Latest / Total Barnage / Matt Stonier - The Real Cost Of Chasing The Olympics: Injuries, Grief, and Hope

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Matt Stonier - The Real Cost Of Chasing The Olympics: Injuries, Grief, and Hope · Total Barnage

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Total Barnage.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Today is another very exciting guest episode.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Today on the podcast, we have a current British under 23 1500 metre record holder and Commonwealth Games 2022 competitor Matt Stonia.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Matt, welcome to the pod.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks very much for having me on.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure to join.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Mate, that ty that title, that title, taken from Josh Kerr, and I think previously Steve Cram as well.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's an interesting one.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I remember doing it and not really thinking too much about it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was never really my intention to get the record, I just wanted to run quickly.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I've never really been a sort of record guy, I'd rather be a results guy.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but obviously it's shown that you know I've I've done some pretty cool things, some pretty special things when I've been a youngster as well.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So pleasure to have it, but it's always there to be broken, I'm sure it will be some sometime soon.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean that was because that was London, wasn't it?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, that was London Diamond League 2023, which poor lifetime ago now.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, it was the 331-3, obviously, comfortably my best ever race, um, and the best ever race I've done in terms of doing the London Diamond League in front of you know 50,000.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's where the Olympics was, it's where I was as a kid watching.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was sort of a full circle moment, a sort of I've made it moment, and then to be able to, you know, perform pretty well and have a good day was um even better.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, did you um were you at the Olympics?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Did you watch it in that stadium back in 2012?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I watched the Paralympics there.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't able to get tickets for the Olympics, but obviously I was sat on the sofa at home watching every minute of every evening session and obviously super Saturday itself, but I was able to go to some other uh events, did a bit of the cycling, um, went to Rogue Wads, I think, like volleyball, hockey, just just whatever you could get tickets for at the time was pretty hard.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mate, we had um my uncle, he I don't know if I mean I know he's a sports fan, um, but I think he just loves deals and discounts.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, he would go and get just tickets for random events, like yeah, we went to the like BMXing, um, went to the diving or whatever, and then he got me, I got an extra ticket for the um for Radisha's world record.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I was just on the back straight, right, sitting up at the top, like on my own, whilst he got decent seats just because there was an extra one available on like ticket master or something.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what what an evening.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think obviously Super Saturday number one.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Do you put Josh Kerr number two now, Radisha number three?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: But those are definitely the three best moments who've ever taken place in that stadium.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So that's pretty cool that you were there.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I th I think as a as a kid, there's something special about it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I didn't really I guess the build-up now, like being in the sport on social media and the rest of it, like Josh Kerr's, is there's a build-up you can see on YouTube, you like there's the the hype for it.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I don't know how that you know changes the actual the actual feat as well, but obviously it's a I mean it's a world record that Kerr's done.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like he's you know he's just he's just gone and runs in random time.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: But you were you were back into your sport, you've been I mean you're a sports fan, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I often get told from me and my mates, etc., that they've never met anyone as obsessed with sport as I am.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you know, my sport obsession doesn't start and end with athletics.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, athletics is a couple rungs down the ladder when it comes to just sport as a whole.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it always has been, probably always will be.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I come from a fairly sporty family, but I don't think they'd have ever um thought I'd have an obsession as as deep as I do.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I just love it.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I love the stories, I love the you know, the results, the ability to push yourself, the just everything about it, the winning and the losing, the you know, the highs, the lows.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just yeah, everything about it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And across different sports, I think when you're a sports fan of so many, you just see so many similarities, and you can you know understand things as well.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in sport yourself, you feel like you have a better understanding when you're watching sport of what people might be going through, of how it feels when you have a great day out or when you have an awful day out.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like maybe you have a greater connection to it um being in it, but yeah, I'm a I'm a bit of a sports nerd.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: That that that could be a podcast in itself talking about anything and everything for another five hours, but no one wants to listen to that.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we'll we'll pick your um you know, maybe your third third favourite sport as the focal point for today, wherever it is on your top five.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know where I'd have to put it, but it's it I'd we'll put it number one for the next hour or two.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why not?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so interesting that you say that though, because most I don't know, when you look at people that are you know kind of professional athletes and have dedicated, you know, would dedicate so much time, you would think that that's their number one passion as well.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it that it's do you separate you competing versus you being a spectator?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that where the difference lies?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I do like having a level of separation to it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just think I I don't know, maybe it sounds bad, but I just prefer watching some other sports and have always been maybe a bigger fan of other sports.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe they appeal to me slightly more, but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean to say I don't I watch every Diamond League, I watch Euros commies, I I end up watching everything and I obviously enjoy it.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I I do think there are some shortcomings watching athletics sometimes that you feel like there could be a bit of renovation and movement towards a better spectacle to watch, but you know that's that's another conversation.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I still love watching it, but I I do like having a separation.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: I like being able to spend my Saturday and Sunday afternoon not thinking about running or athletics and being able to you know get lost in whether it's the NFL on a Sunday evening, super Sunday on the afternoon, or you know, a Saturday evening rugby game or something.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'd I'd find myself at ease and comfort and just switched off watching them.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Who is your who's your inspiration then as a as a kid?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: You say you you know your family's pretty sporty.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um did you have any inspirations?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Who were they growing up in the sporting realm?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it was always it was always sportsmen.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um being a Chelsea fan, Frank Lampard back in the day was the obvious, you know, he's you've my favourite footballer.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh in South Africa, I've got South African family, and I always used to watch rugby and cricket.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a uh rugby player called Brian Habana, but later see a Khelsee, who's the South African rugby captain and just an inspirational person.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um in cricket, a guy called AB DeVilliers, just my favourite cricketer ever.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um but all actually in the last like 10 years when I started watching NFL, Tom Brady was a massive inspiration.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Just but that was more from just a just to see how he does things and how incredible he is at doing them.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I just love I love clutch people.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I I you don't have to be he I would say he's the GOAT, but you don't have to be the best at something year on year, but if you can do it in the big moments and perform when everyone's watching, I I love those people.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um like obviously your tennis plays, like your Federers and stuff like that, just when the moment matters, and I think that's that's what draws me to a sports person.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, someone who can perform in that setting, I guess like a Josh Kerr in a way, is what I truly admire.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it kind of is when they turn from a a sports person to like a superhuman, and yeah, and I guess as you say, like you need to you need to understand if you're a if you've been in those pressure situations, how difficult it is to maybe like you know keep your focus, or just I I think what's amazing and and I think I guess it's that empathy that you have like playing sports and growing up, being around sports.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, great split that you've got with the Sapphas for you know a bit of rugby like that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I have to thank my family for that.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: I have to thank the family bloodline for that because being able to support South Africa at rugby and cricket means when when the English aren't doing when the English aren't too doing too well, I've got another bandwagon to jump on.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd I'd always be English on the football.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, South Africa aren't a massive footballing nation, but when it comes to rugby and cricket, I'm South Africa till I die.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was actually very fortunate enough to go and watch the Rugby World Cup final in Paris, which was actually three years ago, um the weekend just gone.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember being watching that final was yeah, it was the weekend of Mansfield, yeah.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And just before we ran, that was when it started going to pot for us.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was against England, yeah, 2019.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a hotel at Mansfield as well, watching it having breakfast.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then four years later I was in the Stade de France.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, of course, yeah.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, it was even earlier.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Damn, I've been out of sport for a while as well.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So no, so yeah, no, I've done I've done a bit, and I love going to sport as well, going to live events, um, whatever that may be.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just it's it's obviously just slightly different, isn't it?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you're in person and you're there, and they're just moments that I don't think you ever forget.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think you'll always remember as a kid going to your first football match, or you know, it's the little things like getting the train down or walking over the bridge and you see the stadium for the first time, and that excitement that you know that's that's why you love it and gets you really excited.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's a similar feeling when you go into a big race as well, when you come out in onto the track, or you know, when you arrive at the the stadium or the track or whatever, and it's that's when it that's when the moment sort of starts, and the you know, that's when the the juices flow and that's what we live for, really.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: When did uh so talk to us about your your running kind of career as a as a young lad?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we were both both from Kent.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Born and bred in the city.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Great county, yeah, great county.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Garden of England.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, like probably the most competitive growing up, like the most competitive county vest to get.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Umbe that and Surrey potentially, um competitive over the cross.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Talk talk to us about just your um your early early years going kind of like into your teenage years for running.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I actually, funny you say sorry, I actually lived there till the age of 12, and again, similar to Kent, it's that competitive environment, and school was very competitive, whether that was football, rugby, cricket, cross cross-country was quite big at our school as well.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I would always win the cross-country fairly easily, but without doing any training or being part of a club or whatever.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it was just at that time, just pure talent or whatever you had.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think obviously with winning comes the desire to want to do it more, and you know, tend to when things go well, you enjoy doing them.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until I moved to Canterbury um at the age of 12 I joined the local athletics club there, which is in Victories Kent, and just settled in there, and that was every Tuesday and Thursday, and you know, for for three, four years I probably didn't go that often, and it was sort of fitting around school, fitting around doing um other other stuff.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I tend to have cricket or hockey or something like that, um, and then it wasn't maybe until the age of 15, 16 where I was starting to maybe look more towards the running, and I would be doing cross-country races, the Kent Leagues on a on a Saturday morning, and um that would mean I couldn't compete in school sport because we'd have school fixtures on the Saturday, and gradually, once you stop playing them, then you're not in the team as much and you're not able to train as much, then people don't pick you, and then it's like, well, if you're not gonna pick me, I might as well go run again.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that just was a natural transition um towards the cross-country, and I must say we had a brilliant group of people in Canterbury, and to train with people who are still really good friends today, um, definitely kept me there, and you know, being able to run around a track is great, but being able to do it with friends that's more important, and that's really what keeps people turning up.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we had Peter who's still there and was the coach, he was there every Tuesday and Thursday with his stopwatch with Ralph, um, shouting out splits and times or whatever, and yeah, I just enjoyed it, and that gradually morphed into something a bit more serious, probably by the time I turned um 16, 17, and made my first English schools cross-country, uh, which for those that don't know is is that's your Olympic final in the cross-country calendar, isn't it?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: As a as a junior, and um I came second in my first one, and I sort of didn't know anyone there, didn't know what to expect, but just sort of went for it and had a good day out.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then a week later I had my first England vest, which I wore with so much pride as a kid, like you couldn't take it off of me.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was like felt like my Olympic final vest, it was just like so special, and then yeah, once that started, that was definitely the driver for you know what, I I want to do this more.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, it was just that love for it, and when you love something and you enjoy doing it and you've got a great group of friends to do it with, it's very easy to keep going, yeah.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think yeah, that Syab kind of looking at I got a few few mates that have um that have kind of stopped running, but like one of them being uh James Pucksty.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was our team captain the one year, was he?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah, and and you know, like athletes like like those, and it is like the creme de la creme at at school.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm I made got English schools in year eight and then was injured pretty much after that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I might have been top 60.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's the thing, the joy of making English schools in itself was quite a big experience because for I'm sure for you, I think the three we did were Leeds, Leeds, and Liverpool.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So for someone from Kent, it's such a big moment, it's a weekend away.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: You get the coach up with the team, you stay the night before in a hotel.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's not just a race, it's a it's an experience, and I think that's great, a great learning curve for someone young.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, there's the junior, intermediate, and senior team.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you have a a real good range of ages and athletes at different stages in their careers, but you're all put together and you've just got amazing volunteers and coaches.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Paul Hills, my the my favourite, he was just a brilliant team manager, and yeah, it you were put in this environment that you weren't used to, and I think it's a great opportunity to learn from those little things and those experiences.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it's sort of undervalued, I think.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, were there any words that stuck with you from any of the the team managers or athletes?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think we had we had team speeches.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just remember James Kingston's being awful.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, um I joke, I no, not really.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just remember what did James say that's the issue.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was so I can't remember.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um he's redeemed himself, yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: He had a good run of the weekend.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's done a right since he's done a right since own the gold at Mansfield set some.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, fair play to them.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So no, and that thing was always it was always good to have, you know, it was like the Tunbridge guys, the the Invicta guys from my club, we we didn't have too many.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tunbridge was always the you know the back of the bus guys because it was a big group.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh well, we also clean up from like Medway and Maidstone and Thanet, and we'll just like hoover up anyone that's around the surrounding areas to come over and come to our club.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was funny because you'd get the bus, I'd get the closest bus stop to me, but that first bus stop there might be five or ten people getting on it, and as it moves its way through Kent towards London, but it would just get more and more and more because everyone would get on like the last couple of bus stops because it has so many from like that Bexley, Dartford, Blackheath, Tunbridge.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I was definitely in the sort of the ends, the far ends of Kent in the wilderness out in Canterbury.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: But we had to be.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I would go to every Tuesday and Thursday um by the time I was maybe 15, 16, and just playing a little bit less in the other sports and maybe doing one or two other runs in the week.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a brilliant teacher at school who would allow me to run um in the afternoons when I had some time off because you weren't allowed to leave.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: The rule was if you left the school, you you had to be leaving to go home, you couldn't come back.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but we worked out a little thing where I could go out for my runs and it wouldn't be flagged or no one would have any issues with it, and so I maybe do that once or twice a week as I sort of moved into A levels and had those free periods and a bit more time.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it you know, training apart from a Tuesday and Thursday wasn't particularly structured.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't run outside of that, I didn't have a specific plan.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I would run with my mates on a Sunday, and over the years we'd gradually make it a bit longer.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't really until I went to university that I only had, you know, an actual training plan that I stuck to that had some form of rigidity that I could follow along, you know, month on month and week and week and build something.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I'm glad I didn't have that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I wasn't too um set in stone about you know having to do this on a Sunday or run at this pace, whatever.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'd go to Parkrun, probably run every single thing flat out at parkrun.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was just what you did as a kid and you didn't think too much about it, but it was all helping my fitness, and obviously I was getting good off the back of that.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I just kept doing that really.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't anything too special, which I think is a good you know thing to look at for anyone doing stuff now, is you know, enjoy it at that age.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the be all and end all to be so specific, as long as you're sort of enjoying it, getting different things done, running quicker a couple times a week, running slower and a bit longer.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not too too much rocket science at that age, I'd say.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's an interesting balance, isn't it?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's quite a simple sport.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: It is, you know, that's the beauty of it.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: At its core, it's a simple sport.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it then becomes complex as we'll get on to you know your last couple of years.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like it's impossible.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's like you know, it's supposed to be so simple.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's um a book, I don't know if you've come across it, by a guy called David Epstein, and no relation of the famous.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say interesting surname, Matt.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so whenever I mention it, I'm like, right, caveat, caveat.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but he's he was actually an 800 metre runner, I don't know how how good, but he was also a journalist for like Sports Illustrated, and he's got a book called Range, which is all about going broad first and then narrowing later on.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I think, yeah, the high school system out in the States, you specialise so early, and you probably run yourself into the ground quite early in your career, and then you've got the Norwegian methods perspective on it, where they don't allow any sort of winning until early to mid-teens.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's interesting, yeah.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: You and and I guess like even people that are that are getting good on you know social media influencers and the rest of them, it might seem like they've just picked up running like two years ago.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But as you say, that background across the board, bit of sport here and there, like cross-training, yeah, those are the reasons why people might l seem like they're oh, this person's got great at the marathon or whatever.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can assure you, any influencer who starts up now, if they used to play school sport, whether that be you know, for hockey or netball, generally, for girls like they do a lot more football and stuff now, but or for the guys just playing football or cricket or or rugby or whatever.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can promise you you'll be better, you'll have a better starting point now if you're training for a marathon than someone who never did any of that and starts training.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think people don't when you're in it, you don't realise that you you're gaining those skills and that you know getting used to that fitness or whatever.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it obviously it it leaves you if you never, you know, return to it, but your starting point when you start again will be better than someone else.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's even similar for um for our gym members at Barn.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like we'll we'll have mainly you might have someone that comes in in their like 50s, might have had a bad gym experience or just hasn't been hasn't has been working pretty hard and the the gym side hasn't been that part of their life for a couple decades.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you start chatting, you ask, you know, what they did at at school, and you know, in the gym it might be even as simple as like coordination, like knowing where your body is kind of thing.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um and those that are sport inclined, it is very much a big big advantage.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um so then so at at Loughborough, because this is what I'm uh fascinated by, especially as like COVID's a bit of a messy, muddy time.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I was able to run a lot more in COVID and did some nice improvements.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: But on paper, you pretty much went 2019, you ran 350 for the 1500.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: 2020, you ran one like one race, it was like when September opened up, um ran another 350.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next two years, you dropped it by 11 seconds, down to 339, and then down to 332 that 2022 season at commies.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: What what happened in those few years?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh I got good at running, I guess.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean you've alluded to it, it sounds like you've you've then started following a training plan, something a bit more structured, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think obviously the the the numbers don't tell a full picture because COVID definitely impacted things.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like similar to you, actually, when COVID hit, we left school the one day and never came back.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for the next two, three, four months, we were sort of in this position where you didn't really know what to do, you didn't know if you'd have a summer season.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: It would have been my last opportunity for an English schools.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was desperate to try and win the English school's 1500 metre title.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then that never came around.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we were we were training for it, but we probably ended up doing more because you had so much more time and you had nothing else to do.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was around that time where I started running a bit more.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: We did some longer runs, up was like I think I even did a couple half marathons just for fun, just because it was like got nothing else to do, never done this before, you know, why not?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was knew I was going to go to Luthbury University, which would start in September, and I remember maybe by middle of July, August thinking I should probably do a bit of training here before university because I can't go to university and be out the back door.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be training with all these big dogs who I've seen racing really quickly, and it's quite a scary, you know, world to be in all of a sudden.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to be able to hold my own.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I got there to Luthborough, and it was only sort of um first year's round, and one of the guys there was a guy called Luke Vio, who I knew uh through the running world beforehand, and we were sort of there, and we were like, well, we should probably do a bit of training before everyone else gets here, get a head start on everyone.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we got quite fit, and then we're like, there was a Luthborough open, um, and there hadn't been any races all summer for any of us because we weren't good enough to travel and do races.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think, and obviously that was the summer Josh, that was the big news the 336, whatever.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And coming to Luthborough's like this God Josh there, and um they were good enough to go to Europe and do a couple races, but for us that there was nothing.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but this Luthborough open opened up, there was a 1500 there, and Luke and I were like, should we just do it?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um we did that together, took a lap each, and then the last lap had a burn-up, and he beat me.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we ran 350.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: But that was just you know, we just felt like doing it, and I think if we'd done a couple races that summer uh with a bit more structure and more racing, I probably could have run 346, 347 that summer, so that's why the 350 probably isn't a fair reflection of the shape I was in.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then the next year, because if I'd run 346, 347, the 339 jump probably wouldn't have looked so severe.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: It makes lots of sense, yeah.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: But then the reason I had a big jump that year was just a year of university training and structure and having honestly the most incredible group to train with.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I look back on it now, my first two, three years of university, how fortunate I was to have the group I did.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I don't want to say it was like a golden era of Luthra because Luthborough's always been a golden era, it's never not had a golden era, but that's sort of how it felt.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we just the sessions were just I look back on some of them now, and like even if I was in good shape now, I could never do them.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: The things we sort of did, and I'm not saying they were correct, we were definitely going way too hard, and it definitely caught some people out, but those times were just free and innocent and just so fun and exciting and novel.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think being able to, you know, dive into that group, dive into that training, and it was the first time I'd ever done stuff like a tempo.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um first time I'd done sessions over maybe 8 to 10k, first time I'd hit long runs consistently of 11, 12 miles, um, so it was just little things like that and that consistency, and I had a pretty good winter of no interruptions, and then that you know paved the way for summer in 339 um and and did that at Watford and sort of won the BMC there.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And Mark Cookway on the I still I I still uh when I watched it this summer before I went back, I was like, he crossed across the line winning, and I've been on Mark Cookway's YouTube for what four or five years doing all the Kent leagues and everything, and I crossed the line winning goes, Is that Kane Elliott?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I'm I'm never forgive him for that one.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: This suspect.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what I mean.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: No one sort of knew who I was or you know what I was maybe capable of, maybe except me and the the my coaches and the people I trained with.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I I like that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I like not being you know the the favourite and the underdog, and I just could go in under my own you know pressure and just focus on myself and it paid off.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I loved that summer and the the two summers after that.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think well Mark probably made up for it.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he commented on your um on your interview saying about you know, no, he's great, Mark.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's great now.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And he he came on our podcast, You've got to go, um, last year, and he's just I again he's one of the the goats of of the sport, isn't he?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like that without people like him, the sport doesn't thrive and survive.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So no, he's a great guy.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the the listeners will know more.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: We got him booked in for a couple of weeks' time.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um perfect.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're in for a good one then.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it'll be great.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've got I'm planning on doing two, like just one for the inside Tonbridge YouTube, um, and then one for one for this podcast.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll actually have like a he's coming down to the gym, we're gonna have the all the cameras set up and the rest of it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, no brilliant, brilliant guests, and just fascinating knowledge and insight, and just you know, having spent so much time in the sport, he knows everything.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, but but so humble as as well.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: In you know, uh he's gonna be he's gonna be listening.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know Mark listens listens to these.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it in the nicest way.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's he's just a club coach.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's just he likes being a club coach, but he he he's so much more than that, but yeah, he's a club coach.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and you see it, and because I I see it, I know I can go down to the club, go down to the track on a Friday evening, I can see the work that all of the guys are putting in.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: And when you know, when I can then when I then watch them on the live stream at Mansfield and they've gone and won by 45 seconds, and let's say like, you know, Ted's gone and run the fastest lap, and of course I would I would know what the work they're putting in.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know what the environment's like because I'm there.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can you I guess describe the you mention that not being in the kind of the spotlight in the limelight?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: What is it like training and just putting in the work and knowing you know the confidence on the inside that that it's there, um but maybe other people not?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it I don't know, talk about like that element of surprise maybe is that let's say like you know that 339 was that a surprise for you um and how does that confidence building up to it impact it?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I think in that that race it was, yes.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't think I'd be maybe win win that um I was about to say diamond league, it's a BMC, but it's what it is.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um but I I I've always been someone who and I'm glad I'm like this because I've seen people who are possibly the other way, and I I think maybe I'd struggle a bit with that, but that might be on the way they train.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I've always been someone who's been able to step it up a lot from training to racing.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was always sort of the motto if I knew I was training with the guys, I knew in a race I'd beat the guys.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whether or not that was I was taking it slightly easier or mentally I could just step up a gear for the race and I could you know hype myself up, be so much more invested, maybe have a better taper week and focus a bit more than some other people.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always loved the nerves and the pressure environment.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned it earlier of having those role models who are clutch and being able to do it in the big moment, and I've always tried to thrive off that.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying I'm anywhere near that.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've you know I've had moments in the big moments where I've had shockers, but I've always tried to revel in that um that that big environment and step it up a level, so I always felt like whatever I did in training, there was more in the tank.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if I had a good session in training, I was like, okay, I can then step up.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been that sort of person in training who aims to hit certain splits and goes, okay, that's the shape I'm in.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um throughout winter, I've always based my fitness and confidence off my tempo.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm able to tempo well consistently and feel easy, um stay within zone or whatever, at around those five minute miles, I always knew I was in great shape.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas on the track in the summer, I've always based it more on 3k pace.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: If I've been able to run six, eight hundreds or twenty-four hundreds or um that anything at sort of three K pace really easily, that's when I know I'm in great shape.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so those have been the if there's confidence indicators, those would be the two sort of areas for me that I I'd like to thrive off.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I always look towards them, um, and I'm nowhere near either of them at the moment, which is fine, I've got plenty of time.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, when those two parts of my of my week and my training are feeling really good and feeling easy, that's sort of when I feel at my best and most confident heading into racing.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Has that always been the case, or is it something that you've worked on yourself personally?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's maybe been a case of being able to notice it and realise when you're in that position.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also being in that position at the right time.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's easy to be in that position at any point in the year, but can you be in that position two weeks out from Liverpool when we would typically do a Thursday tempo six or seven miles and I'm I'm running five minute miles and cruising along?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and I think that's the key is being able to do it at a certain time um of the year, or in the summer, that's you know, if even in July you're able to run your six, eight hundreds at 3k pace whilst feeling fairly comfortable, um, is is a lot more valuable than just being able to do it in in April, and then it's not really useful for anything.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's been the main thing is being able to work out when I want to need to be in that position, and then once I'm there accepting that I'm there, being happy that I'm there, and then having the confidence from that to kick on in two, three weeks or whenever that race may be.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it let's say you uh are not quite in the shape that you want to be in, or is that acceptance like you say, you know, big superpower, and I think it's something that that uh is it's an undercurrent of almost all habits and any sort of change that you want to make in your life, is the the noticing and the awareness kind of thing that that yeah is the foundation of of the rest.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is it then do you have what kind of radical acceptance of where you're at?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is it you know are you very honest with yourself at that point?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I guess there's a temptation to if there's not much you can do between that indicator session and the champs, where do you balance the got to have full belief, but then also accepting where you're at?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, totally.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think whilst it works for you when you're in good shape, it can have the adverse effect when you're not in good shape because you can you end up overthinking and overanalysing, and the more you do that, the more you know you you get stressed and anxious, and then that adds more detriment to to the opportunity of running well.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I I am fairly accepting of it.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've probably this summer was the most accept accepting I've ever had to be for any shape that I'm in.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I wasn't in great shape, and sessions were showing that, and for a while I wasn't even able to session.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I just had to sort of believe in myself, and it's more the desire to just be out there and racing that triumphed um the shape I was in.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is hard, and I think you have to be honest with yourself and reflect.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've seen a lot of people, you we mentioned Manfred, but a lot of people who I think have been or they think they've been going really well and then race, and maybe they're not going as well as they they thought, and I think maybe that those sort of people listen to the noise outside too much, listen to other people, you know.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: They Strava's such a big thing if you see good splitz or Strava and everyone's talking about you, whatever.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you need to focus on yourself, not worry about other people.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think then you can sort of understand what shape you're in, and you have to be honest with yourself in some ways of this is the shape I'm in, this is what I'm going to do.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't want to race because you're not in good shape, then don't.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't you can't then stand up and race, have a bad race and be like, Oh, I thought I was in better shape than that.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be honest with yourself, you have to just accept it, and sometimes you have to kid yourself on the start line that you're gonna be fine, you're gonna get through it, you've still you might not have hit those splits, but you've still done these splits and you still step it up again.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but once you finish the race, the acceptance of okay, yes, on the start line, I've lied to myself, I've told myself I'm gonna be fine, I've told myself I'm gonna win the race, but deep down and afterwards, I think you do know um the position you're in going into it, and if you're accepting of it, then you won't you won't you won't be so down with yourself and you won't be so disappointed with yourself, and I think that's important as well.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's uh it really is a kind of an excellent like nuance of confidence and and delusion and acceptance.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: 100% delusion can be your strongest superpower, but you're you know your biggest failure.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think when was it?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: There was something that must have been a quote that I heard, maybe, maybe like Nick Willis or some some you know really solid Miler where they said, you know, listen to your body in training, but when it gets to race day, stop listening.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are there are times there are times when there are times when you should listen to your body, and obviously there's there is a complex, probably the more experience you have, the easier you can listen to your body and know what what you need.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um but a lot of the times, yeah, it is just when you're on the start line, like what you what are you gonna do?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you I I look at the frame as um I'm more interested in what's useful rather than what's necessarily true.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if it can put me in a better position, especially in that that small, you know, couple of minute period, then great, it's like a bit of a leap of faith.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and it's not easy to do by any means, and you'll always have those doubts creep into your mind, but yeah, that that's where you really have to try and just have trust and faith that you're able to do it because you wouldn't be in that position on the start line if you didn't think you could.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: So take us, could you take us through the the last three years?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know you've uh you've been doing a lot of writing as well, and been putting a lot of the journey on on Substack.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: So for those, I'll I'll link it in the in the description below that you can go, you know, um if anyone's interested in in give me a little plug.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it's great, it's great being able to go through and just have a a diary of of your journey like away from away from the sport or you know, in and out of it at a lot of times.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, could you just sum up, give us a brief overview of of what's happened in the last three years for you?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um so like you mentioned before, everything was going really well, and you mentioned that under 23 record and running at the Diamond League, and that was the summer of 2023.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and then coming into that winter, I I fell over on the track as anyone does just innocently, but actually um fractured my wrist and required surgery, and that was the end of my 2023 season heading into the winter of 23-24.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was my last opportunity to race at the European Cross Country Champs as an under 23.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I was desperate to go there, desperate to try and win and do what I could for the team and try and get another gold medal.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was able to do that, come third.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a great run on the day in Brussels.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably the muddiest course I've ever run in.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was just drowning in it.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Barneycote won, so I can't complain too much.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um you had a good finish, didn't he?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, every everything about everything about that day did was turn to gold literally.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um but in doing so to try and make that team, I I just pushed it too much and did too much too soon, and ended up a week later being diagnosed with a femoral stress fracture.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that was the first major injury I'd ever had, and it just hit me like a train.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're not you're not prepared for it, you're not expecting it.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Everything I'd done in my career so far had been, you know, perfect, I'd never been in too bad a situation.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and suddenly you hear this news and you know, you you think it's almost sort of your life over in some ways, you sort of big it up as this huge thing, and obviously looking back now, I can see that it wasn't, and your perspective changes, but at that moment in time it was really tough.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that ruined my whole winter for 2023 heading into 2024.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: But being an Olympic year, I I still had dreams to go to Paris, and um, you know, once I was able to run, I really committed to it and headed back um out to South Africa and then headed out to Setmaritz in the Swiss mountains for some altitude, and in doing so ended up getting a stress response in my right tibia.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that put pay to the summer because that was in May, and that was eight weeks, and I wouldn't be able to train, and I knew you know I was never gonna be in any shape or um anywhere near close to making the Olympics.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that that was essentially 2024, and then I was able to start training again towards the end of 2024, um, but was derailed at the end of the year.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um not necessarily from injury, but more just from life and being you know experiencing different things in life and dealing with life setbacks as opposed to running setbacks.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in turn that led to another injury um once I headed to South Africa at the start of 2025.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: So those so those those stress fractures and those responses, had they independently are they healed and then obviously I like going through it because it's with with those injuries there's because different different types of injuries require different types of responses, but those ones are pretty much like they can't do anything.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: You just you just gotta let uh let them heal.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um as your first as your first big setbacks and injuries, how you said obviously, you know, it is it's super difficult.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it in with the perspective now, it doesn't take away from the fact that at the time that you're going through it is is super tough.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's brutal for most people.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you were still in and around the environment of people training, right?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Still going to be around.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that was that was partly the issue.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a bit more nuanced to just having these injuries.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was originally diagnosed with a femoral stress response as opposed to fracture.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in hindsight, it was an awful decision, but I was essentially given the green flag to go to Poch, which is an altitude place in in South Africa, in January.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I literally had it out there on crutches, didn't run a single step for the four weeks I was there, um, and had a had a horrible time, in all honesty.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're surrounded by these world-class athletes all starting their journey towards the Olympics, running around everywhere, and there you are having to be taken to the gym once or twice a day to sit on a bike by yourself, um, to not really have an arm around your shoulder or any support.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I really struggled that camp, and I wish at the time I'd been told going to a camp, an altitude camp with a stress response or fracture really shouldn't be advised.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I was so new and novel to that situation, and I was just so intent on doing what I could do when I could do it.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: So once that day arrived when I could bike, I was straight out on the bike.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Once I could get back in the gym, I was straight back in the gym because I was so desperate.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was probably knew I had to chase it a little bit.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: I remember speaking to Keely in Poch, and she said, if you have a clean run from here till summer, you'll be fine, but you can't miss a day, sort of thing.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I knew that, so I think I did everything I could to make sure I was doing all I can, but inevitably that was too much.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I was I was I'm slightly frustrated I was pushed towards going to Potch, um if I'm honest, and I don't think I was given a full and transparent picture by people at the time who knew about these injuries, about what it can do to you physically and mentally, and then a lot of people who know about the risk of um having another injury once you return from your first major one, um, and that's when you are at most risk because you've not loaded you know your lower body for two or three months, and then you're going straight into loading it again, and you need to be so cautious and careful on overloading it and not doing too much.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I think I wasn't um I don't think I was helped to the best of people's ability in that return.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, being told I could go back to Poch again in April, and then being told I could go straight back to St.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maritz.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: These environments are a lot harsher, your recovery's slower, you know, you're you're more fatigued because of the altitude or the heat, uh, the stress on your body is greater, and all of those things into account can just, you know, wear you down a bit more than you would if you were just sat at home on the sofa.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's a time I look back on and know there are lots of mistakes made from myself and others, but at the end of the day, I'm the one who has to face the consequences and deal with them and take it on the on the chin and learn and move forward.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's it's really it is really tough because and I like I I understand you probably you know I I can I can feel that you hold back from saying you know the decisions that are made, right?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um but do you think that that a lot of that comes down to different measures of success of you and those that are making decisions?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because it was it was basically like British athletics that you know the the the brutal nature of of needing you to perform as well.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is that where it gets blurry on the injury side?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you have to take into account every injury is different, every person reacts differently mentally and physically, every injury has its own uniqueness that shouldn't just be compared to someone else's foremoral stress fracture, you know.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes people are grouped into okay, this is the injury, this is the plan to return to it, and it's sort of a copy and paste job.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people with injuries will will find that's happened to them.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's hard because you really need someone to understand you and your body to give you a really clear, independent plan return that's specific for you.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that was lacking at the time, and because I hadn't had any of those injuries, I didn't have any of my own experiences from previous injuries to draw upon where I could go actually going to altitude now probably isn't the best idea, um, and and little things like that.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that athlete care individually is incredibly hard because when you have so many people on funding, you can't offer that time and expertise to every single person in that same way because they that you know it's they don't have the money and the ex um and the and the people to be able to afford that and do that, so it's really hard.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I never had an issue with anyone, the people, and I I've met some brilliant people, but sometimes there was a misunderstandings or lack of communication from from both sides, myself included, and I take full responsibility on that.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: But it was one of those I remember being diagnosed with my um tibia stress response, and and in the meeting of sort of having the results and putting a plan in place of what do we do from here, people were saying, Oh, well, some so and so had the exact same thing.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so and so said, Oh, have you done any calf loading since coming back for your femur?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: I said, No, I've been focused on hip and glute stuff because I've been told I need to strengthen that area, and they were like, Oh, well, you should have been doing this, and it was little things like that that's great, great you know, in the moment, in the moment, and you know, that's two and a half years ago, but you'll never forget those moments because they really do stick with you.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that really hit me.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: And again, being so inexperienced in those situations meant I didn't have my own leg to stand on.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, literally, I couldn't stand on my own leg, but I didn't have a leg to stand on and say, clap back and say, Oh, well, I should be doing this, I should be doing that.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that was hard for me, and now I know if I'm in that situation again, thankfully, uh hopefully I'm not, that I can you know stand up and almost say to myself, I should do this, I should do that, and and so on.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my coaches are brilliant coaches, but have brilliant coaches, and obviously I've run brilliant with you, but they relied heavily on on the support and guidance from British Athletics, and I think as a team we probably relied too heavy, um but at the end of the day you put your trust fully into them.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not you know giving them results in return, which at the end of the day it's a results-driven business, they're they're not gonna you know put all that time and effort into you, which is completely understandable.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think and and you have to you have to trust someone, right?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: And especially if it's your first time going through it, then there are these you know, people of authority and expertise, and yeah, and you know, especially like you say, with injuries, so many factors at play.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you could even see, especially stress fractures jumping like online, there's the whole stress fractured gate on Instagram like a few months back, and it's people jumping up there, you're out on your bike, you're doing this, you know.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, who's told you this?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're going through it, like there's a conversation between you and your physio or your coach or whoever's you know doing the um the uh you know the trip out to any of the training camps, and yeah, it's it's uh it's never simple, it's never simple, right?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, um no.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do you in those situations because I have I've had similar like similar experience with the NCAA and it was eventually why why I left there?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it is that like okay, I'll probably I'll be better off on on my own or at least with a private physio, someone that can go just purely based off my measures that I want at the moment.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: How do you um keep that trust within yourself?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: How do you how did you navigate those situations?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a great question.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I would say in some ways I didn't really navigate them because I kept coming down with injuries and was struggling a fair bit mentally and obviously physically, but I relied a lot on my friends in Loughborough at the time who really put an arm around me and carried me through those tough times.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I've said uh something before where it in cycling all the fans watch at the top of the mountain because that's where everything happens, that's where the glory is.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the work that's done in the valley where the hard yards are made, the hard hard grafts is needed, and the teammates all help each other, that's when the support really matters, and and that's where you need it most.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes people get drawn into worrying about the people at the top, and they can easily celebrate with them and enjoy all their success without looking down the mountain and seeing who's at the bottom and needs help reaching the top, and having a great group of friends and having my coaches stick by me with 100% certainty that I one day get back to being the athlete I was, and by no means am I anywhere near the yet, but they still have complete faith in me and belief in me, and to still have that from them and my friends gives me the self-belief and maybe fake confidence or false confidence that maybe I can do that, and there's definitely been loads of times when I've doubted that, um, and I still do doubt that um a fair bit, but if I didn't have one percent of me that believed, then you know I'd be wasted in this sport, and there'd be no point in me being here.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: You got um you quoted Shaw Shank Redemption in your in your interview.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Could you go through does that play a part in what you're talking about here?
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's it?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a bit here.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happens when the lights are on your face.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on, hold on, hold on, wait.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um oh my gosh.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're gonna have to give it to me.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've gone completely blank.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hope hope's a good thing.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hope's a good thing, maybe the best of thing, and no good thing ever dies.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: There we go.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, yeah.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I I genuinely believe you have to have hope.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have hope, there's no point in tying up the laces going for a run.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because what do you have if you don't have hope?
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's been hard because there, like I said in that interview, there have been so many times where I lost that hope and I've relied on people to give me that hope back and inject a bit of hope into me.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's I I like hope.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great thing.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, it's a great movie as well.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought it was pretty well.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's my it's my brother's favourite.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's my brother's favourite.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh you've got good taste, yeah.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think I watched it as my final time going back out to the States to go and collect my things, which was a very expensive moving out weekend.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: I bet, I bet.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I watched it on the play out there, I'm like, I see what people are talking about.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is yeah, this is an epic film.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a story, isn't it?
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: Those the doubts that you talk about, um how do they come about?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, looking back, you know that you they are like fleeting or maybe not true, um, or maybe you know you make sure you might still have them now.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: What are the what are the signs that you don't know how how did they manifest in in your head?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um they manifested from reality, I suppose, because I couldn't run.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I tried running, I would I I was injured and I missed a whole year and struggled getting back, and as soon as I got back, I was sure we might get onto the I got knocked down again.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was the constant getting knocked down when I thought I'd got over the worst, I think, which is what really got to me.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think individually, each injury I'm really proud of myself that I was able to dig deep and navigate and come out the other side, but it was literally that final hurdle or that would always get me and knock me down and send me back to the start.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's the thing that definitely hit me the most.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's where I'd I'd lose that sort of hope.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are able to break each injury down and focus on each day and take it day by day, and not look too far ahead and not get too bogged down of, oh, I can't run for the next three months, rather than okay, what can I do tomorrow?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: When's the first time I can take my boot off?
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: When can I do my first bike ride?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: When can I do my first run walk and have these little milestones along the way that don't appear too too daunting and something that feels like a tangible improvement and step forward, even though in the grand scheme of things there's so much further to go.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if you if you look too far ahead, you'll get lost in in the present and taking it day by day was an amazing bit of advice I actually got from Neil Gorley talking about his injuries, and that's something I still do to this day.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny, normally I used to get my training blocks for a month, um, but in the last two years, every month I've been set, I've never got to the end of the month without something interrupting it or something bringing me down.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: So now we just keep it week by week, day by day, and have a lot, you know, better perspective on looking far ahead and not being too overwhelmed with what might be in the future.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that is the it's the so that's so tough, especially when you you are coming back from another injury, then another one hits.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um after after the uh tibia, can you go into because that's you know we're we're talking mid mid-2024.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then and then we can revisit like those processes that you have because I think yeah, bringing a horizons close to you and a lot of the time injury is it's this how to navigate uncertainty more than more than anything.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'd I'd love to go more into depth of when to trust the process and when to abandon it as well.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, before we kind of chat about that, could you go into yeah, continue the timeline um after that summer?
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, yeah, so 2024 was obviously pretty rubbish uh to put it to put it lightly.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I went into 20 the end of 2024 feeling pretty good, strung a couple months training from October, November into December.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, and then um end of December, um actually had some life issues, uh, the passing of my grandfather and uh the end of a uh quite a long-term relationship, which hit me really hard because I always sort of viewed life in in sort of if running's 50% and life is the other 50%, when one gets knocked down, the other's always been there to pick it back up.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: And for that entire 2024, running had been knocked down, but my friends and family and life had had been there to keep me afloat and keep me going.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whereas you know, within the space of a week, that had been totally flipped on its head, and it felt like life was at zero percent, but running was the only thing in that moment that was keeping me afloat.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I was struggling, you know, I I had a really tough Christmas in 2024 um with my parents out in South Africa um and me being alone for Christmas.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: My sister thankfully came back for Christmas Day, and we had a lovely Christmas, and I actually flew out to South Africa on boxing date because I just had to had to get out of Canterbury in the country.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um and two days later, I I had a sore Achilles, and I think the stress, anxiety, not sleeping well, not eating well, I'd actually forced myself to run less because I knew I was going to be in a bit of trouble, but I I just think my body was just broken.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that led to a new injury, um and and yet again headed to Potch with an injury, and you're thinking, Oh, here we go again.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um ended up getting a scan in Potch and what I thought was an Achilles issue tended to be a navicular stress fracture.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even though I didn't have any pain or anything.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, for anyone who's had one of them, it's it's a brutal one.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, your foot, if you can't use your foot, you can't use your leg, and it your foot tends to get a lot less blood flow, and the healing process of that um bone can take a lot longer.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was a worry, and yeah, I remember being called into the the physio's room and basically seeing a boot on on the sides and being told that's for you and uh we're also sending you home on a flight tomorrow.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that was two weeks into 2025, and I thought 2024 was bad, but had again the hope that 2025 would be better, and within two weeks I was you know back to all the thoughts and feelings I thought I got rid of in 2024.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, that that was it.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think those from then onwards, um, from sort of January almost through to maybe June were probably the hardest three, four months of of my life because like I said, with the life running sort of 50%, now running was zero percent, yeah, and life was zero percent, and and it was just yeah, I was in a really bad way and a really bad place, and essentially had nothing to live for was at a stretch, but nothing to to get me up in the mornings.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I'd be in pain and I was unaware of this this injury I had because the symptoms weren't matching the what was on a an MRI report and was on the in in the unknown and was just sort of living life day to day, not really knowing what I could do, what I couldn't do.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the only thing I knew I couldn't do was run and I and I couldn't maybe you know spend the time with it with the people I wanted to.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it it was a really tough time.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can look back on it now and say that and sort of smile that I got through it, and and I can you know maybe have a couple jokes, etc., with it, but it it really, in all honesty, it really wasn't anything to joke about during that time, yeah.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and definitely had some really tough nights and and dark days, and yeah, went on for quite a while because I was also living by myself, which again for anyone, yeah, if you're going through a time like that, yeah, living by yourself is is actually quite dangerous, um, if I'm honest, it it's not a good place to be in.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it was yeah, troubling times.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I managed to get through them.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you might ask how or what did you do, whatever.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just gradually, if it was half a percent every day, felt a bit better, and over the course of three, four months that turns into 20-30% better, and then you start to see maybe some light at the end of the tunnel.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that was finding out I needed surgery on on my navicula, um, which would be in August.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: But by that time, I knew where the finish line was, I knew where the light at the end of the tunnel would hopefully arise, and I could sort of you know be happy with that and accepting of it, and and I was actually able to enjoy quite a nice summer because of it.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mate, that's uh it's yeah, it's so difficult.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's um yeah, and I'm not the only person to have ever gone through that, and people will also go through things that are far worse, but yeah, for for myself as an individual, that that was a tough time, but it also allowed me to think a lot, reflect a lot, uh paint a new perspective, and hopefully come out the other side all the better for it.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the um especially as you say, there is that added level of living on your own, and you can probably underestimate like I've lived my own for a bit.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know my dad how do you find it living by yourself?
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I was kind so at the moment I'm I just I live at home, my my mum and stepdad said now it's now it's cool, but I pretty much I felt like I lived on my own.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was either living with my mate and his girlfriend or living on my own in my final year at uni up in Durham.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I was I was going through a patch of injury as well.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'd come back from you know the previous September I was I was out for seven months, then I came back race for two.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was out for another three, and then I did another injury out for another three.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was like it's it just I think you can underestimate how quickly you can spiral.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it is it just also depends where you are in your life in terms of perspective or being able to notice when you are in a negative headspace.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also it's it's that social element as well.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is there's a there's a balance like you've like you've mentioned, going on the camps and saying like this is probably the worst place you could be because you've got all these people around you competing and they're also getting the attention, right?
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is I remember in those times I would only have my running as my social really because I think almost all of my mates have done a year abroad and I wanted to go down to the track, I wanted to go down because that was where my social was, but at the same time, there is then that that double-edged sword of like it's also a reminder that I'm not running, yeah.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I think that it is did you notice any things in your life that that were um sort of indicators that you were struggling or this isn't normal for me?
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um personally, my my most difficult period has happened outside of running and outside of injury and happened since leaving school until maybe my second year of uni, which was just preceding my first long-term injury, and everything was in my own head, and it was it seemed very much it was really kind of it's really kind of complex, but nothing to do with running so much.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually asked, it's kind of the irony of asking for these situations, is I wish that it wasn't all in my head and I had a physical thing to focus on.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then a couple couple weeks later I decided to do a backflip at a mate's 21st, and then that's when I bruised the bone in my like talus on my foot, and then that's what put me out for like eight months.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so yeah, for me, what's what's the thing that like is an indicator?
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think an indicator is a sense of a lack of presence is uh living in my head and not being able to pay attention to what's right in front of me in the moment.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the this kind of saturation of experience and the the thoughts are are taking over, and it might be more um more about thinking about the future in the past than being in the present.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and then another one is probably just a feeling of numbness.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not necessarily that I feel really down or sad, it's just that you're not really feeling anything.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: And those are things that I look at and I said, Okay, well, I I want to be able to feel all of this going through it, and those are probably the indicators that like that's that's the sparks, the sparks gone, and you're sitting there and you're like, I could do this, I could do this, but ultimately I'm completely indifferent.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that numbness is very common, and and I'm sure a lot of people would have probably felt it um themselves because you yeah, you just don't have that that get up and go, you don't have that desire to go and do something to to really care about it either.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I spent a lot of time almost looking back of oh I loved it two or three years ago in Lothb.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't it be like that?
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't these people still be here?
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_00: I struggle with a lot of people of uh moving to London as well, graduating, and some of my friends not being around.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So so you just you're sort of like, oh, the past was so good.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Can I go back to that?
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's gone, you know, you have to move on, you have to deal with it, you have to look forward and worry about how you're feeling now.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And gradually, once you get used to that and do that a bit more, it becomes a bit easier.
• 1:10:20
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have have you worked with a sports psychologist?
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Did you work with any sort of therapist, anything on the the mental and emotional side to to either vent or reframe what you're going through?
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I was seeing the sports psychologists provided by British Ath British Athletics, great guy called Julani.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um he's very much focused and and sort of his job is is sports performance, so it's it's not a it's sort of how you feel competing, how you feel training, confidence, that sort of stuff.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: But he was really good in sort of bringing out positive emotions and feelings and changing those negative thoughts into positive ones and how I could try and do them, and you know, you sat there looking at him, drawing on a whiteboard, thinking this is a load of rubbish, but it does help.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I and I think I probably was a bit closed off and never did therapy.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I it it sounds bad this, but I always felt if I couldn't sort myself out myself, I couldn't rely on someone who didn't know me or understand my story to be able to do it for me.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that's exactly why people need therapy because you can't do it yourself.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I think yeah, I was I always had this feeling of when you're lying in bed in bed awake at two in the morning, no one else in the world is lying in bed awake two in the morning thinking about you, thinking, Oh, I wonder if Matt's awake at the moment.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: How's he feeling at the moment?
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's had a tough time, and I think that would always get to me of like I had to be the person to change that, I had to be the person to help Matt, you know, sort of look at myself from the outside and treat myself as my own psychologist and therapist, which I I'm not advocating at all.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's probably the wrong thing to do, but at the moment that's how I sort of saw myself, and the only other thing I did, which I'm really proud of and really helped me was I did a lot of writing, um, a lot of writing stuff down, thoughts and feelings, and a lot of that stuff will will never see the light of day, and we'll just sit in a notes page, and you know, maybe two, three years I might look back at it and go, Wow, jeez, I can't believe you said that or thought that, or why why did you write that?
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I I did do a lot of that because I had so much time um and so much time to think.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in some ways, I actually listened to a recent podcast um with Christian Horner, who obviously got sacked from Red Bull, lost a job, whatever, and he was also talking about having the time to think, and all of a sudden you're not able to do anything, you don't have a job to do, you you you sat at home, or for him it would be going on dog walks, and you can just think about things that in in normal regular day-to-day you would you would never have the time to maybe think of, and and I think sometimes you can almost unlock a piece of your brain that has a little more emotion or compassion or empathy or care than you maybe previously thought you had.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I was I was gonna ask about the about the journaling because I that's that's where my that's kind of when I started as well maybe four or five years ago.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that was that was one of the things that it just allows you to to distance and and also yeah, you can look back on and you know what you were you're experiencing it going through it, right?
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's um yeah, you can you can get a bit of that emotional distance but also see the reality of the situation.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um did you have a uh go on.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, continue, continue.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, did you have a a specific practice?
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Was it just literally writing down anything that came into your head, or did you have a process for the journaling?
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I essentially had a diary of of of my week where I'd write everything that happened in my week, and then at the end of the week I'd give myself a score out of ten.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, again, what did what did ten represent?
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: When you're a fantasy a fantasy, okay, I I guess, because it was never something I've reached, and maybe even today uh and now I'm in a great spot, had a brilliant weekend, uh, and I still probably would always search for something more, which is is not right, but I wouldn't I wouldn't maybe want maybe the maybe my first race back at Watford that week would would be a 10.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um but no, I think I think I just did it so I could sort of look back and initially when I started doing it, and I was giving myself two, three, two and a half, and I I wanted to reach a point where I was like, oh, if I can give myself a five out of ten, I'm I'm so happy with that, and give yourself six.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then gradually, without really thinking, one week I I had a week away with some friends in Mallorca, and I was like, oh, that that might be an eight or a nine.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and without thinking about it, you're like, oh, and then the week after there's a six or seven, and all of a sudden it's you stream three, four weeks together, and it's it's like a it's like a striker when he's in confidence, he's just banging goals in.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like that's an yeah, seven out of ten, seven out of ten, seven out of ten.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously you might have the yeah, you might have the the blank where you go off, you know, you get substituted early doors and you lose the game, and it's a four out of ten.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_00: But but if you can bank the good ones, then one bad one is never gonna is impact you too much or or or bring you too down.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was just the consistency of having these these low, I guess they're imaginary scores in some way that when I look back and I think, oh yeah, no, I I was struggling.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um but no, I just enjoyed and had the time to write and sort of convey the those feelings to myself, but it wasn't until I did my first run last um November coming back from the surgery, which is my first run since January, and I finished the run and I thought I could post some photos or video here of me running on Instagram, and it's great, and it'll get some nice interactions, but that's not true.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_00: That that that's not a true reflection of what I've been through the last year and two years, and I didn't want people thinking it's just as easy as you go through all of that and you go for your run and you're smiling and you're happy.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I ended up just writing like a a page or two pages, I think, on sort of the journey and and just just put it out there and and got some nice feedback and comments and replies, and I think people were just um appreciative to see the other side to it.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it sounds bad this you you you see the influences influences and stuff nowadays, and often there's a there's an image that they have to portray, and you'll see them do a marathon or whatever, and they might cry in the marathon and upload the video of them crying, but there's no context behind it.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_00: They might say I had a tough training or I was really struggling, but I was I didn't want to I wanted to be able to actually tell people what it meant and and why it meant that rather than just put a video out there, but but influencing is a is a completely different that's a different sport, it's a different, you know, um job.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I'm not saying you know, doing all that stuff and they should do a lot more writing and in-depth or whatever because that's not their job, but I I didn't I felt wrong, if that makes sense, just putting a video up and be running.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I think when you've had you know such a such a ride of it.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um writing in those in those times you don't know what's going to come next.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that that's the best uh thing, if it's the writing, if it's uh the putting in the uh work on the cross trainer or pivoting a bit of uh life and being able to go out to sports events.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we live life forwards and there is a lot of uh uncertainty, be it positive or or perceived perceivably negative.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: But that is the the beauty of uh writing, especially in the present moment, is that you can string these together and then you can once you get the success, then you can see what it is.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: But even so, I mean it's like these conversations are uh really valuable to understand more about it.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: It still doesn't unpack the no the the lived experience.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it would take it and it never will, yeah, it never will, and everyone has their own everyone has their own stories, and that's why I I do enjoy hearing them.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's funny you me you mentioned the writing.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think when I wrote something on New Year's Eve last year of you know, 2024 was bad, but 2025 was even harder, and I didn't think that was possible.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I ended up writing about things that had gone really well for the year, and it was just in that moment I thought, you know what?
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've had an awful year, had surgery, lived alone, been bad, damn bad, not raced.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm writing from a place of you know happiness and contentness, and subconsciously I didn't even think about that, and it was just like uh I read it, I was like, oh, well, maybe I actually am in a better position than I think.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that perspective sort of had that full circle moment of everything's bad, everything's rubbish, I can't do this, I can't do that.
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_00: To you know, this year was awful, but these these moments shone through, and these are what carried me through to the end of the year, and that's when I ended up um writing the the substack um after my first race back.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Literally the week of it, I was just writing a a single page of you've finally done it, blah blah blah, you've been through the three years of this, this, and this.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then just like each night I kept sort of adding to it a tiny bit, tiny bit, and before I knew it, I had like 20 pages of the last three years all together, and then I thought, yeah, well, that's a bit long to read, no one wants to read that, and then um I left it in my just in my notes, and it sort of been through it and put it up into these chapters starting from that Eurocross when I I'd got that femoral stress fracture, and I sat on it for a month just not knowing if I was ever going to release it, if I ever wanted people to read it, if I ever wanted anyone to see it, and it just keep it to myself, and I wasn't sure people might be you know hurt by things I say about them, or is calling out or speaking of BA a good look, or you know, have I mentioned this person enough?
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Have I not mentioned have it do I do names?
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and I was just in my head over and over for a month overthinking everything and becoming a bit anxious with it, and then I just thought, you know what?
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_00: If there's one person who maybe reads it and enjoys it, then it's worth it, and no one has to read it, you know, it's it's totally up to them.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I just thought maybe I just put something on, and you got some nice interactions, which was really nice.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's nice to know people share the same situations and you are not alone in those situations.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a bit naive and could be almost be a bit cocky to think, oh no, my year was way worse than yours, or I've had three years, you've only had two years of bad luck, or I've had three years.
• 1:22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, you know, everyone has their own issues, everyone goes through their own things and their struggles, and it doesn't matter how long or how bad they are, people can relate and and hopefully feed off them and learn from them.
• 1:22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sharing that sort of information I I would appreciate it if if someone else did it and I could read it, so maybe I could do the same.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the the that comparison game, I don't think that's played between people that genuinely understand what what it takes and what the situation is.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I it's probably quite flippant if you were to try and compare and and even you know, I'll be chatting to to someone maybe down at the gym that's injured for they've been injured for a couple of weeks, and they're talking to me who's you know been out since I went to the States in what like start 2024, and it's they're like, Oh, you know, they'll say, Oh, but it's nothing like your situation.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, No, because you've never been injured before.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when six weeks was an absolute nightmare, and actually worse than six months or a few years, you know, overall.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it is you know, it's not really comparable.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that those the people that really engage in it are not the ones, especially posting it on something like Substack, it's not you're not gonna get hounded on Instagram by bots and stuff.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You actually have to click the link, so you actually have to want to see it.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you feel you filter out the ones that are just playing that like zero-sum game, you know.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I totally agree.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I with some friends, it's quite funny.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, a good friend of mine recently got diagnosed with a stress response grade one, and they were obviously incredibly upset and and actually on crutches and quite damn bad.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Grade one, is that it?
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be running in a couple weeks, but obviously, like you're joking and you're like, is that it?
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine, but but then it's amazing because they are down bad, and you realise that yes, you've been through what you're through, but for them that that's still bad, and that's still a big knock of confidence, and you know, proof that they're not invincible and that that there's some challenging times.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_00: But everyone that I see who does pick up injuries, and I'm sure you would probably say the same about yourself, is once you do get through them and come out the other side, not to say you come out the other side and run well, but just survive them.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_00: You you are you are better for it, you are strengthened.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe for you by the time you had your third, fourth injury, yeah, it just scratches the surface.
• 1:24:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it doesn't even you're just like, okay, all right, what have I got to do now?
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than breaking down, crying, not leaving bed for the next two, three days.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think those experiences and going through those tough times do make you more robust and resilient to deal with the challenges that will eventually lie ahead.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it is it's an interesting one, like from my experience.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_01: There are some times where like I've had surgery at the start of this year, um, where you know I'm on um they've real they decide they realign my shin, is what they did.
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_01: So they I had the most recent injury that I've had is like a well it's not most recent now because I've done something else, but uh it was like track tracking, like mal tracking of the patella, which I've had before, and it just doesn't slide into the groove.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the patella doesn't Did that come from an impact injury or just I had it um I've had naturally my kneecap sits a little bit high in the groove.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this back in my third year at uni, and it was a little bit of a Cesaw injury from a patella like tendinopathy on the other side, right?
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I just sorted it out by um you know loosen up the quad, strengthen the glute, pretty simple, and then it just released the tension on the outside of the the kneecap and allowed it to slot back in and it was fine.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I had a lot of complications out in the States where I got put on pretty heavy anti-inflammatories for an Achilles problem for three months, came off the anti-inflammatories, found out that the knee was hurting, but then I also had a nodicular stress fracture in the left.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and so did a load of rehab, and then the way that it pretty much was was just they did like a tibial osteotomy.
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the kneecap sat high and out, so they brought the shin, you know, shave shaved it off, cut it out, moved it a across and down, and then screwed it back in so that now the kneecap tracks into the groove.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Jeez.
• 1:26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so but but it's but it's so fascinating.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_00: How long how long for you was the recovery like if again a three, four months of not doing yeah?
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this was um was this end of Jan this year.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was walking again with a heavily atrophied quad.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous.
• 1:27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I bet I it was just six weeks because it ended up being a really bad bone injury.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So cause because all it was was the the recovery from the surgery itself being really quite invasive, but ultimately they've just broken my leg and then screwed it back in.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it was it was kind of like a broken.
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_00: So do you have screws in your leg now?
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_01: So and they haven't.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And are they are they for are they for eternal, eternal?
• 1:27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Unless if if they cause me problems after 12 months, so in a couple of months' time, I can get them removed.
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if they don't, then it's then it's okay.
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I I got discharged on that side for um bar in July.
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I was then I then took to the scheme.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_01: This was my ended up being a problem.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I was about to say, you're about to enter your Hyrux era.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh mate, I could I could pivot.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: If I could if I could run I could pivot.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think you'd be you'd be good.
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_01: I've been working at a gym as well, so just nice and strong.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then came another issue, which was I sat and did the seated ski oak for an hour a day for a couple of months, um, with one leg in the brace, and then I'm sorry to anyone that's listening that I coach that has heard this story so many times.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I then ended up developing a quad tendon tear in my left side because all I was doing was putting pressure on my left foot sitting down, right?
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I was a week into running after the surgery in at the end of May, picked up this quad tear, and I was like, oh, that feels bad.
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm currently like, was it like four, four or five months in, and it flared up last week again, which is like the point that I was kind of getting to, I don't want to debate this all about all about me nor regurgitate a story.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know you haven't heard, yeah.
• 1:29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, it's it is fortunately surgery knee good, has been fine on some runs that I've done.
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_01: This quad tendon just isn't quite healed and will take maybe another couple of months potentially um to to heal and doing some like rehab for it.
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_01: But uh there's not really a correlation that I found between emotionally what gets to me and the extreme circumstance.
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_01: So surgery, and I put I put it down to expectations.
• 1:29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the surgery I knew that I was gonna be out for for six well, the first two weeks I knew it was gonna be hell because it's so painful, and I've just got to do rehab four times a day, I've got to nutrition and the rest of it, and just make sure I get sleep in.
• 1:30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was back to work like two weeks in because I'm also like self-employed.
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm paying for the surgery and it's all very expensive, and then also kind of like working a bit, but I knew that I would be out and not be able to run.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever I can loosen my grip on the expectations of being able to run, then it's alright.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I get zoomed in naturally into being like, right, this is going well, and you get pulled into maybe planning out, like you say, you just it's accepting the situation, only planning out the next week.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the return to run plan is quite fun to plan just for a bit of fun, yeah.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to see the progression, and like last week, nothing like that first Strava curve up, yeah.
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So mine's gone up to eight miles, and then another one at eight miles, and then last week was one mile, and I'm like, I'll probably have a couple of weeks, and these conversations it takes me out of the situation, um, but during it, it's I get there are there's it's all about expectations for me and about how much I'm pinning my hopes on the future and reality matching how I see it.
• 1:31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um but there's a fine fine line because I want to care and I want to do the stuff that's gonna make it make it most likely to get back because mine also has been a walking pain for three years rather than just like running, so it's just like day to day, which is why I ended up forking out of the surgery.
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, even if I can't run at a high level, this is bugging me, like walking downstairs, kind of thing.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's something about walking in pain, which I know too well about, unfortunately, at the age of you know, 22, 23, 24, that is incredibly scary.
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because if there's one thing in your life around that age, you should be so mobile, active, healthy, fit, and I that that can really also hit you hard because you know, like she's this is me at 23, 24, what am I gonna be at?
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_00: 34, 44, let alone 60, 74.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, yeah, that's why for me, obviously getting the surgery just to be able to not be pain-free, and for you is it is a relief in a way, and you're almost excited, aren't you, to be, you know, I just can't just can't wait to just be pain-free.
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you almost with something like surgery, you're almost looking forward to it, seeing it as a line in the sand and something you can start afresh afterwards.
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas sometimes you get injuries that sort of niggle or or last a bit longer, and that you don't think they're too bad initially, but three, four weeks down the line you're still suffering from it.
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Those can be the ones that can really get to you because you don't have a a strict timeline on them.
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that comes under the category of that.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you trust and continue or do you pivot with the process?
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, have you had that along your journey where you know that surgery call was that one where you where you say, right, this is it, or I guess you it's so many different injuries.
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I think this finding out I needed surgery was was actually a relief.
• 1:33:15
  SPEAKER_00: It just felt like the end of this awful chapter, felt like the end of this horror movie, and waking up from surgery with a cast on would be the opportunity to start afresh in life and in running.
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I really I worked actually with the psychologist of almost using this, calling it chapter two, and moving on from the troubles I'd had and being able to open, you know, open new eyes to this world and see everything through a new lens.
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think hearing I needed the surgery really helped, but similarly to you, I found out I had this fracture in January and had the surgery in August.
• 1:33:56
  SPEAKER_00: So up until June, really, I was in this limbo of not knowing what I could do, what I couldn't do.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_00: There was some pretty shocking communication on people's ends again that I wasn't finding out the results I needed to hear, and that can also play on your mind.
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for anyone with an injury as well, with a niggle, really try and get to the the root cause of it and find out what it is and invest in the physio.
• 1:34:23
  SPEAKER_00: If it's necessary, invest in the scan because once you get a clear picture, even if it's a stress fraction, you know you're going to be out for three months, there's a clarity and an opportunity to then start from scratch and build back towards it.
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you're not sure, you try a run one day and then it's sore the next day, then you wait three days, try again, and sometimes you're just in this position of you don't know what's wrong, what you can, what you can't do, and often that drags out the process much longer.
• 1:34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it with injuries, and I've been fortunate enough to be able to have access to scans and good medical care and physios, but I think that's one thing for people really try and get to the bottom of your issue because also once something happens once the likelihood of it happening again is significantly higher.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that putting a financial value and understanding really what it's for as well is something that you can weigh up.
• 1:35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if you're fortunate to have support, be it financial funding or or connections, maybe to speed run you to the local, you know, knee or foot specialist.
• 1:35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then you know and I've been incredibly privileged in that position to see some of the world's best and have full faith in that, knowing they're gonna sort me out and gonna have my best interests at play.
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I have had some issues with BA in the past, but the amount of issues that I've caused them significantly outweigh outweigh that.
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I'm incredibly thankful of having that support and private healthcare and access to scans and doctors, etc.
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's hope that they didn't turn off at 35 minutes in and uh the uh yeah, the disclaimer put that at the start and then just I don't care.
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fair enough.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um why did it take so long between January and August?
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um what was the because initially I had a bad Achilles um but then got put in this boot for this navicular stress fracture that I wasn't in any pain with.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um came out in the boot four weeks later and obviously hadn't moved my Achilles once.
• 1:36:37
  SPEAKER_00: So came out of the boot and my Achilles was just cooked, like, and I still didn't have any pain in this stress fracture.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So then we got to thinking, okay, well, let's sort out the thing that's actually causing pain.
• 1:36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Had one injection with a bit of local to determine if this was the site of issue, and I walked around for the next 10 minutes completely pain-free, running up and down HiPax, like this is brilliant.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just like, and then we realized what the issue was, and it was a plantaris issue, which is a tendon that runs alongside the Achilles, it was basically um rubbing and causing friction.
• 1:37:11
  SPEAKER_00: But my time in the boot had caused these fibers to stick to each other.
• 1:37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when I came out of the boot, my just my Achilles and plantaris tendon just weren't moving or gliding.
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I had two austeno injections, which is essentially like a lubricant to to break a couple of the fibers and then allows free movement, and that works um pretty well.
• 1:37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I had to have a second one, but after the second one, I worked pretty well.
• 1:37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I literally, like I said, think light at the end of the tunnel, ran for two weeks, and then um during some gym testing, some carf isometric testing, um, went into my left one and as I was pushing, just felt my navicular just totally just give way.
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Just felt like someone had sort of shot my foot, like a just cut it open.
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um that navicular stress fracture site, um, which had been flagged up in January, uh, turns out it was actually like a crack, um, a hole on the edge of the bone.
• 1:38:14
  SPEAKER_00: But it was very complicated, and I had to go off for more a CT scan and then another scan which involves some radioactive dye and some thing far too complicated for me to even worry about.
• 1:38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it just the whole process of just lengthy, but essentially, if we'd injected the Achilles the day after the Achilles was painful and realized what the issue was, that four to six weeks could have been solved immediately.
• 1:38:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then if I had the navicular issue later on, then we could have addressed that.
• 1:38:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, moral of the story: if you get a scan for something sore, focus on the bit that's sore because you might have some ailments somewhere else.
• 1:38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I can promise you to anyone who runs, you will have some inflammation or some bone bruising somewhere.
• 1:39:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's not causing pain, crack on, focus on the thing that hurts.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the moral of the story.
• 1:39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and I think I think that is, you know, it sounds simple, but the thing is when you go deep into all of these, especially the um the site like the psychological side of it, where you are a little bit more attune to to the to the injuries, to the sights, to you know, understandably you want to prevent it happening or you want to see it as it comes up quickly, you're gonna be a little bit more the alarm system's gonna be a little bit more sensitive.
• 1:39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, it is it, and that's the only that's the downside of maybe I call it and I did it uh two weeks ago when I thought that I might have retorn this quad tendon because it was just like the flare-up's really painful, is like it it makes it feel like I've done it again.
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, when did I last have this feeling?
• 1:39:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, oh, it was in June, and I'm like, ah shit.
• 1:40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I just went and got what I call a reassurer scan, uh, which is you know, you just go and get it.
• 1:40:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reassured.
• 1:40:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're a braver man than me.
• 1:40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was but then but obviously it's it's me being like this year I'm forking out so much of my money on this on this surgery at the start of the year.
• 1:40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I also don't have to go and see the consultant for the knee anymore, so I'm saving a load of money each month.
• 1:40:29
  SPEAKER_01: So don't get me started on consultants, five five minutes of your of your time and whack you a 250 quid bill.
• 1:40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, honestly.
• 1:40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know they're good at what they do, but is it worth that?
• 1:40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just you know I think once once you go through the the surgery, it's kind of yeah, it's part of you have to, you have to, yeah, yeah.
• 1:40:51
  SPEAKER_01: What you're gonna do at that point.
• 1:40:52
  SPEAKER_01: They've got you, they've got you, yeah.
• 1:40:54
  SPEAKER_01: They do, yeah.
• 1:40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, I think it's tough that that limbo, the uncertainty, bit the those conversations, um and then the like perspective.
• 1:41:09
  SPEAKER_01: So during that how do you how do you go through that those that limbo period where you have a lack of information?
• 1:41:19
  SPEAKER_00: You just you don't try and not get too bogged down on it and try and not let it consume you, which again a lot easier said than done.
• 1:41:27
  SPEAKER_00: You wake up in the morning, walk down the stairs.
• 1:41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Is my foot sore today?
• 1:41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, that's another day it's sore.
• 1:41:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's little things like that that immediately you're in a bad mood or feeling down and negative.
• 1:41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just finding little things day to day that you enjoy, um finding moments that you can look forward to that are maybe a week or two weeks away.
• 1:41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's incredibly hard, I think.
• 1:41:54
  SPEAKER_00: That perspective, if you can realign it, um think about it.
• 1:41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Having that time to think, I think is very important as well.
• 1:42:02
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be able to reflect and think about how you are feeling.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's different, you know, for I say a regular person with a regular nine to five job, if you get injured, you know, you can go to work and from nine to five you occupy and your occupied your minds elsewhere.
• 1:42:20
  SPEAKER_00: You come home, you cook dinner, and maybe you're upset for the evening, but you go to bed.
• 1:42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas, you know, for a for a professional athlete who their you know their day revolves around training, recovery, etc., you've got nothing to train for.
• 1:42:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can't recover because you don't know what the injury is, or you know it's an injury that isn't going to get any better, so you don't really have anything to do with your day.
• 1:42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a lot of people have asked me have you thought about doing a job or part of the job or whatever, and I thought, well, I'm injured now, so I I can't, but I always thought if I want to be the best in the world or go to the Olympics or compete with the best people, you have to do it full time, you have to put your heart and soul into it, and I don't know if that's the right or wrong approach, but that's the approach that I believe will give me the best results, so I have to back that.
• 1:43:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, having that much time is hard.
• 1:43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, just have to find things, yeah.
• 1:43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's I I think there's a uh it's probably conflict like maybe conflicting views, or more so I was see being exposed to it depends when you're saying like bet best in the world rather than just like elite as well.
• 1:43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was chatting to I went up to my uh old coaches in Durham in and Max, my coach, uh he was he founded the Great North Run, and back in the kind of 70s, 80s, he was training partner of Brendan Foster.
• 1:43:57
  SPEAKER_01: And those lads back then, primary school teachers working at Nike in management, uh working in pharmacies or whatever, they're obviously you know the the full-time job and then the athletics career is a pretty standard thing.
• 1:44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um but then equally now, like it maybe it's an individual thing and trusting what what it works best for you, if the all in works for you, that's massively important.
• 1:44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously it's the trade-offs that come with that is the amount the amount of time of having to distract yourself.
• 1:44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um but then obviously science has moved on as as well, and and it is yeah, optimizing certain other things and you know, but but for sure, I think having having trust like you you have in what you're doing is is the most important thing out of it all.
• 1:44:55
  SPEAKER_01: But then obviously Matt there there are times that you can do stuff during injury, it's not just sitting around and uh you know like distracting yourself as as you say.
• 1:45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Cross training, massive.
• 1:45:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're a big Zwift fan.
• 1:45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Love a bit, love a bit of Witopia.
• 1:45:16
  SPEAKER_01: I I know how many people are injured on my Strava when it keeps coming up, and I'm just like, wow, they're they're meeting up.
• 1:45:23
  SPEAKER_00: You should join the you should join the uh group rides.
• 1:45:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it's so I'm so I was so tempted.
• 1:45:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was even this time last year I was gonna get a Zwift, and I'm glad that I didn't because I get no use out of it.
• 1:45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um but as soon as I can cycle with this with this quad, I'll uh I'll probably hop on.
• 1:45:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit of fun.
• 1:45:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is good.
• 1:45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, like you said, cross-training, you have to enjoy it.
• 1:45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um thankfully I I like cycling, and I'm okay at it.
• 1:45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I just just sort of bury myself into that.
• 1:45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I've got the Zwift set up, um got a few friends who I can do it with, so no, it's it's it's nice to be able to do a bit of that.
• 1:46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um cycling's definitely my favourite bit of the cross-training, aqua jogging, swimming, absolutely not.
• 1:46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um try to avoid them, just not good for the mental side, to be honest.
• 1:46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um but no, cycling's definitely helped me, um, offered me like a an opportunity to get outside to you know get some fitness, but it's never quite running, but it's definitely been pretty useful.
• 1:46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:46:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I'll do is we you know, we can we can go into cross-training a lot, um, but I I know I've just uh absolutely kind of wrecked your wrecked your voice in a sense.
• 1:46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, we've got we've got listeners that we wrecked their ears, so it's it's alright.
• 1:46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you can get if you can get it out, this is gonna be uh an A B A B or C and then probably four four words.
• 1:46:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a I was having a look, I was doing some research.
• 1:47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um there was a Moorhan Midnight game show.
• 1:47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, oh no.
• 1:47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now God, you think this is what happens like research nowadays is I'll try and navigate the dreadful um dreadful power of ten database and try and find some stuff.
• 1:47:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do anything on power of ten these days.
• 1:47:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous, it's ridiculous.
• 1:47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's like having it's like you know, a VPN.
• 1:47:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like having a VPN.
• 1:47:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like well, come on.
• 1:47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we got I remember Jay, it's it was Jamie Keir, wasn't it, that came up and woke you up at 1.30 in the morning.
• 1:47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um and was talking about some mattresses.
• 1:47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Allegedly, allegedly.
• 1:47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:47:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking about some mattresses.
• 1:47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I was just wondering if you could remember uh any of these questions.
• 1:47:47
  SPEAKER_01: So next day delivery um for for this for this mattress, was it uh£5.99,£2.99, or was it indeed free?
• 1:47:58
  SPEAKER_01: It better be free.
• 1:48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, surely.
• 1:48:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was free.
• 1:48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, um you get a trial for a certain amount of days.
• 1:48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Is it 50 days free trial, 100 days free trial, or 200 days free trial?
• 1:48:18
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like a hundred's obvious, but yeah, I'm gonna have to go a hundred.
• 1:48:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's two hundred.
• 1:48:27
  SPEAKER_00: You get over halfway.
• 1:48:28
  SPEAKER_00: See, you don't you don't you don't get that with most mattresses.
• 1:48:31
  SPEAKER_01: I when I was in the States, I got a mattress and I was actually it was my last six months of living there, and I had a 180-day free trial, and as soon as I knew that I was leaving, I sent it back and I was like quality unreal.
• 1:48:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was a great mattress as well.
• 1:48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um comfort layers, three, six, or nine comfort layers.
• 1:48:53
  SPEAKER_00: Surely nine, nine as many as you can get.
• 1:48:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then this was testing your quick maths.
• 1:48:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you sleep for eight hours a day for a whole year, three hundred and sixty-five days this is, how many hours are you sleeping for?
• 1:49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Three thousand something like three thousand two hundred and thirty two or something?
• 1:49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Two thousand nine hundred and twenty.
• 1:49:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's close, but you got hey, you got it, you got it right.
• 1:49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:49:39
  SPEAKER_00: You got it funny that funny I got it right then, yeah.
• 1:49:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you got you got it right in um yeah, in in the video, so it's alright.
• 1:49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's all that matters really.
• 1:49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:49:48
  SPEAKER_00: To be fair, I've got I've got two nice things in my house.
• 1:49:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's my bed and my sofa.
• 1:49:54
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 1:49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Three, the TV The only things the only three things an athlete needs.
• 1:49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:50:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going for an altitude tent, are you?
• 1:50:03
  SPEAKER_01: For your no chance, never.
• 1:50:05
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Cy Coppard.
• 1:50:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think Cy Coppard spent his his grant on it or something.
• 1:50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no comment.
• 1:50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, final question is there was the mixed, uh mixed relay at Mansfield, four by a mile.
• 1:50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Two It was dead, I hate to say it.
• 1:50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Two males, two females.
• 1:50:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's see if we can spice it up.
• 1:50:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um all time athletes for that four by a mile cross country, two male, two female.
• 1:50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Who are you picking?
• 1:50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um no on the dead part, it it's got potential, but the the standard between the teams was far too great.
• 1:50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it first first time, plenty of um time for it to work.
• 1:50:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorry, I'll go um my lifetime cross country that throws me off.
• 1:51:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um for a mile as well.
• 1:51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 1:51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um Callumelson, no, I've no, I'm joking.
• 1:51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, that sounds mean.
• 1:51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm just trying to think of mile cross country runners.
• 1:51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll go Josh, I'll go Josh and Jake.
• 1:51:34
  SPEAKER_00: They don't run on the cross, but they're not gonna be bad, are they?
• 1:51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um Laura's done a bit of cross.
• 1:51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Big fan of Laura, Laura Muir.
• 1:51:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um Keely used to be a cross runner, but I'm not sure she's got the minerals for it now.
• 1:51:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um Hannah Nuttle.
• 1:52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking Hannah Nuttle.
• 1:52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Good over the cross, good 5k, friend of the sh my pod show, friend of the show.
• 1:52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, friend, so yeah.
• 1:52:18
  SPEAKER_00: And local Jarmwood.
• 1:52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Local Luke will be hating the fact that I've said that, but he won't be listening to it, so it's fine.
• 1:52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, Jake and Josh can't argue with them.
• 1:52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Laura can't argue with her and Hannah.
• 1:52:31
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 1:52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fantastic.
• 1:52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Matt, thank you so much.
• 1:52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thanks very much.
• 1:52:36
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize, my voice is absolutely gone.
• 1:52:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I think we understand it's it's you know, it's more than all right.
• 1:52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, mate.
• 1:52:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for being so so open.
• 1:52:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um plenty more stuff that we could talk about, of course.
• 1:52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like we say, it's you know it scratches the surface.
• 1:52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but just yeah, appreciate your your your honesty and um very much looking forward to you're not racing Liverpool, are you?
• 1:53:03
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I'd love to, but um I'll be there in spirit, maybe there in person, but with a pair of jeans on, I reckon.
• 1:53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, resist resist the temptation, hold yourself back.
• 1:53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, yeah, half tides underneath though.
• 1:53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course, just in case.
• 1:53:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just in case.
• 1:53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people, where where should people go to you know follow um what you're doing, podcast and and uh yeah, um just Matt Stonia on Instagram.
• 1:53:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty simple, hopefully.
• 1:53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and the substack as well, if you're interested in reading anything.
• 1:53:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and occasionally a podcast, not as good as this one.
• 1:53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've got to go.
• 1:53:44
  SPEAKER_01: Got to get the audio quality.
• 1:53:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fellow friend and runner Ben Patterson, um, who's a little bit better than me.
• 1:53:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to hear stuff from a good, better athlete, then head over there.
• 1:53:55
  SPEAKER_00: But um no, thanks very much for having me, mate.
• 1:53:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, thank you, Matt.
• 1:53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.