Latest / The Catholic Current / Our Collapse: Diagnosis & Prescription (Msgr. Charles Pope) 7/28/26

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Our Collapse: Diagnosis & Prescription (Msgr. Charles Pope) 7/28/26 · The Catholic Current

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This is The Catholic Current with Father Robert Matthei.
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When I think back to the Apostolic Fathers, those who
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learned at the feet of the Apostles, I mean, imagine hearing
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the voice of Saint John describe embracing the
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risen Lord. That would be a life-altering thrill.
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But to quote the poet, the thrill is gone, isn't it? You're right.
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And you know, I often think of The Church Is One Foundation where it talks
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about how the Church victorious will be the Church at rest. We've decided
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to skip ahead and become the Church at rest now.
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Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McKeague of the Society of Jesus,
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your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and
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the world to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross Studios,
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your local radio station, and the iCatholic Radio mobile app, and we proclaim
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the fullness of truth with clarity and charity. As always,
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let's start with prayer. In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
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Almighty God, through the intercession of Saint Ignatius Loyola, we ask that you pour forth
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your Holy Spirit upon us, a spirit of discernment that
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might hear your voice and obey your command. In the name of the Father,
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Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Friends, many, many years ago, Mark Twain
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had said, everyone complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it.
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And I know there's a lot of bellyaching about gloom and
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doom and fall, etc., and that sort of stuff is
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just music to my ears. You know, I describe myself as a dark,
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brooding, melancholic Irishman with an apocalyptic imagination. But I
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think it'll be helpful to have both an accurate diagnosis of
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what's ailing us right now and also begin to look at
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a distinctively Catholic prescription. And Mirabile Dictu,
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someone whose work I respect for years, has been writing about these
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very things. He's the pastor of Holy Comforter St.
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Cyprian Parish in Washington, D.C., my parish
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when I lived in Washington, D.C. before I became a Jesuit.
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Monsignor Charles Pope, welcome back to The Catholic Current. Well, it's great to be
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here. Thank you. Monsignor, you had a catchy title in a recent essay
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called What Ails Us? The Rise of the Imperial Autonomous Self.
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And I said, well, gosh, that sounds like the kind of thing that I would
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write. Prompted you in Washington, D.C.,
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uh, where everyone lives happily ever after, what prompted you to write
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that essay? Well, I think it's just, you know, the constant ongoing frustration
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that, I mean, when, when you— when we start to get so lost that
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someone can't even say what is a woman, or, uh, we— people argue,
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I mean, they, they expect to be taken seriously, right, that a
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man can have a baby. I mean, right, what has happened to us? How did
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we get here? And of course, we could go all the way back to,
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uh, you know, uh, Locke and Hume or Descartes, you But I'm
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just kind of looking at something here that I originally got from George
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Weigel and also Cardinal or Pope Benedict about
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the tyranny of relativism. So I wrote a little bit about it and
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tried to describe it as the imperial autonomous self. Well,
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you know, I saw some of the congressional interviews
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had with deans of medical schools who were absolutely tongue-tied
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about who can give birth. And who can't. So I
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say, but we're, we're really in a bad place if that happens.
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I remember every— one of the reasons I gave up teaching was because, you know,
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the start of every academic year, some introductory philosophy class, and you've got some 18-year-old
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kid with his hat on backwards, and, uh, he says, well, you know,
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Father, you have your reality and I have my reality.
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And I said, well, why is it that in your reality and my reality,
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you, you and I both fall out of the window at the same rate of
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speed? Why did you pick a reality where beer makes you stupid?
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And why, oh, why did you ever pick a reality wherein the cutoff
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for this, for an A in this class, is a 95?
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Why did you pick that reality? And then he would be kind
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of tongue-tied. And I don't know about you, Father, but under holy obedience,
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I've had to go to different meetings of male and female members of
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different religious communities, and there's always someone who says that she wants to
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announce her truth, and we all nod solemnly.
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And then when I say, my truth is different from your truth, I like to
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call it the truth. Somehow that's ruled out of bounds. So you can't
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really be a thoroughly consistent relativist, can you? No,
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of course not. Because in effect, you know, you deny
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it in the very act of announcing it, right? By calling
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it a truth, right? And then putting a my in front
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of it. But all of that, you know, I think, you know, for me,
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I think, you know, yeah, I would say that in
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the past, you know, not too long ago, actually, reality was something
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that we went out to meet. And study and obey.
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And in fact, it's the whole source of the scientific method, let alone
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other questions about moral truths and so on. I mean, the scientific method basically
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says reality is not just dumbly there, it's intelligible, and I
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can study it and provide— it'll provide me real answers,
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and I'll have a way forward. That's all kind of been set
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aside now. And yeah, we have to, you know, all the
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is-ness of things is gone. And reality now is
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what I say it is, by God, is what I say it is. And of
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course, I'd have a reference here to, you know, that horrifying statement from
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the Supreme Court back in the '90s, written by the Catholic Justice
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Kennedy. He said, at the heart of liberty is the right
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to define one's own concept of existence,
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of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human
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life. Well, there can't be liberty in that kind of a framework,
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because we just end up arguing. And fighting. And the only one who wins the
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argument, if there's no reality to, you know, or no
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revelation to point to, is the one who yells the loudest, has the most money
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or power or access. And so that's what we mean. That's what the Pope meant
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by the tyranny of relativism. Well, I will point out that Catholic
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Justice Kennedy, who was a champion for abortion rights,
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also got an award from Fordham University
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Law School as being a champion defender of human rights.
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I would say he actually undercut human rights by undercutting human nature,
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and that's why I'm not invited to the better kinds of parties. So,
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we're in a situation now where, you know, when someone used
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to think he was Napoleon, he got help and medication
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and a safe place to live. But now, the new euphemism— I don't know if
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you've heard this one, Senior— is he's a participant in
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non-consensus realities.
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Don't we love our words? It's just laughable.
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Well, yes, until it becomes dangerous, because in the previous administration—
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and in criticizing the previous presidential administration, I'm not implying
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any endorsement of any other presidential administration— the
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Federal Aviation Authority wanted to have people with mental
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illnesses be more represented as
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pilots and air traffic controllers? Well, yeah,
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it seems to me there— you can be wrong if you're a professor
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of literature. You can't afford to be wrong as an air traffic controller,
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and the results are immediate and disastrous.
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And yet it seems that this is what all the cool kids are about.
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But reassure us, Monsignor, reassure me, baptized Catholics
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are immune to this nonsense, aren't they? Don't we wish?
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Oh my, if only we really learned our
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faith and saw the whole world through the gospel lens. But most Catholics,
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unfortunately, as we all know, and it's sad, it's— and I
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don't take, uh, I accept some of the blame for it, you know.
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I wish I could teach more effectively and get out there and explain,
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but at the end of the day, the culture is so pervasive and Catholics have
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turned everything around, so they judge the gospel by the world. When the world
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is supposed to be on trial through the gospel lens. Right. It's all backwards.
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Well, it doesn't sound right. I mean, come on, you know,
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why is the Lord saying that, you know, people can't have sex with the same
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sex? And, you know, you know, and so again,
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it's the Lord that gets put on trial and the gospel rather
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than the world, which we are not to love. We are
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to love enough to call it away from itself, but we're not to be
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of the world. And yet, most Catholics are now.
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Well, yes. Remember, I go back to The Screwtape Letters,
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one of my favorite books, and Screwtape talks about the movement of Christianity
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and Christianity in the present crisis, Christianity and spelling
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reform. And our Lord and his gospel becomes
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subordinated, becomes the mascot, the useful tool
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for, you know, whatever our pet cause is.
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You know, surely our Lord would not drive an SUV or Surely,
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Our Lord would only drive a Tesla until, you know,
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Elon Musk became unpopular. Then apparently, Our Lord turned in the
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Tesla. And it seems to— you know, I talk on the air very often about
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what I call the People Who Should Really Know Better Club. And then there are
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senior Catholic cadres of the People Who Should Really Know Better
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Club. And when I read the Gospels, and I read Benedict
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XVI, and then sometimes I go wild and I read Benedict XV and Pius
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XI and Pius X and Leo XIII,
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these guys knew what was up. They knew what the danger was.
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They could name it explicitly, and they were really very clear
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about the remedy. And the remedy is always, always,
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always turning to Jesus of Nazareth
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as Son of God and Son of Mary, Lord and Savior, and dare
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I say it, King. And, uh, somehow, uh,
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we've lost that thread of conversation,
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and I want to talk more in the next segment about what that costs
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us, because I think the degree to which we drink in the
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ambient culture, to that same degree, a right
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response to the gospel becomes compromised. And that concerns
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me very greatly. I, I think that, uh,
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souls are not being well served if
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we try to be worldly and just have our
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Lord in the background as kind of a mascot to
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validate our efforts to be the, the Newman Center for the United Nations or
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to be on the payroll as kind of a religious NGO.
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I think we can do very much more than that, and I think that involves
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taking up the cross. I'm not the stuff that martyrs are made out of,
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so I say that with fear and trembling, but I think that we have some
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very serious work to do. Friends, when we come back, we're going to continue our
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conversation on this Timely Tuesday with Monsignor Charles Pope, whose work I've
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been following for years. We're going to link to some of his work, and he's
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also the pastor of Holy Comforter St. Cyprian Church in Washington, D.C.
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Remember, rallying cry of the Catholic Current is Christus Mundo, Mundus Christo— bringing
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We're going— we're doing a diagnosis and also some prescriptions
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for our cultural and civilizational malaise, even decline.
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My returning guest is Monsignor Charles Pope. Monsignor, you've been doing a series
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of essays I've been following closely. You talked about the
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stages of hunger and starvation, and so that's
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what it does to the body. But what does spiritual starvation do
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to the soul and to culture? Can you walk us through that, please?
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Yeah, it's, uh, let me just list the stages of starvation that are noted
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in the medical world. And I think you'll already start to hear the connections,
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I mean, to our spiritual starvation, but it
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starts to— starvation starts with weakness and leads to confusion,
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irritability, immune deficiency. We— the body starts to
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feed on its own tissues and the internal organs begin
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to shut down. And there are hallucinations,
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convulsions and muscle spasms and irregular heartbeat.
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Then finally a sleepy and comatose state. And then
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death itself. And so these are the great sad stages
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of starvation. But I think, you know, just to start
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with the first one, like weakness, I mean, there's obviously a great moral
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weakness in our culture. You know, self-discipline is on hold and self-control.
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Many are too weak to keep commitments like marriage or priesthood or religious
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life. They were all, you know, there's struggles with addiction.
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Many claim they're not really responsible for what they do, but basically the weakness
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that is unreasonable to expect people to take
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a biblical morality and live it. And that's where weakness comes in.
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So, right. And then, of course, you know, we talked already about confusion,
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next stage, how the mind starts to get cloudy. And there's confusion today
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about even the most basic moral issues. I mean, how could we be so
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darkened in our intellect that we think it's okay to kill a baby in the
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womb, or that a woman can be a man, or a
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man can have a baby and lactate. And this is— this,
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this just shows, you know, as I say, certainly confusion and
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later on hallucination, you know. Right. But, um,
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and then of course irritability. You know, when I haven't— I've missed a meal or
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two, which is rare for me,
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I'm sorry to admit, but there— but irritability.
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So we see a lot of anger in our culture, you know, loss of respect
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for elders, fighting and shouting. And, and then comes immune deficiency.
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We cannot ward off the increasing attacks of the diseases of sin,
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right? We, we more easily give way to temptation.
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We're not living in a state of grace very often, and,
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and, uh, we, we see that sin spreads and we're less capable of fighting it
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off. And then the body begins to feed on its own muscle tissue
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once the fat cells are depleted. We kill— and so what do we do?
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We kill our own children in utero. We, we use embryos for research.
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We euthanize the elderly. And we, you know,
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in more maybe significant ways.
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We also amass huge amounts of debt to throw at our, our children
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and grandchildren. And, and then the internal organs actually begin
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to shut down. And again, all the institutions of our Western
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culture are becoming dysfunctional and hostile to good
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living, and our families are in crisis. And, you know, I can go on
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like this, but if you want to, I can, I can bring it all to
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the end, or do you No, I think we're at a point now where
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we have to say there really is something terribly wrong
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with the way we're living. This is not what happy, healthy people
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do. We're doing horrendous damage.
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We've ignored the fact, for example, that, you know, overall children tend
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to benefit when they're raised by their parents
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and to be raised in a 2-parent house. I mean, you know, the best
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predictor of social malady is to be raised without a father. Father in
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the home. This used to be so obvious that we didn't need to state
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it, and now it's considered hate speech. So this
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is where you say, hey, you know what, someone needs to show up and say,
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you know, I'm from the Church and I'm here to help. But it seems to
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me that Catholic Cadres of the People Who Should Know Better Club, they seem to
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be as empty-handed as everybody else. Am I misperceiving this?
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No, I'm afraid not. I think right now the view that pervades
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Rome, particularly if we can just go there, Sure, because it's
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an easy target. But we start to see that the whole modus operandi
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seems to be, let's embrace the world. And there are very shocking
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statements coming from the synodal process that says we can't allow dogma
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to eclipse the lived experience of people
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today. Well, wait a minute, that's why we need dogma. Well,
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yeah. Oh no. Now the early church distinguished itself from the
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world, you know, come out of her, my people, you know, don't be like the
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world, you know, the world will hate you, do not love the world or anything
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in the world, and on and on I could quote. But we seem to just
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want to run to the world and say, we love you, world. How can we
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be better in, in, you know, in relationship with you?
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And it's all on the world's terms when— right, you know, well,
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as you know, I mean, we— I'm sure, you know, I've heard you talk about
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this many times, so I don't need to, uh, add to your great words about
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it. But it is a very serious problem. It's a very serious problem
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in the church today. No leadership, no teaching, Just listening and
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learning. When I hear these things, I said, you know, I'm not sure these
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people ever read The Imitation of Christ by Thomas à Kempis.
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I, you know, I don't know how you can do this. You know, hey,
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we're just like the world except that we have older buildings. That doesn't
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seem to be very compelling, and it seems
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to be a form of pious excuse-making.
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I'm a sinner. I'm a sinner as long as I can remember, and I
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know that I have a lot of mileage on my odometer when comes
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to making excuses for sin. It always ends
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badly. And I'm old enough now to realize, gosh, you know, sin is really boring
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and stupid. I should cut that out. But it seems that there
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are people in the church who haven't gotten that
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notification just yet. And this is where my Irish melancholy
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can become paralyzing. How do we have an inflection
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point? How do we convince people this isn't working.
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Yeah, you know, I, I like to often point out some of the dysfunctionality
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in my preaching, you know, when I'm in the pulpit. And I,
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you know, I, I start— I think sometimes, Father, we have to remember the
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most basic thing when we— you, you and I are preachers.
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The most basic fundamental experience that everybody has,
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and it's so basic they don't even know they have it, but simply this: you,
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I, we have an infinite longing, right?
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Now, that first of all proves the existence of God, because the world is finite
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and something cannot give what it does not have, right? So where did that infinite
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longing come? And people have to admit it, you've never been— I've never been satisfied,
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right? Oh, this world becomes so tedious after a while. What,
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what's the latest thing? And we just keep doing that, but it doesn't work.
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And people get it, get that, right? And to start right there at that most
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basic experience, you see You have an infinite longing
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because someone who is infinite put it there and said, your heart is
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made to look for me. And then begin to
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get people to start to see how dissatisfying the world is.
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Now, people are willing to talk about how bad off the world is, but it's
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done through a political lens. So obviously, you know, the left wing is like,
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oh my gosh, the whole country, democracy is dead. And on the right side,
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you know, we're talking about all the other ends of these family values. And even
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there, you know, it tends to be more political, but to get people back on
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board with the basic biblical biblical context that this world is,
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is, is not— it's, it's under the prince of this world,
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Satan. And if you don't allow— if you don't resist temptation,
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he's going to drag you to hell, right? And everyone you love.
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And so engage the battle and fight the good fight, you know. And I
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think that's summoning people to the right battle, you know. If you're going to climb
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the ladder of success, make sure it's leaning up against the right wall.
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Yeah, you know, yeah, there are some prizes we really don't want
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to win. You know, a very dear friend of mine was made a bishop some
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time ago. And I said, well, I'm happy for the
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church because you're orthodox, you really do believe. And I
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said, and best of all, you don't have a craven need to
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be liked. And I'm sad to say that virtue has served
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him well in his years in the episcopate. It seems to
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me that Catholics who should know better are craving
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the approval of the world and not the approval of
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our Lord. How do we fix that? Yeah, at the end of the day,
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you know, the old, uh, the old virtue that's never preached anymore—
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the fear of the Lord. You know, it frees us from
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this, this pointless fear of every other human being.
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We fear every human being more than we fear God. And the Lord says,
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well, let me simplify your life. Have a deep reverence. Hold me in
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wonder and awe. And, um, let me
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become that center of, of what you— the one thing that unites
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your whole life. Let me be on the throne and you,
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you know, you will fear me in the sense of not— well, survival fear,
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if that's all you got, go with it. But we would also hope for a
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higher fear that I really love God. Yeah, right. It does.
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Yeah. But if you ideally, it comes to a higher level of that
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filial fear that just says, God's been so good to me. I don't want to
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offend him or hurt him or hurt his external And so,
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there is this old virtue that we used to
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talk about called the fear of the Lord. And if the Lord
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is basically saying, if you will fear me, you just have to fear one.
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But if you don't, you will fear 10,000 times 10,000
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people with contradictory demands and so on,
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and you'll be torn to pieces. Right, right. As I said,
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there is that inclination to want to be liked. There is inclination to want to
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be comfortable. Like I said, I really don't think I'm the stuff that martyrs are
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made of unless there's a very dramatic divine intervention on God's part.
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So, I have to tread lightly when I say these things. But again,
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my elevator pitch for the faith is to walk up to anyone and say,
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look, I know you're miserable, and you're miserable because you live in a world that
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is antithetical to Christ. Let me help you with that.
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And we have to say that some people are wrong,
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and some people are doing hurtful and wicked things that
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need to stop, and we need to offer
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a genuine alternative and show that there are people who
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are happy doing it. And so we need people
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who not only can give the testimony with their words, although we certainly need that,
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we also need to give— have witnesses who give testimony with
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their lives. It's been my privilege lately to get to
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know a community of religious women, and I say about them, they love our
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Lord so much that they actually want to worship him. I said,
24:04
I don't know if that'll ever catch on, but I think it would be— the
24:08
world would be a much better place if we did, where people got
24:11
together because they loved our Lord so much that they
24:16
want to worship him. And that's so different from dragging yourself
24:20
to Mass to meet some obligation and
24:23
then running out of the building as if it were on fire as soon as
24:27
it's seemly to do so, because it's where the world is,
24:31
where the more important things are. We need to have Catholics who
24:34
can give testimony with their prayer their worship, their words, and their lives that
24:40
Christ is sufficient for the human heart. He's the absolute necessity
24:45
for human satisfaction, and to the degree that we're separated from
24:49
him, large and small, to that same degree we are in
24:52
fact miserable. Friends, we come back and continue our conversation with
24:56
Monsignor Charles Pope on this timely Tuesday. You want to stay with
25:00
us for the whole hour because we end up with you and me,
25:03
uh, sharing timely thoughts, reflecting on what we've heard today.
25:07
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25:11
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25:18
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25:33
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26:00
This is The Catholic Current from the Station of the Cross Catholic Media
26:04
Network. Catch up on an episode you've missed or share them with your family and
26:08
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TuneIn, and the iCatholic Radio mobile app.
26:19
Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus.
26:22
Your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and
26:26
the world to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross Studios,
26:29
your local radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app, and we proclaim
26:32
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26:36
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26:41
Here on The Catholic Current, we engage issues seriously and faithfully, and that
26:44
intellectual freedom exists because we are listener-funded. Support us at
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thestationofthecross.com. On this timely Tuesday, we're talking about
26:53
Civilizational and Cultural Collapse, and we're offering both a diagnosis and prescription. My returning
26:57
guest is Monsignor Charles Pope.
27:01
Monsignor, you have a really interesting essay that
27:05
came out about a week or so ago called How Civilizations Rise
27:09
and Fall in 8 Stages. And I thought back to
27:13
a quote from the late Cardinal George, because he knew
27:17
that the Church has a wonderful history of not only outliving
27:21
its would-be pallbearers, but helping civilizations start from scratch.
27:25
So he had a famous quote, which is unfortunately often cut off.
27:29
He says, I expect to die in my bed. I expect
27:32
my successor to die in prison. I expect his successor
27:36
to die in the arena. And then it's cut off. But the
27:39
last statement is, and I expect that one's successor to
27:43
help rebuild the civilization from the rubble, as the
27:47
church has done before. The church really
27:51
is a hardy perennial. Can you walk us through
27:54
these stages of civilizational decline, and then we can
27:58
talk about what role the Church can play in search and rescue.
28:01
Yeah, because cultures and civilization may come and go, but the Church is indefectible.
28:06
I think I've heard you said though, say one time that it might— it
28:10
doesn't mean it'll be huge and every— all over the world. It could be just
28:12
20 families living in Kentucky with
28:17
a bishop and a priest, but you know, you get the idea. But okay,
28:20
but yeah, the stages of civilization how they
28:23
rise and how they fall, the first thing is from bondage to
28:27
spiritual growth. Okay. Um, you know, all the,
28:30
the great civilizations were formed in, in the crucible of suffering.
28:34
You know, 400 years the ancient Jews were in Egypt. The church came out of
28:38
300-some years of persecution. American culture or
28:43
civilization was formed by injustices that grew. Um,
28:46
and so suffering, it brings wisdom. And it demands a kind
28:50
of a spiritual discipline. So that goes to the second stage,
28:54
from spiritual growth to great courage.
28:57
Having been steeled in the cauldron, if you will, or the crucible
29:01
of suffering, courage and the ability to endure great sacrifices
29:05
come forth. And so again,
29:10
we start to see how leaders start to emerge and
29:14
they summon people to courageous acts of sacrifice.
29:17
And, you know, taking— and so there's a magnificent magnificent. You go from
29:21
bondage to spiritual growth, from spiritual growth to great courage,
29:25
from courage to liberty. The people rise up and they vanquish the foe,
29:30
and greater justice, we pray, emerges, and so on.
29:33
And the virtues that drew them
29:37
to this great struggle are still present.
29:40
So we go then from courage to liberty, but then liberty starts to
29:44
head us over the hill a little here. Liberty goes toward abundance.
29:48
And of course, I'm a great believer in, you know, free markets and so
29:51
on, you know, not, not, you know, in the way the church understands it,
29:55
right? But, uh, the, the greater prosperity is a beautiful
29:58
thing, but it also starts to, uh, I mean, it could get us a little
30:02
bit too comfortable, and we just like the abundance and we want to live off
30:05
the carcass, and we forget all the sacrifices and disciplines,
30:10
you know, that, that brought us this liberty and abundance. Then abundance goes
30:14
to complacency, unaware of very serious trends
30:17
that undermine health and the ability to sort of thrive. Well, everything looks fine,
30:21
you know, all those dour people like Father McTague,
30:25
you know, on the radio, just, just, oh, they're so dour, you know. And so
30:28
there's a kind of a— yeah, so there's
30:32
complacency, and then complacency leads to apathy. There's a growing lack of attention
30:36
to disturbing trends. I mean, look, 17% of
30:40
Catholics go to Mass today in this country, and we're not
30:44
even talking about Okay, enough said there. But civilization starts to
30:48
be replaced by personalization and privatization. Now I
30:52
got mine, you know, I don't need to worry about anybody else. You do you.
30:56
And then from apathy, we go to dependence. Increasing number of peoples now lack
31:00
the virtues necessary. Being good and
31:04
virtuous seems too hard, and suffering of any kind
31:07
seems intolerable. So we start to turn to big government or
31:11
other big agencies and say, you take care of me, you raise my
31:15
kids, you know, you, And then finally, we go from dependence back into bondage,
31:19
because we know that centralized power becomes increasingly
31:23
dark and despotic, and we're back into
31:27
bondage. And there we are. I think we're,
31:30
you know, there's a lot of back and forth, you know, is this the worst
31:33
crisis ever? Is this the worst stage ever? I don't know how one can really
31:37
adjudicate that question decisively.
31:40
And after a certain point, I suppose it doesn't matter. The truth is,
31:44
these are our times. And these are our times that do not facilitate
31:48
health and happiness. I mean, back, gosh, all the way when I was
31:52
a college student, I would talk— I was very proud of myself for this phrasing—
31:55
the conditions of possibility to be together well.
31:58
Basically, it's the building blocks of civilization, and we've been
32:02
destroying those building blocks and not making more for a very long
32:06
time. And when I look at history, I know that when Catholics are
32:10
faithful they can help stem the tide and
32:15
also provide the ark that people need to survive the
32:19
challenges and the dangers that are coming. But there's a
32:23
phrase I saw recently, and I want your take on it because, you know,
32:25
you're in the trenches, you're a pastor. He said, you know, for some reason we've
32:29
turned the bark of Peter, that metaphorical image of
32:32
the church, we've turned the ship of Peter into a cruise ship when
32:36
it's meant to be a battleship. Can I get your thoughts
32:40
on that, please? You know, I wrote an article years ago on that.
32:43
Is the church a cruise ship or a battleship? Okay. You would not believe the
32:46
pushback I got. Oh, is that right? How dare, how dare
32:50
you compare the church to an instrument of war? You know, that kind
32:53
of stuff. And I said, come on, lighten up. It's an image,
32:57
right? You know, I know all throughout we're told to take up the battle,
33:00
you know, all through scriptures and so on. We're supposed to be the church militant.
33:04
I love No, right. But anyway, so you see what happened to me. People are
33:07
so accustomed to this sort of, um, you know,
33:10
Jesus said take up your pillow and follow me, you know, that,
33:14
you know, the idea of a battle or a cross is like, oh,
33:17
that doesn't sound like the Jesus I know. Well,
33:20
that's because you're working— you got a fake Jesus in your head. You got to
33:23
get to the real one, right? Anyway, but all that said, I think that,
33:27
yeah, to engage, uh, the battle, we as a church have to offer
33:32
an alternative. And that's the biggest trouble. Like, again, I go back to
33:35
the early church. They distinct— they made themselves different from
33:39
the world. They lived differently. They had— and so on. The key was to
33:44
not be like the world. But this seems
33:47
to be completely lost, even at the highest levels of leadership in the
33:51
church. Oh, we're supposed to get along with everybody. Everybody should,
33:54
you know, the worst thing in the world is that somebody might get offended.
33:56
Offended. And then, well, Jesus, look at what's he doing on that
34:00
cross if he didn't offend some people? I mean, right, I don't intend to offend
34:04
anybody, but if I preach, well, that's not the way, we should walk this way,
34:08
you're going to get pushback. If you're getting flak, you're over the target. And we
34:12
got to get used to that again and be steeled for battle. But we're
34:16
not. And the worst thing, like you said, most priests fear is being rejected by
34:19
the congregation. Well, because, yeah, because that might affect the collection.
34:24
You know, it's funny, when I made some observations about,
34:27
you know, we tell our children the Eucharist is the source and summit of our
34:30
lives, and but they don't believe us, and rightly so, because of the
34:34
way we behave at Mass. The shouts of indignation,
34:37
literal and figurative, that I would get, because apparently it's the job
34:41
of the priest to just do cartwheels if
34:45
anybody allows God to interrupt their weekend at
34:49
all. If, if, and if adults show up in SpongeBob
34:52
SquarePants t-shirt and put on only one hand to receive Holy Communion, by golly,
34:56
Father, you better be happy. Have you run
35:00
into that too, that your main job is not to notice fault?
35:03
Yeah, that's right. And it's the worst thing in the world is to cause
35:07
any possible offense. Right. And I've been blessed
35:11
to primarily pastor in African American parishes, and there's
35:15
still a legacy of the appreciation for the Word of
35:19
God. And so I get something like, oh, Father, you stepped on my
35:22
toes today. You know, I mean, there's still some appreciation for the the
35:26
fact that, you know, good sermons and good preaching in the gospel doesn't
35:31
just comfort the afflicted, it also afflicts the comfortable. And we're all a little bit
35:34
of both. And we've lost this idea. I do a lot of priest retreats,
35:38
and, um, uh, I often finish with the 2 Timothy,
35:42
you know, the exhortation. He says, um, to, to the— I always
35:46
say this to my brother priests when I'm preaching a retreat for them. I say,
35:48
preach the word, be prepared in season and out of season,
35:52
reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction,
35:56
for the time come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine,
36:01
but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers who
36:05
tickle their ears, and they will turn their ears away from the truth and
36:09
turn to myths. But you be sober in all things,
36:14
endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist,
36:18
fulfill your ministry. Yeah, someone should write that down.
36:22
Yeah. Right there on the pulpit,
36:25
you know. Yeah, for sure, for sure. You know, I, I want
36:30
to encourage our, our brother priests because, as you know, showing up
36:34
and preaching the Gospel is, is hard. And more
36:38
often than not, with few exceptions, you've got a congregation that is
36:42
not prepared and probably not very interested either. So it
36:45
is, it is uphill, and we have to
36:49
be able to encourage each other. And,
36:53
you know, I go back to when we were ordained deacons and received the
36:56
commission to preach the Gospel, and the bishop put the book of the Gospels in
37:00
your hand and said, receive the Gospels of Christ, whose herald you
37:03
now are. Believe what you read, teach what you believe, practice what
37:08
you teach. That left a mark on me, and I resolved I'm not going
37:11
to eat and sleep indoors on any day that I don't give my best to
37:15
preaching. We've got about 2 minutes left in this segment. Can we do a little
37:19
fervorino to ask our brothers to give their best to preaching. Yeah,
37:23
all I can say is, once again, that's Paul's word. Now, my only fervor,
37:26
you know, souls depend on us to tell them the truth.
37:31
And if we're not— it's like you go to a doctor and you've
37:34
got serious problems, but the doctor says, well, I don't want to upset the guy,
37:37
so I'll just tell him he's fine and send him home. That is malpractice.
37:41
It's not kindness. And we as priests have to
37:44
be very clear. We have to be kind and loving, but we also have to
37:47
be clear. And we have to in every way, uh, be clear about this is
37:51
what the scriptures and the church teach. And if it's not popular,
37:55
that's all right. You know, things come and go. And a final thought on the
37:59
church itself, like you mentioned, we have endured incredible things.
38:03
We've seen civilizations come and go, nations rise and fall,
38:07
all in the age of the church. But here we still are, preaching from the
38:11
old tattered book, but we're still preaching the same word.
38:14
All this other stuff comes and goes. The Church has to
38:17
remain, and we have to be faithful, and it will remain. I don't
38:21
know how big it'll always be, but it will remain, and I hope that I'm
38:24
in that Church, whatever its size or popularity.
38:28
You know, I think back to a young Father Ratzinger
38:32
who said that we were coming upon a time when
38:36
we would have a smaller and purified Church,
38:40
and I think we're in God's providence. We're on our way to
38:43
that right now. I know that demographically, and financially,
38:48
the structure of parishes and dioceses that we took for granted, certainly throughout
38:52
our lifetimes and my parents' lifetimes as well. I think
38:56
the clock is ticking on that structure, and we've
39:00
got some planning and purification to do, and that starts with
39:04
prayer and with penance as well. So I
39:07
want to exalt all my brothers in the clergy.
39:10
Let's learn how to be happy warriors.
39:14
Monsignor Charles Pope of Washington, D.C., thank you for conversation
39:18
today. Thank you for your priestly fraternity. God bless your good work,
39:22
and I hope we can talk again soon. Amen. Thank you. I'm Jesuit Father
39:26
Robert McTeague, your host here every day of The Catholic Current. You want to stay
39:28
with us for the rest of the hour because you know what this means.
39:31
Today is Timely Tuesday, and we end up a Timely Tuesday with timely
39:35
thoughts, you and me reflecting on what we've heard today.
39:38
And I have a lot to say. Of course, you know, I'm a dark,
39:42
brooding, melancholic Irishman with an apocalyptic imagination. I also
39:46
have an obligation to leave people with hope. So I want to share with you
39:50
some of my reflections, the fruits of my prayer, and I might tease with you
39:54
a manuscript I'm just about to finish. After the broadcast today,
39:57
go to thestationofthecross.com, get our resources list,
40:01
download our audio as podcasts, be part of the conversation. Follow what
40:05
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40:09
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40:13
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40:18
Comments, questions, suggestions, recommendations, objections,
40:21
histrionics— we read everything that you send us.
40:25
And I want to know, what's, what's your opinion? Are we being too dark and
40:28
gloomy? Are we being being, uh, Pollyanna.
40:32
What do you think? Let us know, please, to stationofthecross.com/askfather.
40:37
Back in just 2 minutes. Please do stay with us.
41:01
Have a question or feedback about today's episode?
41:04
Want to suggest a guest or a future topic? Go to
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41:13
help influence the conversation.
41:21
Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus,
41:24
your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and
41:27
the world to Christ. You're listening to us on the Station of the Cross Studios,
41:30
your local radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app. We proclaim
41:34
the fullness of truth with clarity and charity.
41:38
Well friends, here we are, the last segment of a Timely Tuesday. You know what
41:41
that means— you and me sharing timely thoughts, reflecting on what we've heard today.
41:45
My guest was Monsignor Charles Pope, and we were talking about— what
41:50
would you call it? Collapse, at least cultural collapse, a diagnosis
41:54
and prescription. So the diagnosis is we're in trouble,
41:57
and the prescription is we got to get holy in a hurry. Let me amplify
42:01
that a little bit. As I am recording this, 2 stories have
42:05
been brought to my attention, one foreign,
42:09
one domestic. We'll start with the foreign one first.
42:12
There is an island off the the coast near Spain,
42:16
um, uh, the Canary Islands. And in the city of Las
42:19
Palmas, there is a cathedral. And the
42:23
local bishop here, uh, Bishop Mazuelos,
42:27
uh, said he had, quote, no problem,
42:30
uh, when someone decided to film, shall we call it,
42:35
an art project outside of his residence and outside
42:38
the front of the cathedral on a Sunday there were
42:42
about 400 or 500 participants who— well,
42:46
they did at least 2 things in front of the cathedral in
42:50
such a way that it blocked people getting to Mass. They all got naked
42:54
and then they all got painted in the colors of the rainbow because,
42:58
you know, because. And the
43:02
bishop, His Excellency, in full communion with Rome,
43:06
said, I have no problem with this. When we go to the
43:10
beach, we see naked bodies, don't And
43:14
there were references to inclusion and representation and participation
43:19
and so on. And eventually the police did come and cut a
43:23
path through the naked people colored with paint the
43:26
colors of the rainbow so that they could get to the holy
43:30
sacrifice of the Mass at the cathedral where the bishop had
43:34
no problem with this. As I am recording this,
43:39
a friend whom I admire and respect respect very much, a thoughtful, honest Catholic
43:43
man, certainly part of the faithful remnant,
43:47
and a real pro-life champion. He is sitting
43:51
in a courtroom in California because
43:55
the California Attorney General is spending tax dollars suing
44:01
2 pro-life clinics, 2 crisis pregnancy clinics,
44:05
to the tune of $20 million.
44:08
Because they tell people that, hey, if you've
44:12
taken the abortion pill and you're having second thoughts,
44:16
there's a pill that can help reverse that and help you maintain the pregnancy.
44:21
And the state of California doesn't want you to
44:25
do that. Now, absolutely no one, precisely zero
44:30
citizens of California, have filed any complaint whatsoever
44:35
against these 2 clinics. And there have been many witnesses
44:39
that said, best choice in my life was to go to these good people and
44:44
take that reversal pill and stop the process so
44:47
that I didn't have a chemically induced abortion. And there
44:51
is manipulation of studies and, and so on, and there's a free
44:54
speech issue, and California says, really, they're lying. And what's
44:59
really going on here? If the government of California,
45:03
one of the great champions of choice,
45:08
champions of reproductive freedom,
45:13
says no, you may not tell
45:18
women how to reverse their abortion process. Now,
45:21
because of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, a lot
45:25
of in-person clinics doing abortion the hands-on old-fashioned
45:29
way. They've run into difficulties. They've run into financial
45:33
difficulties. But the numbers of abortions are increasing because
45:37
these abortion pills are being marketed as— we'll just call them,
45:42
you know, Baby Be Gone, you know, Womb Broom, No Embryo
45:46
Grow, PregNot. Bonus if you know, if you
45:49
catch those references. And that somehow you take this pill and
45:53
you become unpregnant. That's absolutely not what happens. You violently
45:57
expel the child from your body, and there's medical complications,
46:02
and you could bleed out, and it's traumatizing. And imagine some
46:05
teen locked in a college bathroom somewhere trying to do this in
46:10
a bathroom stall by herself. And that's okay.
46:13
And the state of California wants to give tax dollars to Planned Parenthood
46:17
to facilitate that process. But when
46:21
2 small pro-life clinics say, Hey,
46:24
women, there's another choice you can make,
46:28
the full weight of the state government of California falls upon
46:33
them. So, what's the moral of the story here?
46:37
Life, reality, the truth,
46:41
goodness has enemies near and far,
46:44
and has enemies both sacred and secular.
46:49
This is the world we live in. See, the question
46:53
isn't about being an optimist, being a pessimist. I mean, I could just read
46:58
headlines today about all the bad news and wars and rumors of wars
47:01
and misunderstanders of the religion of peace, you know, wading into
47:06
crowds of indigenous Europeans with machetes.
47:09
I can do that for 36 hours without taking a breath,
47:13
and you might call me a pessimist, or you might say, hey Father, you know
47:16
You know what? People did give birth today, and you offered Mass,
47:21
and priests heard confessions, and children were baptized, and spouses
47:26
said, I love you, you know, and flowers grew, and meals
47:30
were made. And so, yes, and so let's be an optimist.
47:33
I would say rather, let's be a realist.
47:37
You know, whether the glass is half empty or half full doesn't matter
47:41
if it's set on a rickety table. All right, so realistically,
47:46
until we reach eternity, we are in a spiritual
47:50
war. We are being contested for. I,
47:54
I wish I could find the, uh, the origin of this observation.
47:58
You know, the bark of Peter, the ship of Peter, which is a metaphor for
48:02
the church, is meant to be a battleship, and somehow we've let it become
48:06
a cruise ship, and we've got to equip it for battle
48:10
again. It's not enough to cultivate self-esteem
48:14
and a personal relationship with Jesus.
48:17
We're being contested for. Everyone you love is
48:21
being contested for. Every person you've ever met is
48:26
being contested for. So we have crosses to
48:29
carry and we have battles to fight. Brother James
48:33
Lemon SJ, God rest his soul, who was known as the Honey Youngman—
48:37
I thought of him as the Honey Youngman of my province said, remember,
48:41
Father, the burden isn't the crosses we carry, it's the
48:44
people who lean on the crosses we carry. And I think that
48:48
too many people are dead weight. They don't want to fight.
48:53
They don't realize they're being contested for,
48:57
and they don't want to admit there are things worth getting angry over,
49:01
and there are things worth grieving over, and there are
49:05
good things that we can do. Support Project Rachel for
49:10
men and women who've been injured by abortion. Support your local crisis
49:14
pregnancy center. Your diocese certainly has
49:18
someone. Show up and pray the rosary outside of abortion
49:22
clinics. Learn how to be a sidewalk counselor. Pray the rosary,
49:27
pray the rosary, pray the rosary in reparation for the
49:31
sins of people who should really know better.
49:34
We're in a fight. Yes, God wins at the end,
49:38
but the real question is, where will you and I be?
49:42
Which side will we have been found to be on all along
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when the battle is finally over? That is the absolutely
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decisive question. I want to show up at Heaven's
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Gate exhausted and having fight— having been fighting on
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behalf of Christ. And I want that for you too. I'm Jesuit
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Father Robert McTaggart, your host here every day of The Catholic Current. Join us tomorrow
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for another round of The Catholic Current. Great topic, great guest,
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great conversation. That's how we roll here at The Catholic Current here on
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The Station of the Cross, where we are so much more than merely relevant.
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After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com, get our resources list,
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download our audio podcast wherever you can find audio. You can
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find us. Take this to your family and friends. Together we'll take it to the
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whole world. Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Almighty God bless
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you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Go in peace, and please do pray for
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me, for I am a sinner.