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Hamas v Hamas: what a terror split means for hopes of peace · The Front

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  Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front.
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  Speaker 2: I'm christianami it It's Tuesday, October seven, twenty twenty five.
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  Speaker 1: The Victorian Director of Public.
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  Speaker 2: Prosecutions will appeal the life's sentences given to mushroom killer
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  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson. The state's top prosecutor said the sentence of
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  Speaker 2: life imprisonment with a non parole period of thirty three
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  Speaker 2: years was manifestly inadequate. Patterson was convicted in July of
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  Speaker 2: murdering three elderly relatives and attempting to murder another when
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  Speaker 2: she fed them beef Wellington's laced with deathcap mushrooms at
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  Speaker 2: a family lunch.
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  Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three.
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  Speaker 2: That story's live right now at the Australian dot com
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  Speaker 2: dot au. The Middle East is closer than ever to
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  Speaker 2: a peace deal, but in fighting among members of the
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  Speaker 2: militant group Hamas risks blowing the whole thing up. Its
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  Speaker 2: political leaders warned out of the conflict for good, but
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  Speaker 2: fighters on the grind in Gaza aren't prepared to walk away. Today,
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  Speaker 2: as the world marks two years since the deadly attack
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  Speaker 2: that sparked the Israel Hamas war, we ask if a
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  Speaker 2: terrorist group.
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  Speaker 1: Will give peace a chance.
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  Speaker 2: Downtown tel Aviv, a stone's throw from the glittering Mediterranean Sea,
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  Speaker 2: Israel's young and old gathered to remember, to grieve and
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  Speaker 2: on a day like today, allow themselves to hope.
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  Speaker 3: In an unprecedented surprise attack, the militant Hamas rulers of
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  Speaker 3: Gaza sent dozens of fighters.
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  Speaker 4: Into Israel by land, sea and air.
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  Speaker 5: So Hostages Square is a site in the center of
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  Speaker 5: Tel Aviv where families of captives and people who were
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  Speaker 5: killed on October seventh have been gathering since the start
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  Speaker 5: of the war.
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  Speaker 1: Joonnibishan is in Israel for the Australian and.
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  Speaker 5: It's partly a place where they can express solidarity with
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  Speaker 5: each other, where members of the public can speak to them,
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  Speaker 5: where they can conduct advocacy, but it's also a site
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  Speaker 5: of protest, and it's a place where every Saturday night, hundreds,
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  Speaker 5: if not thousands of people living in Tel Aviv and
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  Speaker 5: the broader surrounds of Israel they gather there and they
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  Speaker 5: protest largely at the government. And the people who come
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  Speaker 5: down there have a particular message that they want to
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  Speaker 5: send to the Prime Minister and his coalition, which is
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  Speaker 5: that they need to cut a deal, and Liam and
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  Speaker 5: I went there yesterday and we spent a lot of
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  Speaker 5: time just talking to the people on the ground.
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  Speaker 4: So the place is full of photographs.
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  Speaker 5: Of the people who were killed on October seventh, and
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  Speaker 5: people who were taken captive, and the people who have
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  Speaker 5: been returned. There are tents that have been set up
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  Speaker 5: where people can sit in the shade and just talk
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  Speaker 5: and actually, quite remarkably, what we did see yesterday, which
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  Speaker 5: neither of us had seen before, was a mock up
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  Speaker 5: or a replica of a gazen tunnel where the hostages
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  Speaker 5: are currently being held. And so this is something that's
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  Speaker 5: life signed that you can walk through and leam and
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  Speaker 5: I actually did that. We walked through one of these
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  Speaker 5: tunnels and it's rigged up with electricity speakers that emulate
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  Speaker 5: the sounds that the hostages might be hearing underground, and
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  Speaker 5: it's quite haunting and dark and kind of horrible and
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  Speaker 5: claustrophobic being in there, and it gives you a sense
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  Speaker 5: of what they're going through, except there's no light for
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  Speaker 5: them at the end of the tunnel, like we had
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  Speaker 5: I suppose if there is any light at the end
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  Speaker 5: of the tunnel, it's these negotiations that are ongoing right now,
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  Speaker 5: but we don't know where those are going to land.
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  Speaker 2: On that terrifying day two years ago, hundreds of civilians, men, women, children,
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  Speaker 2: babies and the elderly were taken hostage, hidden away by
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  Speaker 2: their captors in dark and winding tunnels under Gaza as
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  Speaker 2: they begged for their lives someone speaking. Forty eight living
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  Speaker 2: and dead are still there, But now, two years after
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  Speaker 2: they were stolen by the terrorists who seek Israel's destruction,
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  Speaker 2: there is hope of a homecoming.
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  Speaker 1: Overseas.
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  Speaker 3: President Trump's Special Envoy to the Middle East, Steve Whitcoff,
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  Speaker 3: and the President's son in law, Jared Kushner, are headed
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  Speaker 3: to Egypt this morning, hoping to nail down a peace
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  Speaker 3: deal between Israel and Hamas.
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  Speaker 2: Yonni, You've traveled to Israel and Gaza for the Australian
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  Speaker 2: several times since October seven, twenty twenty three. This time
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  Speaker 2: it appears the region is on the brink of a
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  Speaker 2: genuine peace deal that would see the forty eight remaining
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  Speaker 2: Israeli hostages released by Hamas. What's the energy like there
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  Speaker 2: right now?
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  Speaker 5: So what I can tell you is that since Leam
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  Speaker 5: and I arrived what both of us have noticed in
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  Speaker 5: a really resounding way is that everyone just really wants
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  Speaker 5: this to happen, and they want an end to the war,
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  Speaker 5: which means a lot of the young men and women
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  Speaker 5: who are serving on the front lines in Gaza can
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  Speaker 5: finally come out. And this is the kind of last
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  Speaker 5: of the seven or eight fronts that Israel has been
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  Speaker 5: fighting for the last two years.
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  Speaker 4: The people here want that to be over.
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  Speaker 5: And once it's over, I suppose there's a lot of
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  Speaker 5: healing that can begin, not just on the Israeli side,
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  Speaker 5: but also on the Gazan side. There's a lot of
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  Speaker 5: reconstruction work that needs to go into that place, and
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  Speaker 5: on the Israeli side there's a lot of reconstruction that
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  Speaker 5: needs to take place too, a lot of buildings necessarily,
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  Speaker 5: but probably of the national psyche. I think there are
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  Speaker 5: a lot of wounded people here, and certainly from our
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  Speaker 5: visits here over the last two years, we've noticed the
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  Speaker 5: place slowly deteriorate on a psychic level.
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  Speaker 4: The people here are exhausted, they're struggling.
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  Speaker 5: They don't want war, they never did want a war,
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  Speaker 5: but particularly now they want an end.
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  Speaker 4: They want Hamas to disarm.
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  Speaker 5: They want their hostages home and people just want to
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  Speaker 5: get on with their lives.
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  Speaker 2: Under the twenty point piece plan proposed by Donald Trump
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  Speaker 2: last week, Hamas has agreed to release all forty eight
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  Speaker 2: remaining hostages, living or dead, but only if there are
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  Speaker 2: proper field conditions. What does that actually mean, Yanni is
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  Speaker 2: Hummas looking for a way out of this agreement before
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  Speaker 2: it's even signed on the dotted line that it can
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  Speaker 2: pin on Israel for failing to create the conditions for
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  Speaker 2: the hostage's release.
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  Speaker 5: Well, that is a really interesting question because there are
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  Speaker 5: a lot of sticking points across this twenty point piece plan,
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  Speaker 5: and this concept of field conditions is slightly nebulous, And
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  Speaker 5: what it probably means is that Hamas expects the Israel
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  Speaker 5: Defense forces to pull whatever infantry and artillery and drones
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  Speaker 5: and whatever instruments that they're using as part of this war.
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  Speaker 4: They expect that to be pulled right out of Gaza.
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  Speaker 5: In other words, the IDF pulled back into Israel and
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  Speaker 5: having no presence in the Gaza strip. Now, the problem
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  Speaker 5: with that from the Israeli side is that if the
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  Speaker 5: Israelis do that, there is a possibility that will use
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  Speaker 5: the vacuum created by the idef's removal to then reassemble itself,
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  Speaker 5: rearm itself, and we're back.
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  Speaker 4: To where we started once again.
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  Speaker 5: So it's this careful balancing act between what the field
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  Speaker 5: conditions can look like so Hamas can disarm, and what
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  Speaker 5: the field conditions can look like so the Israelis can
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  Speaker 5: also pull out.
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  Speaker 4: And you've got a.
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  Speaker 5: Number of different diplomatic sides trying to work this out
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  Speaker 5: right now.
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  Speaker 4: In Egypt.
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  Speaker 5: Everyone wants to look outwardly positive about this deal. Everyone
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  Speaker 5: says outwardly that they support this steal. No one wants
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  Speaker 5: to be the first one to say we don't support
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  Speaker 5: this steal, but that's what everyone's contending with. So it
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  Speaker 5: would appear as though there's a lot of goodwill towards
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  Speaker 5: making this work, but there is some cynicism over whether
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  Speaker 5: it can actually be put into effect.
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  Speaker 2: Benjamin Netanya, who vowed in the aftermath of the attack
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  Speaker 2: on Israel that he wouldn't stop until Hamas was destroyed
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  Speaker 2: and that the hostages were home. Now neither of those
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  Speaker 2: things have happened, and yet he has agreed to this
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  Speaker 2: deal and called off the offensive largely in Gaza. Is
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  Speaker 2: it a k of the kind of diabolical evil, genius
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  Speaker 2: of Harmas's plan to take those two hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 2: hostages on October seven, that it's essentially the thing that's
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  Speaker 2: making peace a very real possibility in twenty twenty five.
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  Speaker 5: Well, I think it was diabolically evil for Hamas to
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  Speaker 5: take two hundred and fifty people hostage. And what we
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  Speaker 5: know about that particular strategy, and what we know about
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  Speaker 5: Kamas's leader in Gaza, Yahia Sinoa, who has been eliminated,
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  Speaker 5: and he was eliminated a year ago, is that the
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  Speaker 5: whole point of taking hostages was a strategy to create
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  Speaker 5: fractures within Israeli society. Kamas wanted to create fractures in
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  Speaker 5: Israeli society using the hostages by first creating a rift
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  Speaker 5: between those who felt that a deal need to be
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  Speaker 5: conducted to get them out and those who thought a
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  Speaker 5: military strategy to annihilate Hamas would be the way forward.
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  Speaker 5: Kamask gambled on the possibility that a massive military response
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  Speaker 5: would be forthcoming from Israel, and by dint of doing that,
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  Speaker 5: a large number of Palestinian civilians would be killed, and
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  Speaker 5: in the process of raising that casualty count, that death
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  Speaker 5: count in Gaza, world opinion would turn on Israel and
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  Speaker 5: at some degree turn Israel into a prior state, and
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  Speaker 5: to an extent, there would be people who would argue
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  Speaker 5: that Hamas has been highly successful in executing that strategy.
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  Speaker 5: That was the point of taking the hostages. The other
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  Speaker 5: point of taking hostages, of course, is that Hamas and
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  Speaker 5: other terrorist groups in the Middle East, particularly Hesbola and
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  Speaker 5: Lebanon and elsewhere, have been taking hostages for decades, and
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  Speaker 5: the point of taking Israeli hostages in particular is that
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  Speaker 5: they can then be traded or bartered back to Israel
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  Speaker 5: for the release of their prisoners held in Israeli jails.
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  Speaker 5: And that's been a very effective strategy since the start
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  Speaker 5: of this war, because you'll notice that the Israel Defense
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  Speaker 5: Force has been able to secure the releases of a
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  Speaker 5: small number of the original two hundred and fifty hostages
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  Speaker 5: that were taken. I think the number is approximately eight
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  Speaker 5: people that have been freed through military engagements. But what
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  Speaker 5: we know is the majority of hostages that have been
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  Speaker 5: released weren't released through the direct military engagements, but actually
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  Speaker 5: through ceasefire negotiations.
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  Speaker 4: Having said that, there are many.
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  Speaker 5: In the Hawkish Netnyahu government administration who would say, well,
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  Speaker 5: we only got Hummus in the negotiating table by executing
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  Speaker 5: harsh military strategies. So it's a double edged sword, and
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  Speaker 5: both sides are going to claim that it was their
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  Speaker 5: strategy that got us to where we are now. But
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  Speaker 5: as I said to your earlier question, all the Israeli
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  Speaker 5: public wants, and I dare say most people in the
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  Speaker 5: world just want to see and end to the fighting
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  Speaker 5: as soon as possible.
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  Speaker 2: Coming up, what does peace in the Middle East mean
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  Speaker 2: for the militant group at war with itself? Under Donald
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  Speaker 2: Trump's twenty point piece plan, members of Hamas who commit
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  Speaker 2: to end attacks on Israel and decommission their weapons will
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  Speaker 2: be given amnesty and if they want to leave Gaza,
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  Speaker 2: they'll be given safe passage to countries prepared to accept them.
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  Speaker 6: If the mass rejects the deal, which is always possible,
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  Speaker 6: they're the only one left. Everyone else has accepted it.
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  Speaker 6: But I have a feeling that we're going to have
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  Speaker 6: a positive answer. But if not, as you know, BB,
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  Speaker 6: you'd have bar fall back in to do what you
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  Speaker 6: would have to do. Everyone understands that the ultimate result
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  Speaker 6: must be the elimination of any danger posed in the
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  Speaker 6: region and the danger is caused by Hamas, and that's
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  Speaker 6: the sticking point.
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  Speaker 2: Not all members of her Mass are prepared to give
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  Speaker 2: up the cause. The militant group has been at war
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  Speaker 2: with itself since Donald Trump announced the peace plan at
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  Speaker 2: the White House last week. Her Mass members in Doha
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  Speaker 2: are prepared to sign on the dotted line, while those
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  Speaker 2: at the coal face in Gaza don't want to stop fighting.
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  Speaker 1: What do you think is.
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  Speaker 2: Inside the minds of the Hamas fighters the military leaders
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  Speaker 2: left in Gaza as these negotiations are happening. Are they
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  Speaker 2: resentful of the ones who got out?
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  Speaker 5: Do you think one has to wonder whether they're even
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  Speaker 5: thinking about them at all?
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  Speaker 4: For the Hamas fighters who were there.
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  Speaker 5: And one of the reasons why I would say that
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  Speaker 5: is because these are people who subscribe to a fanatical ideology.
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  Speaker 4: They actually had us, and they.
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  Speaker 5: See themselves as carrying out a holy war to retake
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  Speaker 5: the Holy Land, which in their minds does not belong
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  Speaker 5: in any way, shape or form to the Jewish people.
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  Speaker 5: So there's no space in that thinking for a two
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  Speaker 5: state solution. These are people who are locked in a
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  Speaker 5: mindset of carrying out the fighting at all costs, whether
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  Speaker 5: it's at the cost of their lives or the lives
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  Speaker 5: as the civilians who are caught in the crossfire.
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  Speaker 4: And it's going to be a very tricky task to
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  Speaker 4: try and talk down some.
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  Speaker 5: Of those elements to lay down their arms and to
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  Speaker 5: walk away or to reintegrate to society, whatever it looks
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  Speaker 5: like in the days moving forward, because they are indoctrinated
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  Speaker 5: with a fanatical ideology.
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  Speaker 2: Assuming Hammas agrees to the terms of this deal, what
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  Speaker 2: happens next. Will they be allowed to go on living
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  Speaker 2: their lives or is Maussade likely to quietly pursue surviving
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  Speaker 2: members of Hummas until it deems Hamas can never again
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  Speaker 2: be a threat to Israel.
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  Speaker 5: Well, what I can tell you is that history informs
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  Speaker 5: us that Israeli intelligence and its agencies in the past
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  Speaker 5: have gone after surviving members of terrorist groups that have
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  Speaker 5: perpetrated horrendous attacks on Jews, Israelis, or indeed on the
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  Speaker 5: Israeli state. I would say, in caution of that that
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  Speaker 5: the terms of this particular deal are such that were
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  Speaker 5: Israel to honor and agreement to give Hamas's leadership a
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  Speaker 5: safe passage out of Gaza, it would probably be hamstrung
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  Speaker 5: in pursuing those people once they're received by those receiving countries.
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  Speaker 5: There's always the possibility that in some distant future a
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  Speaker 5: person involved in the horrendous, heinous as of October seven
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  Speaker 5: winds up dying of quote natural causes or in some
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  Speaker 5: other circumstance that might look suspicious to authorities, and one
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  Speaker 5: can never really know. And the thing that I would
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  Speaker 5: also say about Israeli intelligence operations is that they're rarely,
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  Speaker 5: if ever attributed to Israeli intelligence, And that's the whole point.
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  Speaker 5: Israeli intelligence neither confirms nor denies its involvement in targeted
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  Speaker 5: assassinations that have occurred of some of its enemy leaders
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  Speaker 5: around the world in the past. Supposition usually links them
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  Speaker 5: to it, so it's a difficult question to answer. I
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  Speaker 5: think the reasonable person would assume that those involved in
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  Speaker 5: what happened on October seven probably have a clock ticking.
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  Speaker 5: On the other hand, if certain individuals are promised safe
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  Speaker 5: passage out, they may.
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  Speaker 4: Just have a few years left.
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  Speaker 2: Joanni Bishan is in Israel for The Australian. He and
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  Speaker 2: our colleague Liam Mendez are reporting live from Israel. Join
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  Speaker 2: our subscribers for the latest at the Australian dot com
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: dot au