Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Golden Age of Armed Robbery | Ray Lambie

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The Golden Age of Armed Robbery | Ray Lambie · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche Production.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Thanks for joining us. Make sure you subscribe
0:18
Speaker 2: to the podcast and share this with your friends for
0:20
Speaker 2: more independent crime journalism. These days, bank robbers worked with
0:25
Speaker 2: a PC and a phone, but once upon a time
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Speaker 2: it was Balaclaver's and sawn Off shotguns. The nineteen eighties
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Speaker 2: was the so called Golden era of armed robbers who
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Speaker 2: targeted banks, but also clubs, pubs, service stations anywhere that
0:38
Speaker 2: was holding cash.
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Speaker 1: Police have confirmed another armed hold up in Sydney today.
0:43
Speaker 1: Witnesses say the gunmen were calm, professional and heavily armed.
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Speaker 2: It was a time of prosperity and in that time
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Speaker 2: there were thousands of armed robberies every year across Australia.
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Speaker 2: That led to a kind of cult status among criminals.
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Speaker 2: The counter jumpers, as they were known, were regarded highly
1:00
Speaker 2: among the criminal class.
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Speaker 3: Escaped convict Ray Denning taunted for again today, boasting of
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Speaker 3: his freedom and daring them to catch him.
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Speaker 2: Names like Ray Denning, Ray Chuck Bennett, and Russell Cox
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Speaker 2: were revered in the underworld and even romanticized by some
1:17
Speaker 2: members of the public. In reality, these men were brutal
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Speaker 2: egomaniacs with no regard for public safety as they wreaked
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Speaker 2: havoc in the community and left their victims with terrible trauma.
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Speaker 1: By the late nineteen eighties, armed robberies in Australia had
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Speaker 1: peaked at over six thousand incidents a year.
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Speaker 2: Finally, in the nineteen nineties, technology began to catch up
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Speaker 2: with the bank robbers with bulletproof security screens, CCTV and
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Speaker 2: other developments that put an end to this trade. My
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Speaker 2: guest today, retired Detective Ray Lamby, joined the Armed Robbery
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Speaker 2: Squad of New South Wales Police in nineteen eighty five,
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Speaker 2: at the height of this so called golden age of
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Speaker 2: armed robberies, and he's agreed to share some memories of
2:01
Speaker 2: those heady and dangerous times.
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Speaker 1: Gid I rap, good morning, Adam, how are you good?
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Speaker 2: Thank you so you joined the arm robbers ninety eighty five.
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Speaker 2: It was a hectic time.
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Speaker 3: It was a very hectic time and it was very
2:13
Speaker 3: much a new experience for me. I was the first
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Speaker 3: detective to go into the arm table up squad as
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Speaker 3: a permanent transfer who had not completed their designation as
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Speaker 3: a detective, so it was very much a steep learning
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Speaker 3: curve for me, and what.
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Speaker 2: Were you faced with what was the daily task of
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Speaker 2: the squad at the time.
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Speaker 3: So it's important to understand at this stage that the
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Speaker 3: squad itself comprised about sixty men. And when I say
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Speaker 3: sixty men, we didn't have any women in the squad
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Speaker 3: at that stage. So it was a system of pairs
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Speaker 3: where you'd have a senior man and a junior man,
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Speaker 3: and across the group, you know, you would have geographically
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Speaker 3: based people who would take care of the informants, et cetera,
2:52
Speaker 3: or the crimes that were taking place in those areas.
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Speaker 3: It was not a geographically determined situation, but a lot
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Speaker 3: of people who came from places like I do, from
3:00
Speaker 3: the Solent Shot or from the Northern Beaches area, had
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Speaker 3: their own network of informants. They had their own network
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Speaker 3: of contacts, businesses, etc. That they would use to stay
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Speaker 3: ahead of the game or in fact go after the
3:12
Speaker 3: criminals that were in the area at the time.
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Speaker 2: Right, it seems like you want to stay ahead of
3:15
Speaker 2: the game. It's always the object of policing. But it
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Speaker 2: seems like there was a lot of reactive work going
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Speaker 2: on as well, because it was just so many robberies
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Speaker 2: going off, and it wasn't just banks, it was a
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Speaker 2: whole range of any outlet holding cash.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And what you actually have here is in an
3:30
Speaker 3: arm robber you have the most classic serialized offender. It's
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Speaker 3: the most classic serialized offense, and it's also a serialized investigation.
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Speaker 3: So in a day's work at the armhold up squad,
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Speaker 3: you would actually have a briefing on what had occurred
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Speaker 3: in the past twenty four hours, and one of the
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Speaker 3: things that we would have is swift access to, say,
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Speaker 3: for instance, the bank photographs that were taken during the
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Speaker 3: commission of the offenses. So there needed to be a
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Speaker 3: chain of continuity for those photographs to make sure that
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Speaker 3: they were of evidentiary value, So within twenty four hours
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Speaker 3: we would have those from the following day, and then
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Speaker 3: we would take care of assessing with firstly as this
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Speaker 3: serialized defender was, if we'd seen him before in images
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Speaker 3: from another bank propering, you know, if it wasn't a
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Speaker 3: bank robbery, who was the victim, what type of business
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Speaker 3: was it, where was it, what type of car was used,
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Speaker 3: what types of words were said, how many people were
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Speaker 3: in the crew, the types of weapons that were used
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Speaker 3: and the words were actually said. These were all parts
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Speaker 3: of them of the offender that we used to assess
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Speaker 3: in order to be able to look at that serialized investigation,
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Speaker 3: because much like a gesaw puzzle, each one of those
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Speaker 3: offenses would actually provide more information about the offenders, not
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Speaker 3: specifically enough for the one offense, but when you looked
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Speaker 3: at them collectively, you'd be able to actually determine what
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Speaker 3: evidence may be available from the range of offenses these
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Speaker 3: people had committed.
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Speaker 2: We had a cohort in Victoria of experienced arm robbers,
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Speaker 2: if you like. Did you have the same sort of
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Speaker 2: thing in New South Wales? Were you dealing with a
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Speaker 2: small pool of people or was it something that the
5:00
Speaker 2: crooks were seeing as an opportunity The banks were soft
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Speaker 2: targets and amateurs could get base, anybody with a balaclava
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Speaker 2: and a weapon could get in or what was the situation?
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Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, but we need to look at the get
5:13
Speaker 3: back to the grassroots for the bad guys here the
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Speaker 3: criminal fraternity, and basically what is actually happening is that
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Speaker 3: I can use the example of their motivation. So the
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Speaker 3: motivation for an arm robber in the eighties and early
5:25
Speaker 3: nineties may have actually been the fact that they were
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Speaker 3: drug addicted and they needed large amounts of cash daily
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Speaker 3: in order to actually facilitate.
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Speaker 1: Their drug habits.
5:34
Speaker 3: And bear in mind that behind every man there's a
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Speaker 3: good woman, so there may have been a double addiction
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Speaker 3: involved as well. If you had a crew of three
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Speaker 3: or four, then you actually had needs for large amounts
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Speaker 3: of cash on a daily basis. So the frequency of
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Speaker 3: your drug addiction would actually determine the amount of crimes
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Speaker 3: that you would actually have to commit to not go
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Speaker 3: out and fill euphoric but in order not just to
5:56
Speaker 3: fell sick. So we have seen some changes in recent
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Speaker 3: times into the motivations of these people, whether they be
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Speaker 3: career criminals, and in particular in the nineties, we saw
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Speaker 3: people change from what they were doing in a different
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Speaker 3: type of crime into becoming lifestyle type criminals.
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Speaker 1: And the lifestyle criminals they.
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Speaker 3: Were encouraged everything from drug addiction, alcohol, sex workers and
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Speaker 3: just living it up. And those referred to it as
6:21
Speaker 3: the fast and furious type of offender.
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Speaker 2: So how would you go about developing human sources to
6:27
Speaker 2: work out who and what was going to happen.
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Speaker 3: Well, if you think closely about this as the type
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Speaker 3: of offender that an arm robber is.
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Speaker 1: And this is not me saying that it is.
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Speaker 3: My experience, but the Australian Institute of Criminology have identified
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Speaker 3: that arm robbers are the most classic precuitus offenders. So
6:43
Speaker 3: what you actually have is people who are recycled. They
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Speaker 3: become recycled. Whatever that motivation is that gets and become
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Speaker 3: an arm robber and accept the risk of getting caught
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Speaker 3: and going to jail or even worse, getting killed on
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Speaker 3: the spot, it is a continuing motivation. So basically, when
6:57
Speaker 3: you have that, you can meet these people, you see
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Speaker 3: them being recycled, you can actually recognize them, which happened
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Speaker 3: on many times through the bank photos. It said for
7:05
Speaker 3: all the other victim photographs that were taken and see
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Speaker 3: them recycle. Now, if you treat them properly at the
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Speaker 3: time of your first meeting with them, you can actually
7:13
Speaker 3: encourage a relationship and sooner or later those types of
7:16
Speaker 3: people will come to you and say, look, I need
7:18
Speaker 3: a hand, can you help me out? So that's how
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Speaker 3: we would basically encourage that unofficial liaison or informer type
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Speaker 3: base for these people to come forward and assist in
7:28
Speaker 3: the future.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I guess you talk about recipibus criminals being
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Speaker 2: arm robbers, but you've also got, if they're drug addicts,
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Speaker 2: a coored of often malleable informants who are prepared to
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Speaker 2: give them up. Was that part of the strategy, just
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Speaker 2: trying to work out who these guys were and where
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Speaker 2: to get them.
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Speaker 3: Well, that's correct, and basically you know, so these guys
7:48
Speaker 3: may have been the guys who are going out and
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Speaker 3: robbing places in order to get the money and then
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Speaker 3: spending it with drug dealers, but drug dealers would also
7:55
Speaker 3: need a hand. So if the drug dealers we're looking
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Speaker 3: for some type of letter of comfort through the court system,
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Speaker 3: then they would be prepared to assist in providing intelligence
8:05
Speaker 3: information in relation to any specific crime or the persons
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Speaker 3: who they believe may have been doing that.
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Speaker 1: So it's a cycle.
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Speaker 2: Yes, Bertie Kidd recruited a number of police officers under
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Speaker 2: his payroll who were prepared to almost go ahead of
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Speaker 2: him and do reconnoiter of places where he could cut safe.
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Speaker 4: Or even do our robberies.
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Speaker 2: Did you have a bit of that issue as well,
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Speaker 2: that the people in the force might have been willing
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Speaker 2: to assist some of these guys for cash and fund
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Speaker 2: as well.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, just as a leading I met Bertie Kid on
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Speaker 3: a number of occasions up here in Sydney. He's a
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Speaker 3: very cunning criminal. He was a very engaging person as well.
8:39
Speaker 3: He was quite charismatic. He was someone you could actually
8:42
Speaker 3: have a conversation with, but the conversation was always to
8:45
Speaker 3: be in his benefit. And in fact I spoke to
8:47
Speaker 3: him one night I think it was the night, I
8:49
Speaker 3: can't remember who it was, but he was virtually trying
8:51
Speaker 3: to give himself an alibi.
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Speaker 1: It was an alibi for murder.
8:55
Speaker 3: So with Bertie Kidd, a very cunning criminal, a very
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Speaker 3: skillful criminal and had been around for a long time
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Speaker 3: and was known in the trade as in criminal investigation
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Speaker 3: as one of the old killers. But yes, corruption is
9:07
Speaker 3: always something which could occur. I mean it's historically documented
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Speaker 3: about the corruption in New South Wales as.
9:13
Speaker 4: Well, it is.
9:14
Speaker 2: And that would have been either the murder of Desi
9:17
Speaker 2: Lewis or roy Therger imagine.
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Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was Desi Lewis outside of the
9:21
Speaker 3: tea out and say Telebonne dijunction.
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Speaker 4: That's right.
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Speaker 2: And he'd been I think at a restaurant or something
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Speaker 2: or even another puble where he'd actually ducked out of
9:29
Speaker 2: the function, gone and killed Lewis and then come back
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Speaker 2: and was actually engaged in conversation with some cops to
9:36
Speaker 2: give himself a really good alibi. He was one of
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Speaker 2: those guys who was a real all rounder, and I
9:40
Speaker 2: guess it was interesting his final downfall up in Queensland
9:43
Speaker 2: night in ninety seven. I believe he goes in league
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Speaker 2: with a ex prison officer and a couple of Likelis
9:51
Speaker 2: from Sydney, and they'd tried to knock over a chemical
9:53
Speaker 2: company in search of pseudoephdron And you see how much
9:57
Speaker 2: he's sixty three at this time, and you see how
9:59
Speaker 2: much he slipped from his heydays. He's working with the
10:02
Speaker 2: next screw who actually I think gives him up board
10:05
Speaker 2: that does some stupid things on the phone, the whole thing.
10:07
Speaker 2: So these people had a limited lifespan that you could
10:09
Speaker 2: say he was well passed his time, did a lot
10:11
Speaker 2: of jail after that. But we did see this period
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Speaker 2: in the mid eighties where there were some really willing
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Speaker 2: robbers who were the people that you identified as been
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Speaker 2: the greatest threats.
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Speaker 3: Well, you mentioned earlier on about Victoria and the Victorian
10:27
Speaker 3: police and I'll take my hat off to the Victorian
10:29
Speaker 3: Armed Robbery Squad. They were by far, in my experience,
10:32
Speaker 3: they were the most professional group of detectives I ever
10:34
Speaker 3: worked with. And I worked across Australia with every state
10:37
Speaker 3: and territory police and they were black and white. If
10:42
Speaker 3: you were a crooked, they hated you. There was no
10:43
Speaker 3: gray in it. If on the other side of it,
10:46
Speaker 3: you're a criminal and you're a jack, as they used
10:49
Speaker 3: to call them the cops, the crims.
10:51
Speaker 1: Hated you too. But I think their professionalism was.
10:54
Speaker 3: Actually born out of the fact that they had the
10:56
Speaker 3: worst crooks in Australia in Victoria as well. So there's
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Speaker 3: not too many other places in Australia or in fact
11:01
Speaker 3: the world that could say that they've had their police
11:03
Speaker 3: headquarters blown up with a bomb, or the fact that
11:06
Speaker 3: they've had two young uniform constables brought into an area
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Speaker 3: to be executed. So that's the type of criminal they're
11:12
Speaker 3: dealing with. And in fact, in the eighties here in Sydney,
11:14
Speaker 3: we actually had a number of Victorian criminals come and
11:17
Speaker 3: visit US patters and dockers, etc. Who, because of their
11:21
Speaker 3: own ristpanagement as robbers, they were leaving the state because
11:24
Speaker 3: at that stage there was a spate of shootings by
11:27
Speaker 3: the arm ropery squad. So you know, up here in
11:29
Speaker 3: Sydney criminal fraternity, we had our home grown ones, you know,
11:34
Speaker 3: and if you're in Victoria, they would basically just be
11:36
Speaker 3: referred to as shipman. They're out every day and they
11:39
Speaker 3: were doing their best. You know, we had crimes where
11:42
Speaker 3: you know, it was high volume convenience store, petrol station
11:47
Speaker 3: and it was virtually endless, so the people could go
11:49
Speaker 3: out and commit crime after crime after crime every day
11:52
Speaker 3: of their working life, and their working life was criminality.
11:56
Speaker 3: But up here, you know, of course we had our
11:58
Speaker 3: very own Nettie Smith as one of the major cashing
12:01
Speaker 3: transit armored car type robbers and his crew. They were
12:05
Speaker 3: fragmented at different stages with different crooks who came along.
12:09
Speaker 3: But you know, there's I would refrain from calling them
12:12
Speaker 3: good criminals. They were good at their task, but they
12:15
Speaker 3: were very dangerous people. Because what you need to understand
12:18
Speaker 3: is that most human beings, their primary instinct, whether you're
12:21
Speaker 3: a crook or a cop or either, your primary instinct
12:25
Speaker 3: to see human being is for survival. And that's unfortunately
12:29
Speaker 3: why we had so many people who were suffering at
12:31
Speaker 3: the hands of armed robbers, because as an armed robber,
12:34
Speaker 3: you want to go in and achieve control of your
12:36
Speaker 3: victims as quickly as possible. If they offer a threat
12:39
Speaker 3: to you, that's when the worst can happen. And a
12:41
Speaker 3: lot of people don't understand. But the fact of homicides
12:44
Speaker 3: in Australia that one in ten of those homicides actually
12:47
Speaker 3: starts out as a robbery.
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Speaker 2: You mentioned Eddie Smith, he only had success because of
12:53
Speaker 2: his relationship with one Roger calib Rogerson, the so called
12:56
Speaker 2: green Light. How true was the Blue Murder Show about
13:00
Speaker 2: how Roger was setting up targets for Nettie and his cohort.
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Speaker 3: Well, I've got to say that I never met Roger
13:07
Speaker 3: when I was in the place, and if you go back,
13:09
Speaker 3: I think he left the police in nine eighty four,
13:12
Speaker 3: and that was a year before I went to the
13:14
Speaker 3: armed hold Up Squad. I did meet him after when
13:16
Speaker 3: he actually did me a favor. So I know a
13:19
Speaker 3: lot of people were in Roger's corner, but he'd gone
13:21
Speaker 3: around the corner and up the bend at one stage
13:23
Speaker 3: there where he actually had that relationship with Ned which
13:26
Speaker 3: was like a symbiotic relationship. I've got no experience in it.
13:30
Speaker 3: In fact, I'm not sure about the green light. I
13:32
Speaker 3: know that when I was in the arm robbery squad,
13:33
Speaker 3: the green light didn't exist, particularly from me and the
13:37
Speaker 3: other people that I worked with. And in fact I
13:39
Speaker 3: pinched Eddie Smith outside the Botany Council doing an arm
13:41
Speaker 3: robby on an armored car in nine and eighty eight.
13:44
Speaker 4: It was exciting for the arm robbers.
13:46
Speaker 2: What was it like for the detectives who were sometimes
13:49
Speaker 2: on the scene like that.
13:50
Speaker 4: It must have been a high adrenaline job.
13:52
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I don't think I've heard other people describe it,
13:55
Speaker 3: but there is no greater experience than hunting a man
13:58
Speaker 3: or a group of men. And basically that is because
14:01
Speaker 3: you know the clock is ticking every time one of
14:04
Speaker 3: these offenses is coming. There's potential for real harm, not
14:08
Speaker 3: just on the victims, but on members of the public
14:10
Speaker 3: who may be around and know up to an including fatality.
14:13
Speaker 1: So it's an interesting thing.
14:15
Speaker 3: But we talk about catching killers, and you know, I
14:19
Speaker 3: appreciate homicide and this might be a little bit controversial
14:21
Speaker 3: a few of my friends in our criminal investigation game,
14:24
Speaker 3: but homicide was where robbery squad detectives weren't for arrest.
14:28
Speaker 3: We were having around six thousand hold ups a year
14:31
Speaker 3: and there was around about thirty on an average homicides
14:34
Speaker 3: a year. So the difference in skills is an application
14:38
Speaker 3: within the criminal fraternity. Is a very interesting way to
14:41
Speaker 3: think of it. But we obviously have issues with adrenaline,
14:45
Speaker 3: and when I went to the armhold up Squad in
14:47
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five, we actually were doing our own assaults
14:51
Speaker 3: and interventions. We were part of the Special Weapons not
14:53
Speaker 3: Operations Squad and trained to do those types of issues.
14:57
Speaker 3: At the same time, the benefit of that was that
14:59
Speaker 3: we also had a lot of experience in the courts,
15:01
Speaker 3: so I won't say professional witnesses, but we were actually
15:04
Speaker 3: practiced with assistant could see a lot of the traps
15:06
Speaker 3: that were being set by barristers along the way, as
15:09
Speaker 3: opposed to now when you see the police give evidence.
15:11
Speaker 3: It's a different game to what it was in our days.
15:15
Speaker 3: But outside Botany counsel in nine eighty eight, when we
15:18
Speaker 3: pinched Ned Smith, Glenn Flack and Harry Harris, I thought
15:22
Speaker 3: my head was going to explode.
15:23
Speaker 1: The dreadom was that hard?
15:25
Speaker 4: Tell us about that day.
15:27
Speaker 3: Well, it was a very interesting day because I'm sure,
15:30
Speaker 3: as you can understand, there's a lot of surveillance that
15:32
Speaker 3: takes place in this type of the game which never
15:35
Speaker 3: comes to fruition. You know, intelligence comes in and there's
15:38
Speaker 3: been some suspicious looking characters watching an armor car deliver cash.
15:41
Speaker 3: So we were bound to go out and do those
15:43
Speaker 3: every week. But on this occasion, what had happened was
15:47
Speaker 3: I was driving home south along Botany Rail at Mascot
15:50
Speaker 3: and I noticed that there was one of another police
15:53
Speaker 3: car in front of me, which included a number of
15:55
Speaker 3: blacks from the Special Breaking Squad, and I noticed that
15:58
Speaker 3: they actually ducked off the main drag very very quickly
16:01
Speaker 3: and took a detour, and well, I just kept going.
16:05
Speaker 1: I got home. I've got a call to.
16:06
Speaker 3: Say that you'll have to be the sea in the
16:08
Speaker 3: morning at four am, and we've spotted something outside the
16:11
Speaker 3: Botany Council Chambers that we think may be of interest
16:15
Speaker 3: to ourselves and to you guys. So at that stage,
16:18
Speaker 3: what had actually happened. When we got there the next morning,
16:21
Speaker 3: we were briefed on the fact that the Special Breaking Squad,
16:23
Speaker 3: and in particular a detective inspector by the name of
16:26
Speaker 3: John Davidson, who's quite legendary up here, had spotted Ned
16:29
Speaker 3: Smith and another criminal by the name of Glenn Flack
16:32
Speaker 3: and a third person who was at that stage unidentified
16:34
Speaker 3: outside of the Botany Council Chambers, and what they were
16:37
Speaker 3: actually doing was their rehearsal for the following morning, and
16:41
Speaker 3: the rehearsal was watched a distance by Davidson and his crew.
16:46
Speaker 1: And so the following morning what.
16:47
Speaker 3: We do was get back into position and be ready
16:49
Speaker 3: to see what was actually occurring. And around about seven
16:52
Speaker 3: am that morning, a van was driven to the front
16:55
Speaker 3: of the council chambers and the person actually driving the
16:58
Speaker 3: van was wearing gloves.
17:00
Speaker 1: So the little bongo style van that was noticed.
17:03
Speaker 3: We had actually set up an observation post with inside
17:06
Speaker 3: the council chambers up on I think it was level three.
17:09
Speaker 3: One of our detectives was watching the street front and
17:12
Speaker 3: he was briefing us on what was actually going on.
17:14
Speaker 1: At that point in time. We obviously thought that well,
17:17
Speaker 1: this could be a goer.
17:18
Speaker 3: So as we were watching via the observation post eyes
17:23
Speaker 3: the man in the driver's seat wiped down the inside
17:25
Speaker 3: of the car, got out and walked off and left
17:28
Speaker 3: the van parked out the front, so basically we were
17:31
Speaker 3: then in weight. He then returned in another car and
17:35
Speaker 3: parked opposite the council chambers at the back of a
17:37
Speaker 3: bank car park where he had a clear view up
17:40
Speaker 3: and down Coward Street and across to the council chambers,
17:43
Speaker 3: and as it turned out, the armored car when it arrived,
17:47
Speaker 3: we actually delayed the council from handing out the Christmas payroll.
17:51
Speaker 3: It was a double payroll, so they'd done their homework
17:53
Speaker 3: to get the maximum reward out of one job rather
17:57
Speaker 3: than having to do it twice, so we actually delayed
18:00
Speaker 3: that and then it divened and took on the assault
18:01
Speaker 3: upon the car. First with the cockatoo watching, we pulled
18:05
Speaker 3: him out of the car in a very smart tactic
18:08
Speaker 3: operation before he could actually brief Need Smith and Glenn
18:12
Speaker 3: Flack in the back of that van outside the council
18:15
Speaker 3: chambers that something was up. We pulled him out and
18:19
Speaker 3: I was quite surprised. He was very big mother and
18:22
Speaker 3: he was in fact the new South Wales state heavyweight
18:25
Speaker 3: boxing champion at the time, and we had to put
18:27
Speaker 3: some cuffs struggle together in.
18:29
Speaker 1: Order to put his hands beyond his back.
18:31
Speaker 3: At that point we discovered that he was actually sitting
18:33
Speaker 3: on a revolver when we pulled him out. Then we
18:35
Speaker 3: actually had to negotiate with the needed flak to come
18:37
Speaker 3: out with their hands up.
18:40
Speaker 4: Right.
18:40
Speaker 2: Exciting moment, absolutely, how do you celebrate those sort of
18:44
Speaker 2: moments back in the day, But it was obviously a
18:47
Speaker 2: lot of planning from your side. You're dealing with good
18:49
Speaker 2: crooks who were doing their due diligence. They were prepared
18:52
Speaker 2: to shoot it up with cops. How would you celebrate
18:55
Speaker 2: at the end of those sort of moments.
18:57
Speaker 3: Well, that day was twenty second of December, so it
18:59
Speaker 3: was in fact the Special Weapons and Operations called Christmas Party,
19:02
Speaker 3: so we actually was although it wasn't planned, we actually
19:05
Speaker 3: had a place to be in a place to celebrate.
19:07
Speaker 3: So it was a red letter day in so far
19:09
Speaker 3: as criminal investigation is concerned, because Ned was, in fact,
19:12
Speaker 3: you know, one of the what we considered to be
19:15
Speaker 3: one of the master criminals in a very bad guy
19:17
Speaker 3: great a off the streets.
19:19
Speaker 4: Indeed, and where did he run?
19:21
Speaker 2: He was obviously close to the top of the other
19:23
Speaker 2: characters that you dealt with along the way that you
19:25
Speaker 2: had respect for. I mean, that's a strange word to use,
19:28
Speaker 2: I guess, but in those situations there is a certain
19:31
Speaker 2: amount of regard for each other. Some of the crooks
19:34
Speaker 2: don't want to be go up against some formidable coppers.
19:36
Speaker 2: Was there the same sort of regard for some of
19:38
Speaker 2: these crooks.
19:39
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it was much like the cartoons he used
19:43
Speaker 3: to see where the sheep Dog and the coyat.
19:44
Speaker 1: He would that clock on.
19:46
Speaker 3: You know, there was a respect, Shane, but when they
19:48
Speaker 3: were on the clock doing a job, they were very
19:50
Speaker 3: dangerous criminals. Much like the movie which is one of
19:53
Speaker 3: my favorite movies, between the relationship between De Niro and Bacino,
19:57
Speaker 3: there is that respect, and you know, it's a respect
19:59
Speaker 3: which is earned. And one of those that I spoke
20:02
Speaker 3: about earlier, John Davison had that respect to the point
20:05
Speaker 3: that he would go around the criminal melium and he
20:09
Speaker 3: would talk to Purple and they would know that he
20:12
Speaker 3: was serious about what his intentions were as in the
20:15
Speaker 3: investigation of certain crimes, and basically, if he was after you,
20:20
Speaker 3: then he was.
20:21
Speaker 1: Likely to gets you.
20:23
Speaker 3: And in that case, I worked on an armored car
20:26
Speaker 3: task force with him back in nineteen ninety one and
20:29
Speaker 3: we actually had the criminals who are leaving the state
20:31
Speaker 3: to try and get away from him.
20:33
Speaker 2: Tell me how did your family deal with the risks
20:36
Speaker 2: that you were facing each day. We just had a
20:39
Speaker 2: terrible incident down here in Victoria, two police officers murdered,
20:43
Speaker 2: just doing a normal search warrant. But when you're going
20:46
Speaker 2: out into the field where you know these desperate crooks
20:49
Speaker 2: are looking for an opportunity and you're standing between them
20:53
Speaker 2: and the bag of money, how does your family deal
20:55
Speaker 2: with that?
20:57
Speaker 3: Well, it's obviously an issue, and like most cops, we
21:01
Speaker 3: experienced that isolation. You know, it's in fact something that
21:06
Speaker 3: members of you found me don't understand. So we try
21:08
Speaker 3: and stay at arm's length and try and maintain that
21:11
Speaker 3: brave face when there's potentially anxiety being caused, not necessarily
21:17
Speaker 3: facing the criminals on the street, but by things like
21:20
Speaker 3: high impact court cases, etc. So there is an anxiety
21:24
Speaker 3: which comes in the association of the pursuit of justice.
21:28
Speaker 1: It's one of those things.
21:29
Speaker 3: And I remember that I was in a criminal trial
21:33
Speaker 3: for a series of armed robberies upon banks where I
21:37
Speaker 3: had a criminal arrested. He was a jail list pert
21:39
Speaker 3: the time we found him hiding in the roof cavity
21:42
Speaker 3: of his mother's house. He virtually signed up on six
21:47
Speaker 3: separate records of interview for all the series of robberies.
21:51
Speaker 3: I think I had about twenty four signatures off him,
21:53
Speaker 3: bank photographs, et cetera. And then when we got to trial,
21:56
Speaker 3: he was found not guilty, and I thought to myself, well,
21:59
Speaker 3: you know, I was losing sleep over that court case.
22:01
Speaker 3: What could I possibly have done that would have made
22:04
Speaker 3: it easier? And the fact was I with a conclusion
22:07
Speaker 3: that there's nothing more that I could have done. It
22:09
Speaker 3: was up to the jury, and if the jury of
22:11
Speaker 3: his peers wanted him on the street, then they could
22:14
Speaker 3: deal with him. All I had to do is my
22:15
Speaker 3: piece of the justice puzzle, and they was to find
22:17
Speaker 3: the person. And he was no doubt the right person.
22:21
Speaker 3: But if he wasn't convicted, then that was not my problem.
22:23
Speaker 3: So basically the acceptance of those things, you know, me
22:26
Speaker 3: being sleepless over that issue became like a like old
22:30
Speaker 3: moment in my mind that I could actually fulfill my
22:33
Speaker 3: part but not be upset about the actual justice system
22:36
Speaker 3: if it wasn't delivered properly. When you do those sorts
22:39
Speaker 3: of things, you know there is an impact upon the
22:41
Speaker 3: family because you do become anxious and on tenderhooks with
22:45
Speaker 3: the rest of your family as well.
22:47
Speaker 2: Were there certain things you didn't want to share that
22:48
Speaker 2: you have to wait till your retirement to talk about.
22:52
Speaker 1: Look, it's probably part and parcel.
22:56
Speaker 3: The fact that you wouldn't share that with your family
22:59
Speaker 3: is because of the respect that you have for your family.
23:00
Speaker 1: You don't want them to be concerned.
23:02
Speaker 3: The guy was comfortable that I could handle myself on
23:04
Speaker 3: the street and not only with the crooks. And you know,
23:08
Speaker 3: whilst I was in the police and I resigned in
23:11
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight, I would carry a gun at all
23:13
Speaker 3: times because you know, there were people who I didn't
23:18
Speaker 3: consider to be friendly, whether they were robbers or in
23:22
Speaker 3: the organized crime fear where I ended up working. I
23:25
Speaker 3: carried a gun at all times just in case I
23:27
Speaker 3: needed to defend myself at some stage. But yeah, Look,
23:32
Speaker 3: that's why a lot of cops seek solace with other cops,
23:36
Speaker 3: because they understand what it's about.
23:40
Speaker 2: We saw a famous case in you South Wales of
23:42
Speaker 2: Michael Drury who was shot by Christopher Dael Flannery. So
23:45
Speaker 2: the story goes, Yes, I think that was a message
23:47
Speaker 2: to all your cohort of the kind of people you
23:51
Speaker 2: were dealing with.
23:52
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I know Michael quite well. You know, for
23:56
Speaker 3: him to survive that was a wonderful situation for us
23:59
Speaker 3: that we can have him still with us nowadays to
24:02
Speaker 3: tell the stories about what he did and how he
24:04
Speaker 3: did it, and how he survived and not only survived,
24:07
Speaker 3: but thrived obviously with significant mental and physical injuries. But yes,
24:12
Speaker 3: it's a good story to see how Nik is nowadays.
24:15
Speaker 2: But also indicative of I guess the war that was
24:18
Speaker 2: taking place at that time between the crooks and the
24:21
Speaker 2: cops and in the area of banks. You certainly weren't
24:24
Speaker 2: helped by the attitude of the banks, which were making
24:26
Speaker 2: a fortune back then and seemed reluctant to accept the
24:30
Speaker 2: risks that they're tellers in particular, were facing. I have
24:34
Speaker 2: a friend who was a bank teller who has robbed
24:36
Speaker 2: not once, but twice, looking up and seeing a shotgun
24:40
Speaker 2: in his face twice, and to this day he suffers
24:43
Speaker 2: PTSD from those occasions. What was going on with the banks?
24:47
Speaker 2: Why were they so slow to change their practices?
24:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I understand.
24:52
Speaker 3: You know, Look, I've met people who have been victimized
24:55
Speaker 3: by our robbery. You know, more than a dozen times
24:58
Speaker 3: and basically it becomes an acceptance for them. But banks
25:02
Speaker 3: in the seventies, eighties, and nine nineties had to be
25:06
Speaker 3: dragged kicking and screaming into the current day. So if
25:10
Speaker 3: you think back, it was nineteen sixty seven when the
25:13
Speaker 3: Armed hold Up Squad was formed in response to thirty
25:17
Speaker 3: five armed robberies happening that year. The public were so
25:19
Speaker 3: outraged and so with the government that you actually had
25:23
Speaker 3: them take the countermeasure of forming a dedicated.
25:26
Speaker 1: Squad of men to actually look after that type of crime.
25:30
Speaker 3: As it transpired, we ended up having over six thousand
25:33
Speaker 3: robberies a year into the nineties, and we actually had
25:37
Speaker 3: gone through a devolution of dedicated task forces at that
25:40
Speaker 3: stage to actually look into armed robbery. But the banks
25:43
Speaker 3: themselves had been born from facilities management. The security at
25:47
Speaker 3: the banks, they'd come from facilities management and real estate background,
25:52
Speaker 3: not in fact and understanding the type of critical incident
25:55
Speaker 3: that they were trying to manage, which was robbery. And
25:57
Speaker 3: every time you invided someone into the bank potentially as
26:00
Speaker 3: a robber, you were looking at really dangerous situations not
26:04
Speaker 3: only for your banks, but for the customers as a
26:07
Speaker 3: static target for a bank. They sit there on the
26:09
Speaker 3: street every day, open to members of the public and
26:12
Speaker 3: also members.
26:13
Speaker 1: Of the criminal fraternity.
26:14
Speaker 3: So to have open banks as encounters only it was
26:19
Speaker 3: just inviting these people in to see what they could
26:21
Speaker 3: actually achieve. And it was very, very dangerous all the time.
26:24
Speaker 3: You know, they would actually work to the point inside
26:28
Speaker 3: the banks where the staff would be so terrified of
26:30
Speaker 3: not following instructions that they would put themselves at physical
26:34
Speaker 3: risk from the bandits because they were doing exactly what
26:36
Speaker 3: the bandits had told them not to do, ie don't
26:40
Speaker 3: hit the alarms and don't hit the cameras. But the
26:42
Speaker 3: bank instructions were in the event of a robbery, you
26:45
Speaker 3: must activate the alarms and you must activate the cameras.
26:48
Speaker 3: So the relationship between the victimers the bank teller or
26:51
Speaker 3: the other numbers of bank tellers has become at a
26:54
Speaker 3: critical point right at that time because you're actually doing
26:57
Speaker 3: what they've told you not to do, so it creates
26:59
Speaker 3: you as the focus of the attack.
27:02
Speaker 1: And it was easy to work out.
27:03
Speaker 3: Because the banks had cleverly worked out that to alert
27:07
Speaker 3: the other people in the area if it was a
27:08
Speaker 3: discreet type of probably like a loaded note, that if
27:11
Speaker 3: you hit an alarm, we'd have a strange phone ring
27:14
Speaker 3: in the back of the building which would sound different,
27:16
Speaker 3: you know, so the bear that's do that, and they
27:18
Speaker 3: could also hear the thirty five mili black on white
27:21
Speaker 3: still cameras going firing off at the same time. So
27:27
Speaker 3: it actually created that problem in the relationship between the
27:30
Speaker 3: teller as the victim and the criminal who was not
27:33
Speaker 3: getting what he actually wanted by you working actively against them.
27:37
Speaker 3: One of the worst ones was the bank would tell
27:40
Speaker 3: you to hand over the small notes.
27:41
Speaker 1: First.
27:42
Speaker 3: He's saying give me the big notes, and you're saying,
27:45
Speaker 3: he's the ones and twos, and you're really pissing him
27:49
Speaker 3: off at that stage.
27:51
Speaker 2: So the bank's surprise, surprise, were thinking about money first.
27:53
Speaker 2: People Second, absolutely, what were there discussions between the police
27:58
Speaker 2: and the banks about these practices and how they were
28:00
Speaker 2: really their own worst enemies and they were putting their
28:02
Speaker 2: staff at risk.
28:04
Speaker 3: Yes, there was, there was always a forum which went
28:06
Speaker 3: on between the Australian Bankers Association and in particular the
28:10
Speaker 3: different banks, the different brand banks as well, so we
28:13
Speaker 3: always speak to them and basically at that stage, once
28:16
Speaker 3: we got to the point where not just the banks themselves.
28:20
Speaker 1: But it was like groundhog day.
28:21
Speaker 3: Every day we would go out and we talked to
28:23
Speaker 3: victims of arm robbery and it'd be the same critical
28:26
Speaker 3: elements of the offense. And what we came to understand
28:29
Speaker 3: at that stage is that, you know, whilst we did
28:32
Speaker 3: our criminal investigation, in order to put an end to
28:35
Speaker 3: the serial offender that was this particular bank robber or
28:38
Speaker 3: hotel robber, etc. We needed to actually get the message
28:41
Speaker 3: across to the victims or the potential victims, whether it's
28:44
Speaker 3: the corporate victims as in the banks, all the face
28:46
Speaker 3: to face victims of the arm robbery crime that this
28:49
Speaker 3: was a harm minimization system that we had to adopt
28:52
Speaker 3: through the use of body language and the use of
28:54
Speaker 3: verbal communication skills, that we would actually be able to
28:57
Speaker 3: get the best out of the relationship. That was a
29:00
Speaker 3: force relationship that we wanted to get out of as
29:03
Speaker 3: quickly as possible. It was like that McDonald's principle of
29:06
Speaker 3: would you like fries with that? Now get out of here.
29:09
Speaker 3: So that was where we dealt with the harm minimization
29:12
Speaker 3: strategies for victims of crime.
29:14
Speaker 2: Because you think about those tellers, they're just out of school,
29:18
Speaker 2: No experience. They're being faced with very tough, ruthless arm robbers,
29:23
Speaker 2: the banks giving them the wrong advice. Who would have
29:25
Speaker 2: been a bank teller back then, my goodness.
29:27
Speaker 3: I met many, many many bank tellers over the years,
29:30
Speaker 3: and I did know a couple personally through my other community.
29:35
Speaker 3: I wouldn't recommend, you know, it's quite an interesting situation.
29:40
Speaker 3: But once the banks tightened their security, the criminals were
29:43
Speaker 3: flashed out into different areas such as pubs and clubs,
29:47
Speaker 3: and if they were willing enough, and mind you, armed
29:50
Speaker 3: robbers are always willing, but if they're willing and skillful enough,
29:53
Speaker 3: they'd take on people like the armored car industry, which
29:55
Speaker 3: only asserts the fact that the criminals that you're going
29:58
Speaker 3: to get into that are people who were actually armed
30:00
Speaker 3: and prepared to use the firearms that they actually have
30:03
Speaker 3: in going up against armed CA cruise with their own firearms.
30:07
Speaker 2: When did you start to see the tide urn against
30:10
Speaker 2: the arm robbers.
30:11
Speaker 3: Well, I think that I don't study statistics much at
30:14
Speaker 3: the moment in relation to robbery, whether it be armed
30:16
Speaker 3: robbery or robbery with a firearm, or robbery real the
30:19
Speaker 3: weapon other than a firearm. But I think we're still
30:21
Speaker 3: doing around about fifteen hundred to two thousand a year
30:24
Speaker 3: in the state of New South Wales. But basically we're
30:26
Speaker 3: always going to have robbery, you know, and it may
30:29
Speaker 3: be robbery of John citizen on the street who gets
30:33
Speaker 3: smacked over their head for his Apple iPhone or whatever
30:36
Speaker 3: he carries, you know.
30:38
Speaker 1: Even on speculation.
30:39
Speaker 3: But the tide basically turned in armed robbery when cash
30:44
Speaker 3: flow started to remove. So the cash flow from these
30:47
Speaker 3: places and the upscilling of people like pubs and clubs
30:50
Speaker 3: in order to deal with cash flow saw them driven down.
30:53
Speaker 3: So it's not as if these criminals have actually gone
30:55
Speaker 3: out of business, but they actually may have gone into
30:57
Speaker 3: a different part of business and potentially drug dealing or fraud,
31:01
Speaker 3: et cetera, which has much less risk associated with it.
31:05
Speaker 3: Think it was the Godfather, the Mario Puzo who wrote
31:08
Speaker 3: that a man with a briefcase was still ten times
31:10
Speaker 3: as much as a man with a gun.
31:12
Speaker 2: We've also seen where the bulletproof shutters came in and
31:18
Speaker 2: that certainly added a lot of risk to the robbers
31:21
Speaker 2: then even killed a few of them back in the day.
31:23
Speaker 2: You probably recall a few of those incidents.
31:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember the first time I saw it was
31:29
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty five at the Cornwath Bank and a
31:31
Speaker 3: horse Straet at Bondi and we had an attempted robbery
31:35
Speaker 3: there with three Romanian criminals who went in masked out.
31:39
Speaker 3: Two went to go over the top of the counter
31:40
Speaker 3: and both got caught by the screen as it went up.
31:44
Speaker 1: Those screens go off like a gun.
31:46
Speaker 3: They pop up in I think it's about point eight
31:48
Speaker 3: of a second with two thousand pounds of force behind them,
31:51
Speaker 3: and they're ballistic, so they are a very strong deployment
31:55
Speaker 3: from the counter level. So in this case the two criminals,
31:59
Speaker 3: one got hung up by his arm and the other
32:01
Speaker 3: one got hit in the head and broke his jaw
32:03
Speaker 3: at the same time. So by the time we got there,
32:05
Speaker 3: the third offender had actually walked out back onto Hall
32:08
Speaker 3: Street and taken off, but the two that were there
32:10
Speaker 3: were still hum The bank staff left them there for
32:13
Speaker 3: us to actually come and deal with them, and rightly
32:16
Speaker 3: say more at the time that the bad guy that
32:18
Speaker 3: was caught with his left arm, he had actually had
32:22
Speaker 3: the gun on the counter side of the bank and
32:24
Speaker 3: was actually firing shots across at the bank staff telling
32:27
Speaker 3: him to let him down.
32:28
Speaker 1: So a very dangerous situation. I knew of another one up.
32:32
Speaker 3: On the North side of Sydney where the bad guy
32:35
Speaker 3: who got caught while the pneumatic screen was actually killed
32:38
Speaker 3: on the spot. So they do create that's that risk
32:41
Speaker 3: factor and that deterrent effect to looking for a different
32:44
Speaker 3: target like a bank that hadn't been fitted with ballistic
32:47
Speaker 3: sperience yet, or a different motus operandi where the band
32:51
Speaker 3: guys would actually look for a chick in the armor
32:54
Speaker 3: of the bank branch in particular or the bank brand
32:56
Speaker 3: in particular. So say, for instance, Kiosks or ATMs. You know,
33:03
Speaker 3: the delivery of cash to the ATMs will be serviced
33:05
Speaker 3: ATM's being serviced by a third party location who's actually
33:10
Speaker 3: recycling their own business cash through that ATM and back out.
33:14
Speaker 3: So it's an interesting situation. But it's like a game
33:17
Speaker 3: of chess. If you make a move to actually count
33:20
Speaker 3: the criminals, the criminals will make a counter move to
33:23
Speaker 3: actually make their opportunities.
33:26
Speaker 2: And remarkably enough, maybe it's because of Australia's background is
33:29
Speaker 2: a penal colony in the beginning, but there was a
33:31
Speaker 2: certain romanticizing of these figures. Was that frustrating to you?
33:36
Speaker 2: People like Raymond John Denning was suddenly a celebrity of
33:39
Speaker 2: the left if you like doing that sort of an
33:42
Speaker 2: interesting phenomenon for you.
33:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, I remember Ray Denning and I remember
33:47
Speaker 3: at the time where he came and placed his handprint
33:49
Speaker 3: on the front of the doors of the cob and
33:52
Speaker 3: did an actual interview I think it was with Current
33:54
Speaker 3: Affair or something like that. But he was a recipivvers
33:56
Speaker 3: arm robber and ultimately a jail escapee who managed to
34:00
Speaker 3: track down Peter melvil Schnitzeling or Russell Cox within like
34:04
Speaker 3: seven him being out and they came to grief down
34:07
Speaker 3: in Melbourne at the hands of the armed robbery squad
34:10
Speaker 3: where they were sprung doing a surveillance on an armed
34:12
Speaker 3: car crew. But go back to the Australian culture, and
34:15
Speaker 3: you know, everybody likes to have a fair go, and
34:18
Speaker 3: the culture of the Australian Alarican maybe an anti establishment
34:22
Speaker 3: type perspective. But in all the training that I've done
34:25
Speaker 3: with potential victims of crimes like armed robbery, I will
34:29
Speaker 3: ask them a question and say, as we start this,
34:32
Speaker 3: I just want to ask you something, you know, can
34:34
Speaker 3: you give me an Australian folk hero, and quite quickly
34:37
Speaker 3: everybody comes up with the same Australian folk hero and
34:39
Speaker 3: it never varies. It's always need Kelly. And I said,
34:43
Speaker 3: so you're a potential victim of an armed robbery, but
34:46
Speaker 3: in your mind, an Australian folk hero is an armed
34:49
Speaker 3: robber who shoots it out with police. You can see
34:52
Speaker 3: it's like a light bulb moment for them. We have
34:55
Speaker 3: this culture that accepts the fact that, you know, the
34:58
Speaker 3: Alarican or the criminal may be something that I'm not
35:01
Speaker 3: suggesting that we aspire to it, but we understand the fight.
35:04
Speaker 1: Again, it's injustice.
35:07
Speaker 2: It's kind of confusing, isn't it, because because the Kelly
35:09
Speaker 2: gang killed police in cold blood. Yes, and yet they
35:12
Speaker 2: are romanticized and these guys are comes to mind that
35:16
Speaker 2: the film butchcasting The Something's Kid, which was again about
35:19
Speaker 2: the end of an era in the wild West. There
35:21
Speaker 2: and Butchcasidy goes into the bank and they've got all
35:24
Speaker 2: these screens and security things and he says to the guard,
35:26
Speaker 2: he says, what.
35:27
Speaker 4: Happened to the old bank?
35:29
Speaker 2: People kept robbing it but it was beautiful, you know,
35:32
Speaker 2: And there was that sort of I think we grew
35:33
Speaker 2: up with that film maybe the media was partly to blame.
35:37
Speaker 4: Do you think that these guys were good.
35:39
Speaker 2: Copy and they were desperate and they were quite charismatic
35:41
Speaker 2: some of them.
35:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, you still see it now.
35:44
Speaker 3: It's not so much for romanticization of you know, even nowadays.
35:49
Speaker 1: You know, like I was reading.
35:53
Speaker 3: News media as in online papers in recent years, and
35:58
Speaker 3: they talk about these robberies being magnificent masterpieces of criminal conduct,
36:04
Speaker 3: and the reality is they're not. You know, there's a
36:08
Speaker 3: ton of front involved in these types of things in
36:10
Speaker 3: public spaces to actually go and attack an armored car crew.
36:13
Speaker 3: But the fact is that they're not particularly smart, they're
36:18
Speaker 3: not particularly cunning, and they all just revolve around that
36:22
Speaker 3: brazenness of being in this public place at the time,
36:25
Speaker 3: and they're very dangerous.
36:27
Speaker 1: You know. It's not the sort of thing that we
36:30
Speaker 1: should be trying to glorify as this guy is the worst.
36:33
Speaker 4: Yeah.
36:34
Speaker 2: Ray, Well, so I'm very glad that you worked hard.
36:37
Speaker 2: You thank you for your service, and you kept us
36:39
Speaker 2: safe in that period of time. And by nineteen ninety eight,
36:42
Speaker 2: I guess you were ready to finish up and do
36:44
Speaker 2: something else.
36:45
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I took the opportunity and the lead up
36:48
Speaker 3: to the Sydney Olympic Games to start my own security
36:52
Speaker 3: consultancy and that kept me going for the next twenty years.
36:56
Speaker 4: All right, well, thanks for your time today as a pleasure,
36:58
Speaker 4: nice to talk to you.
37:01
Speaker 2: Fantastic that's retired Detective Ray Lamby on the Golden are
37:05
Speaker 2: so called wasn't very golden for those who are having
37:07
Speaker 2: the guns shoved in their faces robberies. But if you've
37:11
Speaker 2: been a victim of crime or even a perpetrator, and
37:13
Speaker 2: you've got a story to share, please get in touch
37:15
Speaker 2: here with Adam Shann at Real Crime. You can send
37:18
Speaker 2: me an email at Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com.
37:21
Speaker 2: And if you've got any information that could solve past crimes,
37:24
Speaker 2: get in touch with Crime Stoppers one eight hundred, triple three,
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