Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Lawyer Who Robbed a Bank | Graeme Alford

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The Lawyer Who Robbed a Bank | Graeme Alford · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm your host
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand Most of the career criminals I've known have
0:20
Speaker 2: been driven by their deadly sins to desperate and ultimately
0:23
Speaker 2: self destructive acts. The most powerful drivers have been alcohol, gambling,
0:28
Speaker 2: and drugs in that order.
0:30
Speaker 3: A Melbourne criminal lawyer has been charged with raiding his
0:33
Speaker 3: client trust fund to bankroll a gambling and drinking habit.
0:37
Speaker 3: The Law Institute has referred the matter to the Legal
0:40
Speaker 3: Services Commissioner.
0:42
Speaker 2: These addictions have laid low many a man and woman
0:45
Speaker 2: I've known, but rarely have I seen a penthouse to
0:48
Speaker 2: the shithouse story like the what I'm telling today, And
0:51
Speaker 2: even more rare, this man made it back to the penthouse.
0:55
Speaker 4: The corporate speaking circuit is booming and no one is
0:58
Speaker 4: riding the wave harder than Melbourne promoter Graham Alford.
1:03
Speaker 2: Graham Alford blew a career in the law after ripping
1:06
Speaker 2: off his trust fund to feed a gambling and booze habit.
1:09
Speaker 2: Jail followed, but he wasn't finished yet. He threw on
1:12
Speaker 2: one of the most inept armed robberies of all time
1:16
Speaker 2: to earn himself a second lagging.
1:18
Speaker 4: Police are investigating an armed robbery on Melbourne's Chapel Street
1:22
Speaker 4: in which a lone offender reportedly dropped his weapon during
1:25
Speaker 4: the hold up and fled the scene empty handed. Detectives
1:29
Speaker 4: say the bungled robbery is among the most disorganized they
1:33
Speaker 4: have encountered.
1:35
Speaker 1: In jail.
1:36
Speaker 2: He decided enough was enough and changed his heart and
1:40
Speaker 2: his life.
1:41
Speaker 1: And he's in the real crime studio.
1:43
Speaker 2: Tell us how he became a master not of the
1:45
Speaker 2: criminal arts, but of his own destiny.
1:49
Speaker 1: Can they great? Good? I Adam, how are you very well? Thanks? Mate?
1:54
Speaker 1: How did this begin?
1:56
Speaker 2: I mean you as I say, I think addictions are
1:58
Speaker 2: often the driver for crime.
2:01
Speaker 1: You didn't think he had a problem. No mom owned pubs,
2:04
Speaker 1: So I was brought up in a drinking culture. Drinking
2:07
Speaker 1: was part of normal life. What I didn't understand was
2:10
Speaker 1: that I made a serious addiction to alcohol. I've got
2:13
Speaker 1: one of those addictive personalities where anything I do it's
2:17
Speaker 1: full bore.
2:18
Speaker 2: Do you give me a bile of cash in notes?
2:20
Speaker 2: I eat the bile and go and buy another pack.
2:22
Speaker 1: So drinking, you know, I just drank copiously and didn't
2:26
Speaker 1: all start out bad. I had a lot of good
2:27
Speaker 1: times on it. And I love gambling, so combine here
2:31
Speaker 1: what kind of gambling. In the beginning, it was race horses,
2:35
Speaker 1: and then it was the illegal two up and the
2:37
Speaker 1: back of our game in some guilda. So it just fed.
2:41
Speaker 1: And so you combine heavy drinking with buying slow race horses.
2:45
Speaker 1: It didn't end well.
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Speaker 2: My grandfather used to say he'd have been a billionaire
2:48
Speaker 2: were it not for slow horses and fast women.
2:51
Speaker 1: At least you didn't other women. They weren't causing you
2:53
Speaker 1: a problem.
2:54
Speaker 2: But one thing I also noticed in your story, because
2:56
Speaker 2: you now talk about you've written books, you've lectured on
2:59
Speaker 2: this idea of discipline and doing things the hard way,
3:02
Speaker 2: you developed a skill for shortcutting That also came out
3:08
Speaker 2: when you were studying law. You weren't prepared to do
3:11
Speaker 2: it the long way. You found a shortcut through it.
3:14
Speaker 2: I've always looked for the quickest way. Where I'm playing golf,
3:16
Speaker 2: what's the quickest way from the green to the next.
3:18
Speaker 1: Tea, So you create a path. All my life I
3:22
Speaker 1: was looking, and I still do look for what's the
3:25
Speaker 1: quickest way to the destination. And so we're going back
3:29
Speaker 1: to nine point eighty two, when I was in jail
3:30
Speaker 1: over the arm robbery.
3:32
Speaker 2: I said, I've got to get up here. This is
3:34
Speaker 2: not a normal career path for a lawyer.
3:37
Speaker 1: And I had a psychological test done on me by
3:39
Speaker 1: being Joblin clinical.
3:41
Speaker 2: Psychologist, famous forensic psychologists.
3:43
Speaker 1: Now, at the end of the test, you'd gram you've
3:45
Speaker 1: got brain damage. You've lost forty points off your IQ
3:48
Speaker 1: in the areas of memory and concentration. And when I
3:52
Speaker 1: got the report, I read it and I could relate
3:55
Speaker 1: to it because I could actually be speaking to you
3:58
Speaker 1: and I just go blank, and I have those really
4:01
Speaker 1: brief short term memory losses. So I decided to embark
4:05
Speaker 1: on a program of training my brain. So I do
4:09
Speaker 1: brain training every day. I've done it for forty three
4:11
Speaker 1: years now, do at least an hour a day in
4:14
Speaker 1: five and ten minute blocks. And I developed what I
4:17
Speaker 1: called a mental toughness program because I knew when I
4:19
Speaker 1: got out I was going to have a lot of hurdles.
4:22
Speaker 1: You know, I destroyed my reputation three times. So I've been.
4:28
Speaker 2: Doing the mental toughness exercise ever since, which gave me
4:32
Speaker 2: the resilience when I've had set backs, and I still
4:35
Speaker 2: get them to this day. Everyone does, but it's worked
4:39
Speaker 2: well for me. Let's roll back a bit. Though you're
4:43
Speaker 2: a lawyer position of trust running a trust fund, these
4:47
Speaker 2: things often happen little by little, using it like a
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Speaker 2: check account rather than other people's money.
4:54
Speaker 1: Tell me how you got into that habit. What happened
4:58
Speaker 1: was I was at the bar, so I was embarrassed
5:00
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, and I was coming back
5:01
Speaker 1: from an five case in Winchelsea, and I stopped bar
5:05
Speaker 1: and hotel for a drink and got talking to these
5:07
Speaker 1: two guys. And one of them happened to be the
5:09
Speaker 1: head of the planters and dockers in Geelong, Bat Collen.
5:12
Speaker 1: And half an hour later I've given him a card
5:15
Speaker 1: and he said, look, compet him and boys get into trouble.
5:16
Speaker 1: I'll give you a call and I'll pay for it.
5:19
Speaker 1: So you ring me a couple of weeks later he
5:20
Speaker 1: So I got a case at Geelong. Now, normally at
5:23
Speaker 1: the bar in those days you had to get a
5:24
Speaker 1: solicitor a brief you. But I thought, no, I'll just
5:27
Speaker 1: do this myself, and so I went down, won the case,
5:31
Speaker 1: went back to the pub afterwards, met Pat. He paid
5:33
Speaker 1: me and I thought, you know what, I'm going to
5:36
Speaker 1: go back into practice as a criminal solicitor where you
5:39
Speaker 1: can appear in court anyway in Australia or in Victoria.
5:42
Speaker 1: So that's how it all started, and it didn't take
5:45
Speaker 1: long because once you make yourself available to do bail
5:48
Speaker 1: applications at four in the morning, and you've got justice
5:51
Speaker 1: of the piece, so you can sling to get bail.
5:54
Speaker 1: The phone number became quite prevalent with a lot of
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Speaker 1: the guys in the underworld, and in those days armed
6:00
Speaker 1: robberies of banks and pay rolls and building societies, it
6:04
Speaker 1: was almost every day. So within six or nine months
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Speaker 1: I was starting to build a really strong clientele of
6:13
Speaker 1: underworld people, painters and doggers and working here and down
6:17
Speaker 1: at freight bases. And then I realized that I didn't
6:21
Speaker 1: want to wait ten years to be the next Frank
6:23
Speaker 1: Golballey or the next Tario O'Brien. I was going to
6:26
Speaker 1: do it in two or three. So I started drinking
6:28
Speaker 1: with them, going to the two up with them, playing
6:31
Speaker 1: cards with them, and the end result was inevitable. So
6:35
Speaker 1: coming back to my trust account, gambling and drinking, it
6:38
Speaker 1: didn't matter how much I heard, I kept spending it more.
6:42
Speaker 1: And then I started cleaning money for some of the
6:44
Speaker 1: guys who were dealing and payrolls and whatever.
6:47
Speaker 2: So how did you feel about that You're obviously overstepping
6:51
Speaker 2: your moral boundaries. Were there moments of regret and fear
6:55
Speaker 2: that you were diminishing yourself? I mean, I'm sure your
6:58
Speaker 2: mom and dad didn't want you to do this. You know,
7:00
Speaker 2: how did you feel on the way through was these
7:01
Speaker 2: things were happening.
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Speaker 1: It's interesting because the journey that alcohol took me on
7:06
Speaker 1: was I became delusional, so I didn't see it the
7:11
Speaker 1: way I would now. I looked at it as you know,
7:14
Speaker 1: my destination was to become the number one criminal lawyer
7:16
Speaker 1: in Melbourne. This is what you did. Other lawyers weren't
7:19
Speaker 1: doing it, so I was going to go past them,
7:22
Speaker 1: and it wasn't. I remember nineteen eighty two, ars after
7:25
Speaker 1: rested over the bank robbery, and the next day I
7:27
Speaker 1: was out of Pincridge and I remember sitting on the
7:30
Speaker 1: seat in the remand yard by the water fountain. I
7:34
Speaker 1: looked at what had happened the previous day, and I
7:36
Speaker 1: had broken ribs and whatever, and I'm sitting now and
7:38
Speaker 1: I'm going it was almost like I'd walked out of
7:40
Speaker 1: a dream looking back and too, have I done all this?
7:45
Speaker 1: So it was the delusion that alcohol did to me
7:48
Speaker 1: and it doesn't do everyone. And I accept full responsibility
7:51
Speaker 1: for everything I did. I'm not making excuses, but that's
7:54
Speaker 1: that was the thought process, right.
7:56
Speaker 2: Alcohol is always just a symptom of something underlying, and
8:02
Speaker 2: sometimes it's a low self esteem and people who fall
8:05
Speaker 2: in with the criminal miliere often suffer from that that
8:09
Speaker 2: they can find fellowship and brotherwood amongst these people where
8:13
Speaker 2: they're better is so called, would reject them? Did you
8:16
Speaker 2: find that there was a self esteem issue going into
8:20
Speaker 2: these moments that alcohol tended to medicate.
8:23
Speaker 1: No, quite the opposite. Actually, I saw these people as
8:27
Speaker 1: my ladder to success, so mixing with them and they
8:31
Speaker 1: drink and I drink, so I had something in common
8:34
Speaker 1: with them. So I'd often come down to the hotels
8:36
Speaker 1: in Port Melbourne and South Melbourne and I developed a
8:40
Speaker 1: really strong magistrates court practice and also bailing guys at
8:46
Speaker 1: three in the morning, so I always had bail money
8:48
Speaker 1: with me. So you get a phone call at three
8:50
Speaker 1: o'clock so and so it's been arrested, he's at the
8:52
Speaker 1: Northfolk police station. Leave it with me. So I'd get
8:55
Speaker 1: up arrange for a JP to attend, get the bail done,
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Speaker 1: and then they'd come in and pay me next day.
9:02
Speaker 1: So I didn't see it as a selfish issue. It
9:06
Speaker 1: was just this is my pathway to success, and that's
9:09
Speaker 1: what I was saying. The alcohol made me delusional. I'm
9:12
Speaker 1: going to look back now, I'm thinking it's crazy. But
9:14
Speaker 1: then I didn't a shortcut again.
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Speaker 2: Maybe that's the recurring theme as a shortcut asm and
9:20
Speaker 2: the way you approach things. Another lawyer, Andrew Fraser, his
9:24
Speaker 2: love was cocaine, which pitched him into the Dennis Allen
9:28
Speaker 2: Cremorn push. He went to jail on the end as well.
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Speaker 2: And one thing he built up was an extraordinary trust.
9:36
Speaker 2: Sitting with the crooks, taking drugs, with them, being with them,
9:39
Speaker 2: he kept their secrets and that made him indispensable.
9:43
Speaker 1: Was that the same for you? Yes? It was. They
9:47
Speaker 1: could trust me because I was dealing on both sides
9:50
Speaker 1: of the fence too, So I had police who would
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Speaker 1: refer clients to me, you know, and I'd give him
9:55
Speaker 1: a sling if they sent a client. How much we're
9:57
Speaker 1: talking here, what's a sling? Oh? I could have been
9:59
Speaker 1: a couple of grand depending on what the charges were
10:02
Speaker 1: and what outcome you were trying to achieve. I sort
10:05
Speaker 1: of felt that that was okay to do, and you
10:10
Speaker 1: build up the trust. And then some things happened where
10:14
Speaker 1: I was offered deals by the police and I said no,
10:16
Speaker 1: and they found out that I said no, So that
10:19
Speaker 1: in game built up more trust. So in the end
10:22
Speaker 1: they just trusted me.
10:23
Speaker 2: What's happening in your private life at the stage you're
10:25
Speaker 2: getting married, you're having a couple of kids.
10:27
Speaker 1: I wasn't me. I was drinking, I was gambling. I'd
10:31
Speaker 1: get home at four or five in the morning, of
10:33
Speaker 1: an hour's sleep and go back into the office. And
10:36
Speaker 1: you can do it when you're younger.
10:37
Speaker 2: This is now in your early thirties, late twenties, late
10:40
Speaker 2: twenties earlier.
10:41
Speaker 1: Ye. So two boys, yeah, two young boys were born
10:45
Speaker 1: in seventy six and seventy seven, and Marian was a
10:48
Speaker 1: school teacher and she didn't understand what was going on.
10:53
Speaker 1: And I kept it all to myself until it all
10:56
Speaker 1: exploded and blew up.
10:57
Speaker 2: Really kept it all to yourself. Yeah, No one knew,
11:00
Speaker 2: No confidants, no one knew what happened to the marriage.
11:05
Speaker 1: I got divorced in jail in nineteen eighty three or
11:09
Speaker 1: eighty four. I think I was. In fact, it was
11:11
Speaker 1: a good story. Father Brosnan was prison chaplain legendary characters.
11:17
Speaker 1: And I was up at Bendygard It was a Saturday morning.
11:19
Speaker 1: Is a knock on my cell door? Come in? It
11:20
Speaker 1: was Father Brosnen. Mom was really sick at the time,
11:24
Speaker 1: and Broce wasn't coming up for a social visit on
11:27
Speaker 1: a Saturday morning to Bendy Go. So I knew something
11:29
Speaker 1: serious had happened. And I said, Father, this is obviously
11:33
Speaker 1: a serious visit. Out with it? He said, Graham, I
11:36
Speaker 1: just want you to relax. I look, I'm relaxed. Just
11:38
Speaker 1: what is it? He said, your wife wants a divorce?
11:41
Speaker 1: So I was that all? Sit down?
11:42
Speaker 2: Do you want to come to me? I couldn't believe
11:45
Speaker 2: it took her that long to get one. Why did
11:47
Speaker 2: she put up with you for so long?
11:48
Speaker 1: Do you think she believed in the sanctity of marriage?
11:53
Speaker 1: But arm Robberie was the final straw. That was it.
11:57
Speaker 1: And she then made the decision that she was going
11:59
Speaker 1: to bring up the two boys, which she did and
12:01
Speaker 1: did a good job.
12:03
Speaker 2: And you're still trying to appear that relationship with your
12:06
Speaker 2: two boys.
12:06
Speaker 1: I believe it was one. Brent had a really serious
12:10
Speaker 1: accident twenty odd years ago. He went to a nightclub drunk,
12:13
Speaker 1: tried to get him, they wouldn't let him in, so
12:16
Speaker 1: he went around the back and climbed up two flights
12:17
Speaker 1: of stairs and came down head first. So he nearly died.
12:21
Speaker 1: And he and I have had a really strong relationship
12:24
Speaker 1: ever since. Mother's son, Brad lives in New Zealand. I
12:28
Speaker 1: got a lot of publicity when I was bringing out
12:30
Speaker 1: Mandola and garbage Off and all those people. We'll get
12:33
Speaker 1: to those for the later in the story. But he
12:36
Speaker 1: didn't think it was fair that I was getting all
12:38
Speaker 1: this good publicity and yet his mother had suffered and
12:42
Speaker 1: bringing him up.
12:44
Speaker 2: So we're pretty much estranged. He may be listening to this, now,
12:47
Speaker 2: what would you say to it.
12:49
Speaker 1: I just hope one day we can get back and
12:51
Speaker 1: have some form of relationship, But it's up to him.
12:55
Speaker 1: I can't do any more.
12:57
Speaker 2: Yes you can, and keep reaching out your bookscore. Don't
13:01
Speaker 2: give up. You can't give up on the I haven't
13:05
Speaker 2: given up on it. But it's like he's got to
13:09
Speaker 2: arrive at a point where he wants to do it.
13:11
Speaker 2: There's a lot of.
13:12
Speaker 1: Angst, and when I get a text message once a year,
13:15
Speaker 1: it's not a pleasant text message from him.
13:18
Speaker 2: How do you respond, I don't you don't respond. No,
13:22
Speaker 2: there's no point in flaming the fire. We're jumping out
13:25
Speaker 2: a few steps in the story. We should go back
13:27
Speaker 2: a bit, but I think it's important because I think
13:29
Speaker 2: these lives around substance abuse, around crime are messy, and
13:34
Speaker 2: they're full of loose ends, full of catastrophes, and full
13:37
Speaker 2: of rationalizations. And to do what you've done to put
13:42
Speaker 2: it all back together again, and not onlyly it a
13:45
Speaker 2: useful life, but a functional life that's helped others is remarkable.
13:49
Speaker 2: So let's go right back to that first moment where
13:52
Speaker 2: you decide to take money from the trust fund as
13:55
Speaker 2: if it's yours.
13:56
Speaker 1: I can't remember it exact time, but the thought process
13:59
Speaker 1: would have been only sure term to cover the rent
14:02
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then it escalates. You know, as a gambler,
14:07
Speaker 1: you always think, well, if I have one big when
14:09
Speaker 1: I'll pay it all back, and of course that never happens,
14:13
Speaker 1: or if it does, you pay it back and then
14:14
Speaker 1: take it again. So it just escalated, and in the
14:18
Speaker 1: end there wasn't a lot of money in terms of
14:21
Speaker 1: what I trust and count can be. I think it
14:23
Speaker 1: was like about ninety five thousand dollars and a lot.
14:25
Speaker 2: I got a bit of money back in the years.
14:27
Speaker 2: It was probably equivalent half of me and now something.
14:31
Speaker 2: But most of it was a trust that my father
14:34
Speaker 2: had left me via my mother, and she'd invested it
14:38
Speaker 2: in the business, in the law practice. And then there
14:42
Speaker 2: was about twenty odd thousand dollars with three or four
14:44
Speaker 2: different people. Right, So you rip your mom off, well,
14:47
Speaker 2: I rip myself off via my mother by your mother,
14:50
Speaker 2: And how did you get caught?
14:53
Speaker 1: It just got to a stage in the end where
14:56
Speaker 1: there was no more money, and I decided I had
14:59
Speaker 1: to get out of Melbourne. So I jumped on a
15:02
Speaker 1: plane and I bought a cashier for it, had a
15:04
Speaker 1: per and booked a ticket to Sydney because I knew
15:08
Speaker 1: that the police should check and see the stink that
15:10
Speaker 1: I've gone to Sydney. I was over in Perth for
15:13
Speaker 1: a couple of days and someone reads your grame. We've
15:16
Speaker 1: got to come back, and the person you owe the
15:18
Speaker 1: money to it's not abby and it's not going to
15:20
Speaker 1: end well. So I came back.
15:22
Speaker 2: I don't think that's a good reason to come back.
15:24
Speaker 2: It sounds like the opposite.
15:25
Speaker 1: Well, I was concerned about my wife and kids and.
15:28
Speaker 2: What you had a weakness, you had a pressure point,
15:32
Speaker 2: well your weakness or whatever you want to call them.
15:34
Speaker 2: But I thought, no, I got to come back and
15:36
Speaker 2: sort this out.
15:38
Speaker 1: You got charge. What'd you get in the end for
15:39
Speaker 1: that five years with a two year minimum?
15:43
Speaker 2: What's that first night like when the jail cell door
15:46
Speaker 2: closes behind you?
15:49
Speaker 1: Terror? Terror because you don't know what you're had in it.
15:52
Speaker 1: Even though I've been out the pantridge one hundred times
15:55
Speaker 1: to want professional visits. It's different when you get off
15:58
Speaker 1: the van in the old left division and you get
16:00
Speaker 1: stripped and shower and take them up to your cell.
16:03
Speaker 1: And in those days, indeed a vision in the romand section,
16:06
Speaker 1: you had your own celf. And I remember laying on
16:09
Speaker 1: the bank and counting the bricks on the ceiling, and
16:12
Speaker 1: you could hear guys screaming every now and again, and
16:15
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh, what's tomorrow are going to bring? But
16:18
Speaker 1: you quickly. I was fortunate because I knew a number
16:20
Speaker 1: of guys who were in there. One of the lines
16:23
Speaker 1: I always used, I always thought I was a good lawyer.
16:24
Speaker 1: I got to jail and saw all my clients, but
16:29
Speaker 1: it was very quickly that guys who knew me and
16:32
Speaker 1: I acted for sent out message just make sure you
16:35
Speaker 1: look after Graham, and so it softened a quite a deal.
16:40
Speaker 1: You're also withdrawing from alcohol too. What was that like?
16:43
Speaker 1: I didn't notice it at all, to be honest. The
16:46
Speaker 1: second day.
16:47
Speaker 2: I got to rest it on the Friday and out
16:49
Speaker 2: to pinkriage on the Saturday, and I had broken ribs
16:53
Speaker 2: and you know, I wasn't feeling great.
16:55
Speaker 1: How'd you get broken ribs? The police wanted some answers
17:00
Speaker 1: and didn't get them. So that was back at the
17:03
Speaker 1: prim police station. I don't forget when I came in
17:07
Speaker 1: and I was handcuffed obviously, and the sergeant saw me
17:10
Speaker 1: shed Graham, what are you doing here? And then he
17:11
Speaker 1: looked at me and he said, I don't tell me
17:13
Speaker 1: that was you. So he took me into the room
17:15
Speaker 1: and she looked the beer. In a minute, there's nothing
17:18
Speaker 1: I can do. And they came through the door and
17:21
Speaker 1: a couple of big arm robbery sword coppers and he said,
17:24
Speaker 1: who are you with? I said, I don't want you're
17:26
Speaker 1: talking about it? And went bang, And next minute they
17:29
Speaker 1: held my nose and cover my mouth and I blacked out.
17:32
Speaker 1: I thought I was dying. And the next minute I
17:34
Speaker 1: came to, it was sergeant standing on me. He said
17:37
Speaker 1: you're right, Graham. I said yeah. He said, you nearly died.
17:40
Speaker 1: She just wallowed your tongue. I got back up and
17:44
Speaker 1: then they transported me into the armed robbery squad.
17:46
Speaker 2: And this is after the armed robbery or the after
17:48
Speaker 2: the armbre Okay, we're jumping ahead. I'm talking about that
17:51
Speaker 2: about that first time in jail though, because I remember
17:53
Speaker 2: Father Peter Norton expentriate chaplain as well.
17:56
Speaker 1: He said that the reason why.
17:59
Speaker 2: Prison cells are called cells, it goes back to the
18:01
Speaker 2: old mo days where people in the monastery would be
18:04
Speaker 2: in their cell for reflection, thought, and insight. You've been
18:10
Speaker 2: going a million miles an hour, consorting with crooks, gambling, drinking,
18:15
Speaker 2: and this moment of repose, this moment of reflection that
18:18
Speaker 2: you have when you're in the cell on that first
18:20
Speaker 2: night and subsequent days can be a turning point. What
18:23
Speaker 2: did it feel like for you?
18:25
Speaker 1: And I didn't see it's a turning point because I
18:28
Speaker 1: didn't think alcohol was my problem. I just thought I
18:31
Speaker 1: was a good blike and I had a bad trot
18:32
Speaker 1: because alcohol was ingrained in my life the way I
18:36
Speaker 1: was brought up, and I'm not blaming month, but it
18:38
Speaker 1: was just how it was. It was the drinking culture,
18:41
Speaker 1: so alcohol didn't come into my mind at all. So
18:45
Speaker 1: I just thought i'd use the time I lost a
18:47
Speaker 1: lot of ways in my first prison, since I lost
18:49
Speaker 1: fifty kilos.
18:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I've seen pictures of you back in that era,
18:53
Speaker 2: big burly character, sideburns, dark hair. I didn't recognize you
18:57
Speaker 2: when I mention in the four year just now, so
18:59
Speaker 2: you have a bit of a chameleon, you know.
19:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean in the end, I was living
19:04
Speaker 1: on fast food. So I mean when I was practicing
19:07
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years in North Melbourne, I
19:09
Speaker 1: arrived at work at seven every morning and get out
19:12
Speaker 1: of the car, go over the takeaway food shop and
19:14
Speaker 1: Joe was there and he said normal breakfast, Graham and
19:16
Speaker 1: say yes, And I only thget he'd made me two
19:19
Speaker 1: toasted cheese, tomato and onion sandwiches, two cups of cappuccino
19:23
Speaker 1: and then three packets are quickly I'd just go after
19:28
Speaker 1: your office and had a way i'd go again.
19:30
Speaker 2: Just a lure of diminishing returns, which finally came home
19:33
Speaker 2: to roost. When you're in jail, then you lose fifty kiloes. Wow,
19:36
Speaker 2: it's amazing. But you're not finished. So you do your
19:38
Speaker 2: two years and you come out and what do you do? Well,
19:41
Speaker 2: what's the the first day? I think I read that
19:43
Speaker 2: your first time you had like ten schooners or something.
19:46
Speaker 1: You were straight back into the boerze. Yeah. Yeah, I
19:48
Speaker 1: went to the parole board when I got released and
19:51
Speaker 1: went down to the Richmond used to drink cause Norton
19:54
Speaker 1: was Republican, daved Castle. I should pour me apot. I've
19:57
Speaker 1: been dreaman about this and make sure the frost's coming
19:59
Speaker 1: over the top. So I drank that and another eight
20:02
Speaker 1: or nine, went home and there was a party that
20:05
Speaker 1: and people had come in to see me, and I'm
20:08
Speaker 1: thinking this layoffs done me good.
20:10
Speaker 2: But of course all the people that you've been associating
20:12
Speaker 2: with their work crooks, the legal fraternity, must have shunned
20:15
Speaker 2: you at this point. But you're coming out, You've got
20:17
Speaker 2: a reputation, you've done some jail time. Now, I'd imagine
20:20
Speaker 2: those same crooks and things were gravitating.
20:23
Speaker 1: You were gravitating all they were coming back to you.
20:25
Speaker 1: I applied for jobs in the first couple of months
20:28
Speaker 1: that I got out and didn't get them. I remember
20:33
Speaker 1: applying to the Ficual Legal Service and I went in
20:35
Speaker 1: for an interview. Un I said, Graham, you're overqualified for
20:38
Speaker 1: the position. I'm thinking, how I ever qualified? I'm going
20:41
Speaker 1: Lord agree. But then I called into a made of
20:45
Speaker 1: mine who used to drink, Charlie Kersher. He had the
20:47
Speaker 1: Guiding Star out in Brooklyn. So I'm having a couple
20:49
Speaker 1: of drinks with him and he said, Graham, I'm really busy.
20:52
Speaker 1: Jump beyond the counter and help us out? Were you?
20:55
Speaker 1: So I did, and that night he said, look, do
20:57
Speaker 1: you want to manage the pub? And I said, yeah,
20:59
Speaker 1: I love to. So I was the manager of the
21:03
Speaker 1: Guiding Star out in Brooklyn. I could go wrong and
21:05
Speaker 1: alcoholic in charge of a pub. Oh yeah. But a
21:11
Speaker 1: lot of people I knew had parted company with me
21:15
Speaker 1: for obvious reasons. So the only place that I really
21:19
Speaker 1: felt comfortable having a drink with was guys from the underworld.
21:23
Speaker 1: So I used to catch up with them and I
21:25
Speaker 1: just sort of gravitated to that without any thought process.
21:29
Speaker 1: It's just what I did. Well, it's back to self esteem.
21:32
Speaker 2: I think, because you've lost your legal career, you've been
21:35
Speaker 2: shunned by all those higher ups, those magistrates, embarrasses and
21:39
Speaker 2: judges you were drinking with in town when you were
21:40
Speaker 2: an article clerk. They're all gone to you. And your
21:44
Speaker 2: wife's hanging on with you. She needed a medal for patients, right.
21:49
Speaker 2: So the underworld guys who accepted you and didn't judge
21:53
Speaker 2: you must have been a real refuge for you.
21:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm not sure what it was self esteem,
21:58
Speaker 1: but it was just I sort of was thinking, well,
22:00
Speaker 1: this is how my life's unfolding, you know. And I
22:02
Speaker 1: didn't put much more thought into it than that.
22:05
Speaker 2: Because you talk about now in the books that you've
22:07
Speaker 2: written and so forth, being a master of your own destiny.
22:10
Speaker 2: What did you think your destiny was having come out
22:13
Speaker 2: of jail after that two year lagging out? What was
22:17
Speaker 2: your plan or was any sense of destiny out of that?
22:21
Speaker 1: No, there wasn't. I hadn't given that any thought. It
22:24
Speaker 1: was more what was happening on a day to day basis.
22:28
Speaker 1: And again I was drinking when I was managing the
22:31
Speaker 1: pub because Charlie didn't mind that. So I was still
22:34
Speaker 1: in this delusional life where I didn't have any long
22:39
Speaker 1: term goals or you know, none of that occurred to me.
22:43
Speaker 2: So you came out of jail fighting fit, a fresh
22:46
Speaker 2: start possible. How did we go from that moment to
22:50
Speaker 2: putting the weight back on, drinking heaps and finding yourself
22:54
Speaker 2: with a handgun robbing a bank.
22:56
Speaker 1: How did that happen? I was knocking around with the
22:59
Speaker 1: guys in the underworld and they were serious players. The
23:03
Speaker 1: opportunity came up. He said you want to do it?
23:05
Speaker 1: And I said, yep, that's as much thought as I
23:08
Speaker 1: put into it. What was the target? What was the planning?
23:11
Speaker 1: It was a bank in Chapel Street. Bran and he's
23:14
Speaker 1: dead there, chocker, so I can talk about it. He said,
23:17
Speaker 1: look you know and had a look and he says
23:18
Speaker 1: what we're going to do? And it said okay done.
23:21
Speaker 1: It didn't end well.
23:22
Speaker 2: It won't go down as one of the smoothest bank
23:24
Speaker 2: robbies of all time. Tell us what happened. What happened
23:27
Speaker 2: was we pulled up but actually missed the point. You
23:30
Speaker 2: had a bit of a Dutch courage session beforehand. How
23:32
Speaker 2: much booze did you drink before you at beers and
23:35
Speaker 2: a couple that was all.
23:36
Speaker 1: And when we pulled up in the side street in
23:40
Speaker 1: the car park at the back of the bank, because
23:42
Speaker 1: it was two entrances to the bank. The back entrance
23:45
Speaker 1: was right opposite to take Away food shop, and they
23:48
Speaker 1: saw us getting out of the car and had a
23:51
Speaker 1: phone number to the Prim police station and they rang
23:54
Speaker 1: the Prim Police station who had a car almost out
23:58
Speaker 1: the front of the bank in Chapel Street. So when
24:02
Speaker 1: we came out of the bank, they were there already.
24:05
Speaker 2: Or you had your bella Clavis on or whatever at
24:07
Speaker 2: this point.
24:07
Speaker 1: That's when we came out, had those on. And so
24:09
Speaker 1: there was three of us and Laurie took off that
24:13
Speaker 1: way and Evil took off that way, and I took
24:15
Speaker 1: off and they chased me. And I was really lucky actually,
24:18
Speaker 1: because there were a couple of young senior constables concibles
24:22
Speaker 1: and they followed the rule book stop as we'll shoot.
24:25
Speaker 1: If it had been members of a more infamous squad,
24:30
Speaker 1: I'm not sure they would have said stop as we
24:32
Speaker 1: will shoot. Yeah, that's right.
24:33
Speaker 2: The warning shot through the back of your head basically
24:35
Speaker 2: could have been the result but you fell over and
24:37
Speaker 2: dropped your gun, didn't you.
24:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't follow. I just dropped my gun and stopped. Yeah.
24:41
Speaker 1: Had you ever handled a firearm before? Yeah? What was it?
24:44
Speaker 2: By the way, what was your gun? Saw off shotgun?
24:47
Speaker 2: Saw off shotgun?
24:48
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, we prepared to use it. They had a
24:51
Speaker 1: couple of strict rules the more professional arm robbery teams,
24:55
Speaker 1: and one was you never ever shoot to kill. Never,
24:59
Speaker 1: because that's twenty years fire in the air, to scare
25:02
Speaker 1: people if you have to, if it gets worse the
25:05
Speaker 1: leg but never ever. It's made sense to me.
25:08
Speaker 2: So this is a sawn off four to ten shotgun
25:10
Speaker 2: with two cartridges in. They do kill people. The flag
25:13
Speaker 2: doesn't come out the end slaying bang exactly. Were you
25:16
Speaker 2: prepared for that possibility? It had an end in my
25:19
Speaker 2: head as you look back now. And I've talked to
25:22
Speaker 2: bank tellers who've been the victim of these sorts of
25:24
Speaker 2: robberies many times over the years, and the trauma that
25:26
Speaker 2: they carry. Oh do you remember when you pointed your
25:29
Speaker 2: weapon at somebody in that bank?
25:31
Speaker 1: No, I don't, but it's interesting you say that. I
25:33
Speaker 1: remember when I was bringing Nelson Mandela out. I'm banked
25:37
Speaker 1: with the NAB and that's the bank that I robbed.
25:40
Speaker 1: Then it's on a file so they know. And I
25:43
Speaker 1: was telling Julie Kinsley he was the area manager and
25:46
Speaker 1: she said, Grahame, we just had a net room managers meeting,
25:49
Speaker 1: one of the managers on the South African Australian Business
25:52
Speaker 1: Council and he'd love to help you if he can.
25:54
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, I love to. She was only just
25:56
Speaker 1: one problem. I said, what's that? She said he was
25:58
Speaker 1: the manager of the bank he rob Oh. Oh, anyway,
26:01
Speaker 1: he rearng me. So I got talking to him and
26:03
Speaker 1: I said, look, there's been something on my mind for
26:05
Speaker 1: a long time. I would really like to go back
26:08
Speaker 1: and somehow apologize. I know it's not going to cut
26:10
Speaker 1: the mustard, but I just it's been on my mind
26:13
Speaker 1: for a long time. And he said, Graham, under no
26:16
Speaker 1: circumstances should you do that. They've all had counseling, they've
26:19
Speaker 1: all moved on. All you're going to do is rear
26:21
Speaker 1: that in their heads again. Now I understood that, but
26:24
Speaker 1: I remember getting off the phone thinking I get it,
26:27
Speaker 1: but that's not going to help me. I have to
26:29
Speaker 1: find a different way to deal with what happened and
26:33
Speaker 1: park it in a place in my head where it
26:35
Speaker 1: doesn't dominate me.
26:36
Speaker 2: And forgive yourself. Begin that process. No, I've never forgiven myself,
26:40
Speaker 2: haven't you. No, Never, I've accepted what I've done. I
26:44
Speaker 2: take full responsibility for what I've done. I know why
26:46
Speaker 2: it happened, and I know that alcohol and Graham is
26:50
Speaker 2: a toxic mix. So I've had a drink now for
26:52
Speaker 2: forty three years. So that's not forgiving yourself. That's just
26:55
Speaker 2: making sure you don't make the same mistake again.
26:57
Speaker 1: Do you remember that last drink? When was it at
27:00
Speaker 1: the hotel five minutes before the bank and drink that one? Yeah?
27:06
Speaker 1: I remember it well because I know exactly what happened
27:08
Speaker 1: after that too. How much money did you get from that,
27:12
Speaker 1: by the way, I think it was about fifteen thousand
27:15
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, there was. The vault was supposed to
27:19
Speaker 1: be open because the armor vair had just been or something,
27:22
Speaker 1: but it wasn't and so that was just the cash draws. Right.
27:29
Speaker 2: So I think we've dealt with bad Graham now and
27:32
Speaker 2: all the permutations. You're back in Penridge And what was
27:36
Speaker 2: the sentence for that arm? I break seven with the five?
27:39
Speaker 2: What did you think then, I mean, you've sort of
27:41
Speaker 2: doubled the negative now in your life.
27:44
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was going to happen. Second, the
27:45
Speaker 1: first day I was back out of Patridge on a Saturday,
27:48
Speaker 1: I remember sitting by the water fountain in the remand
27:51
Speaker 1: yard in two division. I said to myself, you've got
27:53
Speaker 1: two choices here to give up or get up. No
27:55
Speaker 1: one's going to get you out of this mess by yourself.
27:58
Speaker 1: And I didn't want to die of failure. I didn't
28:01
Speaker 1: want to die never having unwrapped whatever skills I'm telling
28:04
Speaker 1: I might have. So I made a decision that day
28:08
Speaker 1: that I was going to do everything I possibly could
28:11
Speaker 1: to turn this around and make whatever length of stay
28:14
Speaker 1: I was going to be Therefore, because those days I
28:17
Speaker 1: had remissions, so five could turn into just under four
28:23
Speaker 1: if you've got good behavior. And Jeff Kenneth changed all that.
28:26
Speaker 1: But big mistake too, because the only two tools that
28:30
Speaker 1: really influenced prisoners are early release and visits and contact
28:35
Speaker 1: with their family. And the believers that the prison guards
28:39
Speaker 1: had to control behavior to some extent. I mean, if
28:44
Speaker 1: they were lunatics and psychos, and it wouldn't matter what
28:46
Speaker 1: you did. You know, if you're a chopper or whatever.
28:48
Speaker 1: And when you're doing a sentence of four or five years,
28:52
Speaker 1: there's really three components to it. The first half you
28:56
Speaker 1: sort of can't see a finishing light. Then you get
28:59
Speaker 1: to sort of the half way mark and you start
29:02
Speaker 1: to think, I'm halfway through this. Now I only got
29:05
Speaker 1: an X. So you start to change your thinking and
29:08
Speaker 1: start thinking about what you're going to do when you
29:09
Speaker 1: get out. And then it comes around and the gate
29:12
Speaker 1: opens and the way you.
29:13
Speaker 2: Go because you had to assess the physical impact of
29:17
Speaker 2: your drinking on you, and you had that testing, the
29:20
Speaker 2: clinical testing which you discovered that you had brain damage
29:23
Speaker 2: from what you'd done, and you took a very practical
29:26
Speaker 2: approach which began with a sort of mental training. And
29:29
Speaker 2: I love the fact that it was crosswords that were
29:32
Speaker 2: the first moment where you began to retrain your brain.
29:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'd sit there with the age or the son
29:39
Speaker 1: the crossroad. Mum used to bring me in books of
29:41
Speaker 1: crossword puzzles and I'd sit there.
29:43
Speaker 2: Oh, Mo, must have given you the rounds of the kitchen,
29:45
Speaker 2: just a great what are you doing in here again?
29:47
Speaker 1: What did you say to you? She was completely opposite,
29:50
Speaker 1: She was broken broken hearted, But every time she'd come
29:54
Speaker 1: in to see me on a contact visit or a
29:56
Speaker 1: phone visit, she was always positive as I was. I
29:59
Speaker 1: would never let on any doubt about how I was
30:03
Speaker 1: or whatever. I found the crossword puzzles, playing cards, reading.
30:09
Speaker 1: When I first started reading in Jarl again, I couldn't
30:12
Speaker 1: read more than two lines and absorb it. I'd have
30:15
Speaker 1: to reread it. And then I was a paragraph, and
30:18
Speaker 1: there was a page, and it was a chapter, and
30:20
Speaker 1: in the end I was speed reading. And I was
30:21
Speaker 1: reading biographies of successful people, because I always thought success
30:26
Speaker 1: was money, cars and houses, and that had been a
30:30
Speaker 1: monumental failure to me. So I wanted to understand what
30:34
Speaker 1: really successful people. The mother to raise different people. I
30:40
Speaker 1: remember reading Fletcher James's book Not by Myself, Conrad Hilton
30:44
Speaker 1: be my guest. I wanted to understand what made them tick,
30:48
Speaker 1: and that started to formulate how I was going to
30:51
Speaker 1: reconstruct my future.
30:54
Speaker 2: What were the next steps. I mean, Mum was obviously
30:56
Speaker 2: very important. She's the one that stuck by you. In
30:58
Speaker 2: the end, your wife decided it was too much, but
31:01
Speaker 2: Mum was that first person who said, I can see
31:03
Speaker 2: something in you, grab that's worth saving.
31:06
Speaker 1: Is that right?
31:08
Speaker 2: She knew what I was like before it all started,
31:10
Speaker 2: before alcohol took over.
31:12
Speaker 1: You know, I was a pretty good person, played sport,
31:14
Speaker 1: went to Trinity, got a scholarship. So there was always
31:18
Speaker 1: this hope that I guess mums and dads will generally
31:22
Speaker 1: believe that their son or daughter will come good. What
31:26
Speaker 1: about your dad? My father died when I was five.
31:29
Speaker 2: That's an interesting point I've often seen with people who
31:33
Speaker 2: have gone down this road. The loss of the father
31:35
Speaker 2: or a bad relationship with the father is a point
31:39
Speaker 2: of moral navigation that can go wrong.
31:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. Possibly, I've never looked at it that way, though.
31:44
Speaker 1: I remember from a first case over my trust account
31:48
Speaker 1: and a lawyer Embarrasster say, Graham, we need to get
31:51
Speaker 1: a site report done. So I went down to see
31:53
Speaker 1: this Sichings and killed her and he said, Grandma, I
31:57
Speaker 1: need to give it a background.
31:58
Speaker 2: He said, now do you drink? And I thought, I'll
32:00
Speaker 2: be careful here what I say?
32:01
Speaker 1: I said, oh yeah, I might have twelve or fifteen
32:03
Speaker 1: years A day's gone. What And he said, dear smoke,
32:07
Speaker 1: And I said, I'll be careful her. I said, look,
32:09
Speaker 1: I might have a packet if I made a nightclub,
32:11
Speaker 1: a bit more cart on a bad day. And then
32:14
Speaker 1: he said, what about your parents? I said, well, mom'ster alive,
32:18
Speaker 1: but my father died when I was five. He said
32:20
Speaker 1: that's the reason you drink. I said, no, it's not,
32:23
Speaker 1: and he said, what is it? So I like it
32:26
Speaker 1: and he just looked at me. It's interesting. I understand trauma,
32:31
Speaker 1: especially doing what I do now. I understand trauma, but
32:35
Speaker 1: trauma is a double edged sword because when you say
32:39
Speaker 1: to someone the reason you behaved like you did was
32:42
Speaker 1: because your father died when you were five, you can't
32:45
Speaker 1: change that. The only way you can change is what
32:48
Speaker 1: you think about it. So and I often get clients
32:52
Speaker 1: who are seeing sights I'm talking about addiction now on
32:55
Speaker 1: substance abuse. Sitting there and rehashing the traumatic events in
33:00
Speaker 1: your past can almost lead to an increased use of
33:03
Speaker 1: the substance because you haven't come up with a way
33:07
Speaker 1: of dealing with it which allows you to move.
33:10
Speaker 2: Forward, or otherwise you victimize yourself and that becomes very
33:15
Speaker 2: difficult to now reimagine oneself. And clearly you were able
33:20
Speaker 2: to do that. Sitting in pantrides there reading about these
33:23
Speaker 2: successful people, you began to build a different self image.
33:27
Speaker 1: What was that? Yeah. Look, one of my favorite saying is,
33:31
Speaker 1: when you're standing on the Hottleburo railway platform, what train
33:34
Speaker 1: got you there, to a lot of extent is irrelevant.
33:36
Speaker 1: It's what train am I getting on to get out
33:38
Speaker 1: of here? And that's how I viewed it. So I
33:42
Speaker 1: decided that my life was such a mess, I was
33:45
Speaker 1: going to treat it like a house. I was just
33:46
Speaker 1: going to bulldoze it and rebuild it. And I was
33:50
Speaker 1: going to go back and take the good qualities that
33:52
Speaker 1: I thought I had and incorporate that, and then to
33:55
Speaker 1: add all of the other qualities that I'd seen these
33:58
Speaker 1: successful people how they lived.
34:02
Speaker 2: But you also still believed in the foundations that had
34:05
Speaker 2: the trinity, the sportsman, the fair play sort of person.
34:09
Speaker 2: So I guess you could say, I mean Father Brosn
34:12
Speaker 2: used to say that you put a person in h
34:13
Speaker 2: division in penridg who's a bicycle that comes out as
34:15
Speaker 2: a murderer. That happened a lot, whereas you were a
34:20
Speaker 2: good example of rehabilitation. You had been habilitated and you
34:25
Speaker 2: could see how to rehabilitate yourself. I think that should
34:28
Speaker 2: be the aim of our prison system today. But it's
34:30
Speaker 2: not it's sheer punishment. What opportunities did you take in
34:34
Speaker 2: jail to start that process that were offered to you?
34:36
Speaker 1: Not just what you what you were offered. I did
34:39
Speaker 1: all sorts of courses when I went from Pencridge to Pindigo.
34:43
Speaker 1: The prison education center was run by a guy called
34:46
Speaker 1: Glynn Carey. He and I are still friends to this day,
34:49
Speaker 1: and he saw something in me. So I was doing
34:52
Speaker 1: courses and I'll never forget Bobby Incid was coming up
34:57
Speaker 1: to do a talk and Glenn say, Grain, would you
34:59
Speaker 1: like to introduce your message year? So I introduced him
35:02
Speaker 1: and Bob had a board in the North Monty Cup
35:06
Speaker 1: because he was president at the time for the listeners.
35:08
Speaker 2: Bob Anshid was an entrepreneur seventies, eighties, nineties. His budget
35:11
Speaker 2: red card, driving your dollar further. I think that was
35:13
Speaker 2: the slogan. And he was an amazing self believer son
35:18
Speaker 2: of Red Ansett. He'd sort of been kicked out of
35:21
Speaker 2: the family, I think more or less had to make
35:23
Speaker 2: his own way, and he was tremendously successful, and he
35:26
Speaker 2: took you under.
35:28
Speaker 1: What happened was I introduced him. He went back to
35:30
Speaker 1: the boardman in that night and the CEO of North
35:34
Speaker 1: moment at the Times a guy called Ron Joseph, who
35:36
Speaker 1: I went to school with at Trinity, and Bob said, look,
35:39
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm late. I've went up to Bennig prison
35:41
Speaker 1: doing a talk to the guys, and Ron said had
35:45
Speaker 1: to go. So it was great he should. I got
35:47
Speaker 1: the best introduction I've ever had from this ex lawyer,
35:50
Speaker 1: and ron z is precked up and he said, was
35:52
Speaker 1: her fat guy with glasses? And Bob said, no, he
35:56
Speaker 1: had glasses for her. Wasn't fat? And Ron said was
35:59
Speaker 1: his name Graham Olfa, Yeah, that's him. So Ron came
36:02
Speaker 1: to see me three or four times towards him sins.
36:05
Speaker 1: And when I got out, he took me out for dinner.
36:07
Speaker 1: Carolin im my wife now and he said, look, would
36:12
Speaker 1: you like a copy of Bob's biography? I said yeah,
36:15
Speaker 1: So he got one and I still got Bob right
36:17
Speaker 1: on the inside. Cava Graham, all the best for your
36:19
Speaker 1: future challenges in life, best wishes, Bob Hanseid. So I
36:24
Speaker 1: read the book and I wrote to him and I said, Bob,
36:26
Speaker 1: in the great book, I said, in the history of
36:28
Speaker 1: the Melbourne Cup, there's been four one hundred to one winners.
36:31
Speaker 1: If you were to give me a job, I'd be
36:32
Speaker 1: the fifth. And I was working the scrap metal yard.
36:35
Speaker 1: Then I just got.
36:36
Speaker 2: Out because you've been laboring, you'd actually humbled yourself. Yeah,
36:40
Speaker 2: for two fifty a week yep, working on the tools yep.
36:44
Speaker 1: Out of made of mine. Harry Matthews gave me a
36:47
Speaker 1: job and say that's what I was doing anyway. About
36:50
Speaker 1: a week later I got a ring from Phillip o Ebelt,
36:52
Speaker 1: who was the personnel secretary there, and she's a Graham.
36:55
Speaker 1: Mister Ansid's given me your letter and asked me to
36:58
Speaker 1: get you in and see if do something we can't
37:00
Speaker 1: do for you.
37:01
Speaker 2: So I went in Sawa and she's Grahamed. The only
37:03
Speaker 2: job we've got on offers in the insurance of department
37:05
Speaker 2: as a clerk insurance claims clark on eight a and
37:08
Speaker 2: grand a year. She probably way below what you're looking for,
37:11
Speaker 2: I said, Philli. And we're in a metal guard. This
37:14
Speaker 2: is way above. So it's how I started.
37:16
Speaker 1: And I'll be eternally grateful for Bob forgive me that opportunity.
37:20
Speaker 2: And that self belief in those breaks you got led
37:23
Speaker 2: to a career as an entrepreneur. Your big thing was,
37:26
Speaker 2: of course, to bring very notable speakers out to speak here.
37:29
Speaker 2: And they were headliners back in the day. Norman Schwartzkough, Nelson,
37:33
Speaker 2: Mandela Leiah Koker. These sorts of people are heroes at
37:36
Speaker 2: the corporate and political world.
37:38
Speaker 1: How did you fasten onto that idea? When Bob finished
37:42
Speaker 1: a budget, he and I set up at business and
37:44
Speaker 1: I was sort of managing him and he was on
37:46
Speaker 1: the speaking circuit. And then Bob got bankrupted, which dried
37:50
Speaker 1: up those talks. So I started putting on events in
37:52
Speaker 1: country towns. So I'd go into the country town, I'd
37:55
Speaker 1: have a breakfast, get some sponsorship, join up with a
37:58
Speaker 1: local Lions Club or road tree, and then we'd come
38:01
Speaker 1: back six or eight weeks later and there'd be five
38:04
Speaker 1: hundred in the city. Sena and I see the night
38:06
Speaker 1: and Boba do the talk. And then Bob moved up
38:09
Speaker 1: to Nursia to live and retire with Josie. I was
38:13
Speaker 1: driving a broken hill one day for one of these nights,
38:15
Speaker 1: and it was a stinker not day, and I think
38:17
Speaker 1: there's got to be a better way to make And
38:19
Speaker 1: I thought, I wonder if I've brought out one international speaker.
38:23
Speaker 1: Could you make money? And I love Excel spreadsheets cause
38:26
Speaker 1: you just keep changing the numbers until you get what
38:28
Speaker 1: you want.
38:29
Speaker 2: And so I did that, and then I chased Schwartzclough.
38:34
Speaker 2: General schwartzcoth It.
38:35
Speaker 1: Had been the commander in the Gulf Force the Gulf War.
38:38
Speaker 1: The first one yes, stillman Norman, and took me about
38:42
Speaker 1: a year to get him. Five invitations, No, no, no,
38:46
Speaker 1: And then I tried a classic salesman over. I rang
38:48
Speaker 1: his Pa and Flora and I said, look, I've seen
38:51
Speaker 1: five invitations to the general and he said no. Can
38:54
Speaker 1: you ask him what he wants to come to Australia.
38:56
Speaker 1: My offer was one talk in Melbourne business class AFA
38:59
Speaker 1: fifty thousand US for the talk. So she ran me
39:02
Speaker 1: back a week later said I was spoken to the General.
39:04
Speaker 1: He wants three talks. He wants one hundred thousand US
39:07
Speaker 1: and two first class affairs from Florida. Boom. And I
39:11
Speaker 1: said if I agree to that as he's coming, She
39:13
Speaker 1: said yes. I said done, I'll send you the contract.
39:16
Speaker 1: But you had no idea how you were going to
39:18
Speaker 1: find the cash for that, did you?
39:19
Speaker 2: No? But I was going to make it happen. So
39:22
Speaker 2: I set the date and we booked was the old
39:24
Speaker 2: Olympic swimming pool, Collingwood Football Come Center Now And I
39:28
Speaker 2: booked it on a Sunday and everyone said I'll never
39:30
Speaker 2: work on a Sunday and I said, yes, well it's
39:33
Speaker 2: the only day executives have got off. And then I
39:35
Speaker 2: got a Coker and he took me three or four
39:38
Speaker 2: months to get and seven invitations. In the end, I
39:40
Speaker 2: sent him a personal letter I had an hand delivered
39:42
Speaker 2: to his address in Ballet and got him. And then
39:45
Speaker 2: Stephen Covey, the author of Seven Habits and hotly effected
39:48
Speaker 2: people and it was a sell out.
39:52
Speaker 1: So I was off. You even't got Nelson Mandela in
39:54
Speaker 1: the end. Yeah, that took twenty nine invitations to South Africa.
39:58
Speaker 1: Didn't hear a thing. And I was talking to someone
40:01
Speaker 1: and they said, Graham, he has a children's fund. So
40:04
Speaker 1: I looked at all up and I found out the
40:06
Speaker 1: children's phone, got the phone number and rang and spoke
40:09
Speaker 1: to the CEO guy called Acmntdangle and I said, look,
40:12
Speaker 1: I really want mister Mandelah to come out to Australia.
40:15
Speaker 1: Can I have twenty minutes of your time? He said,
40:18
Speaker 1: but you're in Melbourne. I said, I'll fly over to
40:20
Speaker 1: Johannesburg if you give me twenty minutes, and he said,
40:22
Speaker 1: if you're prepared to come over a wall. So I
40:24
Speaker 1: went over to Johannesburg, out to Santon City where his
40:26
Speaker 1: office was, and I pitched it to him, and an
40:29
Speaker 1: hour and a half later he said, I'm going to
40:31
Speaker 1: recommend to mister Mandela that he comes next year. We
40:34
Speaker 1: have two events a year. What I found out after
40:38
Speaker 1: that was he had a PA called Zoto Lagrange, and
40:41
Speaker 1: she was telling me they were getting five thousand invitations
40:46
Speaker 1: a week and they couldn't answer them, so they just
40:48
Speaker 1: throw them on the rubbish pin, which is where my
40:50
Speaker 1: twenty nine magnificently handcrafted proposal finished.
40:55
Speaker 2: Wow, when you're doing these things, are you thinking back
41:00
Speaker 2: to that bumbling arm robber dropping his shotgun on Chapel Street,
41:05
Speaker 2: Paran going to jail and the most blackest of circumstances.
41:11
Speaker 2: I mean, it's an amazing renaissance, isn't it. Do you
41:14
Speaker 2: ever do that?
41:15
Speaker 4: Now?
41:16
Speaker 1: One of my philosophies in life is everything that's important
41:19
Speaker 1: in your life's in front of you. So every morning
41:22
Speaker 1: I get up, I'm excited about what I'm doing I
41:24
Speaker 1: work up this morning. I knew I was coming in here.
41:26
Speaker 1: I was excited to meet you do the podcast. I've
41:30
Speaker 1: got other things going on, So I just decided I
41:34
Speaker 1: didn't want to get to the other end and not
41:37
Speaker 1: have a serious crack. I could think of nothing worse
41:40
Speaker 1: than sitting on the front porch in the rocking chair,
41:42
Speaker 1: looking back, going I wish I had done this.
41:45
Speaker 2: I wish I had done that, which I broughbed more banks. No,
41:48
Speaker 2: I don't wish that. So that's how I approach life.
41:51
Speaker 2: So what happened in the past, I don't dwell on.
41:54
Speaker 2: All I look at is what did I learn? But
41:57
Speaker 2: I'm what a powerful lestener Because your last drink was
42:00
Speaker 2: forty three years ago, that was your last crime. You're
42:02
Speaker 2: now seventy seven. You think about that, spent more of
42:05
Speaker 2: your life sober and engaged in good pursuits than crime.
42:09
Speaker 2: And I've met a lot of people in their early thirties,
42:11
Speaker 2: mid thirties in crime who think their cards marked, that's it.
42:15
Speaker 2: They hate the system, They got chip on their shoulders.
42:17
Speaker 2: They're prepared to do as much jail as they have
42:19
Speaker 2: to because that's their culture of their life. You've met
42:21
Speaker 2: people in the system like that. Why were you different?
42:24
Speaker 2: There's three types of people in general that are in jail.
42:28
Speaker 2: There are people who you know, white collar or they
42:31
Speaker 2: just do something and they finish in there, come home
42:33
Speaker 2: and find their husband and wife, and people with an
42:35
Speaker 2: next door neighbor or whatever. They're eminently capable of turning
42:39
Speaker 2: their life around when they get out. Then there was
42:42
Speaker 2: a second group born on the wrong side of the tracks,
42:45
Speaker 2: you know, had a tough upbringing, boys' homes. Jail, most
42:51
Speaker 2: of them get to forty odd they go, I've had enough,
42:54
Speaker 2: I'm going to change. And then the people are just
42:57
Speaker 2: playing evil and they should never let them out. I'm
42:59
Speaker 2: a great fan of capital punishment. I saw people in jail.
43:02
Speaker 2: You know what's going to happen when they let them out?
43:05
Speaker 2: And it does.
43:06
Speaker 1: And that's one of the criticisms I've got of the system.
43:09
Speaker 1: Now we have psychs, in particular, because the prole board
43:14
Speaker 1: now won't act without a psychological report and this and that,
43:18
Speaker 1: and people are evil, you know, they just shouldn't let
43:22
Speaker 1: them out, or the sentences have got to be so severe.
43:27
Speaker 1: You know, you take different people and you look at
43:29
Speaker 1: them and you go, I know what's going to happen,
43:32
Speaker 1: and it does. And I never forget that diagnosis of
43:35
Speaker 1: those three people came from Kim West. Kim was a
43:38
Speaker 1: famous copper in the seventies and sixties.
43:41
Speaker 2: Who has expressed absolute astonishment at what you've been able
43:45
Speaker 2: to do. But can't you then extend that potential astonishment
43:49
Speaker 2: to people who've done the wrong thing. But you'd rather
43:51
Speaker 2: hang them, was what you were saying. If you'd shot
43:54
Speaker 2: somebody during that robbery, which you've supported your own capital punishment.
43:59
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's capital punishment. If you look at
44:02
Speaker 1: people's history, take rape first defense. It's six or seven
44:08
Speaker 1: years out, a year, done it again. What are you
44:11
Speaker 1: going to give them this time? They've done it again,
44:13
Speaker 1: so nothing's changed. And when you've got those to me,
44:19
Speaker 1: there's a difference between an armed robbery and someone who
44:25
Speaker 1: is raping and doing that sort of thing. I'm not
44:29
Speaker 1: saying one's better than the other. But sometimes you just
44:32
Speaker 1: see people in jail and you know they're evil. Bad luck,
44:35
Speaker 1: it's the gene that they were born with, but you
44:38
Speaker 1: know they're evil. And history has proved me right on
44:42
Speaker 1: that time and again, I think you'll find broad support
44:45
Speaker 1: for it in the community. I think there's a narrowing.
44:47
Speaker 2: Support for institutions that even focus on rehabilitation. It's all
44:52
Speaker 2: about punishment now, and that's unfortunate that we've got to
44:54
Speaker 2: that stage because I think a lot of people are
44:55
Speaker 2: going into jail and now the young people have never
44:59
Speaker 2: been habilitated, so how on earth does the system correct them.
45:03
Speaker 2: There's got to be a rethink, particular on young people,
45:05
Speaker 2: which could go on all day about that, but let's
45:08
Speaker 2: summarize other things you've been doing.
45:09
Speaker 1: You've written a book Never Give Up.
45:12
Speaker 2: You're also helping people who've gone through the similar situation
45:14
Speaker 2: that you've been through.
45:15
Speaker 1: Tell us about that. About fifteen years ago, I knew
45:20
Speaker 1: all about AA and NA. I'm a fan of alcoholics Anonymous.
45:24
Speaker 1: I'MU biggest fan. That's biggest critic. But it's been great
45:27
Speaker 1: for me. And I thought, you know, I was sixty
45:32
Speaker 1: four or three or something, and I thought, what can
45:33
Speaker 1: I do for the rest of my life that I
45:35
Speaker 1: might have a bit of knowledge about and age is
45:38
Speaker 1: not going to stop me. And it clearly came down
45:42
Speaker 1: to alcoholism and addiction and substance abuse. So I went
45:46
Speaker 1: back to school and did a diploma and that was
45:48
Speaker 1: fascinating sitting in a room with ten other people who
45:51
Speaker 1: were young enough to be my grandkids. Did the diploma
45:55
Speaker 1: and as part of that to do one hundred hours
45:57
Speaker 1: practical placement at a rehab in Melbourne, and I'm looking
46:00
Speaker 1: at what they're doing and I'm thinking this is archaic.
46:03
Speaker 1: So I spent eighteen months ree searching rehabs, particularly in
46:06
Speaker 1: America because there's thousands of them over there. And what
46:09
Speaker 1: I noticed was there was nothing for people who were
46:13
Speaker 1: still functioning but had a substance issue in some degree
46:16
Speaker 1: severe or not so severe. There was nothing for them.
46:19
Speaker 1: There was just sent them to rehablock them up for
46:21
Speaker 1: a month. So that caused me to start a reach
46:24
Speaker 1: at my future. And we've got our patient program, so
46:28
Speaker 1: it's one on one. There's three components to it's getting
46:31
Speaker 1: you offered. You've got to change the way you think.
46:34
Speaker 1: If you don't change the way you think, just stay abslent,
46:36
Speaker 1: you're going to relapse. It's a certainty. And then getting
46:39
Speaker 1: them motivated up and about and looking forward to the future.
46:43
Speaker 1: And we're just about to open a residential in Dalsfit
46:47
Speaker 1: and it's an integrated Model's the first time anyone's ever
46:50
Speaker 1: done it. It's Monday to Friday, and you go home
46:53
Speaker 1: Friday night and come back Monday morning, and there's some
46:56
Speaker 1: things will get you to do over the weekend. But
46:59
Speaker 1: history tells me that where you have the family support you,
47:06
Speaker 1: and you have a structured environment and it's an environment
47:10
Speaker 1: that you can relate to, the chances of you succeeding
47:14
Speaker 1: are way better. So when I used to run retreats
47:18
Speaker 1: up in Balley, if you go into a traditional rehab
47:21
Speaker 1: here in Melbourne and there's fifteen of them, can't take
47:25
Speaker 1: your phone, can't take your laptop, can't speak to anyone
47:28
Speaker 1: for a week, You're not allowed to drink coffee, You're
47:30
Speaker 1: not allowed to drink lollies. It's insane because you've got
47:34
Speaker 1: to go back to your real life eventually, because you're
47:35
Speaker 1: living in a bubble and everything's done for you. So
47:38
Speaker 1: what we do is you can bring your laptop, you
47:40
Speaker 1: can bring your phone, you can bring your wife, as
47:42
Speaker 1: many to your partner, as many times you like. You
47:44
Speaker 1: can't do it while we're having a session, and we
47:47
Speaker 1: have lots of activity, So we get them to take
47:51
Speaker 1: them down there Burn Springs. We're going to take them
47:53
Speaker 1: to the gym, we'll go out and have coffee in
47:55
Speaker 1: the morning. You try and make it as normal as possible,
47:59
Speaker 1: because one of the years that people have coming out
48:03
Speaker 1: of a rehab is how am I going to relate
48:06
Speaker 1: at a party? How am I going to talk to
48:09
Speaker 1: people without alcohol? So when I was up in Balley,
48:12
Speaker 1: I never forget. At the end of the first week,
48:14
Speaker 1: I take the five or six clients down to the
48:16
Speaker 1: pub and we'd have a pool competition and they'd drink soda,
48:20
Speaker 1: water or coke or whatever. Second time I did it,
48:23
Speaker 1: I had to ring from another rehab interrupted your Graham.
48:25
Speaker 1: Were your clients at the hotel? Science said, yeah, he said,
48:28
Speaker 1: what are you doing? I said, I'm taking them out
48:30
Speaker 1: so as they have a social engagement and see that
48:33
Speaker 1: you can laugh, sing, dance and talk and you don't
48:35
Speaker 1: need to be full of ink or gear. He said,
48:38
Speaker 1: that's I said, Look, you run your rehab and I'll
48:40
Speaker 1: run mine. All right. I'm a huge believer that the
48:44
Speaker 1: more normalized your period of treatment is in terms of
48:48
Speaker 1: real life, the more unafraid you are and less susceptive
48:52
Speaker 1: of being triggered when you get out.
48:56
Speaker 2: Indeed, now the last point is you're doing something really difficult.
49:00
Speaker 2: You're trying to make a series TV series loosely based
49:04
Speaker 2: on your life.
49:05
Speaker 1: Going Yeah, pretty good. We've written it. It all came
49:08
Speaker 1: about when I had one of Australia's must want of
49:10
Speaker 1: my own actors up in Balley with me and we
49:12
Speaker 1: got talking one night and never hit in my head
49:15
Speaker 1: and the next month we decided we write a series.
49:17
Speaker 1: And because I've got the lived experience of how they talked,
49:22
Speaker 1: how they looked, how they did it, what happened, and
49:25
Speaker 1: having been involved in it, I've got to careful what
49:27
Speaker 1: I say here because the statute of limitations doesn't run.
49:31
Speaker 2: Is there more you haven't? Is there more you have
49:34
Speaker 2: knowned up to? This could be the moment. No, I'm
49:36
Speaker 2: not owning up to anything.
49:38
Speaker 1: What a shame. I'm taking confessions. We started writing it
49:42
Speaker 1: and it got to a point after about eighteen months
49:45
Speaker 1: I thought I got to finish this. Now I've started,
49:48
Speaker 1: I'm going to finish it. Such exciting. We've written it.
49:51
Speaker 1: We've got six episodes done. I've got the toe cutters
49:56
Speaker 1: coming down from Sydney who were famous in the seventies,
49:59
Speaker 1: got some courtroom scenes based on real court cases that
50:04
Speaker 1: haven't with some twists and variations. I've put a composite
50:08
Speaker 1: of two armed robbers from the day. They're both dead now,
50:12
Speaker 1: so it doesn't matter. So I've joined them up. And
50:14
Speaker 1: we've got this really elite armed robbery crew who are
50:18
Speaker 1: committing robberies, and we've got the arm robbery squad chasing
50:23
Speaker 1: them and gradually putting it together. And then you've got
50:27
Speaker 1: the lawyer who's getting way too close to him.
50:29
Speaker 2: He's way too handsome. I've I've seen the trailer if
50:32
Speaker 2: you live at his Air Graham, So yeah, look at
50:36
Speaker 2: you shiting. It's just another fantastic Well you are a
50:40
Speaker 2: complete renaissance of a story. You're seventy seven, and I
50:44
Speaker 2: wonder what will you.
50:46
Speaker 1: Do when you grow up? I won't know because I
50:48
Speaker 1: won't be here. What's left for you? Though? I don't know?
50:53
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got projects on the go at the moment,
50:55
Speaker 1: with my business, starting the residential up at Dalsford, got
50:59
Speaker 1: the TV series. I love my goal, so I'm trying
51:02
Speaker 1: to get better at that, and I'm just really enjoying life.
51:07
Speaker 1: So retirement has no attraction to me whatsoever. My view
51:12
Speaker 1: is you retirement, They catch you away in a pine
51:14
Speaker 1: box and so.
51:15
Speaker 2: To negle you though there's that one son who is
51:18
Speaker 2: in New Zealand that you still haven't managed to repair
51:21
Speaker 2: that damage. Is that still on your agenda? I live
51:24
Speaker 2: in hope that it will happen. Okay, good, I wish
51:26
Speaker 2: you were with that. Graham, thank you so much for
51:28
Speaker 2: coming in and sharing a story today. It's quite amazing
51:30
Speaker 2: to be honest. Thank you so much. That's Graham offer it.
51:38
Speaker 2: It is an amazing story. You should get his book.
51:40
Speaker 2: Never give up. But I'm sure there are people out
51:42
Speaker 2: there who are struggling with alcohol, with gambling.
51:47
Speaker 1: They might be on a path to crime.
51:49
Speaker 2: You might think that your personality is unchanging, that you
51:53
Speaker 2: have no choice in life, but it's always a choice.
51:57
Speaker 2: And I think Graham is a great example of someone
51:59
Speaker 2: who became the master of his own destiny and realized
52:02
Speaker 2: those things that made up what he was doing were
52:04
Speaker 2: not here him now simply attachments, simply attachments that can
52:09
Speaker 2: be cast off. And it's never too late to start.
52:13
Speaker 2: If you've got a crime you want to report, call
52:15
Speaker 2: Crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. If
52:18
Speaker 2: you don't trust the cops, you can always email me.
52:20
Speaker 2: Adam shannerwriter at gmail dot com. This has been Adam
52:24
Speaker 2: shann for Real Crime. Thank you for listening.
52:37
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
52:41
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52:44
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52:45
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52:45
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