Latest / Heaven & Healing Podcast / Possession vs. Demonization: The Debate That’s Splitting Churches

Transcript

Possession vs. Demonization: The Debate That’s Splitting Churches · Heaven & Healing Podcast

0:00
Can a Christian have a demon? A lot of
0:03
the times the moment this is asked, it
0:06
makes half the church shut down
0:08
emotionally before they ever open a
0:11
Bible. Okay? Because from what I've
0:13
noticed for a lot of believers, that
0:17
question in it of itself, it just
0:20
doesn't sound theological. It sounds
0:22
like downright offensive, like it's an
0:26
attack on salvation somehow, right? And
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I get it because I used to think the
0:31
same thing. It's like, "Oh, someone is
0:34
really implying that Jesus didn't do
0:37
enough that I could actually have a
0:40
demon." Okay. And because of that
0:43
emotional response, the conversation
0:46
usually ends before it begins,
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unfortunately. So, instead of examining
0:50
scripture, it's shut down. The reaction
0:52
is immediate shutdown. But here's the
0:54
thing. Your discomfort is not always
0:58
discernment. That's not necessarily the
1:00
Holy Spirit telling you that that
1:02
doctrine is theologically incorrect.
1:06
Sometimes that is a wound that's being
1:09
rubbed up against and it kind of hurts a
1:11
little bit. So you react to it. And so
1:13
the issue is that most of the strong
1:17
reactions to this topic are based on
1:20
what people think the question means and
1:24
not what the Bible actually says about
1:27
it. Because in most people's minds it's
1:29
like the conversation sounds like, okay,
1:31
can a Christian be possessed by a demon?
1:33
But see, that's not even the claim
1:35
that's being made. Like you don't have
1:38
to get so offended by the idea that a
1:40
Christian can be possessed because
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nobody's saying that Christians can't be
1:45
owned by demons. That's not what we're
1:47
asking. We're asking can a Christian
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have a demon as in occupied by not owned
1:54
by. Right? So before we talk doctrine
1:58
and verses and deliverance, we have to
2:01
just untangle this misunderstanding that
2:04
has blocked the dialogue of this from
2:07
happening in a healthy way online,
2:08
especially over and over again. Because
2:11
if we're just arguing against a
2:13
definition of demonization that the
2:15
Bible never actually gave, then we're
2:18
never going to land where scripture
2:19
actually lands. And if scripture shows
2:22
that believers can indeed be saved,
2:25
sealed, and still need freedom in other
2:28
areas of their life, including from
2:31
demonic torment, then this shouldn't be
2:34
like such a controversial conversation.
2:37
Matter of fact, it should be a necessary
2:39
one that we have. So before I get into
2:41
the spiritual anatomy and the
2:42
sanctification, deliverance and and all
2:45
those things, we just have to deal with
2:46
this misunderstanding. We have to start
2:48
with the word. The one single word that
2:51
people use this or build rather this
2:54
entire theological defense around. And
2:56
guess what? Possession
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isn't even the word the Bible uses. It's
3:00
the word you're using. That's the word
3:01
you're perceiving through your wound. So
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the King James is actually the only
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translation that does say possession.
3:09
But it's a really bad translation. If
3:11
you look at the Greek language of
3:14
scripture, which it's always so
3:16
important to do, by the way, so
3:18
important to cross reference with the
3:20
original language cuz believe it or not,
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English isn't always right. So the
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original Greek language of the word that
3:26
King James so poorly translates is
3:28
diamitsami.
3:30
All right, that is the actual word the
3:34
New Testament uses to describe someone
3:37
that is under demonic influence, which
3:40
is the etmology of that Greek word.
3:43
Okay, it does not mean possession. It
3:45
does not mean ownership, which is
3:48
obviously what possession is. But the
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Greek term diamitimi does not mean
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property. It does not describe legal
3:56
possession in the sense of ownership
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rights. Okay? It describes simply
4:01
someone being demonized, like afflicted,
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influenced, used, tormented by a demon
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in some capacity, but not owned by it.
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So that that's not like some small
4:11
distinction that we can just be like,
4:13
oh, it's a matter of semantics. No, it
4:14
quite literally changes the entire
4:16
framework of the conversation because in
4:18
that case, yeah, ownership would be a
4:21
salvation issue. It would be kind of
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like, what are you saying about the
4:24
cross? But influence, influence is a
4:26
sanctification issue. Okay, ownership
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answers the question, who do you belong
4:31
to? But influence answers the question,
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who still has access to areas in your
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life. And we know biblically, obviously,
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a believer belongs to Christ, period.
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You're purchased, you're redeemed,
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you're sealed, that's settled. But
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deliverance ministry, which I honestly
4:48
even hate saying that because
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deliverance is just a part of the
4:53
ministry of Jesus, I digress that point
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for now. What I'm saying is that
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deliverance ministry does not argue
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against that very truth that a believer
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in fact belongs to Christ. In fact,
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deliverance depends on that truth. Okay?
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Like the authority to command darkness
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to leave only exists because the person
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belongs to Jesus who is the light of the
5:15
world. But see, the Bible does not teach
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that belonging to Christ automatically
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means every area of a person is just
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already free from every bondage,
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influence, affliction, whatever. I mean,
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if it did, sanctification would be
5:32
instantaneous, just like justification
5:34
is, right? Temptation would cease to
5:36
exist. Inner struggles would vanish the
5:39
moment of conversion. And that's
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obviously not the Christian life
5:43
described in scripture. Right now, can
5:46
Jesus take things in an instant whenever
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he wants? Like the moment moment you do
5:50
get saved, can he take something from
5:51
you? Can he take a demon? Can he take a
5:54
sickness? Can he take an affliction? Can
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he take a habit? Yeah, absolutely. He's
5:57
God. I'm not going to put them in a box
5:58
and say he can or can't. There's no
5:59
formula. For me, he took my intrusive
6:01
thoughts and depression instantaneously.
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For other people, they do go through a
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sanctification process where they need
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to be delivered from that or renew their
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mind from that or whatever. But anyway,
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that's neither here nor there. The point
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is what has happened in the modern
6:15
church is not only do we have this word
6:18
possession in a bad translation that
6:20
doesn't even match the original text.
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But you take that word possession and
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then you couple it with horror movie
6:26
culture, right? You think of this idea
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of like Christians having demons cast
6:29
out of them and you think you
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automatically jump to the exorcist. just
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this complete total lack of control that
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the person has where you essentially
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become some like parasitic monster, you
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know, and and that imagery, it has been
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deeply ingrained within us, which I
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think is what the devil wants, by the
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way. Like I think he wants us to think
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of like exorcism, deliverance, and
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demonization is this big scary monstrous
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thing because then couple all of that
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with believers hearing, "Yeah, a
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Christian can have a demon." And now
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what's happening is it's being
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interpreted through the horror movie
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lens by this like subconscious belief
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that you've been programmed into of what
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demonic influence should look like. And
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therefore, you know, the the claim, can
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a Christian have a demon becomes again a
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matter of Christian is owned by Satan?
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And that's not what anybody is saying.
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The answer to that is obviously no.
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Christian cannot be owned by Satan. A
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Christian cannot be owned by a demon. So
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once that straw man is removed, okay,
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we're left with a real biblical
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question. Can a person who belongs to
7:40
Christ still have areas in their soul,
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in their mind, will, emotions, habits,
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or body that are indeed under real
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spiritual influence or bondage through
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demonic occupancy that need to be
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brought into freedom by casting the
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demon out. I mean really this isn't a
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radical idea or a radical premise
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because every Christian already
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acknowledges similar categories that you
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can have sinful strongholds. You can
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have addictions,
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you can have thought patterns that are
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not aligned with truth, you can have
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trauma that still affects your behavior,
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you can have physical sickness in your
8:22
body and none of those things cancel
8:25
your salvation or mean that you don't
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have the Holy Spirit, right? None of
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those things mean the Holy Spirit left
8:29
you. None of those things mean that
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Christ doesn't own you. Okay? So the
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argument that oh God lives there,
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therefore a demon can't operate there.
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That's already proven false by Christian
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experience in scripture itself. The
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presence of God does not mean the
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absence of all opposing influence. What
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it does mean is that there is now actual
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authority and access to freedom. And
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that is what deliverance is. And that is
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the difference here. You see,
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deliverance isn't about changing who
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owns you. It is about removing what no
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longer has a legal right to stay. So, if
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your objection clicking into this video
9:11
is a Christian can't be owned by a
9:13
demon, great. We're on the same page.
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But if the discussion is, can a
9:17
Christian still need freedom from
9:18
demonic influence? The answer is yes.
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And I want to encourage you to lean into
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that because this is exactly why
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sanctification exists. All right. So,
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first and foremost, go ahead right now
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and just mentally separate ownership
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from influence. Amen. That'll bring us
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to Okay. Well, let's say you're right.
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For argument sake, Angela, let's say
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that you're you're correct in that.
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Where where could influence even operate
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then? Where could that influence be? If
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the Holy Spirit lives in a believer, how
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could a demon even be there? Not not to
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be claiming ownership over the person,
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but just influencing them at all. Well,
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I'm glad you asked. This aspect is not
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only a matter of semantics again, but
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it's a matter of structure. Meaning that
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we have to look at what scripture says
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about what a human being actually is.
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Because if we don't understand how God
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designed our spiritual anatomy, you
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know, what part of us is regenerated,
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what part of us is being renewed, and
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what part of us is not yet glorified,
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then we are going to just keep assuming
10:18
conclusions instead of deriving them
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from his order. So, this is spiritual
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anatomy 101. Welcome to class. So many
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of us have been taught about salvation,
10:28
but we haven't been taught about that.
10:31
Okay? And and the thing is if you don't
10:33
understand the difference between
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spirit, soul, and body, you will be
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doing mental gymnastics trying to figure
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out the logistics of this of can a
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Christian have a demon thing. And you
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will get caught up on things like the
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semantics of possession, influence, like
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cuz you're just going to draw really bad
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results from that because you're going
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to be leaning on your own understanding
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to fill in the blanks when scripture has
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already made it really straightforward.
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This is like biblical anthropology.
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Okay, watch this. Paul prays in 1
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Thessalonians 5:23 that our spirit,
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soul, and body be kept blameless. And
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obviously, that's three distinctions,
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right? That is three categories. And of
11:14
course, Hebrews 4:12 makes it so plain.
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Says that the word of God divides soul
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and spirit, which although they are
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connected, it means that they're not the
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same thing. Now, how about the very
11:25
account of creation itself in Genesis
11:27
22? In 2:7, Genesis 2:7, God forms a
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body from the dirt, breathes spirit into
11:34
man, and then becomes a living soul. And
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speaking of original language, by the
11:38
way, when you look at the Hebrew of that
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Genesis 2:7 account, all those three
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words are different. They're not
11:44
interchangeable. So, that's structure.
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That's spiritual anatomy. Okay? Spirit,
11:49
soul, body. The spirit is the part of
11:51
you that connects to God. That's where
11:53
regeneration happens. That's where the
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Holy Spirit lives. That is why scripture
11:59
speaks of being born again. Okay? The
12:02
human spirit is what's made alive and is
12:05
otherwise dead in your sin without him
12:08
there. Okay? Now, the soul is your mind.
12:11
The soul is your emotions. It's your
12:13
personality. It's your thought life. It
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is it's your memories, your your
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internal experiences, your
12:19
consciousness, [clears throat]
12:20
your decisions, all those sorts of
12:21
things. And this is the part of you that
12:23
scripture says must be renewed and
12:25
transformed and washed and brought into
12:29
obedience,
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sanctified. And you notice that the
12:33
language pertaining to the soul, unlike
12:36
the spirit, the language pertaining to
12:38
the soul is progressive. It's not
12:40
instantaneous. Okay? And then of course
12:42
the body, which is the physical vessel,
12:45
still subject to decay and weakness and
12:47
not yet glorified, but one day will be.
12:49
So when salvation happens, spirit is
12:51
alive, spirit is sealed, but your soul
12:53
enters a lifelong process from that
12:56
point forward of renewal. And then your
12:58
body awaits future glorification
13:02
after death and resurrection and the
13:04
appointed time of judgment. Okay? So
13:06
that timeline matters because if the
13:08
presence of the Holy Spirit in your
13:10
spirit meant every other part of you was
13:12
automatically perfected, sanctification
13:16
wouldn't exist and we would just be
13:17
glorified right now. actually like there
13:20
would be no time of appointed judgment
13:22
or resurrection. There would be no
13:24
command to walk out your salvation with
13:27
fear and trembling or any command to
13:28
renew your mind or or you know there
13:30
would be no battle with the flesh. No
13:32
growth process described in the New
13:34
Testament. But scripture consistently
13:37
describes believers as people whose
13:39
inner life is being brought into
13:41
alignment over time. Okay. So the
13:44
question becomes if the soul, if the
13:47
mind, the emotions and the internal life
13:49
is the arena where transformation is
13:51
still happening then why would we assume
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it is automatically off limits to
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spiritual influence
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until that transformation is obviously
14:01
complete. Right? The Bible describes the
14:03
mind as a battlefield after all. Like it
14:07
speaks of thoughts needing to be taken
14:08
captive. It warns of strongholds. It
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warns of deception. It warns of areas of
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the inner life not yet submitted to
14:17
truth. And that language
14:19
again, it's not about ownership. It's
14:21
just about territory. And once you
14:24
understand that the human spirit can be
14:27
sealed by God while the soul is still
14:30
undergoing a renewal process, that like
14:34
false dilemma, it's like it's done. it
14:37
collapses because the claim was never
14:39
that demons enter the spirit where the
14:42
Holy Spirit dwells. The discussion is
14:45
about influence operating through
14:48
unhealed, unrenewed, unsured areas of
14:52
the soul. Like the very places that
14:54
scripture confirms are indeed in a in a
14:58
construction process. Like this isn't
15:00
this isn't a mystical speculation simply
15:03
taking seriously what the Bible says
15:06
about how we are made and thus how we
15:09
are transformed and see like without
15:10
this framework the debate will stay
15:12
emotional but with it oh now we can have
15:16
an anatomical discussion okay we can
15:20
actually make it about the foundation of
15:22
scripture and you know what else
15:23
supports the anatomical structure like
15:26
everything else in the Bible I mean
15:28
scripture shows that God works in
15:30
design, in patterns, not in chaos. You
15:33
know, he reveals continuity in how he
15:36
creates, how he redeems, and obviously
15:38
how he reveals himself. Okay? And God is
15:42
one, but he's revealed as a father, son,
15:44
and holy spirit, which isn't a
15:46
contradiction. It is unity expressed in
15:49
this triune distinction. And we know
15:51
this, of course, right? So then, you
15:53
know, we know that and then we're told
15:56
by him that we're made in his image. So
15:59
it really shouldn't surprise us that
16:00
human design reflects a layered triune
16:03
structure rather than like a flattened
16:05
one or a dichomous one. Okay, spirit,
16:08
soul, and body. It's not like this
16:10
arbitrary new idea. This it literally
16:14
mirrors the order and dimensionality
16:17
that we see in God's own
16:20
self-revelation. And furthermore, that
16:23
pattern of three, it runs throughout the
16:25
totality of the biblical narrative.
16:27
There there's there's three major uh
16:29
realms of redemption described in
16:31
scripture. Individual people brought to
16:33
salvation, the corporate body of Christ
16:35
being glorified, and creation itself
16:38
awaiting restoration. Okay, there are
16:40
three major realms of redemption to
16:43
follow the three rebellions in
16:46
scripture. Spiritual rebellion, human
16:48
rebellion, and and the corruption of
16:50
creation. Like is this making sense?
16:51
Because God works in order. He works
16:54
with continuity. He works with
16:55
intentionality. So the idea that human
16:58
beings would be reduced to a simple
17:01
two-part framework, spirit and body or
17:04
soul and body or wherever there's like
17:07
not any distinction there. While
17:08
everything else in God's revealed design
17:10
shows dimensional depth, that doesn't
17:12
make sense. And it should make it should
17:14
make us reconsider. It should make us
17:16
pause. It's not like biblical theology
17:18
is random. You know, it reflects God who
17:21
built in patterns and parallels and
17:22
purposeful structure. So when scripture
17:25
explicitly distinguishes spirit, soul,
17:28
and body, we should probably take it
17:30
seriously, okay? Because that is simply
17:33
consistent with how God reveals himself
17:36
and how he builds reality itself. And so
17:40
once we get that the framework for how
17:42
salvation and sanctification and freedom
17:44
operate like you you get to you get to
17:48
kind of see it through a more crisp lens
17:52
because God is not working chaotically.
17:54
He's working in order within us. And
17:56
what's amazing is he has actually given
17:59
us a physical structure to mirror our
18:01
spiritual anatomy. The temple. Okay.
18:03
Throughout scripture, God uses this one
18:06
primary image to describe his
18:08
relationship with his people. And it's
18:10
not like metaphor. It is it is a
18:12
structural teaching tool. Because the
18:15
temple in the Old Testament, it was not
18:17
like a random building design. It was a
18:19
theological design, a theological
18:23
diagram. Even all these different, you
18:25
know, we joke in in reals and stuff
18:27
like, "Oh, I I I asked God for help and
18:29
then I got a three-page instruction
18:32
manual of how to build a tabernacle."
18:33
like all that stuff that we see is so
18:38
intentionally placed in scripture for us
18:40
and the design of the of the temple is
18:42
no different. Okay. So we see the three
18:45
structure within that and then the new
18:47
testament tells us that what oh that
18:49
believers are now the temple of the holy
18:51
spirit. So if we want to understand how
18:53
god's presence can dwell in a person
18:54
while that person is still in a process
18:57
we just look at the temple. we just look
18:59
no further than the temple because we
19:02
you know the temple had distinct zones.
19:05
It it was not just one undivided room.
19:08
You had the holy of holies which is the
19:10
innermost place right? God was there.
19:13
God's presence dwelled there. It was in
19:16
fact the most sacred separated set apart
19:20
inaccessible to corruption from the
19:22
outside space. It was it was for the
19:24
high priest only which by the way Jesus
19:26
is now our high priest. Hello. Oh, he's
19:28
the only one with access to the spirit.
19:30
Okay, so you had that and then the holy
19:33
place which is the inner working area.
19:35
This is where daily ministry happened.
19:37
This is like activity, interaction,
19:39
ongoing function like worship and and
19:42
stuff like that. Um and and sacrifice.
19:45
And then finally you had the outer court
19:47
which is like the outermost area of the
19:51
temple where this uh the sacrifices this
19:53
is where they were made rather and the
19:55
effects of the outside world could most
19:57
easily be felt here. Right now you think
20:00
about this parallel. Okay the human
20:02
spirit that is regenerated
20:05
sealed and indwelt by the holy spirit
20:08
corresponds obviously to the holy of
20:09
holies. Okay this is the seat of new
20:12
birth. This is like the covenant union.
20:14
And this is the divine indwelling. Only
20:16
the high priest has access to the holy
20:18
of holies. That is Jesus Christ. That is
20:20
the holy spirit within ours. Then the
20:23
soul, the inner court, the mind, will
20:25
and the emotions that it's that area
20:28
where the transformation happens, where
20:30
the thoughts are renewed, where choices
20:31
are made and growth and struggle occur
20:34
and all those things, all the
20:36
sanctification stuff we just discussed.
20:38
And then the body obviously corresponds
20:40
to the outer court which is the part
20:42
that's still in contact with the fallen
20:43
world like from the outside and
20:45
therefore still subject to it like the
20:47
weakness and decay and external
20:49
pressures. So okay there's that. Then we
20:51
take it a step further. God's presence
20:53
dwelling in the holy of holies
20:56
did not mean that everything else in the
20:59
temple complex was automatically made
21:01
perfect. Okay. The temple still required
21:04
cleansing because there could still be
21:06
defilements. There could still be
21:08
corruption that had to be dealt with.
21:10
But the presence of God did not remove
21:12
the need for purification.
21:15
Matter of fact, it was the reason the
21:18
purification mattered at all. And
21:21
likewise, the indwelling of the Holy
21:22
Spirit does not eliminate the process of
21:24
bringing every part of a believer into
21:27
alignment. Right? Like his presence, it
21:29
establishes the ownership and authority.
21:31
Yes. But sanctification is the ongoing
21:33
work of cleansing and renewal and
21:36
purification. So the idea that oh if God
21:39
lives there, nothing else can be
21:40
present. It just doesn't match the
21:42
biblical model that God himself gave us.
21:44
Like no, the temple shows us something
21:47
that's more precise than that. That God
21:49
can and does dwell in the innermost
21:51
place while other areas still require
21:54
restoration and cleansing and the
21:56
removal of what does not belong. So
21:58
that's not contradiction. And that's
22:00
like an actual biblical pattern here.
22:02
Matter of fact, there's actually a
22:04
moment in scripture that illustrates
22:06
this exact principle in a narrative, in
22:09
a biblical account. Okay? The book of
22:11
Nehemiah, after the temple was restored
22:13
and worship reestablished there, a man
22:15
named Tobaya, he was an enemy of God's
22:18
people. By the way, guess what? He had
22:19
been given access to a chamber inside
22:23
the temple complex. Not on the outer
22:26
court, but on the inner court inside the
22:28
house of God. Okay, this chamber that
22:30
was a part of the holy place, it was
22:32
supposed to be used for storing
22:34
offerings and holy items, but instead it
22:36
became a lodging space for someone who
22:38
didn't belong there. And when Nehemiah
22:40
finds out, he doesn't say, "Well, God's
22:43
presence is in the temple, so it's
22:44
fine." He doesn't say, "Well, God is
22:46
here, so nothing unclean could possibly
22:48
be." No, he throws Tobio's belongings
22:51
out, and he cleanses the chamber, and he
22:53
restores the place to its proper
22:55
purpose. Why? Because something can be
22:59
present where it does not belong even if
23:02
a place is dedicated to God. And its
23:04
removal is an act of restoration, not a
23:07
denial of ownership. Okay? The temple
23:10
was still God's even with the intruder.
23:12
And and with the intruder, he was
23:14
unauthorized occupancy. And because of
23:17
that, that room required cleansing.
23:20
Doesn't mean there was a loss of
23:21
covenant. It was just the removal of the
23:23
intrusion. And that's exactly what
23:24
deliverance addresses. Again, the same
23:27
framework, we are a temple of the Holy
23:28
Spirit. What better illustration than
23:30
that? Okay. God's dwelling place, which
23:33
is now you as his temple, can 100% still
23:37
have areas that require cleansing when
23:39
something gains access that does not
23:41
belong. Okay? And the solution to that
23:43
is not denial. The solution is the
23:46
removal and restoration. And that's
23:48
deliverance, y'all. And this is why
23:50
Jesus describes deliverance not as
23:52
something strange or unnecessary
23:55
or it can you know that can't be for the
23:58
people of God. Actually he describes
24:01
deliverance as bread for the children.
24:05
Right? Jesus is approached by the woman
24:07
asking for her daughter to be freed from
24:10
demonic oppression. his response. Okay,
24:13
he says it is not right to take the
24:17
children's bread and give it to dogs.
24:19
Now, notice what category deliverance
24:22
falls into. Bread. Bread. Not some
24:24
fringe ministry out there that like they
24:27
just be doing and making up rules and
24:30
acting like they No, it's called bread.
24:32
Bread is a daily substance, sustenance,
24:36
covenant provision. Bread is something
24:38
that belongs to the household. And who
24:39
are the children in that context? What
24:41
Jesus is speaking of, the children are
24:43
are literal covenant people. Like Jesus
24:48
is making a distinction between covenant
24:50
access and outsider status. He calls her
24:54
a dog. But the woman, she presses in
24:57
through faith. And guess what? Her
25:00
daughter is delivered. But the
25:01
theological statement remains there. He
25:04
wouldn't say it for nothing. that
25:05
deliverance is not described as
25:07
something that is for outsiders. It's
25:09
not for the dogs. It is provision for
25:12
those in covenants.
25:15
That is like massive reframing because
25:17
today many believers assume that
25:19
deliverance is something done to
25:21
unbelievers so they can get saved. But
25:23
Jesus presents it as something that is
25:26
belonging to those who are already in
25:30
the household. And under the new
25:31
covenant, believers are not we're not
25:33
outsiders that are like hoping to
25:35
qualify and get in. We are grafted in.
25:38
Amen. Like we are already adopted into
25:40
that. Praise the Lord. So deliverance is
25:42
a literal
25:44
birthight of being born again because it
25:46
is a covenant benefit that flows from
25:49
belonging. And see that this also
25:52
explains
25:54
that Jesus
25:56
clearly did not go out indiscriminately
26:00
casting demons just out of everyone
26:01
because without covenant freedom like
26:04
creates a vacuum, right? He warns us of
26:07
this that when a spirit leaves and the
26:09
house is empty, worse spirits can
26:11
return. Why? Because there's no
26:13
indwelling presence to establish
26:14
authority and order. So yeah,
26:17
deliverance outside of covenant, it can
26:19
be temporary relief, but deliverance
26:21
within covenant is restoration of
26:24
rightful rule. So the idea that
26:26
deliverance is somehow inappropriate for
26:28
believers contradicts how Jesus himself
26:32
categorizes it because he didn't call it
26:34
emergency rescue for pagans. He called
26:36
it bread for the children. Matter of
26:39
fact, we actually see this pattern just
26:41
continually reflected in his ministry
26:43
when he cast out demons. The people
26:45
involved are not portrayed as God-hating
26:48
pagans that reject him. Again and again,
26:52
deliverance is connected to faith in him
26:54
in the recognition of who he is as the
26:57
son of God and what he's come to do as
26:59
the Messiah. Okay? It's it's deliverance
27:03
is is given to people coming to him in
27:06
belief that he is who he says he is.
27:07
Right? And those being freed, they're
27:09
not resisting his authority. They're
27:11
coming under it. They're in agreement
27:12
with it. So you see deliverance always
27:15
flows from the context of response to
27:18
him not rebellion against him. And this
27:21
is so key you guys for all the
27:23
deliverance is for unbelievers folks
27:26
because deliverance in the gospels was
27:29
not framed as like a random public act
27:32
of service for the spiritually
27:34
uninterested or rebellious. It was
27:35
literally connected to faith and
27:37
covenant access and relationship. You
27:40
can't get much clearer than that. Oh,
27:41
well, Jesus cast out demons in the
27:43
Gospels, but that was before the cross,
27:45
so things changed. I get that that's
27:47
like a really convenient way to just
27:50
like poo poo this whole idea, but it
27:52
collapses. It It collapses because you
27:54
have to ask, okay, well, what did the
27:56
cross change biblically? What did the
27:59
cross change? Did it remove demons from
28:00
the earth? No. Did it end spiritual
28:02
warfare? No. Did it make us immune to
28:05
attack and temptation and deception and
28:08
oppression? No. What the cross did was
28:11
deal with legal standing and
28:13
reconciliation and forgiveness.
28:16
Okay? It did not erase spiritual
28:18
opposition from the world or from us.
28:20
Okay? Before the cross, humanity was
28:23
under the dominion of sin. Authority
28:25
over darkness rested uniquely in Christ.
28:29
Okay? And deliverance flowed from his
28:31
person and mandate through the original
28:35
apostles. After the cross though to
28:38
understand that the legal claim of the
28:40
enemy was now broken and all believers
28:44
were brought into Christ's authority. So
28:47
the authority expanded but the need did
28:51
not disappear. Does that make sense? And
28:53
the New Testament does not present the
28:55
cross as the end of confrontation with
28:59
unclean spirits. Okay? It presents the
29:02
cross as a decisive victory that
29:06
empowers believers to now enforce that
29:09
victory. And Jesus says in Mark 16:17,
29:13
speaking about the era after his
29:16
resurrection, by the way, that these
29:17
signs will follow those who believe.
29:20
Guess what falls into that? In my name,
29:22
they will cast out demons. Not just the
29:25
original 12, not just like the special
29:27
anointed one. those who believe. Okay,
29:31
deliverance is presented as a part of
29:35
normal believer authority, not just this
29:38
like temporary pre-cross phenomenon and
29:41
then of course I mean that argument
29:43
collapses in the book of Acts because
29:45
when you look at the book of Acts, the
29:46
history of the church after the cross,
29:48
after the Pentecost and the age of the
29:49
indwelling of the spirit, have demons
29:51
retired? No. We literally see unclean
29:55
spirits being confronted. We see bondage
29:57
being broken. see them being cast out.
29:59
We see spiritual power encounters. So
30:01
the fact is if demonization was only a
30:04
pre-cross issue, then Acts would show a
30:07
church with no spiritual resistance of
30:09
that nature. But that's obviously not
30:11
what we see. Instead, the narrative
30:14
assumes the reality of spiritual
30:16
opposition as still withstanding and
30:18
shows the church exercising Christ's
30:21
authority over [snorts] it because
30:22
that's what we've been given as an
30:24
inheritance and a promise from him. Not
30:26
because of us but because of his spirit.
30:28
Okay. So the cross does not remove the
30:30
battlefield. It just determines the
30:31
outcome. Praise God. So this claim that
30:34
deliverance ministry belonged to a
30:36
temporary era. It just like frankly
30:38
misunderstands what the cross actually
30:41
accomplished because the cross did not
30:43
eliminate the presence of darkness in
30:44
the world. His return will do that.
30:47
Hallelujah. His second coming. The cross
30:49
eliminated darkness.
30:52
the the darkness's legal right to rule
30:55
those in Christ. And something that has
30:57
lost legal right has to be removed in
31:00
practice, which is exactly what
31:02
deliverance is. It's just enforcing the
31:04
victory that [clears throat] Christ
31:06
already won. Okay? Deliverance doesn't
31:09
happen in spite of the cross.
31:10
Deliverance happens because of the cross
31:14
because the cross ensured believers
31:16
could actually drive those demons out.
31:21
But Angela, there's no Bible verse that
31:23
tells us to cast demons out of
31:24
believers. Well, if you can't tell
31:27
already, I've heard all these objections
31:30
a thousand times over, but that in
31:33
particular, that line, it's like the
31:35
closing argument that's always presented
31:36
to me as if the absence of one explicit
31:40
sentence therefore means that the entire
31:42
category is invalid. But like the
31:44
problem is that way of reading the New
31:47
Testament. It misunderstands
31:50
how the epistles function. Okay. The
31:52
letters themselves, they were not
31:55
written as like comprehensive manuals of
31:57
every ministry practiced in the early
31:59
church. They are situational documents.
32:01
They address problems and they correct
32:04
doctrine and they guide believers in
32:06
spiritual growth. Okay? and they assume
32:08
a shared understanding already of the
32:13
teachings and practices already
32:15
established by Jesus which casting out
32:17
demons was one of them. So the absence
32:19
of a verse that says word for word cast
32:23
demons out of Christians does not prove
32:26
the absence of spiritual influence in
32:28
believers lives. That is a fallacy.
32:30
Okay? It only proves that the letters
32:33
are not formatted as a stepbystep
32:36
guideline like ministry guides. So this
32:38
isn't a matter of whether the letters
32:40
describe the mechanics of deliverance.
32:41
It's a matter of whether the epistles
32:43
describe the conditions that show
32:46
spiritual conflict still operating
32:49
within the lives of believers at all,
32:51
which they clearly do, right? We're
32:54
warned not to give a foothold to the
32:55
devil. And that language assumes that
32:57
space can be granted if vigilance is
32:59
lost. Of course, okay, we're told to
33:02
resist the enemy, which means that we
33:04
can conversely embrace him. We're told
33:07
to stand against schemes, to guard our
33:09
minds, to take thoughts captive, to tear
33:11
down strongholds, which by the way,
33:12
those are instructions about contested
33:15
territory. So, why would the apostles
33:19
command believers to guard inner ground
33:21
that could never be challenged or
33:23
imposed upon? Just like we're told to
33:25
armor up, why would we be told to armor
33:27
up if something couldn't actually
33:28
penetrate and get in? Like why warn
33:31
about deception at all or spiritual
33:34
drift or influence if the inner life of
33:36
a Christian was just like untouchable in
33:40
every dimension of opposition? Well,
33:41
yeah, but I mean a demon can probably
33:43
like attach to you from the outside or
33:44
afflict you from the outside. I never
33:45
saw Jesus cast demons off of people. I
33:48
only saw him cast demons out of people.
33:50
So now you're the one making an
33:51
unbiblical case for that. So bottom line
33:53
is the New Testament describes believers
33:55
as people who belong to Christ but are
33:57
still very much so engaged in active
33:59
resistance in an active war against
34:01
spiritual oppression. Point blank. Okay.
34:04
And obviously like the battlefield is
34:05
not our identity. Our identity is
34:08
secure. But the battlefield is now the
34:10
areas of life that are still in the
34:13
process in sanctification of being
34:15
brought under Christ's lordship which
34:17
aligns perfectly with the pattern we've
34:19
already seen that salvation is what
34:21
establishes your ownership and
34:23
sanctification is what brings your
34:25
condition into alignment right and
34:28
warfare describes the resistance that is
34:30
encountered in that process so the
34:34
epistles didn't contradict the idea that
34:35
a Christian can in fact have a demon
34:37
they actually assume the reality of
34:41
conflict and command believers to
34:43
actively resist and guard and bring the
34:46
inner life into obedience to Christ. The
34:49
deliverance ministry is not out here
34:51
introducing a foreign problem. It's just
34:53
addressing the very spiritual resistance
34:55
that the apostles told believers to
34:57
confront. And when it comes right down
35:00
to it, sure, I can't give you a chapter
35:02
in a verse that says a Christian can
35:03
have a demon, but my friend, you
35:06
certainly can't give me one that says we
35:08
can't. And look, when scripture is
35:10
silent on a prohibition, we don't build
35:13
a doctrine of impossibility, right? We
35:16
look at the full council of God and ask
35:18
what the overall pattern reveals, and we
35:20
be diligent workmen of scripture to
35:22
rightly divide the word of truth. And
35:25
so, you know, the thing is it's because
35:26
theology is not built on one missing
35:28
sentence. Like, that's the point. It's
35:30
built on the weight of consistent
35:33
biblical narrative and scripture
35:35
interpreting scripture. And so, what
35:36
we've seen so far is that the Bible
35:39
distinguishes spirit, soul, and body. It
35:41
shows believers still undergoing renewal
35:43
in their inner life. It describes the
35:45
Christian life as an active spiritual
35:48
warfare. It warns believers that enemies
35:53
can have access, influence, and deceive
35:56
us. It presents deliverance as covenant
36:00
provision and not outsider spectacle. So
36:04
instead of being like, where is the
36:06
verse that says a Christian can have a
36:08
demon? We should be asking, what would
36:11
prevent spiritual influence from
36:13
operating in areas of a believer that
36:18
are still being sanctified? Because
36:19
we've already seen that obviously
36:21
scripture never teaches that the
36:23
presence of the Holy Spirit eliminates
36:25
all conflict within the believer. It
36:26
teaches that his presence gives us
36:29
authority to overcome and win the
36:32
conflict in his victory. Because guess
36:34
what guys, freedom without covenant is
36:36
unstable. Ask me how I know that as
36:39
someone who came out of new age. See,
36:41
this is why Jesus describes an unclean
36:44
spirit leaving a person, wandering, and
36:47
then returning to find the house empty,
36:50
swept and put in order, but unoccupied.
36:52
And then, okay, because nothing now
36:54
dwells there with authority. That spirit
36:57
returns with seven more wicked than
36:58
itself, and the person's condition is
37:00
worse than before. Freedom creates
37:02
space, and space must be filled with
37:05
rightful authority. So deliverance
37:08
removes the intruder, but covenant is
37:09
what establishes the ruler, guys. And
37:12
this is why deliverance is never
37:13
presented in scripture as a standalone
37:16
solution sort of thing. It it's always
37:18
connected to repentance and faith and
37:19
disciplehip and the indwelling of the
37:21
spirit because removal without the
37:24
replacement. It's just like I said at
37:27
the beginning, a vacuum. So if
37:29
deliverance were primarily meant for
37:31
unbelievers who have no covenant and no
37:33
indwelling spirit and no authority to
37:35
resist the enemy, then the pattern Jesus
37:37
described would be the norm. Just like
37:41
temporary relief followed by worse
37:42
bondage. So can demons be cast out of
37:44
unbelievers? Yeah, of course they can.
37:46
Of course they can be forced out of a
37:48
moment. They can even leave on their own
37:50
accord through a new age practice or
37:51
something. But what makes the freedom
37:53
sustainable biblically? The answer to
37:55
that is covenant indwelling authority
37:59
back to ownership. So this is also why
38:02
the idea that deliverance is mainly just
38:05
an evangelistic tool for people who
38:07
don't belong to Christ. It does not line
38:09
up with Jesus's warning at all. Like
38:11
driving something out of a person who
38:13
remains spiritually unfilled. It's not
38:15
restoration. It's like a setup for
38:18
relapse in a way. But you see, for a
38:20
believer, that equation, it's obviously
38:22
different because the house is not
38:24
empty. The rightful owner is present.
38:27
Authority now exists to close doors, to
38:30
keep them shut, and to renew the mind,
38:32
and to establish God's rule where that
38:35
intrus intrusion once was operating. I
38:39
mean, why would we be casting demons out
38:42
of someone who is already dead? Like,
38:45
who's already going to hell? It sounds
38:48
blunt, but just think about that. Not
38:50
only theologically, but just logically,
38:53
okay? Lose your salvation to get
38:55
deliverance makes no sense. People are
38:58
like, "You can only get delivered if
38:59
you're an unbeliever." Okay, so I have
39:00
to lose my salvation first to get
39:02
freedom from the demons. No, you get
39:04
freedom from the demons because you have
39:07
been saved and now you can be
39:08
sanctified. So, where does this leave
39:10
us? I hate when people call deliverance
39:12
a sensationalist doctrine. No, it's not
39:16
sensationalism. It's not fear. It's not
39:19
questioning salvation. Matter of fact,
39:21
deliverance enforces it. This is about
39:23
clarity. Okay? This is this is not this
39:26
has never been a salvation issue. This
39:29
has always been whether every area of
39:31
your life as a believer is automatically
39:33
brought into functional alignment the
39:35
moment you're saved or whether God's
39:38
work in us unfolds through a process
39:41
which scripture speaks of the latter.
39:42
You know, scripture consistently
39:44
describes salvation as decisive and
39:47
sanctification as progressive. That
39:50
legal standing that we talked about,
39:51
that's established in an instant.
39:53
However, lived freedom unfolds as truth
39:58
replaces lies, as obedience replaces old
40:00
patterns, and as Christ's rule is now
40:03
enforced in places previously shaped by
40:06
darkness. So hopefully this conversation
40:08
has in some capacity reframed
40:10
deliverance for you. Not because I want
40:12
you to be obsessed with demons. That's
40:13
like such a common famous accusation.
40:16
Talk about deliverance cuz you're
40:17
obsessed with demons. No, I'm obsessed
40:20
with the biblical narrative of
40:23
restoration. I'm obsessed with bringing
40:26
every dimension of my life and your life
40:28
under the lordship of Christ. Okay?
40:31
Deliverance is not about discovering who
40:34
owns you. It is about removing what
40:37
contradicts that ownership.
40:40
Okay, it's not the gospel, but it flows
40:42
from the gospel. Okay, it applies your
40:45
salvation's victory to areas that still
40:48
need alignment in the victory. And so,
40:52
ignoring that category of deliverance
40:55
altogether, it doesn't make you safer.
40:57
It just removes a biblical tool for
40:59
freedom. And it leaves a lot of you guys
41:02
fighting battles that you're never meant
41:04
to fight alone. And it also relieves you
41:07
of the responsibility Christ has given
41:08
you as a believer to go fulfill the
41:11
great commission which includes casting
41:12
demons out and seeing people get set
41:14
free and doing the things that he did.
41:16
Amen. So let me know in the comments
41:18
down below. Did this change your mind on
41:20
deliverance? Do you already believe in
41:21
deliverance? Matter of fact, I'd love to
41:22
hear your deliverance testimony. Like
41:24
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41:26
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41:52
Finally, I am on Instagram, Angela Marie
41:56
Scffiti, where I spend way too much of
41:58
my time. So, I'll see you over there.
42:00
Thank you for watching.