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Session 4- Philippians Jack Johnson- Autumn Bible School 25 · Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, good evening everybody.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: So um Jack is going to be doing our first session, but um I'm gonna do a quick little recap for those of us uh who weren't here last week.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: So last week we talked about uh basically chapter two in the first half of chapter three.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Did anyone raise their hand?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Anything that stood out to you from last week, anything that you remember?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Anything that sort of struck you at all?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: Or I've not just interested to see to see what landed or not.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: But um last week, um if um those of you were here um remember, we basically were doing it was basically the practical.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: We'd had a couple of weeks of slightly more sort of theory, we had that kind of the Christ hymn in week two, that you know, the the kind of the poem that was a bit like highbrow and and you know theological.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then last week we were basically doing a bit more like, right, okay, what does this mean?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: So um we looked at um working out our salvation.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: What does work out mean?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: What does salvation mean?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, looking at that kind of present, continuous um sanctification, the kind of making holy.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what does it look like to exist in and work out that in conjunction with God, him animating, empowering that kind of holification process, but we're also actively participating in that as well.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: And a couple of examples that Paul gave us, uh, Timothy and Apaphroditus, too like, well, this guy, here's what he's doing, he's great, isn't he?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: This guy, here's what he's doing, isn't he great as well?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so that was a kind of a practical networking for us.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh Catherine, uh Catherine Penn shared with us as well and led us in some discussion about a few more slightly slightly thornier questions of what does it look like to work this out in our practical reality?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: We talked a little bit briefly around swearing, you know, is that is that something that's allowed?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Paul does that.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Paul talked about the difference between you know the sort of the human-level achievements.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he said, I've done all this stuff, but it it's nothing to me.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: And these people, you know, the the he c he calls them the circumcision, they're trying to make you focus on all that physical stuff, but actually it's Jesus that's the most important.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's where we were uh at the end of last week.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're gonna start this week, uh chapter three, uh verse 11 to 21.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: Jack's gonna come up and speak to us.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I wonder, um, would anyone like to read for us?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh one of our values in Bible school is reading the Bible out loud.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this was a letter that was not uh you know not read um in verses and chapters, but this would have been read out loud to the church that um that received it.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_03: It would have been read out loud in one chunk, and that's a value that we really try and follow uh in Bible school.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: So would anyone here like to like to read just uh a few verses for us?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh 10 verses from chapter three.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: Cool.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'll let Jack come get set up uh whilst we listen to chapter three, eleven to twenty-one.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_11: Can I go from ten?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_11: Because it's on the middle of the verse.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: By all means.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_11: So I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of sharing in his suffering, becoming like him, him his death.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_11: And so somehow to obtain the resurrection from the dead.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_11: Not that I have already obtained all this or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_11: That for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_11: Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_11: But one thing I do, forgetting what is behind and straying towards what is ahead, I press on towards the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenless in Christ Jesus.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_11: All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_11: And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_11: Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_11: Am I carrying on?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_11: Where's you?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh to twenty-one three.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_11: Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_11: For as I have often told you before, and now say again, even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_11: Their destiny is destruction, their God is their stomach, and their glory is their shame.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_11: Their mind is on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_11: So no.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, thank you.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, nice and simple.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so just going to start us off with some, I hope why you think are very easy questions.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what does it mean to attain resurrection from the dead?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And why does Paul use this phrase rather than the phrase ascend to heaven?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're directed heavenwards, but he doesn't say we'll go to heaven.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: So what why is he pushing on resurrection?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_11: Also, in the past, people who ascended to heaven haven't always been dead.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Enoch and Elijah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Where do they go?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Where are they going?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_11: They missed that stuff.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_11: Do you not pass going?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_11: Do you want to go?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where do we go when we die?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: How do you define like what is us?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Is it your physical body or is it?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: What do the Greeks think?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: In Paul's world of the day.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone know that?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_10: You have an essence, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: You have an essence, yeah.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: And you have a uh physicality, and the physicality is like evil, corrupted, broken.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's where your so and like Elysium, your soul goes to a good place, but your physical form stops.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's good, because the physical form is bad.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul doesn't talk about that, he talks about you attain resurrection from the dead.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Your body is brought back.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why does that matter?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Does it matter?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_10: That's what makes us human.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: At least part of maybe what makes us human.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: And like the the Greek idea that the body is just bad, that the body stops, is not the Judeo-Christian work.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: The physical form is good.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: God created you.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: In the creation narrative, at the end of every day, and it was good.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: The physical, the creation is a good thing.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul doesn't like uh orientate Philippians to be about, well, we're all going to pass away, and that would be great, because there'll be no more body, which is bad.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, our bodies will return, and that's good.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um this is something we see in sort of wider uh Christian thought.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: So anyone know what this is?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: The Nicene Constant and it's the Constantinople version of the Nicene Creed.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: We uh we look for the resurrection of the dead, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's a good thing.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so here are some questions then, in light of that, to discuss in little groups.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Why is it important that we remember that we'll may be made physically new?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Does this affect how we think about people and ourselves?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Does this affect how you approach disability, scars, injuries?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And will I be dyslexic in the new creation?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Have a chat.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_13: It's not like what you want to do.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_13: So I can't find my sky.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_10: Why is it what's that?
• 11:54
  unknown: Well, I have a chocolate.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Will I be dyslexic in the new creation?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hands up for yes.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hands up if Jack will be dyslexic in the new creation.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_11: Can we say hands up for could be?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: No, yes and no.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: I like binary answers just for this purpose.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Not in general.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone else think no then?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Hands up for no?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_07: Say that again.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Will I be dyslexic in the new creation?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_07: Can you hope to be?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_07: But I don't think.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, but yes or no right now.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm saying yes.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes or no?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about these things in a moment.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: We can all change our mind in five minutes, that's fine.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying yes.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Who's saying no?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, camp.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Why will I be dyslexic in the new creation?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_11: Why wouldn't you be dyslexic in the sink?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: No camp, why wouldn't I be dyslexic in the equation?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_11: So is neurodiversity a trauma response, or is it a personality trait?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_11: Or is it genetic?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_11: Is it informed of it?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_11: Is it inherited?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_11: All of that stuff.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_11: So those questions are kind of like linked into what we were talking about whether our personality is preserved.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think the answer to those questions, how much does the answer to those questions matter?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: It matters if So like depending on you listed like four things there.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Does it ch which ones are yes I would be, which ones were no, I wouldn't be?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_11: So the things that preserve Jack as being Jack, I want to still be in heaven.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_11: Thank you.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_11: But also the Christ-like things.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you list so like trauma response.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: That does affect who I am.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying dyslexia is a result of trauma, but like in general that would affect who I am.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: So does that go or not go?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_11: So I I guess what I was trying to say by that is there are some personalized traits that are trauma-related from the way that we understand them.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_11: And I wouldn't want necessarily people to carry that trauma and that troubled in a squid into head, but I want them to be there.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_11: So although we're interested by our lives and our stories and the positives and negatives and formed us and shaped us, I don't want people to be uh to carry that pain with them.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really fair.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: But do we agree?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_07: Well I agree with that, but I think dyslexia is a completely different thing to do.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: But let's like broaden it.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: We can broaden this.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm using me as an example because I don't think it's fair to use other people as examples.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Basically.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: But like if we were to expand it into yeah, if we were to expand it to other like what we might call disabilities.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_14: Where's the line?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_14: I mean if you mention me, Jenny, we're not you anymore, are you?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_14: Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_14: And then you mentioned personality.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_10: I think everything that happens to us is for a reason that's the building character, right?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_10: And if you take away the things that has have happened to you, you change as a person.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_10: Your essence of Jesus.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_08: Why do I care whether your essence of who you are changes?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_08: Because my focus isn't on you, it's on Jesus.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_08: Well, I'm in heaven, so I don't really care.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_08: I don't really care whether you're like you're like, because I won't even I won't pay much attention to you.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Does God care though?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, but about me.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: No, does God care about me?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: I know, but does God care about me?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So does he care about who I am individually?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_08: I think I think he wants you to be the best version of you as you can be.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, because it's f I think it's uh that's his.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_08: I couldn't care less.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a fair person that you won't care, can't might not care less.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: You might as well, because I think humans are relationally wired.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that changes in the that's what I'd say.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_08: I I I think would I not be wired slightly differently because my focus is no longer, for example, on my wife or my children, where I probably have a disproportionate focus.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_08: If I have that disproportionate focus in heaven, am I not able uh am I not fulfilling the role that I see that I will have in heaven, which is glorifying God and spending all my time.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: That probably depends a little bit on how we define glorifying God, right?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like um, do all things to the glory of God.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where's that?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's Paul somewhere.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Can't remember.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: But if all things are if all things properly orientated are to the glory of God, then that includes relational dynamics.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_07: Surely God always wanted um a relationship with us, so that's not just one way, is it?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_07: Well, I don't know, it's just a question out there.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_07: I I wouldn't have thought of it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_07: I agree with this just to focus on him, I think.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that seems to be what's happening in what we see in Genesis and in sort of mirrored in John.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: What what happens if we say, like, if we take dyslexia and then we apply that to other disabilities, what does answering yes or no to that question like affect how we think about those things?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_11: Are we giving them a moral value?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_11: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_11: Are we giving them a good needle?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_11: Or are we introducing something more to them than what they are?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: And let's take physical disability.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Will those people have physical disabilities in the creation?
• 17:31
  unknown: Maybe.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why maybe?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_07: I think so, but I I don't know, do I think that's a good idea?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's fine.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: We we can all operate here under the like position that we don't know, right?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's I think that's okay.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also okay, I think, to us to say those things and also change our mind in ten minutes after a discussion.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so that's just like I want us to feel okay about just saying what we want to talk about right now.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: The difference between uh a genetic or progenital disability and an acquired disability, for example, you know, or actually the leg and a bomb last or something.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Will that person who was by the action of a sinner at the end of the world changed physically in classic in a way that wouldn't Will that person be fully employed?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: My instinct would suggest yes, but then will someone who has like a general or you know, uh neurological disability, how do you want to syndrome or boldness from the heart, their inherent genetic makeup?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: With that person, I would find that hard as well because I mean if you have a memory, but they are if you remember their personality, their structure, their makeup is completely different than what makes a man, inherent type that condition feels to me.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: But then you believe Jesus had scars after he was resurrected.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that would be a light.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Paul ties this, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: He's in verse 21 he says, uh, who by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus' glorious body is resurrected and scarred.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_07: Does it matter?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's important to say that as well, like on people who I know with disabilities, this is like a split down the middle.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know some people, I have a friend who said to me a couple months ago, it's like, I'm gonna have my wheels in heaven.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it was a great line.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I know some people who would just categorically say, I really hope not.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: And some of that's about how you think about disability.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is disability uh you are disabled by the world?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or is disability an inherent thing about you?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And depending on the disability and depending on the person, you might see those things differently.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, sorry.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I the reason I'm struggling to answer that question is I I don't know, maybe I'm projecting.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I do find um because I lack a theology about what's happening in heaven and how we're going to be, because you know, there's books I haven't been into and all sorts.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm guessing now, like you know, so I'm like, what are we talking about?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as in what's supposed to be happening in your creation, so how can I answer the question with without that you know, I feel there's a gap there?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess the important thing is how does this affect how we think about people and ourselves today?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is the second question, but really I guess it should be like the last one.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: If we think about this church, for example, this church now has a ramp.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Tim, I I don't know if you know, when this I'm assuming there wasn't a ramp for the door originally.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_12: When it was built in Victorian times, there was certainly no ramp.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_12: No.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the same is true on the old porch, right?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Were there disabled people in the Victorian era?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_07: I think it's something we've probably carried.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_07: It's just a different, it's it's developed as we wanted as humans, we have developed that way.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_07: Whether that's God's way, that's the same thing.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would say that I would say lots of churches are built in ways that disenfranchise and prevent access to certain people.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Historically.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's also true of church congregations.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um if you there's in St Andrews, which is where I studied, the there's a church congregation that formed because the traditional church introduced a Pew tax in order to force the working class out.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: of the church.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_07: That is a human thing.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's totally a human thing, yeah yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And like the building of the church is a human thing.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_14: Can I can I just say I I know because you you seem to be um focusing on uh physical disabilities but as uh as an obvious disability between project and um maybe uh triple MPT4.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_14: For instance I know uh someone who was a Philomite and he RCS from her so that that formed his character for me.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_14: So that wasn't just a physical disability that was who he was a very quick temper.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_13: I'm sure that was linked to that.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I can't remember there's a I find it difficult to differentiate between the physical and mental there's a really uh powerful interview I can't remember what his name is now um a U it's a US uh guy with Down syndrome who's testifying to the like equivalent of a select committee on abortion on the basis of Downs and he has downs and he's obviously testifying on the basis that that shouldn't be permitted and his testimony is so interesting and powerful I I think his name's like Frank Stevens or something like that.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: Highly recommend going and having a watch at that because he's like I live a full and like incredible life and Dan Cinder is part of that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: That won't be everybody's experience of it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_07: But that's because of the human element not because of God's element and if we're talking about the future I would hope we were all sympathetic to everyone somehow because that's what God is but I guess I guess tied to the human element though is that there's a reality that if we are to be resurrected and live in some sort of new creation that those challenges do they stop?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do they how do they how are they changed?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because how is one's like we all have an individualized experience right and I I can be really happy that I'm dyslexic 75% of the time right and then I go and like I get people to proofread my stuff and then I s then I had to get it like my PhD every chapter was proofread three or four times and then I still had to pay 1400 pounds to get a professionally proofread and there were still mistakes that's really annoying and really expensive.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's only because my brother was very generous that I could afford to do that.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_07: But I'm that's privileged and I'll never have a PhD and I get frustrated on things but that doesn't make you know our experiences are different and that's the same as you can say let's talk about autism that's the latest thing but as a spectrum are you going to say that people aren't going to be autistic and yet they they they struggle in our world but they should be struggling if everybody thought they were just you know so but then I guess this is where the side I I would say that some level of communication is always miscommunication.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_07: I think we've like this gentleman was saying we should still be focusing on what Jesus or what God would be doing in our situations anyway.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: So what does Jesus do with disability in the New Testament?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: He heals people when how life when they want when they want it in general 90% of the time not always 90% of the time like um the funniest story I find I find it and I find it very funny at least is the one that gets captured in blind Barmaeus and Jesus says I think he's coming out of Jerusalem and it says this blind man was beside the road and he says Jesus Jesus Jesus and Jesus goes up to him and goes what do you want and the blind man goes I want to see and it I think it's quite funny because it's like sort of written as though it's obviously he wants to see but Jesus waits for the question.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_07: But he always wants that person to think of not the physical thing first isn't it he wants them to when he says you're going to be healed he's not only talking about the bodies he's talking about their spirit their mind their perception of healing is more is more regenerative than than just the physical but the physical's real I would say like does the blind man call him over because he wants his sins forgiven or because he has a practical need?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the practical need.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that's where it stops you know like that's that's relational dynamics again right like what happens to these people after this where do all these disciples come from in the first century for example these people who have interacted with Jesus that I'll connect with the word so is it the Greek opposite the Greek to mean saved means healed all that saved means outright to heal the opposite salvation in the same way as the episode Jesus talked about what it was about sins or given sins and also the principle healing so it wasn't separated but it was and that's but I found that story fascinating because Jesus seems not concerned at least at the beginning of that story with physically healing him like he he his friends seem to take him probably at his request that seems to be the implied to me and like dig through the ceiling and are like heal him and Jesus goes your sins are forgiven and walks off and then everyone in the room is like what who's this person who thinks he can forgive sins and then he heals him as an expression of his power the physical doesn't seem to concern him in the I just find that fascinating and I think the way that this sort of plays out is well how do we think about ourselves like do we think of our ourselves as broken?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And of course all of us are whether you're disabled or not you're broken in some way that's the nature of the world that's the nature of the fall well I guess I guess there's a there's a there's an original the nature of original sin.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: So like so some people would look at disability and be like that's brokenness some whereas some people with disabilities would say that isn't what brokenness is.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't mean that those people are not broken.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: It just means that it might not be the disability that is the thing.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_11: Yeah part of the problem I have with the argument which is academic and slightly esoteric is that as Dan was saying with the acquired the longer you live the more broken your body becomes so if you die old do you come back old?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_11: Is the new body a new body or is the new body the body you had when you died?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: In which case that becomes very problematic as no I think it's a really good point because what we're talking about like um what's the difference between Jesus and Lazarus or Jairus's daughter?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: They die again yeah and also they are what Tom Wright calls like revification not resurrection.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Those are separate things Jesus is resurrected something he he is glorified due to his resurrection something is different.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: While there are things that are the same he eats and he talks and he sleeps he also is not oft he sometimes is not recognized but he still bears the scars.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: So there are these like elements of sameness and there are these elements of difference and I think we should I know I made us all vote and be binary at the beginning but in general I don't think we should try and I think we should avoid those binaries.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And yes there will be things about us all that are different.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think with like thinking about the physical I think this is really important for like church community life because it is the common experience of disabled people that going forward for prayer that people assume that they want prayer for physical healing.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: That might sound weird to you but that is something that is a crazy common experience where people just assume that you're in a wheelchair therefore you want prayer for your legs.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_14: But is that because that's the part that they conceive is broken then?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or what they assume is what they assume is yeah there's an assumption there is not what seems to be the practice of Jesus which is how can I pray for you?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: When we think about church architecture and access that's important to those questions as well.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: When we think about how we do church on a Sunday for like your ADHD you're autistic you're dyslexic what font is your worship words in what colours are on the background?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like what do you do with access?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think those are important questions if we are to be true community family whatever word you want to use there right?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because like your point you were making earlier like well if all of this does all of these things go away when we are in more perfected community maybe but I think we're cool to try and embody that now any questions on that before we move on slightly okay so um there we go this is is this the right verse?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes this is verse 14 and 15 I press on towards the goal to win the price which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: All of us then who are mature should think should take a view of such things and if on some point you think differently that too God will make clear to you.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: Only let us live up to that which we have already attained so how do we make sense of verse 15 when we have already seen that we have different opinions on theological issues?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean like that the idea that God will make these things clear to you is the word mature in this sentence important?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And if so what does it mean in this context?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Have a little chat how long have I got done six hours ten minutes okay I would find twelve things I think that's the I just want to wait for the right how do differences of opinion make sense within this context then question one What does it mean for God to make clear those things to you if you think differently relationship isn't it with your attentive and you want to learn you want to follow your right with you in principle hands up if you think women should be in church ministry hands up if you think women should be in church ministry or should be allowed to preach maybe is a more broad question.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: How many Christians are there in Bristol who would disagree with you not really Christians.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Are they not really Christians?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right are they not right are they not open to the are they not open to the correction of the spirit that would seem to me a harsh judgment to make and would they say that about me?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like always invert it right what would they say about me?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: What do we do with that tension?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_07: And probably would that change if you said how many people think this who are over 70 and under 20 probably you get different results in the Maybe maybe and so what church background potentially although not always and these change depending on like the Reformation makes a huge difference to that particular question for example are they to be a Peter that's probably more dependent on believing children.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Clothes more than one oxygen right we're getting legalistic yeah which which laws are real which laws are true which laws matter and this doesn't seem to be about legalism right what is it about what is it in verse 16 the immediate follow on only let us live up to what we have already attained.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why is that the next sentence how are you supposed to live in the resurrection yeah we are supposed to what is it what does he just say press on towards the goal to win the prize which God has called you and then he follows that with all of us who are mature should take such a view of things.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_12: What does it mean to be mature I think in the literal sense it means that we've had time to I mean if something is mature it has had time to gain flavour I mean in terms of the food context so but in Timothy he says don't look like let anyone look down on you because you're young I don't necessarily think is experience but also it doesn't have to be.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_12: If I have had say I'm in a really blessed unfortunate situation where I'm really young yet I've had a a really authentic and meaningful exposure to church I might be young but I'd still say my faith in some sense is mature.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we're thinking now about spiritual maturity.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: When he talks about maturity here he's not necessarily talking about our age he's talking about who you are in your relationship with Christ.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that also doesn't have to be like also doesn't have to have taken a long time either right there are lots of people who who've been Christians a very long time who are not spiritually mature.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: And there are lots of people who've been Christians a very short amount of time who seem very spiritually mature.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think this links back to in chapter one in chapter one he says and this is my prayer that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Where else does Paul talk about fruit?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Galatians Galatians 5 going the wrong way that's the right Galatians 5 22 to 23 but the fruit of the spirit is love joy peace forbearance kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness and self-control against such things there is no law by the power of the spirit you will grow in these things so in Philippians 3 we have this connection between um the idea that you enter into relationship with God and you grow in maturity with him right and God will make things clear to you right but but the primary thing we do is live into what we've already attained.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: But what is it exactly that God is making clear to you I don't know if that's totally spelled out I don't know I wouldn't say that this verse is saying well you're all going to have the exact same theology otherwise clearly one of you is immature.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's what's going on.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there are ways of disagreeing well and ways of disagreeing badly and I think if we think about the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and gentleness that is often not the way in which we disagree.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is that fair?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so maturity in terms of like theological disagreement I think can be trying to to like be kind to your opponent to be gentle with them showing forbearance when it really annoys you right there's lots of theology that really annoys me.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I write a blog partly not entirely but partly like because I think there should be good theology in a space on the internet where there's lots of bad theology.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's also why it's not behind a paywall.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like those things I think are important.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's important to engage in that discourse but it's important to engage in that discourse in a relatively nice way.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean you don't call people out doesn't mean you don't question what someone thinks it doesn't even mean you don't say that view is stupid because of this reason.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_12: Sometimes views are stupid there might be nicer and nastier ways of saying that though I had it pointing out to me recently that actually especially in my disagreement and that it's a final because yes we should be gentle and we we should be patient and we should be kind but actually not necessarily nice.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_12: If someone is wrong that actually often the nice thing to do or sorry the kind thing to do is to tell them they're wrong.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_12: The nice thing is to be roll over and let it you know but if it's incorrect or maybe stupid uh theology then actually the kind of hang on a second, why do you think that?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_12: Okay maybe try this and say what would you think about this?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and also picking our moments There are times not to do that.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably not appropriate to stand up during the sermon and be like, you're wrong, you stupid heretic.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not kind.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Probably not kind?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first time preacher.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or whoever it is, right?
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: The 50th time, a thousandth time preacher.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: Not kind.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Approaching them afterwards, maybe kinder.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Give it another day or two, might be the kinder still.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Any questions about that?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that the challenge though that um you know we are growing and maturing, you know, in uh in individual ways.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, I I don't like using the linear thing, but where someone might be more mature in love and someone more mature in faithfulness, and it's all a mishmash, but we're all maturing it with different things.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the challenge, isn't it?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's a term in um like football called uh non-linear progression.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that you progress but in ways that sometimes look like you're going backwards.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you see that with like certain players who only become professionals like later in to their careers, right?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like it looks like they take backward steps, but those steps are really important for their personal development.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's often true with us.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's true that I think I've dealt with something, and we're like, great, move on to the next thing, and then the other thing comes back in a new way or a different way.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, I'm angry again.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_02: What's that about?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: What just changed in my life?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: These things I think are a continual process.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and this is why I think in verse 15 it's that, well, we should be pressing on towards the goal.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: That goal is relationship, right?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: All of Christianity is not like the goal is not so we attain resurrection from the dead.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Resurrection from the dead is attained because you are in relationship with Christ.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's the presence of the Spirit, the presence of Christ in your life that allows you to develop, to grow.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the fruit, the blessings come from that.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone disagree?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: Think the same?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Any thoughts, comments, concerns?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_06: Come on, we talk about um when Jesus got on that tree and he cursed the fruit tree.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, weird.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Weird story.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: No idea what to do with it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh I don't have an answer to that question.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: I saw something that was read recently that actually kind of related it back to Genesis and been actually figs being related to the big leaves, obviously.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that I mean you've used to come up with that.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know, I'm afraid.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a theologian, not a biblical scholar.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: My get out clause.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's that's my final sort of section.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember if I've got any questions.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have any more questions?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I guess what does this look like for Woodlands then?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: All of this, everything we talked about in the last 40 minutes.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: What does that look like for Woodlands then?
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_11: You talked about there being no absolute truth when it comes to theology, and no one has it all right.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: Not quite.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Not quite that.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: There are some, there is a very small amount of primary things.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Trinity, Christology.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: And even those are minimal.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: So the church creeds are, Oliver Chris talks about them as they aim for dogmatic minimalism.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: So they aim to say you cannot say this.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you cannot say Jesus is less than the Father.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: You cannot say Jesus has a divine brain and a human body.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: For example.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: There are things you cannot do.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: But what how exactly you talk about Trinity or Christology, that is a bit more left open to you.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: There are just certain things you cannot do.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: After that, pretty much everything becomes secondary.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_11: So we have to agree on the primaries and then the secondaries we can discuss and I was just drawn to the passage in John where uh he's describing Christ's prayer.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_11: Well, I'm not quite sure how to have Johnny word for it, but Jesus said to us from us.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_11: He prays for us to be with one and on the same page, preaching the same story.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_11: So I guess it depends on how much you talk about that thing, it depends on the primary sort of sectors or how much of that.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think whether it's some of that is whether we some things don't matter, but they matter a bit to me.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_11: It matters more the way that we've that we're unified than it does that we agree on every single little thing.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: Can I go to a church and worship even if I don't fully agree with their theology?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Can I sing the worship songs that I really dislike in a worshipful way?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Can we sing Jesus can we sing my lighthouse in church?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Awful theology.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: A lighthouse's purpose is to send you away from the shore.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus' purpose is to say, come here.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Opposite problematic metaphor.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: Is it that big of a that big of an issue?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_12: Unless it's a harbour.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_12: A harbour.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: Still, you've got to avoid the bit of rock though to get into the harbour, right?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes there's gonna be a lot of people.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but then we can we can go further, we can talk about ancient science children's easier one.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or like uh Christ be magnified, great song, apart from the single line of I won't be formed by feelings.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: Of course you will be.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: Terrible bit of theology.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: Can I still engage in worship in church that?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I absolutely should try.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: It will still probably annoy me a lot of the time.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm gonna try always and move past that.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because the biggest thing I had in my second year theology degree was like trying to move through worship and still worship, despite being like, ah, I don't like that word.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: I had to move past that, and I have to move that past that with like my brothers and sisters who love Jesus do not think the same thing as me.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's that great quote from um leader of the unions uh opposed to Thatcher in like the 70s and 80s, who's like the most disappointing thing is that he got to meet G she got to meet Jesus first when she died.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: But he he's like, she's a Christian.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see her soon.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: We can be diametrically opposed, politically, theologically, and still worship together.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: That is a I don't know if that quote is specifically accurate, but go Google it.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I think it is probably down the time though.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: But ask me at the end.
• 51:25
  unknown: Hey.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, mate.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: What we'll do, first of all, is we'll read the Bible together again.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: So um we'll be doing chapter four.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh does someone want to read?
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: Basically, chapter four is the end.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: The the bits that we haven't done yet.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Is anyone up for doing a little reading?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, mate.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: Alright, chapter four.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_12: Closing appeal with so far's mass and unity.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_12: Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_12: I plead with Yoya and I plead with Sunday to be of the same mind in the Lord.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_12: Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have to contend that my side in the cause of the plants and the rest of my co-workers.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_12: Rejoice in the Lord always.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_12: I'll say it again.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_12: Rejoice.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_12: That's your lesson to be able to always say.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_12: Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me or seen any, but it's good in practice.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_12: And God became thanks for that, yes.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_12: I rejoice greatly in the Lord that I you knew you were concerned for me.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_12: Indeed, you were concerned.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_12: You have an opportunity to show.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_12: I'm not saying it's because I have a need.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_12: Or I learned to be content, whatever the circumstances.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_12: I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_12: I learned the secret of being content in any kind of situation.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_12: Whether well fed, hungry, whether living in plenty or not.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_12: Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_12: In the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel when I set out from Anistonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving a receipt.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_12: Or even when I was a lawyer, you sent me aid more than one chart that I was in need.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_12: Not that I desire gifts.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_12: What I desire is more accredited in your account.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_12: I have received full payments and more than amply supply now that I have received the gifts you said.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_12: They are a fragrant offering.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_12: And my God will need all you need according to the riches of the glory of Christ.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_12: To our God and Father be glory forever and ever.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_12: Amen.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_12: Final greetings.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_12: Greet all God's people in Christ Jesus.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_12: Brothers and sisters who are with me, send greetings.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_12: All those people here send greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you in spirit.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_12: Amen.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_12: Amen.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: We made it.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Hello everyone.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: Four weeks.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: We've done the whole Bible.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: It feels like we've done some of the Bible.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: We've done the whole Bible.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Next time we'll be doing the whole Bible in four weeks.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: You can join us then.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: So this is where we're at.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: We're at the end.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: Where does this little chapter go?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's quite a lot in here.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: But this is a rough little kind of blueprint of uh of what we're gonna see.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna see more joy.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Again, just that recurring theme.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: Paul is just, he's so happy right here.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: We get practical applications, we get um one of those is this conflict resolution.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: We have these two women you earlier in Syntique, you know, never mentioned again, but we get some some conflict resolution tips and we get some thanksgiving.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's the end, basically.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's quite it's it's much more simple.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_03: We have this um verse verse one, which in your Bibles might be sort of tacked onto the end of that section before before little heading says exhortations.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's just it's kind of a linking verse.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's basically Paul saying, right, that theology bit, part that we've finished, moving on to some some practical application.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: So first of all, we we straight away have these two women, Euodia and Sintouke.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: And what is what's going on there?
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's it's worth reflecting on for a moment.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's sort of two Greek names, two women who who lived thousands of years ago who don't relate to us necessarily in any way.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: But he's calling them out publicly, and that's quite important because Paul, you know, he's only got you know a couple of pages here, and he dedicates this section to these two women and some conflict that we we don't necessarily know anything about.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: But remember what we said at the start, this letter would be read out in front of the whole church.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine here?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if I said, Tim, Jack, please, guys, stow it.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, do you want to mean like actually that's the context?
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's what would happen.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: And this would be, you know, they'd all be gathering together as church, and two people are called out by name.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: Sort it out.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's quite impactful.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's something to be considered there.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: What do we know about what's going on?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, obviously, not a great deal based on what we can read in that verse or two, but we can know a few things.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we can know it's probably not a doctrinal difference, a bit like some of the discussions we've been having.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: This church is is well taught, they love God, or in all the right ways.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't say anything really about them doing something that's wrong theologically.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's probably a personal difference that's driving them, and you know, clearly, to an extent, the church apart.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: He's dedicated time and space, and you know, letters were really, really expensive at the time.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: You have a parchment, you have someone writing them, you have to have someone physically carry it.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: Space is limited, and he's dedicating space to this.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_03: So it's clearly impacting the church in some way.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: But what he does is he gives us a model with how to resolve conflict.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we just ask the question: how do we disagree agreeably?
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: What happens when two people have fallen out in the church?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, this is actually a really good way of looking at it.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, Paul is a church leader, he's also a leader of churches as well.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: He's clearly, you know, one of the prime figures in the early church movement.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: How he deals with this conflict is something that we can learn from.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_03: So, what does he do?
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, he starts by appealing to each of them through a personal relationship.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: He he he recalls their shared experience, he pleads with them.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_03: He says, literally, I plead with Yodio, I plead with Sunsuke.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: He he equalizes them in that way.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't say, Right, you uh and you, you know, like I'm gonna bang your heads together.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_03: He addresses them directly and he requests.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he he probably would be within his rights to say, I'm ordering you to stop now.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: But he doesn't do that.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: He asks them, you know, that word plead is quite strong, isn't it?
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: He he's saying, I plead with you.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: We know elsewhere, you know, Paul is not shy about banging some heads together when he needs to.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: But he doesn't do that.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: He's much more pastoral here, and that's interesting.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: He actually praises them as women who have, you know, they've put alongside him.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_03: They've been through a lot together.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_03: They are women who have contended at my side in the course of the gospel.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: He's praising them.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, guys, remember what we've been through.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: Don't let whatever is going on here damage that.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: Remember the things we've achieved together as a team.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_03: He says, remember your identity in the Lord.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_03: Agree with each other in the Lord.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't say you have to support the same team and eat food the same way and you know, enjoy life in the same way, but he says, remember your identity is in the Lord.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: They've forgotten who they are.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: But if they do remember that, it's going to help them to reconcile.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_03: If they're both truly in the Lord, then you know those core doctrinal certainties that they're all standing on will help them to remember that they need to be in loving relationship with one another.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: They'll realize that bitterness and strife and conflict, that's incompatible with the loving relationship that there should be in the family of Jesus, and that's necessary for the church to thrive.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: They're united in their identity as citizens of heaven.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's the most important thing.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know, verse 20 right there, literally two verses before.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: Our citizenship is in heaven.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_03: You and Sintouke have forgotten that their joint citizenship should unite them rather than their personal differences, separate them.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then interestingly, he also asks for mediation.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: He asks that the leaders on the ground to sort of pitch in a bit.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_03: He says, you know, loyal yoke fellow, you know, whoever this is being written to, you know, that maybe that's a name, maybe it's a title, you know, we're not exactly sure, but he's saying, You, you know, local church leader, please help them.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: Along with Clement and the rest of the people who were there.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: You guys pitch in, don't just let them fight it out on their own.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: You guys need to support them.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_03: He's realistic.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just expect people to get on because you say, please get on.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes you need impartial mediation.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: Someone to stand in the middle and go, right, let's hear your side, let's hear your side.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, like, well, let's shake hands and move on.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: And he doesn't say be best friends.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't say go around to each other's house for dinner all the time, but he does say you've got to coexist and you've got to coordinate in that shared aim, which is the cause of the gospel.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting, it's very practical.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we've had a lot of theology in this letter, but there's also a lot of really like tangible take-home right now we could apply that to a situation in our small group or in our in our church leadership team.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's just it's interesting that he's concerned that this kind of thing has an impact on the church as a whole and also on the external view of the church as well.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: He mentions a few times in those verses surrounding, yeah, like in chapter 2, for example, uh, verses 14 and 15, and he mentions that this is going to shape how people externally view the church.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_03: He's very concerned with the perception of the church outside.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, do everything, yeah, you know, 14 and 15, do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked generation.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about that a few weeks ago.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: But this is just as much an application of that as what we talked about at the time.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting, you know, it echoes what Jesus said in John's Gospel, you know, by this you will know that you're my disciples, that you love one another.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_03: What does love look like?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we could debate that.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean agreeing on everything.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: We've established that even in this room, that we don't agree on everything.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_03: But it does mean disagreeing agreeably.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: It does mean putting one another first, it does mean forbearance and kindness and patience and all those things we've talked about.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've got um a couple of questions here that I think we're just going to skip past because we have sort of talked about appropriate disagreement.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well we'll skip past those.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_03: But what what does it then look like if we are disagreeing?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: What's next?
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_03: This sort of section, uh, chapter four, verses four to nine is it's it's pretty elite teaching.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you've probably heard a lot of these verses before.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_03: You've probably seen them on a memory verse card, you've probably remembered them, you've probably heard them preached on.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_03: It is incredibly rich.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm I'm just gonna read out again because it's only a couple of verses, but I think just nailing these in your memory would be incredibly impactful.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_03: And we're gonna spend a couple of minutes just digging into them.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_03: But what he says, you know, so you really in C2K, guys, you've got to get on.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_03: And why?
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: Rejoice in the Lord always.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_03: I will say it again: rejoice.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: Let your gentleness be evident to all.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_03: The Lord is near.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, present your request to God.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_03: Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me or seen in me, put it into practice, and the God of peace will be with you.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_03: That is there's some hefty stuff in there.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Each verse you could do a sermon on, I'm sure.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: But it's interesting how he kind of starts it, isn't he?
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, remember we've just come off like a little conflict resolution thing, and then he says, Let your gentleness be evident to all.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's an interesting like characteristic to foreground there.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, from those fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, it's in there.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_03: But he's saying gentleness, that's the one he's highlighting.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_03: How often if someone described you as gentle, it's not the first compliment I would think to throw around for people that I I value.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's a nice thing, but it's not a word that often in like a day to day context we'd expect to be applied to people.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: But imagine if we were all aiming at gentle in our interactions.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_03: We were aiming in our in our conflicts, in our inter-church discussions about theology, if gentleness was the thing that we were going for, then things would be quite different, wouldn't they?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_03: Conflicts in that context would be a little bit more, or maybe a little bit less fractious.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's just interesting to reference.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it it maybe links as well to throughout the letter, he appeals to people's humility.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_03: He appeals to people's view of themselves to be humble and in the light of what Christ has done for them.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, it's just interesting to consider, isn't it?
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_03: We have, you know, off the back of that, you know, don't you know be gentle, the Lord is near.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then we have this section here in verses six to seven do not be anxious about anything.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_03: But in everything by prayer and petition with thanksgiving present your request to God and the peace of God, which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting that how do we read that in the light of our modern day understanding of worry?
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it's a little bit like you know we were talking about before physical disability.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_03: Churches were not built with people who have physical disabilities in mind.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_03: If you're in a wheelchair someone's going to have to carry you to get in this, you know, how does this chime with our modern understanding of mental health?
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how do we how do we approach that stuff?
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean like for example I've suffered with anxiety I've paid for professional help for anxiety and you know counseling therapy is that bad is that I don't know what how do you read this in that light I don't know when we're anxious do we just need to pray and offer everything to God and then you know it'll be dealt with God's peace will guide our hearts and minds in Jesus what does that mean?
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know remember again the the context that this is being written into these are not people who have got like solid nine to five jobs, a good pension, a nice house, 2.4 kids and a dog.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_03: These are people who've they're in a press situation.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_03: They are in the face of an aggressive imperial cult of worship.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_03: They themselves are in a dangerous situation.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_03: Paul was imprisoned when he got there.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_03: Paul himself is now imprisoned but he's saying don't be anxious don't worry what's what's going on there you know what might their anxiety be rooted in and is that different than what our anxiety might be rooted in today.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_06: It's worth reflecting on yeah you got a question yeah go ahead source of anxiety attachment to just attach it's a really good thought it's actually one that I want everyone to discuss now in a couple of questions.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_03: So like is it is anxiety just we're too attached to stuff in this world?
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: Is is anxiety simple?
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_03: Paul Paul literally says do not be anxious about anything is anxiety sinful?
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_03: And if it's not then okay what does godly anxiety look like?
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_03: And if it is sinful how do we avoid it?
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_03: Have a chat discussed and we'll feed back in a minute and I'm sure we'll all agree.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm aware time's getting on I haven't left you very long but I think it'd be nice we can we can open some of these discussions out as a larger group.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Unless we all agree which is it is possible think is is anxiety a sin?
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_03: But it says do not be anxious.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_03: How do we square that?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_12: I think actually I mean the next thing it says but by repetition um bring a request before God I think anxiety actually just like any other emotion is an indicator or a pointer to something.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_12: So say I have got a deadline and I've been a Muppet and I haven't done anything for it and it's due within 12 hours but I've had the last three months to do it I'm probably going to be anxious about it.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_12: And actually maybe just hypothetically speaking from not experience and actually that's my body's way of saying hey look you've got to do something about it do something about it and I think actually the feeling of anxiety in that isn't necessarily isn't isn't a simple thing and isn't necessarily a bad thing it's what we do that anxiety.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_12: Do I wallow in it and do I think oh my goodness and start panicking and frantically get things or actually do I say hey Lord can you be with me in this and can I come come to the Lord and say I'm anxious about this can you show me a way that is away from this anxiety and I don't necessarily think I think that's anxiety in the day to day as opposed to maybe the medical condition and diagnosis of anxiety because I think that's a different thing and so like if someone's having a bit of a depressing day that's different to being medically depressed.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_12: I think if someone's feeling anxious that's different to having medically diagnosed anxiety and I think the feeling anxiety is anyone else want to come in anxiety by reading the Bible okay so by reading the so you know quoting to not be anxious about anything you know understanding the context that should help remove our anxiety what does anyone else think?
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Any thoughts?
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_03: Anyone disagree?
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_11: Anyone yeah I think a lot of this stuff is structural stuff that we put onto the story.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_11: So in in the way that theology is a is a structure we put on to the words that we read in the Bible in some ways whether you were clinically depressed or clinically anxious or you have a diagnosis of those lines in the sand that you know people have placed onto those emotions because they have a function of hand there's not a huge amount of difference in that we all have cycles that there are people that have cycles that are difficult to control or extreme.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_11: When it comes to this you described beautifully at the start when you first looked at your child when they were born about fear that gave you I think that fear and anxiety have a similar connotation here that you could be anxious we were talking about the fact that if your child's ill you're anxious about their adultness you trust God to to to do what he will do but at the same time you have anxiety in that moment.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_11: But Paul says not to I'm just saying I yeah but it we it's so that we don't just ignore the Bible like what does that mean then how do we square that with Paul also says you know like you know we we fear the Lord you know we that's you know fear and anxiety maybe two sides of the same coin but it literally says do not be anxious how do we manage that I don't I'm just asking the question I think when Paul say do not be anxious does that are you saying that Paul's words then are saying that if you're anxious it's simple I'm asking that I'm asking the question I'm not doing it I consider it pure joy dear brothers when you encounter trials and tribulation so if you don't encounter it if you don't consider it pure joy are you then being sinful because you're not encountered you can extrapolate you can but it's important to ask the question because it's you know I am sure we have all either been in a context or have experienced a context where someone has said I'm actually really struggling and someone said oh just don't be anxious pray about it which feels very can be helpful which it can be helpful but that is very trite but I think sometimes we we are in a danger of just like oh here's a verse pop that on there.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Does that feel better?
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_03: Magic one which actually you you're right in some context for sure you know someone is is having a bad time and they open the Bible and there is a verse there and do you know what it just completely changes their perspective and that is the power of the word that is the power that God has through that.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_03: But we also have to recognize that scripture can be misused and can be misapplied I mean you know the devil quotes scripture at Jesus when he's tempting him you know the that is you know that's clearly suggesting that the Bible can be misused or taken out of context.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it's an important discussion to have because we recognize the differences in perception of the world around us.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know Paul probably didn't have a a full medical encyclopedia of mental health diagnoses at his fingertips.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: But we can forget that when we read this and we can think ah do you know what you know like I said I've I've got personal experience with anxiety.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't struggle with this verse but other people might because they don't have a a frame for understanding how we do this.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not saying mine's the the only or the the sole correct interpretation but for me here I think we need some nuance when we read this because we have to approach the Bible understanding who it's for how it's written the context it's in.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_03: So some nuance here you know we like I said Paul doesn't have mental health at the forefront of his mind I think you know simply quoting verse four at someone is not going to you know saying rejoice in the Lord always to someone who's got clinical depression is on medication and is you know undergoing therapy for that that's not just going to change things for them.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_03: But we can pray for that person, pray for healing pray for deliverance and pray for medical intervention that works, of course.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_12: But sorry I have no just yeah go ahead jump in yeah please yeah jump in what you said I was just um I was having a uh conversation um with my girlfriend recently um about this sort of actually like anxiety and thanksgiving um because I mean the the the passage trees do not be anxious about anything but in every situation by prayer and petition with Thanksgiving present your request to God I think the Thanksgiving is actually really important because um having you know had a look at it and she brought up something really interesting actually um the the process of being thankful for for things actually starts to dull being worried about things.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_12: So I think if I'm uh uh I don't know really worried about um oh I can't think of an example say give you your child for example your your child is ill you're really worried about actually thank you for this gift I I know that this is something you've given to me and I and I trust and I that's where the trust comes in I think that's another thing but actually being thankful does dull the anxiety I think that's to me is it's not a distraction necessarily but maybe a reorganisation of the way you're looking at things.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_05: I think that's really dull yeah absolutely I completely agree and I think sorry yeah please by all means I think with this about anxiety there's a lot about ownership and the individual and I've got up on my phone um because I I preach on on some of these things and we're um examine vigilators and I show a poster that's on the back of a staff toilet and it says is your inner voice a friend or a bully how we talk to ourselves matters and on one side it's got nobody loves you you're a failure it's all your fault you're not trying hard enough and on the other side you are loved you are kind you're doing your best you can try again and then it's got the education support help line the staff to ring if they've got any anxiety because it says we can't control what others say or do but we can learn to speak kindly to ourselves and they're all about anxiety there's ownership we can change the playlist that we play in our minds you know we we might we play negative um soundtracks uh how we talk to ourselves matters and I think you know whatever is lovely whatever is right whatever is pure think about such things I think we need to be really careful about the playlists that we play and people could have said things to us back when we were young you you're not going to amount to anything you're making lots of mistakes da da da and we play those for a long time in our lives and I think it's important for us sometimes to to change our playlists absolutely and we can do that ourselves I think there's a lot of personal ownership here and the individual I can't change anybody else's thought patterns but I can change mine.
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah and we've all got that agency.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder if sometimes in in a context like this it's maybe important to to use a different word to you know here it says anxiety obviously you know that word or like depression or something they have now in the modern sense they have clinical meanings.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_03: Anxiety you know is a clinical medical condition.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_03: We can be anxious of course but to have anxiety is maybe something slightly different.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if you know we could replace anxiety here with the word worry and that would maybe you know ticks in this box you know worry and concern and and fear but then actually medically diagnose anxiety depression that's maybe something slightly different because I wonder if people who have you know literal anxiety there's there's a there's a brain chemistry difference and maybe actually they don't have the capacity always to change the playlist themselves by sheer force of will by praying and actually that's when external intervention a little bit like we talked about mediation in a conflict situation sometimes that external intervention can help whether you know that could be medical that could be you know chemical you you take medication to alter your brain chemistry so that you can you through you engage your will in a certain way.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_03: No one's saying to someone who's clinically depressed cheer up because that's not the point.
• 1:21:33
  SPEAKER_03: But actually someone who's you know they're having a bit of a down day and they're feeling a bit lazy and morose and actually engaging in some thankfulness activities, some mindfulness that that actually could help in that situation.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting here I I wonder if you know that's something that we bring to the text sometimes we we attach our modern sensibilities to an older text and we and we misinterpret it.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_03: But what Paul does say is that the peace of God will guard your hearts and your minds but that it transcends understanding.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes the circumstance doesn't change people are still undergoing a mental health crisis or have an exam that they've not studied for or are experiencing an identity crisis.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that doesn't change but the peace of God can still guard their hearts and their minds because it transcends understanding it's beyond anything that we can appreciate.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_03: And we we have to recognize that there's something about acknowledging God's sovereignty over whatever the earthly problem is that allows him to bring peace into our lives into our hearts and our minds whatever that looks like to us in a way that is beyond our circumstances you know it's interesting that you know Jesus says you know in well sorry actually the the the words the word anxiety the word worry I should say um there it originally means being being pulled apart being pulled in two different directions and I wonder if that maybe helps us to understand a little bit more it's competing desires.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you were saying it's being tied too firmly to one thing whilst another thing is is pulling you.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_03: We need to recognise where our our complete focus is our complete trust even if we don't necessarily have the capacity to to achieve that on our own.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus said don't worry about what we eat and drink.
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_03: We are gonna actively pursue those things because we don't want to starve but we also should allow God to to take care of us in that kind of broader holistic sense like he does the rest of the world and the cure for that worry being pulled apart that is prayer that is recognizing God's sovereignty over those things.
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Has anyone got any any questions or come back on that?
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm aware that we've breezed over quite a lot of significant stuff there in quite a short space of time.
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I think it's worth remembering as well that the like the Jewish Christian the early church tradition has a strong emphasis on corporate mental and we don't often have that in modern particular modern charismatic environment and uh the like Jewish reform of the memory differs from lots of other ancient and recent element structures in that the lament itself also offers things like expressions of praise expressions of confidence as well as genuine expression of the lament so if you think about Psalm 88 which is often seen as like the the darkest of the Psalms it like it ends with like darkness is my closest friend and so yeah darkness is my closest friend and final but the first is Lord you're the God who saves me day and night I cry out my prayer comes before you turn your ear to my cry like there's this I think it's worth us in the church being aware that we do there is a space in our tradition of engaging corporately with each other's fears, troubles, pain and that can be transformed through prayer to an expression of praise and confidence in God absolutely it's something that we touched on uh in a sermon at our church a few theories get about actually how important grief is still you know we don't we recognize we believe in the resurrection we believe in new creation we believe all things will be made new but actually grief is still an important and healthy part of processing the brokenness pain and sin of this world.
• 1:25:21
  SPEAKER_03: And if we breeze over that we just say don't worry we just say rejoice in everything we're ignoring that and that is a fundamental part of the human experience in this created reality right now.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_03: Not that that was how God intended it to be but that is our present reality and we need to engage with that duality and I do think that's that's really important.
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks Jack so we then have this next section if we move on quickly to um to that that verse 8 and 9 think about such things and it's a little bit like what we've been talking about about how our theology shapes our action about how what we think about shapes our our reality the internal shapes the external this is just it's practical advice again there's not like a deep theology here it just makes sense.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_03: Think about good stuff of course that that makes sense but it's so easy to to have a playlist going in our heads of the bad stuff that people have said to us the things that we regret our shame our guilt you know the things that make us anxious the things that we are concerned about the things that we can't control.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know it whatever you dwell on, Paul says here is where your life and action will inevitably lead.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're dwelling overly on finance or career progression or the relationships you have with the people around you whatever it is that is going to be what shapes your existence we can't shape we can't separate our thoughts from our actions at all.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know it's like I won't be formed by feelings of course of course you will but what what we're feeling about what we're thinking about we can shape that and that in turn shapes who we become and our actions it's increasingly difficult to do that I should say by the way in today's you know attention economy you're bombarded with stuff all the time ads and pieces of content and texts and notifications and things on TV and things on the internet and wherever it is that you are you're being bombarded constantly with messages that are not internal, they're external and we have to recognize that and our internal space has to become curated as much as possible.
• 1:27:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's that sanctification process again we're partnering with God in that ongoing process of being made more holy of moving towards that glorification process when we do enter the new creation the God of peace will be with you we we can't control those intrusive thoughts but we can control where we're investing the mental energy you we all I'm sure have the experience of a thought just popping into your head out of nowhere without context what is that It's unpleasant, or it makes you scared, or it makes you think, how on earth could I think that?
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's horrible.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Or whatever it is, it's a memory from years ago.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's just out of nowhere.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a that's a key weapon of the enemy.
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Let's name it.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we have an enemy who's an accuser.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_03: Accusation.
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's finger pointing.
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what a lot of those thoughts are.
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, you can choose to run with them.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, because we often, I think we can recognise sometimes that that wasn't from me.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that is interesting.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder what you know, you can you can follow that train of thought.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_03: But we also have a choice to not.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_03: We also have a choice to put into practice what we've learned and received and seen from the church around us, from Paul, from Jesus.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Martin Luther has this really fun quote where he said, You can't stop a bird landing on your head, but you can stop it making a nest in your hair.
• 1:28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Which is quite a visceral image, but actually it makes sense, doesn't it?
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_03: You can't stop something popping into your head, but you can absolutely choose whether you engage with it.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if an ad pops up on your browser, you can choose whether you just sit and look at it, or you can just choose whether you click off it.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's easy to do.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think the more that we practice this, the more that we engage with what is right, pure, lovely, and admirable, that is the stuff that feels natural to us, and that's where we should be going.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm aware that we've we've run on slightly.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm gonna skip past that that final example.
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to just ask this final question before Tim comes up just to give us a couple of bits of info about what might be happening next.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_03: What is it that has stood out to you from these last four weeks?
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_03: We've talked about a letter that covers quite a span of stuff.
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_03: There's intense theology, there's highbrow, you know, crystallical mechanics, and there's just think about good stuff, and that'll go well for you.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's really high and low brow stuff here.
• 1:30:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to just take, let's just take a minute to sit, you know, and just ponder some of those things we've maybe talked about this evening.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then we'll have a minute and we'll just share with the person next to us what we've reflected on.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder if, you know, if you're brave enough, we might share some of those things.
• 1:30:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't need to sort of discuss necessarily or get backwards and forwards, and I disagree, but like, what is it that struck you about this letter as we've read it?
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_03: Feel free to flip back through your Bible or your phone and refresh your memory about previous stuff.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm just gonna set a timer for just a minute, just so that we can reflect on that.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then if you if you would like, there will be a chance to share it.
• 1:32:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think we've also sort of touched on similar versus different contexts and like Yeah, I just think it's a really special thing and helpful thing that we have descriptions, that we have faith, that we have booked on and how and when we do the few trials, but how despite whatever else is going on in life, still rejoicing because it's good, whatever else is going on.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um being able to have the fact that we have one that we can train to.
• 1:33:05
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, I think if anybody here is going to be mental health stuff, then actually it's all really quite pragmatic useful stuff.
• 1:33:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's yeah.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_09: It's a real thing.
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_09: It's just really yeah, it's just really useful stuff.
• 1:33:29
  SPEAKER_03: The Bible cares about what we're going through and engages with it.
• 1:33:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's just like what on earth do people do without all this?
• 1:33:40
  SPEAKER_03: It is on a personal level, it is something I find encouraging that this book doesn't just assume everything is right all the time.
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 1:33:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I don't know Jack referenced the Psalms of SEM and like if you want to see the full gamut of human emotion, you read the Psalms.
• 1:34:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like depressive, frustrated, anxious, joyful, hopeful, fearful, upset, angry, like it's all there, and the fact that the Bible engages with that I find that really encouraging, and it validates those emotions when you do feel them as well.
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_03: That you you can be afraid in in the right way or angry in the right way sometimes.
• 1:34:28
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Someone else.
• 1:34:31
  SPEAKER_04: What came to mind when you were talking about the is it good or bad being anxious thing?
• 1:34:35
  SPEAKER_04: I was somehow weirdly reminded of a bit um when I was looking at where it was, I think it's in Mark, where somebody says, I believe, help my own belief.
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I was thinking actually there's other things where you can sort of intercept that, like, oh god, I'm so anxious, help me not to be anxious.
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like I think there's other I think he understands that we're in these places, but if we just turn to him anyway, he gets it, he sees he knows.
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, I thought I wonder if in the next few weeks or months Tim or Dave Mitchell get locked up and sent into prison.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_08: I wonder what I wonder what their letter might be.
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_08: I wonder what their reflections might be.
• 1:35:22
  SPEAKER_08: As people who are respected as leaders in their churches, what always someone the church looks up to who gets banged up, uh I wonder what wonder what they would write back to the church to say, yeah, not doing that particularly well, as a reflection on you know the wider congregation.
• 1:35:43
  SPEAKER_08: And then from a from a sub personally, I I one of the sections in verse in chapter two that I think is critical, it talks a bit about living harmoniously together, and I think it's really important.
• 1:35:59
  SPEAKER_08: We may, and we'll talk about it tonight.
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_08: We may have differences, but don't let the differences overcome the importance of living in harmonies.
• 1:36:07
  SPEAKER_08: Because if we can't live in harmony, how are we gonna reach out to the world?
• 1:36:12
  SPEAKER_08: But it says do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather um rather in humility value others above yourselves.
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_08: And I think we can all learn a lot from that one verse by looking at others more importantly and more significantly than than ourselves.
• 1:36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think we can end it there.
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 1:36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks everyone.
• 1:36:37
  SPEAKER_03: We've got I'm aware we've got a minute or two left.
• 1:36:39
  SPEAKER_03: Tim um has a few things that he wants to share with us, um, just about um a few more opportunities to engage with other stuff.
• 1:36:45
  SPEAKER_03: But um, Tim, if you want to come share.
• 1:36:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you everyone for for listening so attentively.
• 1:36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um