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ICE Leaves Minnesota, Approval Ratings Crater, Detention Warehouses Expand · This Week On ICE

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the inaugural episode of This Week on Ice.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Matthew Kendrick.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a foreign affairs journalist based in Washington, D.C.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: and with me as always is...
• 0:18
  Kelly Kimball,
• 0:19
  I am also a global affairs journalist and photographer based in
• 0:22
  New York City.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly and I have worked together in the past,
• 0:25
  but this is a new endeavor for us to document the escalation of
• 0:31
  the state's
• 0:31
  immigration apparatus and the violence being unleashed on US
• 0:36
  citizens and residents
• 0:37
  over the last year as the Trump administration attempts to
• 0:42
  fulfill its campaign
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: pledge of an immigration crackdown.
• 0:47
  Every single week we'll be coming to you with the biggest story
• 0:51
  in the headlines
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: about ICE and its actions,
• 0:54
  as well as something you might have missed and our own
• 0:58
  perspectives on what to look
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: for next.
• 1:01
  Matt and I crossed paths when I was managing editor of a
• 1:04
  nonprofit newsroom called Frame Media.
• 1:06
  I had commissioned Matt to write a piece about El Salvador and
• 1:10
  Seacott Prison.
• 1:11
  And from there,
• 1:12
  we realized that we have actually a lot of shared lived
• 1:15
  experience.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Matt lived in Chile and traveled across Latin America as a kid.
• 1:19
  I lived in Chile and traveled across Latin America as a young
• 1:22
  adult and came to
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: realize that we both have a specific set of skills.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: that I think can really rise to meet this moment that we're in.
• 1:29
  The news overwhelm is real when it comes to ICE detentions,
• 1:33
  ICE deportations.
• 1:34
  And so the only way that we can move forward in understanding
• 1:38
  the news is with clarity.
• 1:40
  And it's with clarity that we can ever hope to make good faith
• 1:42
  efforts toward the
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: direction of hope and progress and justice.
• 1:46
  And so by no means are Matt and I trying to make a
• 1:49
  comprehensive look at ICE and
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: the US immigration apparatus.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: But what we can do is give you
• 1:54
  the one to two major stories to focus on and how they're really
• 1:57
  shaping the
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: framework of news coverage and storytelling around ICE.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: We want to offer listeners anchor points.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And without further ado, let's get started.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So Kelly, we had big news Thursday morning.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us what went down and what it means?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Big news coming from Minnesota this week.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: At a press conference,
• 2:22
  border czar Tom Homan announced that there will be a
• 2:25
  significant drawdown of ICE
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: and DHS presence this week and into next week.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: At the beginning of what they had been calling Operation Metro Surge,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: the pronounced ICE presence in Minneapolis,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Minnesota,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: they deployed 3,000 agents to Minneapolis.
• 2:41
  After the killings of Renee Nicole Good and Alex Preddy,
• 2:45
  they drew that down to 2,000 agents.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: They totaled about 4,000 arrests since the beginning of this operation.
• 2:53
  And this announcement of a drawdown really signals a
• 2:56
  significant change in what has
• 2:58
  become a massive flashpoint in the news in terms of not only
• 3:02
  ICE and DHS presence,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: but also massive community resistance and dissent to that presence.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: So Matt, from what you're seeing on this news item right now,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: What does this all signal to you?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: How can we explain this drawdown and why it's happening?
• 3:19
  I think that the Trump administration understands that it has
• 3:22
  lost the battle of
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: public opinion on this one.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: We saw a poll from NPR PBS Marist last week,
• 3:28
  a gold standard pollster that shows that an overwhelming
• 3:32
  majority of Americans,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: 65 percent,
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: feel that ICE has gone too far in its enforcement actions.
• 3:39
  We've seen,
• 3:40
  obviously,
• 3:41
  the killings of Renee Good and Alex Preddy in Minneapolis.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: We have seen the abduction of children.
• 3:48
  We've seen ICE targeting places where people should feel safe,
• 3:51
  like churches and schools.
• 3:54
  as well as extremely disturbing accounts of what it is like to
• 3:59
  be detained in an ICE facility.
• 4:02
  And the results of this poll speak to the level of outrage that
• 4:08
  many Americans are
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: experiencing in response to this.
• 4:12
  As we break down into the sub tabs,
• 4:14
  though,
• 4:15
  there's a huge partisan divide.
• 4:17
  So 93% of Democrats and 71% of independents feel that ICE has
• 4:22
  gone too far.
• 4:23
  Whereas Republicans,
• 4:25
  a plurality of Republicans,
• 4:27
  45% say that ICE's actions are about right.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And another 28% said they have not gone far enough.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we see an overwhelming majority of Democrats,
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: overwhelming majority of independents condemning these actions,
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: feeling that they've gone too far.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: whereas republicans are sticking by president trump and the congressional
• 4:46
  leadership in backing up ice and i also want to hasten to say
• 4:50
  that although ice is
• 4:51
  a shorthand for the immigration apparatus and represents just
• 4:55
  one of multiple
• 4:57
  agencies working on this so there's department of homeland
• 4:59
  security which is ice's
• 5:00
  superseding authority as well as customs and border patrol and
• 5:05
  in addition to that
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: many other departments that have law enforcement abilities
• 5:09
  within the federal government have been pulled in and seconded
• 5:13
  to these actions.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So overall, this is just a very stark picture.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: I used to work in data journalism,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: and you always want to look at the trend,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: not just at one individual poll.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it is becoming more polarizing.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Just last June,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: when ICE actions were really ramping up,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: 54% of Americans said that they had gone too far.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's up by 11 percentage points.
• 5:37
  And similarly,
• 5:37
  among independents,
• 5:38
  the belief that ICE has gone too far is up from 59% to 71%.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that Republican support has fallen from 49% to 45%.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it is having an impact on the margin among Republicans.
• 5:52
  That's just outside the margin of error on this poll,
• 5:54
  which was 2.9 percentage points.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that has extended consequences.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: But first, I'd like to hear your reaction, Kelly.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: What does it make you think of when you hear these numbers?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: the first question I have is a bit tangential,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: but in this environment,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: who remains independent?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing is that when I think about the midterm elections,
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are some major,
• 6:13
  major weather vanes at the grassroots and also from Washington
• 6:17
  that we're going to
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: have to pay attention to.
• 6:18
  My immediate response is this is a pretty historic lead up in
• 6:22
  terms of midterms.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: 51 House members and nine senators and counting.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: had decided not to run for reelection, that's not nothing.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: That is the most retirements from Congress this century.
• 6:33
  And the really big question here is that what will be waiting
• 6:36
  in the lurch?
• 6:37
  Who will take the torch in what has become a very toxic
• 6:41
  partisan atmosphere?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to address both of the points you brought up.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So first,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: as far as independents go,
• 6:47
  the way this works in most polling is based off of someone's
• 6:51
  party registration,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: often self-reported party registration.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: So among independents, you'll have people like myself.
• 6:57
  I've always been a registered independent,
• 6:59
  but I've always voted for Democrats.
• 7:00
  Because in the states that I've lived in,
• 7:02
  for the most part,
• 7:03
  there is an open primary system.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the better heuristic,
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: to use a $10 word,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: the better approximation of someone's political support is
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the picture this paints,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: to your point,
• 7:30
  is an extremely polarized electorate where no one doesn't have
• 7:33
  an opinion on this.
• 7:34
  Less than 1% of people in this poll said they were unsure about
• 7:37
  ICE's actions,
• 7:38
  which is crazy.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: You usually see a much higher level of unsure or don't care.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as far as the electoral consequences, it's really early days yet.
• 7:48
  But in the special elections we've seen this year and the off
• 7:52
  year elections,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Democrats have consistently overperformed,
• 7:55
  flipping in one case a Trump plus 13 district to plus 17 for
• 8:02
  the Democrats in a
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: special election.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 8:05
  I got to give you a big grain of salt because special elections
• 8:08
  are low turnout.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's only the most politically involved people.
• 8:11
  Clearly,
• 8:12
  Democrats are really upset and they're going to show up for
• 8:15
  special elections.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So as far as midterm results, we have a long time to wait.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's going to be a lot more field polling that we need to see.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: But come November,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think that many Democratic strategists,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: at least who I've spoken to here in D.C.,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: are feeling quite good about their chances,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: quite good about their ability to at least take back the House.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: The Senate's a different question.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, the number of people pulling out of politics, 51.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's just so crazy.
• 8:41
  Progressive Democrats feel that they have this opportunity to
• 8:44
  get a strong
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: progressive caucus in.
• 8:46
  But you've also seen people like Abigail Spanberger,
• 8:49
  nobody's idea of a left winger.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: win in Virginia.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: So if Democrats can pull together a coalition that's broad-minded,
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: sending the right candidates to the right districts,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: they have a good chance.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: They struggle with party unity, though.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious your thoughts,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: as to how the Democrats have been reacting to this ICE situation.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I think the narrative and the language has been very sharp.
• 9:09
  You know,
• 9:10
  they have been uncompromising in their narrative against ICE
• 9:14
  and ICE activities.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately,
• 9:16
  when I think about the midterms and the ways that the
• 9:18
  Democratic Party are trying
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: to shape themselves and
• 9:20
  I'm actually thinking about the dissent and the protests
• 9:23
  against ice activities on the ground.
• 9:25
  That will be the major weather vane for me as we go through
• 9:29
  what is a very cold and
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: dreadful winter in the Northeast,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: but also going to be like looking at the summer,
• 9:33
  looking at the news against ice facilities and ice warehouses
• 9:37
  specifically.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: These have become major arenas and epicenter of bipartisan dissent.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little more about that.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: You've been looking into ICE purchasing warehouses across the country.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about what's going on there,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: why they're buying them,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: and what the concern is.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: If disapproval of ICE across the aisle is the number one story,
• 10:00
  the number one and a half story is ICE detention centers and
• 10:04
  the ways in which ICE
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: is brokering contracts and deals to convert
• 10:08
  former warehouses to convert empty land into these detention
• 10:12
  facilities where
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: people have no right to be detained in.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So as we know,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: ICE received a windfall of money from the big,
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: beautiful bill,
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: $85 billion over the next four years.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's a massive amount of money.
• 10:23
  At the same pace that ICE is striking deals with cities to
• 10:26
  create detention
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: facilities,
• 10:27
  protests against these facilities on the ground is completely
• 10:30
  quashing them.
• 10:31
  So the headlines from the last 72 hours alone were seeing
• 10:35
  protests against ICE
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: facilities and ICE contracts in
• 10:38
  Florida,
• 10:39
  Georgia,
• 10:40
  Indiana,
• 10:40
  Michigan,
• 10:41
  New Jersey,
• 10:42
  New York,
• 10:42
  Texas,
• 10:43
  Virginia,
• 10:43
  Utah.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, red and blue states galore in red and blue cities galore.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And these stories are basically falling off of the trees.
• 10:51
  One of the biggest movements of dissent against ice facilities
• 10:54
  was seen in Salt
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Lake City,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Utah a few weeks ago.
• 10:57
  They passed a five-year moratorium on any ice facility being
• 11:01
  built within the city limits.
• 11:03
  So here's the reality that we see right now is that about
• 11:06
  70,000 detainees are
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: within these ICE facilities across 224 locations in the country.
• 11:12
  There have been multiple reports of denied medical care,
• 11:15
  crowded conditions,
• 11:16
  food shortages.
• 11:18
  There has been a 2,400% increase in indefinite detentions
• 11:22
  because they can't get out with bail.
• 11:24
  And also late 2025 numbers recorded the highest ever number of
• 11:27
  deaths in ICE
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: facilities on record.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Folks who have been detained in these facilities
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: have described them verbatim as modern-day concentration camps.
• 11:36
  The shape and behavior of ICE detentions is going to change in
• 11:41
  the future.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: they are now going to have a no-release model,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: so people that are detained in these facilities
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: cannot get out on bond, and they're basically at the mercy of the U.S.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: immigration apparatus,
• 11:52
  which remains a black box in many ways because the legal and
• 11:56
  constitutional access
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: to these facilities have been denied to the press,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: even denied to members of Congress.
• 12:02
  So everything that we're getting and understanding about these
• 12:04
  detention facilities
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: comes from witness testimony.
• 12:07
  So we don't even have the full picture of what these warehouses
• 12:10
  are looking like
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: and feeling like.
• 12:12
  There are some contracts that are agreeing to house as many as
• 12:15
  8,000 detainees
• 12:17
  And for comparison,
• 12:18
  the largest federal prison in the United States houses about
• 12:21
  4,000 inmates.
• 12:22
  So this is an exorbitant amount of space that they're wanting
• 12:26
  to invest in.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's an outrageous number to have in a facility at once,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: let alone the conditions of these facilities,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: which we had also described.
• 12:35
  ProPublica just released a series of stories from the Dilley
• 12:38
  detention facility in Texas.
• 12:41
  And I highly recommend anyone listening to this podcast to go
• 12:43
  ahead and read that
• 12:44
  because they received handwritten letters from the children of
• 12:48
  this facility
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: writing about how much they miss their school,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: they miss their community.
• 12:54
  Some of these children are as young as two years old and they
• 12:57
  are writing with two
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: or three or four year old handwriting.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:02
  talking about how much they just want to go home and that they
• 13:05
  had been there for
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: 30,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: 40,
• 13:09
  50 days with their family and they don't know when they're
• 13:09
  going to leave.
• 13:10
  And so when we think about this idea of midterm elections and
• 13:14
  what Democrats are
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: going to do or not going to do,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: the strategic advantage of saying something against ICE,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: we can't forget that there are real people experiencing real and sincere
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: consequences in an absolute black box that has become the U.S.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: immigration apparatus.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to tag onto that.
• 13:32
  The number of times that ICE has ignored court orders to
• 13:36
  release people who have
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: been found to have been detained unlawfully,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: as well as resisted attempts for oversight,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: like you mentioned,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: from congresspeople,
• 13:44
  but also from judicial authorities who are attempting to
• 13:48
  constrain ICE's illegal
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: and unconstitutional actions,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: is mounting into more and more of a crisis.
• 13:55
  If one branch of government can simply override and ignore the
• 14:02
  mandates and
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: constitutionally protected powers of a co-equal branch,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: the judicial branch,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: we're in a crisis.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it's something to keep our eye on going forward,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: just how the judicial branch,
• 14:15
  which at the lower court level consistently rules against the
• 14:19
  Trump administration,
• 14:20
  but at the Supreme Court level consistently rules for the Trump
• 14:24
  administration.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So not only is there conflict between two branches of government,
• 14:28
  there is a major divide between how lower levels of the
• 14:31
  judicial branch and its
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: supreme authority are ruling on Trump's actions.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: But in the spring, we tend to get a swathe of decisions from the court.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll be watching that closely as well.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: All right,
• 14:45
  we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with
• 14:47
  some reporting Kelly
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: has done down in Mexico and a little bit about what to look for next.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to This Week on Ice.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Matthew Kendrick, and with me is Kelly Kimball.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Kelly,
• 15:09
  you're just back from doing some reporting and documentary
• 15:12
  photography in Mexico,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: and you got a hint of some pretty alarming activity going on there.
• 15:18
  Could you tell us a little bit about what you reported and what
• 15:20
  you heard?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure my heart is still in Mexico,
• 15:24
  especially as it experiences beautiful 70 degree weather and we
• 15:28
  have something like
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: 17 degree weather right now.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: All that aside,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: I did spend the last couple of weeks there and a big bit of my time was
• 15:36
  interviewing Doctors Without Borders representatives at a
• 15:40
  facility in Mexico City.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And something that I'm not seeing quite enough in U.S.
• 15:45
  political coverage of ICE is,
• 15:46
  you know,
• 15:47
  what becomes of detainees when they become deportees?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: The story tends to disappear after they leave the country,
• 15:53
  and I think there isn't quite enough attention as to what
• 15:56
  becomes of people when
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: they are exited from the country.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: So the U.S.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: deports anywhere from 23,000 people per month.
• 16:04
  Migrants are reportedly shackled by the hands and waist during
• 16:08
  these flights and
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: are not told where they are going.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Of the 23,000 people that are deported from the U.S.,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: The vast majority of them are deported to Mexico.
• 16:17
  So the majority of these deportees that end up going to Mexico
• 16:20
  end up in a place
• 16:21
  that has been described to me by Doctors Without Borders
• 16:23
  representatives as the
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: great waiting city.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's a dead end for migrants.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's a city called Tapachula.
• 16:29
  It's in Chiapas state and it's right by the southeast border of
• 16:33
  Mexico and Guatemala.
• 16:35
  When folks end up here,
• 16:37
  first of all,
• 16:38
  the deportees that end up there aren't even from Mexico.
• 16:41
  They could be from El Salvador or Haiti or somewhere in
• 16:44
  sub-Saharan Africa.
• 16:45
  People that are deported may have only spent time in Mexico
• 16:48
  when they're young
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: children or spent all of their lives in the United States.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So being deported to Tapachula
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: after being shackled in an airplane for five hours,
• 16:58
  that is as foreign and disheartening an experience as it would
• 17:01
  be for you and I,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 17:03
  Without papers and proving that you are a permanent resident or
• 17:07
  citizen in
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Tapachula,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: that means that you can't get work in the city.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: The bus infrastructure in this part of the country is pretty scarce.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 17:15
  deportees have also reported jacked up bus rates once people
• 17:18
  perceive them as
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: deportees.
• 17:20
  On top of the fact that Chiapas and Tapachula specifically has
• 17:23
  among the highest
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: levels of violence and insecurity in the country.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's rampant cartel violence and organized crime.
• 17:30
  A recent study by the Mexican government a couple of months ago
• 17:33
  found that nine out
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: of 10 people in Tapachula feel unsafe.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so right now the U.S.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: is setting up deportees to fail.
• 17:41
  on top of the fact that the shuttering of USAID has meant that
• 17:46
  any organization
• 17:46
  that was not funded by USAID is stretched very thin to cover
• 17:50
  the ground left behind
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: by humanitarian and development organizations that were funded by USAID.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So my chat with Doctors Without Borders made abundantly clear,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: and this is what was said to me verbatim,
• 18:04
  these deportees are left to fall into the shadows verbatim is
• 18:10
  what they told me.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's horrible.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to add one piece of context here about Tapachula,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: which is in Chiapas State,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: one of the poorest,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: if not the poorest state in Mexico that has,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: in addition to cartel violence,
• 18:24
  seen an ongoing 30-year-long left-wing rebel movement among the
• 18:29
  indigenous folks
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: there.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the United States is deliberately deporting people to the poorest,
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: one of the most dangerous,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: and the most geographically distant part of Mexico that they can.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Once they're there,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: they have an extremely hard time finding their way,
• 18:45
  especially if they're foreigners and not Mexican at all or grew
• 18:48
  up in the United
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: States.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I also wanted to bring up the issue of caravans.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm remembering correctly,
• 18:54
  Doctors Without Borders spoke to you about some of these
• 18:57
  caravans which attempt to
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: reach safer parts of Mexico or the U.S.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: border.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Could you tell us a little bit about what they said?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think we all remember during the pandemic that there was a very large,
• 19:07
  like several thousands large migrant caravan that was gathering
• 19:11
  a lot of global
• 19:11
  media attention as it was making its way from Mexico toward the
• 19:16
  U.S.-Mexico border.
• 19:17
  And so migrant caravans are a way for folks making an attempt
• 19:22
  to come to the United
• 19:22
  States to garner that media attention so that they can tell
• 19:25
  their side of the story
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: and really emphasize to people why they are coming to the United States,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: why they are leaving their country.
• 19:32
  be it insecurity,
• 19:33
  displacement,
• 19:33
  lack of opportunity,
• 19:35
  or fleeing violence and persecution.
• 19:37
  Migrant caravans are also a way to have strength in numbers in
• 19:40
  what can be very
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: unstable and insecure parts of the country.
• 19:45
  So there were three migrant caravans in rapid succession that
• 19:50
  made attempts to
• 19:51
  walked together from Tapachula to Mexico City and then from
• 19:55
  Mexico City to the
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: U.S.-Mexico border.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Doctors Without Borders representatives told me that all three of them,
• 20:02
  one that began and formed on August 8th and then two others on
• 20:06
  October 1st and
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: October 17th,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: all three of them left Tapachula and never made it to Mexico City.
• 20:13
  And Doctors Without Borders were closely monitoring these
• 20:17
  caravans and they told me
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: that they simply disappeared.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: They dispersed.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that to me is not enough.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know more about what becomes of these caravans,
• 20:27
  especially when they make earnest attempts to gather safety in
• 20:32
  numbers and media
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: attention.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was just kind of a stunning thing for them to tell me.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: One more thing, actually.
• 20:40
  Something else is that I ended up following up on this story
• 20:43
  and a really wonderful
• 20:44
  report from the Women's Refugee Commission reported last August
• 20:47
  that I think is
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: really prescient right now,
• 20:49
  because as more and more deportees leave the United States and
• 20:52
  are landing in
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: places like Tapachula in Mexico,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: the criminal infrastructure that once thrived on northbound migration,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: will very likely shift its focus to deportees.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's what this report effectively argued.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a thing that I'm looking toward in the future,
• 21:07
  is that how is the criminal infrastructure shifting and how are
• 21:10
  deportees going to
• 21:11
  be the community that has the most to lose and is the most
• 21:13
  vulnerable to these
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: shifts in power dynamics?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's fascinating.
• 21:17
  We'll definitely link to that report in the show description
• 21:20
  and on Substack here.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: With all that in mind,
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to switch over to our final segment,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Looking Forward,
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: as to what's going to happen next in this ICE saga.
• 21:31
  And as you're listening to this today on February 13th,
• 21:35
  DHS funding is set to expire.
• 21:38
  You might remember back in January,
• 21:40
  the federal government managed to avoid a complete shutdown.
• 21:43
  by separating out DHS funding from a broader spending package
• 21:49
  that funded the rest
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: of the government.
• 21:50
  But today we're expecting a vote and it seems somewhat likely
• 21:57
  that the DHS funding
• 21:59
  vote will fail because of the amount of outrage constituents
• 22:04
  are expressing to
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: their Congress people.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: As Kelly already mentioned, the
• 22:11
  rapid expansion of funding for DHS has already placed them in a
• 22:15
  position where
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: their resources exceed anything imaginable in previous administrations.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: But should they fail to this vote,
• 22:24
  it would affect a wide variety of agencies that fall under
• 22:27
  Department of Homeland
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Security but are not
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Border Patrol and ICE.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So the Travel Security Administration,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: the guys that check your bag at the airport,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: the Federal Emergency Management Administration,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: the people who come in if a hurricane hits your town,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: the U.S.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Coast Guard,
• 22:42
  who are the ones on the front line doing a lot of actual drug
• 22:45
  fighting and actual
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: trafficking fighting.
• 22:48
  the Secret Service protecting the president and other important
• 22:51
  politicians in this
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: country,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: would all suffer greatly.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: due to the funding that Kelly already mentioned,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Border Patrol and ICE would have a minimal impact.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 23:03
  We're in the situation where the politics seem to be pushing
• 23:08
  Congress away from funding DHS.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And net-net on a political basis only,
• 23:15
  it's probably the right move for especially Democrats to vote
• 23:20
  against this funding.
• 23:21
  But doing so will also impact important federal agencies that
• 23:25
  have nothing to do
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: with the deportation program.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we're looking for how this vote goes.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking for what the effects are over the next week.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll come back to you on that.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also looking at the Milan Cortina Winter Olympics.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I just watched men's figure skating just a couple of days ago.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Phenomenal, but unrelated.
• 23:43
  I want to know what has become of these threats of DHS presence
• 23:48
  in Milan Cortina and also what
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Italy and the EU have to say in response to that ice presence,
• 23:55
  what the territoriality looks like in terms of jurisdiction and
• 23:59
  law enforcement of
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: this.
• 24:00
  I would love to know what the temperature will be like by the
• 24:04
  end stage of the Olympics.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm looking at right now.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a great point.
• 24:09
  I've also been watching the Winter Olympics because I'm an
• 24:11
  Austrian citizen and I'm
• 24:12
  pretty sure I will lose my passport if I don't support them in
• 24:15
  the skiing.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: Although the Swiss bastards have been beating us in downhills.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: We might have to invade Switzerland here.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: But no, I am also very curious about the impact of DHS.
• 24:25
  And I'm curious also about the impact of this immigration
• 24:28
  crackdown in the United
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: States on European politics.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like Austria, very conservative country in a European context.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And immigration has been...
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: a huge issue there for a long time,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: since at least the 1970s,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: when a huge wave of Turkish immigrants came into the country,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: and more recently,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: folks from Syria fleeing war,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: folks from Afghanistan.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it has led to not just in Austria,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: but in Germany,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: in Poland,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: in France,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: in the Netherlands,
• 24:55
  a right-wing backlash that's often really founded on
• 24:59
  anti-immigrant sentiment.
• 25:00
  And I wonder if the level of barbarity shown in the US
• 25:06
  anti-immigrant crackdown
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: will soften attitudes in Europe,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: will maybe force the right wing to back off of some of their stronger
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: anti-immigrant claims.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Italy is a great example of this.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have Giorgia Meloni,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: the prime minister of Italy,
• 25:17
  who ran on a stringent anti-immigrant platform and has made big
• 25:22
  strides to try to
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: tackle what she sees as one of Italy's major problems,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: often by
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: outsourcing enforcement immigration to partners in Africa,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: preventing boats from crossing the Mediterranean to Italy,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: but also an attempt to build a deportation center in Albania,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: one of the poorest countries in Europe,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: one of the most violent countries in Europe.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where Italian immigrants might end up.
• 25:46
  And I wonder if her tune will change given the backlash that
• 25:49
  we've seen against
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Vice President J.D.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Vance's presence at the Milan-Cortina Games,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: as well as the just undeniable violence here in the United States.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:59
  And yeah,
• 26:00
  I mean,
• 26:00
  having known you for several years,
• 26:01
  you are full of surprises.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Fully did not know you were an Austrian citizen.
• 26:05
  So we're going to learn more about each other,
• 26:07
  I'm sure,
• 26:08
  through the course of this podcast.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have to see.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have to see.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have to see.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we're both full of surprises.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll keep going there.
• 26:14
  Thank you everyone for listening to this inaugural episode of
• 26:17
  this week on ice.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Next week,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: we will be covering the stories we just mentioned,
• 26:21
  as well as having a look at where the next Minnesota might be
• 26:25
  the next phase of ice
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: and DHS crackdown.
• 26:29
  The Trump administration is not giving up on its efforts to
• 26:33
  crack down on migrants
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: and your community could be the next one.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll be having a look at where the next flashpoint might be.
• 26:42
  And on top of that,
• 26:44
  sometime in the next few weeks,
• 26:45
  we will also be featuring an interview
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: with the Cato Institute's David Byer.
• 26:51
  He is just out with a study documenting the economic effects of
• 26:55
  migration,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: both legal and illegal,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: into the United States.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: And his findings run very contrary to right-wing narratives on the issue.
• 27:03
  So if you have anything else to say to us,
• 27:04
  please do get in touch at thisweekonice at gmail.com.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: We will be very glad to field your questions.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And until then,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: everyone stay safe,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: look out for your neighbors,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: and we'll talk to you next week.
• 27:21
  Bye.