was important to keep intact for
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: his career, although I'm sure gay men lusted after the
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: image as well. He later became one of the first
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Hollywood celebrities to speak openly about his HIV diagnosis, and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: he died of AIDS related complications around his sixtieth birthday.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: The year before, he'd been pressured into kissing actress Linda
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Evans on Dynasty, something he reportedly was really resistant to
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: because he knew he was sick and he was worried
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: about transmitting it to her, and at the time, people
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: still didn't really know how AIDS worked. So if you
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: want to learn more about him, there are several documentaries
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: about him, and there's a lot of other information. I
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: will say Gates herself insisted that they married out of
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: love and nothing else, and he wasn't officially outed until
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: after his sess so he didn't ever say it. The
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: rumors of his alleged homosexuality drew so much attention that
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: they are often credited with helping foster the early tabloid industry,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: industry that profited off early outings of public figures with
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: which I personally find really cross, but yeah, it was
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: a big deal. Here's another one, actor William Billy Haynes,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: a film actor whose career started taking off in the
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. He moved from silent films to sound films
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: without much trouble, which was kind of like a boon
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: at the time, and he was a real asset for
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: MGM Studios. Story has it, though, that a higher up
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: at MGM gave Haynes an ultimatum his career or his
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: homosexual lifestyle, because at the time he lived in an
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: openly queer relationship with his partner, Jimmy Shields. Haynes's career
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: shriveled because he chose his relationship, and his relationship with
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Shields lasted until his death nineteen seventy three. Some people
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: do suggest he may have won wanted to retire and
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: pursue his interest in interior design, which he did anyway,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: but it's likely that he was getting pressure to enter
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: into a beard relationship. It could have been both were
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: at play, but he left it behind. Allegedly, Judy Garland
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: didn't realize her husband was gay and later told her
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: daughter to marry a gay man because they were the
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: best partners.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know if she went through somethings, so that
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: makes sense. To be honest, it is not true a me,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: but like it could be believed. It's pretty believable.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes. Betty White has long been rumored to be
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: the beard for Liberacchi and attended a lot of events
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: with him to give him a straight outbi Again, none
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: of all, none of this is necessarily confirmed, but this
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: is the rumor. In nineteen fifty nine, the performer won
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a lawsuit that insinuated that he was gay, so these
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: rumors were really prolific around him. His agent was so
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: desperate to fight these rumors that he attempted to hide
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: the fact that Liberacci was HIV positive at the time
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of his death in nineteen eighty seven. That being said,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: that's not necessarily what led to his death. There were
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: a couple of other things that were going on, but
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: sources do indicate his agent was pushing a certain narrative.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: White herself later seemed to confirm he was gay. So
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: actor Jonathan Schnick, I'm so sorry if I'm butchering that,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: claimed in an ama on Reddit that his manager requested
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: he attend events with Ellen DeGeneres as her beard in
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: the early days of her show Ellen, when there were
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: concerns that viewership would be negatively impacted if audience has
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: learned about her sexuality. He called it an honor.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Did she have male relationship I'm trying to remember. I
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: don't remember her having any relationships.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Well, it could just be he's attending with her. So
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: people are like assuming I was wondering.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Because I feel like that was never I'm sorry, that's
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: a sidetrack because like I don't remember because I was
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: young when she was big, like in her own she
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: had her own show, sitcom like that really propelled her.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: And that was before we knew that she was a lesbian.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: That's before she came out. Did she ever date on
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: band publicly?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like she did, but maybe she. Okay,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: keep going, Sorry, that's gonna be in my head for
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: a minute.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's kind of the thing is it's
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: just the suggestion that maybe she is this person is
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: always with her speculation. This is also when representation of
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Beard started showing up in sitcoms like Will and Grace,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: along with the very related gay best friend Trope. I
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: speaking of memories when I was researching this, I feel
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: like there was a conversation about this when Tom Cruise
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: and Katie Holmes got married. You've got like the scientology angle,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: so it's hard to say, but there there was an
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: air of performative marriage to prevent any questions and preserve
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: his celebrity image. And I remember thinking it was weird
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: at the time, and I was young. It felt so
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: forced for whatever reason. But also can people not just
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: be single? Right?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, I need to go back, because I did look
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: it up. So that du that you mentioned, who is
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: actually pretty famous, like I remember him because he was
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: a heart throb, but apparently they wore a picture together
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: holding hands and such, so I guess he was a
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: beard for her. I did not realize. Yeah, oh gooy
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: things I didn't remember.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And the thing is it still happens. Yeah,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: our at least speculation still happens about secret gay Hollywood stars.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: A part of this plays and just something called showmance
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: or dating someone for clout, for both for both their careers.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: This doesn't have to be queer necessarily. We're gonna talk
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: about queerbating aspect momentarily. But you know, two actors are
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: good looking, attractive, think it might do better for their careers.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: You know, I've seen it actually play out in YouTube,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: like Big Two Creators tending to be dating and like,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: oh my god, we've been waiting for this, like there's
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: this new level. Yes, and they're not actually dating, and
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: it's not necessarily because they're a beer. They're just trying
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to get that showman's that like notoriety because they're blending
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: their yeah viewership.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that parasocial level. I want them to get together.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So yes, it does bring us to the modern day.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: There are still rumors about actors and public figures doing this,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: though once again it's chicky to navigate and should be
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: handled carefully. I would say it's not really our business.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Though conversely, there have been conversations about queer baiting in
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: public figures who lean into a persona of being queer
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: when they maybe aren't for their career. These are also
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: difficult to pin down because I don't ever want to
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: dismiss someone's sexual identity I don't know them, and I
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: feel this often falls on bisexuality, which is already a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: problem when it comes to representation of bisexual folks. Like
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: kind of the conversation comes negatively for bisexuality, I would say,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: But I do think people absolutely lean into it in
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: some cases if it benefits them. Interestingly, I find it
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: interesting that this is the opposite of like a beard.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: This is like somebody really leaning into queerness for the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: benefits of it. But yes, that being said, there are
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: measurable examples of non celebrities entering into marriages of convenience,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: or cooperative marriages as they're sometimes called in parts of Asia.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Smantha, queer adults pretend to be straight
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: for their families, including occasionally marrying someone of the opposite
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: sex to avoid disappointing their families. Many of these marriages
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: are between a gay man and a lesbian, both looking
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: for the same shielding. Some do it to have children,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: because in a country like China, for instance, it's really
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: hard for same sex couples to adopt. For a while,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: this arrangement was well known enough that there was an
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: app in China to facilitate it called Queers. The app
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: eventually shut down due to lack of revenue, but the
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: founder at least reports that people still reach out hungry
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: for their services. That it was popular. People in these
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: situations spoke of the pressure to meet societal expectations, the
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: weight of the questions from their parents, and feeling like
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: there was no choice but to get married. Also interesting
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: to me, there are a lot more gay men looking
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: to marry a lesbian than vice versa, or at least
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: because people clearly don't want to be super open about this,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: but according to kind of the numbers we do have,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: that's what it seems to imply. Many who who did
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: acquiesce to being interviewed reported being absolutely miserable that it
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: ended up being not a fix at all. Are not
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: worth it. There's a pretty big conversation in India happening
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: about this too. The twenty twenty two movie bad Hai
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Dou depicted a gay man and a lesbian woman marrying
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: each other so that they could pursue what they actually wanted.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: While there was some back and forth about whether this
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: movie was harmful or helpful for the queer community, it
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: certainly got a conversation going. There was a lot of
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: discussion about the harm that these lavender marriages can do
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: in terms of mental health. In the wake of this
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: of never being honest with your family, and how the
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: brunt of that did usually fall on women. Many ended
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: in separation, and a reminder. Rates of mental health conditions
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: like depression and anxiety are higher in the queer community,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: so these things can be exacerbated. It's a big topic
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: in Pakistan too, which had a movie that same year,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two that caused a lot of conversation where
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: being gay is criminalized. Numbers are on the rise, but
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: hard to track since people are hesitant to share their sexuality,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: but one of the interesting markers that I saw is
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: that it's seemingly more prevalent in the upper and middle class.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: The reasons people who did agree to interview about this
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: gave for why they did it were largely to keep
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: family in their life. That was the biggest reason by far.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Shifting gears around twenty twenty four, lavender marriage slash lavender
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: dating was a trending topic, and it was trending with
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: gen Z. The definition shifted to mean a relationship between
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: two people where they function like a married couple. The
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: reasoning largely given for this was being tired of dating,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: not being able to afford dating, and not being able
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: to live as a single person not being able to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: afford that either. People reported just wanting someone to share
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: a mortgage with to travel with, and that they weren't
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: worried about sex, so they didn't even care about that part.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: In fact, some viral social posts around this time were
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: encouraging their potential lavender partners to go out and be
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: with other people. That they didn't care, They just wanted somebody.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: It was much more about stability and affordability. Here's a
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: quote from autostraddle. Romantic relationships seemingly involve a greater expectation
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: of compromise than these hypothetical lavender marriages do. Pressure to
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: align across a vath swath of human behaviors and preferences.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Focusing only on the logistics of partnership like money and
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: housing releases pressure to align on more emotional elements like
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: shared interest, perspectives on monogamy, love languages, or communication types.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And so. This article, which is called broken Lonely lavender marriages,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: may be for you. References the publication bride coining of
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the platonic marriage quote a legal union based on spiritual
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: connection or practical love rather than on sexual or romantic love.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating to me because that's kind of how it started,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: but without like a lot of rights for women usually,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: but that's kind of how it's started. This is related
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: to another term inflationship, you know, which is yeah, which
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: you think it's about. I read a really funny article
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: about I mean, it's sad because it's our reality, but
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: it was kind of funny because this person was like,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: the world is not made for single people, Like you
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: can't buy things. And I've faced this before all the time.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: If you want bread too bad, a lot of food
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: is gonna get thrown away. So that was what this
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: certain his post was about. I related to it to it,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: but also rent rent being so expensive. As a single person,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: women are allegedly more likely to seek these types of
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: relationships due to frustrations around unequal responsibilities when it comes
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to domestic work and things like that. Others reported living
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: without fear of being hurt or abused. Lavender marriage can
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: feel safe and stable. I know it's it's a depressing
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: state of affairs. Yes, and speaking of going back to
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: that traveling bit, speaking of yeah, you gave me a
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: segue and I took it. A reminder is not safe
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: to travel while queer to certain countries. So that's part
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: of that conversation. And another thing you mentioned, Samantha, it
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: can be beneficial for people on the a spectrum. That
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: is something that is coming up more and more in
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the conversation. Here's another quote from that autostraddle article. In Hollywood,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: lavender marriages were largely commercial prospects, enabling participants to maintain
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: thriving careers within a puritanical and capitalist society. New lavendar
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: marriages are similarly finding a way for gay people to
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: gain the system and still succeed within capitalism's constraints, because duh,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: life has never been more expensive than it is now. Certainly,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: having and raising children has become so cost prohibitive that
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: many gen zers have no interest in doing so. Ultimately, though,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: just as Hollywood's levendar marriages did nothing to cure the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: disease of homophobia, new livend her marriages also address symptoms,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: but not the disease. The astronomical cost of being single.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I think that's a great way of putting it. I
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: had a friend whose therapists said we should be in
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: a political marriage, which I think kind of sounds like
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: a It sounds like this platonic marriage. The way she
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: described to me, it sounds like, yeah, you just have
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: a good friend and you're gonna live together and pay
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: for rent and like you spend your lives together.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Well maybe that's essentially what I was thinking about when
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: I was younger, like younger being like the thirties, but
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: like a lot of my friends were, you know, having
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: marriages and like kids at the point. But I'm like,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and I have a roommate, and it felt so childish.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: But essentially it's the same thing as the marriage. I'm
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: splitting rent with that, you know, we're splitting the cost
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: of living with someone because it is so dang expensive
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and living by yourself is ridiculous, even though that's being
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: married equates to being single and having your own place.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: But it's so much more expensive being single and having
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: your own place.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it is, it's rough out there, it's there.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: I get it. I get it. As I said, As
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I said, people can be happy in these relationships. I
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: think there's a real expansion on what we consider a
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: happy and successful relationship. However, when we're looking at the
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: history of queer people not being able to be themselves,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: that's not okay. If we're looking at people right now
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: can't afford basic like housing and food, that's not okay.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: But I do. I just want to say, even going
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: back to the golden age of Hollywood, some of some
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: of these relationships are really loving and caring. Yes, And
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: as I said, there are still apps for finding a beard.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: You can look them up right now. There are also
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: forums about identifying if you are a beard and don't
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: know it, which I kind of feel like that's a
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: trust is to.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: Me, that's me. Yeah, that's a whole different conversation.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, communication is key, this whole thing. Communication is key.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: One of the big conflicts I saw was that people
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: and these relationships disagreed about what constituted as cheating and
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: about what the boundaries were, because in some of them
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: it's essentially we're together on paper, but you go and
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: be with whoever you want. Some of them not so much.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Another note, queer censorship is real and very present to
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: this day. There are multiple examples of movies and shows
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: cutting her altering planned queer storylines and clinging inside out too.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I forgot about that. Shows have been canceled despite high
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: ratings critical and commercial ratings, and usually the common theme
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: was it's a queer storyline. So even if the Hollywood
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: star Beard conversation might feel a little old Hollywood, what
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: was at its core is still there. It's still prevalent.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: On top of that, a global health study from twenty
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: nineteen found that eighty three percent of the global population
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people can seal their orientation
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: from most of the people in their lives. And you
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: know that's who's willing to speak up about it so
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: hard to say. Here's a closing quote from PinkNews dot com.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: It's worth noting that not everyone is ready or comfortable
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: to outwardly express their true selves. So the process, even unconsciously,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: of bearding isn't something that should be in any way criticized.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: If anything, it is a long standing, historic tradition in
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: the LGBTQ plus community and nothing to be ashamed of
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: as long as every it's consensual.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: As everybody's open communication.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Open communication. And that being said, I long for a
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: world where the homophobic outward forces necessitating bearding would be gone.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: But yes, yes, this really took me. I wasn't expecting
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: to go. I didn't know labnder dating and marriages had
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: like come back so hard and kind of a different way.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting that. So I learned a lot from
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: this episode and I would really love to hear from listeners.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: If you have thoughts, experience, any examples that we didn't
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: go over, because there are quite a few, you can
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: email us at Hello at Stuffhannever Told You dot com.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Bouo sky Almost podcast or
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have some merchandise at Compierreau
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get where to
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always to our superduced Arima
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: and our executive Pruce A Maya, thank you, and thanks
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stuff I've Never Told You is
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: prediction of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: you can check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.