Latest / Beyond The Beacon / 57: A lifetime of saving babies and caring for mothers

Transcript

57: A lifetime of saving babies and caring for mothers · Beyond The Beacon

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beyond the Beacon with Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson in the great state of New Jersey.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Join us for weekly conversations about our Catholic faith, and together let's live a life of faith, hope, and love.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: I am Cecile Pagliarulo, and with me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: Hello, Cecile.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: How are you?
0:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm good.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Good.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Busy uh time of year for the Catholic Church.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: That it is, yes.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh especially with ordinations.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean I know this is recording after the ordination of the transitional deacon Carlos Pinagos at St.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Margaret of Scotland in Morristown this past Saturday.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: And then this coming Saturday, uh uh Sebastian Munoz will be ordained a priest for our diocese in our Cathedral of St.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: John the Baptist.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: I think at 10 or 1030.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: But this will be airing afterwards.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: So uh uh please, God, uh we'll have a new priest by the time uh this is on the air.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: So thanks be to God for um the young men who uh hear the Lord's call and respond to that call, and so many who helped them along the way from their parents and families, uh priests and catechists in their parishes and schools, and then like both Carlos and Sebastian, they've come to us from other places, uh both from originally from Colombia.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Um but um as I mentioned last week when at St.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: Margaret's for Carlos uh um in the the um we just finished the Easter season and we reflect on the acts of the apostles and that community of believers, you know, that those first parishes that uh continue um that beautiful um celebration of the sacraments and the Eucharist and and those families of faith.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And when especially when young men come to us from outside of the country, they need to be welcomed.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: And our parishes and families and priests, pastors do such a good job of uh welcoming them and then walking the journey with them.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: And so then to reach the Achinata priesthood, it's it's a joyous moment for for many, uh, not only the young man being ordained, but and his family and the diocese, but for those who have walked the journey with him on the way, and not to forget the seminary faculty and professors and formators who do a great job in in uh in in helping our young men to discern.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: Right, that's right.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: It takes the church.
2:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
2:25
SPEAKER_02: With a good parish and a good seminary.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm also seeing a lot of priest anniversaries.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: It's uh oh yes, right.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh our next guest is actually connected to a priest.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: I know I I feel bad to give him a shout out, but uh he means he's he means he's married to her my heart.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: Who was that?
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Father Wayne Varga.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: He baptized my fifty years, and uh he baptized my daughter, and he was the I had seven priests at my wedding.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: I guess when you work for their church, just get a lot of priests that come to your wedding, and uh including Bishop Saratelli, but but uh Father Wayne was the only one that actually made the reception at the brownstone and uh wonderful and we have him saying the grace at our wedding.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: We uh on this coming Tuesday, the fourth, we'll have our annual priest jubilee mass, and uh we'll celebrate, especially those celebrating 50 and 40 and 25 years, and I think we have a couple that are um even 60 or 55, and Monsignor Kevin Flanagan, who's gonna preach the homily, celebrating his 65th anniversary of ordination and going strong.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: So uh yes, I'm looking forward to that.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: And it's a time for all the priests of the diocese to come together and and share some uh prayer together and and some time together.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh very much looking forward to that.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: And uh the next week also is uh high school graduation week, uh Pope John on Monday, I think Morris Catholic on Wednesday, DePaul on Thursday, and Mary Help of Christians, I think on the Saturday.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: So looking forward to those um moments.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: And happy to have Chris Bell with us.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh Chris, thanks for being here.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: I'm really grateful.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: So uh just to introduce Christopher Bell or Chris, okay.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: So Christopher Bell is co-founder of Good Council Homes, an organization that has provided care to mothers and babies in need since 1985.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: He is married to Joan Andrews Bell, a legendary pro-life advocate, recently sentenced to prison for two years.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Is it two years or yeah, 27 months?
4:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 27 months for her involvement in a sit-in at a Washington, D.C.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: abortion clinic.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: The loving couple have seven children, six of whom are adopted, and seven grandchildren, and one is on the way.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Doing October.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: And uh Bell and his family are parishioners of St.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: James Church in Montague, the farthest reach of the diocese of the world.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: The Northwest Corner.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: The Northwest, yeah, the North Tappa, New Jersey.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Very grateful to be here.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Chris, for being here.
4:53
SPEAKER_02: Looking forward to the conversation.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: I've been looking forward to this for a while.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh as uh you I remember still uh getting a note, a letter at St.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: Michael's in Brooklyn when I was announced that I was coming.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: And uh maybe we had a little contact uh uh before, but I'm not sure in person.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: And uh um I had heard the name of of Joan Andrews and Joan Andrews Bell for many years, as we'll talk about.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: But um but uh I thank you for that note of welcome when I was coming to the diocese.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: And uh I appreciate we had a mutual friend who who lived virtually on the street and who you were very kind to and uh Oh yes, right.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: For a second I thought you were talking about Monsignor Riley, but he was on the street.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: He was on the street a lot too.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: Praying in front of a court.
5:35
SPEAKER_02: We didn't have we didn't know that I didn't know that could be a good thing.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: We had another mutual friend as well.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes, of happy memory, yes, yes, right, right.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: So maybe uh we'll begin with a prayer.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: Um wanted to uh been wanting to have Chris on for a while, but um the end of this month, June 24th, um really are um we have two you could say the ass and feast days, the feast of Saint the birth of St.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: John the Baptist, June 24th, and then our cathedral was rededicated on I think in 2017 on June 25th.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: Um but uh under the patronage of St.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: John the Baptist, um we celebrate his birth on June 24th, six months before Christmas.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: He's six months older than Jesus, right?
6:11
SPEAKER_02: Um so um in God's mysterious plan.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: Two years ago in 2022, on June 24th, um the Supreme Court announced the what's now known as the Dobbs decision and overturning uh Roe vs.
6:25
SPEAKER_02: Wade, which made in 1973 abortion sadly illegal uh sadly legal throughout the whole country.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: Um and um some thought it would never be overturned, and we know there's many different opinions about it, but um uh we pray for that our laws would respect the dignity and value of human life from the moment of conception, and at least the Dobbs decision gives states that opportunity to protect life um from the moment of conception.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: And so I thought it might be appropriate that we pray in our prayer uh the opening prayer of the Mass for the birth of John the Baptist um coming up on on June 24th.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: So let us place ourselves in God's presence in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
7:12
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: Giving thanks to God for the gifts and blessings of each day and asking the help of the Holy Spirit, the intercession of Mary, our Blessed Mother, and the saints, we pray.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Oh God, who raised up Saint John the Baptist to make ready a nation fit for Christ the Lord, give your people, we pray, the grace of spiritual joys, and direct the hearts of all the faithful into the way of salvation and peace through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God forever and ever.
7:50
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Our Lady's seat of wisdom, pray for us, Saint Joseph, pray for us, Saint John the Baptist, pray for us, and all holy men and women pray.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: Pray for us in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
8:02
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: So, Chris, I guess we should start off uh talking about a good council home.
8:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh you founded it with a very famous, I guess, Franciscan friar of the room, candidate Rochelle in 1985.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh this is something from the website.
8:59
SPEAKER_01: We're not just a shelter for a pregnant woman in crisis.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: We're a loving home.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: We offer care and compassion for any pregnant woman in need.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: So can you tell us a little bit about it?
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Sure, and and uh I'll tell you the genesis of that.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: I was living and working in Times Square helping homeless and runaway kids, and it was there that I saw for the first time, you know, women who were pregnant and had children and no place to go.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Some of them coming from, you know, not only Queens, obviously, but also Long Island, where I grew up, and it made me realize that there was a greater need.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: There really weren't that many beds or programs to help a mom with a baby, especially after she turned 18 years old, because then she was, you know, old enough to vote and be on her own.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's one thing for a young guy who's homeless and struggling, uh, but I saw in the young women who were coming into this shelter, you know, the desire to go back to school and to find a job.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: So I turned to my spiritual director, Father Benedict Rochelle, at the time, and he um uh you know heard my plight and and anguish.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: Uh and when I told him about maybe God was asking me to start a home for mothers and babies, he uh you know stroked his beard.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: Now I can show it on a little bit, and he said, you know, maybe you ought to do maybe maybe you ought to do something about this.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: And he said, I'll help you.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: And when he said I'll help you, it sounded like the voice of God.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: And I was terrified because I was 27 years old, single, never married.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: I hadn't changed that many diapers.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't know about you, Bishop Kevin.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: So it was both terrifying but challenging, and also realizing if it was God's call that God would help me.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And we found an empty convent in Hoboken.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: I call it the East Bank, the left bank, you know.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and um it was there in St.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Francis Parish that we opened up the doors of that former convent to take in women and children.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: The first woman actually came from Brooklyn.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: Was that right?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: And where was that first home again?
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh in Hoboken.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: In Hoboken.
11:04
SPEAKER_02: And how did you find it?
11:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh it was an empty convent that the uh group I was working with had a lay prayer community and they used it for a while for some of the members to live and pray there, but they had just left it.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: So I said, Could I use it?
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And they said, sure.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: And the pastor who was a Franciscan priest also said, Go right ahead, you know, and uh do what you can.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: And with the grace of God, uh Debbie the first mom, who came from Brooklyn actually, uh came in and she taught me even more that I needed to know.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: And I'll I'll tell you quickly about her if you want.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: She uh said to me after she felt some trust and confidence that this wasn't the first time she was pregnant.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: When she was in high school, she was pregnant, and her mom said we have to take care of this problem.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: And you know, this is going back to 1985, and this she she was telling me what happened, you know, a few years earlier.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: It happens today.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: They told her it was a little blob of bloody tissue, you're not gonna feel any pain, and uh you go back to school in a few days, you'll be fine.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: And when she told me what happened, she said, Chris, um where do you think my first baby is now?
12:17
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know what to say to her.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: And uh and and so you know that began my journey really to become more active in the pro-life movement because I knew our homes for mothers and babies would help those, you know, who might otherwise have an abortion, but now I realize this is 1985 that women are hurt by abortion.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't help them, and they live with that scar and that sadness always.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh I was uh either a um ending my freshman year or starting my sophomore year of high school in 1985.
12:54
SPEAKER_02: And as I've shared before, the priest who was uh that Monsignor Raleigh who we just mentioned was the rector of my high school and a great advocate on behalf of life, and uh he was kind of my introduction to the pro-life movement.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: As you mentioned, was it Debbie?
13:09
SPEAKER_02: Debbie?
13:11
SPEAKER_02: And and Father Grischel, we you know use that phrase, God works in mysterious ways.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: And uh we think of the people that God brings into our lives.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: Um Father Gershel had a great impact on my vocation and um and uh how you know we can learn in class what we believe are in the catechism, but so often it's through the testimony of people's lives.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: And you know, as you uh speak about sadly, um unfortunately it has become in so many ways an industry, the abortion industry, the um Planned Parenthood.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Um yet um we know that there's strong feelings and emotions on different sides.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: Um the the use of the phrase, you know, pro-choice or women's rights.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: And um I think we uh need to always speak the truth with love and and let moms know that we're not judging them.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: And and I'm sure that happens in uh in Good Council Home, right?
14:12
SPEAKER_02: It's uh the uh support, love, and and and uh Cecile was gonna ask about uh another work that you have uh in healing for moms who have or suffering or hurting from abortion.
14:24
SPEAKER_02: Right the name again?
14:25
SPEAKER_01: Alumina.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Alumina, uh which means light, and it's our post-abortion healing program.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: And that developed out of not only Debbie's witness to me, but many, many other women, about half the women who come to good counsel homes.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: So it's a maternity, we have four maternity homes now.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh three in New York and and the one in New Jersey has moved down to Riverside, Diocese of Trenton, actually.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And uh because so many women have had an abortion and they usually become pregnant within two years afterwards, some would call that an atonement baby.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: I realize the pain women and men are going through in the loss of a child.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: So we started a post-abortion healing program for men and women.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: It's not just for those at Good Counsel called Lumina.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: And if you go to Good Counsel's website, which is goodcounselhomes.org, you can find on the homepage, you know, Lumina and find post-abortion healing for men and women.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh we know that everybody suffers from the loss of a child, even if it's a miscarriage or a stillbirth.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: It's not just the the mom, of course, but the father and uh family, grandparents, and everybody related, because it's it's a a human being, it's one of us.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, the child may not have lived very long, or maybe you never saw their their face, but it's still someone who has a soul.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: We know how to do it.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: Um as you mentioned, the um uh your your website, uh we're happy that Cecil is uh sitting in for Jay today and with us, and uh uh you'll be able to Cecile's uh my go-to person with uh social media and so you'll be able to share that, right?
16:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh with the link.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: And um uh certainly our own Daasin website, the work that Solange does, um, and uh any Hansberger who's been um our acting director of the of the Pro Life Office um recently uh uh coordinated with Julie McGurn and some others uh uh a mass for healing um of moms who have lost anyone who's lost a child at St.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: Vincent Martyr uh in Madison.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: Chris, I'm not sure if you I think Went to date on that.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: I think it happened about two weeks ago.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Oh it happened right.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: Well that's wonderful, but you'll do another one, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_02: So you know you know today.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: If we haven't posted about that, we we should because uh I heard it was beautiful.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Father uh Jesus uh Peralta, one of our priests, uh preached, and um so it'd be good for um You know, because all of us, every adult in America knows someone, usually more than one, who's had an abortion.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: And the message that we certainly as Catholic Christians, but everybody should be sharing is that God forgives.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
17:02
SPEAKER_00: And we want people to know God forgives and the mercy of God is is for everyone, and there's no sin, not even abortion, that cannot be forgiven.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
17:11
SPEAKER_02: And the and the mystery of the cross of the Lord suffering, um uh you know, the experience of moms and and dads families who have had miscarriages.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh, um, you know, so that's the loss of a child as well.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: And uh and and so that was uh part of the mess.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, Cecile.
17:27
SPEAKER_01: I I mean going back to that, God forgives uh doing my job working for the beacon.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I remember reading an article about a woman who or a college student who had an abortion, and her fellow peers would tell her basically kind of get over it because it's the message is glamorized in such a way.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm a woman, and the message is such it's glamorized in such a way where oh, I feel like my rights are being taken away.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: And her friends were basically saying, you should get over what had happened, you know, get back on your feet.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh and where she found healing and non-judgment was the Catholic Church.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important that the Catholic Church is known for supporting women that have had abortions.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Because again, yes, Jesus, God forgives.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: And you don't have to be Catholic to find that healing either.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm sure people listening may know others who are not practicing their faith or not uh religious at all.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: And at Lumina, we have secular counselors and women and men who've been through this and found peace and reconciliation.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: Right.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: So the healing that only can come from God.
18:36
SPEAKER_02: It does come from God.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you like AA, you gotta start.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: You've got to start somewhere that's not religious.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and so please, what I tell uh everybody when I speak is um tell uh people J gee, I heard that you can be forgiven for an abortion, and somebody usually responds, oh, it's the best thing I ever did, or I never it never bothered me.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And my response is, I'm sorry.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: I feel very sorry for the loss of your child and for what happened to you, the reason that drove you to do this.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: And whether people respond in anger after that or not, they've heard the words because I'm sure, Bishop, you may have had the experience of going to a nursing home and having a woman say to you, many, many years ago, I had an abortion.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: So uh you know, you mentioned that the Good Council home started in 1985 to think that that's that was only 12 years after the the Roe decision.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: And uh I think sometimes the church is identified, and as we should be, um, for raising our voice to say that life begins from conception, and uh certainly as St.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: Pope John Paul II um talked about the culture of life and how we have to build a culture of life.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: And we have that responsibility as faithful citizens to um be politically aware and and consider who who we vote for.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: Um but uh the maybe what not everybody has been as aware of, um you know, last few years the the USCCB has uh encouraged this program, walking with moms in need.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: So as we're talking about those who need healing after an abortion, we also pray, and and certainly Chris and and and and good counsel's homes try to say to a mom who is in need, who is pregnant, who's maybe faced with that decision, there's help available, right?
20:23
SPEAKER_02: And and that's kind of always been the case for the church, but maybe because sometimes the focus was or the intention was on some of the political debate or advocacy which is necessary, um Catholic charities and other parishes, as you talked about, a priest uh, you know, who the the the mom who didn't find uh compassion from her peers or siblings found it in the church.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: But um uh the church has been there um for the mom um before the child is born and after the child is born as well, right?
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: So uh good counsel takes in any pregnant mom in need.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: So we're a home, we're not just a storefront, but there are more than 3,000 pregnancy centers offering direct aid to women who don't need housing and support and guidance and counseling, even medical care.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh but maternity homes like Good Counsel, there are more than 230 maternity homes throughout the United States, and and we can house women.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: So there should be no pregnant woman in in the sound of our voices who cannot get help.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: And um and and that uh voice needs to the message needs to get out.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: And I know you'll it's it's on it's out there, right, on online.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe people finding it is not always as as well.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: I I think really ultimately is just changing the culture.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh hope come to a point where this isn't even a problem.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: I know Solange, she was talking about she speaks with tea with young people that she doesn't want to meet you at.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Solange, who does a great deal of sidewalk counseling, um but she also does uh speaking to youth groups and will you know uh um about chastity and what it means to uh wait for marriage and uh be open to life when when it's appropriate after marriage.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh um but uh in the uh uh maybe two things, the society and culture that we live in make that so difficult, especially for our young people.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh and then um you sp you speak of uh pregnancy centers and unfortunately in the political environment that we're in at the moment, um some of those uh centers have become targets either for politicians or others that uh because they see them as uh helping the mom say yes to life, they see them as their at least political uh adversary.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: We we offer life giving alternatives and support for anybody of any background, uh And you know, and the church has been doing this for forever.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: But as you're also pointing out, the uh the cultural leaders in our nation have been attacking uh not only the church, but all pro-lifers.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: Cecile mentioned uh Joan, and uh I think it's important uh to uh give you the opportunity uh to share a few words about um her witness um and those with her uh who are um sacrificing uh just maybe to say is uh by way of introduction uh and what the discussion we're having.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh I know some may uh question it, but um you know, another time in our history when the law did not recognize the dignity of the human person was um those who came to us from Africa and who because of the color of their skin were their rights were taken away and were enslaved.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: And then even after um emancipation, uh that in many places um uh our sisters and brothers of um uh because of the color of their skin and their race did not have uh the rights that they but they rose up um and they raised their voices and they had a leader in Dr.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: King and many, many others who nonviolence um uh calling to the speaking to the conscience, that we still have a conscience, I believe, as a nation.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh and so um uh from my own experience in the in in the pro-life movement, it's so much that we can learn and have learned from the civil rights movement um of civil disobedience and um speaking for those who don't have a voice um and appealing to conscience.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: So I believe that's some of what Joan has been doing and others in Operation Rescue and in other ways, right?
24:23
SPEAKER_00: So my d yes, my my dear wife, just a quick background of her.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: So she was born in Nashville, Tennessee, and uh she purposely went this is in the 60s, she's a bit older than than I, and the 60s went to a integrated high school uh and was involved with civil rights and then the peace movement until she found that some members of the peace movement weren't so peaceful.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: They certainly weren't all pacifists.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: And then uh she was shocked when Roe v.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Wade was overturned and immediately thought that Christians would rise up.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: When Roe v.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: Wade was decided.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: There would just be a massive uprising and would shut these places down and was devastated to the point of depression that that didn't happen.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Not only was it accepted, but now it was Dr.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: King in his letter from the Birmingham Jail, right, speaking to pastors.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, it was it was yeah, so d devastating.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: So um so how did I meet Joan?
25:21
SPEAKER_02: She got out of her depression, though.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh she Yeah, yeah, because God told her that he loves everybody, even those who are persecuting us, right?
25:29
SPEAKER_00: And and that it was through her faith that brought her to another level and still does.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: So um she's in jail right now, and uh I should say that's how I met her.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh when I got involved uh in opening Good Counsel homes for mothers and babies, I went to my first March for Life in Washington, D.C., because now I realize we had to talk about women helping women as well as the child.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: You have to help the mom to help get the baby born.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's what good counsel is all about.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's really what the pro-life movement is about, but people don't always perceive it that way.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: Certainly the public and again the cultural leaders don't want to be don't want us to be seen that way.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: So uh I heard about this woman in jail for peacefully, prayerfully, she's a total pacifist trying to stop an abortion by literally walking in to the abortion office and sitting down and saying, I will not move.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: And that uh disrupts everything going on.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: I think some of our listeners or or viewers um may not have heard Operation Rescue as those of us who in in the 1980s or 90s would have heard that really movement of um uh civil disobedience to try to uh let people know that uh in those clinics the lives are being taken.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: And uh so uh I know Joan was I remember hearing her name.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Now she wasn't, I have to admit, she she's often seen as like the foundress or or the mother of uh uh of rescue.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: She's not at all.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: And she's not a leader per se, but she has often multi-participant.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes, she since the 19 since 19 uh eighty, actually, is when she did her first.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Now we call them rescues.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: Because you're going in to try to rescue a child to just sit but peacefully doing it and not harming anybody and offering support to the mothers and telling them of other places they could go.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: So what happened recently, uh actually October uh 2020, she went to a late-term abortionist office.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: And you know that happens here in New Jersey, in Englewood, there's a an infamous late-term abortionist, and uh and not only in Washington, D.C., New York, throughout the country where abortion uh continues to be protected and paid for by tax dollars, uh, there are late-term abortionists.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: And in D.C., uh October 22nd, 2020, she went in there with a group of people.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: So uh last year, the Department of Justice uh uh came at her and uh now groups of people who have done these peaceful rescues uh and uh prosecuted them in federal court.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So she was found guilty of breaking face, the freedom to access clinic entry, which is really an abortion protection law, which should be also uh thrown out.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh she's now serving 27 months in in jail uh for doing that.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Uh she did call me uh the other night, and her spirits are still good because she knows, we know, this is a a greater opportunity, not only for prayer, but reparation, as you mentioned.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: And there are two groups, right?
28:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh how many uh uh Yeah, well there were uh actually a total of 10 people sent us there.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: Ten people and they had two trials to do that.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, right.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, we pray for her as we've we've been and we will.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: And uh again, uh we only know how God can work through these acts of love and and sacrifice.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's one thing to say we believe in something, it's another thing to be put it on the line and and and and give up our freedom to um to for for what we believe.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: So we thank Joan and and uh you're there supporting her every every step of the way.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: So I'm still behind.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm just behind, yes.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: So um, well, where do you see the current state of the pro-life movement and even the future?
29:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a great question that we all should be reflecting on right now.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: But today, everybody still can and should obviously pray to end abortion.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: And as Monsignor Riley taught us, not only to pray in our churches in adoration, no matter what your age, if you can stand up, please go.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And even if you need a chair, go to where abortion is happening.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's legal, it's still we have First Amendment rights, we have uh religious freedom and freedom of speech.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: You can go in front of the abortion mills, whether it's a doctor's office, a planned parenthood facility, or a hospital.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: Some hospitals are doing abortions, you you just have to find out where.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: But but pro-lifers know.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: And you go and you could sit or you can stand and pray.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: And you don't even need to have your rosaries showing.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: You can just sit there quietly and pray.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: And what Monsignor Riley has taught us is that even if one person is standing in front of that door, quietly praying, no signs, nothing, it disrupts the operations inside the facility because this essentially is a spiritual battle.
30:27
SPEAKER_02: And it's also um an experience of love for that child uh that might be the mom is struggling at that time if the abortion takes place, um that person outside uh was loving and praying for that child.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's the most beautiful and essential element because even if no babies are literally saved and mom's turned away, uh and and Joan repeats this often, that baby will know there was somebody who loved him or her at that moment of death in this life, and that is true forever.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And let me add something else that I only found out years later from our post-abortion counselors, that women now, 10 years later or 20 years later, say my baby died alone, and the counselors can say, Was anybody out there?
31:16
SPEAKER_00: And very often that mom can say, Yes, I I saw someone out there.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: And that mom will often say, I remember their eyes looking at me, not with condemnation, but with prayerful love.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: And then that counselor can say, your baby didn't die alone, because that person out there praying was praying for you and your baby.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's what brought you here to find healing and hope today.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, God, as you know, brings good out of everything, even uh destruction.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: And um where we had the ordination this past Saturday, St.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: Morgan of Scotland Parish in um in uh in Morristown, Father Dubernay and the parishioners there.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, there's a Planned Parenthood Center just a few blocks from the church.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: And um since I guess September, October now, um I've tried to go each month for for mass and and and we have a simple prayerful procession and pray the rosary.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: Um the first time.
32:14
SPEAKER_02: And I've been happy.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I've been happy to join you.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: And it is uh in rain or shine.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: It's uh but it's been beautiful and uh and and police protected, I might add.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: The police escort us down there.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: And Bishop, you're you're a great leader in doing that because it's it's it's as low-key as you can get with you know a small group of people of a couple of hundred.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh but we that that mass before is very powerful.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: And then saying the rosary walking down the block.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh it we we we know that it's through the intercession of Our Lady, essentially, like Our Lady of Guadalupe.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how beautiful.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for doing that.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: So I hope people listening to us will join you.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: First Saturday at St.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Margaret of Scotland.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: By the time they're hearing this, it'll be the first Saturday in July.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: Actually, the first Saturday in June, I'm gonna go for the Mass and then head to Patterson for the priesthood ordination.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: But uh Father Dubinet said that people will um will uh be the session.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: I think one of the deacons might be there with them.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: So but I I still want to be there for the mass because uh that prayer is so important.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: Great leader.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: And uh up and speaking of marching and there will be a New Jersey March for Life, first time in history, I believe.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: And it's September 26th.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: 26th, yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh in Trenton, right?
33:32
SPEAKER_00: And uh I know you uh are leading uh a number of buses that we're gonna right from this diocese, but we've been reaching out to our pastors and our schools.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: We had a meeting uh last just a few days ago.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: Uh and and uh maybe you could say a word about um uh the women and men uh in the pro-life movement and ministry.
33:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh uh you helped even two years ago to bring some of them together so that we could have a pro-life convocation.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: Um many of them were together a few days ago to talk about working together for the march.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: I know Morris County Right for Right to Life.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: There's a a group in Denville and Rockaway that um uh um uh have a great uh pro-life ministry.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe some of your experience of some of the other uh uh respect life leaders, especially here in uh in northern New Jersey.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh in uh Denville, Rockville, uh St.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: Cecilia's Parish, St.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh Mary's, and I'm Rockaway, yep.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's one other forgive me.
34:26
SPEAKER_02: Maybe Sacred Heart.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: Sacred Heart.
34:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: Well they've just come together to work together in their respective parishes, but as a group, so they do uh collections for uh uh pregnant moms like ours.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh baby showers, right?
34:41
SPEAKER_02: The baby showing.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: Right, yes.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, just to get the word out, again, everybody can pray.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: You certainly can pray on your own.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: To pray together, whether in church or on the street, is very powerful and important.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Because you know, the other thing about being in front of the abortion mill, I'll mention one more time, is you don't know how many women and men driving their women will just see someone out there, and that's the sign, literally, they were looking for not to go in.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll never know that in this life, but that will be the sign, and they'll go by, and and that's because somebody was there.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh and then, of course, helping uh not only good council maternity homes, but there are other maternity homes throughout the state, several sources.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: The artists of Newark, right?
35:25
SPEAKER_00: Has um many um, well, Mercy Mercy How's Passing Mercy Mercy Homes, uh they distribute and and support women in need.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh the Friars of the Renewal, as you know, have in Patterson.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: And in Newark?
35:38
SPEAKER_00: And they have uh supporting the Sisters of Life, thank God for the Sisters of Life.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: We got to get them here.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: Please God, someday not not far off.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh so you can support pregnancy centers, maternity homes, uh, and you can volunteer in your parish uh to be part of or start a respect life community and do things to educate.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: There are too many people in our pews, much less people outside in the community who just don't know there are real alternatives to abortion.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: We didn't even start to talk about adoption or foster care or how other how we could help.
36:14
SPEAKER_00: And I'll just mention briefly, since I am an adoptive father also, that you know, even if you're married and have children, consider that, you know, there are children who can be adopted.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whether they're they're newborns or whether they're toddlers or whether they're teenagers, even uh they need a loving home.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: And if you have a loving home, think about how God wants to expand it because ultimately the pro-life movement is about love, right?
36:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, people where people are saying we don't need these babies, there are too many people in the world.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: We're saying, you know, God loves every one of us, no matter how able or not, no matter where we're from or not, you know, we can support another baby and we can love another baby because it's about love.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: And love means life, and and life means hope, and and hope brings creativity, and and and and this is good.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: This is what what the good of living is about.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: Um Jesus said when he told the apostles at the last supper and tells us that um there's no greater love than this than to lay down your life.
37:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh he was either just before or after is when he said, I have told you this so that my joy might be in you and your joy might be complete.
37:22
SPEAKER_02: Um that joy uh that comes from uh those sacrifices that are made in love um to open a home or to uh have one more child at the table or um uh uh or um be there for a mom that's that's struggling.
37:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh um we it's it's beyond words um the joy that God can give us through some of those experiences, right?
37:44
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
37:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's and and sacrificing that we find a deeper love for one another, right?
37:49
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's in marriage or not, or raising a child or not.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: Or responding to God's call to priesthood or religious.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: Priesthood, yeah.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Sounds good.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else?
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, please go to goodcouncilhomes.org, and that's council C O U N S E L, homes with an S at the end of it, dot O-R-G.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Because we do survive on private donations.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh we're also on Facebook and Instagram and Tw X and uh uh you know, uh YouTube.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: Um and it's good to share online as well as off.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: If people are online, you know it's easier to blast out a message of hope and healing for those who've had an abortion and of help for any woman in a crisis pregnancy.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: And I'll just wrap up with this one thought, because I got a call on the way here from uh somebody who knows somebody who's pregnant with a child, and the doctors are telling this pregnant mom, because the baby has a deformity, to abort the child.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: And here in the United States of America, with the most advanced medical technology and the most well-educated medical personnel in human history, there's never ever a reason to abort a child.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: It's not going to hurt the mother, and often they're wrong when they make these predictions.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: And we're trying to steer this mom who is in great distress, who I haven't talked to directly yet, but trying to steer to a doctor, and there are doctors, good doctors and medical personnel who will support her no matter how healthy or not the child is.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes, thank God uh for good doctors and nurses.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: And we think of Catholics who um work in the medical field and some of the pressures um unfortunately that they're under, um, where they have to um uh uh courageously stand up for what we believe and uh and witness on behalf of life.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: And um, but we we thank God and pray for those many doctors and nurses who who do that.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: And if those are uh we should say for doctors and nurses and others in the medical field, if they run into a problem, there are pro-life organizations willing to defend their right to their conscience and their religious beliefs.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: So you have friends.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: Under the inspiration of St.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: Thomas More, right?
40:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes, the Thomas More Society, among others, yes.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Are you else Bishop?
40:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh we um we thank Chris so much for not only being here today, but for all the work you do, and please um let Joan know that we're praying for her.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: And uh it's always good to many times some of your children are with you when you come on a first Saturday.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: So uh um uh our best to your family and uh um so uh uh we'll keep in touch and we'll be sending um word out about uh the March for Life here in the state of New Jersey at the end of September.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: While September might seem a little ways away, the preparations need to begin now.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: So uh uh so please uh be uh and we'll have information on our website and Cecile will be getting stuff out on social media, right?
40:47
SPEAKER_02: So let's pray, continue to pray for life.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: Yep, especially in our state.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: So that's right, exactly.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Please subscribe, comment, and leave a positive rating.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Get to know us better by following Beyond the Beacon on Facebook and Instagram.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Email questions and podcast topic ideals to beyond at patternsic.org.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Discover our other podcasts, Coffee McCupkey and the Paul Street Journal.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: God bless.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everybody.
41:15
SPEAKER_02: God thanks, Chris.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: Have a great day, God bless you.