Latest / Project Podcast / The Golden Thread: What is the economic contribution of the project profession?

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The Golden Thread: What is the economic contribution of the project profession? · Project Podcast

• 0:08
  Hello, welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by the
• 0:11
  childhood body for the project profession.
• 0:14
  What is the true value of the project profession to the UK
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  economy and society? That's the question that a PM
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  seeks to answer in its new research report, The Golden
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  Thread. Expanding on Research.
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  First published in 2019, the new Golden Thread report provides
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  updated data on the contribution of the project profession in the
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  context of the global disruptions of the past five
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  years. Importantly, it gives an idea of
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  how macroeconomic and social friends are impacting on the
• 0:41
  growth of project management so that you can hone your future
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  skills to capitalise on the changes to come.
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  The report, carried out by APM and PW C Research, found that
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  since 2019 the profession has created an additional 190,000 UK
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  full-time equivalent jobs, taking the total number to 2.32
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  million employees, with annual growth value added growing by
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  19% to 186.8 billion. In this podcast we share an
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  edited recording of the launch event for the Golden Thread
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  report held in London in April. We'll hear first from Samuel
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  Powell, insight consultant at PwC, who gave a short
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  presentation on the report's key findings.
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  So a lot has changed since we launched the Golden Thread five
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  years ago. We've seen global description on
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  a massive scale. The way we work has probably
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  changed forever, and many of us became so much more familiar
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  with the inside of our own homes than we probably ever wanted to
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  be. But a constant throughout all
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  that disruption were project professionals and the work that
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  they do and the change that they make at the heart of businesses
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  of all shapes and sizes. And it is raising awareness of
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  this project profession and the contribution it makes to
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  society. Which is why we came together
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  five years ago and for the first time we were able to provide a
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  robust measurement of its contribution to the economy.
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  So we're very excited to share our 2024 results, which once
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  again estimates the size and shape of the project profession
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  in the UK. So it is a unique challenge
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  estimating the economic contribution of project
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  professionals. And in collaboration with our
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  academic advisory group, we decided on the internationally
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  recognised metric GPA or gross value added as our key
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  measurement. And so our bespoke GPA tool.
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  It measures the economic contribution of project
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  professionals based on full-time equivalents in the UK workforce
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  and their input in terms of salary and wage.
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  To ensure comparability with 2019, we kept the same core
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  methodology the same while looking to improve data quality
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  and adding any additional data sources available since 2019.
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  It's really important to us that this methodology is transparent
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  and that's replicable. It will be available online
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  alongside the reports to read in further detail.
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  But to summarise for today, we came to our final figure using a
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  three stage approach, an initial data analysis period where we
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  analyse data from existing sources such as the ONS Business
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  Employment Register Survey, the APM Annual Salary Survey and the
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  specific industry sources. This was then supplemented by
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  our own survey of 567 UK businesses across the UK and
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  from 20 sectors with a focus on important sectors to project
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  management. And then finally we carried out
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  a range of interviews with subject matter experts and
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  project professionals to help validate and ensure that the
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  results reflected reality. Our academic advisory panel
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  helped us test and challenged the data to ensure that we're
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  coming up with a robust measurement.
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  Our research has found that project management has seen
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  significant growth since 2019. We estimate that there are
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  currently 2.32 million full-time equivalents in the UK workforce
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  contributing 186.8 billion of GBA annually.
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  To put that in perspective, that represents 9.2% of the total UK
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  GPA and is larger than many significant sectors, including
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  the digital sector which is valued around 158 billion.
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  Our results once again demonstrate the importance of
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  the project profession to the UK economy and how important is is
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  a cross sector competence the golden thread as we call it,
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  running throughout the whole economy.
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  So how does this compare to our data?
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  In 2019? It represents an increase of
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  almost 200,000 full-time equivalents showing more and
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  more professionals that dedicating themselves to project
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  based activities. And the increase in GBA of 19%
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  outpaces the increase of 17% of overall UK GBA growth.
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  At a sector level, we have seen steady growth in traditional
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  project management sectors, including construction and
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  business services. But we've also seen very
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  fast-paced growth in sectors like technology, energy.
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  And it is here that we're gonna expecting to see quite fast
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  demand growing for project professionals.
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  And this expectation for growth was reflected in our survey.
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  Over half of the businesses we surveyed expect growth in
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  project activity over the next three to five years.
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  And you can see that this optimism has only grown since
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  2019. This potential for growth is
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  really exciting, but it also highlights the looming risk of a
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  talent shortage. So it will be really important
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  that a robust talent pipeline is developed to ensure that
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  organisations have access to professionals with the skills,
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  the capabilities and the knowledge to manage projects
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  successfully. The event then moved into a
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  panel session with Professor Adam Bodison, chief executive of
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  APEER Sue Kershaw, President of APM, Doctor Andrew Schuster,
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  partner at PwC, and Visiting fellow at Cranfield School of
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  Management, and Doctor Espressino Constantinou,
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  Associate Professor at UCL. The panel considered trends
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  shaping, project management, how the profession might change over
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  the coming years, and key lessons to take forward.
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  Finally, the panel took questions from the audience.
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  We pick up the conversation now with moderator Gabriella
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  Ramirez, Rivas Research and Impact Advisor at APM, asking
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  Adam to provide some context and background on the latest Golden
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  Thread study. In 2019, a PM was the first to
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  attempt quantifying the actual value of the project profession.
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  What motivated you to rerun the study, and what aspects do you
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  find particularly interesting of this report?
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  Yeah, thank you. And you know I extend my thanks
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  again to all of those who've been involved in in doing the
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  work. It's it's a a groundbreaking
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  piece of work extending the original piece of work.
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  And I think it's something which is well used already by the
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  profession. I go to so many conferences and
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  events where I hear the Golden Thread research being quoted as
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  a contributor to other work that's happening.
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  So part of the reason I think for for rerunning the work is
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  that it does act as a catalyst for other work that goes on
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  across the profession which directly influences day-to-day
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  work in the profession. But to come back to the the
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  report itself and why we decided to rerun it, I think there's
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  multiple reasons. One of those for me is slightly
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  selfish from an APM perspective is we've got 45,000 members in
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  our association and you know we've seen the figures today,
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  2.32 million project professionals in the UK.
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  So there is a huge untapped group of people there that we
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  need to be having as part of the APM community.
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  They need to be part of of this wider profession.
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  Some of those people may not even know that they are project
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  professionals potentially depending on you know their job
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  title and how they are viewed within their own organisations.
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  So I think it's incumbent upon us to actually get out there,
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  identify who they are so they can benefit from the resources
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  and things that we've got. Because in turn when they
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  understand that they are project professionals therefore can
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  benefit from those resources, they have better project
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  outcomes. And of course we know that
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  benefits society. So, so that's the kind of the
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  the internal to the external. But one of the things in this
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  report of course is it tells us not just how many there are and
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  and the gap if you like, but it tells us where they are.
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  And so one of the things we have to do as a professional body is
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  decide where to focus our resources.
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  Do we go after the traditional sectors where we know all the
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  project professionals are the infrastructure, the digital, the
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  construction, all of the ones will be will be well aware of or
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  do we go after some of those that are less obvious.
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  You know hospitality for example is one of those in the quite
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  high up I I if I was to look at our representation within our
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  membership of project professionals in the hospitality
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  space, I imagine it's not representative of what we see in
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  this work. So, so we need to do that.
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  The second point I would just make is just around return on
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  investment. The question I get asked,
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  probably more than any other question when I'm out and about
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  by leaders mostly, is what's the return on investment for for me
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  and for my organisation. If I spend money upskilling my
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  workforce to be better project professionals, why should I put
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  my money into project professionals rather than I
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  don't finance or HR or marketing or any other area and so this
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  provides the evidence base for those people who are championing
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  the profession in organisations to say this is something worth
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  putting money into. Not only does it develop and
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  help us as an organisation, but it will ultimately help society
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  as well. Thank you, Adam.
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  Well, speaking about rerunning the study, we now have Andrew
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  here who was participating in both the 2024 and the 2019
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  study. So I would like to ask you
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  regarding trends, what specifically you thought was
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  interesting of this edition? First of all, what we're doing
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  for the programme project management, profession matters.
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  It mattered in the previous study, it matters now.
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  The number, when I first looked at some of the results, I
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  thought that's not actually 8-9 percent of the economy.
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  That's not a big number. That's a huge number.
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  That's one profession and its impact across the entire economy
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  and the the challenge and it's it manifests in so many
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  different ways. And what we want to do is
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  actually an unpicking that a little bit to see where we can
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  actually influence and support those people that are
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  participating in that journey. So what we do matters.
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  The second thing is you look at it from the perspective is the
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  work that we do is tied to what's happening in the economy.
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  This is a macroeconomics kind of conversation we're having right
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  now. Anyone remember Y2K and they're
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  huge investment that was we still are filling the legacy of
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  those investments and the work we're doing is still carrying
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  that work forward. Did anyone remember the
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  financial crisis of 2009 and the impact that that had et cetera.
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  We've got the COVID hit us. Those things are impacting the
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  economy. Organisations are reacting and
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  guess who takes up the the mantle for that, those those
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  challenges, it's it's our community and I pick up on the
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  point that Sam made in terms of optimism for the future, in
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  terms of growth in the in the profession, the optimism
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  somethings are growing and some things are declining.
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  But the good thing about our work is whether it's growing or
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  declining, they need us to help make those changes and make
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  those transformations. And so it's looking at some of
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  the some of the industries and sectors where we've seen
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  prominence and continued. But it's those other ones that
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  are actually quite interesting. When I was doing my studies, you
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  know, looking at doing my research, one of my research
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  projects and actually brought me to looking at project management
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  in the creative industry and looking at theatre, what we can
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  you set up a production, you know, you're setting a musical
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  on the West End. It's a project, you know, and
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  you start saying, OK, actually these people need these skills
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  and they need these insights. So how do we actually think more
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  broadly in terms of what we do and how do we enable that?
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  And I'll make one last point here.
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  And so there's a couple of things I see emerging.
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  Fundamentally, all organisations have a portfolio of investments
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  that they are making and that delivery of the work they're
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  trying to do. And there's a, there's a,
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  there's a number that's good or right for that organisation and
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  probably too much or too little. And one of the conversations I'm
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  starting to see emerge in the organisations I deal with is
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  really is what is the right size of that investment and therefore
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  what is the cap capacity. And Billy need on a programme
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  project managers to support that.
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  That's a really interesting conversation for the APM that's
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  engaging with and this research is supporting that.
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  So in terms of trends, what we do matters.
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  The data supports that and there's nuances within that.
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  And I think we can look at the subtleties, but it's very much
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  tied to what's happening in the economy.
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  So pay attention to those ups and those downs and the
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  economies and let's adjust our capability capacity accordingly.
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  I would now like to have a post a question on Change to F Your
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  work in academia places you at the forefront of emerging trends
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  shaping the future of the project management profession in
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  the UK. What changes do you anticipate
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  in the way the profession works? I would say that's it.
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  There are three trends essentially.
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  The first one is that we are seeing a lot of interest in
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  grand challenges such as the climate crisis, artificial
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  intelligence, blockchain, the whole digital agenda.
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  But also we are seeing a very significant interest in social
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  inequalities and injustices and the the the the social
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  inequalities and injustices which are actually pulling our
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  pirates, our social relationships.
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  So in the academic world, we have a very strong focus on
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  issues of project efficiency, and we do a lot of research in
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  terms of time, cost, quality and how projects can be competitive
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  and efficient. But at the same time, I see that
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  there is a very strong emphasis on the purpose of the project
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  and how projects contribute to these social inequalities and
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  injustices. 10 years ago, out of the 10 students that I was
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  supervising at UCL and nine students would be interested in
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  issues such as time, cost and quality, and only one would be
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  interested in a topic such as the climate crisis.
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  Today, that has been completely reversed.
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  So we have nine students interested in issues such as the
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  climate crisis or the refugee crisis or gender studies,
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  critical studies and only one student who is interested in
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  this is a project efficiency. The 2nd trend that I identify is
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  all around the ethics. So we are realising now that we
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  all have a set of values and ethical principles that we bring
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  into our work and that these values are so significant, they
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  are so personal, they are so subjective and that they become
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  a force which actually defines the boundaries of the project,
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  what is going to be allowed and not allowed within the project.
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  So all of these decisions that we make in our projects every
• 15:41
  day, who we are going to work with, what projects we are going
• 15:44
  to work on, what decisions we are going to make, when we are
• 15:48
  going to make these decisions. All of these decisions have a
• 15:52
  very strong ethical component and it is these ethics which
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  actually defined what is going to be allowed in the project or
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  not. The third trend that I see in
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  the academia and very much from our students as well, is the
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  relationship that we have with our work.
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  So the idea that we had in the past that in order to be a
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  professional somebody has to leave our aside, their personal
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  interests and priorities and they have to adopt A set of
• 16:26
  professional attitudes and behaviours is long gone.
• 16:31
  I see from our students that now they want to bring their
• 16:35
  interests in their projects, they want to bring their
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  priorities into their projects, they want to bring their whole
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  self within their projects. So where is the profession
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  going? I would say that based on these
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  three trends, on the emphasis and grand challenges, the ethics
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  and the relationship that we have with our work and the
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  profession is going to become a lot more inclusive.
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  We are going to start hearing a lot more voices, a lot more
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  interests, a lot more priorities, a lot more different
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  perspectives and different orientations.
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  And that is very important because the profession has in
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  that way, is going to become a lot more embedded in society and
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  we'll have a more authentic relationship with society.
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  So our profession is going to become a lot more important, not
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  only because of the reasons that we are now understanding with
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  the golden thread, but also because it's going to be a lot
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  more relevant to a lot more people and in different
• 17:38
  communities in our society. So in the academic world, I
• 17:42
  would say that we definitely have a focus on project
• 17:46
  efficiency and competitiveness, and we should research these
• 17:50
  topics. We should be able to deliver our
• 17:53
  projects on time, to cost and quality.
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  But now there is an equal focus on grand challenges, on ethics
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  and how we see ourselves as professionals.
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  And so our work, because our work is indeed, as we are all
• 18:07
  agreeing, very, very important. My last question, we'll go to
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  you. Sue, what do you think are the
• 18:13
  key lessons for the industry after going through the report?
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  To me it's all about value. We talked about TV and how much
• 18:19
  that GBA is, but this has value to the individual.
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  You are adding value to not only your client or your organisation
• 18:28
  or the part of the country you live in.
• 18:30
  You're adding value to the country you live in and if you
• 18:33
  extend that you're adding value to the world.
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  Now wouldn't that attract some generation said people into our
• 18:40
  profession and we are a young, a young profession.
• 18:43
  APM is only 50 years old and when you compare that with other
• 18:48
  say civil engineering or or accountancy or any other sort of
• 18:52
  professionalism, that is new and it's exciting and we are
• 18:56
  changing and we are agile. We are still the only profession
• 19:00
  you can come in at any level and add that value on any project in
• 19:05
  any sector and add that value and that is a human being, is
• 19:08
  what gets us out of bed in the morning.
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  I truly believe that and it's just great to have the evidence
• 19:14
  to prove it. What we do in the UK is really
• 19:17
  important. We are recognised
• 19:18
  internationally and I noticed some one of the things we need
• 19:21
  another 30 million project managers by 20-30.
• 19:24
  That isn't far away. So I'd ask each one of you when
• 19:28
  you leave here today, go back to where you work or where you live
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  and encourage someone to come into the profession.
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  It's a welcoming profession and it's making a huge difference.
• 19:38
  But there is room for improvement, though.
• 19:40
  One of the other stats in there, I think, was women are twice as
• 19:43
  unlikely to choose project management as a career.
• 19:47
  That's crazy. Absolutely crazy.
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  Because there's one thing it is totally open to anyone, and I
• 19:54
  find personally that women are very, very good project
• 19:56
  managers. Naturally, I guess it's just the
• 19:59
  way our DNA is, is fired up. So you encourage people to do
• 20:03
  that. I always look at project
• 20:04
  coordinators, for example, or project administrators, and I
• 20:08
  say you can be, you can lead this project in five years.
• 20:11
  You've got all of the basics there.
• 20:13
  Just put it together and you really will make a difference.
• 20:15
  So there's room for improvement. But it's a great celebration of
• 20:20
  our profession and I really love the way APM does the research to
• 20:24
  evidence the facts. This isn't here.
• 20:26
  Say what ifs or maybes. These are the figures.
• 20:30
  And it's a challenge to us all to keep on improving this.
• 20:33
  And when we do it in another five years time, we'll see that
• 20:36
  GVA value goes through the roof. It's a brilliant piece of work.
• 20:39
  Thank you. We're APM.
• 20:42
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• 20:45
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• 21:00
  Help you reach your potential. By visiting.
• 21:03
  Apm.org dot. UK.
• 21:05
  Because. When projects succeed, society
• 21:08
  benefits. Thank you everyone for sharing
• 21:12
  your perspectives and now I welcome the audience to post any
• 21:16
  questions and if you are targeting a specific panellist,
• 21:20
  please say so. My name is Houdini from.
• 21:25
  Investor of Hertfordshire. But my question right now.
• 21:27
  Is what is the future? For the upcoming our project
• 21:31
  management know looking into the.
• 21:34
  Future. How do we manage this affair of
• 21:38
  image changing? I mean, you talk about image.
• 21:42
  I think one of my perceptions as somebody who three years ago was
• 21:46
  not really part of this profession in a meaningful way
• 21:49
  is that our profession does have an image problem in lots of
• 21:53
  different ways. I mean, Sue referred to some of
• 21:54
  the, some of the kind of the the gender challenges we face.
• 21:57
  But actually for those outside the profession, they look at our
• 21:59
  profession and they think it's all technical.
• 22:03
  And actually that's not true. And there are technical roles in
• 22:06
  there, absolutely, but it's not all technical.
• 22:08
  Lots of it is strategic and that's important because when it
• 22:11
  comes to the kind of impacting on the economy public benefit
• 22:15
  driving some of the things that you're talking about.
• 22:17
  I see project professionals has been really key to strategy
• 22:21
  execution. So every leader of every
• 22:24
  business should be thinking, I've got a vision, I've got a
• 22:26
  strategy. How do I make sure I realise
• 22:29
  this. And for me project professionals
• 22:31
  hold the key but lots of organisations don't see that
• 22:35
  the, the and and I think we're on a a journey very similar to
• 22:40
  the marketing profession that the that the, that that
• 22:43
  profession went on and and so let me explain what I mean by
• 22:46
  that. If you go back 50 years ago the
• 22:49
  marketers weren't in the boardroom making decisions and
• 22:51
  driving strategy. They were in the backroom doing
• 22:54
  the posters, making the adverts and everything else.
• 22:56
  Now you've got chief marketing officers driving strategy and
• 22:59
  business and making a real difference.
• 23:02
  We need to have chief project officers, chief transformation
• 23:04
  officers, whatever we want to call them with that skill set
• 23:07
  and that proper function going from technical all the way up to
• 23:10
  strategic driving the kind of change.
• 23:13
  And that will I think in turn change some of the image
• 23:15
  challenges that we've got. I think project management is
• 23:19
  going to change out of all recognition in the next five
• 23:21
  years. And why is that?
• 23:23
  Several reasons. We're going to move from project
• 23:25
  management to programme management.
• 23:27
  We're going to be looking at outcomes.
• 23:29
  The complexity of these mega moving to Giga projects is going
• 23:33
  to be mind-blowing and we're going to find that even though
• 23:36
  we have all the tools and systems working really well now,
• 23:38
  they're not going to be good enough for that sort of
• 23:40
  challenge. And we've seen the mega projects
• 23:42
  fail, so we've got to be ready to move to the next step.
• 23:46
  Whether that's in governance assurance or is Nick Smallwood
• 23:49
  is is really championing. We become the integrator.
• 23:53
  We are the people on the project who own the problems and provide
• 23:57
  the solutions and then you won't have any image problem because
• 24:00
  you'll be it. But we're not there yet.
• 24:02
  We're starting the journey and again, please do get involved
• 24:06
  because it's going to be terrifically hard but great fun.
• 24:10
  Well, I would say that there is also an issue here that the the
• 24:13
  profession is open, so there is no way of identifying exactly
• 24:18
  how many people can be in the profession.
• 24:21
  I mean, we have this number which is 2.3 million, which is
• 24:24
  amazing, but how many of them are part of an organised effort
• 24:29
  to advocate for the value of that they bring into society and
• 24:34
  into their projects. So we have a small group of
• 24:38
  people now who are part of this community and it is very
• 24:41
  important that everybody comes in and everybody joins some
• 24:47
  association. There are others I don't want to
• 24:50
  distinguish of course, but but but by being organised in some
• 24:55
  sort of way we can then we're collectively to change the
• 25:00
  image. If we don't, if everybody is by
• 25:03
  themselves, if there's one project manager has one man shop
• 25:07
  and that's it, then we are never going to change the image
• 25:10
  because we're too diluted. So there is a lot to be said
• 25:13
  about the profession, not only as a as an institution of
• 25:17
  expertise development, where we prepare people to do the best
• 25:22
  that they can do when they are working on projects, but also in
• 25:25
  terms of advocating for the value of the practise in
• 25:29
  society. I wouldn't get too alarmed by
• 25:32
  the image problem that we seem to be identifying if we think of
• 25:36
  ourselves as a young profession. For part of a young profession,
• 25:40
  you know, the child that you're not at the table, you're having
• 25:42
  dinner that makes a lot of noise and say pay attention, pay
• 25:44
  attention. To me not interesting.
• 25:45
  But when they become a teenager and they start participating in
• 25:48
  the conversation and that's kind of the journey we are.
• 25:51
  So what are we seeing now? You know, I'm seeing we've
• 25:53
  already identified the chief transformation officer role
• 25:57
  merging and coming up, the the clarity and and the focus on the
• 26:01
  roles of sponsors and senior responsible owners.
• 26:03
  And they're just they're they're becoming there, they are at the
• 26:06
  table and if you look at some of the emerging trends we're
• 26:09
  looking at, you know where where are they going to go to
• 26:11
  organisations, going to go in the public sector, private
• 26:14
  sector and 3rd sector to get solve some of these problems.
• 26:17
  We've got artificial intelligence, changing processes
• 26:20
  and how we operate. Where they gonna go to get help
• 26:22
  they're gonna come to our profession.
• 26:23
  So just be at the table, be part of the conversation, add value.
• 26:28
  And I think that that whole image thing will slowly abate.
• 26:32
  The one trial problem. What we do have is language, the
• 26:34
  word project, programme, portfolio, it's it's a muddled
• 26:39
  mess and people have a connotation of those terms and I
• 26:43
  don't know how we solve that one.
• 26:44
  I don't want to get into that whole debate, but that is a a
• 26:47
  mental problem that we have. So rather I kind of say forget
• 26:50
  that, let's just let's just be at the table, Let's be part of
• 26:53
  the conversation and show how we can provide value and put
• 26:56
  whatever, you know, call yourself whatever you want, but
• 26:59
  but draw on the body of knowledge and the expertise and
• 27:02
  the things that the association of project management provides
• 27:04
  to to what we're trying to achieve.
• 27:06
  Thank you. Are there any other questions?
• 27:09
  Hello, nice to see everyone. Simon Davis, CPR.
• 27:11
  What's being done with this report to go to central
• 27:13
  government and any of the ministries and engagements with
• 27:16
  any of those bodies we're going to leverage?
• 27:18
  This, well they are here in the room today, some of those very
• 27:21
  people you're talking about. And I think you'll know that we
• 27:24
  have a good relationship with not just for example,
• 27:26
  infrastructure and projects authority, but also with the
• 27:29
  vast majority of of government departments, many of whom are
• 27:32
  corporate partners. So yeah, this is, this is the
• 27:34
  beginning of of a piece of work to leverage this right across
• 27:37
  the piece. And and I was having a
• 27:38
  conversation with some of this morning was saying it's not just
• 27:41
  the the delivery departments as it were, but it's also treasury
• 27:44
  itself that we should be engaging with.
• 27:46
  And that's not something we've done enough of, I think, in the
• 27:48
  past. Keep in mind too, I mean I'm
• 27:51
  really impressed with the work that has been done over the past
• 27:55
  decades in the public sector in the UK.
• 27:57
  I mean there wasn't the project management profession until.
• 28:00
  I mean it was we kind of started kicked it in 2004 or five
• 28:03
  formally in 2009. The OMS wasn't tracking the
• 28:06
  profession and its level of that's happening and there's a
• 28:08
  huge contingent of individuals that I'm, that's me, I want to
• 28:12
  be one of those people. So I think the, the, the
• 28:15
  conversations in the public sector are actually very active
• 28:17
  right now. There's probably more in this
• 28:19
  report that there could be, but that's true.
• 28:21
  I wouldn't say it's unique to the public.
• 28:23
  I'd say it's a broader conversation.
• 28:25
  So I think take, take, take confidence in in what's already
• 28:28
  been done and build on that. Thank you.
• 28:31
  I saw some hands there. Thanks very much.
• 28:35
  Ben Farmer from PLM. Thanks so much.
• 28:36
  Really interesting report. I wanted to ask about the
• 28:40
  geographic location and the distribution obviously is a big
• 28:42
  focus in London here today and particularly given the
• 28:47
  government's levelling up programme and and Labour's plans
• 28:49
  for those areas. If you had any insights on what
• 28:51
  needs to be done geographically or anything else from the report
• 28:55
  in terms of developing the workforce across the country
• 28:57
  where these projects are taking place?
• 28:59
  The work wasn't focused geographically.
• 29:01
  It was meant to be a macroeconomic investigation.
• 29:05
  If you're talking about the implications of that, that's a
• 29:08
  slightly different conversation. But the actual report itself was
• 29:11
  not geographically limited, if that makes sense.
• 29:15
  Now the trick I think maybe you're trying to get to is So
• 29:19
  what and how does that get translated into different
• 29:22
  regions? That would be the same question
• 29:24
  with different sectors. And I think what I would
• 29:26
  encourage is yourself and others is to now have those
• 29:29
  conversations, you have some information and to start
• 29:32
  translating that into what it means.
• 29:34
  And context matters, right? The industry matters, the
• 29:38
  economic drivers that are the changing, the geographic
• 29:41
  environment. The report doesn't translate.
• 29:44
  There's too many ways we could have gone with the
• 29:46
  interpretation. We can have a conversation after
• 29:50
  and ground coffee. But I have my own personal
• 29:53
  opinions and you'll have yours, and maybe we can find some
• 29:55
  interesting things. I saw someone behind, yeah.
• 30:02
  I Duncan, Ross, Russell, Atkins realise projects have a
• 30:06
  reputation of failing and there's some nasty statistics
• 30:09
  out there that we may or may not support around project failure.
• 30:15
  Yet businesses have a real challenge, as we said, about the
• 30:19
  need for transformation, the need to move forward.
• 30:22
  So I'd like to sort of. Delve a little bit deeper into
• 30:25
  how the message you want to give.
• 30:27
  Us as the profession. About how we work together, the
• 30:30
  APM and the profession, in trying to address that, that
• 30:34
  reputation. For me, it's it's putting the
• 30:38
  work upfront. Spends all your energy, all your
• 30:42
  effort, all your brain power in planning what your project's
• 30:45
  going to be. Make sure you can actually
• 30:47
  deliver the BCR. Make sure your schedule is
• 30:49
  robust. Use progressive assurance
• 30:51
  throughout so that you know each single point in time where you
• 30:56
  are and you, you're original plans.
• 30:58
  Don't say, well, I'm almost ready now.
• 31:00
  I'm 50% of the way there. Let's go out there and build it.
• 31:02
  Or let's go out there and deliver it.
• 31:04
  Get it, rock solid. Get everyone in the team to
• 31:06
  understand for the top five risks are it sounds simple.
• 31:10
  You'd be amazed how many project offices you go around and ask
• 31:12
  what are your top five risks and you get 50 different answers.
• 31:16
  How on earth are you going to deliver with that team?
• 31:18
  So really do your planning meticulously.
• 31:21
  I mean London 2012. Everyone asks me how come that
• 31:25
  was so good And I can honestly hand on heart, say myself and my
• 31:29
  team spent seven years planning that transportation.
• 31:32
  That's why it worked. And I just think that psyche is
• 31:35
  so important, you know, plan, plan, plan, then deliver.
• 31:38
  But there is also an issue here, I think with this idea of
• 31:42
  failure. And I'm not going to be
• 31:44
  complacent about failure. We shouldn't be failing.
• 31:47
  But if you look at the professions more broadly, every
• 31:50
  profession fails. So doctors have patients that
• 31:54
  don't survive, lawyers lose lawsuits.
• 31:59
  So I think we have a very, a very punishing, if you like,
• 32:03
  view on our projects failing. Get who is one of my most
• 32:08
  favourite philosophers, said the only the people who do important
• 32:13
  things will make important mistakes.
• 32:16
  When you are involved in something which is very
• 32:18
  important, there is a very big chance that things might not go
• 32:22
  well. So the point is what happens
• 32:24
  with the failure? Do we learn from the failure?
• 32:28
  Do we change our mindset? Do we understand, reflect and
• 32:32
  then work in a completely different way?
• 32:35
  Or do we feel that we are not good, we haven't done our job
• 32:39
  properly and we go to the next project feeling even worse.
• 32:43
  So for me, the failure is not the point.
• 32:46
  The point is what happens after the failure, and there are a lot
• 32:50
  of things that can be done with the failure.
• 32:53
  And then just add to that Doctor Giuliano's work on the other 10
• 32:57
  main reasons of really good research, please, and why
• 33:00
  projects fail. It's really again simple.
• 33:03
  You take those 10 reasons and you make sure you don't do those
• 33:06
  things, you know, the the blueprints out there.
• 33:09
  And we can really build that through our projects and
• 33:11
  programmes and you'll be surprised that they have
• 33:14
  familiar those 10 things are because we've all been there,
• 33:17
  seen it and done it. But honestly, you know, use use
• 33:20
  the research. That's why we're here.
• 33:22
  Today I would just add the optimism that was talked about
• 33:25
  today. I think internally as a
• 33:26
  profession, we are optimistic. But when we talk externally
• 33:30
  about the profession were not so optimistic.
• 33:33
  And some of that's our obsession with lessons learned and things
• 33:36
  like that and and that's fine. But I think we need to talk up
• 33:39
  our profession. I think things like we have you
• 33:41
  know are awards event for example that's about championing
• 33:44
  the things that go well. But actually we're we could be
• 33:47
  better at that because there are lots of things that go well.
• 33:50
  But if you read in the media, it's, you know, one in 100
• 33:53
  stories or something to find one that's really gone well.
• 33:55
  And sometimes that's because who wants to put their head above
• 33:58
  the parapet to say it went really well just in case they
• 34:00
  get shot down. And someone says, oh, it's not
• 34:02
  as not as good as you thought, but we do need to be better at
• 34:05
  that. I mean, what you were saying
• 34:06
  about the other professions is really interesting because I was
• 34:08
  reflecting on that. And some of those professions,
• 34:10
  they really celebrate when they get it, right?
• 34:12
  Yeah. So we need to be better at that.
• 34:14
  I think let's share that optimism externally.
• 34:17
  Thank you everyone. Well, to wrap up the panel
• 34:20
  discussion, I would like to host a final question for anyone who
• 34:24
  would like to answer it. What area should the profession
• 34:28
  prioritise to enhance project management?
• 34:31
  I would say that, but I will take from this report, is that
• 34:35
  number of 2.32 million people because that is the group that
• 34:42
  is going to deliver social transformation that we need in
• 34:46
  our society. And that is the group that the
• 34:48
  profession has a very strong role to play in terms of
• 34:54
  bringing people together and building the synergies.
• 34:56
  Academia has a very strong role to play in terms of preparing
• 35:00
  people with the latest knowledge, with the latest
• 35:03
  skills to take them forward and for them for themselves.
• 35:09
  They have a very significant piece of work to do, the project
• 35:12
  manager on themselves in terms of the self that they bring into
• 35:16
  the project and who they decide that they are going to be in the
• 35:20
  project. I think that those are very,
• 35:22
  very important. And Anthony and I know the atoms
• 35:26
  working on it, but it it is to look more globally because post
• 35:30
  COVID, post Brexit, we're a tiny beautiful island, but we are not
• 35:35
  in a good place. So I think we have to take
• 35:37
  everything we've learned. I I do believe in the UK our
• 35:40
  profession is the best in the world and there's things like
• 35:44
  risk management, value management, even our commercial
• 35:47
  management is top class and we can sell that and and really
• 35:51
  then be known as the foremost project management profession in
• 35:56
  the world. And have those joining already
• 35:58
  with PMI and know we're making those arrangements.
• 36:01
  But really celebrating the fact that we do it really well and we
• 36:06
  can take our 2.32 million and we can have billions of people
• 36:09
  around the world who are part of our profession and each one of
• 36:12
  you can be part of that. I have one thing and I would say
• 36:16
  we're on a journey together and welcome new entrance into our
• 36:20
  profession. Look for them, support them, but
• 36:23
  let's learn together as well. And I think there's a number of
• 36:25
  areas and we can get into specific topics.
• 36:28
  You know, it's a subsequent conversation, but there's some
• 36:30
  emerging things that we we don't have all the answers.
• 36:33
  We're still, we're still discovering, we're still
• 36:35
  investigating, we're still researching.
• 36:37
  It isn't just sort of taken and apply what we already know,
• 36:41
  we're still figuring this stuff out.
• 36:43
  How is artificial intelligence gonna affect organisations and
• 36:46
  what is the role of programme project managers?
• 36:48
  And actually making that happen is a very simple and obvious
• 36:50
  one. But we're on a journey together,
• 36:53
  welcome new people that are coming in and support them.
• 36:55
  And then let's learn together and develop the resilience we
• 36:58
  need to have to succeed and deliver well.
• 37:01
  Thank you. And I'd like to just reflect
• 37:02
  back on something that you said earlier on about how inclusive
• 37:05
  our profession is. Because for me this is one of
• 37:07
  the things that sets it apart from from every other
• 37:09
  profession. We we're living in Times Now
• 37:11
  where actually that divide between the haves and the have
• 37:14
  nots, if you call it that, is getting wider not narrower.
• 37:18
  And I see the profession as a vehicle, as a catalyst for
• 37:21
  social mobility, as one of the things that can help to tackle
• 37:24
  some of the deep rooted problems.
• 37:26
  As Sue says, you know you can finish school at 16 and there is
• 37:30
  a place in this profession for you and you can do remarkably
• 37:33
  well and add huge value in the process and we should be
• 37:36
  championing that much more. So for me that should be a huge
• 37:39
  area of focus. Thanks for listening to this
• 37:46
  episode of the APM Podcast. For a deeper dive into the
• 37:49
  Golden Threads findings, navigate to the research section
• 37:52
  of the APM website thatsapm.org.uk, where you can
• 37:57
  download the full report. You can also read more about the
• 38:00
  research in the upcoming Summer issue, Project Journal and APM
• 38:04
  Member Benefits, which will be landing on your doorsteps in
• 38:06
  June. If you've got any comments,
• 38:08
  feedback or suggestions for us, please get in touch at
• 38:12
  apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. That's it for this episode.
• 38:17
  Thanks for listening.