Latest / Executive Alliance Podcast / E11: Getting your First Board Seat with Suzanne Miglucci
Transcript
- Rebecca Snyder: Welcome everyone. I am so delighted to have Suzanne McGlucci here in the studio today. Suzanne is a former public company CEO and CMO. She's been a corporate director, a governance leader, and now a board readiness coach. So she has worked in publicly traded and privately held companies, and she her expertise includes digital transformation, corporate pivots, MA, product innovation, go to market strategy, and global brand. improvement and today we have a really special connection because she's also the facilitator for Executive Alliance's Quick Start Board Readiness Program. So deep breath, welcome Suzanne Suzanne Miglucci: Thanks for having me, Rebecca. I so greatly appreciate it and appreciate Executive Alliance and all that you do. I'm thrilled to be here. it's my favorite topic, talking about corporate governance. So I'm excited to have dialogue with you today. Rebecca Snyder: likewise. And you've done so many different things and and a lot of and so we'll get into sort of how all that comes to bear when you're making yourself visible in corporate board settings. But you've worked in your board readiness and in your your your corporate experience with a lot of really successful people and and we see it in Executive Alliance as well. And sometimes there's a disconnect between, you know, highly successful executive executives who say, well, I'll just pop on a board. I'll just, I'll just go onto a corporate board. That'll be my retirement program. So what do you think even accomplished executives, not necessarily just women, but executives overall, misunderstand about being ready for a corporate board? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah, it's it's such a a meaty question. And and I would say the the short answer is as we grow as as professionals and we get into these executive ranks, we become a C suite executive, your entire work is about being an operator, right? Your Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: hands are on the keyboard, you're managing people, you're managing processes, you're managing technology, and and you get paid for it and you're good at it, right? Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: And you think, Okay, well I I can bring that to other organizations, but your mindset Is still that of an operator. And so I Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: think the biggest disconnect that people have is that when you get onto a corporate board, it is really about governance and oversight. It is about asking the interesting and challenging questions that are going to help the executives in the room that run the company that are the operators help them understand the maybe some nuances they might not be thinking about, right? Or or some of the tough questions about what the what the long view looks like. What is that five-year Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: plan? You're not there to say your five-year plan should be this. Even though you think you might know what that is. You're really there to help those executives shape their future in their corporation. You're there to ask the questions and ensure that the company is doing all of the best things that they can do on behalf of their stakeholders and shareholders. And you do that simply by asking those questions, being inquisitive, reviewing the materials that come to you as a board director, and reflecting on them. It's not necessarily To help them operate that organization. Now, I'll give you a caveat. It differs a little bit when you're starting maybe with a startup organization. Startups Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: sometimes will bring on board, smart startups will bring on boards and take advantage of senior executives that can sit in that sort of boardroom and that oversight sort of function. However, when you're with that very small organization, you're taking a little equity to be on that board, but it's also perhaps to lean in a little bit more, maybe open your Your contacts to that organization, make some connections for that organization, but it is still not to operate, right? So Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: that's the biggest disconnect. And I think that well, as these executives are thinking about matriculating their way into the boardroom, the best thing you can possibly do is spend time in the boardroom in the role you're currently in as a C-suite Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Suzanne Miglucci: executive. But then bring the lens and watch how these people that are the board directors are approaching things from a governance and oversight standpoint. Bring the lens that you'd like to be that board director someday. How would you act differently than the operator that you are today? You have a ready environment right in front of you. The more time you can spend there, the more you're interacting with your board members, the more you're supporting Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Suzanne Miglucci: them, maybe in the committee work that they do. Raise your hand and and volunteer to be closer to that board so that you can observe. And in fact, ask your CEO if you can get in that boardroom every single time and observe. You may You may get no as an answer, but always ask to be there so that you can view it. Too often we work as that operator and then we take that board seat and we've never really experienced that gray area in between. So let's take Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: advantage of it and let's ask for permission to be there so that we can observe the differences and the way that you act as going from that operating professional to that boardroom professional. Rebecca Snyder: And you know, the way you describe it, it almost feels like muscle memory that you have to observe and then do and sort of almost run these parallel tracks of you're operating, but then you're stepping out and being like, What would it look like if I were coming in from this angle? Am I getting that Suzanne Miglucci: Exactly. Rebecca Snyder: right? Suzanne Miglucci: You're you're getting that exactly right. It's you you're you're looking at it in two very different ways. And you you give yourself the time while you're still in that C suite position to observe it so that you don't have a an oops moment, a tripping over yourself moment when you take that first board seat. The other thing you can do, Rebecca, is surround yourself with great mentors, let your network know that you're interested in moving into that boardroom experience, and then ask them what their experiences are like. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: What was it like when you took your first role? What were your aha moments? What what was the surprise that when you were in your first board meeting? So that you're not the one that's being surprised. You're you're learning vicariously through other people that have gone before you. Rebecca Snyder: Well and it In some ways, like this is a natural progression in well, anyone's leadership journey, but we're talking about women here, so it will we'll stay there. Because the skills you know, when when you're a mid-level director or you know, when you're at the mid-level and looking to go into the C suite, there's a real shift in how you need to operate and move in the world and perceive the issues. And so this feels like another kind of paradigm natural but paradigmatic shift. Is that right? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you have to be reflective in that way. You have to realize you're you're moving into this shift, you're moving into another realm as you go from C-suite to board. and in doing that movement, it's going to require change on your behalf. You don't wanna you don't wanna leave behind all the great skills that have made you that C-suite executive. You just wanna divorce yourself from them just a little bit because you had you had managed them as an operator, and now you're more an observer of them. And as long as you can start to separate yourself from it, take those hands off the keyboard, you can make that transition and just be that be aware. And I again I think mentors can help you with that. People that have that have been there and done that, maybe someone that's six to twelve months ahead of you in their career path could give you a really Rebecca Snyder: Hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: good bird's eye view of that transition. Pick some people in your vertical market, pick some people in your specialty areas and and connect with them. People want to help others, especially women. We're all trying to. To claw our way forward and and to and to be better and advance ourselves. And if you raise your hand and you ask someone for assistance, the the likelihood is pretty high that they're gonna wanna help you because we wanna build a pipeline of women that are gonna follow us into the boardroom. We know that diversity in the boardroom makes for a stronger boardroom. All of the statistics support this. So the more women that we have there, the more people with diverse skill sets we have there, the better. So as we all support those that are following us, we should be opening ourselves up and providing guidance and and helping people along. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Well and I want to get to the sort of why woman women question. but before we do that, was there a time because you've you have sat on on corporate boards, you've been a CEO, a CMO. Can you tell me about a time where it was just really hard to sit on your hands and and make that adjustment? I mean, the first time you kind of realize, I need to be doing something different. Suzanne Miglucci: yeah, it I will tell you it's there's numerous difficult times because you get to a point in your con career when you're really good at what you do. And so if you're really good at what you do and you see a problem in front of you and and you you're pretty sure you know how to handle that, you want to offer that up. And that's when Rebecca Snyder: Yes. Suzanne Miglucci: it becomes difficult. So as I will say one of the first times that I experienced that is I moved when I moved into a CEO role. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: It was it was too easy for everyone in the room to default to me as the CEO and let me come Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: up with the answers, but that didn't allow my team to grow. And so truly, as the CEO, I had to take my hands off the keyboard. It was that that beginning of the transition. So it happens first when you're a CEO. You've you've you've rolled up your sleeves your whole career, hands on the keyboard, making things happen. Now you're CEO, you're an administrator for all intents and purposes. You're really helping Rebecca Snyder: Really. Suzanne Miglucci: other people. act and operate for the company and for the shareholders and stakeholders. You're there to orchestrate, you're there to to help people grow, you're you're there to improve processes, work on the top line, the bottom line. But you got to get out of the way. And so Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: the first time that I really experienced this where it was really challenging was as a CEO. How do I how do I shift my thinking from all the things I know I'm good at and I know I could help if I put my hands on the keyboard to allowing other people to Take a run at it, allowing other people to trip a little, maybe stumble and learn faster and better because it was a learning experience, right? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: Sometimes it's hard. You think, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do it faster and better if I just do it myself. I'm not gonna tell somebody else how to do it because it's gonna take them twice as long. You don't, you don't do that. You don't do that. You have to sit on your hands and allow people to grow. And and I had a very similar experience when I got into the boardroom because It was my first time truly watching and observing even the CEO, right? I was moving out of that CEO position into a board position, observing Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: that CEO doing exactly what I used to do, trying to run the company, that kind of thing. So I I've seen it a couple of times. I think that the trick here is being self-aware, and again, truly understanding that board service is about guidance and oversight. And the more you remind yourself of that, the the the faster you can assimilate it, make that muscle memory, as you say, Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: assimilate those good habits. it's easy to fall to the older habits and it makes you a more challenging board director for others to deal with. So you don't want to be that squeaky wheel. You want to be the one that is in there supporting and doing the best you can to move that corporation forward. And you do that by being truly a governance professional that that hands off professional. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. And so it feels like it's it's shifting from sort of tactical to more systems thinking. And you are a terrific systems thinker. and so when you when you were coming up in your career and you have a lot of diverse and really interesting experiences, did you know was it always your goal to be a CEO or did it did sort of the companies just demand that level of leadership from you? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah. I was very early in my career, I thought I was gonna be a CEO. And then I found Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: myself in in a marketing role, very senior marketing roles from large to to mid-sized organizations. and it was really rewarding. The returns were were significant for me. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: I felt like, well, that was probably that was probably the pinnacle of my career. It was it good enough, you know. and then I had a I had a career opportunity present itself. So I was with an organization that was preparing for an IPO. And my Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: role as the CMO, running marketing for the organization was to be part of the team that packaged that organization to bring it public. And in the course of doing that, it's such a transition from being a you know a fledgling startup, say whatever you want to the market, do things in your own way, nobody's really watching the shop too closely, maybe, to being rigid and to to have the discipline of being publicly traded. There's just such a leap to move into that realm. And there was a lot to learn as a marketing professional, but also a lot to learn from all of my peers around the table that were buttoning up their portions of the organization, the finances, the sales processes. Everything that would be scrutinized once we allow shareholders to come in and own a portion of our company. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: we used a third party in this to guide us through all of this transition, to hold our hands as we were moving all of our individual elements toward this more public scrutiny. And then we did the IPO, probably one of the the pinnacle events of my career. It was really quite exciting. Rebecca Snyder: So exciting. Suzanne Miglucci: Only woman standing on the platform at the New York Stock Exchange, ringing the bell. And the the aftermath was was so fascinating. we grew rapidly, we had so we had more money than than we could spend, and we we did it wisely, we grew our company faster globally and all that good stuff. And this is when bells started to go off for me. Do I want to continue to be the marketing person now in this role? Or have I learned some significant things that I could. Help other companies absorb as they're going to market and doing their own IPO. Could Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: I potentially be in a governance and oversight role where I can be in the boardroom and assisting those companies that are ready to make that similar leap? It's like getting an MBA, right? You learn Rebecca Snyder: Sure. Suzanne Miglucci: so much, the education is huge. And when you're in the process of doing your IPO, It's truly drinking from that fire hose. And so, what could I do to help others following me do it more succinctly to get all the pieces right? I felt Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: like I had something of value I could bring to that part of the market. And in the course of doing all of these moving pieces, of course, you spend more time in the boardroom and you spend more time with the board and and you you you start to work that vernacular and you understand the moving pieces. And that's when my eyes really opened to what governance looks like, should look like, as a Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: private company, as a public company. And that really intrigued me to move into that part of my career path. And strangely Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: enough, I I wanted to leave that organization after a few years after the IPO. The the growth was so rapid, I found myself on the road all of the time. I was never home. And I thought, you know what? I think it might be time for me to dial things back just a little bit. Let me Take a few board seats and then maybe I'll peel off the C-suite work and and I'll have a portfolio career in and sitting in the boardroom. And I did just that. did all the things that the the coaches and so on will tell you to do when you're looking for a board role, network like crazy, get all of your value propositions buttoned up, tell the market you're ready. And I did that and found my first board role. And within three months I was the CEO of that company. So my friend My first attempt at getting into the boardroom was a little bit of a failure only because I wound up doing so as a non-independent. I became both a CEO and board director of this organization. But what a what an amazing experience to have gone through searching for a board role, making your way in that room, and then understanding it from both sides. Understanding it as an independent director first and then as the CEO and sort of observing both sides of the table. was really educational for me to understand how to play that different role as the independent. And and again, Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Suzanne Miglucci: it it's that transition to completely hands off and how can I be that person while adding the greatest value. And it was it was nice to see both sides of that table for a nice five-year swath of my career. I think Rebecca Snyder: Try. Suzanne Miglucci: it was a unique mix for me to have those it was a gift that I that I got in my career path that I got to experience that. and then go completely independent after I left that CEO role and and take other corporate roles. It was it was an education for sure. Rebecca Snyder: It sounds like it. And so what did you learn when you were back in a CEO role after having sort of done both of them? What lessons or or how did that shape your leadership style and thinking? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah, in in in both directions. It it changed things dramatically. You know, it's different being a C suite executive versus the CEO. So there was learnings of how I could better serve the the people in the C suite where I had come from. Rebecca Snyder: So that and just to interrupt, I just that was your first CEO role as well. Okay. Suzanne Miglucci: It was my first CEO role. First board role, first CEO role. And and so it really helped. To really see the C suite Rebecca Snyder: I love the overachieving. That's great. Suzanne Miglucci: and how they operate, because I came from those ranks, but then could help represent them in the boardroom and and Properly help the board understand the work that is being done. Because if a board is going to be effective, they really need to understand how things operate. They don't want to operate it themselves, but they need to truly understand it. And if there's a trust level between the C-suite and the board, now you've got chocolate and peanut butter. Now it's working together, Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: right? And so you want you want very confident C-suite executives. ushered into the boardroom to have their introductions, for them to get to know the board, for them to support the board and committee work and so on. So it gave me a chance to manage down better Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: than I that I had maybe as a CMO. It also helped me understand, having been independent initially and then moved into this CEO role, it helped me understand what it looks like to be on that independent side of the table and have that relationship with the CEO. Because that's your primary job as a board director is really to evaluate and sort of work with that CEO to optimize the running of the company. And so I feel like I had a little bit of an advantage, a foot in each camp, if you will, that helped Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: me understand and separate the roles. Because sometimes those roles get a little bit gray, but having lived Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: in all of them, it I I truly then embraced and understood that separation and and Truly what boards are supposed to be doing and not doing and what you want to rely on your C suite to do. Rebecca Snyder: Hmm, now that makes sense. I want to go back to your standing on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange as the only woman in that that Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: IPO. What did that feel like? And what did you feel like you maybe were representing at that point? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah, yeah. It was it was such a moment. It was so exciting and you know, Kramer was down there doing doing his talk and and it was on his TV show and I had had dressed the New York Stock Exchange so it was all decked out in our logo and all of the market makers were Rebecca Snyder: How cool? Suzanne Miglucci: wearing our jackets and it was just one of those moments where you know when you've when you've fostered a brand like that and you've brought it to market and you've you you you allow that brand to flourish and it comes to this moment, it's like You know, it played a role in this and as a as one of the very few female executives that got us there. And it was I did feel like I was representing women and helping others that will follow me understand that you too can be standing on this platform. You you have to perform, you have to put your nose to the grindstone, but you have to ask for access. You have to ask for the ability to be in that room. And if you can, maybe you wind up on the podium of the New York Stock Exchange. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So do you think it really is about asking or is there more systemic barrier Suzanne Miglucci: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: like is it women just not asking to be part of those roles? Or tell me about the systemic barriers that kind of even if you ask, you don't always get there. Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah, I I think very often women don't ask. Women I think we're we're we're a kind of a I don't know humble group. We tend to, you know, right, you know, that little that little project I did that saved you two million dollars, you know, on the bottom line. We we just sort of brush some of that stuff under the rug and maybe don't take full credit for what it is we do. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: when you don't take full credit and then articulate that credit back to others in the market. Don't really know what you're doing. You're quietly doing your job, you're doing well, everyone likes you. But if you're not being a bit promotional about what it is you're delivering for that organization, no one's gonna know the greatness that you're bringing to market. And so it's a two-pronged thing that I recommend women do. Number one, be I I don't I don't think you want to be boastful necessarily, but I want you to take credit for the work that you have done and be articulate about it. I think you should be able to articulate numbers or percentages growth or major impacts that you've made to that organization. I think you want to give credit to the people around you that you've worked with because one of the things we look for when we're seeking board executives is how collaborative are you? Will you Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: fit in a culture, right? So I don't want you to be boastful and say, I did this work and I I brought this to market and I made these changes. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: You played a role in in in a in a Function larger than you in order to move something forward. Articulate that. And then at the same time, the second prong is ask for permission to be in the room. And too often we wait, because I especially when people from my age group, you know, we we grew up in a in a time when if you worked hard, people would recognize it and you have your reviews every quarter or every year, and Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: and you get that recognition. I think Too often people aren't necessarily ready to promote themselves because they think that we should just people should just be recognizing what I'm doing. And everybody's busy, not everyone's sitting around waiting to see how well you do. And so you Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: have to remind them and you have to ask for permission to be in the room. Too often women don't don't proactively take that step. And we get left behind with all of our fabulous skills Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: because we didn't ask for that permission to be there. And and I would say to you know, I guide people when they're looking for board work, it's it's bringing that tenaciousness forward. You have to be willing to package up and talk about all of the successes that you've had. You've got to Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: be willing to ask for those mentors, and you've got to be willing to ask for the board seat. And so you gotta break the chains of those those quiet skills that you have that you've just sort of been toiling away at your desk, right? You have to be done with that. You have to be a little bit more bold. About who you Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Suzanne Miglucci: are and what you've done in order to move forward. It's a it's a busy place. Going into board work is a really competitive market. There's a lot Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: of candidates out there today because I think everyone's realizing how beneficial it is to move from C suite work into board work and now it's a crowded space. If you're gonna stand Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: above and beyond everyone else, you've got to have stories from your career that help people understand how those skill sets that you've exhibited all of your career. can be applied in their boardroom. So it's Rebecca Snyder: Well, and I think that's that's such a critical piece that I want to circle back to because you were talking about, you know, women need to articulate what they've done and put themselves out there, which is a really vulnerable space sometimes. You know, you're stretching. And I think that sometimes women don't know what they're articulating, like to what the end goal is. And so that idea of, you know, steering your ship and saying, well I want to I want board service, but not really understanding what that means. So can you elaborate more on the talking about your work in relation to what boards need and what they're really looking for? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah. That's such a good question. you're spot on, Rebecca, because too often you know, sometimes I'll I'll talk with people after they've had their interview, right? And how did it go? And and so they'll walk through the process and and say, Well, my first question was, tell me about your career. And then when I finished, we were done with the call. It's like Rebecca Snyder: Ooh. Suzanne Miglucci: you can get caught up, right? Somebody's interested in my career. Yeah, you have to take the time to understand what an organization is looking for in their board ranks. There's a reason why a board seat is open. Someone's rolled off due to age, someone's rolled off due to conflict, someone's rolled off for some reason, or we're opening new seats in order to bring additional skills forward in order to meet our three to five year plan. There's there's various reasons why board seats open, but usually it's because we're at some inflection point. Something is changing, right? And Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: because it's changing, we might be losing a skill because somebody's rolling off, we might be gaining a skill because we're gonna get into AI, whatever the reasons are, there is a skills matrix aligned with that board seat. And the board knows exactly what they want because they have Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: check boxes for the things they already have in their board skills, and they have a big blank in the boxes. That they need to fill, and that's why they're interviewing you. So, in all honesty, the interview is not about you and your career path. They may ask you the question, you know, tell us about your career path. You should have done your homework well enough to understand why they're opening this seat and align the bits and pieces of your career path with the check marks they're looking to check in the skills matrix. If they've Rebecca Snyder: Mm, mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: opened this seat because they're looking for a specialist, for example. Looking for a specialist that does digital transformation and can understand AI and cyber and be sort of that primary on the board that has this skill set. That's vastly different than the organization that's looking for a former CEO because they're a good generalist. So sometimes Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Suzanne Miglucci: you're looking for a specialist, and all the boxes line up in the skills matrix on that one category. And sometimes you're looking for the generalist that does everything. Businesses are different and they're going to need different skill sets. Your job as the candidate is to understand what those boxes are. And you can get there by usually going through the first touch point that brings you to the table in the first place. Someone contacted you, right? I I'm interested in your I saw your bio, I'm interested in your skill set, I'm I'm helping with this board search. That person could be a nom and gov chair, that person could be a search professional, that person could be an HR individual within the organization, but they are the one. With the boxes in the skills matrix. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: So they know what they're looking for. And your job is to ask, could you tell me a little bit about why this role is open? And then sit back and listen. Don't jump in with your take on it. Just listen to what that individual has to say. Probe and ask as many questions as you can to that gatekeeper, that initial person, so that you understand the skills that are needed, and then you package your skills as they align. Not that I'm suggesting you be disingenuous about all the wonderful things you've done in your career. But what we want you to do is pull forward the ones that are relevant. You want to make it from the interview with the gatekeeper to the interview with the first two or three people that are overseeing this search. There's the the mass pool, and then there's the first cut, and then there's a final cut. And you need to make it all along those ways and know that that search committee. Is checking those boxes along the way. So if you've done your homework on the front end and you understand the boxes they have, you can actually be truly honest and say, I've I've got a a a great experience, a great amount of experience in internationalization. Would you like me to share some experiences? Because you know that they're looking for an international person, right? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: and I think that you know you want to be storytelling. I think stories really work incredibly well as you're doing those board interviews because it brings it down to how you operated and what you did and who you worked with and how you thought and how things turned out. And I would say the best thing that you can do in preparation for these interviews is again, number one, understand the skills matrix and what's needed, but then to bring those stories forward in a way that they can be digested and assimilated by those people on the other side of the table. Remember, they're looking for you and the way that you think as a board director, be careful to not use too many operational terms in the way that you do things. Rebecca Snyder: Yes. Suzanne Miglucci: Cause if you're interviewing Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: and you start talking about you know, we we did this MA and my role was all the rationalization of technology and people, that's gonna get way into the weeds a little bit quickly Rebecca Snyder: Sure. Suzanne Miglucci: for a board director. But if you can talk about the people strategy and you can talk about the technology strategy and you can bring it up a level, now you're talking like a board director would be speaking about MA. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: Remember start with them in mind. It is about them. It's not about you. They are looking for a peer to join them and to be part of their culture. So how can I fit that culture and how can I check those boxes? Rebecca Snyder: Mm. And that I and that is a reframing of experience and skills and really more in the way that you're talking about yourself. Suzanne Miglucci: That's right. Rebecca Snyder: So I wanted to talk about earlier you had talked about how important diversity wa was and and women in in in senior leadership roles. And I just wanted to talk about sort of the state of women on corporate boards right now. Because you know, Executive Alliance does our annual census report of women board directors in Maryland. You're very familiar with the national picture, and it's kind of grim right now. So Suzanne Miglucci: Okay. Rebecca Snyder: you know, not to depress us too. But tell us what's going on and maybe why things are the way they are. Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah. we've definitely seen seen some shifts in the last couple of years. If if we were having this dialogue five years ago, I would say, my goodness, talk about your your diversity in in your board, you know, resume and bio. I think that that has gone by the wayside. And and Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: it went along with some legislation and things that that came in and then changed, right? So, you know, state of California you know, had put some legislation out there, a certain number, certain percentage of of Board seats needed to be filled by women for certain size publicly traded companies. And then it went away. And I think that we've found in that time frame since that adjusted many, many other adjustments with corporations because corporations were beginning to embrace diversity and put it in requirements, much much like you know, the EEOC things that that we're also seeing go away today. It used to be a focus area. And now Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: I think that. Certain shareholders, certain stakeholders look at that as a weakness in those organizations. They'll call that out. There's a fair amount of activist shareholder pressure against that type of thing. And so corporations have set it aside. But what I will tell you is this: the smart organization understands that diversity of any kind, diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity and gender, all of it brings value. To a board and a corporation because it brings different levels of thinking and you have the higher likelihood that the makeup of the people running an organization look like the constituents that you serve. You don't want to all look one color, all have one background, all be from one type of industry, because that's very narrow and that's hard for an organization to grow from. If that organization begins as a broader more diverse organization, you're gonna have varying opinions that may challenge things in a different way, and we get to the end faster and maybe more collectively with a broader lens on where we're gonna go. So the smart organizations are in fact still embracing diversity, but what they are not doing is that they're not saying we want 50% of our board to be comprised of women. That's simply not happening any longer. And and I think we almost shot ourselves in the foot with some of these initiatives because we did make it about diversity. It's really about diversity of experience. So you as the candidate need to begin with your diversity of experience. How wonderful that it turns out that maybe that hire becomes a woman as well. But what we really want to do is we want your strengths to come forward. So if I can tug again on a little conversation we had a few minutes ago, it's about really understanding how your skills align with what a board needs. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: And so you go back and you look at your history, but you repackage yourself in a way that your skills are elevated. They're a little bit more on oversight and leadership and governance than they are on operations, and you align them to that matrix and bring that diversity of experiences forward. And then you still check all of the boxes that we would have if we called it three years ago a diverse candidate, if that makes sense. And and we are seeing a shift. And I will say you know, I have a lot of searches come across my desk. two, two, three years ago, it was we're looking for a woman who has these skill Rebecca Snyder: huh. Suzanne Miglucci: sets. Today it's very much we're looking for a candidate with this deep experience in AI or cyber or a generalist that is a former CEO. There is a resurgence of CEO hires. it was, you know, many, many years ago, you would hire either a CEO or a CFO to be on your board. And Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: boards were relatively successful with with that sort of with that filter. It's coming back. And so the specialist, I only do one thing. The specialist is, I think, gaining less ground than the person that is more generalist and understands all the various parts of the business. So Rebecca Snyder: Interesting. Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: again, it's not because we're looking for white men that are CEOs. We're looking for generalists that have a broad skill set. So you as Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: an individual, if you've worked across many parts of the organization, if you're the COO, but in being the COO, it means that you have to be very tightly integrated with product and with HR and and and all the other parts of the business, you can play the generalist card. And that's really where a diversity of skill comes into play. And it's just cake or icing, if you will, that you happen to be a female candidate. And female candidates bring a different point of view too. I mean, Women, we know that we know this from psychology that's been published year year over year. Women look at things differently, women process things Rebecca Snyder: Absolutely. Suzanne Miglucci: differently. So we're bringing a diversity in the way that we might bring oversight and governance to a boardroom. So that's an added value because you're a woman, but the first checkbox has to be that you've got the breadth of skills that they're looking for or the specialty of skills they're looking for. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and if we look at it just in sort of like this big picture systems piece, you know, the average tenure of a person on a corporate board is something like twenty years. Like people are not popping in and out in in Suzanne Miglucci: They are not. Rebecca Snyder: just a couple of years. So they're there for the long term and there's not this push to expand boards. So I think sometimes the pipeline issue, we know, and and you you said it earlier, there aren't that many women CEOs. So when we're looking at boards or looking at CEO generalists, and women are not in those spaces, we I think it it goes beyond how can you be ready for a corporate board seat if you're not in the C-suite? Like there we need more women pipelines. pipelining in for sure or else Suzanne Miglucci: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: we're never gonna change the governing structures that are controlling the corporations. Suzanne Miglucci: You you you're spot on, Rebecca. You're exactly right. I think it's incumbent on all of us to help work that pipeline and and to elevate those women and bring them forward. But it's back to you as well. You have to Rebecca Snyder: Uh-huh. Suzanne Miglucci: ask to have access. You have to ask to be in that boardroom. And you know, as women, we work sometimes twice as hard in order to to to scratch our way forward. But you have to, if that's your intention and you want to be in that C suite, whether it's CEO or board director, you you have to have exhibited Those skills. And one of the ways to get there is to exhibit those skills in front of your board directors while you're supporting the work they're doing on a committee, for example. Committees Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: do a fair amount of work. And I will say, this will sound maybe a little counterintuitive, but here we go. Board members, you know, you you do all you build all these skills throughout your career, you become a very accomplished person, you get on a board. You start to take your hands off the keyboard and now you don't do as many things anymore. Now these committees Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: do a fair amount of work. They build comp plans for the coming year and they evaluate your books and ensure that you're audited correctly. But sometimes it takes other people other than the board members to actually do the actual work. The Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: work needs to be done, but as we become board members, we're used to other people doing the work around us. Rebecca Snyder: Sure. Suzanne Miglucci: So a door opens. And it means that there's room for people within the organization to come and support those committees. Who wouldn't who wouldn't love as the nom and gov committee to have the HR person assist us in sorting through resumes that are coming in? That's a great Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: way to be helping. And it's a great way for a CHRO to have access to the board because they can come in through the Nom and Gov Committee, right? So be thinking about ways that your role supports what happens above you. From a governance standpoint and ask for permission to be included and be willing to roll up your sleeves and do some of the work and then let those board members that you've worked with know I'm I'm working on my pathway to the boardroom. And this Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: has been really exceptional work working with you. What advice would you have for me? And now you have a mentor, right? Rebecca Snyder: Right. Suzanne Miglucci: And and and you're gonna build this group of mentors around you to help move you along, to to recommend you where they can, to guide you where you may need some guidance. But if you're not asking for permission to be in that committee or in that room, that's not gonna happen for you. You're gonna quietly sit at your desk and do things as you always have, and you may not matriculate up because people don't know that you want to be there. Does that make sense? Rebecca Snyder: Right. It's it's sort of like making your own luck. And I wanted to bring it back to what we're doing at Executive Alliance because you know, certainly that shift from director level into the Swiss C suite that's covered by our mentoring program. But then last year you helped us conceptualize the quick start board readiness program, which in some ways is that transformational next step up. You're in the C suite. And you want to go to the corporate board director level. And in your work as a as a board readiness consultant and you do one-on-one coaching, we've just been so grateful to have your expertise in our cohort of of eight women that we work with each year. In that first year, what did you learn from that first cohort? Suzanne Miglucci: Yeah, I I learned that as women, we aren't very good at packaging ourselves. And Rebecca Snyder: No, no, Suzanne Miglucci: we we've already alluded to some of this in our conversation. And we're just not very good at at at sort of pumping up our chest a little and talking about the wonderful things that we've done. and it's sometimes hard for these women to package that in a way that they feel comfortable telling someone about themselves. and it was Rebecca Snyder: that's interesting. Suzanne Miglucci: just it was just sort of a I knew that, but it was so palpable working directly with these eight women to begin. I know, remember Rebecca, we went around the room. Tell me a little bit about you and what your aspirations are to be in the boardroom. Some people had the thoughts, two, three critical things that they were good at. Others were more backward reflecting on what they've done in their career. That is not what a board is looking for, right? That board is looking for how you are going to take those skills that you've developed. And you're gonna bring them up into the boardroom at a governance level. And I think they were the when we began, all of these ladies were lacking that connection to the boardroom. And many of them had not spent a lot of time there. So it was hard for them to see it and hard for them to conceptualize it because they hadn't lived it, right? But by the time we get to the end and we went around the room and we asked that question again, boy, we were succinct, weren't we? We Rebecca Snyder: It was great. Suzanne Miglucci: we it was great. I mean, we we we knew how to package it. So I would say the advice would be, Get yourself invited to that boardroom and experience it as much as you can. Do a lot of studying. One of the things that we shared with our Executive Alliance cohort was to read the big four, you know, EY, Deloitte, and DASDAC. There's a lot of organizations out there that publish tremendous information about board work and what's happening in the boardroom, what's important to the boardroom, what are some of the key things that boards are grappling with today. If you can study some of this. What's going to happen is you'll realize how the backward looking skills can actually be articulated as a boardroom skill going forward. That piece to me, to answer your question, was missing. We missed Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Suzanne Miglucci: that in that initial round with the cohort. We we built it up and over time we actually helped these women package it and go to market with it. But I think that a lot of people leaving the C suite haven't done the work to understand what that pathway is. It's always painful when I get a client that says, Hey, I retired, Suzanne. Now you guide me on my pathway to the border. And I think, my gosh, I do Macaulay Culkin. I wish you had told me two years ago so that we could work on this together. You had a, you are right there in the thick of it and you didn't even know it. And we could have helped package you at that time. So don't miss the moment that you have. You've created a situation where you're in this you're in the C-suite, you're an executive, or work your way to that point and then get that access so that you know how to do that packaging. Rebecca Snyder: I think also with the program what was so and I agree, like so many of the women were like, Okay, I'm I'm I'm ready and next year I want to really, you know, focus on this and getting my portfolio together. But the you need to start a lot earlier than I anticipated on this. And so that's why we've kind of backed up the timeline of that program to say women who in the next five years are considering because if you've if you haven't made yourself visible. If you haven't started to become a thought leader in certain areas and raise your visibility, that's a really short runway. so Suzanne Miglucci: Exactly. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: I was also wondering with the the benefit of of one the first cohort under your belt, what is the benefit of working in a small group as opposed to one-on-one? Suzanne Miglucci: Mm. So I think that they're both valuable. Rebecca Snyder: Absolutely. Suzanne Miglucci: when when you're one-on-one, there's so much attention on you and your skill set and and you can get there fast, right? But you miss the opportunity to hear what others think of you or what others think of themselves as they're doing their packaging. And there's such a benefit to having peers running parallel with you, going through a similar process. listening to their learnings, understanding where they're stubbing a toe, understanding where their shortcomings might be and how you you've repackaged those shortcomings, how to how to best articulate yourself. Sometimes when you're listening to someone else go through their process, you can learn so much more about yourself, as long as you're, you know, willing to to listen. You gotta really put your listening ears on. Too often you get in these cohorts and you're your time to shine has you know passed and other people are speaking and too too many folks go into their own sort of world and they write their notes down and they're thinking about themselves. Those that pick their heads up and listen to all of the others going through the process gain so much more. It's an incremental gain because you've experienced not only your own pathway but seven others that are around you. So doing so in a cohort while while not everyone was aligned on what what markets we were from or the size of companies we've served or the kind of work we've done, there's still a commonality in governance. And so there's a lot that you can do to hear others and use bits and pieces of that for yourself where it might be appropriate. Rebecca Snyder: And I think also and that makes a lot of sense. I'm also feeling like when you were talking about all the things that need to be reframed and done as part of a board readiness program, that's a lot of things. And it's really difficult to do on your own. I mean, it's not impossible, but just the sheer education of well, what boards might be available to someone of my skill set. You know, what i what are all these pieces? Oftentimes we stay in our career sort of, okay, I'm focused on the work and aren't looking around. Suzanne Miglucci: That's exactly right. And and you know, I will say I I tripped up there when I was first getting ready to after my IPO, I I think I'm gonna go into board work. One of the things that I realized really quickly is that my network wasn't sufficient. So I had this beautiful network. I mean, thousands of people, every one of them in marketing. And how many marketing people do you know that are really aware of all the board roles that are opening up around you? Very few, right? Because you're doing your marketing work. And so what I learned is I should have two years ahead of my exit gotten closer to the auditors in the company that I served, gotten closer to the lawyers that were both inside and outside council. These are the people that are in the room when the board decides whether or not they're going to open their slate, right? And so they're the ones that know when the opportunities are available and they're the ones that should be in your network. They're the ones that should know that you're ready and interested in board service when it should arise. They're the ones that should have your bio in hand so that. When they see something, they can say, I know that I know Rebecca. Let me tell you a little bit about Rebecca. But they're not the one articulating it, your bio is the one articulating it, right? And if you don't have that network to rely on, you're starting from scratch. Because, and you're right, there's so many moving pieces. There's what are your value propositions? how do you write your bio in an effective way? How do you write a resume which is vastly different? How do you campaign yourself out there into your network? What associations do you become part of? Do you do you need a certification or do you not need a certification? And then what is the interview like? How do I listen to the question and really interpret what they're saying so that I don't fill the room with my career path and then I'm I'm at the end Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Suzanne Miglucci: and they didn't get to ask any other questions? All of those moving pieces need to be thought through so that you don't find yourself in a situation that's an opportunity and you're not ready. There's there's a lot of preparedness. And so I would say to those of you thinking about board service, know that it's a commitment to get yourself ready and in market. It's I wouldn't say it's a full time job to find a job as you some people sometimes say, but it's it's Rebecca Snyder: But it felt like a part time job. Suzanne Miglucci: it's darn close, right? It it you can be as aggressive about it as you like or you can be as laid back, but I think that the results will be commensurate with the amount of work that you put into it. It is work, but it's such enjoyable work because in the process you get to meet other board directors or other people that do governance work. And it makes you that much more articulate in that space. So get out there, package yourself, find a good find a collection of mentors, find a great program like the Executive Alliance program to help guide you along because these are not things that you should know intuitively. These are things that you need to learn. And somebody it's great to work with somebody that's been there before you that can help you Rebecca Snyder: No, I agree. It's the it is the power of mentorship, advocacy, and education, which is what Executive Alliance does and you've exemplified in your career. and so we're so grateful to have your support and your expertise because having those diverse leadership spaces is critical to to everyone's success. So Suzanne, thank you so much for spending some time with me. This was terrific. And I look forward to working with you this year. Suzanne Miglucci: Thank you, Rebecca. Always so fun. Always so fun to work with you and speak with you. And good luck to everyone. on your board journey, we need more qualified board directors in this pipeline, so go out and build your network. Rebecca Snyder: Absolutely. Thank you.