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The Pattern You Can't Explain | Trauma Bonds Decoded · Harder Than Life

• 0:01
  Now at Lowe's, faster quotes start at the Lowe's Pro Desk. Got a material list handwritten on a sticky note or saved us a photo? Perfect. Bring it to us and get a quote in minutes. And if you don't see what you need on the shelf, we'll help you get it. You can access thousands of products beyond what's available in-store or on lowes.com right from the Lowe's Pro Desk. Build quotes faster and source the materials you need to keep your jobs moving. Just like that at Lowe's.
• 0:30
  That whole she completes me thing is bull . Yeah. It's unhealthy. Yeah. We are all trying to complete our childhood with a romantic partner. Early love is very codependent love. Dopamine, you got oxytocin going on. We're trying to complete the childhood, but we end up picking the one that hurts us the more.
• 0:48
  Yeah, so we usually pick a partner that has characteristics to our primary caregivers. We think we're going to get it right this time. So this is why when you walk into a party and you'll pick the one that's the wrong one for you, but you'll say, oh my God, there's so much chemistry. Totally, because it feels familiar. Chaos is so exciting. Chaos is intensity. And if it's not there, I'm going to create it. I have control of this.
• 1:09
  Right, the illusion of safety. That was my rationalization of my bull****. Word that clients say most often in your sessions. I don't feel chosen. Most common line people tell themselves. I'm fine. We're going to go deep into this nervous system stuff. Essin Pernarly is a holistic therapist and founder of Eternal Wellness Counseling. But what makes her different is that she's been through it. She doesn't just talk about nervous system healing. She embodied it to rebuild her life. Let's get into it.
• 1:38
  And you've helped hundreds of people heal deep trauma, but you once described yourself as a tragic character in a novel, which I just heard some of what broke you before you became the healer. I didn't have like a rock bottom. I had an emotional rock bottom, right? Like nothing. I mean, I definitely, my spirit was broken. Uh,
• 1:59
  I think I started to self-medicate with alcohol very early on. I was a bartender. I was in – so I'm from New York originally. And so the Hamptons was my scene, Montauk, the Hamptons. I would bartend out there. And progressively, I began drinking more and more and more and partying. And I think I just got to this place in my life where I felt lost, empty, and I knew –
• 2:26
  I didn't know how to stop. I didn't know how to stop, but I didn't know how to keep living the way that I was living. Man, you're hitting me in the heart. It's exactly how the Heart of the Life movement started. Yeah. I felt trapped, really. I felt like alcohol was my armor. It was my mask. I felt that it was like the minute that I drank, it was this feeling like now I can be who I always wanted to be.
• 2:49
  Now I can navigate the world and move around in the world. And so what it was doing was it was masking my anxiety. It was masking my insecurity. It was masking my hypervigilance. And I developed that hypervigilance at a very young age because I was very, I guess, sort of like a precocious child where I...
• 3:08
  would feel any kind of tension in the household. And so I was very, very aware of, you know, cues and facial expressions. So I basically learned how to read a room before I learned how to read a book. The emotional rock bottom, I didn't hit rock bottom either. And I just, it just, I was depleted. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired.
• 3:31
  What was that moment and walk the people through? Because what I run into is people look at me and they go, well, you must have been drinking a lot. Like, well, it didn't start that way. So most of the listeners either, A, don't drink or drink very little. What should they be on the lookout for to get out of control? So keep telling your story all the way through to the day that you said,
• 3:53
  I'm done. I'm done. I think we all self-medicate in one way or another. Oh, yeah. You know? So easy? It's so easy. Like, so people, just because you don't go to alcohol or you don't go to drugs, people go to workaholism. People go to overfunctioning. People go to productivity. People go to eating. People go to, you know, relationships. People hide in relationships. And that's a big self-medicator, you know?
• 4:19
  We're taught about co-regulation, that we should have connection and safety and belonging. But at the end of the day, we can hide behind relationships too. So everybody in somewhere or another self-medicates whatever it is that, you know, pick your poison, doom scrolling, right? Now with the advent of social media. And so I think…
• 4:38
  you know, recognizing in other people patterns that everybody on some level self-medicates with something. So even if other people are not drinking, I think the signs to look out for with when it comes to alcohol is how you drink when you drink.
• 4:55
  So I have people – people can have one drink a night every night, but they can stop. They don't have the phenomenon of craving that occurs. They don't have that desire to have more. It's not enough, right? It's almost like, as we know, the phenomenon of craving, we call it the manifestation of an allergy. And I think that with a lot of people – I didn't understand when I saw people drinking and they'd have like a water and they'd just stop. And I'm like, you don't want more?
• 5:23
  And they're like, no. I'm like, that didn't make sense to me. When I drank, I drank for a feeling. I drank to elicit a change in an emotional state. So I wanted to feel differently than what I felt. So I was self-medicating.
• 5:39
  insecurity, fear, anxiety. I wanted to have fun. There was always an excuse, celebrate. But when I drank, I didn't have a limit. And I could go days without drinking, right? So it's hard to tell. So for listeners who are like, do I actually have a problem? It's how you drink when you drink. Can you put it down? Can you stop?
• 5:59
  I want people to understand that it is ubiquitous to everything she just said, even personal development. Yeah. You'll be so busy being busy that you're not looking in the mirror. So I've asked you twice now. I'm going to put you on the spot because you've ducked it. Yeah, no, no. What was the moment that broke you?
• 6:15
  So I'm very spiritual. I grew up very spiritual. I'm bilingual. I'm Turkish-American. I'm born and raised here. And so there's a holiday, a spiritual holiday that we have. And it's actually where you're supposed to manifest or pray for something that you want. Oh, boy. Yeah. And so you're supposed to go where four roads meet.
• 6:37
  which is pretty rare, you know, or you go to the beach. And when you go over there, you draw what you want. And I remember drawing an alcohol bottle and putting an X through it in the sand. Oh. And also I took Xanax because I would get hungover and then my nervous system, so it kind of went hand in hand. For hang-ziety. Yeah, for the anxiety, yeah. No, hang-ziety. Hang-ziety, oh, for sure. Oh, the worst. Hangover and anxiety again. The worst. And, you know, as it escalates, it turns on you and the very thing that's self-medicated. And so I remember that.
• 7:07
  And then I remember saying I was going to be done. And so part of the holiday is that you don't drink alcohol for a month and you don't – you sort of abstain. And I could do it every year and that year I couldn't do it. So I hid alcohol around the perimeter of my house. I was still living at home with my parents and I was in my master's degree and I was outside crying and drinking.
• 7:30
  crying and drinking. And I was like, this is not normal. This is definitely not normal. I can't stop. I don't have control over this. It has control over me. And so it was this sort of shame, this feeling of it's more powerful than me. I'm so smart. Why can't I beat this?
• 7:54
  And so I think it was the defeat. It was this moment where I was like – I was always wrestling with it, where I would always say, oh, it was because I had a lot of liquor. Now I'm going to switch to beer, you know. And, oh, I had too many shots, so I'm going to stay off of that, you know. Or I didn't eat enough, you know. I really didn't eat enough. And so this time I'm going to eat. And no matter what I did, no matter what modifications that I made, it was always the same result.
• 8:20
  So it was like very like self-will and I would really try really hard. But at some point I would black out, embarrass myself, couldn't stop. And the day after, the shame, the guilt, the remorse, and then it would pass, right? Because we have that built-in forgetter where we forget how bad it was.
• 8:40
  And then I would do it all over again. I could stop for a week or two. So, you know, for listeners, it's, again, how you drink, when you drink, and what you feel like. And I felt emotionally and spiritually dead inside and bankrupt. And I felt like I had no control. And I felt very trapped. I felt like I don't know how to go. I don't know how to live without alcohol, but I can't continue to live with it.
• 9:04
  So what do I do now? I want to say, just because I want the listeners to hear what my version is. I just hated the person in the mirror. Oh. I literally would look in the mirror and I'd be like, puffy, blotchy face. And then I would remember, I didn't have a forgetter.
• 9:19
  And I wasn't kind to myself. Yeah. Like, you did this, this, and this last night. This has got to stop. We were always like, oh, that was the life of the party. Oh, my God, Kelly was hilarious last night. You did this. And it's like, ew. You make insane points, which triggering my memories, right? So, me, I was on the beach in Key West Florida. And I just said, I'm taking 90 days off. And I took 90 days off. And I said, hmm, kind of like that. I'm going to take another 90 days off. And I took another 90 days off.
• 9:48
  And I went to a party and I looked around and somebody handed me a drink and I gave myself permission to have a drink. And I went, I looked around at everybody and I said, I don't fit in here. I said the drink down. I said, guys, see you. And I walked out and I just said, I'm done drinking. And that was it. Wow. So tell me your story.
• 10:08
  I think it was – it wasn't directly after that night, that spiritual night that I told you about, but it was about a week or two after that. I woke up one morning and I had like a psychic shift. I was like, I'm done. I was like, I'm done. And I had tried before. I had –
• 10:23
  gone to an AA meeting. I had, you know, dabbled in an IOP. And I'm from New York. And during that time, there was very limited resources for treatment. I remember there was a Kenneth Peters IOP recovery center. And I was like, yeah, dad, I'm going to go, you know, I didn't go.
• 10:40
  You say your dad, your parents knew? I was living. Oh, yeah, they knew. You know, they would say to me, everybody, it got to a point. I mean, I would hide it. There was alcohol stashed everywhere. You know, I was doing my master's degree and living at home with my family. But everything was like they knew. I was a very like you couldn't really hide it. You know, I was the life of the party. I was very open. You know, I was not a very secretive person. So you knew what was happening with me. And they all told me to stop. And I didn't listen.
• 11:09
  really going on since you're you have all these letters behind your name now you're on the other side what's really going on when people are choosing these distractions
• 11:19
  I think that there is something inside of us that is unresolved pain, trauma, implicit memory, explicit memory, which sounds complicated, but implicit memory is like from when we're in the womb until we can talk, we're storing all these sensations inside of our body and they're creating all these emotional patterns. And then explicit memory comes online when we're about, when we can, when we're verbal
• 11:45
  And our body starts to store all of these experiences, these unmet needs, these fears, these. And I think that somewhere along the line, we recognize that we're uncomfortable in our skin. I'd imagine the former is very hard to treat because you don't remember it.
• 12:01
  The implicit, right? Yeah. Part of me going into therapy was like, why am I the way that I am? Why do I think the way that I think? And what is it like inside of other people's minds? How do they think? Do they think like I think?
• 12:16
  And so there was like a very early curiosity and I've been reading books since I was really, really little. It was my armor. Books were my armor. It was always like knowledge is power. I had this like, you know, I was very always like higher education. There was a security in that for me. And so I was always like learning and reading and I felt like I don't think everybody thinks the way I think.
• 12:41
  I remember – so what I know now to be was intrusive thoughts and obsessive compulsive thinking. I remember like thinking, this is exhausting being in here. Does everybody – It is. Does everybody think like this? And so then it like – it piqued this lifelong curiosity and I'm this avid reader and –
• 13:02
  And so I'm in all these other people's stories. I think I'm escaping in these stories. I'm collecting knowledge. I'm learning things. So the implicit memory are sensations. They're reflexes. They're knee-jerk reactions to things. So when you feel something, when you get activated or you get triggered by someone, the memory and the feeling, the feeling is a memory.
• 13:25
  You don't have to recall it to me. You don't have to tell me when I was one years old, I got slapped in the crib. I don't need that. I need to know what the sensation is that's coming up right now. Oh, that's so good. I just realized that anytime I would feel from the second I felt something, the second I poured a scotch was literally one one hundredth of a second.
• 13:48
  So there's no pause. There was no pause in there. I didn't even... And it became just, oh, you feel something? And it was unconscious. So that's what it is. It was doop. So implicit is what the body tells you. Explicit is what you tell people. We're going to go deep into this nervous system stuff. I want to understand it because I'm moving some energy right now. Oh, that's so good. I'll show you the book I'm reading. And the funny thing is you just...
• 14:13
  brought up commiserating, we'll commiserate about the past. I would just say to myself, as long as I'm reading, as long as I'm working, as long as I'm working out,
• 14:21
  I have control of this. Right. The illusion of safety. Yeah. The illusion of safety. That was my rationalization of my bullshit. Yeah. Those are good, right? But if you look at things on a pie graph, right, is it taking up the majority of my life? Am I overdoing it? Because I can overdo exercise. Yeah. I can overdo productivity. Oh, I overdo everything. Yeah, right. And so if I'm hiding behind productivity, I'm not feeling. Yeah. And then I'm running on adrenaline and cortisol. What happens when I stop?
• 14:50
  You crash. You crash. I don't know what to do with myself. I don't know who am I without productivity? Who am I if I'm not hustling? Who am I if I'm not an over-functioner? But those are adaptations. Those are all adaptations. And so you said something really wonderful. You said a lot of this is an impulse reaction. There was no space between what I call stimulus and response. I didn't even recognize it. You didn't even recognize it because it's subconscious autopilot. That's all implicit.
• 15:19
  It's all implicit. It's subconscious autopilot. And so the body is telling you what to do. You know how people are like, I don't even know how I ended up with a drink in my hand. I don't even know how I did that. It's like the driving when you're driving home. It's become such a habit. You're on subconscious autopilot because it was a program that was downloaded. Subconscious autopilot. Subconscious autopilot, but it was a program that was downloaded into your subconscious. And so when a program gets downloaded into your subconscious, you're...
• 15:47
  Sometimes you can like listen to music and be in the car and you're like, how did I even get here? Like I was in my head. I was in the song because you have a program that's already downloaded to drive. So you came out of trauma, rebuilt your entire nervous system, and now you teach how to do it. Let's get into what happens.
• 16:08
  When you don't, because I ask myself this question all the time. I keep going. I always end up on, oh, they're going to regret it. But when I see people still out on life's merry-go-round, puke, get right back on. What happens to people that don't look in the mirror and say, I'm the controller of this? Fast forward to me because you're in the business. Tell me what happens. Yeah.
• 16:31
  So people who decide to stop self-medicating, whatever it is that you decide to do, emotions are going to start to surface. Emotional states are going to start to surface and parts are going to start to surface. And you're going to start to feel stuff you never felt before. And it's going to feel really uncomfortable and it is a visceral feeling that feels like you're dying. And why does it feel like you're dying? Because it's implicit memory coming up.
• 17:00
  The old you is dying. The old you is dying. And so now, and that's like a little bit of the issue that I have. Listen, I love the 12-step program for people who want to get sober. I don't feel like it's trauma-informed enough. You get sober, you know, you figure out a way, you figure out a path, whatever that is for you. You decide you're going to stop self-medicating.
• 17:20
  Whatever it is. Whatever it is. You're using sober, guys. It could be anything. It could be anything. The issue is that there's unprocessed emotions. You have an inner life that's rich and textured that hasn't been explored or processed through to completion yet. And so if you don't deal with that, you're abstinent. You're not self-medicating anymore. But you don't feel good.
• 17:43
  So you are going to look to fill that void with work, productivity, working out. These are healthier outlets. These are great.
• 17:52
  What's going on though? Are you still running? Are you still running? Because you can't bypass emotions. You can't spiritually bypass, meaning I can't say, life is great, I decided not to self-medicate anymore. And so what I see is a lot of people with unhealed pain, unhealed trauma,
• 18:13
  that haven't been informed about what it means. And trauma feels like this big thing, right? We all have embedded trauma. All of us. I don't care who you are. We all have embedded trauma. Because I don't know how many times I've heard, I grew up a great life. My parents were amazing.
• 18:31
  But you can see that they're out of alignment. They're not happy. There's something off. So it's the implicit trauma. Yeah, they can't recall it. What should they do? So you can't really recall implicit memory because it's encoded in your body. So explicit, you can tell me about, right? Because you're verbal.
• 18:49
  So explicit memory comes online around three to four years old. So you can tell me when I was four or five years old, my dad hit me across the face. Now, these are not just big – there's big traumas and little traumas, but there's micro-abandonments, okay? Micro-abandonment is –
• 19:06
  You know, I was really excited about cooking and my mom's like get out of the kitchen I'm gonna you know, I'm going to cook and at that moment I felt Miss attuned she didn't align with my experience. That's a micro trauma. I need attunement love safety connection belonging From my primary caregivers they need to attune to my world and so listen We're not here to blame people's parents, right? but
• 19:36
  People do the best that they can with what they have, right? But we all have some form of embedded trauma. The most attuned parent is attuned 33% of the time. The most well-adjusted. Think about that.
• 19:49
  And so the way that we create more attunement, which is what creates more secure people in general in life, more well-adjusted people, is through reattunement. Hey, I'm sorry mommy kicked you out of the kitchen. She was stressed out. She, you know, I just wanted to get food on the table. I saw that you were interested in cooking. You know what? Let's you and me. I'm going to teach you next time. I just went back in and reattuned with that child. I just did a repair. You're blowing my mind right now because –
• 20:19
  That's why I'm stuck. I can only imagine. So I moved in, my mother showed up on the doorstep of my stepfather, and I was five. And I have no memories of anything before five. And we were problem, my sister was nine years older than me, so she,
• 20:38
  knew what was going on and she said she raised me from zero to five. Your sister did? Yeah, who was nine years old. So here's a 13-year-old girl raising me. She was parentified. And I'm not trying to diagnose label, right? No, no, I'm just wild. Yeah. Because I'm moving all this energy. I'm just glad you're here. Yeah. That's what I'm getting to. Well, I'm glad. Thank you for having me. There must be things in my zero to five that I'm moving through right now. Totally. The reason why…
• 21:04
  Where I was getting at the question I asked you that we got on is what happens to people that don't deal? It shows up in other ways. So where do you see it show up more? It shows up in romantic relationships like like a lot. All of a sudden they are reenacting old trauma wounds unconsciously.
• 21:26
  So if you and I are dating and you have your phone and I come home and you're in your phone and you're not paying attention to me, my body remembers when my father didn't pay attention to me when I was young. I can't recall it, but my body remembers it.
• 21:42
  So what I can't tell you about, my body knows. So my body knows what I can't tell you. So the only things I can tell you are the things that I remember when I was verbal. And so this early lack of recollection of memories are encoded in our DNA. So we have to get access to them, right? But it's not in the way that we think we have to get access to them. It's not that you have to figure out –
• 22:09
  That when you were in your mom's stomach, she was anxious, so your nervous system wired to her nervous system, so you came out primed for fear. You're not going to remember that. You're not going to know if your mom had postpartum depression and she couldn't give you enough attention and food, because you are experiencing a sensational odyssey.
• 22:29
  until you can talk. Everything is coming in through sensation. It is like when I'm hungry, I cry, when I want to get fed, when I want to have my diaper, everything is sensory. So I'm connecting with you as a primary caregiver sensationally, sensation to sensation. So how are we now as adults going to heal stuff we can't recall? We're going to meet it with sensation to sensation. So you don't have to tell me.
• 22:58
  What happened to you? You don't even have to know. What I care more about is what is the feeling that comes up? What is the discomfort? What is the sensation that comes up? Because I can help you rewire that.
• 23:12
  She's explaining my life. She's explaining the heart of the life nation right now. So the people that listen to this, you're getting a free masterclass. I get excited about it because I see the changes. And I think I'm going on now like 17 years of doing this. And it's, you know, it's hard, but it's so rewarding. I can't walk alongside people if I haven't gone through it myself. So every training that I've done to become a better clinician and a better human being and to be of service,
• 23:41
  I have to do my own work. They require you to do your own work. So you said something really great. You said, I had this narrative about my life and a lot of people have a narrative about their life.
• 23:52
  I don't know what's wrong with me. I had this and I had, you know, I had a great life. That was my narrative. My mom and dad are married for years. My mom is my best friend. My dad is my best friend. My aunt is my best friend. I come from a very close-knit family that exists. But you know what else exists that I didn't know that was in my implicit memory? That I was their therapist.
• 24:12
  since I was four or five years old. I was their emotional translator. What a big, huge burden and a responsibility to go into one room and say, what mom really meant was this. What dad really meant was this. And then they would make up. So in my mind, it was like, I control this.
• 24:32
  This is how I earn safety. This is how I earn connection. And I don't want to be a child of divorce. So I better make sure I keep them together. How'd you figure that out? Through my work. I would – but if you asked me this before I did the trauma work, before I did it, I would – you know what I would have told you? My narrative. My parents are happily married. I come from – my mom and dad are loving. I come from an amazing family. I grew up in an upper-class neighborhood in New York.
• 24:58
  in a suburban area. I had lots of friends. I was very popular. I played sports. I danced. These are all true, but so is that. I'm so sorry.
• 25:09
  Now at Lowe's, faster quotes start at the Lowe's Pro Desk. Got a material list handwritten on a sticky note or saved as a photo? Perfect. Bring it to us and get a quote in minutes. And if you don't see what you need on the shelf, we'll help you get it. You can access thousands of products beyond what's available in-store or on Lowe's.com right from the Lowe's Pro Desk. Build quotes faster and source the materials you need to keep your jobs moving. Just like that at Lowe's.
• 25:39
  I didn't know that you went through all this. Yeah. And my teachers would prompt me, right? They would say, there's more there. And I go, no, I don't think, I think you're like trying to extract something out of me that doesn't exist. And they're like, no, there's more there. And their prompting and their sentence stems and their gentle nudges, implicit memory popped up.
• 25:59
  We're not going to get off this podcast till we start talking about how we treat it, how we regulate the nervous system. But this is what I see a lot. It drives me insane. We keep, I see people chasing chaos and calling it chemistry. Yeah. I was the worst. I wouldn't chase the chaos. I would create it and be like, this is what love meant to me. Yeah. Would you take the chaos stick and stir it a little bit? Oh, I was the, I would drop the fire or the gas out of it. It's too boring, right?
• 26:28
  You know, if anybody was normal, yeah, it was boring. It's boring. You're too boring for me. You're too boring. There's no, what do they call it? Passion. Chemistry, passion, intensity, excitement, right? So if your nervous system is wired for unpredictability from an early age and inconsistency, chaos is so exciting. Chaos is intensity. And if it's not there...
• 26:51
  I'm going to create it. You're going to create it, right? And so that sort of, you want to call it toxic, you want to call it passion, you want to call it, so people mistake chemistry, attraction, intensity with passion, excitement, and then when they are met with an emotionally secure, stable, emotionally available person that is a little bit more even keel, a little more regulated, it's like, what do I do with this?
• 27:18
  I had Stefan speaks on, who you probably know from here, and he talked about chemistry. He had a great definition of true chemistry. Do you have one? Like real true chemistry? Like healthy, healed. Healthy, healed chemistry is- Looks like this. Looks like two people that already belong to themselves first.
• 27:41
  Because you have to belong to yourself first. Two holes. Two holes, right? That create an interdependent relationship. So, right? Like, this is codependent. I don't know where you begin and I end. We're so enmeshed. Oh, if you guys are watching this on Spotify or YouTube. We are enmeshed. I don't know where you begin and I end. My sense of self is merged with you. Oh.
• 28:01
  And so I'm losing myself in you. As we start to become healthier and more whole, now there's space for me or that person and their sense of self and their belonging to their self, their sense of autonomy, their own self-identity construction. Who am I without this person? Who am I individually? People fall in love with people in a healthy, interdependent way in their I, not in their we. Right.
• 28:29
  So you're telling me that that whole she completes me thing is bullshit. Yeah. It's unhealthy. Yeah. I think early love, early love is very codependent love. That's normal. It's your first attachment, your dopamine, you got oxytocin going on. You're really wanting to merge. That's normal.
• 28:49
  But as you get older and you recognize that there is this autonomous individual and there's another autonomous individual. I belong to myself. I know my strengths, my weaknesses. You don't have to be fully healed. That's the other thing. People are like, we are all works in progress and masterpieces at the same time. We are all trying to complete our childhood with a romantic partner.
• 29:15
  We're trying to complete the childhood, but we end up picking the one that hurts us the most. Yeah. Because we're trying to recreate a more ideal. We think that if I can. So we usually pick a partner that has similar and dissimilar characteristics to our primary caregivers. And so we think we're going to get it right this time. Right? So that's that chemistry. This is all happening subconsciously. It's all happening subconsciously. Oh, no, no, no. Mirror neurons. You know, mirror neurons are already picking up cues of if I like you or not. Right.
• 29:44
  So this is why when you walk into a party, there's hundreds of people in there and you'll pick the one that's the wrong one for you. But you'll say, oh my God, there's so much chemistry. Yeah. They were so in tune with me. Totally. Because it feels familiar. So the neurons are going around. The neurons are going on. The mirror neurons are going. There's a moment and it searches your internal database and it goes, when else have I felt like this before? When else have I experienced this before? Feels like home. And in that moment, it goes, oh, but it's all happening in a millisecond.
• 30:14
  And it's like I like that person. I feel connected to that person. I'm vibing with that person. Oh my God. I can't stop thinking about them. So it's very, very interesting because like I had a client who thought she was marrying opposite. She had an alcoholic father.
• 30:32
  And he was neglectful because he was in a relationship with something else, which is alcohol, right? So he can't possibly be available to her. He tried his best. So she marries this guy. About a year, he doesn't drink alcohol. He doesn't gamble. By all accounts, she thinks she chose different. But her neurons knew better. They caught on mannerisms. They saw behavioral traits. Meanwhile, he just stopped drinking. He was an alcoholic and a gambling addict.
• 30:57
  She found out a year later. Oh. So she didn't tell him he was, he didn't say he was in recovery or equipment? Nothing, nothing. How does that not come up? Young.
• 31:07
  But they thought it was fate. So until you make the unconscious conscious, you're going to call it fate chemistry, attraction. You're going to mistake intensity. But your mirror neurons are picking up on things that your body, your mirror neurons, neuroscience, your relational brain, your embodied brain are already saying, I like you. And it wants familiar, not safe. Familiar means safe. I'm going to tell you something funny. Yeah. Is...
• 31:36
  So when I started healing, anytime I liked somebody when I started healing, I would know they weren't for me. So I would use the opposite. I would do the opposite. If I thought somebody was really boring, I'm like, oh, let's talk about it. I'm going to figure this out because you're more healthy for me. Yes. And I'm going to train my nervous system to accept this because this is stable.
• 31:56
  Yeah. But there's a middle ground. There's a middle path. Heal more. Yes. Actually, this is what I tell everybody. Anybody that's coming out of a relationship, I say, take six months and be alone. Yeah. No dating, no cook-ups, nothing. Just get to know yourself and nobody can do it. Six months. I know.
• 32:17
  Right back, I found the one. Or worse yet, oh, I went on a couple of dates. What did I just tell you to do? Don't go, nothing. You can go out with your friends, no dates. No, just six months. Because people are drugs. I'm a drug. Yeah, people are drugs. We induce oxytocin, dopamine, feel-good chemicals. We get high through people.
• 32:45
  All right, I got a couple more things I want to talk about real quick, and then we're going to talk about the healing. Of course. So stay with me, people. We've all heard trauma bond, trauma response. Talk about that. Tell us what's a trauma response and then a trauma bond, and what are some early signs someone is stuck in them?
• 33:06
  Yeah. Trauma responses are not – I think a lot of people think they're these dramatic things. They can be, but they can also be micro body movements, micro reflexes, me reacting to you. I'm not actually reacting to you. I'm reacting to –
• 33:27
  A trauma. A trauma. I'm reacting. You behaved in a way that reminded me of something else where I felt dismissed or I felt neglected and now all of a sudden I'm mad at you or I'm resentful at you or you made me feel small or I felt dismissed. That is an expression of trauma and when my reaction is disproportionate to the context of what's going on.
• 33:51
  So I grew up a child where there was no food in the house. And I was starving all the time. To this day, if I ever talk to my parents, which I don't, I would ask them, how did you think I ate?
• 34:03
  They didn't even care. So I still have a trauma response. And you guys will call it they're just hungry, hangry. Yeah. But mine is way over the top. Yeah. That's the one thing I can't, I haven't been able to heal just yet. So that's a trauma reaction. Absolutely. If I'm hungry. Absolutely. And somebody looks at me wrong. I'm like, I gotta eat. Yeah. Because it's reminding you of an unmet need.
• 34:28
  It was an unmet need. You know, you have the basic need for food, safety, shelter, belonging, right? Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? And scarcity mindset around food. So your body automatically cues up. It tenses up. It gets – so people can get hangry, but yours is a trauma response. Oh, mine is way beyond hangry. It's scarcity. Right.
• 34:53
  Because you had a very early, implicit, unmet need. Yeah. I had to go to the corner store and steal food as a young boy. That's how I made it. That's why I'm a hustler. Yeah. That's why I work so hard. So talk to me about trauma bonds. Because we see that.
• 35:08
  A lot. Oh my god, yes. One of the big questions I like to ask people when they're having difficulty getting out of a relationship that they know is unhealthy for them or is not serving them or is creating chaos in their life, I say, what do you like about them?
• 35:25
  And the common thread that I see is they can't tell me that like exactly. I'm like, is he a nice, is she or he a nice person? Are you guys compatible? Do you love that they're thoughtful about something that they do for you? And the common thread is that they can't really tell me exactly. They can't pinpoint these qualities that they like about that person. But it feels like death to be apart from them.
• 35:56
  And they have that visceral reaction, so they think that they're meant to be with them. So they keep going back. And so, and they're like, and it's interesting because they are intelligent and wise and they have these adult developed versions of them. But they revert back to a younger part. They revert back to a younger part of themselves and they are in that trauma bond and it feels like absolute pure terror
• 36:23
  both at times in the relationship and they can't get away from it. They keep going back. So I see this a lot. What's what is the besides the obvious of just take six months and get away? How to how do you treat if I came up to you and I and you just diagnosed trauma, how what how are you going to keep them? How are you going to heal them?
• 36:43
  Oh God, I've had so many of them. And so I've had a lot, when I say so many of them, so many, I've been blessed to work with amazing, amazing people that have ended up finding me. And they've ended up with narcissistic partners. They've ended up with, to the point where their partners would get them arrested.
• 37:01
  And then they would come back together with them to the part where their partners would get physical with them. And they were these successful, high-functioning women or men. And then their private life in their – you know, was just absolute chaos. And they're like, I don't know how to stop. I'm addicted.
• 37:22
  And so it was a reenactment of their trauma that kept happening over and over again. They were literally addicted to the person. They were addicted to that person. And so by training them slowly, we can't just break it apart. So the work that I do with them is to be with the sensation –
• 37:43
  I meet them with the sensation. A therapist and a coach and even a sponsor ends up becoming an instrument of neuroplasticity change. So me holding the sensation with that person and without shame, without judgment –
• 38:03
  And giving her or him an emotional experience of acceptance and understanding and no judgment, I'm here. I will help you through this. We will slowly learn more nervous system regulation. We will slowly together reattune and rewire what feels safe to your nervous system. And I swear to God,
• 38:28
  Little by little, all of a sudden, little by little, they start pulling away. I've seen it so many times. And then they're like, Essen, you were right. I'm done. I don't know what it was. I'm done. How do you keep a straight face when they come back and be like, I saw him? Like...
• 38:44
  What a slap. You know, and I... So I'm like, I'm definitely not a blank slate therapist. I'm very like, you know, I'm not. No. No, you know, I'm very like, you know, I have a lot of like co-workers and so many therapist friends that are so wonderful and they're very like...
• 39:00
  stoic and very, you know, and I'm like with you. I'm with you, right? I'm in the experience. I'm in that moment. I am attuned to you and I'm authentic in my expression to you. I'm not editing because the relationship is...
• 39:19
  A vehicle for transformation and I know that. The vehicle, the relationship is the vehicle for transformation. So I'm taking that in and I'm not like, oh my God, you're back together with him or her again. How many times do we have to go over this? That's met with shame. That's me not being compassionate. It takes what it takes, okay? They're basically sitting on a slot machine.
• 39:44
  And they are – they're sitting on a slot machine and they are waiting for what's called intermittent reinforcement. They keep getting dings. They get these highs. The highs are so high and the lows are so low that their body is seeking that high again so that they can get that dopamine hit. By all accounts, everyone around them is like, yo, you've been sitting at that slot machine for a very long time and it hasn't hit.
• 40:06
  The problem is it just hits, it gets real, real, real close. You see the three cherries and you're like, oh, I just missed it. He's changing. He showed effort. She's changing. She showed effort. I like how you corrected yourself. He, she. Yeah. It's not just he. No, it's universal, right? And so there's micro moments and bread crumbing and intermittent, it's called intermittent reinforcement that they keep you hooked. So they're giving you little doses of the, they're giving you the high.
• 40:34
  God, the makeup sex is so good. And, you know, now they're in again. And now they're giving you attention. And then they pull it back away. Or they're abusive. Or they're narcissistic. Or they devalue you. Right? They move from valuing to devaluing. The heart beats the brain. Yep. Essin has over 12 years of experience doing this. She blends cutting-edge clinical tools with a couple things I've never heard of. So I'm going to ask you this. CBT. CBT.
• 41:02
  brain spotting, IFS, and polyvagal theory. Yeah, polyvagal theory. Tell me about this polyvagal theory. I've never heard about this. And it's very rare that I don't... I've read all about it. What is it? It's basically nervous system regulation work. So you led right into that, right? So Stephen Porges is like a neuroscientist and he created...
• 41:23
  this model and framework and ideology for nervous system regulation to explain what, in fancy terms, is our autonomic nervous system, the ANS. And Deb Dana is a clinician that began working closely with him, and she translated his neuroscience into clinical practical application.
• 41:46
  So I'm reading a book about this right now. Anchored. She wrote the book Anchored. So polyvagal is basically how to work with your nervous system and befriend your nervous system. So how do you do it? Right. So on a more simplistic term.
• 42:02
  The way that he describes it is that we all have a nervous system, obviously, which is called the autonomic nervous system. And it's separated into three parts just to keep it simple. It's on a hierarchical ladder. So on the bottom is dorsal. That means evolutionary-wise. That was the first part that got developed. Dorsal shutdown.
• 42:23
  So there's two different dorsals though. There's the good shutdown. You want to shut down so you can rest and digest and sleep. But then there's the burnout shutdown. You're overproductive and you crashed or you did way too much and now you are basically – I don't have anything to give to anybody. I don't have any –
• 42:42
  Social engagement. I don't want any more energetic exchanges. I need to go to bed. I need to rest. I need to – your body is telling you, I'm going to shut you down because you're not shutting yourself down. It's a self-preservation protective mechanism. Okay.
• 42:57
  So that's evolutionary that first got developed. And so it's called the autonomic ladder as he describes it. And so the next one is the sympathetic, which we've heard of, the sympathetic nervous system, right? The sympathetic nervous system is fight, flight, freeze, fawn, and appeasement. People don't always talk about appeasement. That's people pleasing, right?
• 43:20
  Appeasement is a form of people pleasing, but it's sort of – people used to say Stockholm Syndrome, right? And so they changed Stockholm Syndrome to appeasement, that they're not actually trauma bonded or actually in love with the captor or the person who perpetrated them. They're appeasing them.
• 43:38
  To stay safe. So appeasement is a form of fawning, but polyvagal theory added that fifth element. So they brought that and he also coined neuroception. Have you heard of neuroception? So neuroception is what we all have. We scan if you're safe or not safe to me.
• 43:59
  It's scanning if I want to get close to you or not. So it's our neuroception. It's our built-in threat detector. It's our built-in surveillance system. And it's our internal bodyguard.
• 44:11
  So is this – are we still part of the sympathetic? We're still part of it. We're still part of it. So we're dorsal sympathetic. I'm guessing – Neuroception is active and sympathetic. I'm guessing the next one is parasympathetic? So the next one is called ventral vagal. That's where the vagus nerve comes in, but it's parasympathetic, right? Okay. But in the model of polyvagal theory, they just call it ventral vagal. And what that means is that is the most regulated you are.
• 44:34
  Now, everybody thinks that a regulated nervous system is I'm zen and I'm chill and all I do is nothing bothers me. I don't get activated. It's impossible, isn't it? No. A regulated nervous system that is in ventral, ventral vagal, which is at the top of the autonomic ladder, we have a natural longing to be in there as humans. Uh-huh.
• 44:54
  is the most regulated, most flexible, most adaptable when our social engagement system turns on, our most playful, our most spontaneous, the one where we feel safer, safest, most comfortable in. Not zen and chill.
• 45:12
  Is there any more ladders? That's it. Those are just the four. So yeah. Well, people move between them. You're always in a blended state. You never stay in one state. So you need sympathetic because it demands you to do things. Right. So the sympathetic is good and bad. So it's when it turns on you.
• 45:30
  So you need sympathetic to be focused, to be in this conversation with me. In order for us to engage, we have to have our sympathetic system turned on to drive, to focus, things that demand our attention. Sympathetic gone wrong is when you stay in sympathetic too long and you don't go into rest and digest. You don't go into the ventral. You're living in that state of sympathetic. I was going to imagine that there's a certain –
• 45:57
  population of unhealed people that never get into the ventral right yeah they never they just live they might like have a little bit of a glimpse inside of it and they might but they're like basically operating high functioners overachievers uh people who have unhealed trauma unresolved pain what does that look like for every day for the audience because that's gonna be guys i hate to tell you this it's gonna be a lot of you but what does that look like and they have no clue
• 46:24
  Okay, so let's talk about it first somatically. What does somatic mean? What do I feel in my body? I'm tensed up. I may have sort of a tightness in my chest. I may be like, I'm on high alert, right? And I'm running through cortisol and adrenaline. I don't really slow down. I don't have moments of pause. I don't have moments of...
• 46:47
  slowing down. I'm go, go, go, do, do, do, and I'm afraid. Wait a minute. You're describing me now. Yeah, yeah. I thought I was doing the work. No, but that's still, it's okay to be in sympathetic. But so if I was to give you a metaphor for everybody, so it's a little easier. If you're riding a bike and you're pedaling and you want to get somewhere, right? Right. And you have goals and you have dreams and you have desires and I want you to achieve those desires and I want you to have those goals. But do you ever step off the bike?
• 47:14
  Oh, I have to because I crash. So you have to step off the bike and then engage in a parasympathetic activity. So what is a parasympathetic activity? Rhythm creates regulation. Rhythm creates regulation. Do you move?
• 47:31
  Do you dance? Do you do some somatic release? Are you playful? Do you do some yoga? Do you work out? Never. But, right, intention matters. People talk about attention deficit. I talk about intention deficit.
• 47:46
  what is the intention behind why you're doing what you're doing? I want some working out and movement in a parasympathetic state that is not agenda-driven. That is just, I'm going to do yoga just to go do yoga. So would that be like this morning I woke up and I just had to see the sunrise? Yes. I just want to see the sunrise. That's wonderful. Okay. That's wonderful. I used to never do that. You slow down, you pause, and you co-regulate it with nature. Wait a minute.
• 48:11
  Does everybody struggle with relationships, but we all crave relationships? Why are they so damn hard? Why is that? That seems like an oxymoron. We crave love because we are wired to come here to love and be loved. And we have a natural relationship.
• 48:26
  birthright to have love, safety, belonging, and that means to love and be loved. And so regardless of how many times we get hurt, regardless of all the heartbreak songs, I mean, some of the most beautiful art and music is made up of that, right? What I just realized, yes, of course. But what I realized is we will go back into a relationship, but we won't go back into a work relationship.
• 48:51
  or something that's actually good. But we will jump right back to that relationship. The other thing that hurt us, we got fired from a job, or we were skateboarding, we fell on our face, riding our bike. You'll never do that again.
• 49:04
  But you'll jump right back on that relationship. Because, you know, it's kind of like ain't nothing like heartbreak. There is nothing that because we're wired for connection and to love and be loved, that is the most primal mammalian relationship.
• 49:21
  instinctual desire for us and we will go back to that over and over again over anything because nothing else will give us the highest of highs the lowest of lows safety connection belonging it's a lot easier because you don't have the same emotional connection to a job you don't you're not as intimate right there's intimacy in there you're exchanging
• 49:50
  So in a romantic relationship, you have intimacy. You have vulnerability. You have sexual intimacy. It's different than just intimacy. You have – you come alive. I love how your facial expressions – hold on. Before I say this, there's a little thing that I learned at a –
• 50:11
  at a healing event that I was at. Intimacy is into me I see. I love that. It's so beautiful. Because it's true, you're reflecting who you are. Into me I see, yeah. Because for the longest time I couldn't be vulnerable. I wouldn't tell anybody what I was thinking. Because if I tell you what I'm thinking, what I was thinking, then you'll leave. Right, if you really knew, right? If you really knew who I was, if you really knew. I was disgusting though.
• 50:33
  I'll be honest with you. I was a pig. You know, okay. But then it's like that was a part of you that showed up, right? There's also so many other parts of you. You're the sum of the total. You're not just one part. You're definitely speaking from a therapist. Thank you. But no. So one part consumed you. One part consumed you. One part took over and it dominated for that time period. That doesn't mean that that's your core essence of who you are. So it wasn't even close to who I was? Yeah. Yeah.
• 51:00
  Have you found love? Many times. I mean, now. Currently dating. So we shall see. I'd imagine it's kind of hard for someone to date you. And I mean hard. I've been told that many times.
• 51:17
  We're going to be friends now that I'm down here. Yeah, totally. I love it because I want to hear that. And that's a red flag right away. Like, because they're just, they have to do the work. You have to be doing the work and you have to be working on yourself. And I left a relationship with a wonderful man that I thought I was going to marry because there he was refused to do the work. And so the version of himself that he would have had to be to step up in order to meet me.
• 51:45
  was too hard. And that's okay. That's okay. He was the one. And it was probably one of the most painful, excruciating experiences of my life. Did it make you feel that you weren't good enough? At that time, yeah. But you know what it was?
• 52:01
  He wasn't. Don't take it personal. It's him. No. Because of him, I grew the most I had ever grown and healed parts of myself that I didn't even know were unhealed. He highlighted the areas of me. He was one of my best teachers. He highlighted the areas of me that I didn't even know needed healing.
• 52:19
  It's what happened to me. So beautiful. And, and, and. Do you hear that, guys? I remember being like, I could do without this lesson. You know, I could. And I was like, no, I can honestly tell you now, in hindsight, right? We often, whatever your belief system is, right? Whether you're spiritual or you believe in a higher power. I remember what I was asking for was confidence and to be able to stand on my own two feet
• 52:45
  where I wasn't dependent on anything or anyone outside of myself to define me, that I could stand alone and then I could from there be authentically me and connect. And then all of a sudden things fell away.
• 53:01
  And I was like, that's not what I was asking for. And so it was, no, I'm going to need you to go through these things in order to build what you're asking for. I'm going to strip everything that you've identified yourself with. So I was the table and all of these things were the legs that were holding me up and I didn't even know it.
• 53:21
  the best friend, the boyfriend, the job, the, you know, I thought by all means I was, you know, but what I didn't realize was I was people pleasing, I was editing, I was managing, I was having trauma reactions. And so when, what happens when all those things went away? I had to be, I was, I was now I was really- The man who said the love that person? Yep. And then I got the confidence because I was like, oh my God, if I could get through this,
• 53:50
  Wow, now I can help other people get through it, first of all. And second of all, now I actually am the most authentic version of myself than I've ever been. I wasn't. I wasn't. I thought I was. I was like, I'm a great friend. I'm an amazing girlfriend. No, I was a codependent, people-pleasing, self-editing, overachieving, overcompensating, overidentified with you person.
• 54:20
  In order to, I saw myself through you. I just came up with the name of your new book. Yeah, tell me. I am Essin. Yeah. Because that's who you are. Yeah. You're none of those things. And that's when you know you've really healed, where you're just you. And you're okay with that. Yeah. And I love, I look in the mirror and I love why I'm. Isn't it such a magical feeling? Yeah.
• 54:41
  And remember, we're never going to always be regulated. We're never going to always feel, you know, it's what you feel most of the time. Yeah. Our triggers are still going to get triggered. Activated. You're still going to have things. You're going to have issues. But your triggers are your responsibility, not somebody else's. So your private practice is eternal wellness counseling. You have free downloadable resources, including a guide on nervous system regulation and self-exploration tools. How do they get to that?
• 55:09
  So it's on eternalwellnesscounseling.com. Okay. And so it should be in there. There's links in there. There's also on my social media, on my Instagram page, EssinPenarly underscore LCSW. And in there, there are links. And then there's a post that talks about parts work. And if you type awareness into that post, so I don't know if we could link that or whatever. Yeah, we'll link it. Yeah. And then you can download that free guide in there.
• 55:35
  So we have a little fun thing. And please, you're going to have to. We didn't. I didn't get through it. I get it. I know. You're going to have to come back when the book comes out and we'll hit the other things. We're going to do a rapid fire for fun because I love doing these. Let's let's let's get the world introduced to you. So rapid fire question. Just whatever comes to your mind. There's no right. There's no wrong. One word your nervous system hates. Relax. Attachment style. You had to outgrow.
• 56:05
  That I've outgrown? Yep. Anxious attachment. I knew it. You were anxious. A healing tool you once judged, but now swear by. Healing tool I once judged, but now swear by.
• 56:23
  I think it's IFS. We didn't get into that. I want to know what it is. It's parts work. We could simplify it. Mine would have been meditation. Yeah. I live in Niamh. I would have been meditation. And meditation is amazing, but meditation changes an emotional state. It doesn't change the wiring. We're going to talk to that after we hit number one. Best place on earth to reset your nervous system.
• 56:47
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• 57:20
  Best place on earth for me? For you. On the hot yoga mat. One word you'd tattoo on your arm. It's gonna sound so corny, but amor fati. What is it? Amor fati. What does it mean? To love the life that you're given as if you chose it, no matter what happens. No matter what you experience. Amor fati. Yeah. Beautiful. What emotion shows up in your body first?
• 57:50
  Gratitude. Oh, mine is still angry. I'm hungry, baby. Yeah. Healed means. My response time to things that used to activate me that would take me has decreased. My basically, so I'm going to say this.
• 58:15
  There's no such thing as fully healed. Everybody's on a healing journey, and there are people that are more healed than others because they've made more of the unconscious conscious. But when you're on the healing path and you're in your healing journey and you've healed a lot of things, because you do heal a lot of things. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 58:34
  You are less reactive. You have more ability to pause between stimulus and response. There's that power of the pause? The power of the pause. And things that used to throw you into a spiral and would take you maybe three weeks to get over, now you can get through it in 24 hours. I just say a peaceful heart. Yeah. Peace. Peace. Yep. Word that clients say most often in your sessions. I don't feel chosen.
• 59:04
  Oh. Most common lie people tell themselves. Most common lie people tell themselves. I'm fine. Oh. By the way...
• 59:20
  When people say that you can never be fully healed, I see them use that as a crutch. Yeah, that's not what I mean by that. But don't... Guys, I want to clarify that. I meant to say that. Don't use that as a crutch. Just because it's a... You can never get the horizon, but you're going to chase it. No, you can heal a lot of things. But a fully healed person would be a perfect person. And that's obviously...
• 59:40
  If you say that, you need more work. I'm sorry. Right, right. Yeah. I've heard it from some people that I've coached. I'm like, hey. I also see people sort of like spiritual narcissism or like, you know, healed narcissism where they're at this place where they're just like, oh, that person has so much work to do and they're so unhealed. When you're more healed, when you're more healed, you're in your own lane. Yeah.
• 1:00:04
  You know what I mean? Your emotional intelligence is high enough to understand that they probably have more work to do, but it's not your place to decide for them. I'm very certain I just came out of that. Yeah, that's beautiful. But I used to say it was from, I just want everybody to be happy like me. Yeah, but the more you heal, right? I think what you're saying is the more you heal, the more you see the unhealed pain in others. Song that instantly calms your nervous system.
• 1:00:31
  You know what? Right. I'm going to say two. I know I'm not allowed to, but. No, go ahead. Right now, I have no idea why, but Taylor Swift's father figure. Oh. Because I really love George Michael's father figure. So there's some sort of mental correlation there for me. Okay. And Tyler Water. Never heard. So good. Interesting. It's like being fluid.
• 1:00:54
  And it talks about it's this idea of just shapelessness and kind of taking on the form. Like, you know, how like water goes into a cup and it just takes the form of what it is being more fluid. The depth of you is amazing. I love it. I can't wait to be friends with you. Dream guest to co-facilitate a workshop with.
• 1:01:11
  Besides me, of course. Of course. I mean, literally, through this, I'm like, I would love to do something with you and bring Jason here. We will. Oh, my God. I promise I will. I'll do that for other people. I'm going to honestly say – I'm honestly going to truly say definitely you. There's an authenticity. There's a real – Thank you. I received that. There's a real lived textured experience. There's a –
• 1:01:35
  a comfortability with this, there is a comfortability and visibility, which I really love about you. And an emotional intelligence and a desire and a curiosity for continuing to learn. Just wanna know, I'ma learn it all. And then I'm gonna probably say, I just love Deb Dana. That sounds great. I'm gonna get this book and I'll show you. A green flag you never ignore now.
• 1:02:04
  thoughtfulness like going out of their going out of their way to remember something that I said because I try to do that and so somebody going out of their way to remember I love that you know makes me feel so special right the last thing that made you cry oh my god I cry all the time I'm a very emotional person and I love that about myself I used to
• 1:02:25
  I'm more emotional as I've healed. I find myself crying for gratitude. I'm always – I'm very moved and touched very easily. And I love poetry and poetic things and dancing and music. And so the last time I cried, I think it was Normal People with Paul Mescal and
• 1:02:51
  No, actually, it was not the last time. I did cry, though, for that. That was a movie about love that was, like, heart-wrenching, but very poignant. But the last time I cried, actually, was last night on the phone with my dad because we were – I'm going to cry now. One of my best friends, but supporting my dream. And he said to me that –
• 1:03:17
  you're coming full circle because when you were a little girl, I used to bring you to the bookstore. He's like, and you used to read the books before the author could come up with a new book. And now you're doing that.
• 1:03:34
  I'm just going to end it on that. You're beautiful. Thank you so much for being here. I love you. And I'm so grateful to call you friend. Guys, I know I don't need to tell you to share this one. We're going to have her back again when her book comes out. This was beautiful. This is the story of heart and life. Thank you guys for listening.
• 1:03:52
  Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with, delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit TrustNTM.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.