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Isabel San Sebastián: "Si el feminismo español tuviera una mentalidad menos sectaria, reivindicaría a esta mujer" · Autoras de palabra con Rosa

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I am chained to him and I must honor him and obey him as a
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good woman shall do to her lord in sorrow of losing my kingdom. That
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was his conviction, that of Doña Urraca for obeying his father Alfonso. It
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is this legitimate heiress the Leonese throne that marries Alfonso I of Aragon, the
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reckless and tasted saint sebastian in word authors with welcome pink, well found.
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Thank you very much, for a pleasure we were talking a moment ago that
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you discovered to me a woman who already existed, but that unfortunately, I
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was going to say, almost the requested one or in three walls, between
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two alfonsos. It was blocked, it was tied, between two Alfonso,
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his father, Alfonso the Good, King Good, the reconqueror of Toledo and
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his son, Alfonso the Emperor. And the story erased her. He paired
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her there in the middle and reduced her to practically nothingness and how little was
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written about it, what was said about her was all bad, all lousy.
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You start his story to a scene. I' m going to say
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brutal, brutal by the way the king pretends. I don' t know
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how to finally say it, but well, I' m going to read
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a paragraph. If it' s better, he doesn' t like the
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ladies. Whether I had any doubts. It' s been cleared tonight,
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but I' m not just anyone I can force or scorn. I am
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the lion' s sovereign I swear to You that now we will speak to
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You and to God who will learn to respect me. I think it was
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a brutal abuse in every way. Or pretend good. Alfonso mistreated him,
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this he already denounced in a letter, beat him and, indeed, did
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not feel like for women. In Christian chronicles one speaks of a warrior,
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a warrior monk, and in Muslim chronicles one clearly hints that he was homosexual
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like him. He marries himself to steal the throne, to occupy the throne
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of a lion, and to rule in the two kingdoms, for according to
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the customs of the day, he must consummate. Marriage is not written in
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history. There' s no chronicle that says what happened that night. I
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imagine it based on what we know, on the data we know and on
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the novel I write a scene. Indeed, or describes a harsh scene that
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is somewhat like what I imagine would happen safely, but clearly magpie. She
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wasn' t just an ordinary woman. She wasn' t a woman who
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let herself be mastered. She was a queen and had been educated to be
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queen and defended herself and defended herself all her life from that aggression and from
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that pretense and paid very dearly. But he never bowed. Never and to
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me that gave me an admiration. What the chronicles tell, and I say
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that the chronicles are terrible, they treat her with no affection or respect.
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But what they tell of the battles he gave, of the denunciations he made,
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of the number of allies he sought on both sides in order to defend
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his throne and defend his crown, to me he seduced from the very first
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moment it seemed to me a truly admirable, extraordinary, extraordinary woman who deserved
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to be rescued from this mistreatment of the sea, the treatment of her husband
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and the mistreatment of history. Yeah, a few things you said. She
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was perhaps or was really the first woman who is able to write a letter,
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to denounce that abuse, the first one we know. Of course,
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the first one we know and know that letter and it is transcribed sent to
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his cousin Fernando, in which they tell him you know how many times his
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hands have soiled my face and his feet have hit me, etcetera. In
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other words, it denounces the mistreatment even describes it, as, of course,
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it would not be the first battered woman of either the people or the
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nobility. But that was carried away in silence as a humiliation. The humiliated
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one was the abused one, it was not the abuser and, consequently,
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to have the courage to denounce him, to say so and to reveal himself
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to that, to me it seems very admirable, very admirable and very much
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ahead of his time. Yes, especially because of what you say it was
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one thing that had to be shut up exactly, it took sunbathing until four
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days ago, in historical terms, s or three it does expand by history.
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Well, then, magpie, not magpie, denounces him to see it
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denounced, does not denounce a police station, because it is in the twelfth
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century, but denounced it of how you could denounce those things Then in a
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letter to a relative, etcetera. He put it in writing that it was
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necessary to have courage. That' s it. Besides, you said something
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else. She revealed herself, but revealed herself. I don' t know
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if we' re more as queen talking about this relationship with Alfonso, but
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as a woman. Indeed, what happens is that I understand why, placing
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myself in the context of the 13th century, I understand that the force to
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reveal itself would be given by having been educated to be queen. I wonder
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if a woman, anyone, even a woman of noble origin, educated to
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submit to everything to her husband, as every good woman should do, that
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this is a literal extract of the capitulations that Curracalla and Alfonso signed, would
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have had the courage to do so. A woman whom they would not have
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educated for that, to command, to rule, to reign, would have
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the courage to do so. I do not know, I do not know,
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in any case, of her you and that is worthy to be recognized,
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because it would not be easy even for a queen. Another of the
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things that I said clearly says perhaps they did not breed illegitimate children in their
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lovers who filled with merit without hiding, because I, being a woman,
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cannot make it clear. And here we go back to the same thing that
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she had been raised to be queen. The kings, all the kings who
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had preceded her practically everything, had their state of convenience marriages with a queen
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with whomever she was and then her sentimental life and sex life solved her with
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her lovers, with her concubines, with whom she had children. They loved
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those children and gave them great positions outside in the nobility or in the clergy
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or in their marriages whatever it was and she was just as queen as they
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were, and so she felt. Why wouldn' t I have lovers,
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why wouldn' t I have children with those lovers? She was the Queen
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of Leon and as such she behaved exactly and the story tells us that she
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had at least two lovers that we know the Count of Kandespina and Count González
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de Lara, Don Pedro Gonzalezdrara, and that is that we know best.
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He had one more. But in the end, those two and at least
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two children have passed through history with Don Pedro González de Lara. Well,
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then, it' s inconceivable, it' s admirable. It' s
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the 12th century. We are facing a truly empowered woman in the literal sense
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of the exact word. She had power, exercised that power, and felt
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that power. She was an empowered woman in the early 13th century, who
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has not had any recognition. No, on the contrary, zero, on
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the contrary, history, even recent history? There' s some recent biography
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of him, he' s aseptic absolute. He talks about his diplomas,
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which he signed, about the documents that are preserved. Well, maybe you
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had to write a novel so we could say value these attitudes that history cools.
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Maybe she can' t, but it seems to me she deserved it
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and more than being honored and recognized for what it was for this value than
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you or not. That' s the focus of your book. That'
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s the focus of my book, that part of this woman and that'
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s why she believes Muniadona' s character. There we are going to be
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able to love her and admire her without having to justify them, because she
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is a bit the one present in that first vent of how she is treating
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me exactly on that wedding night that I imagine terrifying according to the character that
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describes the horrible story. Yes, this character is your look, half the
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story and I think you created it for how I' m going to say
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it, to really tell how you like it or how it really is Doña
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Urraca. Not how you like it, but how that exact human part is.
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I have created this character to become an eyewitness to the life of Doña
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Urraca, to act as a special envoy to the life of Doña Urraca.
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Let' s say that' s what' s of interest. A little
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spy, a little good spy. I am the special envoy to her life
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and to share intimacies and to be able beyond the historical character of which we
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know something, not much, but something we know, to recreate the human
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character of flesh and bone, to restore her heart, her feelings, her
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skin, her emotions, everything that history omits or when it speaks of them,
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refers to her as reckless, as a deceiver, as a pusillanime,
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that is, as a woman who is a log, but as a woman
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pretends to exercise power if she is a woman. Well, she is indeed
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an empowered woman and exercises her and I intend to look at her with indulgence,
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even with admiration in many cases and sometimes also with a critical spirit.
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Eh, because ammonia also sometimes criticizes and tries to stop her feet as a
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maiden or a lady could stop her queen' s feet in the 12th century,
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which was very little margin. I really like those first scenes where Maniadona
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is super innocent, super childish, and Mrs Urraca knows perfectly well what she
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wants from her. Then I like how you describe it when you say Maniaduna
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was for Mrs Urraca, a harmless person, powerless or ambitious, an anonymous
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girl, without family, dependent influence, grateful and not completely foolish. In
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other words, it served him for his purposes of espionage, such as to
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render him discreet services without being noticed. She wasn' t completely dumb.
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She wouldn' t have been too foolish, for she might not have served
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him, but what she was was was innocuous. Of course, poor Urraca
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lived her whole life surrounded by enemies. I had them in my house.
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Her husband, his enemy, his half- sister, was his enemy,
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his son. At one point, since his son' s guardians were his
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enemies, his nobles lived to see himself truly put into a nest of vipers,
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and I imagine he would need an ally, someone to be able to
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trust and find him. And he found it. He found it. In
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addition, she was freed from marriage, because that is another important part,
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and book of marrying a widower who could be her grandfather, which was very
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common at the time, that girls, without fortune, could only sell their
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youth and their reproductive capacity, which was basically for what women served, to
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bear children and often die in the effort, because it was the first cause
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of female mortality. You used to talk about Doña Urraca as they considered her
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within what she was a woman in the sible. Back then. There is
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a part of the story too or there is an adjective that focuses on a
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sexually insatiable woman. That' s why I had so many lovers. I
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mean, we go back and turn it around and separate men and women exactly.
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In other words, male sexual appetites are perfectly understandable, perfectly tolerable and
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inevitable given the male nature. But instead, a woman who has her sexual
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desires, her sexual needs, her sexual appetites, is a nymphomaniac or just
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about, is insatiable. That was the mentality of the time, and that
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' s what Urraca faced. I also say I am the Queen of Lion
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and I am going to have my lovers. You see that history or historiography,
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in its machismo, in its absolute misogeny. He considers that Urraca had
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those lovers because he was a little less than a nymphomaniac and then they were
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with her for political interest also to meditate in the Court. Yeah, and
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I understand it' s not, why she couldn' t really love these
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nobles and they loved her. Why couldn' t there be a love story
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there, within which she fulfilled her obligations to the extent that she could obligations,
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her state marriages, etcetera. Why she couldn' t fall in love
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and live a love story with a man who loved her too. No,
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well, I really like that part. I wish, I wish it were.
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I wish, because why isn' t it that we all have the
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right to love at some point in our life, As much as I and
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I understand that I also like that license as a nuño. Nuño is a
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very interesting character because, of course, a moment ago we were talking about
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this relationship that the queen has with this Maiden, but also she doesn'
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t just understand how, being queen, she can be with a lover until
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she falls in love exactly. It' s just that one of the things
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I' ve been trying to create in this novel since I was sixty-
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five years old is a relationship of these beautiful deep- seated sinceres that are
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born among women from time to time, not without any sexual content or anything.
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Hemor of friendship, of love, of authentic affection, of loyalty between
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women and that understanding, which arises from shared emotions, from shared experiences and
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effectively, Muniadone lives immersed in the prejudices of his time. She doesn'
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t understand that a queen can have a lover and can risk even her throne
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to spend a night with her lover, etcetera, etcetera, until she herself
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falls in love. She falls madly in love with a gentleman who looks at
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her with tender eyes for the first time in her life. It' s
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also something that' s happened to all of us. I think I do,
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and then, then you get it. All clear, you understand it
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not through the reasoning of the brain, but through the skin and heart.
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It is feeling the same, feeling the same of empathy in the literal sense.
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Exactly. You speak also when the king and insult killing the poor meadow
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she had forgiven him, would punish him in some way and well, I
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don' t know if it' s historical that, those historicals are historical
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episode. He kills her in front of her, that' s another way
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to denigrate her. Not sure. In the end, she had already made
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a decision. Indeed, it is a way of saying here the king.
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I' m exactly me and you' re my wife and she' s
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the queen. She is not the consort of Alfonso, She is the queen
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of Leon and she has perfect right to forgive, to exercise the right of
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grace over whomever she pleases. And then the king humiliates her. And that
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' s a historical episode, like almost everyone in the novel, which affects
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the relationship between Urraca and Alfonso in Nigra' s and she, well,
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she reacts as she may at that time not be much, not because she
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is weak, but she never submits, never ever. She always reveals herself
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and always seeks the way to overcome herself and she, in the end,
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retains the throne and bequeaths it to her son integrated impact, which he cannot
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say exactly that he is going to Portugal, she defends it now that you
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have said that she continues, that she never stops falling, that she already
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pursues everything you just said. I' m going to go to a very
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important thing. I think it is that we forget the past, the importance
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of the past and the error of wanting to erase that part of the past,
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this little parenthesis that, indeed, because we have a lot to learn,
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is that. That' s why I have so many historical novels dedicated
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to women, because sometimes we think that feminism we invented twenty years ago,
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or at least a hundred years ago and not. No Spain is a nation
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of strong women, because it is that Spain is taxed by the matriarchate astú
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and in pre- Christian and pre- Roman Asturias. The women were very
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powerful, many were clan chiefs, looking for wives, their brothers. It
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was one of the matriarchal societies that existed in our environment, the Celts,
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etcetera. And all this influenced the history of Spain very much, because all
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the repopulation inherent in the reconquest was made with vanquished women from the north,
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navarras, asturianas, Galician vascona women who came humbuds of that culture. And
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that explains Urraca. And that explains to her aunts, to her aunt Urraca
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and to her aunt Elvira, who were also armed to take. And that
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explained, for example, to the Great Queen Elizabeth of Castile. Isabelnos under
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a spaceship, came from a tradition. So when we women now think that
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we have freed ourselves and the younger women believe that it gives me a certain
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anger convinced from the moment that until its advent, the others were at home
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with the broken leg that we were not fools, no. We were foolish
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and submissive and obedient, no longer, but not even urrayed in the 12th
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century. It is true that a Hispanic Christian woman had more power in the
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11th century than in the 19th century, because she lost it. They were
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losing it at the end of the reconquest, at the end of the war,
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the life of borders, let' s say women were being increasingly locked
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in their golden cages, increasingly oppressed and increasingly subjected to that absolute dominion they
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had not known for centuries. But let' s go magpie. Let us
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say that it is the ultimate exponent of that rebellion or of that ability to
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exercise power. From Leona, Palencia, from Palencia, San De Es still
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to Santiago, from Santiago, Oviedo and Oviedo, Aragon, twenty years riding
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because the reign or was made on the throne. As much as we want
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to see that scene over and over again it was also a suffering of one
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' s own body, bearing in mind that a woman varies the male.
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There' s one detail you talked about the gloves, although he was already
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wearing gloves, the reins, of course, riding his hands would rub perhaps
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the least damage. Well, it had to be smashed. She had to
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be torn apart by a woman we know had four children, plus the abortions
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she was sure had more than one, but she gave birth four times when
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she spent the day on horseback, because the queens went on horseback, they
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didn' t go by car, they didn' t go in a hand
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chair or any of that which is a game of throne. They were either
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on horseback or on mules. Very often riding is very tired. Whoever'
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s finished knows that. In the rain, in the cold, in the
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unrelenting sun. Yeah, they wore veils and hats and gloves and stuff,
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but it' d be smashed inside and out. I' m sure he
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' d suffer from terrifying hemorrhoids. He ate as he could sleep in castles,
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in convents, or many times at the base. It was a very
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hard life, because it was an itinerant court. He dressed more than once
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in iron to lead his troops in combat. She had a very hard life
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that she endured and I think that she would have been able to give up
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the throne, i e accept that her husband would rule in her name and
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she would retire to any castle to live peacefully. And he never did,
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never did. She was locked up, she was locked up once, yes,
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but well, she was released, but she was locked up by her
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husband Yes, yes, yes, she was sent to learn and locked up
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That' s historic. Yes, yes, and she was locked up by
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a gloomy castle there, located almost on the border with the Taifa of Zaragoza,
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but her noble nobles and lover did not come, that is, a
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very chivalrous, very beautiful thing, she was released by her lover. Of
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course, and that' s historical, and he saved her and freed her,
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he got her out of there. It' s just that life gave
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magpie without the need to invent anything. Is it already a novel in itself?
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Is it exciting, is it itself a novel? What I have done
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has been, therefore, to create these characters to transform them into my gaze,
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to spin events a little to give them a succession and then, as
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I say, to try, to incarnate the character, not to give it
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skin, to give it heart, to give it feeling, that is,
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to see it as a mother, for example. The only thing the story
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says about her is that you argue with her son. I' m sure
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he' d love that son, especially when he was little, and he
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' d worry about him being raised away from her, like he always did
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back then. But I' m sure he would. He would worry about
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him, want to know if he was okay or more, it would hurt
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to have to face him for the throne. I' m sure the feeling
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of a mother. Let' s go to the Mother Union, son,
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I think that can never be broken. I think it' s impossible not
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to love your child as much as it makes you suffer for so much that
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you do. I think that' s in the genres. Or that'
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s it And for that, I think, you might have to be a
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woman to understand. And since there have been so few historians, women or
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the middle ages, none of the chroniclers are men, all without is and
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ninety- nine percent are clerics. Then it is clear how these chroniclers have
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the ability to understand female emotions, mother' s love, and so on,
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the zero- lead tes, and they are very noticeable in the chronicles.
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Of course, the story could be written from a woman' s point
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of view. Now that you want to change history, we' re going
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to face it from the point of view. That' s what I'
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m going to do for a few years through the spell You regret that I
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' m from Covadonga, only two. I' m always in that with
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woman' s eyes. It is always true what Isabel San Sebastián looks like,
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after having written, because one thing is before the process. And now
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since he rests, he rests, I will say he rests, but with
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a lot of movement. Fortunately, it lies well four editions, a little
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more. What predictions, four editions. If he' s gone out to
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the door, yes, yes, he' s going like a guy,
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doña, urraca, ride finished. My gaze is one of even greater admiration
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than I felt when I, when the character caught me, My initial idea
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was to write about his son, especially about Alfonso, the Emperor. And
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when I started reading and I saw the mother, I opened up with my
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editors, I told them, I mean, I got magpie. This novel
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is going to be just magpie. And they thought it was okay. And
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as I was writing, I was reading, I was studying and I was
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writing and I was growing my admiration. And now that I see it as
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a whole, yes and above all, that I see, for example,
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the impact that this woman left, not on the chronicles, where it was
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null and very negative, but on the mentality of the people. You see
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that recently a bottle of wine came to me from a town in Castile where
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the memory of Urraca remains very alive, because she granted you rights to that
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town, freed you from the dependency of the monastery of Santo Domingo de Silos
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and gave you rights, that is, gave you liberties, privileges. And
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so vivid is the memory of that that happened nine hundred years ago that they
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have made today a wine in memory of that queen. And this happens to
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many villages have written to me for reding a lot of people. You would
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come to present your book to our people, where we love Doña Urraca for
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such and donkey, that is, beyond the curse of official history, Urraca
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left a lot to mark in Castile, in León, in his kingdom,
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in many villages. He left a lot of footprint because he granted you rights,
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because he dictated privileges, because well, because people wanted it? A
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lot of people loved her? So, seen now, from the perspective of
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time, my admiration is much mayayor, much greater than I felt at first,
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the bold, the brave, or the fearless of having been male.
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That' s what it would have been called for sure. But of course,
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by doing the same things, as a woman, you cannot be called
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that recklessly deceiving Kingdom desolation. All those lindennesses said of her better evil of
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man than kindness of woman is written in compostelan history. It' s just
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that we think there' s machismo now. Well, in the 13th century,
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I' m telling you, that' s why this woman' s
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doing a lot of things, but a lot of it. It wasn'
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t the only one, eh, but then, for example, well Berenguela
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was regent of her son or Berengela was also a queen of arms to take
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that came a little bit later, but never girded the crown, She never
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exercised and Joan, who was also queen of full right, managed to annul
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Joan, Joanna between her husband, her father and her son, the poor
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one had worse luck. She was still completely annulled, the one who went
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crazy and locked up there in a house. Then. Urraca was the pioneer,
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the first and let' s say one of the strongest until Isabel'
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s attention. I was telling you a moment ago that I discovered a character
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that I didn' t know had to be, that is, what is
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the character of Doña Urraca. We know him. By the way. I
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' m asking you another question. I don' t know if it'
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s any worse what historians have done to ignore or ignore it altogether, because
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they' ve done both. But I think both things have gone hand in
23:55
hand. In the end, they have succeeded in erasing it, erasing that
23:59
of n history and that it is a form of discrimination that women have historically
24:06
suffered and that today suffers in the Islamic world absolutely erase it. That'
24:11
s what we' re trying to do with women erasing it and not,
24:14
sir, some have left a mark and I' m telling you, the
24:18
magpie print is especially endearing, because there are not the chronicles, but in
24:21
the memory of the people, in the collective memory. Another thing that I
24:22
do not want to forget that we are already finishing, is that she was
24:26
also the first woman who dictated a forum where equality between men and women was
24:30
contemplated. Is that very important? Is that very important? It had never
24:33
been issued a forum specifying that the rights contained in that document were granted to
24:37
men and women alike. This is something that is reflected in the chronicles that
24:45
I do not see, in the novel or drawing the scene, the stupefying
24:51
face of the clergyman who is copying that order. But this is and the
24:57
expression of the queen who tells her what you fail, the ear or the
25:00
understanding brothers, yes, I have said for men and women alike, that
25:04
is, she, for me, was well aware that her condition as a
25:08
woman and that her condition as a woman did not make her inferior to any
25:14
man. It was Reina Vale. I don' t know if she hadn
25:18
' t been a queen and if they hadn' t educated her like they
25:21
educated her, she would have had the same conscience, but the truth is
25:22
that she had it and she defended it. And I' m telling you,
25:26
he dictated that forum that I come out without precedent, that is,
25:30
if magpie had been French or English. I assure you, everyone would know
25:32
her. If Spanish feminism were a little bit, it had a mentality,
25:38
a little more open, let' s say, it was a little more
25:42
I would say, because it was not so closed, exactly, not so
25:48
sectarian, that is, it was not so ideological and had a slightly broader
25:53
conception of the function of feminism. I would demand that this woman who died
25:56
on March 8th for more without a rid in a birth, in a match
26:00
like the vast majority of women. But well and she' s going to
26:04
have a son and her lover too who died was also going to have a
26:07
son of her lover who also died on March 8. You see if it
26:11
' s premonitory that date on Women' s Day. Well, I have
26:14
never heard in any feminist act to claim the first queen and there was not
26:18
in Spain the first woman who planted in the face of mistreatment. I'
26:22
m never preparing myself in Pozzolo for toy day. I' m here for
26:26
Women' s Day this year. In a way, I' m preparing
26:27
a tribute to Urraca, because she deserves it. Really. She is a
26:32
truly extraordinary woman and very little known, because even if she is on the
26:40
throne sitting there because the cover is beautiful, it is clear that she did
26:45
not stay as a consort. She ends something, as we have said for
26:47
twenty years, twenty years, seventeen, sixteen exactly and nothing. Thank you
26:52
for bringing Doña Urraca back to the reckless one. Thanks to You, thank
26:56
you so much for reading it, for sharing this adventure with us and for
27:04
understanding with the heart and skin of Doña Urraca, as happened to me,
27:07
I think so, although there he appears sitting on the throne his reign was
27:11
not exactly a throne. That throne was a foal of torture, I believe,
27:15
that crown was a crown of thorns and still defended them against wind and
27:19
tide. And that is very worthy of admiration, it seems to me,
27:23
well, thank you very much for bringing her truly degent Isabel. A lot
27:26
is very necessary. Thank you, I think it' s necessary. I
27:30
' ve been since the 8th century, since the matriarchy astute that appears in
27:37
my novel As You I' m rescuing history through women' s eyes.
27:40
Yes, the pilgrim is the pilgrimage to Santiago told by a woman, the
27:45
Visigoth, which is the story of a maiden paying tribute to the owner,
27:48
which is the story of a border woman of which there were many. He
27:52
' s not a character that left a mark. Let' s have the
27:56
story with first name and last name. But I' m telling you.
27:57
The story is of a misogy. The medieval history is of a misogyny that
28:03
makes ridiculous the one you could see in Spain of the 20th century, of
28:07
the 19th century. It' s very, very, very misogenous terrible.
28:11
So nothing to go on, you have to be serious fifteen- story apartment.
28:18
Thank you very much.