Latest / UK Column Radio / The Presence – Dr Robin Kelly

Transcript

The Presence – Dr Robin Kelly · UK Column Radio

0:07
Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to another UK column interview. And my name's
0:12
Speaker 1: Debbie Evans and for those of you that don't know me,
0:15
Speaker 1: I'm a retired old school State registered nurse. I was
0:19
Speaker 1: Award sister in my time. And you know, I'm really
0:22
Speaker 1: delighted because in October UK column are going to hit
0:26
Speaker 1: the road and we're on location and we're coming to
0:29
Speaker 1: Bristol and we hope very much to meet many of
0:32
Speaker 1: our members and our audience to talk about what's going on,
0:37
Speaker 1: to find out who's doing what where. But for some
0:41
Speaker 1: of our members, they can't get to us because they're
0:44
Speaker 1: international and we have a very very educated, expert audience
0:50
Speaker 1: and I like nothing more than to bring you some
0:54
Speaker 1: of our experts, some of our members who are doing
0:57
Speaker 1: amazing work in other countries. And I guess that's where
1:02
Speaker 1: tech in a way comes in really valuable, doesn't it,
1:05
Speaker 1: Because have we not got this facility, I wouldn't be
1:09
Speaker 1: able to introduce you to my guest today. And my
1:14
Speaker 1: guest today is Dr Robin Kelly. Now Doctor Robin Kelly
1:19
Speaker 1: is British born but emigrated to New Zealand. Yes, so
1:24
Speaker 1: we're flying all the way to the Southern Hemisphere to
1:27
Speaker 1: New Zealand again. He emigrated in nineteen seventy seven with
1:31
Speaker 1: his wife Trish and he's been practicing ever since. But
1:37
Speaker 1: he's done something a little different because we literally do
1:41
Speaker 1: have a doctor in the house. Because this doctor went
1:46
Speaker 1: off and built his own medical practice and attached it
1:51
Speaker 1: to his home and then flung open the doors and well,
1:56
Speaker 1: this is the GP practice where patients are called guests,
2:00
Speaker 1: guests and they have time to talk, to be listened to,
2:05
Speaker 1: and to be comforted and supported. And I'm really delighted
2:09
Speaker 1: to be able to welcome Dr Robin Kelly because you
2:13
Speaker 1: are a doctor with a difference, and just to give
2:15
Speaker 1: a little bit of background, and I'm going to ask
2:17
Speaker 1: you to do an introduction of course, Robin when I
2:20
Speaker 1: bring you on screen. But I just want to say
2:23
Speaker 1: for our audience this is where East meets West and
2:27
Speaker 1: you'll find out in a minute because this is no
2:30
Speaker 1: ordinary doctor, Dr Robin Kelly, Welcome to UK column. Thank
2:34
Speaker 1: you so much for agreeing to join us all the
2:37
Speaker 1: way from New Zealand, and thank you so much for
2:40
Speaker 1: your support as well.
2:42
Speaker 2: Ollo Thank you, Debbie. I'm a great fan of a
2:45
Speaker 2: UK column. It's sustained me specifically after the the last
2:50
Speaker 2: four years, during the last four years, so I'm really
2:54
Speaker 2: chuffed and honored. Thank you.
2:56
Speaker 1: And you know what, that's such a good point because
3:00
Speaker 1: many people say UK column keeps us sane. It's a
3:04
Speaker 1: sanctuary to come to a sanctuary of sanity, and we
3:08
Speaker 1: need you to know that our audience are also our
3:11
Speaker 1: sanctuary of sanity. We keep each other going and so
3:14
Speaker 1: we're incredibly grateful to you. But Robin, you trained as
3:17
Speaker 1: a doctor, you were born in the UK, you trained
3:21
Speaker 1: as a doctor, your father was a GP. Tell us
3:25
Speaker 1: how about you, Well, tell us a bit about where
3:27
Speaker 1: you trained, your background and how you ended up all
3:31
Speaker 1: the way in the Southern hemisphere in New Zealand.
3:34
Speaker 2: Yes, I trained at Middlesex Hospital in central London, which
3:39
Speaker 2: has now been knocked down and was a block of
3:42
Speaker 2: flats to be built. I think still maybe a hole
3:45
Speaker 2: in the ground. And I qualified in nineteen seventy four,
3:50
Speaker 2: so I've been qualified for fifty years. I did my
3:55
Speaker 2: residencies in and around London for the next three years.
4:03
Speaker 2: Then I wanted to go further afield. I'd done pediatrics
4:08
Speaker 2: and I actually had become a radiotherapy registrar in London,
4:15
Speaker 2: but I came over to New Zealand, and actually my
4:17
Speaker 2: love was in general practice. And although my practice is
4:21
Speaker 2: attached to the right side of my home, I do
4:24
Speaker 2: realize that's what my father's practice was. We actually had
4:27
Speaker 2: a practice at home, so I knew, and it's pretty
4:31
Speaker 2: well in the same place. So I went all the
4:33
Speaker 2: way around the world to create a practice that probably
4:37
Speaker 2: hopefully matched my father's practice. And my father was kind
4:41
Speaker 2: and humorous and irish and had a certain love for
4:46
Speaker 2: his patients, but told me that the actual system then,
4:50
Speaker 2: even at the end of the seventies, was difficult in
4:54
Speaker 2: that it was very pressured. The health service was pressured.
5:00
Speaker 2: Two or three more years here in New Zealand, it
5:02
Speaker 2: came over to New Zealand, I was offered a registrar
5:05
Speaker 2: ship in pediatric oncology and pediatric cancer. But actually when
5:11
Speaker 2: I came here, I discovered a mode of general practice
5:15
Speaker 2: that I would have dreamt about. In other words, we
5:18
Speaker 2: were allowed a whole fifteen minutes to see people. And
5:24
Speaker 2: so I went into general practice here on the north
5:26
Speaker 2: shore of Auckland in nineteen eighty one, and one of
5:31
Speaker 2: the partners that I was working with had been to
5:33
Speaker 2: China and was practicing acupuncture. Very Sadly, after three months
5:38
Speaker 2: he died suddenly from a melanoma, metastatic melanoma. I was
5:43
Speaker 2: already impressed. I loved the guy. He was only forty two.
5:46
Speaker 2: But I took over the patients and said, well, I
5:49
Speaker 2: want to learn this. I was really intrigued. So I
5:52
Speaker 2: started to incorporate acupuncture alongside my general practice, which I
5:57
Speaker 2: just joined. You know what, was I thirty in those days?
6:02
Speaker 2: And I discovered I suppose so much more about how
6:08
Speaker 2: to communicate with the people coming to see me, to listen,
6:13
Speaker 2: to touch, and to achieve results, which actually I wasn't
6:18
Speaker 2: prepared for. I was some people come in with saw
6:22
Speaker 2: nets and I was doing very simple acupuncture on sal
6:25
Speaker 2: nets and saw backs, and they come back to me
6:28
Speaker 2: and say, look, Robin. The next night, that night I
6:31
Speaker 2: had the best night's sleep, or or for instance, my
6:36
Speaker 2: period which was usually very heavy, was a lot lighter.
6:39
Speaker 2: So I became very interested, and I started to study
6:44
Speaker 2: acupuncture as the Chinese had studied acupunchu, and I went
6:48
Speaker 2: over for ten years. I looked at this amazing paradigm
6:54
Speaker 2: which has turned out to be by physics. Actually the
6:58
Speaker 2: physics of the body, not just the chemistry of body.
7:01
Speaker 2: And then after ten years, I couldn't fit in this
7:05
Speaker 2: degree of connection in a quarter of an hour. So
7:09
Speaker 2: we decided in nineteen ninety one with my wife to
7:12
Speaker 2: go into practice, to have a special style of practice
7:16
Speaker 2: where we were combining. But I thought that was the
7:18
Speaker 2: best of Western medicine with what I understood was the
7:21
Speaker 2: best of Eastern medicine, which actually really meant spending more
7:25
Speaker 2: time with people and getting to the roots of their
7:29
Speaker 2: problems and linking their emotional health, their philosophies of life,
7:35
Speaker 2: their challenges of life with their ill health, particularly if
7:40
Speaker 2: they had chronic conditions. So that is really my journey
7:46
Speaker 2: and in that nutshell, And that's.
7:48
Speaker 1: Not where it stops, is it? Because I mean, I
7:50
Speaker 1: want to come into what happens to your guests when
7:54
Speaker 1: they come to your practice, because they get cups of tea,
7:57
Speaker 1: they get hugs, they get welcome. But that's not where
8:02
Speaker 1: your talents stop, is it? Because it also goes into
8:05
Speaker 1: the creativity. You know, you've made albums, you're a musician,
8:11
Speaker 1: you're a songwriter. I mean, tell us about how important
8:15
Speaker 1: you feel that creativity is to well being as well.
8:18
Speaker 2: I think it's it's hugely important. And I it was
8:24
Speaker 2: really in my forties that I discovered through actually with
8:29
Speaker 2: links to what I was studying, but actually, when I
8:32
Speaker 2: started to meditate do chigong to actually get a deeper
8:38
Speaker 2: feel on what I thought was the essence of living,
8:41
Speaker 2: that it seemed to spark off creativity in me or
8:45
Speaker 2: allowed me to discover my creative self. So and so
8:52
Speaker 2: there was a portion in the middle nineties that I
8:55
Speaker 2: started to write songs. I had always loved music, but
8:59
Speaker 2: I hadn't created my own music, and these songs just
9:02
Speaker 2: came to me, They flowed through me, and that made
9:05
Speaker 2: me understand someone. But when you're at peace and when
9:09
Speaker 2: your mind is rested, it's more likely that you're going
9:14
Speaker 2: to be receptive to creativity. I don't feel that creativity
9:19
Speaker 2: is just based on our past. I believe that something
9:22
Speaker 2: that flows through us, and it also flows through us
9:26
Speaker 2: away from time pressure. So also around that time, I
9:32
Speaker 2: explored how creativity was so important for people's healing. And
9:38
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be songwriting or playing the saxophone
9:43
Speaker 2: or painting. It can be a joy of your home,
9:48
Speaker 2: It can be a joy of your creating a garden.
9:51
Speaker 2: It can be a joy of the creation of your children.
9:56
Speaker 2: And usually it's about joy basically, and it's about pressure
10:01
Speaker 2: outside time. So so much of our problems are time related.
10:07
Speaker 2: And one of the issues I've seen since I've done
10:09
Speaker 2: this is that the doctors who were still locked into
10:13
Speaker 2: that time pressure, particularly in general practice of trying to
10:16
Speaker 2: do an assessment in ten minutes, although it's quarter of
10:21
Speaker 2: an hour here now for the standard doctors, it's really
10:25
Speaker 2: only six to seven minutes. All you can do at
10:28
Speaker 2: that time is actually react the Hegelian dialectic of reaction
10:36
Speaker 2: and then solution. You maybe can't reflect, and you can't
10:40
Speaker 2: be with somebody in that magical time where you're sitting
10:43
Speaker 2: down listening with an open heart, and ideas come through you,
10:48
Speaker 2: not just come through you, but actually come through two
10:51
Speaker 2: people that are meeting in harmony. And I have to
10:55
Speaker 2: say that the most important message I can pass on
10:58
Speaker 2: I think it's I'm not expecting everybody to study Chinese
11:02
Speaker 2: medicine or acupuncture, but actually just being present with people
11:07
Speaker 2: allows a flow of information that is probably the most
11:12
Speaker 2: valuable thing as a doctor we can receive. So that's
11:18
Speaker 2: what happens, and I'm interested when people come on who
11:22
Speaker 2: they are their philosophy. My rooms are full of artwork,
11:28
Speaker 2: and if somebody just mentions, well I've got some art,
11:33
Speaker 2: you may not be interested. I said, no, I want
11:35
Speaker 2: to see that next time, and we have an opening
11:38
Speaker 2: into a deeper aspect of who they are. And anyway,
11:43
Speaker 2: that's really what's sustained me and makes me passionate about
11:49
Speaker 2: the job. And that's something that I'm seeing in general,
11:54
Speaker 2: a lack of passion in medicine for what happened over
12:00
Speaker 2: the last probably thirty years or so.
12:02
Speaker 1: Robin, I feel exactly the same because many of our
12:07
Speaker 1: regular audience will know. And as I said earlier, I'm
12:10
Speaker 1: a trained nurse and I trained in a in the
12:12
Speaker 1: same time as you. You were at the Middlesex in
12:16
Speaker 1: the mid seventies and I was at the Royal Free
12:19
Speaker 1: in the mid seventies. And medicine and the NHS to
12:24
Speaker 1: me have changed beyond all recognition. And we could talk
12:29
Speaker 1: about our days in the NHS, and perhaps we should,
12:32
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps we should at some point talk about
12:36
Speaker 1: what we were trained in and how we were trained,
12:40
Speaker 1: because it's very it's a million miles away from now,
12:43
Speaker 1: but you know, you're talking about consultation times there of
12:47
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, and you're UK trained, so you know what
12:52
Speaker 1: the system's like here at the moment. In the UK,
12:55
Speaker 1: you're lucky to get an appointment with a GP. You're
12:59
Speaker 1: more like to get an appointment with a nurse practitioner
13:03
Speaker 1: or perhaps something that has been paraphrased at a nocta,
13:08
Speaker 1: which is a physician which hasn't gone through a full
13:13
Speaker 1: medical training, has had a shortened training so is not
13:16
Speaker 1: a qualified GP. And we live in this ever busy
13:21
Speaker 1: world where it's frantic and everybody's used to ordering something
13:26
Speaker 1: and getting it the next day. Everybody's on their devices,
13:30
Speaker 1: and I know that you've got a particular interest in
13:33
Speaker 1: electromagnetic frequencies in the busy lives that people have and
13:39
Speaker 1: the importance for them to stop and take time out
13:44
Speaker 1: from this super highway of smart devices that we seem
13:49
Speaker 1: to be on. What are your views when it comes
13:53
Speaker 1: to I mean, people must come to you and they're stressed,
13:56
Speaker 1: they're upset, you know, maybe they're communicating with people all
14:00
Speaker 1: day long on a computer on a screen. What's your
14:04
Speaker 1: advice for them and what are your concerns moving on
14:08
Speaker 1: when it comes to all of what's going on at
14:11
Speaker 1: the moment with EMF.
14:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, firstly, I have to act in a
14:17
Speaker 2: way that I'm not stressed, and I haven't got a
14:19
Speaker 2: device in my hand, and I haven't got a computer
14:22
Speaker 2: in front of me. It was interesting forty years ago
14:25
Speaker 2: we was told and probably quite rightly then instead of
14:28
Speaker 2: having the patient in front of us behind a desk,
14:31
Speaker 2: and this would mean that we were sort dominating them,
14:34
Speaker 2: we'd have the maps beside us. I still do that
14:37
Speaker 2: because now the doctor has the computer in front of them.
14:40
Speaker 2: Who is dominating effects, you know, and basically there's a
14:44
Speaker 2: third party, which is the patient. So that's the first
14:47
Speaker 2: thing I think. How we act, our presence must be unhurried,
14:51
Speaker 2: and hence, you know, we have to lengthen our consultation time.
14:55
Speaker 2: So my consultation times are a minimum of half an hour,
14:58
Speaker 2: and a new patient has one to two hours. And
15:01
Speaker 2: often they have to leave the hair done and say,
15:04
Speaker 2: look sorry, i've rollerie, I've got to leave, but other
15:06
Speaker 2: things to do, and I'm so intrigued by them, I said, okay,
15:10
Speaker 2: I'll catch that. I'll catch up with you at some
15:12
Speaker 2: other time. Yeah, so I this is exactly right that
15:18
Speaker 2: the problems that we're seeing are time pressure problems. The
15:23
Speaker 2: problems we're seeing are there's this term now called disautonomia,
15:28
Speaker 2: which means that the autonomic nervous system is out of filter,
15:33
Speaker 2: that it's too much in fight or flight, it's too rush,
15:36
Speaker 2: it's too it's actually designed for one hundred meter dash
15:43
Speaker 2: rather than a marathon, which is what life is. One
15:48
Speaker 2: of the things I realized when I did acupuncture that
15:50
Speaker 2: I was putting little ends in and I I was
15:53
Speaker 2: actually they were like antennae that we're going to the
15:56
Speaker 2: outside world, and the outside world loves low frequencies human resonances.
16:01
Speaker 2: This is we're actually designed for low frequency frequencies low
16:07
Speaker 2: frequency and by actually doing acupuncture, my aim and still
16:15
Speaker 2: is is to create a sense of peace. And sometimes
16:19
Speaker 2: for them lying down for twenty minutes or half an hour,
16:24
Speaker 2: something clicks in them and say, well, this is interesting.
16:26
Speaker 2: You mean my body can do this. I said, yes,
16:28
Speaker 2: I'm not adding any anything extra to the body. I'm
16:32
Speaker 2: just allowing you to connect with natural frequencies of human resonances.
16:41
Speaker 2: And actually that led to my concerns about the frequencies
16:46
Speaker 2: that are around us now that are being created, which
16:48
Speaker 2: are the other end of the spectrum. The millimeter waves
16:51
Speaker 2: and other things, because I am concerned that this isn't
16:55
Speaker 2: natural for our body. Our body is suited for these
16:58
Speaker 2: frequencies of sevent to hurtz or whatever, the same things
17:01
Speaker 2: that allow flowers to grow and mice to be happy.
17:06
Speaker 2: So yeah, so that so then I developed an interest
17:11
Speaker 2: and started to research about five or six years ago
17:15
Speaker 2: the effects of electromagnetic frequencies, the ones that have been
17:19
Speaker 2: produced artificially, the effect on the body, because I had
17:25
Speaker 2: got a feeling over many years on how sensitive bodies are. Basically,
17:32
Speaker 2: huge changes can happen. The most gentle subtle interventions with
17:37
Speaker 2: equipucture has to be very subtle. Even more so, even
17:41
Speaker 2: when you touch somebody, they may feel their meridians light
17:44
Speaker 2: up if they're very sensitive. So I saw these huge
17:47
Speaker 2: range of sensitivities and also realized those who are very
17:51
Speaker 2: sensitive absorb a lot of They can absorb positive things,
17:55
Speaker 2: but they can absorb a lot of negative things. Their
17:57
Speaker 2: bodies have come overloaded and for tea and actually that
18:03
Speaker 2: could be an issue with chronic fatigue syndrome. So yeah,
18:07
Speaker 2: it all added up to me being concerned about the
18:09
Speaker 2: electrosmog that's around, but also to allow people to achieve
18:15
Speaker 2: a sense of peace by themselves. So you know, we
18:19
Speaker 2: can may introduce them with something like a puncture into
18:22
Speaker 2: breathing techniques, but hopefully then they would say, well, that's great, Robin,
18:27
Speaker 2: but I don't want to keep coming back here. I'd
18:29
Speaker 2: rather you let me know how I can do this myself.
18:33
Speaker 2: Then we can go into creative acts, because once you're
18:36
Speaker 2: in a creative zone, then you'll lose sense of time.
18:41
Speaker 2: And that's our natural state. And when people have, if
18:46
Speaker 2: they've had acupuncture or maybe gone through some meditative technique,
18:53
Speaker 2: they often feel very much a peace of the world,
18:55
Speaker 2: but at one with the world. A sense of health
18:58
Speaker 2: that I would say is your health. My concern is
19:03
Speaker 2: that we have a health system that really hasn't divined
19:08
Speaker 2: defined what true health is. It seems to be a
19:12
Speaker 2: true health is either not an absence of disease, but
19:16
Speaker 2: a control disease, rather than this next level of health
19:20
Speaker 2: which we should be aiming for.
19:22
Speaker 1: I'm do you know what, Robin, I have to say
19:25
Speaker 1: that just listening to you, I get this sense of
19:30
Speaker 1: calm just hearing your voice. I find your voice very
19:33
Speaker 1: calming and relaxing to listen to and I've been making
19:39
Speaker 1: tons of notes because you're bringing up so many, so
19:43
Speaker 1: many different things. But of course, you know, pharmaceutical companies
19:48
Speaker 1: they need us to be sick, right, I mean, they
19:51
Speaker 1: can't operate if we're all healthy, so they operate with
19:56
Speaker 1: sick people. And you say a little while ago, and
20:01
Speaker 1: I picked up on it because I'm an old school nurse,
20:04
Speaker 1: and you said touch, and you said how important touches
20:09
Speaker 1: and how where we should be of the effects that
20:13
Speaker 1: touching somebody can have. And I find that very interesting
20:17
Speaker 1: because in our day, we would touch patients all the time,
20:22
Speaker 1: to take their pulse, to take their blood pressure, to
20:26
Speaker 1: hold their hands, to talk to them. So we're going
20:31
Speaker 1: full circle back to how we were trained in a
20:34
Speaker 1: much more holistic way. But equally, you see patients, excuse me,
20:42
Speaker 1: you see patients that do need traditional Western medicine as
20:48
Speaker 1: well as a healing, more holistic, more holistic way like
20:54
Speaker 1: acupuncture or creativity. So you've seen vaccine injured patients coming
20:59
Speaker 1: into your surgery as well patients with serious medical conditions.
21:05
Speaker 1: What kinds of help can you give them? And using
21:09
Speaker 1: the combination of your Eastern medicine as well, how does
21:13
Speaker 1: that differentiate and what are you doing differently, because I
21:17
Speaker 1: know you are doing things slightly differently from other people.
21:21
Speaker 1: What are you doing that's helping the vaccine injured, for example?
21:25
Speaker 2: I think the first thing, And just to reiterate what
21:28
Speaker 2: I'm saying, I'm listening deeply. I'm listening to this story
21:32
Speaker 2: and I'm believing their story, which I think is probably
21:36
Speaker 2: the most powerful thing I can do. I also have
21:40
Speaker 2: noticed that trauma is cumulative, and over many years, I've
21:47
Speaker 2: identified that many of the people seeking my help have
21:50
Speaker 2: deep trauma that have even started in childhood. And I'm
21:54
Speaker 2: interested in transgenerational trauma as well. And what's happened over
21:59
Speaker 2: the last four or five years has added on to
22:02
Speaker 2: that trauma, not just from what's being injected, but obviously
22:06
Speaker 2: the way it's been injected. It's been injected abusively, if
22:11
Speaker 2: you like. So those people who have been abused earlier
22:15
Speaker 2: on in their lives, once they get another abuse, that
22:20
Speaker 2: can spark off lots of issues. So look at it holistically.
22:24
Speaker 2: I'm not just looking at the toxicity, and I assure
22:27
Speaker 2: you I am aware of the toxicity. I'm actually looking
22:31
Speaker 2: at the traumas that have preceded this and so and
22:37
Speaker 2: what has happened is that when somebody is traumatized in
22:43
Speaker 2: their youth, they lose confidence in authority figures, particularly if
22:49
Speaker 2: their parents or teachers, if they've been abused or even
22:52
Speaker 2: sort of ignored, and this has been exacerbated in the
22:56
Speaker 2: last four years now. I probably have tried to be
23:00
Speaker 2: the antidote to that as by listening to them, and
23:04
Speaker 2: they're also providing solutions. And some of the solutions have
23:11
Speaker 2: come in, you know what, many of the good doctors
23:15
Speaker 2: have found out things like the role of iba, mectin
23:19
Speaker 2: and other nutraceuticals and other things, and I certainly will
23:24
Speaker 2: have approached that, but I'll also look at their trauma.
23:29
Speaker 2: And there are certain ways energetic in energetic medicine to
23:34
Speaker 2: approach people who have been deeply traumed. It has to
23:40
Speaker 2: be done in with listening and compassion. You know. I
23:45
Speaker 2: work here with my wife and we try as much
23:49
Speaker 2: as anything to show that we have a loving relationship.
23:53
Speaker 2: We have a little dog who comes in a Greek people,
23:56
Speaker 2: and so I think we have to see the depths
24:00
Speaker 2: of trauma that people have been, how they've been injured,
24:06
Speaker 2: and if we're really going to the debts, that's that's
24:08
Speaker 2: that's what I try to do also those who have
24:12
Speaker 2: been I have a lot of people who are musicians
24:16
Speaker 2: and artists, and an artist and a musician is also
24:20
Speaker 2: very sensitive. Basically, ideas flow through them. They're not thick skin.
24:27
Speaker 2: They love some support, some applause, and they are particularly
24:31
Speaker 2: they have been particularly vulnerable to the events of the
24:34
Speaker 2: last four years.
24:36
Speaker 1: Uh.
24:37
Speaker 2: And I've been using certain approaches that have been used
24:42
Speaker 2: on those military US military with post traumatic threats, and
24:51
Speaker 2: they include certain types of very gentle acupuncture, including ear acupuncture,
24:58
Speaker 2: which is a step that I took and made me
25:03
Speaker 2: write a couple of books because I was so impressed
25:05
Speaker 2: by this, that are used on those who have been
25:11
Speaker 2: deeply traumatized in the military. But what I've noticed, there's
25:14
Speaker 2: a complex post traumatic stress in many of us. Most
25:18
Speaker 2: of us have a degree of complex post traumatic stress.
25:22
Speaker 2: A huge number most doctors have a lot of complex
25:24
Speaker 2: post traumatic stress which they need to address, of which
25:28
Speaker 2: I feel is being hidden, and that really derived from
25:35
Speaker 2: how they've been treated and overruled on a deep soul level.
25:42
Speaker 2: I don't know if that then makes sense, but that's
25:44
Speaker 2: how I see how complex the last three or four
25:49
Speaker 2: years have been.
25:50
Speaker 1: As you're saying that I've got this light bulb going
25:54
Speaker 1: on in my head, Robin, because I hadn't actually considered
25:59
Speaker 1: the effect or we haven't actually talked to anybody about
26:03
Speaker 1: the effects of all that we've gone through on doctors.
26:09
Speaker 1: And we're very quick to critique. And yes, we've got
26:13
Speaker 1: some amazing doctors who are standing up and are speaking out,
26:17
Speaker 1: but equally, we've got an awful lot of doctors that
26:21
Speaker 1: are still in the system and they're still doing I
26:25
Speaker 1: guess what they're told to do, and I hadn't actually
26:30
Speaker 1: considered what effects that was having on them. Have you
26:35
Speaker 1: spoken to any colleagues who are very uncomfortable with the
26:40
Speaker 1: way of travel? I mean we all saw Jacinda Atturn
26:43
Speaker 1: during lock up. I mean all attention was on New
26:46
Speaker 1: Zealand during the pandemic or plandemic, so we were watching
26:53
Speaker 1: New Zealand very carefully. Were you seeing trauma increased in
26:59
Speaker 1: your colleague not just your patients, but in people that
27:02
Speaker 1: you were working with Because you have stayed very much,
27:08
Speaker 1: you've kept you really walked a fine line, haven't you,
27:11
Speaker 1: Because you've kept on the side of the narrative in
27:14
Speaker 1: a certain way, which has enabled you to carry on practicing,
27:18
Speaker 1: but to carry on practicing in your more holistic way.
27:22
Speaker 1: But what effects are you seeing in the trade, if
27:26
Speaker 1: you like, in other doctors.
27:29
Speaker 2: I think what I was talking about doctors, I feel
27:31
Speaker 2: that trauma has come often from the training and the past,
27:35
Speaker 2: what they've been through a sort of boot camp, and
27:38
Speaker 2: then over the last thirty years they've been controlled by
27:41
Speaker 2: so called guidelines and computer algorithms, and I see it
27:48
Speaker 2: actually as they've become dispirited and they turned into just
27:52
Speaker 2: sort of generally doing a job rather than following a
27:56
Speaker 2: deep vocation. So I think they harmed that they have experienced.
28:02
Speaker 2: They may not have seen at the time, they're certainly
28:05
Speaker 2: seeing now. So you see it in their actions. You
28:07
Speaker 2: see that doctors of my age are pulling out and
28:10
Speaker 2: retiring and sadly selling their practices to commercial enterprises who
28:16
Speaker 2: are again demanding more and more with consultations and arms
28:21
Speaker 2: on seat lead to more prescribing. So I'm seeing that.
28:25
Speaker 2: I'm seeing also the colleagues who you know, really stood
28:28
Speaker 2: up against what's happening from a deep philosophical point of
28:32
Speaker 2: view over the last four years, from the hippocritic oath,
28:36
Speaker 2: they've they've felt very deeply once they took that oath
28:39
Speaker 2: that that was the most important thing in their lives,
28:42
Speaker 2: so obviously as well as their family lives, and also
28:44
Speaker 2: the Nuremberg Code, and so I saw those were deeply affected,
28:48
Speaker 2: and of course they have left and joined our n
28:52
Speaker 2: z DSOs. There was a big group who are actually
28:55
Speaker 2: very active, but a lot of them have lost their
28:58
Speaker 2: lost their jobs, and they actually are quite grateful for
29:02
Speaker 2: me to be sort of on site to see a
29:05
Speaker 2: lot of their people. I stopped doing podcasts or because
29:11
Speaker 2: we were told that we shouldn't speak publicly, and I'm saying, okay,
29:15
Speaker 2: if I'm going to carry on with my very special
29:17
Speaker 2: pub practice, I can see people privately and we can
29:21
Speaker 2: talk at length within these four walls because everything is confidential.
29:27
Speaker 2: But I have huge respect for those who put their
29:29
Speaker 2: practices on the line. But of course I've had to
29:32
Speaker 2: see people in the state, and I've received a lot
29:36
Speaker 2: of patients who have lost total confidence in the medical profession.
29:41
Speaker 2: And some of them have been well my patients in
29:44
Speaker 2: the eighties before I sort of went into this more
29:46
Speaker 2: niche practice. So I've seen them that who were children
29:49
Speaker 2: then who are sort of advanced middle aged now and
29:52
Speaker 2: some of them haven't been on the same journey as me.
29:55
Speaker 2: They've been vaccinated and others, but they've lost confidence and
29:59
Speaker 2: they were really wanting to talk. So yeah, as far
30:04
Speaker 2: as doctors, I think what we're seeing is a collapse
30:11
Speaker 2: of the medical system that we once knew and which
30:17
Speaker 2: is very sad. And I think many doctors aren't owning
30:22
Speaker 2: up to how empty they feel and are deciding just
30:26
Speaker 2: to do session work. They're certainly not taking on practices.
30:30
Speaker 2: They're coming in principles in practice. And I'm not saying
30:34
Speaker 2: thirty or forty years ago. It's really hard work, you know,
30:36
Speaker 2: it's hard work on our families, and it was a
30:39
Speaker 2: good move that people had more time. But I think
30:42
Speaker 2: we're seeing the end of the sort of practice that
30:45
Speaker 2: sustains me. Unless I try and do something like this
30:50
Speaker 2: to try and encourage people to do what I do,
30:54
Speaker 2: not exactly how I do it, but to follow their passions.
30:59
Speaker 2: I'm sure it doesn't pay that well, but it's sustainable
31:03
Speaker 2: and that's probably more important.
31:05
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that, actually, Robin,
31:07
Speaker 1: because for us, as you know, you're born in the UK,
31:11
Speaker 1: so you know the system here, but we just register
31:14
Speaker 1: with the GP. We're not paying any money. Although at
31:18
Speaker 1: the moment with our two tier system that we seem
31:22
Speaker 1: to be having in the UK, we seem to be
31:24
Speaker 1: heading for a two tier society, two tier health system.
31:27
Speaker 1: But what is the system in New Zealand Because you
31:31
Speaker 1: don't have the NHS in New Zealand. Although the NHS
31:35
Speaker 1: has gone international, but technically you don't have the NHS
31:38
Speaker 1: in New Zealand. So for somebody moving to New Zealand,
31:42
Speaker 1: for example, what could they expect because you're an independent GP,
31:48
Speaker 1: as we would call in the UK a private GP,
31:52
Speaker 1: But where are the other gps? How does that figure
31:56
Speaker 1: into New Zealand's health system?
31:58
Speaker 2: Well, when I was in practice in the eighties, it
32:02
Speaker 2: was all owned owned by the doctors, and we had
32:06
Speaker 2: a certain amount of freedom. But at the same instance
32:09
Speaker 2: where we were very I suppose we have we had
32:13
Speaker 2: a great connection with patients. We had to you know,
32:17
Speaker 2: they could contact us and we never left people more
32:20
Speaker 2: than a day or two. What happened twenty five years
32:23
Speaker 2: ago is they brought in this capitation system as the NHS,
32:29
Speaker 2: but it was actually not the same. Is that patients
32:33
Speaker 2: still had to pay. Now we have a capitation system
32:36
Speaker 2: where you sign up with a doctor. Don't sign up
32:39
Speaker 2: with me. I've never joined this system. And you still,
32:43
Speaker 2: when you're seeing them, have to pay them fifty dollars,
32:47
Speaker 2: and if there are some people with subsidies that may
32:49
Speaker 2: have paid twenty dollars. So you've got this this odd
32:54
Speaker 2: system which is both private and then dictated to buy caputation.
33:00
Speaker 2: So the advantage for the doctors was that this was great.
33:03
Speaker 2: They thought at the beginning of their year they would
33:06
Speaker 2: be given a certain amount of money for each registered patient,
33:10
Speaker 2: so they could collect to three hundred thousand dollars early
33:15
Speaker 2: in the year, which allowed them to pace their themselves
33:18
Speaker 2: and take holidays and do other things. And they thought
33:22
Speaker 2: it was great. But of course the downside is that
33:24
Speaker 2: they became community doctors, dictated to by protocols. They had
33:30
Speaker 2: to achieve vaccination rates, they had to they had to
33:36
Speaker 2: cut the smoking in their practices. They had to actually
33:41
Speaker 2: follow national guidelines, so their focus became less on the
33:49
Speaker 2: person at the time into sustaining a practice according to
33:56
Speaker 2: government guidelines. Included in this was no superannuation or pension,
34:03
Speaker 2: and initially, dislike with the energies, the payments were quite good,
34:08
Speaker 2: but of course they've been eroded by inflation, so they've
34:12
Speaker 2: become an unhappy lot because of that. So actually I
34:18
Speaker 2: think we got the worst of both worlds. We went
34:21
Speaker 2: into that sort of national health service without the benefits,
34:27
Speaker 2: and I kept away from that because they didn't allow
34:31
Speaker 2: me to have a practice where I could spend half
34:35
Speaker 2: an hour with each person. It didn't they just wouldn't
34:39
Speaker 2: fund that practice. And the only way I've been able
34:42
Speaker 2: to do it is to work for my home with
34:45
Speaker 2: my wife and keep her overheads down and sort of
34:50
Speaker 2: enjoy what I'm doing. It's again and it ticks over.
34:55
Speaker 2: But what we've seen in the last five years is
34:58
Speaker 2: all mum and dad business over here, and I think
35:01
Speaker 2: problem in the UK have been under huge streps. They've
35:04
Speaker 2: pretty well disappeared into franchise operations and that's what's happened
35:09
Speaker 2: to general practice now. The doctors of my age have
35:11
Speaker 2: sold their practices and left sold them to corporate franchises
35:16
Speaker 2: who also are workers. You've got the corporate franchise who
35:20
Speaker 2: insists on bums on seats or and following the protocols
35:27
Speaker 2: and the government imperatives, and that's how they trap them
35:31
Speaker 2: in the processes of the last for four years, and
35:37
Speaker 2: they made some money. I mean, if I was doing
35:40
Speaker 2: a locum and I was doing PCR tests, I didn't
35:43
Speaker 2: stay very long doing those. But you know, you'd be
35:46
Speaker 2: getting quite a bit of money for doing a PCR test,
35:50
Speaker 2: something like one hundred dollars, and if you went into
35:52
Speaker 2: a rest home you get two hundred and fifty dollars
35:55
Speaker 2: for every person you were doing a PCR test on.
35:58
Speaker 2: So there was buying out of the profession. And at
36:03
Speaker 2: that stage, of course they had their clothes, they were
36:05
Speaker 2: doing phone consultations and they were doing all this, so
36:10
Speaker 2: financially it sustained the practice, their practices. But you know,
36:18
Speaker 2: it's a bit of a Faustian pact, it really is.
36:22
Speaker 1: And you know, all of us, I think, I don't
36:26
Speaker 1: think anybody has not been We've all been affected over
36:29
Speaker 1: the last four years, and we've all been anxious, whether
36:33
Speaker 1: it be anxiety over going to a doctor, anxiety over
36:40
Speaker 1: in the UK accessing the NHS, and then for other people,
36:44
Speaker 1: the fear that they've been under because they've believed in
36:50
Speaker 1: the whole COVID narrative and they've been frightened and some
36:53
Speaker 1: still are sadly, and the whole we haven't we haven't finished.
36:58
Speaker 1: Have we We were now hearing new of COVID variants
37:02
Speaker 1: and there's more coming down the line. So there are
37:05
Speaker 1: still people out there that are really really frightened. Take
37:10
Speaker 1: us through, Robin. Your appointment, so somebody phones you up
37:15
Speaker 1: and books and appointment and they come along and they
37:18
Speaker 1: see you. What can they expect because it's not what
37:24
Speaker 1: you I think it's what we'd all like to expect
37:26
Speaker 1: in a GP surgery quite honestly, but sadly it's lacking
37:31
Speaker 1: your Your surgery is different. So you've got a meet
37:34
Speaker 1: and greet with your dog. Is this Alphie?
37:38
Speaker 2: Yeah? Alfhae is not always there, depends, but usually gets
37:42
Speaker 2: fairly excited. And the you know, children just love Alfie
37:46
Speaker 2: and I would say Alfie is about may basically probably
37:51
Speaker 2: does as healing as anyone else. Yeah, we go, we're friendly,
37:56
Speaker 2: we make them welcome. If I try not to keep
38:02
Speaker 2: people waiting, but if there's a ten minute wait, they're
38:04
Speaker 2: offered a cup of tea if they want, you know,
38:07
Speaker 2: and they come in and often it's like this, it's
38:10
Speaker 2: conducting an interview. Just what you're doing now, Debbie. I
38:15
Speaker 2: want to get to know them and opening up. I
38:18
Speaker 2: want to know who they are and their passions. Obviously
38:24
Speaker 2: early on, if there's somebody coming from I also ask
38:27
Speaker 2: what is it that you want from this? What is
38:30
Speaker 2: it do you want from this consultation if I haven't
38:33
Speaker 2: seen them before, but generally for your health. So I
38:36
Speaker 2: say that in so many cases the person comes in
38:40
Speaker 2: and has a different agenda from the doctor and there's
38:42
Speaker 2: a clash. So I want to so I jokingly say,
38:46
Speaker 2: give me some awarders. What would you like is to cover?
38:49
Speaker 2: So when I make a note of that, I don't
38:51
Speaker 2: have a computer in my room, I just old fashion
38:53
Speaker 2: note writing down. I said, well, we'll make sure by
38:56
Speaker 2: the end of this that we've addressed that, and I
38:59
Speaker 2: might have some siftium ideas of how to approach it
39:02
Speaker 2: that you have will address that. Then I just want
39:04
Speaker 2: to get to know them. I have. If they're waiting
39:09
Speaker 2: in a room, I've got a library out here, and
39:11
Speaker 2: the library and often they pick up a book, and
39:15
Speaker 2: that's often an opening because they picked up a book,
39:18
Speaker 2: so maybe something they're passionate about the whole range of
39:21
Speaker 2: stuff just medical or there's you know, just books on creativity,
39:26
Speaker 2: and you know, we've got magazines and other things. So
39:29
Speaker 2: that I think that's it. I just want to first
39:32
Speaker 2: of know what they are. What we've got in medicine
39:35
Speaker 2: now in our software programs is a list of what
39:43
Speaker 2: they call classification of your problems and medications. So everything
39:48
Speaker 2: has done in a linear way, and I wanted to
39:54
Speaker 2: start of what their philosophy is and also what their
39:58
Speaker 2: passions are. That's not too and if somebody comes in
40:02
Speaker 2: with an acute abdomen obviously I'm going to have I'm
40:05
Speaker 2: a diagnostician, you know, I can't miss an appendix or
40:09
Speaker 2: somebody in atrial fibrillation. I'm primarily a doctor and so,
40:14
Speaker 2: but I'm talking about those who are coming in with
40:16
Speaker 2: possibly a chronic, long standing problem that isn't improving, that
40:20
Speaker 2: has been not been helped by the medical profession. I
40:24
Speaker 2: really want to know how how we can help in
40:27
Speaker 2: a slightly different way. By doing this by having an
40:31
Speaker 2: hour of them, I do then cover all their medical
40:34
Speaker 2: problems and actually end up by exaering them fully. So
40:37
Speaker 2: I can often find things that haven't been found before,
40:41
Speaker 2: mainly because they're open. And the other thing is because
40:43
Speaker 2: they don't have in a computer in my room. They
40:45
Speaker 2: trust me that the information they're giving to me is confidential.
40:49
Speaker 2: And that's another thing that's really concerning me. It's about
40:53
Speaker 2: the whole system. And people tell me that they're not
40:56
Speaker 2: sure what their toy talking to the doctor is going
40:59
Speaker 2: to remain confidential, and often it isn't going to. And
41:04
Speaker 2: also as far as medication is concerned, I still prescribe medication,
41:09
Speaker 2: but we're doing this, I prescribe a lot less. And
41:13
Speaker 2: we often find that once we start checking blood pressures,
41:18
Speaker 2: when the person's relaxed or at some sort of piece,
41:21
Speaker 2: or we've had a good conversation, the need for blood
41:25
Speaker 2: pressure medication reduces down because we discover that that's often
41:31
Speaker 2: been taken at a time of pressure and tension. So
41:34
Speaker 2: undoubtedly this leads to more focused prescribing, but less prescribing
41:41
Speaker 2: to And then you know, there are as I say,
41:45
Speaker 2: what I found when I started to do acupuncture, somehow
41:48
Speaker 2: in twenty minutes I could create a change, or we
41:51
Speaker 2: could together create a change and allow a sense of
41:55
Speaker 2: peace to occur, which may be a stepping stone to
41:58
Speaker 2: deeper healing, which is really what I've tried to do.
42:02
Speaker 2: So it's been listening and to know what their agenda
42:06
Speaker 2: is and to really, I say, when they come to
42:09
Speaker 2: see me, truss me out. Am I good enough for you?
42:12
Speaker 2: Somebody who can actually be of a help for you, you know,
42:17
Speaker 2: give them some power.
42:19
Speaker 1: I think too as well. I want to take you
42:22
Speaker 1: back to when you said belief, because you can listen.
42:25
Speaker 1: Any doctor can listen, I guess, but it's believing. And
42:29
Speaker 1: I know that. You know, since I've spoken to so
42:33
Speaker 1: many vaccine injured people, their frustration, their anger, and their
42:40
Speaker 1: journeys have been exacerbated so much because people haven't believed them.
42:45
Speaker 1: Medical professionals haven't believed them. They've said that their symptoms
42:49
Speaker 1: are in their head. And we know sometimes you know,
42:53
Speaker 1: when we get sick, when we get depressed, when we
42:55
Speaker 1: get anxious, then things do go on in our heads.
42:58
Speaker 1: But for these people that I've got very serious physiological
43:04
Speaker 1: symptoms and are suffering huge amounts of pain and illness.
43:09
Speaker 2: It.
43:11
Speaker 1: Really is is beyond words what we found. They've been
43:15
Speaker 1: never believed. So I think the fact that someone can
43:18
Speaker 1: come to you, be listened to and believed, that's the
43:22
Speaker 1: really important thing. And I confidentiality. I'm seeing these little
43:28
Speaker 1: light bulbs going off in my head all the time
43:31
Speaker 1: because confidentiality is a huge thing. We all thought that
43:36
Speaker 1: when we go and see our doctor confidential. However, in
43:41
Speaker 1: the climate that we're living in at the moment, where
43:45
Speaker 1: if we say the wrong thing, have we upset somebody?
43:49
Speaker 1: Have we offended somebody? Will we get reported? Will there
43:51
Speaker 1: be a knock on the door. In the UK at
43:53
Speaker 1: the moment, you know, we're all kind of thinking, well,
43:56
Speaker 1: if we re repost something on social media, people are
44:01
Speaker 1: having their doors knocked on. So I think that's a
44:04
Speaker 1: really good point. And I'm not sure that our viewers
44:08
Speaker 1: and listeners that are watching now in the UK will
44:12
Speaker 1: all feel comfortable actually now talking to their doctors because
44:15
Speaker 1: they're not quite sure if they're saying something that they
44:19
Speaker 1: should or actually if they're putting themselves at risk by
44:23
Speaker 1: admitting that they're not very well. Because all of a sudden,
44:27
Speaker 1: we seem to have got this clinical frailty score in
44:31
Speaker 1: the UK and there's these secret codings that are going on.
44:35
Speaker 1: So we've gone in for a consultation and a doctor
44:38
Speaker 1: is ticked a box or put a few codes down,
44:42
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you know, we're past our
44:44
Speaker 1: cell by date. We don't know how our information and
44:48
Speaker 1: how our I guess, how our attitudes and behavior is
44:54
Speaker 1: coming across now to GPS and to doctors. So there's
44:59
Speaker 1: this huge vents of mistrust and distrust now that's going
45:04
Speaker 1: on within the health system, and many people are seeking
45:09
Speaker 1: private medical care and they're also seeking alternative medical care,
45:15
Speaker 1: but of course that comes at a price, and we
45:17
Speaker 1: know the public know that as doctors, you have to
45:21
Speaker 1: you have to survive, you have to make a living.
45:24
Speaker 1: But some people aren't going to be able to access
45:28
Speaker 1: that kind of help, and I think we need to
45:31
Speaker 1: become now far more holistic. In the UK, we're seeing
45:34
Speaker 1: community care hubs popping up all over the place, which
45:37
Speaker 1: are going to replace those GPS that you said were
45:40
Speaker 1: selling up their practices retiring those are what are replacing
45:45
Speaker 1: those little tiny practices where you could go in and
45:50
Speaker 1: you've known your doctor for years and years. Now you
45:53
Speaker 1: don't know who you're going to see. And I know
45:55
Speaker 1: that AI is particularly concerning because are we going to
45:59
Speaker 1: be able to are we going to be speaking to bots?
46:01
Speaker 1: Is AI going to be diagnosing us? I mean, what
46:05
Speaker 1: serious effects? Because I can see many serious effects, especially
46:09
Speaker 1: psychological effects. If you're talking to AI, or if AI
46:15
Speaker 1: is diagnosing you, what are your thoughts moving forward on
46:18
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. Robin.
46:20
Speaker 2: I think it's sort of been with us for some
46:23
Speaker 2: time in that there was this shift to so called
46:27
Speaker 2: evidence based medicine, and evidence based medicine wasn't the experience
46:32
Speaker 2: of a doctor like May has been practicing for fifty years,
46:36
Speaker 2: or even an understanding of intuition, which I talk a
46:40
Speaker 2: lot about too. That's something we develop, intuition and experience.
46:45
Speaker 2: Evidence based medicine has been based on papers, studies in
46:54
Speaker 2: journals which we know from so many of the editors
46:59
Speaker 2: have most have come out and saying that you can't
47:02
Speaker 2: trust it. You know, the was it. Maria Angles from
47:07
Speaker 2: the New Union England Journal of Medicine several years ago said, look,
47:11
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the papers are rubbish. Now AI is
47:14
Speaker 2: just going to collect all that information that's come from
47:17
Speaker 2: academic departments have been funded by big corporations and collate
47:25
Speaker 2: those and say this is the way you're going to
47:27
Speaker 2: practice medicine. And the actual discriminating doctor has been cut
47:33
Speaker 2: out of this. I'm sure that the plan is to
47:36
Speaker 2: cut out thinking doctors. You've seen it. It's happening because
47:43
Speaker 2: we thinking doctor will could challenge what they're seeing. Now
47:48
Speaker 2: we're seeing less and less of that, we're seeing doctors
47:50
Speaker 2: who are just following protocols and their AI driven protocols,
47:54
Speaker 2: and then the doctor becomes somebody you can actually don't
47:59
Speaker 2: need any more because the protocol. The patient can go
48:01
Speaker 2: straight to the protocol and go straight to the pharmacist.
48:05
Speaker 2: The experience of someone else and the presence of someone else,
48:09
Speaker 2: which I think is the most important, is no longer
48:12
Speaker 2: being valued and that worries mean. I think that's happening,
48:17
Speaker 2: and the problem is that our generation know this, But
48:23
Speaker 2: there are the generations the last two generations maybe not
48:27
Speaker 2: have had experience of the sort of medicine that we're
48:30
Speaker 2: trying to practice, and will accept it as normal that
48:34
Speaker 2: there'll be a protocol that's been promoted. Here. As you know,
48:37
Speaker 2: we've had direct consumer advertising, with the first country in
48:40
Speaker 2: the world that's had that for over thirty years. So
48:43
Speaker 2: people go to their doctors having seen their advert the
48:47
Speaker 2: farmer advert on TV, and in six minutes ask the
48:52
Speaker 2: doctors prescribe this medication, and in six minutes that doctor,
48:56
Speaker 2: especially if they're charging fifty dollars, aren't to say no.
49:00
Speaker 2: So it's been well known that these influences of which
49:06
Speaker 2: AI is just expanding have been there on general practice,
49:11
Speaker 2: and it's really it has it's taken it's taking the
49:15
Speaker 2: thinking doctor out of the equation because they probably are
49:19
Speaker 2: the block two over prescribing. And that's certainly what's happened here.
49:27
Speaker 2: So the great dangers I think, I mean, what's the
49:31
Speaker 2: good things about AI? Have been talking to an eye
49:33
Speaker 2: specialist and apparently applying AI to retinal diagnosis and then
49:38
Speaker 2: treatment laser and everything is game changing. And I will
49:42
Speaker 2: accept that. I will know that the reading of scans
49:45
Speaker 2: and cts and MRIs by AI is probably more efficient
49:51
Speaker 2: than even the most experienced radiologist, and that's the worries.
49:56
Speaker 2: So on that level, yeah, it's fine. But to tell
50:00
Speaker 2: take away the presence of other human beings in people's healing,
50:06
Speaker 2: I'm I yes, I don't like I don't like that
50:11
Speaker 2: at all.
50:12
Speaker 1: Robin. You say the word presence, and I get I
50:16
Speaker 1: get what you mean by presence, and I think everybody
50:19
Speaker 1: watching will as well. But how do you describe presence?
50:25
Speaker 1: Because it's so fundamentally important, it's the center of everything,
50:31
Speaker 1: But how do you describe it?
50:35
Speaker 2: So difficult, isn't it? I think, I mean many people
50:38
Speaker 2: that come to us and are just ask them something
50:42
Speaker 2: and there'll be will be tears in their eyes when
50:44
Speaker 2: they describe it. I haven't thought that, so just that
50:47
Speaker 2: won't happen on Zoom. That will happen if you're present
50:50
Speaker 2: with somebody and intuitively you pick up a sadness or
50:53
Speaker 2: you may well say, oh, look you look happy today,
50:57
Speaker 2: or you look sad today. So just the actual presence
51:01
Speaker 2: of somebody close to you in confidence opens the door
51:08
Speaker 2: to a deeper scent, a deeper healing. Healing. Deep healing
51:14
Speaker 2: doesn't go in a straight line. There's ups and downs,
51:18
Speaker 2: so there's that other person has to be with you
51:22
Speaker 2: on the ups and downs and reassure you on the
51:24
Speaker 2: downs and also reassure you on the ups, you know,
51:28
Speaker 2: to say that, Okay, it may not be so good tomorrow.
51:32
Speaker 2: So I don't see how any computer algorithm had come
51:36
Speaker 2: close to doing that. It's also a huge privilege for
51:41
Speaker 2: the doctor or the therapist or the nurse. I think
51:45
Speaker 2: you'd say, Debbie, that was what you were doing as
51:48
Speaker 2: a nurse. You were there with their ups and downs,
51:51
Speaker 2: and you were laughing and crying with them and also
51:55
Speaker 2: sometimes feeling really lost with them. And that's aly also
51:58
Speaker 2: important story. I mean it just a brief story about
52:02
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. A young he was about eleven year
52:07
Speaker 2: old boy who had come over from Cambodia Water Cambodia
52:14
Speaker 2: with his parents, and his father had arrived in New
52:18
Speaker 2: Zealand and within four weeks had died of an asthma attack.
52:22
Speaker 2: And he watched his father die and he came to
52:26
Speaker 2: see me, and he developed a twitch. He developed a
52:29
Speaker 2: tick in his face, which, of course at that age,
52:32
Speaker 2: he was being teased awfully at school for. And they
52:38
Speaker 2: the grandparents brought him in and said, look, you know,
52:41
Speaker 2: I've got to do something about it, can you. I've
52:43
Speaker 2: heard accupuncture could help that. And I sort of sat
52:47
Speaker 2: with him and intuately fell. I didn't want to stick
52:50
Speaker 2: pins into him. I didn't do I can use lasers
52:53
Speaker 2: of various other things. I just wanted to really get
52:57
Speaker 2: to know him, So I said, what's your power? And
53:00
Speaker 2: he said, I'm a tap dancer. I'm doing tap dancing
53:03
Speaker 2: at my school. And I said, tell you, tell you what.
53:06
Speaker 2: We'll go into this room. They may think we're doing accupuntment.
53:09
Speaker 2: Could you teach me to tap dance? And I tap
53:13
Speaker 2: danced in a dad dance sort of way, you know,
53:15
Speaker 2: I was dad dancing with him, and we did this
53:18
Speaker 2: over four or five times, and I talked to him
53:21
Speaker 2: and his twitch went and it was very clear that
53:24
Speaker 2: he was deeply grieving for his father and rather than
53:28
Speaker 2: the grandfather figure I am now, I was a grandfather
53:30
Speaker 2: figure in those days, and so that that to me,
53:35
Speaker 2: if that explains the presence of somebody, I'd still I
53:40
Speaker 2: was terrible at tap dancing, which he thought was really funny.
53:44
Speaker 2: I still can remember some of the moves. It's not
53:48
Speaker 2: rocket science, it's but these are the as you will know, Debbie,
53:54
Speaker 2: these are the things that you remember and they give
53:59
Speaker 2: you jaw and give you sustenance to carry on, yeah,
54:04
Speaker 2: or give me anything.
54:05
Speaker 1: So you're so right, And I feel a lump in
54:10
Speaker 1: my throat actually, because when you said privilege, this is
54:14
Speaker 1: why for me especially, it's so lovely to talk to
54:20
Speaker 1: others who have trained at the same time as myself.
54:23
Speaker 1: And I get loads of emails from doctors that trained
54:27
Speaker 1: at the same time as we did, from nurses that
54:29
Speaker 1: trained the same time as we did, and they're all
54:33
Speaker 1: saying the same it was a privilege. It is a privilege,
54:37
Speaker 1: you know when you when you go into hospital, it's
54:40
Speaker 1: a scary It's a scary experience. It's anxiety inducing. Patients
54:44
Speaker 1: aren't used to hospitals. The smell, the noises, the different people,
54:50
Speaker 1: the difference in routine. It's scary. And we always used
54:55
Speaker 1: to laugh with our patients. We used to tell jokes.
55:00
Speaker 1: We used to cry with them too, And I still
55:03
Speaker 1: remember many of my patients by name. Some of them
55:07
Speaker 1: we lost, and some I cried openly with the relatives
55:13
Speaker 1: and other times privately by myself. And there was that
55:19
Speaker 1: the human presence that it was there. You're absolutely right.
55:23
Speaker 1: And I guess because I haven't been in clinical setting
55:27
Speaker 1: for so long, perhaps i'd noticed. I hadn't noticed that
55:31
Speaker 1: it had gone because TLC. Again, that was about some
55:36
Speaker 1: braces of our training, tender loving care. Every single person
55:42
Speaker 1: that came into a hospital, we were told that we
55:45
Speaker 1: should imagine that that was one of our family. That
55:48
Speaker 1: was our mum, our dad, our brother, our sister, and
55:52
Speaker 1: the relatives were our regulators.
55:54
Speaker 2: You know.
55:54
Speaker 1: We welcomed the relatives. They used to pile in at
55:57
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the afternoon with flower and magazines and
56:02
Speaker 1: smiles and tales of home and reassurance of the dog's fine.
56:08
Speaker 1: The cat's been fed, your pension's being picked up, all
56:11
Speaker 1: of those little things. Sitting I mean I used to
56:14
Speaker 1: get told off for sitting on a bed because you
56:16
Speaker 1: could never sit on a bed. You'd end up with
56:19
Speaker 1: a matron coming over and say infection control off. That
56:24
Speaker 1: sitting on a bed, holding a hand, sharing a cup
56:28
Speaker 1: of tea, to me was the best medicine ever. It
56:32
Speaker 1: was good for me because I got to hear how
56:35
Speaker 1: the patient was feeling. It was good for the patient
56:39
Speaker 1: because they had communication, that one to one communication because
56:43
Speaker 1: we're whizzing around all the time, so to be able
56:45
Speaker 1: to stop and take time, and that's what you give
56:49
Speaker 1: your patients time. For many that are watching who are
56:53
Speaker 1: going well, I can't get to New Zealand. I don't
56:56
Speaker 1: live near Robin. What do I do? And there's a
57:01
Speaker 1: question for you, Robin. For people that are watching and
57:04
Speaker 1: listening and going well, I can't access Robin. But I
57:07
Speaker 1: want to access that sense of calm, that sense of peace.
57:10
Speaker 1: But I don't know a GP near me. In order
57:13
Speaker 1: to achieve that, what can they do to help themselves?
57:17
Speaker 2: Hopefully, what I'm talking about is not the survival of doctors,
57:21
Speaker 2: because I'm less if doctors don't do this, and they
57:25
Speaker 2: don't survive in the way that I'm talking about, and
57:28
Speaker 2: that's their fault in some ways. The great shame is
57:32
Speaker 2: that there's going to be people that miss out on this.
57:34
Speaker 2: So I always say the reason I'm sort of speaking
57:36
Speaker 2: out on this is or not for doctors so much
57:39
Speaker 2: as people to demand this to be and it's very,
57:47
Speaker 2: very difficult. I've thought really deeply about this, and I
57:51
Speaker 2: think it's so deep this it probably goes into our
57:56
Speaker 2: education from childhood and how we are being educated even
58:03
Speaker 2: before people go to medical school to follow their passions,
58:08
Speaker 2: which is something that I've done since I've been in
58:11
Speaker 2: medical school. Everything I've done is self taught now and
58:15
Speaker 2: that's how I remember it. How are going to It's
58:18
Speaker 2: a very good question. How are people going to access
58:23
Speaker 2: this sort of medicine and not pay through the nose
58:26
Speaker 2: for it. I hope there's enough doctors who I've been
58:32
Speaker 2: able to do it and people I do charge it
58:35
Speaker 2: as private, but it's not people hopefully can still afford
58:39
Speaker 2: what I do. I think every doctor you can only
58:46
Speaker 2: come through this through a deep longing on yearning to
58:51
Speaker 2: be this sort of doctor. I don't think you could
58:54
Speaker 2: even teach it. I think it has to start at
58:56
Speaker 2: school and medical school or whatever where people are attracted
59:00
Speaker 2: to this because of humanities and everything. So it may
59:04
Speaker 2: take a bit of time before this is developed. I
59:07
Speaker 2: just want people to somehow know that this is possible
59:12
Speaker 2: out there, and doctors don't have to do acupuncture, they
59:16
Speaker 2: just have to follow their own heart and deeper conviction
59:20
Speaker 2: on healing. And yeah, I wish I could answer that properly,
59:28
Speaker 2: but I know it's a bit desperate for people. I
59:31
Speaker 2: know people are desperate for this. They can write to
59:35
Speaker 2: me and if they like, if they've got suggestions, because
59:38
Speaker 2: I'd love to know. I'd love to know.
59:42
Speaker 1: Oh that brings me on, Actually to my final question
59:45
Speaker 1: before I throw to you for your last word, which
59:48
Speaker 1: is where do we find you? There will be an
59:51
Speaker 1: article underneath this interview when it goes out, and there's
59:55
Speaker 1: going to be links to because Robin, you've done a
59:58
Speaker 1: Ted talk. I've watched it, so I've popped a link
1:00:02
Speaker 1: into that. There'll be links to your books because you've
1:00:05
Speaker 1: written a few of those as well, and there'll also
1:00:08
Speaker 1: be a link to your website. But just briefly before
1:00:12
Speaker 1: I get before I hold throw to you for the
1:00:14
Speaker 1: last word, tell us where we can find you and
1:00:17
Speaker 1: where people in New Zealand and welcome if you're in
1:00:20
Speaker 1: New Zealand. And if you're saying, yes, I want to
1:00:22
Speaker 1: go and book an appointment with Robin, how do we
1:00:25
Speaker 1: do that Robin?
1:00:27
Speaker 2: I think probably through the website is the best. It's
1:00:30
Speaker 2: a link to my email and that's probably the best thing.
1:00:35
Speaker 2: And I've got my phone number there which is probably
1:00:38
Speaker 2: the easiest, and that gets through to my wife who
1:00:40
Speaker 2: can you know who? You know? It's really good at
1:00:45
Speaker 2: helping sort out appointments, So and I think that that's good.
1:00:51
Speaker 2: As far as my books, you can get them on Amazon.
1:00:54
Speaker 2: I have a supply of my rooms, but I'm fortunately
1:00:57
Speaker 2: I have to go to Amazon because they can't import
1:01:00
Speaker 2: all them anymore. Yeah, and I think anybody in New
1:01:06
Speaker 2: Zealand can just google my name and get the address
1:01:10
Speaker 2: and picture of her home and everything, so I don't
1:01:12
Speaker 2: think that's particularly difficult for them. Yeah. And you know,
1:01:18
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear from people, and if I can't
1:01:23
Speaker 2: help them, I can certainly guide them to someone else
1:01:26
Speaker 2: who can.
1:01:28
Speaker 1: It's just wonderful that we have doctors like you, and
1:01:33
Speaker 1: I hope that if there are any gps out there
1:01:36
Speaker 1: that are watching that think, actually, this is a good model.
1:01:40
Speaker 1: This is a very good model and it's working. I
1:01:42
Speaker 1: would hope very much that you would contact Robin and
1:01:46
Speaker 1: have a chat because in the UK we really need,
1:01:49
Speaker 1: we really need a system like this. And if you
1:01:51
Speaker 1: know of a doctor in the UK that is operating
1:01:55
Speaker 1: in a similar way East meets West and holistic therapies
1:02:00
Speaker 1: as well, then please let us know. And similarly, if
1:02:04
Speaker 1: you like what the UK Column does and you would
1:02:07
Speaker 1: like to support us, we would be incredibly grateful. Please
1:02:11
Speaker 1: share our material and pass it around because you know,
1:02:16
Speaker 1: we often tell you things at UK Column that you
1:02:19
Speaker 1: won't find anywhere else because we speak to our members
1:02:22
Speaker 1: and we speak to our audience, because our audience are
1:02:26
Speaker 1: so learned and expert, and in particular today Robin. As
1:02:31
Speaker 1: well as thanking you for staying up because it's evening
1:02:34
Speaker 1: time New zealand morning time in the UK, i'd also
1:02:37
Speaker 1: like to thank Stephanie Sinclair, our producer, who has facilitated
1:02:42
Speaker 1: this interview earlier than normal for us. So thank you
1:02:46
Speaker 1: to everybody who's been watching, and I'm going to throw
1:02:49
Speaker 1: to you, Robin for your last word, and thank you
1:02:53
Speaker 1: so so much for a being a member, supporting us
1:02:57
Speaker 1: and coming to speak to us. Thank you.
1:03:00
Speaker 2: I suppose my final message is the importance of presence
1:03:07
Speaker 2: of somebody else who can help and guide you. I
1:03:12
Speaker 2: find patients people coming to me guide me in so
1:03:15
Speaker 2: many ways anyway, and that it's important that you have
1:03:19
Speaker 2: somebody that isn't a doctor, isn't just looking at a
1:03:21
Speaker 2: computer screen following an algorithm, but actually is listening to you.
1:03:25
Speaker 2: They can certainly use all the technology and a lot
1:03:28
Speaker 2: of it's wonderful, but they have to be listened to you.
1:03:31
Speaker 2: So if you leave that doctor's room without feeling you're
1:03:34
Speaker 2: being listened to, then try and find someone else. I
1:03:37
Speaker 2: don't know that's difficult, but I think it's got to
1:03:39
Speaker 2: come deeply from the public to demand this. And you know, yeah,
1:03:47
Speaker 2: I just wish well for everybody, And that's what I'm
1:03:50
Speaker 2: trying to do now, is just to spread the word
1:03:53
Speaker 2: so somebody hopefully will pick that up. And please they
1:03:57
Speaker 2: don't have to do it like I've done. You don't
1:03:58
Speaker 2: have to do acupuntese medicine, a reading medicine. You just
1:04:02
Speaker 2: have to use your own deeper.
1:04:06
Speaker 1: Uh.
1:04:06
Speaker 2: Well, there's a deep part of your soul involved, but
1:04:09
Speaker 2: also your creativity and your common sense. And good luck
1:04:14
Speaker 2: to everybody,