Latest / Radiant Voices / The Science of Voice & Safety: How to Speak with Natural Authority
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- speaker-0: If you want to make people feel safer, start with the tone of your voice. It's an often overlooked signal coming out of and landing on somebody else. And we can, with our experience and our knowledge and understanding of it, we can then shift out of those protective states into connected, more curious places and wonderment. ⁓ I wonder why. I wonder why she's speaking that way. speaker-1: Hello Radiant Beings. I am really excited to have Maddie Shisco with me today. She is an actor and voice coach. She's got a wonderful business called My Voice Coach, where she works with business leaders and politicians and humans in general, working with their voices to find authenticity, clarity, ⁓ confidence, flow, and much more. I am so happy to have you here. We had such a wonderful pre-meeting. We've got lots to chat about and lots in common. Let's jump in. We spoke in our pre-meet about the kind of liberation of a voice or how a voice really becomes itself. First of all, what happens to voices that they aren't liberated and how do we take them on a journey towards becoming themselves? speaker-0: Such a beautiful question, Jeremy, and thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you today. I'm excited to hear your thoughts on everything that you bring to me as well. So the liberation, it's so out there on social media. You know, you see these images of people standing in the forests and they're yelling at the trees or they're running into the water with their arms up. And yes, this is voice liberation. Absolutely. Liberation is any action that takes us from being dormant or silent or incapable of moving to having some kind of movement and exploration that brings whatever is going on in here out there. So for me, ⁓ liberation can be so small. It can be such a gentle act. And especially with the voice when we might see that there are places that have been locked away for whatever reason, many reasons, protection, fitting in, survival, culture, and ⁓ moving it to a place where it can be heard by self and by others can sometimes just be this tiny liberating moment. And I think when people see that liberation has to be this enormous thing, it can even shut us down even more. And so the process of revealing and feeling safe enough to reveal our voices becomes something that adds more fear. speaker-1: I love that. And I think the way you express it is really beautiful that it's rather a small process or it's a process of safety and revealing, not exposing or throwing oneself onto big stages that are enormously triggering and too much and overwhelming. Because many of the people certainly that I work with developed a pattern of being in fear around being highly visible and being audible, being seen and heard. And that will often historically have been from unsafe family environments or community environments or schools bullying, etc. And so there's a pattern inside us that might be, I don't feel safe to fully express myself. You speak about voice as a pathway to ⁓ safety. and belonging. Can you speak a little bit about what that might look like? speaker-0: Yeah, when we feel safe enough, I think, you know, I like to call it tickety boo. Other scientists call it homeostasis when we feel that everything is running in the right direction. And, you know, it's that felt sense of safety because safety really is a feeling you really know when you feel safe or when you don't. So that sense of if I feel safe enough, if my body, my breath, being present, all aligns and I feel held enough, then my voice can emerge. And we just know from our own experiences, personal experiences of, as you say, know, family, the culture, psychological, physiological. I mean, the voice is cultural, physiological, psychological. is, and it's so steeped in our pre-meet we were talking about. belief systems and cultures and experiences. So it can be really challenging for people to feel safe enough to have their voices heard. And for some people, it can be on stage. That's the only place that I feel safe enough to let my voice be heard. We know lots of stories ⁓ of people in the arts in particular, where that is where they feel the most safe. And for others, it's not that. For others, it's just being with that trusted other or having a core group of people or a pet or being in nature or your spiritual beliefs. mean, if we whatever we need to feel safe enough for our voices to be heard, we we encourage more of that. And so we move out of what is wrong with me into more of what do I need right now in order to have my voice be heard? And that's where the work starts. speaker-1: Yeah, that's really, really beautiful. Like, what do I need right now? I think folks, when they're working with their voices and seeing other people express themselves with volume and courage and sass and panache, it's really easy to get into self-shaming and why am I like this? And why am I not like them? What's wrong with me? And... As you said, people have got a real range of experiences of what it's like to use their voices. Some folks are completely comfortable, let's just say speaking at a corporate meeting, as long as they're in charge of what they're saying and they know their material, but get them to have to riff and speak off the cuff, that's very frightening. Others are okay in big environments and groups, but it's frightening to be one-on-one. It's too much. It's hard to talk about soft. things. Other people flip it completely and it's their delicious space to be one on one, but put them in front of a crowd and that's a ⁓ terror response will come through. I'm curious when you're working with leaders and business folk and especially government, what do you lead them towards when they're looking at speaking? Like what is the North Star? for elite, let's talk politics for a moment. What is the North Star? Let's go there. What is the North Star for a politician when they want to stand up and persuade and have authority, but hopefully they'll have a desire to be authentic? How do you frame it and how do you work with that population? speaker-0: It is such a challenging and exciting and intoxicating world to be in because there are so many levels at play. always talking about be your most authentic self. Where's your, where's your genuineness? Where, where, ⁓ can I just be myself and be accepted? Because that's what we all strive to be, you know, connected, sense of safety and belonging, but they have this additional pressure. And if we want to. Talk about it as a threat. Yeah, it's really real because it means it's the difference between being able to be a policymaker and move towards changing the world to make things better for people to being cancelled. A cancel culture of the thing that you said or the way that you said it or a hot mic. So the line is so narrow in and it's really ⁓ It's an ever present threat for politicians and so I do a lot of nervous system regulation work nervous nervous system agility like vocal agility because they have to be everything. They have to tell you that it's going to be okay they have to rally you to fight they have to argue on the floor they have to ⁓ as you saying riff of questions in scrums. in potentially precarious situations. So you can imagine if there's a dysregulated nervous system, the responses are more reactive. So we work a lot on ⁓ knowledge of the nervous system and response versus reaction and sympathetic fight flight versus being in connection. with other people and what that feels like and the toggling between all of the nervous system states that we go through. ⁓ Ultimately, there's got to be clarity and there's got to be drilling down to the core message of what am I really trying to say here? And, but also see, it's so complicated because, I also want to show up human. I don't want to be a robot and I just don't want to be talking about the messaging that my party requires me to message. So it's and then everything is filmed. So it's really, really challenging for people and you will see burnout very, quickly and you will see them. You've got to have the thickest skin. There is no way, hell or high water, that I would go into politics. And some of them shake their head and go, ⁓ my gosh. But there is a drive and a passion when their desire to make the world a better place. overrides all of that and they're willing to take the risk, then ⁓ that's just what they have to do. there's so much call to action, there's so much fight that we really, need, but there's also the recovery. So if we've got politicians out there fighting and fighting and fighting, and then if they're, especially if they're in ⁓ election mode, And they're on the road, the vocal fatigue that sets in. this, I'm getting on and on because there's so many different little nuances in training or supporting the politician in their work and time. You never get enough time with them because their schedules are always changing. Something is always happening and they're on a plane. So it can be really challenging to keep up the consistency because as you know, It is with the consistency of the exercises that the change really comes. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting hearing that it does fill me with a bit more empathy for what it's like to be a politician, the balancing act and an authentic. This is a kind of good politician, or at least one that is trying to be a force of good, which I hope most of them are. But this balancing act between being human, being accurate, being present, being able to articulate stuff in the moment, I mean, and then dealing with the blowback. It does sound absolutely terrifying and I can't imagine anything. speaker-0: She summarized it so well. speaker-1: Yeah, it's interesting. so, you know, we've spoken and in both of our work, we worked so much with nervous system regulation and using the voice as a force of nervous system regulation. Let's play a little bit. Well, I'm curious. First of all, did you do any preparation with your voice before our session? And have you done anything during this session to regulate yourself or to work with your nervous system? speaker-0: What a lovely question. Yet I do the straw exercise. I do my straw exercise. speaker-1: Do want to reach for your straw? ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, sure. Hold on, is that still? Okay, so this ⁓ semi-occluded vocal tract exercise. speaker-1: Yeah, great. SRVTs for the win. speaker-0: Yeah, so I do this. It's the best. Do you do this? speaker-1: I don't do much straw actually, I just do a lot of other SOVTs. speaker-0: Okay. I just find that they're, just so, so wonderful. So before a podcast, I will do that. ⁓ did you want me to go through it? speaker-1: Yeah, just once you show. Yeah, let people see. speaker-0: So I start with just humming and making sure that I'm really breathing from the thoracic diaphragm and I do a little body scan and just you know sense for tension and see if I can invite that to release first of all and then I make sure the most important thing is to make sure that your breath is coming through the straw when you hum. So that's good. So I'll just hum on one note for 30 seconds and then I'll do a vocal glide. First of all, you'd like to take a drag of your cigarette. ⁓ speaker-1: Highly recommended for public speaking, ⁓ Smoking is brilliant. speaker-0: Just have to do that, sorry. And then I'll do a vocal glide. Really gently, because I'm just starting to warm up, nothing pushed. And then I will do, I call it kazoo. Brings in a little bit of fun and fired up in there, a little bit of mobilised energy. And that's for 30 seconds. And then I will hum my national anthem. I'm a dual citizen, so I get to choose Australia or Canada. Yeah. speaker-1: I'm a citizen too, Canada and South Africa. okay, so that's your vocal warmup. ⁓ I'll share it for me. Is there anything else that you want to share? speaker-0: So you get to choose. ⁓ I just I start singing and just humming around the house as I'm getting ready. That would be all and water hydrating I'd love to know what you do speaker-1: Yeah, so I also hum and I love humming and the science behind humming we both know is extraordinary for regulating the nervous system and heart rate variability and all the things. And I love your straw and water with your glide. I dubbed the term, I call that baby dolphin when I'm working with folk to imagine a baby dolphin is swimming up and down the waves. I've actually been fiddling around with Claude Code building an arcade game which involves little crustaceans going down the screen and then you have to, ⁓ your note of your dolphin to eat the crustacean. It's in demo mode at the moment. anyway, so very similar stuff. So love the glide or baby dolphin. I also do scales. But one thing that I have been doing while we're talking is I have been, so I crossed my hands on my lap. and I just gently, slowly tap on my legs and I bring awareness down into my lower body to ground and regulate. And this is something I recommend and I love, especially on Zoom, because you can get away with no one seeing. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: That is so great. You know, having that awareness. ⁓ that's so simple and so beautiful, Jeremy. speaker-1: Thank you. Great. I want to talk about your Polyvagal Institute course Aligning Our Voice with Your Intentions. Yeah, so let's talk about aligning your voice with your intentions. We're going to have a link to Maddie's website plus this course in the show notes. But tell us about the course and what is it to align your voice with your intentions? speaker-0: Yeah, it's one of the first prompt I invite people to talk about in, I call them brave out rooms, breakout rooms, because I think it's can be really, you have to be really brave to get into a room with a bunch of strangers and then start to reveal things about yourself. So it's one of the first prompts that I talk about because I think it means different things to different people. And I will ask you what you feel it means for you. Aligning our voice with our intention. For me, it's about everything coming together in alignment where I feel held, where I feel supported, where I feel clear, where I might feel playful, where I could feel ⁓ calm and soothed. It's about having that moment of everything coming together, mind, body, spirit, voice, breath. to align to speak my truth or to be present for what is coming towards me to give and to receive. So that's what alignment really means for me. And when we align with our intention and our value systems and who we like, for example, who do I want to be in my response? If something goes sideways, how does my human want to show up in that moment? And what are some tools that I can use to get me there? So it's about the tools. So the course is about having the tools. It's about having the science behind the breath, voice, heart connection. And a lot of, yeah, so a lot of information about all of that. But at the heart of the course is really the exercises that we do in community and. the repetitive exercises that people can do to create that neural platform of creating the conditions of safety in your own body. speaker-1: There's so much in there, know, there are a thousand things I'd love to talk about in that and really just dip into for folks listening to this. So one of the words you used is foundation and you've said it a few times and I think I know what you mean and I think it's somewhere adjacent to safety, the sense that you have this rock solid foundation when you are putting yourself out, when you are engaging with the world, but I'd love you to describe in your words what is that foundation and how do we access it. speaker-0: stability. When I and I think I interchange stability with safety a lot as well. Because for some people the word safety is quite triggering or forever unattainable or forever searching for. So what is something stable for me to be able to rest my voice on? So and I also think that there's not just one route It's not one spot that is foundational, but it's more of a landscape. And we get to choose where am I standing at this moment? And knowing that we have the freedom to move to another spot to find some stability or an anchor, to use ⁓ how Deb Dana describes anchors a lot in her work. And then the agency to choose a path, but to know that it can change. a foundation is more of a foundation like root system in the trees. What is holding me so that I feel stable enough to rest my voice on? Yeah. When we do talk about aligning your voice with your intention, what is your response to that? How does that rest with you? speaker-1: It's. That's so good. No, I love it. I'll perhaps speak about both at the same time, both the foundation and the alignment. And I'll speak about it from the sense of a lot of the folk who will come in to work with me will have some level of an anxiety response in relation to being under the bright lights, whatever that might mean for them. That might just be in a meeting at work, that might be presenting to a C-suite, that might be doing public speaking and so on. And there's a system that switches on in there when they're in those environments. Heart rate goes up, they might start sweating, they might be shaking, or it just might be, I'm speaking too fast and my voice is shaking a little bit and I look scared. You know, could be anywhere on a spectrum. But there's a system that switches on and that often includes overthinking, so they might be a little bit more in their heads and kind of up and out of the fullness of themselves. They're in a kind of, let's call it a reactive system that is frequently also hypervigilant. and scanning the audience for, you know, perhaps people are judging me and simultaneously fearing what they feel in their body. In other words, I feel scared and that scares me. So they have fear of fear. So there's a whole lot of, I'm gonna say difficult to navigate stuff going on. And it's hard to be your full, clear, authentic self. when you are in this part of yourself. Well, let's just say you're authentically scared, but it's not necessarily what you want to communicate in the moment. What we're talking about is this ability to navigate these states and then introduce stability, safety, like you said. And there's kind of a grounding or a foundation that then emerges that you can handle activation, this activation. There's a sense of, ⁓ something's, I think you used the phrase, something's holding me. These are beautiful phrases. feels, know, so I've got this nervous system activation, which of course happens, especially the bigger the stages you get onto, the more you're gonna be activated, but there's this foundation there. And this alignment that you speak of is the ability to be ourselves. I would kind of talk about a through line where we have access to our mental capacity and clarity. We have access to our heart. So we're kind of aligned to ourselves. We have access to our bodies and our emotions. And we are grounded in ourselves. So kind of, I'm going to say, as close to as possible some sense of being at home or at least supported by ourselves. And there's kind of an alignment through us. And it's an imperfect, beautiful thing. But we open our mouths. And what happens next is words flow out. and we don't have to necessarily control it or be watching it, you know, with a kind of a judge and critic above. We just let this thing, let this flow happen from a state of chaotic, beautiful, sweet, supported alignment. Okay, how did that? speaker-0: Wow. Drop mic. ⁓ my gosh. That was so beautiful. Yay. Well, I, whoa. That just deeply resonated with me and so many things. I have, I wrote down some things because I sometimes forget in the moment but when you said out of the fullness of yourself, out of the fullness of yourself. ⁓ to be in the fullness of myself is to be present, isn't it? Really? That's so beautiful. And in the fear of the fear and all the fearful things, remembering that this is what our nervous system was designed to do to keep us safe. And it was it's actually just doing the job that it's supposed to do. ⁓ thank you, body. Thank you, body. And now from there, we can go, ⁓ let's bring this in and let's Take that away or put it over here for a while. Wow. That was just such a beautiful. speaker-1: I want to ask you, you know, I think from within that, I just, you know, we're still talking, I think about alignment and aligning your voice with your intentions. When we align our voice with our intentions, how does our voice affect others? speaker-0: It is, and you'll probably agree with me because this is your life's work also, is the impact that our voice has is such a potent influencer of another person's nervous system. If you want to make people feel safer, start with the tone of your voice. It is, it's an often overlooked signal coming out of and landing on somebody else. And we can, with our experience and our knowledge and understanding of it, we can then shift out of those protective states into connected, more curious places and wonderment. ⁓ I wonder why, I wonder why she's speaking that way. Or I wonder what's going on that as the broadcaster of our physiological state, her voice is emerging in this way or their voice or his voice. So it, I'm always more curious now and it takes away the feeling of what have I done? ⁓ what have I done to, ⁓ I wonder what's going on with you. I forgot the question that you asked me. speaker-1: That was beautiful. It was beautiful. But I think you were totally answering it. You we were talking about how voice affects others and you were talking about how vocal tone is so powerful and we can create connection and safety and engagement through the tone of our voice. And we profoundly affect others. by or with our state of being. And I sometimes say to, well, in fact, I always say to my clients, explore the idea of withdrawing so much attention on everyone else in a room in a meeting. You it's like watching Wimbledon as people speak and bring awareness inside and work. I say 30 % out there, 70 % in here and regulate and bring yourself home and soothe. and just nourish this place and then see what happens as you speak from this deeply nourished place. Let's try this. How do you teach authority, presence, like you've said, to leaders? How do you teach them to be persuasive in this deeply connected kind of way? Practically, like what happens? speaker-0: Yeah, I just want to touch on what you something that you said before we go there and remind me where I'm going. speaker-1: It's going out, it's going out. speaker-0: ⁓ See, they don't have the input, they can't do what I'm doing going, hang on a minute, could you? They have to be so switched on. It's just definitely not my age and stage anymore. you can't control what's out. What you said the 70 30 is you can't control what's out there, but we can support what's in here. And I think that's where our work starts is freeing. speaker-1: Thank you for question. speaker-0: the breath in the body is the first place that I go to practically. I have a look at what is going on with their alignment and their system, their structure, like how are they holding their hips? Are they locking their knees? Is their neck jutting forward? you know, I might, you know, hopefully the work is in person most of the time. In fact, with politicians, it mainly is no recording, but it's, ⁓ That's where I first start because you need to free the breath in the container for the voice to emerge. Feeling comfortable with the uncomfortable always. What do I do with my hands? Right? What do I do with my hands? Well, where are we? What is the context? What is the situation? What is not going to give it a cue of too much casualness? I'm not. I don't dislike a hand in the pocket for a guy. You know, I'm OK with that. It depends where they are. Getting comfortable in their bodies first, first, first, and maybe making some of those adjustments that they were completely unaware of. Getting a deep breath. Finding the breath low in the lungs and feeling that freedom in the hips and in the pelvis and unlocking the knees. I do a beautiful Betsy Polletin exercise of receiving support all the way up through the body. I currently work with a politician who is well over six feet and the compensation that has to happen. Not just, but from a hearing perspective, like if he's walking along with someone and they're five foot three, he has to be in here to actually hear. like, didn't even think of that. But for some politicians with that height and the podiums that they're at and the microphones, having them actually use their full height is quite foreign to them. It's like, so I can be up here. And I have been in the room where that adjustment has been made and we have wept. because it is ⁓ someone who knows what to do. gives off this story of we're in the best hands. So I work a lot with the body and the breath first. The connection to people is especially when, so in a scrum situation, if you're trying to be provoked by an interviewer, for example, You're not actually you're not actually answering the interviewer. You're looking through the camera and you're speaking to you and me at home. And that can actually soften the edges of the fear of I know what you're trying to do to me, reporter. But that's their job, right? That's their job to get to the truth and to drill down to the key message, because we all know that there can be inflated messaging and get to the point. But if I am. working through the reporter and through the camera to the person speaking at home. It can actually start to soften the edges inside. Looking at emphasis, intention, your why has to underpin everything. Why am I here? What is my purpose? What is the- And it can be exhausting to be that present all the time. And that's why we do see a lot of burnout or, you know, the flip, the switch just flips and you swear or you say the wrong thing and then you're gone. You know, it's really, really challenging, really challenging. speaker-1: and how then do you cultivate that presence? speaker-0: I think it's practice. really do think it's practice. And there's a lot of media practice and there's a lot of communications practice and simulations. And so we will go through a lot of scenarios and prospective questions and then take a look at, okay, we'll record it and we'll look back and say, look what you were doing here, look what you're doing there. And then we can make those adjustments. But it really is a presence and it really is repetition and commitment and practice. And I also encourage them to do it outside of the work arena with family, with friends in the grocery store, the people that come up to you in the street. These are little micro moments where you can go into this idea of looking people in the eye, finding a free breath, really connecting with people. And when you have that connection, as you know, that feeds your nervous system and brings you into an optimal state for communication and connection. speaker-1: Exactly. Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, that's some really rich, rich, rich stuff. I I can see you've spent quite a bit of time doing this and working with people who are... in enormously stressful situations and the stakes could not possibly really be higher than in those political environments. Yeah, I mean, really all I would add to that is one of the things I suggest with my clients, especially those who spend a lot of time in meetings, a lot of time using their voices, is to work with that 70-30, but then be in a... as much as they can, nourishing themselves and breathing and almost meditating themselves in all the gaps as opposed to when listening, as opposed to listening as if we're eating everything voraciously or kind of just up in our heads. Listen, but let the words flow through us and just nourish and nourish and relax and come home. And so then when the time comes to use the voice, we are not depleted, something like that. speaker-0: A lot like that. Yes. the and what you do off the mat is so important to your point is what is nourishing to me. Is that time with friends? Is that reading books? Is that going to your favorite noodle house? It's like one of the things that nourish you off the mat so that you can live another day. That container of safety and habits of safety that you have. What are some of yours? speaker-1: Yeah, well, I just got to riff off that like just tips for everyone while you're mentioning all of those things, just to really throw in on top of that for those of those in the audience who are using their voice in high stakes environments, like watch the caffeine, watch the drinking the night before, do your nervous system regulation, keep exercising, like everything's important when you need to show up and put yourself into the spotlight. And it's glorious being in flow in the spotlight. And it's incredible how much folks don't necessarily support themselves in the lead up to that time they need to use their voice. So yeah, I can't remember your question. was? Yay! Only humans. And we're not politicians. speaker-0: We're not, the stakes are high here. speaker-1: We can take our time, but we can pause. speaker-0: Yes, I wouldn't want to be there for anything. It's and I just have so much respect for what they do and what they put their bodies through. It's really significant and I do think that wholeheartedly. So you were talking about those that little container of safety. What are the things that we do to nourish ourselves and remembering that it is so important? before we get to the spotlight. love what you said. And when you're in flow, it's glorious under the spotlight because it truly is. So making sure that we're taking the time in the lead up. listened to Julia Louis Dreyfus and she's someone asked her, what is a good day for you? And she said, a good day starts the night before. It's like, yeah, sleep uninterrupted. speaker-1: How could we not mention that? Possibly number one. That's huge. I would love to just go on a side quest into play. And I know it's something that you love to work with and it's part of your work. I people would even wonder what is the connection between plays and voice at all? speaker-0: ⁓ good. Definitely number one. Yes. ⁓ I can't help it. It's just, I just can't help it. I'm silly. And I will, and I, and I love being creative and it's really how I've designed most of my exercises have just come out of going, ⁓ I wonder if I go there and then go there. And then I think it's really is from my acting training and my acting background of just saying yes and being playful. When I incorporate the play into vocal exercises. I try to do it like I'm hiding the veggies, you know, we're already there so we might as well go over here, right? And people get so surprised at what they've done because you know play gets a bad rap. It's childish or it's you know, we don't have time to play. There's too much competition and we've got to strive and we've got to work and it's like ⁓ but there's another way. There is truly another way to arrive at what you need and where you need to be. Vocal play, because we're incorporating the larynx, the breath, the social engagement system, the sparkle in the eye, the uncertainty, the rupture, the repair, we're really forming this beautiful agility and flexibility in our nervous system. And so a vocal play exercise, we can do it by ourselves, I mean the kazoo or the dolphin, this is vocal play. Or we can be in connection with another person and make silly sounds and you know, connect that to movement and to our bodies and then we have these emotions and these thoughts and this possibility arrive. And in just a very, very short exercise, someone might just feel different, go, ⁓ wow, I feel like changed and that's going to be different for everyone. Or it's like, I never want to do that again. Please don't do that. That's never happened to me, actually. Yes, it's never happened to me. It has always been a delightful surprise. And I'm very conscious of how much play I incorporate with the person. It's very dependent on who I'm working with. I have not. I had not been in the room with actors for a really long time, but I'm doing a play right now. And I was, ⁓ yeah, was leading the, ⁓ the local warmups for rehearsals and I'd forgotten just how expressive actors are. And so here I was from my political and my business world with my tiny little bit of vocal play and I would just go in and then they're like, and like, ⁓ So it's like, ⁓ okay. I'm here. So now I can go here, which is like way out there So I'm very conscious of how much play I incorporate But it's always a delightful surprise for people because it we don't have to be serious about everything in fact Can we not be serious about everything because everything in the world is so serious and we need these moments of level to levity so that we can continue to step through our lives speaker-1: That's beautiful. I love your emphasis on play. I often remind people when we're talking about voice about what they might have been like at four or five years old when they were capable of being very silly and making lots of sounds with their voices and what it was like to be able to move, like if they were to guess what emotions were in their body when they were a four or five year old dancing and singing and goofing around and... we'll say enjoyment, enthusiasm, joy maybe. And I often feel like with a vocal suppression and the suppression of spontaneous movement in the body, but really specifically around vocal suppression is that a lot of joy leaves the building. And that the recovery of a voice, as you describe, when you bring joy back in, it... and you bring playback in, there's a potential for the recovery of some joy, which we could all do with some more of, and more agency and more ability to flow because the enemy of flow is the shutting down mechanism that many of us inherited. It's scary to use your voice. We should not take any risks. We should follow the script. We should wear a flat mask and just be acceptable. and our wilder, more creative selves got domesticated. yeah, so play is just this incredible vehicle for opening up that same through line we were talking about, which is to ⁓ be in line with our intentions, to let the fullness of ourself out, to be able to stand up in front of people and for people to be able to feel our humanity. rather than feel a brittle mask that's just doing talking poids. speaker-0: To feel their humanity. It reminded me of when we were talking about the joy and through a vocal exercise, a playful vocal exercise that unlocks joy. I did have a client recently and she's still a client where we were just exploring different sounds through the body. And when you come up into the head, you know, the voice goes up. And there is this childlike wonderment and curiosity. And it really unlocked Pandora's box. went back to her origin story and the home she grew up in and that she had not accessed her. I'm not going to say what little girl voice, but it was her younger selves voice that she had completely locked away before. before things started to shut her down in the home. And it was significant in her healing journey. And it was very, very emotional for her. the air tasted differently and the world looked different from this place that she had not seen or felt or heard because, you know, voice is heard, but it's also felt. felt in here and felt by us and heard, you know, it's this real dual sensory experience. And it was, it changed her. Just these little playful exercises of being a little buzzy mosquito. And then she just to speak up here and it was like, and you could see it. And this was the nervous system at work. And finally feeling safe enough back up there to be and to step into more of the fullness of herself to use your words. speaker-1: That's beautiful. love that beautiful buzzy bee or buzzy fly or mosquito. can't kill a bee. Poor mosquitoes. They can die. What do you feel is the... What happens when someone accesses or releases or reintegrates... speaker-0: There's a laugh on them. speaker-1: child aspect, a child voice that gets shut down. What's the benefit of that? Let's just say I'm in corporate, I'm a CEO. Why is it going to benefit from integrating a six-year-old me? speaker-0: You see, that's when I go, okay, let's take a break and come back and do it again. speaker-1: You speaker-0: Oh yeah. I was just talking, we were just talking about this yesterday in a class of how it is such a tough sell in the corporate world to incorporate play. It is such a tough sell and using that to make any kind of change. Apparently 97 % of change initiatives fail in the corporate world. And we know there are many, rooms who won't even look at it. I mean, there are many places that say, okay, you can come in and I want you to do nervous system regulation, but you can't mention trauma. You can't breathe. You can't do it. And they have all of these boundaries around. It's like, well, that's well, I know why I'm here, but I don't think we're going to get very far. And I had a client who works in in very, very big rooms and she had all those parameters and all of those boundaries. So she adhered to them and the feedback was, well, we really needed this, this and this. And a couple of them were on the no-go zones in the beginning. It's like, yes, I kind of told you. So I don't have the answer really. I think it takes really special companies to embrace it and to understand it because there's, how do you measure the data? speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: How can you tell me, excuse me, human voice coming through? It's morning here, so I've got a little frog voice in my throat. How do I measure the data so that I can sell it, so that I can get the money to do it? And then usually it's with people who have been mandated to do the work and senior management haven't done it. So why should I do it? There's so many things that are at play and there's ⁓ people who are trying to bring so much of that to the work. I think you have to disguise it, honestly. You disguise it, you go in for one thing and you get on with the other. And so we will do some vocal play exercises without them knowing. So I don't know the answer. It's still a work in progress, really. speaker-1: Yeah, I really get that. I mean, it's so interesting, you know, if one looks at, I wouldn't say necessarily the facts, or if one looks at what happens to people when they shut down or at least contract while speaking, especially if they're having a big anxiety response, is their system, let's just say, is going into large amounts of fear because they're standing in a room of 50 people with 50 eyes or 100 eyes on them. And Some people go into mortal fear in situations like that. And yet, you could say that their nervous system is lying to them. There's no reason to be in mortal fear. They are not going to be attacked. It feels like that to our, let's just say, our social systems, that there's that kind of danger. But from a conditioning point of view, usually from my point of view, what's happening is that that person who's standing up there, as a child, more often than not, experienced unsafe environments where their body would go into a freeze or a shutdown and it was extremely scary. And in the words of, or the terminology of Peter Walker, who wrote Complex PTSD, a fantastic book, the person is essentially walking into that room and having an emotional flashback. In other words, that their body and system is going into a fear response that they've had repeatedly in those environments ever since childhood. It's not a useful response, but the body is locked in a particular kind of flashback. And it's difficult to sell that, as you said, at the level of corporate, where ⁓ people don't really want to deal with inner children and play and so on. But... what we're talking about really throughout as a through line through this whole conversation is this ability to liberate a voice and to arrive and speak with our full intention with all of ourselves. Yeah, any thoughts about that? I saw you write something down. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: It's a... I always try to... You know, working on The Voice is not therapy, but it's very therapeutic and it brings up so many different things. And I always try to create a space where I get my clients to be curious, or maybe, I mean, and what if, and was there? And so I always try to let them think about that and they can reveal as much as they want to. I think, think definitely in the corporate world where it's not safe to bring up these feelings of when you were a child and this, there is just no way. I worked in a, in a film school for 20 years as a teacher. And I could do that with those people because we were all actors. ⁓ and we're working in a business in a corporate like school. But when you're in business and in those rooms, it's, I would say, virtually impossible. I have a lot of lawyers in my family and they would just look at me as, ⁓ Aunty Maddie is woo woo again. Like, what is she doing? So I, what am I trying to say here? I think it's really, and then it goes back to originally what we were talking about is feeling safe enough for our voices to emerge. And I think the truth of the matter is, that there are just so many places that don't feel safe. And that's the challenge. That really is the challenge. Because if they were creating a culture, and that doesn't mean foosball tables or, you know, take out Fridays. That's not culture. is, that is something that continues to be worked on. It's not just ticking a box to say we have wellbeing courses or yoga on Thursdays. It's so much deeper than that for people to feel connected with that safety and belonging that they feel valued and that they can contribute without the fear of, fear of, I don't have a word, fear of evaluation or other threats. you know, if I talk about women's voices as well and I get invited to an to work with women and work on women's voices in the workplace. The work cannot be done without the men. Because it just becomes this endless wheel. ⁓ We're good, we're ready, we've got it. But what is the listening that I am speaking into? So it's... And I might just say men, I mean other women as well. I mean, I'm not just going to say that all women want to work on their voices. speaker-1: Bye. speaker-0: It's a bit of a gross generalisation, but it is out there in that I think everyone has to come to the table to shift the paradigm. speaker-1: Yeah, and there's a lot of paradigm shifting required, isn't there? You know, we haven't even really spoken about listening. I would still, though, love to come back to something, word that you were using, and you've used a few times that I think is really important, which is agility. Why is agility important when using your voice? What is agility? speaker-0: Flexibility, expansion and contraction. If we look at the voice as the broadcaster of our physiological state, think, well, think of it in terms of acting, a limited vocal range is a limited acting range. Can we think about that for just a moment? A limited vocal range is a limited acting range. So if I have more notes in my voice, a larger, deeper, wider ocean of all that landscape that we were talking about before, and I connect that truthfully to how I'm feeling and my intention and what I want to say, then we have a voice that is engaging. We have a voice that is surprising because we've got to stay in here because we don't know where they're going to go. But if we're staying here on one night, we can check out, we can check our watch, we can get a coffee, come check back in. ⁓ they're still there. So I think by having an agile voice or a dynamic voice, one that is capable of many thoughts and feelings of representing or attaching to thoughts and feelings and emotions, then we become engaging and we invite people in to listen to us. And I think that's really important when we have the thing that needs to be said. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. You have both an agile voice, an agile face and body. And I'll add in one other thing, an agile nervous system, able to navigate being triggered. Someone says something annoying in a meeting. How do we carry that foundation with us that you described earlier, that real sense of stability underneath us, allowing ourselves to move into some fight? as is required to meet a situation or to meet the enthusiasm of a little bit of sympathetic nervous system activation as we really perform to move with our nervous system and not be scared of it moving because we have got this magnificent stability underpinning us. I'm just going to go with whatever you're writing down. speaker-0: That is regulation. is regulation. Nervous system regulation isn't about calming down. It is about having the flexibility to move and the resilience to come back. And this is what vocal play exercises do as well. You know, we start in this safety zone and then we go out. And then we come back. It's the coming back that really, we really have to work on that expansion and contraction, rupture and repair, going out and coming back. And so that is regulation and not getting stuck in any of those zones where we're constantly in a survival response. So it's the ability and the flexibility and the agility ⁓ that we cultivate so that we can meet life's challenges. and show up with the fullness of ourselves, Jeremy. speaker-1: ⁓ I love it when you quote me. We're doing it with each other. It's fabulous. Is there anything else about your work and what you like to focus on that you'd like to share? speaker-0: ⁓ no. speaker-1: Then I have a question for you, which is, what does a world look like where people have learned to liberate their voices and speak and listen from a healthy place? speaker-0: I Wow. What does that world look like? ⁓ boy. I, wow. I get emotional when I think about that. That's a really emotional question. ⁓ see the broadcaster of your bodily state in action. You can hear it in my voice. Because the world is so awful right now. That would be a dream. what it would actually look like. think the other piece that we need to ⁓ factor in there is discernment because it's knowing what to say and when as well that we really need to consider and that comes from attunement and the listening and the sensitivity and awareness of trauma that always come into our rooms and is present in the world so fully. ⁓ I think there would be peace, Jeremy. speaker-1: I do too. Yeah, I feel that there is something in our DNA you could say, or in being human in our neurophysiology even that is very tribal, that seeks safety, that is scared of other, seeming otherness. And there's something about habitually introducing states of stability and safety into the body when speaking and listening around others that dissolves some of that apparent tribalism, otherness, and we move from me and mine and my people to much more from me to we into a sense of us. And so there's a potential as voices evolve for them to become kinder, more connected, we you know, might speak about the ventral vagal nervous system, and you've mentioned social engagement. We have built into us a nervous system that wants to connect and feel related and safe with others and... The biggest manifestation I would hope for all of us is increased safety in our bodies that we fall kind of in love with each other in the world and our seeming otherness and allow that to dissolve, be kind with each other. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: it there. speaker-1: That sounds good. Maddie, thank you so much. It's been such a joy sharing this time with you. speaker-0: An absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for the invitation and for the conversation. speaker-1: And thank you to all the radiant beings who have been listening. Please have a look at Maddie's work. You'll see her links in the show notes. And yeah, I'm just so grateful you came and shared your being with us today. speaker-0: Thank you, Jeremy. ⁓