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Is It The Fault Of Evangelism? || SLP359 · The Speak Life Podcast

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, hello everyone and welcome back to the Speak Life Podcast, the podcast some listeners have described as one they might even listen to again.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: So with a review like that, you'd be crazy not to listen.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: If you haven't already, please do subscribe to our podcast on your podcatcher of preference.
0:21
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0:26
SPEAKER_01: So we'd love it if you could do that.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: We're calling this week's podcast, Is It the Fault of Evangelism?
0:32
SPEAKER_01: So let me hand you straight over to Glenn and myself to explain a bit more about what that actually means.
0:38
SPEAKER_04: Today we are thinking about this subject.
0:41
SPEAKER_04: Is it the fault of evangelism?
0:44
SPEAKER_04: Is what the fault of evangelism, Paul?
0:46
SPEAKER_01: Everything.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: No.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: All the things recently.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: So we've been talking recently, haven't we, in the in um in the livecast, or the number of the last few live casts, and a number of other videos as well about just some of the issues that have been coming up in the church recently around Ravi Zacharias and um Jonathan Fletcher, I guess a little bit before that, we had the Steve Timmys stuff.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Um and partly the question is could these things have been avoided if we didn't have such a huge emphasis on evangelism, which might seem like a strange thing to say.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: But I think hopefully once we unpack that a bit, you'll get a sense of why we would maybe go down that road.
1:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
1:26
SPEAKER_04: Well, it it came to me really through an email that somebody sent, which I'm gonna email, uh, I'm gonna read out a kind of a an extract from it.
1:35
SPEAKER_04: And I thought it was just a really helpful um response to some of the videos that we've been making.
1:41
SPEAKER_04: And um let's let's have a look.
1:43
SPEAKER_04: Um I called Paul um emailed and he said, Recently, I watched your interview with a victim of Jonathan Fletcher, that would have been uh with Leif Burney, and it is this that prompted me to write to you.
1:53
SPEAKER_04: I too am a victim of abuse in a church and someone who takes a deep interest in all spiritual paths, although I've been a committed Buddhist for many years.
2:01
SPEAKER_04: Recently, I watched about 20 videos by Christians on the latest crop of scandals, and I noticed the same themes reoccurring concerning the problems, including in your videos.
2:11
SPEAKER_04: These problems were lessons to be learned, helping victims heal, more transparency, setting up structures to prevent such things happening again, the need to do better, etc., etc.
2:20
SPEAKER_04: And yet the scandals have been going on for years, and these are just the ones that have come to light.
2:24
SPEAKER_04: Neither do they include the many that occur in Asia and Africa, which never hit the headlines in the West.
2:30
SPEAKER_04: Not included is the widespread non-criminal abuse, the petty tyrants, the egomaniacs, the money-grabbing preachers.
2:36
SPEAKER_04: My own religious community has some of these problems, but they pale into insignificance besides yours.
2:42
SPEAKER_04: Amongst all the suggested solutions being offered, I noted one thing was never mentioned, self-awareness, or in ordinary parlance, having a good, honest look at oneself.
2:53
SPEAKER_04: And I think there is one major reason for this.
2:56
SPEAKER_04: Christians are preoccupied, perhaps even obsessed, with bringing others to Jesus.
3:01
SPEAKER_04: The amount of time, money, ingenuity, effort, and sacrifices Christians expend to convert others is truly astonishing.
3:09
SPEAKER_04: You pray for it, have conferences on how to do it, celebrate it when it's successful, vow to keep trying when it isn't, donate money for it, even the many admirably um, even the many admirable projects that Christians have to help the sick and marginalized often have a conversion agenda behind them.
3:25
SPEAKER_04: Could Christians suffer fewer scandals if they paid less attention to converting others and more to transforming themselves?
3:34
SPEAKER_04: What do we think about that?
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I suppose perhaps what he's getting at is this sense that mission is so all important in the church or to it to a lot of Christians that you would almost turn a be prepared to turn a blind eye to uh wrongdoing and stuff that's going on.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, we've seen that, haven't we, in the the Rabbi Zacharias stuff and Jonathan Fletcher stuff?
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the suggestion of you know, so and so, oh, they're yeah, but they're they're doing the Lord's work, that they're a good person.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this might be, you know, maybe there is something there, but you know, hey, let's let's protect the ministry.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: And if this comes, you know, if you say something about this, maybe that would damage the ministry.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, we we famously saw that in Ravi, in the Ravi report, didn't we?
4:24
SPEAKER_01: That he said to someone, millions of souls would be lost if this came out, you know.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: But you know, we can't speak about these things because the be all and end all is this evangelistic mission, and the evangelistic mission would be in jeopardy if we were to speak about this and look too hard.
4:41
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
4:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
4:42
SPEAKER_04: And you get that sort of sense as well when um with the Jonathan Fletcher review that came out, um, there was this sense that um uh church is more of a um an army, or it's uh it's it's more of a soldier recruitment or boot camp for boot camp for soldiers rather than a hospital for sinners.
5:03
SPEAKER_04: Um and again, you know, there's there's that sense of of you know, what is it all about?
5:08
SPEAKER_04: And and there's that sense in all kinds of abuse scandals, the cover-up often happens when people say, uh-uh, but he's a good man doing a good work.
5:17
SPEAKER_04: And that's usually a man in those scenarios.
5:19
SPEAKER_04: He's a good man doing a good work.
5:21
SPEAKER_04: And I just I'll just never forget Diane Langberg saying on on a video from a couple of months ago, um, it's not a good work.
5:28
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:29
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't matter how bright and shiny it is, how large it is, how growing it is as a ministry, um, if it's throwing vulnerable people under the bus along the way, um, it's not a good work.
5:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, and so uncovering it should be what we're what we're interested in in doing.
5:47
SPEAKER_04: Um, our guy Paul uh continued in his email.
5:50
SPEAKER_04: He said, now Fletcher and Zacharias are being reputed, are being repudiated, but calling them evil or discussing whether or not they are in hell seems to me to skirt the more important question.
5:59
SPEAKER_04: How did they get that way?
6:01
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure they started out as devoted, sincere Christians, but I'm just as sure that the need to fulfill the Great Commission led them to start making compromises, then exaggerating, then becoming a good actor, then becoming blind to their personal issues, pride, lust for power, sexual desire, etc.
6:20
SPEAKER_04: They had no time to look at themselves, they were too busy planning how to save others.
6:27
SPEAKER_04: That's quite a line, isn't it?
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
6:30
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: Is there any truth to it?
6:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I think that it is there is possibly truth in that, and I think it's worth looking at, you know, uh I think we do have this huge emphasis on evangelism and mission generally.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So if you in considerable evangelical circles, if you think about the the go-to applications of a lot of sermons, it's gonna be generally about like pray, read your Bible and do evangelism.
7:04
SPEAKER_07: Right.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, if if you're taking away that that is the most important thing all the time is basically to save other people, you're gonna be less likely to just spend time looking at yourself.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: The bigger thing is just getting on with the job.
7:21
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: And if you get in the way of the job, that's a negative.
7:26
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
7:27
SPEAKER_04: And uh you've got that, you know, massive chapter in chapter 20 of Acts where Paul is commissioning the Ephesian elders, and he says, Look, there are going to be wolves that you know rise up in your midst.
7:39
SPEAKER_04: His big advice is keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of God, which God which you know which has been bought at the price of the blood of God, you know, the Acts, Act 20, right about verse 30-ish.
7:54
SPEAKER_04: But um, keep watch over yourselves and over the flock which God bought with his own blood, which is a really stark way of putting the cross.
8:01
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's the blood of God that is shed for the flock.
8:04
SPEAKER_04: But the first thing we need to do is watch over ourselves.
8:09
SPEAKER_04: I'm not I'm not sure we're very very good at that.
8:11
SPEAKER_04: And I'm not sure, especially in evangelical circles, where we've got um, you know, part of it is activism.
8:19
SPEAKER_04: You know, if you go to Bevington's the fourfold, you know, emphasis of what evangelicals are all about.
8:25
SPEAKER_04: You know, for for a hundred years, he's he's been saying, here's what evangelicals are about, where we're cruci-centric, we're cross-centered, we're biblicentric or bibliocentric, we're bible-centered, we're um conversion-centered, and we're activists, right?
8:41
SPEAKER_04: So it's Bible cross-conversion activism.
8:46
SPEAKER_04: Where is the where is the spiritual formation?
8:50
SPEAKER_04: Where is the where is the looking at your matters of the heart and character and the imitation of Christ and all these other things that be massive in church history and massive in other parts of the church?
9:02
SPEAKER_04: But we're we're busy, you know, converting folks and and being activists, you know.
9:08
SPEAKER_04: I think the shoe fits.
9:10
SPEAKER_01: Um I guess you you can do all those things quite quite well outwardly, yeah.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, without without any real self-reflection, it's possible to look like you're doing the right thing the whole time.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Isn't it without without kind of walking the walk really?
9:28
SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: That's the danger.
9:31
SPEAKER_04: And yet the the the the cost of that is that as we've seen with Ravi, when he said to that woman, you know, if you blow the whistle, millions of souls will be in you know in jeopardy, there's a there's an aspect to which that's true, because when the the life of the minister of Christ is shown to be you know totally hypocritical, that does have a massive impact.
9:53
SPEAKER_04: You know, and and so um to fail to shepherd yourself and to fail to look after the the health of the flock um is not a shortcut to evangelistic gain.
10:08
SPEAKER_06: No.
10:08
SPEAKER_04: Actually, what we've seen with with Rabbi Zacharias is um that life and lip must go together.
10:16
SPEAKER_04: And there are absolutely catastrophic consequences when when life and lip do not go together.
10:22
SPEAKER_04: So I think I think he's definitely he's definitely onto something, Paul, in this email to us all.
10:30
SPEAKER_04: Um and one of the things that's brought home to me is that okay, are we missionary?
10:37
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
10:38
SPEAKER_04: And you know, speaking life is a is a missionary ministry.
10:41
SPEAKER_04: You know, we're an evangelistic ministry.
10:42
SPEAKER_04: We we want to we want to see the good news of Jesus get out there on every platform to the ends of the earth.
10:49
SPEAKER_04: Please, God, may it be so.
10:52
SPEAKER_04: But it I've I've been reminded in the last few months that actually reaching the world is not a different thing from building the church.
11:03
SPEAKER_04: And when we think of it as a different thing, then we'll think, okay, I know, Ravi, you go out and reach the world, and we'll look after the health of the body over here.
11:13
SPEAKER_04: Or, you know, evangelists Glenn Scrivener, you go out and reach the nations.
11:16
SPEAKER_04: And we'll let we'll let pastors, you know, look after the health of the sheep.
11:20
SPEAKER_04: Let one person go out and and find a lot of sheep and let a totally different group of people look after them and protect them from wolves.
11:28
SPEAKER_04: And it just like it just doesn't work.
11:32
SPEAKER_04: And and actually, if we pastor the flock and protect them and make the church a healthy place, well, you know what?
11:43
SPEAKER_04: Building the church will mean we reach the world.
11:47
SPEAKER_04: Because if the church is a living organism, and and absolutely, you know, throughout the scriptures, we see that the church is this living organism, it's a vine, it's a body.
11:57
SPEAKER_04: Well, healthy bodies grow.
11:59
SPEAKER_04: Healthy vines grow.
12:01
SPEAKER_04: And that is the way to reach the nations, but you don't ignore health of the body in order to reach the world.
12:10
SPEAKER_04: No.
12:10
SPEAKER_04: But I think sometimes we do.
12:11
SPEAKER_04: Is that or is that a harsh assessment?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's fair.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I was thinking, you know, this time, not this time, last year, kind of before that, kind of February last year, we did you know, uh one on uh live past 10 reasons the church is just the words, or something like that.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, we talked about kind of our own experiences of you know people you know in church and stuff, and I kind of spoke a bit about my experience of kind of an abusive leader, although not necessarily realizing at the time it's abusive.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, when it came to a head and kind of went the whistle, so to speak, and it all kind of blew up.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: I I mean I I remember being in this kind of meeting with the PCC and kind of just the end, you know, surveying the scene at the end where this thing had just exploded, and this half people in the room knew what had been going on but hadn't really wanted to say anything, and then the rest of the people have been completely blindsided by it.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: And there was a sense as I looked around, I thought to myself, like, my goodness, I've destroyed this church.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Right, you know, like what uh this feeling of like maybe I shouldn't have said anything, um, because what will this do to the church?
13:23
SPEAKER_01: But I and but actually now I reflect on it, I think, well, actually, no, it was you know, it's easy to look at that and think, hey, the ministry of that church, the mission of that church must have been very much knocked by that, but it it wasn't a healthy church.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: Just if I just stepped away and been like, I'm just gonna walk away from this, yeah, say nothing, yes, um, it wouldn't have been the case.
13:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, that wouldn't have been the right thing to do.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Um so I I think it's it's really easy to see, or as I think about it, I I find it easy to see that we could look at this idea of the church has a mission, and if we step in the way, yes, that's that's not really helpful.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: But I think rightly if we don't step, if we if we get in the way of things like that, if we don't blow the whistle, that in itself is detrimental to the mission.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, even though it feels like a step backwards or even quite a few steps backwards at the time.
14:17
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Really, it can't it can't be growing.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we said, you know, people might look at something and say, hey, this is growing, this is look at the fruit or the the growth from this.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: But you know, there are lots of unhealthy things that grow as well, you know, like in your body, something might be growing in your body which is not good, you know, and just as it's growing doesn't mean it's a good thing.
14:36
SPEAKER_07: Yes.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Um but I think there is uh you know, I there I was coming out of that theme, like, well, maybe I shouldn't have said anything, and I didn't really consider myself a victim.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: But if you know you're a victim of something, you know, it must be really hard to stand up and do something you know is going to derail at least on the surface, derail mission.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, ultimately, I think what we're saying is we ought to derail, we ought to derail this evangelistic mission if it's not a healthy mission, really.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: If it's not a good man doing a good work, Diana Rambo would characterize it.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: I I keep thinking 1 Corinthians 3, and there the Apostle Paul says, you know, there's one foundation to be laid, and that's Jesus Christ.
15:19
SPEAKER_04: And some people build on that foundation, church leaders build on that foundation, but some build with wood, hay, and straw, and some build with you know, gold, silver, and precious stones.
15:30
SPEAKER_04: And you can come up with a really impressive edifice with just wood, hay, and stubble.
15:36
SPEAKER_04: And you can spray paint it with gold and silver paint if you like, and it can be glitzy and it can be glamorous and it can be impressive, and the scale of it can take people's breath away.
15:46
SPEAKER_04: And yet on the last day, it will just be consumed by fire, it'll be worthless.
15:51
SPEAKER_04: You know, nothing, nothing will endure into eternity from that kind of building.
15:58
SPEAKER_04: And actually, it's a mercy from God if in advance of the last day, wood-hand stubble is called out for being woodhand stubble, and we actually demolish it and start again.
16:12
SPEAKER_04: And and it's it's actually a good thing, it's progress, it's actually progress to demolish wood hand stubble.
16:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's a mercy from God who's just saying, hey guys, just like that's that it it looks impressive, the scale of that thing looked impressive, but there was there was nothing enduring about it.
16:34
SPEAKER_04: And and therefore, to have the chance before the last day to have those things revealed and to refocus ourselves on the cornerstone Jesus and build with wood with precious stones and silver and gold, I think that's that is that is a mercy from God, really.
16:52
SPEAKER_04: Um Beverly Panda on um Beverly Panda, sorry, on um TopChat has just said, what is a healthy church?
17:01
SPEAKER_04: Care to expand on that.
17:02
SPEAKER_04: What do your thoughts just run on what is a healthy church, Paul?
17:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I suppose just recently I was I was speaking on 1 Corinthians 12 on the body.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Um I think you know, at least at least the starting point, that you know, that the 1 Corinthians 12 talks about us being a body, and you know, each part needs each other part, and you know, one part can't say to the other, I don't need you because of this, or I'm not part of you because of this.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Um I think there's you know that recognition that everybody is everybody has their part to play and is valuable in some way.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: The body, I think that's something that's probably we we we've talked about that, I think, off the back of the flesh of stuff in particular, the sense that there were those, I don't think that was the case so much.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: There were those who are in and those who there were those who are sound and those who aren't, those who are valuable, i.e.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: the preachers, and there were those who aren't quite so valuable.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: Um even though people wouldn't necessarily say that.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think Pete Nicholas pulled out as well just with the camp system, the kind of you know, you've got the the the real leaders and then you've got the ones who do the cleaning up.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Um and I I think it you know that that is obviously I think an unhealthy model which is in some ways trickled in.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Um I think you know, at least as a starting point, I'd want to see I'd want to see those things.
18:26
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
18:27
SPEAKER_04: And and I would say like if the body is as healthy as the head, you know, that there just needs to be Christ-likeness, you know.
18:35
SPEAKER_04: Um, so that's that's really good about um if you know if you're if you've got like you know a tumor on your spine and you're like, but but actually 80% of my body is fine.
18:49
SPEAKER_04: You know, no, dude, this is serious.
18:53
SPEAKER_04: The whole body is unhealthy if the if the spine is suffering.
18:56
SPEAKER_04: And so, yeah, so that's that's really helpful.
18:58
SPEAKER_04: That that's um the a healthy body cares about every member of that body.
19:07
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, yeah, a healthy body looks out for every member and cares about the health of every member.
19:12
SPEAKER_04: That's a really good sign of health.
19:14
SPEAKER_04: And the body's model of what health is is to look like the head and to be as healthy as the head is.
19:22
SPEAKER_04: And and at that stage, it's about character.
19:24
SPEAKER_04: And you know, to switch analogy from body to vine, which is another analogy for for what churches are, it you're producing the fruit of the spirit of Jesus.
19:35
SPEAKER_04: And and there's a quest like this in your love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
19:41
SPEAKER_04: I think those those start to be some of the diagnostics you make.
19:45
SPEAKER_04: Not so much busyness, for instance.
19:48
SPEAKER_04: You know, I I think we we just had um Bible by the beach, which is a great Bible conference.
19:54
SPEAKER_04: It's usually held um here in Eastbourne uh every year.
19:57
SPEAKER_04: We held it online over the weekend, and it was all about healthy churches and how do you build healthy churches.
20:02
SPEAKER_04: And I was asked on the weekends, like, what do you think are some of the substitutes we have for health in our churches?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Doing lots.
20:10
SPEAKER_04: Doing lots.
20:11
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was a kind of running, it it became a bit of a running gag because we knew it would never happen.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: But we used to do a thing in uh on the staff at church every year where you had to bring like three things you know you wanted to do, sorry, three things in your ministry or three three things, something in your ministry, something for the whole church or something like that.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: I can't remember exactly what they were.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: But one of them was or someone would always say, Let's do half as much twice as well.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: And it was always this kind of idea that like let's just stop doing loads and loads of stuff and really focus on doing some good stuff.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: And we knew it would never happen.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: We knew that we knew it would always just do more things.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: But why?
20:49
SPEAKER_01: Why would it happen?
20:50
SPEAKER_01: The idea of killing something, you know, saying we're gonna stop doing this service, this event, yes, whatnot, was a bit that was a step backwards, you know.
20:59
SPEAKER_04: Is that one of the blessings of the pandemic though?
21:01
SPEAKER_04: I wonder if a lot of pastors are just like, oh, I've finally been able to shed the the schedule of this.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's one of the blessings, not just in the church, but just in most of our everyday lives.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, I suppose it depends on your context, but if you particularly if you're someone who's got like a family and you've got kids who are like school age and they're doing different groups, I mean, the nice thing has been having those things not being on.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: And just having time and not rushing around like a headless chicken.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: But I think we do mark, you know, busyness as a you know, but the Professor Work ethics.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Let's not have any real like that Yeah, I mean I think there was a sense of just, yeah, you should be doing more.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Like you should spend every waking hour like basically just doing ministry, whatever that really means.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: Um and you shouldn't really have time off and enjoy yourself.
21:55
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
21:56
SPEAKER_07: Um Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:58
SPEAKER_04: I mean I'm I'm I'm often going About the one of the first impacts of the gospel and the Protestant Reformation on churches in Holland in the Netherlands is that you knew what a reformed church was because they shut their doors on Sunday nights.
22:14
SPEAKER_04: You know, having had the Lord's Day and filled people with, you know, fed them with Christ in word and sacraments, you say, go in peace to love and serve the Lord, and you lock the doors on Sunday nights.
22:25
SPEAKER_04: And you say, Don't come back until next Sunday.
22:28
SPEAKER_04: Because what would happen in the other kind of the in the medieval church, what you would do is Monday morning, you have to go to church, you go to light a candle, light a candle, and do your bit.
22:36
SPEAKER_04: You gotta do your bit on Monday and on Tuesday and on Wednesday, you know.
22:40
SPEAKER_04: And where does the Protestant work ethic come from?
22:42
SPEAKER_04: Well, the Protestant work ethic is basically a whole bunch of Protestants being filled with the commissioning of the Lord and recognizing that I can be a Christian cobbler and I can be a Christian farmer, and I can be a Christian milkmaid, and I can be, you know, and and the way that I'm a Christian cobbler is not by putting a cross on every pair of shoes, but being sent out on the Sunday to take Christ with me and to do a good job.
23:12
SPEAKER_04: And and I'm not constantly orbiting around the church as though this is where my spiritual life, you know, consists.
23:19
SPEAKER_04: You know, it doesn't consist in the amount of busyness, you know, the amount of religious stuff that I do.
23:25
SPEAKER_04: It's about being commissioned and sent and out into the out into the world, you flow from Mount Zion to the ends of the earth, you know, carrying with you the gospel of Jesus.
23:35
SPEAKER_04: And you can do that in whatever walk of life you're in.
23:38
SPEAKER_04: But I think these days, with very busy evangelical churches, is we've opened up, we've opened up the churches again.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: We've opened up the door.
23:47
SPEAKER_01: We expect people to be evangelistic.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
23:50
SPEAKER_01: And so we say, hey, you know, we should be inviting people to the you know, this event or that event, this service.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: You should be having a conversation with people, try and do Bible study or whatever.
24:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there'd be loads of people who'd say, Well, I just I don't really know any non-Christians because you know, basically I I go to work and you know, maybe I see some people there, but then I get home, and then basically you keep telling me that as soon as I get home, I've got to scoot my dinner down and get to a prayer meeting, and then the next day I've got to go to the PCC meeting, and the day after that I've got music practice for the church, and then and then don't forget the evangelism task force group that you've got to go through on Friday night.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I did say to my wife back at some point during the panic pandemic last year, I said, Oh, I've realized what it is that I really like about this.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: It's like when you get to the evening, there's nothing on, and most of the things in the evening were church.
24:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Just less meetings I had to be at.
24:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, a great answer on uh Top Chat.
24:44
SPEAKER_04: Uh, what is a child, what is a healthy church?
24:46
SPEAKER_04: Adam Smith says you can learn a lot about what a healthy church is and isn't by looking at the seven churches in Revelation.
24:53
SPEAKER_04: And that very first church in Revelation, Ephesus, is is very interesting for where our churches are.
25:01
SPEAKER_04: Because you know, Ephesus was doctrinally sound and it stood against the false prophets, right?
25:07
SPEAKER_04: You know, and it knew what it didn't believe, but it had lost its first love.
25:11
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
25:12
SPEAKER_04: And what did Christ say?
25:13
SPEAKER_04: You know, repent and do the things you did at first, regain your first love.
25:17
SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, return return to Jesus, and again, that's part of the body looking again to the head, rather than looking into the world and getting busy, you know?
25:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we believe the right things.
25:30
SPEAKER_04: Right.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: That's the danger, isn't it?
25:32
SPEAKER_04: Hey, I believe the right things up here.
25:34
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
25:35
SPEAKER_04: Um and we we hate what the Lord hates, which is about you know the the Nicolaitans, the horrible teaching of the Nicolaitans in in Revelation 2, um, the church in Ephesus, also, you know, renounced false teaching the way that you know they ought to have.
25:49
SPEAKER_04: But I have this against you.
25:52
SPEAKER_04: You know, you've lost your first love, and that's a catastrophic, you know.
25:55
SPEAKER_04: There's just one, there's just one issue, if I may.
25:59
SPEAKER_04: Ephesians.
26:01
SPEAKER_04: Just you don't actually love me.
26:04
SPEAKER_04: Um Peter Byrum asks, what do you make of the saying that people should not be so heavenly minded that they're of no earthly use?
26:12
SPEAKER_04: Have you heard that saying before?
26:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
26:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've I've heard it.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's yeah, I've heard it's dead.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: Um what do I think about it?
26:25
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you what I think.
26:26
SPEAKER_04: And then like I I think we often think of heaven and earth as competitors, you know, as though to the degree that you are heavenly minded, you will be of no earthly use.
26:37
SPEAKER_04: As though what God's really interested in is beaming you up out of the nasty world so that you can, you know, wear a nighty and flirt around and play a harp.
26:45
SPEAKER_04: And that's and that's um, whereas you know, what Christians pray every single day, every every single day, Christians are preaching um your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
26:59
SPEAKER_04: And so there's this this great, you know, this great Greek word, the Uranification of Earth, is what Christians are about.
27:06
SPEAKER_04: So Uranus is the word for heaven, and that's actually where the word Uranus comes from.
27:10
SPEAKER_04: So the the planet Paul, sorry, Paul Uranus, I should I say, is named after heaven, right?
27:21
SPEAKER_04: So maybe maybe that's where heaven is, I don't know.
27:23
SPEAKER_04: But um, but there's the the uranification of Earth is to to heavenise Earth, and that that's kind of the goal.
27:32
SPEAKER_04: And I think Paul.
27:39
SPEAKER_04: And I I think like one of one of the big issues that I think is we imagine that mission is all about here's God up here and here's the earth down there, and mission is about you know grabbing, snatching, you know, snatching the lost from the sinking Titanic and the Titanic going down.
27:58
SPEAKER_04: What you really need is to snatch the lost and beam them up to heaven.
28:02
SPEAKER_04: And therefore, to be heavenly minded in that sense is actually to be quite anti-Earth.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can mean different things by it.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the thing, isn't it?
28:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, when I've heard people say it, obviously it's obviously just it's obviously used as a pejorative about someone, you know, who's probably a little bit yeah, overly pious and stuff.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: Um you just think that they're they're they're so almost out of touch with anything going on in the real world day by day that they've just got no function.
28:32
SPEAKER_04: Right.
28:32
SPEAKER_04: But and it comes, it comes like like the phrase holier than thou comes from Isaiah 65, and it's God saying it of these horrible people who are so heavily minded they're of no earth for use, and they say, get away from me, for I am holier than thou.
28:47
SPEAKER_04: And the verse ends, this is Isaiah 65, verse 5, but the verse ends by God saying, Such people are a stench in my nostrils.
28:55
SPEAKER_04: Like God hates the holier than thou.
28:57
SPEAKER_04: Three verses earlier, in in verse 2 of Isaiah 65, the Lord says, All day long I hold out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.
29:05
SPEAKER_04: So, what is God like?
29:07
SPEAKER_04: God is not holier than thou.
29:10
SPEAKER_04: God's holiness is about arms wide open to the world.
29:15
SPEAKER_04: And so instead of this kind of model where you've got earth down here and the Titanic sinking, and we just need to snatch people up to heaven, what you've actually got is the Father sending the Son by the Spirit, the Spirits being filling the church so that in Christ we head out, you know, we go down and out into this lost world.
29:37
SPEAKER_04: And yes, the world is lost, and yes, the world needs Christ desperately, it's lost, absolutely.
29:42
SPEAKER_04: But it's the uranification of earth, and to be heavenly minded is to receive from Christ by the Spirit to be filled by Him and then flow down and out to the nations.
29:53
SPEAKER_04: And so to be heavily minded in that sense ought to mean like the most amount of earthly good.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: That's a positive, isn't it?
30:00
unknown: Yeah.
30:00
SPEAKER_04: I think so.
30:01
SPEAKER_04: I think so.
30:02
SPEAKER_04: And so what we've what we've got, I think, is uh uh the wrong paradigm for mission.
30:10
SPEAKER_04: And Paul's email was so helpful because I I think he's diagnosing a sickness in the church in which we we kind of we've got this model of the Titanic sinking, and then what we do is we very bravely and boldly you know hold our nose and go out into the the horrible world in order to save the sinners and snatch them up to heaven um while the earth kind of sinks.
30:34
SPEAKER_04: And if that, you know, and if you are on the Titanic and that's and that's the thing, like you're not gonna worry so much about the state of your soul or the state of your heart.
30:45
SPEAKER_04: Like that would be really that would be that would be a totally inappropriate use of your time.
30:52
SPEAKER_04: Dude, the Titanic sinking, get on the boat.
30:54
SPEAKER_03: You're like, but I'm just worried whether I really mean this rescue.
30:58
SPEAKER_03: I don't know I'm in the right place right now.
31:02
SPEAKER_03: Don't want to be a hypocrite about it, you know.
31:07
SPEAKER_04: When I act like an idiot, I put on an English accent.
31:10
SPEAKER_04: Have you noticed that?
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's still the Australian one.
31:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're right.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
31:19
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31:27
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31:29
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31:47
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31:49
SPEAKER_04: Lots of great comments.
31:51
SPEAKER_04: KL saying, Christians have lost our saltiness.
31:56
SPEAKER_04: We must repent.
31:58
SPEAKER_04: We saw that last week with um John Stott.
32:01
SPEAKER_04: And and it's kind of the quote that I always think of when I think of John Stott.
32:05
SPEAKER_04: He said, Um, when the meat goes off, don't blame the meat.
32:10
SPEAKER_04: Blame the salt.
32:12
SPEAKER_04: When it's be rubbed into the world and distinctive and different.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: That was really interesting, yeah, reading because John Wyatt, who was on, had shared what he was going to say that later that evening at the event without thinking he mentioned that in there, didn't he, about the salt.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I thought that was fascinating.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: The stock.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: I I think it's easy for us as Christians to be like, oh, society's going to the dogs in that, you know, it's hell in a hand basket.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: And John Stott apparently, you know, seemingly would have turned around and just been like, Yeah, well, whose fault is that?
32:41
SPEAKER_01: It's the church's fault.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Because we haven't been being out there being salty enough.
32:46
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, which I thought was really insightful.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: But in some ways, I mean, I suppose I I know I've said a number of times in in sermons, like I it's a genuine worry I have that like we just look like everyone else.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, Western Christianity, we just look like Westerners.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: It we we have all the the same ambitions and idols as the non-Christian, but we just have this thin Christian veneer on the top.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: We do Jesus on a Sunday kind of stuff.
33:15
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
33:16
SPEAKER_06: Um, yeah.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a real danger.
33:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
33:19
SPEAKER_04: And so what does mission look like?
33:21
SPEAKER_04: It looks like Christians that are pretty much identical to their non-Christian neighbors, but we've got to, you know, knock on the door and introduce them to Jesus, which in a New Testament sense is like the salt of the earth.
33:34
SPEAKER_04: You're the light of the world.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they were so so radically different, weren't they, in the way they stood out, in the way they lived their lives, and that's come up in a couple of comments, hasn't it, about from the you know, come acts 242 type stuff.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: Um can't see where that one is now about people sharing possessions and things.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: So we go Amanda Halden from Acts 242 and 247, they devote themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, and the Lord added their number day by day, those who are being saved.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: And she does, you know, she's not deliberately missed out those next week, but the stuff about sharing possessions that came up in the later comment.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, they were to look at, they were obviously different, and the way they lived was obviously different.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: And I I don't know how obviously different we are.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah um yeah, and we should be obviously obviousing, should be.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think perhaps that is you know, go back to the evangelism thing.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: We think of evangelism being here's this person out there doing evangelism, you know, doing a Christian talk at the University Mission Week or the the church mission week or having a conversation around the first copier or all the water ruler.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: But what about is actually evangelism part of it at least, just actually being Christ-like?
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And if we were doing that properly, would would that would we be seeing more fruit anyway?
34:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: You know?
34:51
SPEAKER_04: So before Acts 2, you get Acts 1, and you know, Jesus ascends, and as he's ascending, he you know, he says, You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the utmost ends of the earth.
35:03
SPEAKER_04: And he doesn't he doesn't say you will get busy doing evangelism.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: And he he doesn't even say try hard to be witnesses, he says, you will be my witnesses.
35:15
SPEAKER_04: That's an identity that you have.
35:17
SPEAKER_04: And of course, um, you know, the Greek word for witness is martyr.
35:23
SPEAKER_04: Martyr, yeah, yeah, exactly.
35:24
SPEAKER_04: Oh, boom! He gave the verb form of it as well.
35:28
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
35:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, shout out to John Percival, our Greek teacher.
35:33
SPEAKER_04: But he um, yeah, so martyr, we we are to martyr ourselves, which is like in the New Testament sense, we are to pour our lives out in service of others, too, you know.
35:44
SPEAKER_04: Um that is our that is our witness, and we are such people, and we're different.
35:49
SPEAKER_04: We're you know, so like being a martyr is different, you know, being salt is different, being light is different.
35:55
SPEAKER_04: We were thinking about one peter um earlier today, and and again, you know, 1 Peter 3.15, we always go to is this is what evangelism is about.
36:04
SPEAKER_04: You know, always be prepared to give an answer, give an apologetic to anyone asking you for the reasons and hope that you have.
36:11
SPEAKER_04: But even within 1 Peter 3.15, like you've got to have been living such a different life for somebody to be asking.
36:18
SPEAKER_04: You need you need to invite the questions.
36:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we're gonna invite questions.
36:22
SPEAKER_04: We're on a hair trick with the answers, we've got all the answers.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: The questions we tend to invite are really you're a Christian.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: You?
36:32
SPEAKER_04: I guess it is about forgiveness, but yeah.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really is great, yeah.
36:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and so, and when within 1 Peter, you know, that verse, like if you're gonna try and find a verse on personal evangelism, it's really tricky in the New Testament.
36:48
SPEAKER_04: It's like always be prepared to give an answer, is is your best shot.
36:52
SPEAKER_04: But even that, even 1 Peter 3, verse 15 begins, but in your hearts set apart Christ the Lord as holy.
37:01
SPEAKER_04: Which is exactly what Paul would be, you know, like Paul's not Christian, but he he he would be encouraging us to look at ourselves, look at our hearts first.
37:08
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and even on the verse about personal evangelism, it's like, look at your heart first.
37:15
SPEAKER_04: Set apart Christ the Lord as holy in your heart.
37:18
SPEAKER_04: And then be ready when somebody else looks at how differently you're living and says, How do you do it?
37:23
SPEAKER_04: How are you still how are you still standing after the year you just had?
37:27
SPEAKER_04: And then the other thing I was noticing about 1 Peter 3 is that the whole chapter begins in verse 1 with wives, you can win your husbands without a word through the way that you live.
37:38
SPEAKER_04: You're like, Paul, I thought I thought you were on Peter rather, Peter, I thought you were on our side.
37:43
SPEAKER_04: You know, I th I thought, Peter, you're meant to be telling us you know tips and techniques for for evangelism.
37:49
SPEAKER_04: And even the the biggest verse in the New Testament on personal evangelism, that chapter begins by saying, you can do it wordlessly, by the way.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: And I I wonder whether the emphasis on like there's always been a huge emphasis in the in the circles that I've moved in, um, of you have to say something, you know, because it's not enough just to be, you know, live well, um, because you know, the the non-Christian does that.
38:20
SPEAKER_01: And so I think there's a and it's the action against that kind of Francis of Azizi, although that's not really Francis of Azizi quote, isn't it?
38:27
SPEAKER_01: I think uh we've got it here somewhere, wasn't it?
38:29
SPEAKER_01: So preach the gospel at all times, if necessary, use words.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: And people say you it's always necessary to use words, you know, because um some people say, Oh, I just no, I don't say anything, I just live my life.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Um but I I wonder whether we swung too far, you know.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: It is yeah, it's it's almost the idea of doing good things is like, well, we don't no, we don't want to do that.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Because evangelism isn't isn't just doing good things, you know, you have to say something, so don't do the good things, just say something.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Just feel a bit like that sometimes.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: Like you've got to say something.
39:06
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Um I think, yeah, I mean, I I I so I think we there is a there's a reaction against something there.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: It's perhaps gone so far in the other direction that we forgot to tell people that actually you can be a witness in the way you live.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that may even open the door to having a conversation.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: It might do.
39:27
SPEAKER_04: It might do.
39:29
SPEAKER_04: It's so great in that um Acts 2 description of the church, the Lord added to their number, those being saved.
39:36
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's it's kind of like, yeah, deal with a healthy church, and the Lord will add to the number, you know, the healthy and how a healthy organism grows, you know.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Which is which is why we we talked a bit earlier about kind of when people when you preached, sometimes people might say afterwards, oh you know, you know, thank you for that.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if there was anything in there for the the non-Christian.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah, you know.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Um like preaching like is there's a specific bit which is for the non-Christian, and then there's a bit for the Christian.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: Um whereas actually, if you're preaching to the flock and building each other up and saying, let's be Christ-like, let's do this, then that itself should be the witness.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: I think often what people mean when they say there wasn't anything in there for non-Christians is um I didn't hear you kind of give this gospel outline where you called people to the altar call and told them to make a decision to follow Jesus.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's probably true because you know, not every passage has that, you know, it'd be a shame to crowbar that in, you know, given that we think we're with the good Bible teachers.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: We want to crowbar stuff in there, isn't there?
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, so 1 Corinthians 12 is a good example.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you know, if I if you're preached to a room of Christians and there are non-Christians in the room, you know, I'm not gonna force an altar call into that.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna preach what I think is 1 Corinthians 12 view of the church and the body, and hopefully those on the outside look in and go like, wow, like Wow, there's a community.
41:12
SPEAKER_01: If I look around at these people, not only are they saying it from the front, this is what it should be like, they seem to be doing this, you know.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Now there's no altar call in there.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: I haven't done an evangelistic talk.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: I haven't said maybe you're a non-Christian here today, and etc.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: etc.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: But then but that should be you know, that should be that is evangelism.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: If you're saying, look, here's the body, here's the church, this is what it looks like, here's Jesus, this is what he looks like.
41:38
SPEAKER_04: Right, right, right, right, right.
41:40
SPEAKER_04: It's it you know, it's my motto, I'm always saying, is is pastoral care is just evangelizing Christians, you know.
41:46
SPEAKER_04: So like you were preaching the gospel to Christians when you were preaching 1 Corinthians 12.
41:52
SPEAKER_04: You know, you're you're you're evangelizing Christians.
41:55
SPEAKER_04: And one way of describing evangelism Christians is just pastoral care.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: But one way of describing evangelism is just pastoring non-Christians, and you're just you're bringing Jesus to both.
42:04
SPEAKER_04: But the the idea that you've got to like bring everything to the point of decision, it's what pe it's what puts people off evangelistic sermons, or you know, because back in the day they there used to be the you know the the big divide is in the morning you have teaching for Christians, and you just you know tweak their discipleship.
42:22
SPEAKER_04: And in the evening you have the evangelistic message, and and of course, what what you do in the morning is you don't preach the gospel, you just hammer discipleship on, you know.
42:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and in the evening, you you you're basically just dust telling people make a decision to follow Jesus, make a decision to follow Jesus.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: And no wonder people don't like the idea of an evangelism at that point, because it just And uh if you're the person who goes in the morning and you're being told this type of teaching is is the thing for you here, it's the discipleship, it tells you that the kind of things you're hearing there are you know something that won't edify people outside the church, but you're also being told that the evening thing is the for the non-Christian, you're kind of getting the impression that that's not really for you.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, so the the gospel message in the evening isn't really for you, um, and the discipleship starts with people outside the church, and it gives this kind of very strange dichotomy between the two.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: But I think it you know, I I I think it has gone unhelpfully the other way.
43:23
SPEAKER_01: So the the other result of like let's take that evening meeting where you say this is the for the non-believer.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, rather than rather than ending up saying, Well, there's nothing here for the the the Christian, what we've started to say is there is something here for the Christian, because every Christian needs to hear the gospel.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, that's true, but what we mean by that is the gospel is this very narrow message about you know, yeah, forgiveness of sins and making your decision to follow Jesus.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: And we need to keep being in mind of that.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Now, yes, true.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: But like you interestingly said, when you preach 1 Corinthians 12, you're preaching the gospel to Christians.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: Hang on, is that the gospel?
44:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, well, yeah, it is, but in our circles, ha.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Not so much.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Like the gospel's over here.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: And this is the this is about the that's about the church.
44:10
SPEAKER_04: It's about the church.
44:11
SPEAKER_04: And yet it begins with you know, by the spirit, you're able to say Jesus is Lord.
44:15
SPEAKER_04: Which, if you wanna, if you want to boil down the gospel, that's that's the best, that's the best summary of the gospel you can come up with.
44:21
SPEAKER_04: Like Jesus is Lord.
44:22
SPEAKER_04: You are proclaiming by our spirit that Jesus is Lord.
44:25
SPEAKER_04: Like there's a beautiful gospel that's in the realm of church relations means this.
44:31
SPEAKER_04: And it means being Christ-like in all your ways of handling one another.
44:36
SPEAKER_04: And one of the problems with like having a really truncated gospel that we give to people is that we then say, Okay, there's your little truncated gospel.
44:43
SPEAKER_04: Now take it out to the workplace and drop it into a conversation at the water cooler, you know, and around the photocopy.
44:50
SPEAKER_04: Try and insert this into the conversation.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: And if you don't insert that, that's not evangelism.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And what evangelism ends up being when it simply becomes that very small thing, you know, like you're a rebel and you need forgiveness.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: It becomes the past the ink.
45:09
SPEAKER_04: Do you have a more toner?
45:10
SPEAKER_04: Oh, and by the way.
45:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever stolen any toner?
45:15
SPEAKER_01: And you're a sinner.
45:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, bird you weigh in.
45:24
SPEAKER_04: It's like the toner levels are falling short.
45:26
SPEAKER_04: Speaking of falling short, Bill.
45:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
45:32
SPEAKER_04: And it becomes this really weird and divorced thing from the rest of life.
45:39
SPEAKER_04: Whereas, you know, I think if you do preach the what the gospel means for building a healthy community, I think it I think the non-Christian listening into how the body relates to one another is fascinating.
45:52
SPEAKER_04: You know, if you've ever been, if you've ever worked with a team, right?
45:57
SPEAKER_04: It's fascinating to figure out, you know, how things come together.
46:01
SPEAKER_04: But we've just boiled things down.
46:03
SPEAKER_04: And the reason why we boiled it down is so that we can be activists, so that we can get out and can and convert people quickly, you know, because the Titanic gone down.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
46:12
SPEAKER_04: You know.
46:13
SPEAKER_04: I've loved this comment by Chris Todd.
46:16
SPEAKER_04: Isn't a lack of emphasis on building the church just another type of abuse?
46:20
SPEAKER_04: The abuse of neglect.
46:22
SPEAKER_04: Ooh.
46:24
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
46:26
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, to to kind of forget the beloved of the Lord in order to get busy out there converting other people.
46:37
SPEAKER_04: That's kind of a uh a neglect.
46:39
SPEAKER_04: You know what?
46:40
SPEAKER_01: I was I mean, I was thinking about this.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, over lunch, just went for a little stroll.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: And you know, don't take this the the wrong way.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: We're just reflecting on all these scandals and stuff, and just thinking, you know what, there's there's so much to my mind, good coming out of it.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: And that it's making so many of us just go, what on earth have we been doing?
47:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, what what on earth?
47:04
SPEAKER_01: Why on earth?
47:05
SPEAKER_01: How do we ever fall into this mindset of doing things this way or that way?
47:08
SPEAKER_01: Right.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's really making some of us at least sit and re-evaluate and think, and I think that's just a really good thing, you know, to think, well, why on earth did we, you know, why on earth did we think of evangelism like this?
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Why on earth did we do things that way?
47:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, where does that come from?
47:22
SPEAKER_01: And of course, you know, this, you know, looking at the gospel like this is very now a thing.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: Why do we get stuck on that?
47:28
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we miss all this over here?
47:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm certainly not making light of not of all the things that have gone on at all.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Um but I think it it's been there is a good thing for us as a church as it is it makes us re-evaluate.
47:45
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, it's it's it's good to see some of these things being unpicked, and obviously it's taken terrible things to happen in order to get there.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: Um but there might be some redemption from it in there.
47:58
SPEAKER_04: And it's this idea that um, you know, you you might have had um a huge edifice that's built, you know, of wood, hay, and stubble.
48:09
SPEAKER_04: You know, you might you might have this massive, you know, bolter wood castle that's that's that's being built in in this sort of way, but but actually when it gets swept away, you left, you're just left with the cornerstone, Jesus.
48:24
SPEAKER_04: And and you know, and the pandemic as well, in terms of okay, busyness is not available to us in the same sorts of ways.
48:34
SPEAKER_04: Maybe people are more important than programs and all these all these sorts of things.
48:39
SPEAKER_04: And and and I've been really struck that lots of people have gotten in touch with me personally, and then other people have gotten in touch with me on behalf of others, and said that you know, my my talk on 2 Samuel 13 about Ravia Zacharias is Amnon, I think that's probably the most fruitful evangelistic message I've given in the last three years, let's say.
49:04
SPEAKER_04: Right?
49:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and that's yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it?
49:07
SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's probably there's probably a lot of truth in it that that is a more powerful and I don't want it to be considered an evangelist.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: It's not an evangelist thing because it was an evangelist thing.
49:17
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: Like would if someone said to you, Glenn, could you rock up to our church mission week and give an evangelistic talk?
49:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: If you got up and gave that, people be like, What the F is he doing?
49:28
SPEAKER_07: Right.
49:29
SPEAKER_01: But but it obviously it struck a chord with people.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Um I think, yeah, it's this I I think so much of what we've done is we've just narrowed things into these things that they're not.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: It's quite freeing in a way to be able to chuck off those kind of shackles a little bit.
49:48
SPEAKER_04: And what what it's done is it's it's meant that either wounded sheep or or or those who haven't been part of Christ's flock but feel vulnerable.
49:59
SPEAKER_04: When when they've seen that there is a safe place because wolves are not going to be tolerated, they've actually flocked to Jesus.
50:10
SPEAKER_04: They've actually they've actually wanted to come home to Jesus again in a new way, or some have come to him for the first time, um, through a message that's all about, you know, Amnon, how dare you?
50:23
SPEAKER_04: Rabbit, how dare you?
50:25
SPEAKER_04: Um, and which goes and an old testament passage.
50:29
SPEAKER_04: You that the very few people, even if they're quite cognizant of the Bible, you know, and you know, the Amnon story is not, you know, on the on the on the tip of their lips.
50:39
SPEAKER_04: It's not the you know, John 3 16.
50:41
SPEAKER_04: It's not like that you no, it uh but it's uh but it's real and it's naming evil, and and I mean the scriptures are just so um profound and rich and variegated and deep and engaging with the the suffering of this world, and you know, the the verse that says, you know, and then Amnon, after he raped her, he hated her, he hated her more than he had loved her.
51:11
SPEAKER_04: And and and that's that's just kind of really at home with with a bunch of people saying, I had no idea the scriptures were this profound.
51:18
SPEAKER_04: I thought it was just this tiny little thing about the bridge diagram or whatever it is.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: You'd said to me that you'd had people say, Oh, it never, you know, I was never really a Bible person.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, or I I I kind of knew the scriptures a bit and stuff, but that that sermon on um Amnon really just showed how it the scriptures speak into real life.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: And that I mean, and that's great.
51:39
SPEAKER_01: And there's a little bit part of me as well, going like, what on earth have we been doing?
51:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are we doing in our preaching?
51:45
SPEAKER_01: If people are sitting there going, this is nice, but what's this got to do with real life?
51:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember reading through um uh I think it was Isaiah, like and David Pawson's book on Isaiah, just bit by bit, you know, gradually.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: And every time I read a chapter of Isaiah, I was just like, oh my goodness, this is just like this is like life today.
52:04
SPEAKER_01: This is like life today, you know, it's like bang on the money all the time.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: This is exactly what it's like.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: And I suppose I take for granted that people look at the Bible and go, oh, let's think like that.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: But it seems like clearly people have been doing that.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: So what are what have we been doing?
52:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: If people haven't been realizing that.
52:22
SPEAKER_04: Well, I get that we haven't seen it as this incredibly human and humanizing text.
52:27
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like the Bible is just for it's either for the Sunday morning where you just fine-tune your discipleship, or it's the incredibly simplistic message for the non-Christian to make a decision to follow Jesus.
52:38
SPEAKER_04: But it's not, it's not about the rest of life.
52:41
SPEAKER_04: It's not about Monday to Saturday, it's not about, you know, and and so it's either about just fine-tuning your discipleship at a quite external level: read more, pray more, give more, evangelize more, right?
52:55
SPEAKER_04: Or if you're not in my last segment.
52:59
SPEAKER_04: Or if you're not a Christian, come on home so we can tell you every week to give more, pray more, read more, and evangelize more.
53:06
SPEAKER_04: You know?
53:07
SPEAKER_04: Like I I was I was up in uh where was it?
53:10
SPEAKER_04: Scott, St.
53:11
SPEAKER_04: Andrew.
53:12
SPEAKER_04: I was I was preaching at the university, and there was a really bright guy, one of the smartest like undergraduates I've ever met.
53:18
SPEAKER_04: And he um was really assessing whether he wanted to become a Christian because he was like, like, if I jump in, I'm gonna jump in with both feet for Jesus, because it looks to me like what he's saying is um eternity is long, hell is hot, life is short.
53:34
SPEAKER_04: Um, and if I do not give every waking moment of my life to the mission of Christ, then I can't really call myself a Christian, can I?
53:43
SPEAKER_04: And he was weighing up like, am I am I gonna become a Christian?
53:46
SPEAKER_04: And if I do become a Christian, I will spend every waking moment of my life on mission for Jesus, trying to save people.
53:52
SPEAKER_04: And I just I just said to him, Well, look, in the church, the in in the Bible, the church is this living organism that if it's healthy, it grows.
54:01
SPEAKER_04: And the mission is not so much reach the world, the mission is build the church.
54:07
SPEAKER_04: And to the degree that the church is healthy, you know, if you do Acts chapter two, the Lord adds to the number those being saved.
54:14
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, does it does it make a difference if I tell you your life's work now is not reaching the world, your life's work now is building the church and and nurturing the body of Christ.
54:26
SPEAKER_04: He said that makes a big difference.
54:28
SPEAKER_04: His shoulders were kind of dropping, and by the end of the week, he did become a Christian.
54:32
SPEAKER_04: Because and I think we've just divorced this idea of nurturing, we nurture the body, yes.
54:36
SPEAKER_04: Some people are good at nurturing, and others go into this other thing, and therefore Paul's email, I think, gets it bang on, really, in terms of we have we have these people, and we we say that he's a good man doing a good work because he's you know, he's out on the front lines, and and all the while the there are bleeding sheep who are bleeding, and we're saying, hush now, hush now, bleeding sheep, you know.
55:05
SPEAKER_04: We've got there's there's a world to win, you know.
55:09
SPEAKER_04: When the Lord is calling us back, will you nurture the flock?
55:13
SPEAKER_04: Will you will you see to the health of the body?
55:15
SPEAKER_04: Because when you see to the health of the body, the body will grow.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:20
SPEAKER_00: So I mean that just sounds so obvious, really, doesn't it?
55:24
SPEAKER_00: So and so biblical.
55:26
unknown: Yeah.
55:27
SPEAKER_01: And again, I sit there and I kind of go like how how how do we get how do we get to where we are in these circles, you know, when it's so obvious, and I don't think anyone would disagree with you either.
55:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think off the top of the I don't think people in the circles we move in would say, no, I don't think that's right.
55:49
SPEAKER_04: Except that the Titanic's going down.
55:51
SPEAKER_04: Right.
55:52
SPEAKER_04: And if the Titanic's going down, it doesn't matter if you're an emotional wreck right now or you've subbed your toe or whatever.
55:59
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
55:59
SPEAKER_04: Get rescuing.
56:00
SPEAKER_04: You know?
56:01
SPEAKER_04: Like if that's so I do think there's a mystiological sort of issue where there's God up here and there's the world go down.
56:09
SPEAKER_04: And and that's not to say I don't think the world is lost and in need of rescue.
56:12
SPEAKER_04: It's just that it's it's just that God's means of rescuing the world is the church.
56:19
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like God's means of rescuing the world.
56:22
SPEAKER_04: So D.
56:22
SPEAKER_04: L.
56:23
SPEAKER_04: Moody, who, you know, Evangelical's love, um, you know, back in the 19th century, he said, I look upon this world as a wrecked vessel, wrecked boat.
56:34
SPEAKER_04: You know, think of the Titanic, it's before the Titanic, but you know, I I look upon this world as a sinking ship.
56:39
SPEAKER_04: God has said to be moody, save all you can.
56:44
SPEAKER_04: Right?
56:45
SPEAKER_04: And now everyone wants to be moody, you know, and and let alone, because we, you know, we don't we we haven't got any concept of the capital E evangelist and the life of mission that the whole church shares in.
56:59
SPEAKER_04: And so everybody's an evangelist.
57:01
SPEAKER_04: So guess what?
57:01
SPEAKER_04: Everyone's a DL moody.
57:03
SPEAKER_04: Right, yeah.
57:04
SPEAKER_04: So guess what?
57:04
SPEAKER_04: The Titanic's going down, and God says to you, Paul Feasy, save what you can.
57:09
SPEAKER_04: And if that's if that's life, then like quite quite seriously.
57:15
SPEAKER_04: Who cares if you have a headache?
57:16
SPEAKER_04: Who cares if you're not emotionally well put together right now?
57:20
SPEAKER_04: Who who cares if your heart's not in it?
57:22
SPEAKER_04: Right?
57:24
SPEAKER_04: The Titanic's going down.
57:26
SPEAKER_04: I don't care how you feel about it, Paul Feasy.
57:29
SPEAKER_04: God has said you.
57:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's true.
57:34
SPEAKER_02: I think I can see how that is that that is definitely technically a capacitude.
57:39
SPEAKER_04: Whereas, I don't know, I mean, we were thinking earlier about AA, and um, and I said I said to you earlier that I don't think AA advertise.
57:49
SPEAKER_04: And we we then Googled and we we saw that they have dabbled in different advertising, but they're they don't have a big social media presence.
57:56
SPEAKER_04: They they're not like constantly saying, Do you want to get sober, join AA?
58:01
SPEAKER_04: Um, what do they rely on?
58:03
SPEAKER_04: Because it like it's it's a phenomenal thing.
58:05
SPEAKER_04: There are 4,000 AA groups in Europe and and um like many more in the United States, and it's been going for about a hundred years, um, and there's no advertising.
58:17
SPEAKER_04: And then like when when the people were asked, when AA was asked, you know, why don't you advertise?
58:22
SPEAKER_04: And they they said, um, we're into word of mouth and um what do they say, representations, you know, they're into bringing a friend along, you know.
58:33
SPEAKER_04: And what is your path into AA?
58:35
SPEAKER_04: It's not that you see a guy on a street corner with a megaphone, and it's it's not that you see billboards on the tube, it's that you have encountered somebody else at their point of need, and they've they've been transformed.
58:47
SPEAKER_04: And the person who is transformed by AA, they can't shut up about AA.
58:51
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
58:52
SPEAKER_04: And, you know, when you're ready to admit that you're in a place where you need AA, that friends is gonna get you along there.
59:02
SPEAKER_04: And and the whole thing, you know, I just think that's that's kind of an interesting model.
59:06
SPEAKER_04: It's not boot camp, you know.
59:09
SPEAKER_04: What if church was more like AA, where we work on our own transformation such that when we're out there in the world, most people won't be ready to hear the message we have, but some people will recognize the need, just as an alcoholic might recognize at some point they hit rock bottom and they say, uh, Paul seems to have an answer to this, I'll go to Paul.
59:31
SPEAKER_04: What would it be like for church to be like that?
59:33
SPEAKER_04: And then at that point, working on myself is not is not the alternative to being evangelistic.
59:39
SPEAKER_04: And shepherding my own heart and my soul, and like being a salty kind of a person in the world is not the opposite of being evangelistic, it's it's just it's just part and parcel of it.
59:52
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um Kathy C says, healthy body will grow.
59:58
SPEAKER_04: Healthy body will grow right on.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_04: Um, this is interesting.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_04: Beverly um pender said absolutely the the Tamar message was possibly the most important I've heard this year.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_04: Well, that's yeah, well, it's I think it was from God, Beverly, and um it's been teaching me too that that that message.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_04: Um so lots to lots to chew on.
1:00:22
SPEAKER_04: And um just want to say to uh Paul who sent us this email.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_04: Um we've been chewing on it uh for the last we've had some back and forth with um with Paul.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_04: And we've been chewing on this uh the whole time, really.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_04: And uh yeah, I think there's there's lots to consider um when it comes to when it comes to mission.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_04: It's an organic mission about the health of the body.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_04: If the body's healthy, it will grow.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_04: So let's let's return to the health of the body.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's all for us.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback and comments on the things that we talk about on the show.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_01: So please do feel free to get in touch with us.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can do that by emailing info at speaklife.org.uk to let us know what you think, or do join us over on our Facebook page, facebook.com forward slash speaklifeuk, where there's always lively discussion.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: We hope to see you again next week, but until then, keep speaking life.