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Navigating Your Path - S1E7: A Conversation with Marie-Claire Rowlinson · Navigating Your Path

• 0:06
  Duane Newton: Hi, welcome to Navigating Your Path.
• 0:09
  Duane Newton: My name is Duane Newton.
• 0:12
  Duane Newton: In this episode, I get to chat with a good friend and colleague, Dr.
• 0:16
  Duane Newton: Marie-Claire Rowlinson.
• 0:19
  Duane Newton: Many of you know Marie-Claire from her public health roles with APHL, the Wadsworth Center, and most recently as the chief of the Bureau of Laboratories for the state public health lab in Florida.
• 0:33
  Duane Newton: She's recently made the pivot to industry, where she's taken a medical advisor role with bioMerieux.
• 0:41
  Duane Newton: Today, we talked about how her early life shaped her passion for getting away from where she grew up in London to explore not only the UK, but areas around the globe to broaden her experiences.
• 0:56
  Duane Newton: This gave her a chance to fulfill her desires to learn more about different people, places, and cultures.
• 1:04
  Duane Newton: She described a key lesson from these experiences, particularly from her trips to Africa, that material possessions were really not the key to happiness.
• 1:16
  Duane Newton: Marie-Claire shared some encouraging words she received from a trusted mentor as she embarked on her first job, words she didn't completely believe but really needed to hear.
• 1:28
  Duane Newton: She also discussed her recent transition to industry and how she's learning to maintain her professional identity, maintain the relationships she's developed over her career, and also the value of the support she's received from her colleagues in the process.
• 1:46
  Duane Newton: For those of you watching the video version of this episode, I, I had a little technical snafu.
• 1:51
  Duane Newton: Maybe it would also be really an improvement.
• 1:55
  Duane Newton: I messed up the setup so that you'll get the pleasure of seeing only Marie-Claire's face and not mine through most of the episode.
• 2:03
  Duane Newton: You shouldn't suffer at all from that, though.
• 2:06
  Duane Newton: I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with Marie-Claire Rowlinson I was thinking about, um- Realizing when we really had the first opportunity to talk with each other was at the First Coast meeting in Jacksonville a couple y- like, was that, I guess it was'23
• 2:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: 24- 24
• 2:32
  Duane Newton: Was it January-
• 2:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: No, was it'23?
• 2:34
  Duane Newton: Hmm.
• 2:36
  Duane Newton: Yeah, a couple-
• 2:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I'm thinking'20...
• 2:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Oh, okay.
• 2:38
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah, you're right.
• 2:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It...
• 2:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I'm thinking'24.
• 2:43
  Duane Newton: I, I, you know what?
• 2:44
  Duane Newton: I, you're right because I had, uh, I had left Bio-Rad, and I was, um, I was fully into my coaching development.
• 2:55
  Duane Newton: And so yeah, January of'24.
• 2:58
  Duane Newton: And it's really funny, I think, you know, that certainly I knew your name and your reputation, but I realized that, you know, we hadn't really had any real conversations with each other.
• 3:12
  Duane Newton: And- And j- you know, two years later, it's like I feel like we've known each other forever.
• 3:23
  Duane Newton: And it's just, it was just interesting, like when you find people that you really connect with, that, that, um...
• 3:32
  Duane Newton: That's how it's, you've made me feel, and I, I appreciate that.
• 3:34
  Duane Newton: It's really cool to have that, um, have developed that kind of a friendship in, in such a short period of time.
• 3:45
  Duane Newton: So thanks for being you.
• 3:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And thanks for- No, I agree.
• 3:49
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I knew your name too, but...
• 3:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I'm, I'm sure we'd seen each other at meetings but had not really properly connected.
• 3:57
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 3:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and I loved your talk at First Coast that year.
• 4:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then, um, I gave you a running route.
• 4:07
  Duane Newton: That's right.
• 4:08
  Duane Newton: You gave me a r- uh, I went for a run the next day around the river, and, uh, it was a little toasty even in January, but it, it was great.
• 4:21
  Duane Newton: So I think, you know, bonding in, uh, microbiology and career development and running, so lots of things that we shared.
• 4:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Definitely.
• 4:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I,
• 4:33
  Duane Newton: I, um, I appreciate your willingness to, to come on and, and chat, and, um, give me a chance to learn even more, uh, about you and share that with others.
• 4:46
  Duane Newton: I think, you know, the thing that I'm really dying to hear more about is, you know, your early days and your background and where you grew up and, and coming from the UK.
• 4:59
  Duane Newton: Um, I think I'm a Anglophile.
• 5:03
  Duane Newton: I, I love the UK and, um, the culture and the history and the sports.
• 5:10
  Duane Newton: And so I'm just kinda interested in, um, maybe you can just start by saying, you know, where you grew up and how you got here.
• 5:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah, definitely.
• 5:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, I grew up in London, and I was, I think, always sort of interested in science.
• 5:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I actually had this conversation this last weekend with some, some friends, um, and I was explaining that when I was at school, I was always so envious of my dad because my dad's a violinist.
• 5:49
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He was a violinist with the London Symphony Orchestra.
• 5:51
  Duane Newton: Wow.
• 5:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I was like,"Wouldn't it be amazing to be talented at one thing, just be so brilliant at one thing?" And I always used to get at school,"She's a good all-rounder." And it was funny because my dad would say to me,"No, I, I wanted to be an all-rounder, but I was just good at this one, one thing." So it's funny how, you know, when you, you're not one way, you want to be the other.
• 6:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You want to be the other.
• 6:19
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um.
• 6:19
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 6:21
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, I also always wanted straight hair.
• 6:24
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um-
• 6:26
  Duane Newton: I was gonna...
• 6:27
  Duane Newton: I, I was gonna...
• 6:27
  Duane Newton: That was the thing that, that came to my mind was people with curly hair want straight hair and vice versa, so.
• 6:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 6:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I, uh, I was, I, I guess, a good all-rounder, but I was interested in science, particularly biology.
• 6:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, I do think sometimes it's luck of the draw, right?
• 6:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You get an amazing teacher, um, or an amazing mentor that somehow seems to point you in the right direction and...
• 7:00
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I had a biology teacher.
• 7:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was about 17.
• 7:04
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was thinking about university and college courses, and she said,"I think you would love microbiology." Um, and s- isn't that amazing?
• 7:16
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: At 17.
• 7:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and so I, I did.
• 7:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I did a degree in medical microbiology at the University of Newcastle, which is way up north in England, almost Scotland, and, um, I loved it.
• 7:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Uh, I had a parasitology professor as part of that course, and I just thought his, his teaching and his energy was so infectious.
• 7:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Do you get that?
• 7:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, um, and so then I, I...
• 7:51
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: then I had decided I wanted to p- pursue a PhD in parasitology, and that's what I did.
• 7:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, uh, I did...
• 7:59
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, and during that time as well, during my undergraduate, I did an internship at the London School of Hygiene Tropical Medicine over one summer.
• 8:08
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then I went to do a PhD in molecular parasitology at University of Nottingham.
• 8:16
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, I think as I was coming to the end of it, I realized that when you do, you know, do basic research like that and you, you c- carry on and then hopefully you get tenure, and then you're a PI and you're always looking for grants.
• 8:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, ooh, two things about it.
• 8:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: One is that constant struggle looking for grants, especially parasitology was not a particularly well-funded area.
• 8:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and, uh, also that you don't really have that connection with, with people.
• 8:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Uh, it's very much you're in the lab doing your research and I- Mm-hmm sort of felt like I wanted to, I guess, have more of a direct impact, uh, in what I was doing
• 9:13
  Duane Newton: I think that theme or I n- I know that theme has been consistent w- with, uh, many of the folks that I've talked to where you kind of y- we come up in this basic science environment and, you know, for different reasons, but similarly felt, you know, there's a disconnect between, you know, what's required to be successful in there and what really, um, matters to us or is important or we value or, you know, is aligned with our authentically the direction that we wanna go.
• 9:51
  Duane Newton: And whether we're articulating at the ti- at, at the time in that way.
• 9:55
  Duane Newton: But, you know, that's, that's been a, a consistent, um, thing.
• 10:00
  Duane Newton: And I, I wanna, I wanna, um, I wanna come back to that, you know, com- coming to that realization.
• 10:11
  Duane Newton: But, you know, there's, there's a lot more, uh, stuff that you kind of skip by that I think I'm, I'm curious, you know, how it impacted you or shaped you.
• 10:24
  Duane Newton: You know, first of all, I had, I had a similar experience, um, in high sch- wh- when I was in high school.
• 10:34
  Duane Newton: A science teacher who I really respected and, and I think I wanted to impress and, you know, um, got me more interested in biology, and so that was always something.
• 10:48
  Duane Newton: And I, and I-- So that, that was very influential.
• 10:53
  Duane Newton: But I, I also had another area, things that I was thinking about from a career standpoint that really intrigued me, but I didn't have any role models or mentors or any w- any guidance on how to pursue that, and I...
• 11:14
  Duane Newton: So I abandoned it.
• 11:15
  Duane Newton: You know, and so I'm curious as to whether you had, you know, a plateful of things that you were thinking about and microbiology hit because you had this one person that you connected with.
• 11:31
  Duane Newton: Or, or was it, you know, was it really, was it kind of a blank slate that, um- was shaped and influenced by, by this person that you really connected with?
• 11:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: No, I d- I definitely wanted to do something science, potentially medically oriented.
• 11:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So she had kind of prep- she was like,"Oh, maybe immunology." Um, but then she really, but she, she was a biology teacher and she said,"I, I really think you'll like microbiology." And so I looked into that and I was like, yes, because there's also that medical side to it, right?
• 12:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um-
• 12:13
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 12:14
  Duane Newton: Well, where did that, where, where did the, the origin of, of that, you know, just that interest, do you remember where that came from?
• 12:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Well, I, I do remember being...
• 12:26
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was probably about the same timeframe.
• 12:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was 17.
• 12:29
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, my sister was living in Tanzania and I went to visit her.
• 12:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, um, when I got back, I got sick.
• 12:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And-
• 12:40
  Duane Newton: Cause when you go to Africa, that's what happens
• 12:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And it took about four months for them to figure out that I had giardia And so I was kind of, I s- I guess that kind of piqued my interest in parasitology even before that amazing teacher at university, because I was like y- I was just fascinated by this whole thing and c- sort of like the process and why it takes so long, and public health and global health.
• 13:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I mean, maybe that planted a seed as well.
• 13:16
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, I just think it's sort of a combination of things and, and life sort of ends up being serendipitous in a way.
• 13:25
  Duane Newton: And what about the, um-
• 13:27
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I also watched the film Outbreak, sorry.
• 13:29
  Duane Newton: Ooh.
• 13:31
  Duane Newton: Also, uh, very influential.
• 13:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I was like,"I wanna be Dustin Hoffman,"
• 13:40
  Duane Newton: obviously.
• 13:45
  Duane Newton: The, um...
• 13:46
  Duane Newton: I think I, I think it's, uh, appropriate to go back and re-watch some of these.
• 13:52
  Duane Newton: Uh, what was the, what was the one that was more, um-
• 13:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Contagion?
• 13:57
  Duane Newton: Contagion.
• 13:58
  Duane Newton: Yeah, I was blanking on the name.
• 13:59
  Duane Newton: Uh-
• 14:00
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Did, did a much better job of accurately portraying things.
• 14:05
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Depicting
• 14:06
  Duane Newton: it.
• 14:06
  Duane Newton: Well- Um- th- they had great, uh, scientific experts that were, um, consultants on the movie.
• 14:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yes, and I actually was at CDC probably around the time it was being filmed, but I obviously didn't know this at the time, and I'm in the cafeteria at CDC and I thought,"God, that person looks just like Kate Winslet." And I'm, like, getting my lunch on my tray and she's getting her lunch on her tray, and I thought,"Oh, try to get to the cashier at the same time she does and see if she has an English accent, and then I'll be like,'Oh my God, are you Kate Winslet?'" Anyway, for some reason I got distracted and I forgot.
• 14:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: End of story.
• 14:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And
• 14:49
  Duane Newton: then obviously- I would not have forgot.
• 14:50
  Duane Newton: I'm just saying I would, like, I have a huge crush on her, just, I'm just acknowledging that.
• 14:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I forgot at the time'cause she just looked like her.
• 14:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Oh.
• 14:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then when it came out after the movie that she'd actually spent a significant amount of time at CDC, I was like,"Ah."
• 15:05
  Duane Newton: Ugh.
• 15:05
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It was her."
• 15:06
  Duane Newton: Oh, my goodness.
• 15:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So, um, my other thing about that movie that I always like to point out is, is the lab people lived and the epidemiologist did not.
• 15:21
  Duane Newton: So
• 15:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: stay in the
• 15:24
  Duane Newton: lab.
• 15:25
  Duane Newton: Stay in the lab.
• 15:25
  Duane Newton: Stay in the lab.
• 15:27
  Duane Newton: G- can, um...
• 15:30
  Duane Newton: I know v- at a very superficial level a little bit about- In New- Newcastle.
• 15:38
  Duane Newton: But it, it, my impression is that, you know, there's a potential for a big culture shock going from London to Newca- Newcastle.
• 15:48
  Duane Newton: Isn't, isn't it more, you know, uh, you, you mentioned much northern climate-wise com- a lot different, uh, more industrial as it, as it turned out?
• 15:59
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Just so- I mean, as, as we like to tease, it's grim up north.
• 16:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but yeah, I mean, um, I wanted to I think I wanted to get a different experience from a London upbringing.
• 16:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I wanted to, in a way, to be as far from home as possible, but still in England.
• 16:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um- Mm and I had thought about Edinburgh, but interestingly, in the UK, um, the, uh, graduate degrees in Edinburgh are four years long, and they're three years in England.
• 16:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I thought,"I wanna be done in three." Um, so I mean And that there were a few schools that were good for microbiology, and the interesting thing about Newcastle is it specifically had a medical microbiology track.
• 16:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so yeah.
• 16:49
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but it, I mean, yes, it was, um, culturally different, but I, I think I enjoy learning about different places and the different foods, and I mean, they have different words for things in Newcastle.
• 17:10
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, it, it, England is like you don't have to go very far to get a completely different accent, a different word for a food item, and, you know, different, um, uh, way of life.
• 17:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, uh, it, it, you know, here, I guess in the US, you probably would travel to another state and experience that.
• 17:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, you know, Newcastle from London is only 300 miles, and- Mm I think it's thr- thr- 300 miles from here in Jacksonville, Florida to Miami, and you're still in Florida.
• 17:41
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 17:42
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 17:42
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but yeah, so it was, it was, it was good for a lot of reasons.
• 17:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 17:49
  Duane Newton: I think, um, that's another line of conversation I wanna have, um, today, is that, um, willingness to, to go out and explore and experience and travel, um, you know, partic- you know, from what I've seen on the pr- on the, on the professional side, I suspect that there, that's also on the personal side.
• 18:12
  Duane Newton: But experiencing those different, different countries and cultures and, um- And, you know, the impact that that's had on you and, but also kind of like where did that come from?
• 18:28
  Duane Newton: But, um, I think let's kind of go down the path, you know, that I interrupted you on, um, o- originally where you, you realizing it's time-- you, you're trying to make a pivot and kind of you realize that, um- You know, a basic science track isn't really aligned.
• 18:53
  Duane Newton: How did that, um...
• 18:55
  Duane Newton: What was that process like for you?
• 18:57
  Duane Newton: Was it like,"Oh, God, now what do I do?" Or,"Hmm, let's see, you know, where this takes me"?
• 19:05
  Duane Newton: Or...
• 19:06
  Duane Newton: Mine was a very traumatic experience.
• 19:08
  Duane Newton: Um, so I'm just curious as to how that, uh, how that whole process came to be for you
• 19:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I don't think it was easy.
• 19:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I wouldn't say it was traumatic, but I definitely had that,"I don't want to do basic research.
• 19:27
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: What do I do?" And my, my, um, all of my research, my field work for my PhD was done in Cameroon in, uh, it's not really West Africa, it's just a little bit below West Africa.
• 19:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and so I had definitely, and I think that's sort of like what you're saying, this, this interest in travel, this interest in global health and, and public health, um, very much.
• 19:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I kind of knew I wanted to do public health, and I, I sort of had this idea that I maybe wanted to train to work in a public health lab, which it's kind of a, a, a different system obviously in, in the UK than to the US.
• 20:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so I did make some inquiries, and they said in order to be a public health laboratorian in the UK, I needed to have done a different undergraduate degree.
• 20:26
  Duane Newton: Mm.
• 20:27
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so it...
• 20:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, at this time I had my PhD, or I was about to, to get my PhD, and it would have meant going back to school for another two or three years.
• 20:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Oh.
• 20:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I just thought I'd...
• 20:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: At, at that point, you know, I just thought,"I don't want to do that." And then you're coming in at, like, a lab technologist level in a public health lab, and I just didn't...
• 20:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Anyway, it just, it seemed like a bit of a barrier, and I didn't realize that just having done a science degree didn't set me up-
• 20:54
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 20:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: for that track.
• 20:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, I thought about potentially going into the civil service, um, because they have a ton of labs.
• 21:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, sort of the equivalent here would be like DOD labs that we have here, like USAMRIID or something.
• 21:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but that, that was, was also going to be difficult.
• 21:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then honestly, I have to tell you the truth, Duane I just- That's what
• 21:23
  Duane Newton: we're all about here
• 21:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I just, I put stuff into Google.
• 21:29
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I think I put in, like, post-doctoral fellowship bioterrorism public health, and guess what popped up.
• 21:37
  Duane Newton: APHL.
• 21:38
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: CPEP.
• 21:39
  Duane Newton: Oh re- oh, really?
• 21:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yes.
• 21:43
  Duane Newton: Oh, wow.
• 21:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And interestingly- Google took you,
• 21:47
  Duane Newton: took, took you that route, huh?
• 21:48
  Duane Newton: That's really interesting.
• 21:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And- I, I love this story too, because obviously I then applied and got into the CPEP program, and I had, um, a fellow post-doc that started at the same time as me, and we'd been there a couple of weeks, and he goes to me,"So are you gonna take the ABMM?" And I was like,"What is that?" And he said like,"Why are you here?" And I'm like,"Well, because I Googled this thing and it looked really exciting." Um,
• 22:25
  Duane Newton: but
• 22:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: s- Who was your
• 22:26
  Duane Newton: co-fellow at the time?
• 22:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, Hank Wang.
• 22:30
  Duane Newton: Okay.
• 22:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but he, he was an amazing person to be co-fellow with.
• 22:38
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He's, he's an MD, um, immigrated from China, and super smart.
• 22:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I was just a young 27-year-old that didn't have a clue what I was doing.
• 22:53
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so he, he, he, he sort of He was a good person to have, um, the, the experience with.
• 23:00
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I think we sort of balanced each other out a bit.
• 23:03
  Duane Newton: And so you went to, um You did your training, your CPEP training at UCLA?
• 23:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yes.
• 23:10
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yes.
• 23:11
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and I think, I don't know, I think I was just lucky because I look at CPEP programs now and o- obviously w- it, this is 20-plus years later, and I just don't know if I would have had the competitive edge now.
• 23:26
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, I had a basic research PhD.
• 23:29
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I had never worked in a clinical lab.
• 23:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, I didn't even know what the ABMM was, and so it's not like I was going into the program with this trajectory of I'm going to be a clinical lab director.
• 23:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I knew I wa- I knew I wanted to do public health and work in a lab, um, but I do- I don't think I was very aware of this hu- huge opportunity I was being given.
• 23:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Mm.
• 23:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You know?
• 23:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um-
• 23:56
  Duane Newton: Yeah, it was a different time.
• 23:58
  Duane Newton: I, in, not as many programs.
• 24:01
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 24:01
  Duane Newton: Um, competitive but not to the level that it is now.
• 24:08
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 24:08
  Duane Newton: And, um, and I, I think, you know, I've had lots of conversations with folks, um- you know, s- students or students of mine when I was teaching that became interested in going down this, you know, recognized during their PhDs that th- they wanted to be more clinically oriented and, and were interested in this.
• 24:32
  Duane Newton: And, you know, I feel like you, you have to have...
• 24:37
  Duane Newton: It's almost like writing a grant where you have to have all the data already in your grant when you submit it, you know, showing that it's gonna work.
• 24:46
  Duane Newton: A- a- and, you know, you have- I feel like folks that are going down this path now, you know, they've, they've had- they've gotta have some connection with a clinical lab, you know, even starting- Yeah as a graduate student.
• 24:58
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, maybe even going to graduate school at, at institutions where these CPEP programs exist so that you can figure out ways to align, you know, with the laboratory as part of, you know, your projects and, you know, sort of cultivate and sh- and demonstrate this interest and aptitude in the field so that you're, you're coming out with, um, a resume that, you know, demonstrates an interest and an understanding of what you're getting into.
• 25:32
  Duane Newton: Because there's just so many people in there, and it's really tough.
• 25:37
  Duane Newton: Um, I don't, I similarly feel like I don't know, I, I don't know that I would've been able to...
• 25:45
  Duane Newton: You know, with my record at that time, I would not be competitive now.
• 25:49
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 25:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 25:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, I only applied to UCLA.
• 25:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So it was like, you either get this- Mm-hmm or, um, i- if I hadn't got it, I mean, then I'd have been back to the drawing board, and it probably would've been more traumatic of seriously, what am I going to do with my life?
• 26:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: What's my career trajectory?
• 26:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Mm-hmm.
• 26:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I, yeah, I, I feel really, um, fortunate to have been given that opportunity.
• 26:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, I tell this to people that are applying to CPEP or thinking about CPEP, and I feel, I feel like we've talked about this on Happy Hour, but those two years were the time of my life.
• 26:38
  Duane Newton: Me too.
• 26:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, I just...
• 26:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You, you're working so hard, absolutely.
• 26:44
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's not all fun.
• 26:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I just loved everything that I was learning.
• 26:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I loved the community that was at around clinical and public health microbiology.
• 26:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I just- Totally sort of, I fell in love with this whole, um, field.
• 27:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was like, I'm so lucky to, to be here.
• 27:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 27:10
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It, it was, was really good.
• 27:12
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 27:13
  Duane Newton: I, I feel the same way.
• 27:14
  Duane Newton: And, and I, I...
• 27:16
  Duane Newton: It, for a lot of different reasons that I felt like that was my f- my favorite time of my life professionally.
• 27:25
  Duane Newton: Uh, and what I was, what I was able to do, um, you know, the people that I learned from, the environment that I was in, it was just, uh, it was amazing.
• 27:37
  Duane Newton: It had a huge impact on me and, and certainly I think, you know, the person that, you know, my program director, Marilyn, was for me i- influent- It, it's why I'm, I feel compelled and put so much time and energy into doing these kinds of things because, you know, it wasn't just about- the science.
• 28:09
  Duane Newton: It was about the people and the connection.
• 28:13
  Duane Newton: And I think the, you know, first and foremost, you know, the patient connection.
• 28:23
  Duane Newton: But, um, I think that she showed me, you know, e- early on that, um We all can contribute to helping everybody be better and achieve, you know?
• 28:45
  Duane Newton: And so it's like I'm not...
• 28:48
  Duane Newton: I, I had the benefit of You know, being lifted by this huge community of people that were built into the program.
• 29:00
  Duane Newton: And, um, and that has had a huge impact on me and, and, you know, I know, I know that not everybody in their fellowship experience had that kind of community or that kind of support.
• 29:17
  Duane Newton: Um, you know, I'm interested in, you know, can...
• 29:21
  Duane Newton: Who, who were the people along the way for you that you can look back...
• 29:26
  Duane Newton: You know, you, you mentioned your, your, um, biology teacher who introduced you to microbiology and, um, Dr.
• 29:37
  Duane Newton: Google, Dr.
• 29:40
  Duane Newton: Google who introduced you to CPEP programs.
• 29:44
  Duane Newton: Um- Yes, thank you Google.
• 29:46
  Duane Newton: Um, you know, uh, who, who are the people, uh, you know, up to this point in your career that you had that you can look at and say,"Oh, wow, you know, that was a really important relationship for me"?
• 30:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I...
• 30:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, I look back on my time at UCLA so fondly.
• 30:08
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I think I cried my heart out on my last day.
• 30:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I...
• 30:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: All the techs in the lab...
• 30:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, I was, I was...
• 30:19
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I guess I started at 27, I finished at 29.
• 30:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: They...
• 30:24
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And they were all a bit older and they all felt like my mom, mom and dad.
• 30:29
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Duane Newton: I similarly, I had, I had extra moms, you know, uh, uh, that
• 30:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: was true.
• 30:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Oh, and I think they knew'cause I was away from home.
• 30:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um- Uh-huh.
• 30:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, Dave, Dave Bruckner was the head of the CPEP program, the UCLA micro director at the time.
• 30:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and he was a...
• 30:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He w- h- his love was parasitology, so I think we kind of bonded over that.
• 30:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 30:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But he was...
• 30:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He's so calm and so measured as a person, and I really appreciated that, and maybe I sort of appreciated it years later, but the things that he taught me.
• 31:08
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and I remember me saying to him when I was leaving the program, I was afraid about what I was gonna do next, and I said,"I look at your job and I think there's no way I can, can do that." I, I just didn't feel ready.
• 31:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And he, he would...
• 31:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He wore so many hats above and beyond just being the clinical micro director, and he said to me,"People gravitate towards the things they like and they're good at, and, you know, you can shape a job into what you want it to be based on your strengths.
• 31:42
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then you, you can make up the rest of it either with-" you know, your colleagues or whatever.
• 31:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but I thought it was really interesting, um, and it was good, good advice, and it's, it's okay to mold a position i- in a way that suits you, I suppose, rather than going,"I'm gonna go do this and I have to be perfect and put all the, all these different facets." And I think for me as well, and, and, and one of the challenges with CPEP is you become this amazingly brilliant microbiologist, but how do you learn to manage people?
• 32:17
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: How do you learn to think about things like budgets and all the administrative stuff that, yes, you learn some of it, but, um, I mean, that's sort of...
• 32:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Some of that comes with experience and time.
• 32:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but I, I just, I...
• 32:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Anyway, I just didn't feel ready, um, to do that.
• 32:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, so, um, to go back to your original question, the other amazing person at UCLA was Janet Hindler.
• 32:44
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and, um, she was so supportive, has been so supportive of me the whole time, and she knew I was interested in public health.
• 32:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So she actually, during my second year of fellowship, I, I was supposed to have two weeks in the public health lab, and I was like,"Not enough, not enough,"'cause, like, I, I want, I want to go into public health after this.
• 33:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so she, um, so she actually arranged so that I could have longer at the public health lab in LA County, and then she sent an email to, um, the state lab in Richmond and said,"Hey, we've got this fellow.
• 33:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: They're interested in public health.
• 33:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Is anybody willing to host her for a couple of weeks?" And Ed Desmond is the one person who replied.
• 33:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so I would say in a way, sort of Ed Desmond is like my original mentor in terms of cementing that idea that I wanted to do public health.
• 33:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And just seeing everything...
• 33:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, LA County was amazing too, um, and learning everything there.
• 34:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but yeah, being at the state lab and seeing all of the things that they did was, was really fascinating.
• 34:09
  Duane Newton: And that's a, um, you know, ultimately I think your pathway into public health and, and kind of leveraging CPEP in that way is relatively unique, um, in- You know, clearly it came from, you know, before you even came over.
• 34:34
  Duane Newton: Um, but there, there're not, there're not many people that have gone in, in, into that, in that direction and really spent their entire careers in public health labs.
• 34:49
  Duane Newton: So, you know, kind of go through what that post-fellowship life has been like and, and, and w- where you worked and the, the places that you've gone.
• 35:02
  Duane Newton: It is, it's really, it's an amazing...
• 35:05
  Duane Newton: You know, just on paper is an amazing, um, roadmap literally of, you know, around the world
• 35:16
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah, and I always say it, uh, the road also doesn't, is, is rarely, um, straight, and that's okay.
• 35:24
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It- you're going to be on this winding road that is your life and career.
• 35:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but I, when I finished my fellowship, I didn't have a job.
• 35:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Well, it was probably a few, few months before finishing, and I didn't have a job.
• 35:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, uh, Sid Feingold, um, who is This, the, the father of anaerobic bacteriology.
• 35:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and he was part of, he was part of the CPEP program in that he, um, he interviewed the CPEP, um, candidates and was part of that group that, um, looked at, um, at the candidates for the program.
• 36:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then he had a very close relationship with the UCLA clinical lab because he had a lab, um, at the Los Angeles VA, uh, Medical Center.
• 36:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so there was a fair amount of lia- liaison between the two labs, and we would collaborate on a couple of projects.
• 36:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so he knew I was coming to the end of the program and offered me a postdoc in his lab.
• 36:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He said,"Look, come do this whilst you're trying to figure out what your next steps are." And actually, your, your former, um, uh, podcaster, Beth Marlowe, also did a short stint in Sid's lab like me.
• 36:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I-
• 36:57
  Duane Newton: You guys didn't overlap, but it was like a-
• 36:59
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: No like
• 37:00
  Duane Newton: a similar experience.
• 37:01
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 37:01
  Duane Newton: Okay.
• 37:01
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 37:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: She, she was at Genprobe by the time I think she was at Genprobe when I started my CPEP fellowship.
• 37:11
  Duane Newton: Right.
• 37:11
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but w- yeah, one thing I was remiss in saying is that network of CPEP alums from UCLA that also, especially the ones that had stayed in the LA area, were so kind and helpful and supportive with all the new CPEP fellows, helping them navigate examinations and stuff like that, talking about careers.
• 37:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I, I also owe a lot of thanks to, to their supportive, um, that supportive network that we had.
• 37:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but yeah, so I went to Sid's lab for two years whilst I was trying to figure out how do I get into public health, and I actually ended up getting a position, so sort of stepping out of the lab, and, uh, with the Association of Public Health Laboratories in their global health program.
• 38:07
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I wasn't in a lab, I was...
• 38:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It was programmatic work, but sort of building lab capacity in various countries around the world, mostly related to HIV diagnostics, um, supported by the PEPFAR funding.
• 38:24
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but I have to tell you something else before, before I get into that.
• 38:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So when, when I left Sid's lab, I wrote it down because, um, uh, otherwise I'd forget.
• 38:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So when I, I, I left Sid's lab and he was- he's like one of my fathers launching me, you know.
• 38:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He, he wrote-- He gave me a book about leading ladies, I think that's what it was titled, and he wrote me a card.
• 38:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I sort of feel like he was telling me off at the same time as wishing me luck.
• 39:00
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But okay, this is what he said:"I've told you several times you are well-equipped to accomplish absolutely anything you aspire to.
• 39:08
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You can be a leader on the national and international scene, and the world needs leaders." Cool, huh?
• 39:17
  Duane Newton: I'm, it's giving me goosebumps
• 39:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So he, he sort of, um, he, he was also very-
• 39:24
  Duane Newton: That's amazing important.
• 39:26
  Duane Newton: Uh, that is really, really amazing that, I mean, you must have felt like you could conquer the world
• 39:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: with- Well, I think I, I think I didn't, and I think that's why he wrote it Yeah I think I was 31 or 32, and I was unsure, and I didn't know what my place was gonna be, and, and, and you can't, you can't imagine yourself 20 years-
• 39:53
  Duane Newton: Yeah
• 39:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: from now being a leader.
• 39:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so, so yeah, but I, I love to look back, look back on that and think about it, yeah.
• 40:05
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um-
• 40:06
  Duane Newton: So ta- more like that's, um- that I don't know, uh, is it imposter syndrome or not?
• 40:21
  Duane Newton: I'm, I'm not really sure, but it, you know, this is like Just a lot of uncertainty.
• 40:28
  Duane Newton: Am I prepared?
• 40:29
  Duane Newton: Am I worthy?
• 40:30
  Duane Newton: Am I this?
• 40:32
  Duane Newton: I'm not enough.
• 40:33
  Duane Newton: I- whatever, you know, whatever that negative talk is.
• 40:39
  Duane Newton: You know, I, I don't...
• 40:41
  Duane Newton: In some ways objectively it's like w- w- why are we, why are we doing this to ourselves?
• 40:46
  Duane Newton: Because you've gotten excellent training, you've put, you know, time and energy in.
• 40:55
  Duane Newton: You, you know, you work hard, you're brilliant and, you know, where do, where do you think that came from?
• 41:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: What, the imposter syndrome?
• 41:07
  Duane Newton: Yeah
• 41:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I don't, I don't know.
• 41:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It, it's de- definitely a thing and I, and I, not to be sexist, but I do think women feel it probably more-
• 41:24
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 41:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: acutely, um,
• 41:27
  Duane Newton: than
• 41:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: men.
• 41:28
  Duane Newton: S- subtle digs, you know, over time accumulate.
• 41:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I think there's also this, um...
• 41:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I don't know if it's our profession or if it's personality, but this need for perfection.
• 41:42
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 41:44
  Duane Newton: That, yeah, I've had, um...
• 41:49
  Duane Newton: That in and of itself has been something that It, recently I've become acutely aware of the negative impact that, that perfectionism has had on me in my life.
• 42:09
  Duane Newton: And, you know, it's not until...
• 42:11
  Duane Newton: You know, I'm gonna be 60 this year, and I'm, and I'm s- just, I'm just figuring this out, you know that- But the, um- You know, I talked to others ab- about exactly that this week, um, that, you know, our whole, our whole lives, you know, scientific lives making mistakes and errors and, um, imperfection is not something that is supported.
• 42:49
  Duane Newton: It's getting things right and having it all line up and it being clear and, and you know what you're doing, and you have all the answers, and you're the expert.
• 43:03
  Duane Newton: And, you know, there, there hasn't been any space allowed for making mistakes and learning and, um, showing any flaws.
• 43:16
  Duane Newton: And I think- That's one of the things in this chapter of my life that I'm, I want to do a better job of creating spaces where, you know, we can, we can learn from those things that don't always work out exactly the way that we want them to, including for myself You know, but I, I think, uh, that behavior was never modeled to me and that, you know, that, you know, there was always high expectations on the outside, and the expectations I put on myself were like- 100% even higher.
• 44:01
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 44:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I also think I always thought those expectations were internal, or at least I wanted to say,"Oh, is this...
• 44:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I've done this thing.
• 44:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Is this now...
• 44:15
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I've, I've got a PhD.
• 44:17
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Is it good enough?
• 44:17
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I've done a postdoc and passed the ABMM.
• 44:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Is it good enough?" And I think I thought a lot of those expectations were external, which maybe a little bit they were, but I had to realize for myself, no, I put a ton of pressure and expectation on myself.
• 44:33
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 44:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, and I think as I, as I get older, I'm just trying to give myself a little bit more grace there-
• 44:47
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm
• 44:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: instead of this constant pressure of sort of have I done enough?
• 44:53
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I- i- is it good enough?
• 44:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so yeah.
• 44:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I think, I think a lot of us struggle with that.
• 44:59
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I,
• 45:01
  Duane Newton: um, I know that a, a lot of mine came from- Um, the people-pleasing aspects of my personality that, you know, were ingrained at a very young age.
• 45:18
  Duane Newton: And so I couldn't make mistakes because I was gonna disappoint other people.
• 45:24
  Duane Newton: I couldn't not meet these expectations because this is what...
• 45:29
  Duane Newton: You know, I was worried about what they were gonna think about me.
• 45:32
  Duane Newton: And so I...
• 45:33
  Duane Newton: And I s- It, it's taken just within the last couple of years that I, that, that connection in my brain has been made, you know, what, where this c- where this came from.
• 45:45
  Duane Newton: And, um, it, it's hard to um, generate that kind of, you know, generate appropriate validation internally in You know, and see your own value and recognize and celebrate that and, and give yourself the credit that you deserve.
• 46:14
  Duane Newton: And it's easy, it's easy to say,"Don't worry about what other people think." Um, but it's not that y- you're ignoring it, but it- that you can, you can recognize all those things that Sid saw in you too- right?
• 46:37
  Duane Newton: That you can see it in yourself.
• 46:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 46:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I suppose at that, at that time I couldn't, but in- Mm-hmm in hindsight I know.
• 46:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I guess that's exactly it.
• 46:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He c- he was trying to encourage me.
• 46:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So that's why I'm saying it was almost like he was telling me off.
• 46:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um,'cause he's like,"I've told you many times," you know?
• 46:59
  Duane Newton: You're not listening to me.
• 47:05
  Duane Newton: So-
• 47:05
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and I don't know if I was a people ple- pleaser, but there's this, this idea of like proving to everyone that- Mm I can do this thing or I can achieve this success.
• 47:17
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, I think, uh, but I don't think giving myself that advice, you know, 30 years ago would maybe necessarily have changed anything.
• 47:27
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I think it, and, you know, we're all getting older.
• 47:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It, it- some of that just, it comes with age- Mm and experience and reflection, which, I mean, I wasn't really into doing that in my 20s and 30s.
• 47:44
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 47:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You're just out there- Yeah you know?
• 47:46
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 47:47
  Duane Newton: Yep.
• 47:49
  Duane Newton: Where did, um...
• 47:51
  Duane Newton: I can imagine that that programmatic position that you got at APHL, um, that there, that your attractiveness as a candidate had a lot to do with the things that you did in your experiences in the field, quote unquote.
• 48:11
  Duane Newton: But, you know, your n- your willingness and ability and knowledge and experience in going to other countries and engaging with people, um, at their level was influential in their, in their decision, and also influential in your decision to kind of pur- pursue that.
• 48:32
  Duane Newton: So, you know, talk a- talk about, you know, kind of- How that has, that seems to be a common thread in, you know, your post-fellowship professional life where, you know, particularly around APHL, but I'm not sure, you know, in other activities.
• 48:52
  Duane Newton: But you've been involved in a, in a lot of these capacity building kinds of endeavors over time that have taken you all over the world.
• 49:01
  Duane Newton: And I'm really curious as to, you know, how, where did that fire inside of you come from and h- you know, how d- how did that How did you come about that?
• 49:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I I
• 49:24
  Duane Newton: think- Did you guys travel when you were a f- y- you know, globally as a family?
• 49:29
  Duane Newton: Did you-
• 49:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Not really.
• 49:31
  Duane Newton: Uh-huh.
• 49:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: No.
• 49:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, we went to France a lot, and we would drive and take the ferry, take our car on the ferry and then drive.
• 49:38
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: God, it probably used to take, like, a day to get there.
• 49:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: That used to be, like, our, our thing.
• 49:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, I went...
• 49:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I think I mentioned earlier, I went to...
• 49:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: My sister was teaching in Tanzania- Mm-hmm for a year, and I went to stay with her for, like, I think I went for six weeks.
• 49:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It was amazing.
• 49:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: She lived in this really remote, um, village outside of Moshi in, in Tanzania.
• 50:04
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I think- Well, I think there's a couple of things.
• 50:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: One is you can recognize that there is a health need and, and why global health is important and access to healthcare is so important.
• 50:19
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I think the other thing I saw was people with very little that had such happiness from the small things in their lives, and it just puts everything into perspective.
• 50:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: We have so many material things, but And I, I obviously, I li- I live in the US and I probably live a materialistic lifestyle, but probably back when I was 17, I was like,"We really don't need these things to make us happy." What makes us happy is family, is connection, is, is joy in the small things.
• 51:01
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, being thankful for the food that we have to eat, being thankful for the roof that we have over our he- heads.
• 51:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and I don't know.
• 51:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I think I, I fell in love with, with Africa in, in that visit.
• 51:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so when I got to do my field work in Cameroon, I went back several times to Cameroon during, um, my PhD, and I equally loved that experience.
• 51:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And obviously with that, with my PhD, we were going out seeing patients, um, collecting samples, doing testing.
• 51:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and it wasn't Some of it was diagnostic, but then we were taking the samples to use for our, our research studies, and yeah, that was also amazing.
• 51:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So, and I'm, I'm sure that APHL when, uh, when they saw I'd had all this experience I also lived in Namibia during my gap year.
• 51:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So end of school to start of my undergraduate degree, I taught at a school in very rural, uh, northern Namibia.
• 52:08
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I think they just knew I think global health isn't for everyone'cause you can't necessarily always put somebody in And sometimes the situations aren't always comfortable.
• 52:19
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Maybe you're hot, maybe the sleeping accommodations aren't ideal, like you don't speak the language.
• 52:27
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, you but you have to be culturally aware and culturally respectful.
• 52:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So it I think being able to navigate all of those things in, in different environments and cultures is, is, uh, a skill that you probably have to, have to learn.
• 52:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I think having had those experiences prior to going to APHL probably helped.
• 52:54
  Duane Newton: And how, um, you, you over time, you know, continued that pathway into, uh, uh, in the public health arena into, um, state health departments in Florida and, and New York and back to Florida again.
• 53:18
  Duane Newton: So can H- how, um- Can you talk about kind of, uh, from an emotional standpoint or, or maybe a professional standpoint, how, you know, those meshed together, you know, that experience a- and in Af- or your experiences in Africa over the years, um, and your interest in public health and kind of how that shaped, um, what you tried to accomplish, you know, as a, as a state public health lab director?
• 54:00
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I think it means you sort of always have this Uh, uh, this global perspective, which I think is really important, and the, the perspective that every person matters, every patient matters, um, no matter where they are, and why, l- we, we talked a bit about it earlier, but why access to care is so important for everybody.
• 54:30
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 54:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, um, I, I mean, I loved the work I did at APHL, but I also realized I wasn't really using my board certifications as they should be.
• 54:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I was like, okay.
• 54:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Took, took me f- six years, but I was like, I finally feel ready to be a lab director, which is why I then made that move to, to Florida.
• 54:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I do I do think I, I learned a great deal from that work at APHL.
• 55:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, learning, one, about public health labs, um, not just in the US, but what do public health labs look like in other countries.
• 55:11
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I also...
• 55:15
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It, it sort of developed some of my administrative skills, too, like with managing programs, budgets, people.
• 55:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It- just interacting with people.
• 55:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: When you're having to go into another country and interact with the Ministry of Health and say the right things It, that's a, a, a good experience.
• 55:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's a good learning experience
• 55:36
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 55:38
  Duane Newton: Do you have any exa- good examples of, uh, maybe having to learn from, uh, learn from mistakes?
• 55:48
  Duane Newton: W- do you have any good anecdotes on-
• 55:51
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah
• 55:52
  Duane Newton: cultural and unawareness?
• 55:54
  Duane Newton: Um, so
• 55:57
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: one of the countries that I, I manage for APHL was Ukraine, and I, I don't, I don't believe I'd been to Eastern Europe before, so, um And very culturally different from the African countries that I had been to, and, and Haiti was one of the other countries I worked in.
• 56:21
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Very different.
• 56:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And we were there to do a training, and we started it, and w- and everyone's, like, stony-faced.
• 56:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, and we're, like, half an hour into the training, and one of the people puts, puts their hand up, and they go,"Why are we doing this?
• 56:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I don't wanna do this.
• 56:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: We've done this before.
• 56:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Nothing happens.
• 56:44
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, this is a waste of our time." Um, so yeah, I mean, you have to, you have to roll with the punches.
• 56:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So we sat down with them and talked to them and go,"What are the things you are interested from learning from us?" And they told us, and I think we went back to our hotel that night and worked for, like, six hours retooling all of our presentations to better meet their needs.
• 57:11
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I think I also realized Um, that getting buy-in from people in One country isn't gonna be the same as getting by in f- it, it, it took a little bit longer.
• 57:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It took sort of different ways of communicating, um, with, uh, the colleagues in Ukraine.
• 57:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, Ukraine is one of my, my favorite places.
• 57:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Am- amazing place and people
• 57:48
  Duane Newton: Uh, I think that that's, um, it's an excellent point, and I've listened to some, uh, podcasts from folks in the business community that talk about, uh, cultural differences in different countries and how interactions, like awareness of these differences can imp- improve interactions and, and make those business relationships better be- you know, how, um, how, uh- You know, the things or approach a group of Germans say is different from the way the group of Italians would approach things and, you know, how they would run their day versus how we would expect to see our day go.
• 58:39
  Duane Newton: You know, it's different.
• 58:40
  Duane Newton: And if you're not getting out, um, and seeing and experiencing that, you know, you have this perception that, you know, this is the-- this-- the way we do things is the only way that things get...
• 58:55
  Duane Newton: are done or approaches that need to be taken and, um, very close-minded.
• 59:00
  Duane Newton: And, and, you know, another similar conversation, you know, when, when Beth and I talked, uh, are growing up in, you know, military families and, you know, ha-having some exposure to other environments and, and people I think is very, um, impactful, especially as a young person.
• 59:26
  Duane Newton: So you were at, um- Your public health lab director, you know, associate director, assistant director in Florida, and then Wadsworth and then back to Florida.
• 59:40
  Duane Newton: You know, that span was, was that a 10-ish years or so,
• 59:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: eight-ish years?
• 59:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was about, I was about 10 years, just shy of 10 years in Florida as the assistant director in Jacksonville.
• 59:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I, and I have to mention that when I, I took the job in Jacksonville, it was under Max Salfinger, and he's a big TB person, mycobacteriology expert.
• 1:00:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so because people always ask me sort of why I love TB and why I ended up doing so much TB, and I was like,"Because Max hired me," and I, and I had to.
• 1:00:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and then
• 1:00:24
  Duane Newton: it's funny because-
• 1:00:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Another
• 1:00:25
  Duane Newton: impactful person in your career, right?
• 1:00:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: 100%, because he...
• 1:00:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: That's when I, when I started in Jacksonville in 2012, and I was...
• 1:00:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: He told me to focus a bit on TB because, um, there was stuff going on in the lab.
• 1:00:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and I ended up loving TB and, and loving the whole community around TB.
• 1:00:51
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: The, the TB clinicians in Florida, the nurses, the whole program, how the lab fit into that, how important those relationships are.
• 1:01:01
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, yeah.
• 1:01:04
  Duane Newton: I, um, one of the people that I am lining up to chat with on this is my, um, my PhD advisor, who remains a, a really good friend of mine.
• 1:01:25
  Duane Newton: And I think folks, you know, I wonder if- Um You know, Sid Feingold or Max Selfinger or my PhD advisor, Bob Kearns, can truly appreciate, or your biology teacher
• 1:01:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: The impact they had
• 1:01:51
  Duane Newton: The, the impact that the, that the time and effort that they put into us And how that totally changes the trajectory of your life because that person you know, took that time, showed that interest, put, you know, put you under their wing.
• 1:02:17
  Duane Newton: And I'm sure that they You know, they had hundreds of students or fellows that they interacted with in their career.
• 1:02:32
  Duane Newton: I mean, maybe even thousands And, you know, this, you're, you know, you're an example of you got into TB because Max was such a presence and person for you, and that's why I got into microbiology and infectious disease and had this clinical s- slant because Bob Kearns did the same thing for me as a, when I was a graduate student, you know?
• 1:03:06
  Duane Newton: And it, it just- I, I think now we're in this position where we can have that kind of impact on people and, you know, the willingness to take the time and share and coach and, you know, just even answer questions sometimes.
• 1:03:29
  Duane Newton: Like, you never know what that's gonna do to people.
• 1:03:33
  Duane Newton: And I've been fortunate to have, um, you know, students or former employees come up to me and say,"You know, I remember this time where you told me this," and that, that really stuck with me, and that was really important.
• 1:03:48
  Duane Newton: And I, you know, honestly don't remember having that conversation, but It means a lot that, um, that it had that kind of impact, and I think, you know, this is, these kinds of conversations, um, are another way to share that information and, and, and connect with people.
• 1:04:15
  Duane Newton: Um, so I, I just found it, just a little sidetrack on what you said about Max, is how it, how I experienced, I experienced that too at a different point in my life.
• 1:04:30
  Duane Newton: So it's really impressive.
• 1:04:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah, and it, um, it is interesting that Ed Desmond, who was at the California State lab at the time, is also a TB lab expert, and he had been that first mentor that had said,"Yes, you're a fellow and you wanna do, you wanna be a public health lab director?
• 1:04:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Great." And so I'm sure Ed was also very happy that I, I ended up, um, really appreciating the field of TB, uh, diagnostics, treatment, all of, all, all of those things.
• 1:05:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and actually, you know, I, I had the honor of presenting Ed and Max with lifetime achievement awards at the recent APHL TB meeting.
• 1:05:26
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so they asked me to present it, and I was like,"I don't know if I can do it,'cause I might just be, like, bawling my eyes out for the- For the whole thing.
• 1:05:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I m- I managed not to, but yeah.
• 1:05:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So it was pretty cool to s- stand next to these two people that had been so instrumental in shaping me into who I am in my career, supporting me, mentoring me.
• 1:05:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, uh, it was interesting what you said about that that takes time, and they were willing to give their time for that.
• 1:06:00
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and, and I, I think it, it ends up being important and in- in, and shows you that it's important to give back.
• 1:06:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So at this point, you know, when people, uh, reach out to me with, for career advice or,"Hey, I'm interested in public health.
• 1:06:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: How do I get into public health?
• 1:06:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Hey, you did CPEP.
• 1:06:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: What did that process look like?" I think it's important to invest in those people, because that's the next generation of clinical and public health leaders.
• 1:06:37
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:39
  Duane Newton: But what it, you know, when you're having those conversations now, and w- what are you telling folks?
• 1:06:47
  Duane Newton: 'Cause I think, you know, that's something that I'm curious to hear your perspectives on.
• 1:06:52
  Duane Newton: And what, what are the things that are exciting and inspiring and also, you know, challenging and troublesome about a career in public health?
• 1:07:09
  Duane Newton: I think, you know, a lot of us understand what those things are in, you know, in a clinical environment, an academic medical center environment, and we're pretty familiar with that, and maybe not as familiar with opportunities and challenges down on the public health side.
• 1:07:25
  Duane Newton: W- what, what are you telling folks that are asking those questions of you?
• 1:07:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's a very rewarding field, and I'm obviously passionate about public health.
• 1:07:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I'm always getting up on my public health lab soapbox whenever I can.
• 1:07:44
  Duane Newton: Well, you're on it now, so- consider, like you have, you have the soapbox
• 1:07:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Step up.
• 1:07:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I mean, and, and The impact of what the public health lab does is so important, so broad.
• 1:08:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And if you, if you have a passion for that, I think it's a very rewarding career.
• 1:08:15
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, you get all of the interesting things, right?
• 1:08:17
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: The emerging infectious diseases, the bioterrorism.
• 1:08:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, you have exciting programs like newborn screening, which, okay, maybe as a microbiologist is a new thing to you.
• 1:08:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But there are all these, um, public health lab programs that I find fascinating.
• 1:08:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I think the, the s- the science of it and, um, obviously the importance of public health, um, are- There's a great
• 1:08:48
  Duane Newton: diversity of i- i- in our space.
• 1:08:51
  Duane Newton: Th- there's a huge amount of diversity of s- science, biology, um, technology that, you know, is e- even, even more than what you would get in a clinical environment.
• 1:09:05
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Y- yes, definitely.
• 1:09:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I mean, just to look at things like next-generation sequencing, every state lab performs next gen sequencing and has all of that technology and expertise.
• 1:09:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so it is, it is an exciting environment where I think maybe people didn't historically it hasn't been thought of that way, um, that we are at cutting edge of technology.
• 1:09:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, but obviously public health comes with challenges.
• 1:09:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, the, the Money in the public health sector is, you know, budgeting obviously is an issue.
• 1:09:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so I know that, um You don't go into public health for the salary.
• 1:10:05
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:10:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: You gotta love it.
• 1:10:07
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, and-
• 1:10:08
  Duane Newton: From a funding standpoint, like, what percentage of, roughly, when you're in Florida, what percentage of your budget came from the state versus through grants and cooperative agreements from, you know, I guess primarily the federal government?
• 1:10:30
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah, CDC for the most part.
• 1:10:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, a handful of others.
• 1:10:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But it, it does fluctuate, and obviously I think that's the other thing that public health challenges, that it, it is swayed by politics and, and also swayed by events, right?
• 1:10:50
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So you have something like COVID and then you have a huge injection of federal funds, um, but then you might go through spells where you don't have anything.
• 1:10:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but for Florida, I think about 35% of the lab's budget came from what we call general revenue, so given by the state.
• 1:11:09
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And the other 65% of the budget was either federal funds or money that we made through, um, billing for tests, through test reimbursement.
• 1:11:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And it, it really varies hugely state to state.
• 1:11:26
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So I went to Wadsworth.
• 1:11:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Wadsworth doesn't bill for anything, but they get a m- much more state, uh, funding.
• 1:11:35
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then you have other states that are expected to be fully self-funded, no state funds.
• 1:11:44
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So it, it really does vary a lot depending on the state, how it's run, the politics of that state government, and obviously politics of the federal government also tends to sort of dictate how things are, how budgets are, uh, what, what are you testing for.
• 1:12:04
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, it's Yeah.
• 1:12:06
  Duane Newton: I, I think, you know, it, there may not be a tremendous amount of awareness or, or complete awareness, but I think just to reinforce that, you know, regardless of what state you're in, a significant portion of that is through competitive funding mechanisms that you're, you're applying for grants.
• 1:12:27
  Duane Newton: You're trying to develop, um, agreements, you know, cooperative agreements with CDC on particular areas of interest for, for you and them, and you're competing, um, you're competing for that funding.
• 1:12:49
  Duane Newton: And that, you know, it, it just, I think it puts a, um- It, the, the light that's shining on that is different to me.
• 1:13:04
  Duane Newton: Or when, when you shine that light like that on it, you realize how difficult it is to be a- to be in that space and, and, you know, you're actually kind of back in the life that you wanted to get You didn't want to be in in the first place from a basic science standpoint.
• 1:13:21
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: That's funny.
• 1:13:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Didn't realize that.
• 1:13:24
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 1:13:24
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:13:24
  Duane Newton: Um- I didn't realize that either until I just, I just s- I just said it, and I'm like,"Oh, what?" You really wouldn't do that.
• 1:13:31
  Duane Newton: Thanks.
• 1:13:31
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:13:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Well, and, and obviously I'm not there now.
• 1:13:34
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, I In talking to clinical lab colleagues, I feel that all labs are being squeezed.
• 1:13:44
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's not just the public health lab.
• 1:13:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: There's always, like, the bottom dollar, right?
• 1:13:49
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  Duane Newton: There's some pressure from some source that, you know, that it's competitive, you know, n- no matter where you are.
• 1:13:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 1:13:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, and so And I think those challenges aren't u- unique to public health, and same with workforce.
• 1:14:06
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yes, maybe the pay is slightly d- better in the private sector, but I think clinical labs are also struggling to hire.
• 1:14:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, so I think our whole, um, clinical and public health microbiology feel- field struggles with these budgetary things and reimbursement for tests if you are charging for them.
• 1:14:27
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, um, can you sort of break even, and how can you, how can you be more efficient?
• 1:14:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I know that, that, that obviously clinical labs don't really have the, for the most part, that clinical, uh, that, um, cooperative agreement, um, opportunity.
• 1:14:47
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, but yeah, I think sometimes we, we are s- struggling with the same problems.
• 1:14:55
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:56
  Duane Newton: Just, um- It's still a circus, just a bunch of different kinds of animals that are in there.
• 1:15:04
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Actually.
• 1:15:06
  Duane Newton: And you alluded to that you're, you're no longer on the public health side, um, and so you've recently moved into industry.
• 1:15:17
  Duane Newton: And, um, I'm interested to hear kind of how that process has been for you, and, um, you- it- has there- what- when you op- how have your eyes been opened i- in different ways, you know, being in that, in that role even though it's only been a, a little while so far, um-
• 1:15:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Six weeks.
• 1:15:42
  Duane Newton: Wow, yeah.
• 1:15:43
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:15:43
  Duane Newton: At the time of the recording it's six weeks, but, um, what's that experience been like for you and, and maybe, you know, what do you ha- or is there anything that you didn't expect or things that you're like,"Wow, that's kinda interesting." Uh, or, you know, what, what's new or unexpected?
• 1:16:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's, so first I'll say changing from being a public, a state public health lab director to going into industry was, um, a definite and decided pivot.
• 1:16:19
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I knew, I knew it would be a pivot.
• 1:16:21
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So, and I also knew I really...
• 1:16:26
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, I have collaborated with industry, like many, several times over the years.
• 1:16:33
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I have wonderful friends and colleagues that work in industry.
• 1:16:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so I already, I, I, but I have no idea what it's actually like to be on the inside, right?
• 1:16:46
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I will absolutely say I need to build my business acumen, because I don't really have a business head.
• 1:16:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I mean, to some extent, I'm used to managing huge budgets, but it's just not the same thing.
• 1:17:01
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, but, uh, one thing I will say is I truly believe that we're all on the same team, and ultimately we want the be- best care for patients.
• 1:17:16
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Whether you're in a clinical lab, public health lab, industry, research, we, we're on the same team.
• 1:17:24
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And everybody that I currently work with is just, they're all so, again, and i- in a way it's the same thing, but passionate about what they do.
• 1:17:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so to be surrounded by that and I, you know, f- for the most pa- part was in public, public health lab as well, um, I just think it's exciting to, to be there and be with people that are excited about the work they're doing, that it's impactful.
• 1:17:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, I mean, what, what did you ask me?
• 1:18:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, what's new?
• 1:18:04
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:18:04
  Duane Newton: Or what, what was new to you, or what was unexpected or, you know, your eyes opened to something that you didn't, you didn't realize?
• 1:18:17
  Duane Newton: I-
• 1:18:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Nothing too drastic yet.
• 1:18:21
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's j- it's sort of just learning a lot of new processes and ways of doing things.
• 1:18:28
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And- Did
• 1:18:29
  Duane Newton: you have a, did you go to microbe?
• 1:18:32
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah, I was just about to say, and I go to microbe and I talk to people and they're like,"Well, when you get back you have to document that you had this interaction." And I was like, okay.
• 1:18:43
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So y- you're just, I'm learning those things and like, okay, how do I document it?
• 1:18:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: What do I say?
• 1:18:49
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, what work did we talk about?
• 1:18:51
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, whereas I'm used to being on the other side.
• 1:18:55
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: So there's this whole place that you can go to, to look, to look up interactions, so I actually got to go in and search myself.
• 1:19:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, you know, it's very interesting to go from being a KOL to you're the one that wants to go talk to the KOL.
• 1:19:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yeah.
• 1:19:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, um, but, but also at the same time, there's so much collegiality in our field.
• 1:19:21
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It, it didn't feel, it didn't feel- Odd to be on the other, other side
• 1:19:30
  Duane Newton: Hmm.
• 1:19:31
  Duane Newton: That's good.
• 1:19:32
  Duane Newton: I definitely, um...
• 1:19:35
  Duane Newton: The first meeting that I went to, I felt odd.
• 1:19:38
  Duane Newton: And I don't, um, I don't know that it was any It wasn't the fault of my employer.
• 1:19:49
  Duane Newton: It was me internally trying to figure out how, how do I wear How do I wear the industry hat and the clinical microbiologist hat at the same time?
• 1:20:03
  Duane Newton: And, um My, I, I was fortunate that my, my boss was at, I think it was a ADLM meeting, um, the, you know, six months after or eight, nine months after I had started, and my boss happened to be at the meeting as well.
• 1:20:24
  Duane Newton: And we had lunch one day, and I, I told him, it was like,"I have...
• 1:20:29
  Duane Newton: I'm having this weird struggle where I'm not sure, like-" Who am I supposed to be here?
• 1:20:37
  Duane Newton: You know, like, am I, am I Bio-Rad?
• 1:20:39
  Duane Newton: Am I Duane, the clinical microbiologist?
• 1:20:42
  Duane Newton: You know, like...
• 1:20:44
  Duane Newton: And b- because I, I was tr- I was trying to figure out how do I represent the company and not Um disconnect or, or dis- disavow my, you know, who I am as a, as a scientist and the relationship that I have with these people, with our community.
• 1:21:09
  Duane Newton: And, you know, to his credit, he said,"Just be y- be who you are.
• 1:21:15
  Duane Newton: You are who you are.
• 1:21:16
  Duane Newton: And, yeah, we wanna know who you talk to, and we want, you know, to track those interactions and, you know, there's...
• 1:21:28
  Duane Newton: We have to show that there's value in you being here.
• 1:21:32
  Duane Newton: And, uh, and at the same time, you know, you're relationship building, and you're connecting, and you're engaging." And, um, so I just, I say it, I ask the question because of the experience that I had, and I was just curious as to, you know, did any of those thoughts come up.
• 1:21:56
  Duane Newton: I, m- I'm not saying that en- everybody should feel that way.
• 1:22:01
  Duane Newton: Uh, just, it's just the way that I...
• 1:22:04
  Duane Newton: I- it was weird.
• 1:22:05
  Duane Newton: I- it was totally unexpected.
• 1:22:07
  Duane Newton: As I'm standing in the middle of the-
• 1:22:10
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, I was...
• 1:22:10
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Sorry, go ahead.
• 1:22:11
  Duane Newton: I was just gonna say, as I'm standing in the middle of this exhibit hall and I'm like, th- this feeling come over me.
• 1:22:16
  Duane Newton: I'm like,"Who the hell am I?" You know?
• 1:22:22
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I, yeah, I, I was apprehensive, so I actually talked to a few people who've m- moved into different industry positions in the last year and said,"How, how did it make you feel?
• 1:22:38
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: What do you think?
• 1:22:39
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, how do you and I interact?
• 1:22:41
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, what if we..." We have been friends working in clinical or public health labs, and now we're in, both in industry, but for different-
• 1:22:50
  Duane Newton: For companies
• 1:22:52
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: companies.
• 1:22:53
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: How do...
• 1:22:54
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Like, do we still get to sit together and talk to each other?
• 1:22:58
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And she was like,"Of course." And I, but I think you get that, you, you get that leeway with medical affairs, right?
• 1:23:05
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And for me, I was just worried, like, what is it c- that I should...
• 1:23:11
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: W- like, what conversation should I not have?
• 1:23:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And then I think it's kind of obvious if there's anything confidential or in, you know.
• 1:23:17
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:18
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:23:18
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, so I think that was my apprehension, was more like what your boss said,"I'm gonna go there and be me, but what should I be mindful of not to do?"
• 1:23:30
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:31
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And really, other than what I said, like I think the obvious, you can j- you can just be yourself because you are- um, you know, a clinical microbiologist professional.
• 1:23:45
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And, um, and yeah.
• 1:23:48
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And so I, and, and I will also say that all of my colleagues and friends that are in the clinical and public health lab space, they're not in industry, have it- you know, all of those people in my network have just been so supportive of me, uh, moving into this role, and that just goes to tell you the importance of our community, the strength of our community
• 1:24:24
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm I think that's, um, those It's, it's wonderful that that's the direction that this has all taken.
• 1:24:43
  Duane Newton: Like that, that not just for our profession and, you know, the opportunities that exist for us and the relationships that we can build and maintain, but I think, um, for you as a person that in- The the path that you've taken, the challenges that you've faced, um even the, the very difficult situations that come from, you know, these frankly, very political and not very, um, helpful perspectives that people take and the impact that it has, not just on, you know, programs, but on people.
• 1:25:45
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, how you've- you've stayed above that Um, I think, you know, your, your strength and your perseverance and, um You're, you may not have felt confident, but you were displaying confidence through it all, um, has been I mean, I hope I never have to go through that'cause I don't know if I-- how I would hold up.
• 1:26:35
  Duane Newton: Um, but it's inspiring and, um, I think, you know, you've come through You've come through it, a- and I really enjoy and appreciate the person that I see.
• 1:26:55
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Thank you.
• 1:26:56
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I'm, I'm sure I had a couple of wobbly moments on happy hour.
• 1:27:01
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But, um, but yeah, I mean, I- I, I do think it, it, you know, life can be challenging and changing careers can be challenging.
• 1:27:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And my kids are young.
• 1:27:14
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I was like,"I've gotta get through this." And, and I love what I do, and I want to continue to do what I love to do for as long as possible and feel like I'm making an impact, feel like, you know, that I, I, I have that tangible aspect of helping people, um, and that there's a patient at the end of the things that we do, and that, that's what keeps me going
• 1:27:53
  Duane Newton: Uh, I'm super thrilled that you've landed in a space where you feel that energy and that spark and that alignment, and, you know, you're surrounded by people that share that vision and that enthusiasm because I think that's, um...
• 1:28:16
  Duane Newton: I know you were living a life where that wasn't the case And, and you're still trying to be the person that you are and do the, the doing the right thing, and, um, that takes a toll.
• 1:28:32
  Duane Newton: And I think, you know, I'm...
• 1:28:34
  Duane Newton: You're brighter and you're, you know, the aura and the energy that you have is, um, is awesome, and I appreciate you sharing, um, sharing all that you've shared.
• 1:28:53
  Duane Newton: I, I'm...
• 1:28:54
  Duane Newton: I didn't get to ask you if you're, you know, if you have a football team in the London, in the London city area that you follow, or you got converted to Newcastle United, or like...
• 1:29:09
  Duane Newton: Don't tell me you're like a Man U fan or something like that.
• 1:29:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: No, no.
• 1:29:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But my mom is from Manchester, so most of my family are Man U fans.
• 1:29:16
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: But I'm, I'm a Gunner.
• 1:29:19
  Duane Newton: You're a Gunner.
• 1:29:19
  Duane Newton: Ooh.
• 1:29:20
  Duane Newton: Gunner.
• 1:29:20
  Duane Newton: Got to raise the trophy.
• 1:29:23
  Duane Newton: Excellent.
• 1:29:24
  Duane Newton: Uh, I-
• 1:29:25
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Um, yeah
• 1:29:26
  Duane Newton: it's really funny'cause I, I didn't s- I started watching, uh, you know, now it's Premier League.
• 1:29:32
  Duane Newton: I, I don't remember what it was called back then, but, um, when I was a fellow 26 years ago, 27 years ago, they would play, replay, um, Premier League games of the week on the, on Fox Sports when I was in New York, and I started watching these games on the weekend, like one game a weekend, and I started really liking it.
• 1:30:01
  Duane Newton: So I, uh, in those days, Michael Owen was on Liverpool, and h- I liked him and kind of followed them around.
• 1:30:10
  Duane Newton: But, yeah.
• 1:30:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Well, it's all right.
• 1:30:12
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: I like Arsenal because of Ian Wright, okay?
• 1:30:15
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Okay.
• 1:30:15
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Ian Wright is just the best.
• 1:30:17
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And also I'm from London, but, um, yeah.
• 1:30:20
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: It's, uh, it's funny.
• 1:30:23
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: My, my kids say they're Man U supporters We're a house divided.
• 1:30:30
  Duane Newton: And I understand, I understand how that goes.
• 1:30:33
  Duane Newton: You cannot, um, th- how kids choose their allegiances is kind of-
• 1:30:40
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Right
• 1:30:41
  Duane Newton: is unknown.
• 1:30:43
  Duane Newton: Marie-Claire, thanks so much for, um, your willingness to be here today and for sharing your story.
• 1:30:51
  Duane Newton: I think it's great.
• 1:30:53
  Duane Newton: I think there's probably two more hours of conversation that we could have about a million different things, and, uh, so we'll schedule that for a future time.
• 1:31:02
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Thank you so much.
• 1:31:03
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: And I just wanted to add that I...
• 1:31:08
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Public health is still in my heart, and I am doing lots.
• 1:31:13
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: All the public health stuff I can do at bioMerieux I'm, I'm still working on, so I s- I still have my soapbox.
• 1:31:22
  Duane Newton: Well, I, I think it's permanently affixed to your feet.
• 1:31:27
  Duane Newton: Mm.
• 1:31:30
  Duane Newton: Thanks for the conversation.
• 1:31:33
  Duane Newton: Look forward to seeing you around.
• 1:31:36
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Yes, me too.
• 1:31:37
  Marie-Claire Rowlinson: Thanks, Duane.
• 1:31:43
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• 1:31:49
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• 1:31:58
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• 1:32:07
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• 1:32:16
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• 1:32:25
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• 1:32:33
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• 1:32:36
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