Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of Underworld (4/4)

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Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of Underworld (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:22
None. A hamster with a blunt.
0:34
Penknife We're doing quicker, quicker.
0:40
Quicker hello, and welcome to Hamster with a blunt Penknife,
0:43
the Doctor Who Episode podcast commentary thing.
0:47
See, I messed it all up. I'm David Glaspie Pratt, and I'm
0:52
sitting with Joe talking about the final episode of Underworld,
0:57
and I believe you're about to dazzle me with a fact.
1:00
Yeah. Oh, well, I do have a fact, but
1:03
I've also found the point in the book that explains what they're
1:06
doing that's so important what what's occurring.
1:08
So the doctor was thinking aloud, if they process the rock,
1:12
they must take it into the ship somewhere through the crusher,
1:15
said Lila. That's what Nya said.
1:17
Anyway, through the crusher and into the ship, the doctor looked
1:21
up. There is another way in.
1:23
There has to be. And then basically they go in
1:25
the car so but when they get crushed.
1:29
And then they fall into the crusher, which they then they
1:32
then climb out of. Yes, to his horror, it tipped,
1:36
shooting the Doctor and Leela straight towards the Crusher.
1:40
That's the end of the chapter. He knew how to write at the end
1:42
of the chapter. He knew how to do a cliffhanger.
1:44
Oh boy, did he. The economy of his prose is is
1:47
phenomenal. No, no.
1:48
My fact was this. This episode had 11.6 million
1:52
viewers, and it's the second most watched episode of Doctor
1:55
Who of this entire year. I I did look at the ratings.
2:00
I forgot about that, but yet the people came to watch it.
2:05
People came back, more people came back.
2:08
Now, is it because they'd heard about, my goodness, there's this
2:11
incredibly fascinating experimental Doctor Who story.
2:14
We must watch it, or God, you need to go and take a look at
2:19
what they're doing now. As I've said to you many times
2:22
in this commentary, both explanations are possible.
2:27
But I mean. It's as good as Star Wars, you
2:30
know, lasers and all sorts. There's lasers, there's people
2:34
being heroic, there's lots of shouting.
2:37
But I think, I think audiences were, were they more forget?
2:40
I think, I'm sure the audience appreciation was not the lowest
2:46
they could have been. I think people just accepted
2:49
Doctor Who for what it was. I think Star Wars coming along,
2:52
once it arrived in the UK, that did change things.
2:56
But that's why when Doctor Who tried to compete with Star Wars,
3:00
it doesn't work. It's like you can't, you haven't
3:03
got the budget, you haven't got the technology.
3:05
I think that I'm sure there's a quote somewhere saying there's
3:07
nothing in Star Wars that we couldn't do here, but we just
3:12
need time and money. It's Matt Irving I.
3:15
Think that was it. Yeah, it sounds like one of
3:18
Matt, Matt Irving's lines because all the techniques that
3:21
they use we can do. But they've got, you know,
3:25
however long on a dedicated model sound stage, we've got a
3:29
corner of healing. And a shit ton of money.
3:32
We've got thruppance. And I think and also you've not
3:36
necessarily got sympathetic directors and producers because
3:39
there's the story. When they were making first
3:42
series of Blake 7, the special effects teams did a whole load
3:46
of stock shots of the Liberator kind of good quality.
3:49
But then some of the directors were going, no, no, no, I want
3:51
my own model shots. And that's why you get a
3:55
combination of some really nicely lit, proper model shots
3:58
and some overlit. I think there's like they use
4:01
the miniature in close up and it just looks terrible.
4:06
I don't want to be too mean about Blake Simon, because I do
4:08
genuinely love it. Although a tattia science
4:11
fiction show I cannot think of. But that sequence at the end of
4:15
Star One Cyharts going to kill me saying this, You know Dudley
4:19
Simpsons doing the music of death as the alien spaceships
4:24
emerge to take over and it's just a series of Colanders and
4:28
Saltspans coming. In what is probably my favorite
4:33
episode of the series. It is great.
4:36
It is. Oh, I did do.
4:39
They can't do Star Wars. They shouldn't try and do star.
4:42
Wars. And it's a real shame that then
4:45
with Aftermath, they open with the space wall, which is all
4:49
from stock footage, and it doesn't really make any sense.
4:54
So I did as a bit of a little project earlier this year.
4:58
It's like using just the same bits of stock footage from the
5:03
series. I have to share that again,
5:07
because it's like, can you act? Can you just make something a
5:09
little bit more coherent just using the same footage?
5:13
Can you say that? Yeah.
5:15
That was fabulous and it went down a tree.
5:18
I saw everyone commenting on that.
5:19
It was. A bit.
5:20
It was just one of those things. It was just a bit of fun because
5:22
I originally did a video where I went through all the where all
5:26
the original clips had come from because like, well, that was
5:30
from that episode. That was from that.
5:31
And it's quite fun, just stock footage spotting.
5:35
So yeah that if these randomly appear on, if people were saying
5:40
why is he sharing these all of a sudden because we have I'm
5:42
talking about it do that. I mean I'm talking about it.
5:44
I might do it later, but yeah, I think see there repeated footage
5:49
and everything. We're quite, yeah, the economy
5:50
repeated footage in Underworld we're quite harsh on.
5:55
But you know, the the most watched episode of Doctor Who
6:00
this year was episode 2. Oh, was it episode three, I
6:04
think episode 2 of Power of Crow.
6:06
So Norman Stewart scored the two highest rated episodes of Doctor
6:11
Who that year. And but I think that here it was
6:15
like between Christmas and New Year.
6:18
So it's that time where everyone's watching TV.
6:20
But I mean, let's give Norman Stewart his credit.
6:24
He may not have created the 2 greatest two stories, but he's
6:28
certainly got the people watching.
6:29
He got the bums on the seats. He.
6:31
He he's watching stories that other he's making stories that
6:33
other people are watching, and that's all a director wants.
6:37
Well then I've got another question I want to ask you
6:39
before we go into four and that is because you just said about
6:43
Kit, about the audience being begiving.
6:47
Do you think that kids at the time, like, can appreciate the
6:56
concepts of this, even if it's not sort of so dramatically
7:03
rendered on the screen? I'm not sure.
7:07
I think with child audiences, and I think back to when I was
7:13
growing up watching stuff, if as long as you're not being
7:17
patronised, I think you will get, you will give a lot of
7:21
leeway. I think back to a lot of the the
7:24
TV dramas that you know, the the CBBC stuff and that I watch and
7:29
clearly they were made for kids, but they never you never,
7:34
certainly at the time you never felt they were talking down to
7:36
you. And I think that's why Doctor
7:38
Who, when Doctor Who works, it's not talking down to its
7:40
audience. It's and it's it works well.
7:47
And I think whether or not the mythology stuff might have gone
7:49
over people's heads, yeah, I. Know.
7:52
Well, I think that's why there's that very explicit scene at the
7:55
end where the parallel between astronauts and Argonauts is
7:59
made. And I think, but if you didn't
8:03
know, we we said before we we know of the myths and legends
8:07
but we don't know the detail. It doesn't affect your enjoyment
8:09
of the story. But I think if they started to
8:13
labour really labour that anymore in terms of spelling it
8:16
out really specifically, you know the bit, there's a line at
8:21
the end where it's like maybe this is kind of where myths and
8:24
legends. Like that line?
8:26
Yeah, I do like that line. Is it, you know, Echo is from
8:30
the past and the future. That's a really nice idea that
8:33
maybe this has somehow echoed and influenced somehow.
8:37
Maybe this is where the myths and legends go.
8:39
So there's some nice there's there's, as I say, there's like
8:41
there's some really nice ideas at work.
8:45
Do you know, I think, I think on screen what kids expect or what
8:49
the audience expects is a good time.
8:51
Yeah, they so they want to see some colour, they want to see
8:53
some fun, they want to have some laughs and there was some
8:56
scares. And that's that's basically what
8:58
they're expecting. And alas, I don't think they're
9:01
getting any of that. We've underworld.
9:02
Unfortunately, don't think they are, I think.
9:04
Where they could be inspired by their ideas is Here is in the.
9:07
Book and I think that is why the target books have had the impact
9:13
that they have because people still talk about them.
9:15
They're back making them as well I think.
9:18
And the great thing, especially with because we've got three
9:23
young nephews and they're of that age where a couple of them
9:26
watching modern doctor and everything, it's like giving
9:30
them a birthday or Christmas going well.
9:31
Here's a David Tennant story that I know you like.
9:34
I don't you know you're you're working on reading.
9:39
Go and read one of these books whether.
9:41
Well, the question that their mum will say is like are they
9:43
suitable for kids, Like well, I hope so because the originals
9:47
were aimed at, you know, 1112 year olds.
9:50
But I know that the modern books are probably aimed at people
9:53
like us. Yeah.
9:54
So whether you know? Certainly something like Dalek
9:57
and things like that, which has those sort of very sadistic and
10:01
weird and wonderful back stories in it, yeah.
10:04
Yeah, I need to read more of those at some point.
10:06
By it I have. I have probably short attention
10:10
span with reading sometimes. So you know, should I have a
10:13
read a few chapters before bed now just to sit on my phone and
10:16
just tit around and do 2 inconsequence?
10:18
That's why I started the book club, you know, because I wasn't
10:20
reading and I wanted to start reading again.
10:22
So and it has got me enjoying reading again which is nice I.
10:25
I think it actually how I mean. I've now used that as a means to
10:28
start reading again, and admittedly reading Doctor in the
10:31
Underworld, Time Flight and then rounding off because I said I
10:35
would. I read Ghost Event Space.
10:37
What a triple bill. Which is a hideously bad book.
10:44
It is one of the lowest rated missing adventures and.
10:47
It is. I love Barry letters, but his
10:49
prose is something else. I I don't know whether or not
10:52
some of that prose is his or whether or not that's the sub
10:53
editors, because there's stuff in there which is just horrible.
10:59
Just. Walking right.
11:00
Coming. Coming to a future hamster book
11:02
club. The Ghost in Space.
11:05
We could have fun with that. I think there's always a thing
11:08
about it's like when picking a story, do we go for do you pick
11:11
something that's loved and really easy to talk about, or do
11:16
you have something kicking? Or do you try and find something
11:20
that people genuinely don't like?
11:22
Find something positive. Oh, these these sort of derided
11:30
Doctor Who stories. They're that by far the most
11:33
interesting ones to talk about. It's so much more interesting
11:35
talking about what goes wrong than what goes right.
11:39
And I think because so many people talk about, you know,
11:41
those top 10 classic stories, all the obvious ones going, is
11:46
there much more people would say we're going.
11:48
Yeah. Well Tom was very good in this
11:49
scene and Michael wishes doing greatest Avros and but actually
11:53
saying, well, let's look at what what James Maxwell's doing, what
11:57
Alan Laker's doing. You know, these are people who
11:59
don't get talked about in the same way because they're in a
12:02
story that was mostly forgotten. But actually they're doing not a
12:06
bad job. I will as much as you can get.
12:09
Before we skip into four, I will just say about the book.
12:13
I read the book in less time that it would take me to watch
12:17
the TV serial because there's 120 pages and it's very briskly
12:21
written and the story of Underworld came alive in an
12:27
unexpectedly exciting way. The ideas were it felt like the
12:32
ideas had a chance to breathe and flourish.
12:35
It felt like there was a lot of incident in there and it doesn't
12:38
in the TV show. I I genuinely think this is the
12:43
superior version of this and some of these Graham Williams
12:46
stories where you sort of you can make up the production value
12:50
in your head and he's just so adept at getting you from A to
12:56
B. Swiftly and excitingly.
12:59
There is. There really is something great
13:01
about these tiny. Books, yeah.
13:05
I think there's always that complaint of how they get.
13:07
They get very, very short and they're very, very, but actually
13:10
they are just telling a short story, telling it well, and
13:16
sometimes making up for some of the sort of deficiencies on
13:20
screen and being able to project the imagination that the
13:24
original scripts have. And I think there is a lot of
13:28
imagination in there. I'm just not sure it's realised
13:32
particularly and unfortunately we are now going to have to
13:35
watch the TV version rather than read the book.
13:38
We are. Would you care to count us into?
13:41
Observations so starting the final episode of Underworld in
13:45
54321. Well, I haven't even got to ask
13:51
you the question. I always ask everybody, is this
13:54
your favorite title sequence? It's probably my second.
13:59
I think the Trouton title sequence is probably my favorite
14:01
because that's probably one of my favorite eras, because that
14:03
was probably the one that really caught my imagination when I was
14:06
younger. So I love the the the Trouton
14:09
see Trouton title sequence proper that he got.
14:12
But this is, this is if it was a close second, It's a close
14:16
second because it's just so evocative and.
14:21
It it. Is almost timeless.
14:23
I know Jonathan Turner hated it and it probably did need
14:26
replacing after six years, but it stands up and the interesting
14:32
thing watching it on a you know the the non restored version is
14:36
you know it's got. That's what's kind of missing
14:38
sometimes when they replace title sequences with the
14:40
original film is that it's slightly the colour slightly
14:43
different or it's slightly offset.
14:45
All those sort of little imperfections that you know
14:49
these episodes have are kind of lost sometimes when they when
14:52
they go back and do some fixes. I mean, there's all that debate
14:56
of but the DVD and the Blu rays are far superior in every way,
14:59
but it's like they've taken out some of the the imperfections.
15:05
Or they highlight the imperfections sometimes because
15:08
the picture is so clear, you know, like I couldn't say that
15:11
before on the VHS. No.
15:14
And now and we're now coming up to.
15:19
It doesn't help that Tom Baker and Louis Jameson look very
15:23
pissed off in that car. They've probably been in and
15:26
because he falls over and it's it's it's so far away in the
15:30
shot it's not even clear. It's like he's he's.
15:32
Go on, do it. They're hanging in the crusher.
15:34
Hanging in the crusher and someone is clearly they're not
15:39
they're not able to get the shot done and someone's moving around
15:43
the set and Tom calls us something like will you just get
15:46
out of fucking shot. It's clearly in our mood and it
15:52
is. It is.
15:53
It is a glorious moment, but it just really.
15:58
It does feel like they're there for ages, that's all just
16:00
hanging, aren't they? They are.
16:02
And now they're back in this other cave.
16:05
And so that that whole sequence is just a bit past.
16:09
It's pointless. It's there to give a bit of a
16:11
clear fact. They've they've tried going in.
16:13
Oh oh, it hasn't worked. Back to The Cave and then they
16:16
just. The weird thing is they
16:18
basically find a vent and just sort of walk in.
16:23
It's so lazy, isn't. It and and then there's the
16:26
whole and the sword isn't really explained certainly on the TV if
16:31
if it's. Supposed to be the Sword of
16:32
Damocles? Is that the?
16:34
Idea. But then he uses it to open the
16:37
vault with the the race bank in. Oh, that's right.
16:42
Oh, they even go to the lengths of having the old double bluff.
16:46
Don't know the the race bank is a pair of bombs.
16:51
Yeah, episodes, yeah. And you've got the and this is
16:57
the bit where Tom, if again when you watch the studio, which is
17:00
Tom is actually doing probably more directing than the director
17:05
because he's kind of saying we no need to walk around this.
17:08
I think he swear he swears a lot.
17:10
I would, I don't think they'd ever do it, but I would love it
17:13
if they could release those studio tapes uncensored because
17:16
we can just hear it as as it was.
17:21
And here we are with God character and the robots again
17:27
that's not OK, so are they are they original crew of P7A?
17:31
Are they people that have been? Don't know.
17:33
Oh, you know, you were talking earlier on about reuse props.
17:37
The headset. The headset.
17:39
It's from Green Death. They've turned the turn the
17:41
lights off on the side. But he's just having a quick
17:44
short back and sides and and a blow dry.
17:47
He's sitting, he's straddling that seat slightly, but he's
17:53
given he's giving it a little bit of there's a performance
17:55
with a bit of life in there. There's there's some energy with
17:58
him, isn't there? Which isn't really anywhere else
18:01
apart. From Tom it is for Alan Lake.
18:04
It is a little bit restrained, but it is.
18:08
I get the feeling that he understands the assignments a
18:11
little bit more than maybe some of the others, but that's
18:13
because I think he claimed in one of the interviews that he
18:17
had down the doors and their son would watch Doctor Who.
18:20
So he was aware of what Doctor Who was, and therefore probably
18:25
got a better idea of what probably they were expecting
18:28
from it. You.
18:29
Remember earlier when I was talking about the rings of
18:31
accident? Yeah.
18:33
Oh, they're sort of men wearing masks that look a bit like those
18:35
in the rings of Act 10. I swear there is.
18:38
I can't remember. It's it's it's not an episode.
18:41
I unless I was watching the season seven through, it's
18:45
probably not one I'd pick off the shelf.
18:47
So I said to you, Rest now my warrior, That means nothing to
18:55
you. No, just if you go back to
18:56
singing the Lift music, I'll get that.
18:59
Well, you are classic Doctor Who fan.
19:02
And now they've they're in, they're in the piece of neat.
19:05
They found a hole in the wall and they've climbed in and
19:08
they're. Here, so explain the bait and
19:12
switch for me because eventually they put the bombs.
19:15
They oh, I see no way the sea gives the bombs to Jackson.
19:19
Is that right? Yeah, Herrick's got the, the,
19:22
the what he's told us the race bank, but actually they are
19:27
fishing grenades or whatever. But then the they have an
19:31
identical set of so the grenades are in flasks that are identical
19:37
to the race bank. Yes.
19:40
For reasons. Maybe the Oracle's done
19:45
something behind the scenes. Maybe it was all part of the
19:47
plan. We don't know.
19:48
And the Doctor secrets them back into the computer.
19:52
I think because he steals the genuine race bank and therefore
19:58
they were like you must return them.
19:59
So he hands them back and goes, Oh no, but those are the
20:01
grenades and they were like, don't you try and trick us.
20:05
So there's there's some clever little sort of double Bluffs and
20:08
stuff going on I. Think he's done better in Rebus
20:10
operation, you know, with the Jeff, Rick in the last scene?
20:13
Yeah. Because it's it's effectively
20:15
the same sort of thing. Trouble is an issue.
20:17
You haven't got anyone going. Oh, I'm stuff.
20:19
Is that nobody you can trust these days?
20:23
You know, like and then you get, you know, delve into the whole
20:26
morality thing. You know, the Doctor gives them,
20:28
basically gives them the bomb. Yeah, they take all the all the
20:34
trogs on the ship. Well, I.
20:35
Hope they've got them all. Oh yeah, there could be a load
20:38
in there. They the whole planet goes up,
20:40
doesn't it? The whole.
20:41
Ship, the whole planet goes up at the end, so all the all of
20:44
the guards and the the P7, E and anybody who didn't get off on
20:47
the R1C has been blown up. I've got to say that it's such
20:51
an enticing idea, the idea that all of these caves that we're
20:54
wandering around is effectively A spaceship that I've had all
20:59
what? Why are you laughing?
21:01
Alan Lake holding the race bank, walking slightly giddily toward
21:08
like he's he's been at the bar. Oh, he has.
21:11
And then then James Maxwell's holding them in.
21:17
I mean, are these people stupid? I mean, the guards have just let
21:20
them walk off with the race banks.
21:22
And they're stupid and they don't know how to hold them.
21:24
They're clearly like, I'm going to hold them by the top ginger
21:27
and I'm going to hold and it's like it just looks really
21:30
terrible. And then I think that it'd be
21:34
interesting to dig deeper in, like when they were doing some
21:37
of these bridge sets scenes, because obviously when they did
21:41
the rescue of the the the Trogs in Part 3, it's a bit ham
21:46
fisted. And then we've got this bit
21:48
coming up where he's doing something with the sword and the
21:52
Oracle's just saying stop him or whatever repeatedly.
21:56
And it's like there is no tension or drug.
22:00
There is a potential here you've got the doctor confronting A
22:03
megalomaniac machine and that is it, you know, and it's a set,
22:08
it's not CSO. This should be like a God's gift
22:11
to a director, a writer, the actors, to really do something
22:15
with this this scene. And is we did that last season
22:19
in face of evil a million times better than this.
22:23
And there's a couple of bits. Like when I was watching it,
22:26
it's like there's a point where I felt like the Oracle was
22:28
talking constantly in questions and then it started then
22:31
sometimes it doesn't. It's like it feels like they
22:34
were trying potentially where they're doing a thing where
22:36
Oracle is only speaking in questions, but then they get to
22:39
a bit of going, oh, it doesn't quite work so solid, let's just
22:42
not bother. But there's a lot of times where
22:44
it's the Oracle only talks in questions.
22:47
I do feel that this is the closest Tom gets to feeling
22:50
quite comfortable since episode one, where he's confronting the
22:53
computer and going well. You're just another megalomaniac
22:56
machine. It's probably the the strongest
22:59
scene of this this particular episode and he's again, he's
23:03
playing it fairly straight for him for for Tom at this year,
23:07
this, this period I. Do love the computer voice as
23:10
well. I think that's it's a it's a
23:12
woman isn't doing the voice. Yeah.
23:15
It's probably easy for Tom. He's on a set.
23:18
He's OK, he's reacting to a voice.
23:20
But it's probably more relatable than what they were having to
23:23
do. A few, you know, a week or so
23:24
earlier. And that's it.
23:26
Destroy, destroy, destroy. Just ad nauseam.
23:30
There's like, where are the guards?
23:33
Well, quiet, yeah, but Oh no, here they come.
23:35
Look. They're all running.
23:36
They're coming very, very slowly.
23:37
They've all got their gift masks on and they're running.
23:40
They've come from the Sex party and.
23:41
I've got a feeling we're going to have that same shot again of
23:44
them running through a corridor because, you know, we've.
23:47
Got We're going to pad this out, but there we go, there it is.
23:49
And. Then let's go through the very
23:53
convenient because it's Doctor Who.
23:55
We've got to have a we've got to have an air shaft or something.
24:00
That's where all the gas went. Earlier remember it's been set
24:02
up expertly by the script. And they would again, if they
24:08
just, I almost sometimes feel that the script needed another
24:12
pass. There's just certain things that
24:15
just either don't quite connect or don't quite work.
24:19
And I think because I know there was problems with Invasion of
24:23
Time needing rewritten. And there's all the script
24:27
problems that whether or not did this script maybe because it
24:30
became from Bob Baker Dave Martin who were reliable with
24:35
sorry the shot I've got here we've got we've got a nice close
24:38
up but actually quite a nicely framed shot It's like.
24:41
Not just again, well lit. And it's every now and again.
24:45
And I think if I remember right, when I watched this the other
24:48
day, yeah, we go slightly out of focus as we zoom in on the race
24:52
bank there. It's like, it's not quite, but
24:54
it's it's again, it's another example of oh solid, Oh yeah and
25:01
oh Tala. Oh, where's she been for three
25:03
episodes? She's just kind of been there.
25:07
I did go through, I dugout there's a transcript online and
25:11
I I sometimes do this going How many lines does each character
25:15
have in? You don't do this.
25:17
Do you do? It sometimes because there was
25:20
a. My respect for you has deepened.
25:22
Somebody said on one of the podcasts about whether or not
25:25
Hartnell's, you know, contributions in the, you know,
25:29
the third season, the decrease going well, how much the
25:31
dialogue has he been given is like does it go down?
25:34
Sort of does, but not as much as you would think.
25:37
But obviously it's like, well, Tom obviously, you know, gets
25:39
the majority of it, but actually Jackson gets more line
25:43
individual lines than Leela does.
25:46
That's only because in parts one and part four he has a lot of
25:50
calling out instructions on the bridge.
25:53
So to which they all respond, but Tyler has something like 25
25:57
lines. What in all four?
25:58
Episodes. What's the four episodes?
26:00
I don't even know. She actually has that dialogue
26:02
at the. 2nd And how the fuck did she get that news clip in saying
26:05
she was going to be the next companion on that 25 lines?
26:09
She does hardly anything. And yeah, and I'd say I'm
26:13
surprised because I thought Herrick would have, having
26:16
watched it, thinking, oh, he's going to be like, you know, the
26:18
second major guest star. And he, he doesn't have that
26:21
much. He only has something like 6565.
26:23
I've written it all down. I think, I think that makes his
26:26
performance seem more impressive than if he hasn't got many lines
26:29
and we remember him. And we remember because he's big
26:31
and he's bold and he's AI think also because knowing that the
26:36
bit about Alan Lake and his back story and a little bit more you
26:39
know because totally related my my husband was given as a which
26:47
the presents one given down adores his biography which was
26:50
written by their I think it's by their son and he was a very,
26:55
very troubled person in real life.
26:58
He was I think he was an alcoholic or recovering
27:00
alcoholic then went back on the alcohol and then ended up taking
27:05
his own life And you know it's a very tragic story.
27:09
So I think whenever I see him in things, it's always have that in
27:13
mind of this is somebody who had a very, very complex,
27:17
complicated, real, real life. But in this as well he's giving
27:24
a good performance and there's a really good bit.
27:27
I keep going back to the studio tapes because it's just such a
27:29
wonderful insight into it. There's a bit at the end where
27:34
they've taken off and the setting course of the future and
27:37
the dialogue is how how long to Minyas 2 and it's like 320
27:41
years. And he's having a debate with
27:43
the director and he's like, should I be reading this off a
27:47
screen and go, no, no, no, you know it.
27:48
He's like, well, how do I know it?
27:50
And they'll go, well, you've been doing this for 10,000
27:52
years, you should know it. And he's like, but so he's
27:56
clearly trying to say. He's trying to reason.
27:59
Why would I suddenly just know exactly how long it would take?
28:03
It's the sort of thing that Tom does, isn't it?
28:04
He's basically saying the kids are going to notice this shit.
28:07
We've got to get this right. And he actually could they come
28:09
up with a reasonable compromise where he just does a little
28:11
pause like he's kind of thinking about it or something.
28:15
So but it's the fact is he's he's not just coming in and
28:18
saying the lines have got. He's trying to reason out in
28:22
terms of my performance and how does this work and what's the
28:26
internal logic that's going on here as well.
28:28
So there's a sense behind these things that unlike, it's at
28:32
least trying to to to bring something to it.
28:37
You know you it was really interesting because I didn't
28:40
know all that back story about what happened in his life, but I
28:44
did recognise immediately that he was.
28:47
He had a bit of edge in his performance here that none of
28:50
the others did. And I think every time I've seen
28:52
him act in anything there's a bit of edge and that does
28:55
explain it. If he was having all of those
28:57
difficulties by the but the fact that he managed to channel it
29:00
into what he was doing creatively, I think that's quite
29:03
impressive. Again, we've got this, we've got
29:06
a scene here, the doctor's getting the cylinders back and
29:08
he's trying to do, he's almost doing a double or triple bluff.
29:10
I say no, no, no. These aren't the real cylinders
29:14
and there's an extra in the scene who is a one of those
29:17
extras who's always in it and I cannot remember his name.
29:20
It's point him out to me. He is the one just standing next
29:23
to the guard, not the one with the moustache the.
29:26
One with the moustache. I can't keep my eyes off him.
29:28
And there's a there's a little old lady looks like Anne
29:30
Whittaker there as well. Where where did I get these
29:34
people from? Well, extras not doing extra
29:39
acting. I mean, it's not not near as bad
29:40
as what we had in when they're reacting to the Skyfall in Part
29:45
2, where they're running around panicked.
29:47
But there's some, here they go, they're all running away.
29:50
Oh, my people, my people. The lady, there's a lady there
29:54
who's clearly been told she's got to run, but she can't run
29:56
too quickly. So she needs this kind of little
29:58
stifled thing because it's like, but again, and here they're
30:02
coming back with the cylinders and again, they're holding them.
30:05
You kind of wonder why not. They've been scripted to me,
30:06
maybe a bit. Grander.
30:08
How fucking thick is this computer?
30:09
I mean, they come on, you think she'd do a scan first?
30:13
So, well, look, we gave them a pair of bombs, so maybe we
30:16
should give this a little scan just in case they've given us
30:18
back the forms and. And and it's all a bit like, oh
30:20
oh it's it's so resignation of oh crap.
30:24
Doesn't she start ranting again in a second?
30:26
Get them out. Get them out or something like
30:27
that? She.
30:28
Tries and then this is one of those things where you just feel
30:32
they had more time. This could have been much more
30:34
dramatic, but it's. Think about the computers we've
30:36
had in the past as well. Like boss who had fabulous
30:39
personalities, this computer ain't got none of it.
30:44
And now we've got all the all of the extras assembled together.
30:49
It doesn't like quite a lot of people, actually.
30:51
Oh, look at her. She's not very daintedly going
30:55
past they've. Probably tried because I think
30:57
we're not. They've got cloth on the floors.
30:59
Like, don't trip on the floor. David, is that the entire Minion
31:03
people there from the P78I really hope so.
31:07
I mean of all of all this time and like they they've been
31:10
looking for them. That's the most amount of people
31:12
they've managed to drag, drag up.
31:15
And again, you've got the, you know, this could be a really big
31:17
dramatic scene where he's like, get him off the ship, but it's
31:20
like he's standing over there, far away in the second.
31:23
On the left, I can't take my eyes off her.
31:25
No, and she's. Doing some acting there.
31:27
She's acting and now we've got a nice bit, you know, a bit of
31:29
staging was like dragging him into shot because you know,
31:34
we're not, we haven't got to the camera, we're not going to cut
31:37
and I think because that's is it piece of my foot and everything
31:40
is like everything's in long shot.
31:42
Always. He has them all lined up,
31:44
doesn't he? And he looks so staged.
31:47
And and and this isn't quite there but it's this would you
31:50
know some some of these things would benefit with just some and
31:53
some classic. When we watched this on
31:55
Saturday, Chris was almost howling with like some of the
31:58
button acting that's going on, particularly Tala where she's
32:01
pressing the thing and it's like the sound effects don't match.
32:05
They clearly just press it. Just just touch the screen.
32:09
No. OK, some sexy model work.
32:12
Again, good model. And there's a there's a sure
32:15
there's a shot coming up when they're escaping the the nebula,
32:18
which is really nicely done. And here's some God characters
32:22
who, again, don't remember their names.
32:24
And they're about it's so. Obvious.
32:25
So in it he's got out not long now before they're blown to
32:27
bits. Oh please.
32:30
And then get rid of them, which again just repeats all the time.
32:34
Are not the cylinders. No shit, Sherlock.
32:37
Get rid of them. Get rid of them.
32:39
Because they're robots. They've got their heads covered,
32:43
so. What the fuck?
32:44
Does he pull them out? Just look at them.
32:46
Run to get to the nearest escape hatch.
32:49
Put them out. You can't then diffuse them.
32:53
It's like it it just one of those things of like a little
32:58
bit more work that could have been quite a a really kind of
33:00
realisation scene. But because we're not seeing any
33:03
something like Perk where he's like, there's no faces, there's
33:05
no eyes, there's no emotion in any of those scenes because it's
33:10
a robot under a mask. And you know, it's weird that
33:13
they introduce that that beam that pacifies people.
33:17
And it's nothing. No part of the plot at all, is
33:21
it? It's.
33:21
It's it's padding in part one. It's just to kind of stretch the
33:25
first episode out. But that should be like, what do
33:28
you call it? Oh God, what's it called when
33:30
you introduce someone? Chekhov's Chekhov's Empire.
33:34
Yeah, they should. They could have done something
33:35
with that. They could have used that as a
33:37
as a weapon to serve, you know, when they were trying to get
33:41
their way through the vents. And how do you explain the
33:43
guards on? When they were trying to get
33:46
back in when the crusher thing failed, just pacify all the
33:48
guards and go in the main door. And and unfortunate shot, he's
33:53
taking the cap off and it just looks.
33:58
A bit it. It's just a sort of really lame
34:00
1970s light. Oh, I do quite like the
34:03
explosion of the planet the. Explosion.
34:05
The exploding planet is quite good.
34:06
I think there was a reconstruction of Galaxy 4 that
34:09
I saw years ago. I I'm sure they used that shot
34:12
of the exploding planet at the end of that.
34:13
Story I feel like model work. Explosions just got better and
34:17
better. Do you remember the one at the
34:18
end of Horns of Nimon, where it's all in slow motion and
34:21
everything's flying in the air? Because they've shot, they've
34:23
done, I think they've shot that slow motion and they've for use
34:28
a proper model unit on it as well because there's that
34:31
difference between you know shooting on video because some
34:35
of the models shots in Horns of Nimon are shot on video.
34:38
This is this is a nice little almost Trout and heart and Lesk.
34:41
They're so happy and they're like, right, we're off.
34:43
And they just sort of sneak off and you've got goodbye Jason
34:48
kind of and then that's it. We don't care.
34:53
We don't know what happens to the P7 E crew, We just assume
34:56
they get back, all right. I mean it's never really
34:59
established in the TV store. I think the the book kind of
35:03
makes it, you know, it's not the biggest, you know, this ship is
35:05
decrepit and old and it's probably not the largest ship
35:08
ever. And now it's got for 320 years,
35:11
it's got all these trucks on it, like that's going to be quite
35:15
cramped. It's going to be very cramped
35:18
and I don't know, I just feel like we've gone on this whole
35:22
journey to try and find these people.
35:25
Couldn't, couldn't the doctor say, well actually this is where
35:27
they end up, you know, like he's obviously knows the future.
35:31
Or they could have done something to say, you know, I'm
35:33
going to do something. You know, the time laws are
35:36
responsible for this. I'm going to repay what we did
35:39
by getting you to mean yours to maybe a bit quicker or something
35:44
like that, you know, as kind of compensation or whatever for
35:49
what our people do. And there's a nice little cute
35:51
moment with canine at the end and that's it.
35:54
That's the end of Underworld. I mean that was what that
35:57
episode's what trend that's that's slightly longer that's
36:00
like 22 minutes but. 11 million people watch that.
36:05
And how many came back to see Invasion of Time Part One?
36:10
Well, I don't know. I don't think the ratings are
36:12
too bad for Invasion. Of time.
36:13
I think it's I, I I don't mind invasion of time.
36:15
I think Invasion of Time is another one where when you
36:18
really understand what's going on behind the scenes, it
36:22
explains a lot. And you you.
36:24
It's another ambitious story, isn't it?
36:27
Like it is trying to do a lot it.
36:29
Is trying to do a lot it it's trying to go let's do something
36:32
big and grand and I mean the story that because it was a
36:36
plate it was a last minute replacement for something that
36:39
was too big and too grand. So they clearly knew there was a
36:42
there was a level. I just think you know with some
36:47
if I always think if the Vardens have been slightly better
36:50
realised. Oh yeah, Jesus Christ.
36:52
The only thing more disappointing than those robots
36:55
in this being the reveal is the reveal of the Vardens.
36:58
And the thing when I was because when I read, I read the sort of
37:01
production history of Underworld in complete history and I
37:03
thought, oh, to read Invasion of Time.
37:04
And it's like, it's not tinfoil. It's actually a proper thing,
37:08
properly. It's a Welshman.
37:10
And it's like with the sound effect is that you put that
37:12
sound effect on that visual effect.
37:15
It's like somebody, someone must said this.
37:18
Is tinfoiled. It's another one, actually,
37:20
where the book is vastly superior because you do a lot of
37:24
the work in your head again, yeah.
37:26
I've I've I've got the book on Audible for the audiobook
37:29
version. I keep meaning to listen to it
37:32
because I'm not going to set up listening to them more than than
37:34
reading them, but I get too easily distracted with some with
37:39
with long audiobooks as well. I think that's why I perfect
37:42
podcast these days, because they're not.
37:44
They're nice and short and accessible.
37:45
Yeah, well, some of those ones, you know, I'll put them on to go
37:47
to sleep too sometimes. Sorry the hard people that are
37:50
reading those books out, but they're still going by the time
37:53
I wake up 8 hours later. I think sometimes that puts puts
37:57
me off and you go oh, because the normalization is 9 hours
38:00
long. Yeah, too much the Underworld
38:04
one isn't though. Well, the Underworld about 2 1/2
38:07
hours. Because I think the Romans one
38:09
is about two hours, because that's incredibly short, but
38:12
that's actually quite a fun one because it's all got different
38:14
readers in it as well. That's a.
38:15
Really. All those letters to different
38:18
people. That's really clear, and I think
38:20
that's sometimes with the novelizations they could just do
38:23
something with a bit of A twist. I think.
38:27
I don't think you could have done too many letters between
38:29
characters in Underworld, because they're not.
38:32
Doing letters EDAS to his to his father.
38:35
Yeah. Was it EDAS?
38:37
Oh, father, mother. Because they're like, they've
38:39
got a whole dead family. Yeah, which is.
38:41
They don't really do. They don't really do much about
38:43
it. They could have touched on it
38:44
really briefly and forget about it.
38:46
Again, Oh yeah, Russell would. Russell Davis would never write
38:49
this story because he would. He doesn't want to go to Planet
38:52
Zog. He made that perfectly clear.
38:54
But if he was, the focus would not be on the centers.
38:58
It would be on the people, wouldn't it?
39:01
It would be. If you were to do a story like
39:03
this, it would be. It wouldn't be the minions of
39:04
Mignos. It would be a human colony.
39:07
It would be a lost human colony and there'll be some extra
39:10
dimension to it, but. You know what, We might actually
39:13
care about them. And they might actually put a
39:16
bit of character into, I think they were, as we were saying
39:18
with Sun Makers and other story and things, image the Fendal as
39:22
well. They have these guest characters
39:24
who you care about when Thea Ransom is turned into Fendal
39:28
core, it's like, oh, I quite liked her and she's.
39:34
If anyone dares to threaten Mar Tyler, they've got me to answer
39:37
to, all right? So they can do it and they and
39:40
even in invasion of Time you know the likes of Rodan who are
39:45
enjoying. She's great though, isn't she?
39:48
Oh, you beastly savages. She's great fun.
39:51
I mean, there's not many other characters in who are.
39:53
I mean, the store is probably one of the best characters in
39:56
Doctor Who history. The Cockney Sontaran oh.
39:59
Good grief. Yeah, that.
40:03
That is a series of really bizarre decisions.
40:08
But that's another story. But I don't, I think.
40:12
Is Underworld the worst Tom Baker story?
40:17
Do you know what? I'm going to make a punt and say
40:21
yes, but what a fascinating story to talk about.
40:28
I mean, it's been far more interesting to talk about than
40:30
some of the others. And like the potential is there
40:35
because the book is great, so, so and it's excusable because of
40:43
the very detailed behind the scenes nightmare.
40:47
I think there's a lot of mitigating circumstances.
40:50
I think it it it, it comes low and I think probably deserves to
40:53
come low, but I don't actively dislike it.
40:59
I think, I think it was, there was a quote from great Graham
41:02
Williams, which was, you know, it was an experiment, but it was
41:04
a it was a failed experiment, but it was either experiment or
41:09
we just didn't broadcast the story at all.
41:12
So I'm pleased that they tried because it's the same sort of
41:17
ingenuity. Somebody put this out that you
41:20
know, John Nathan Turner would do, Show in the Galaxy, in the
41:25
car park and everyone loads. How great.
41:28
I wonder how creative. OK, they try to do something
41:31
similar here what didn't work, but it's like it's either that
41:35
or we pull the programme. And so better that than nothing,
41:40
because then we'd end up with the sharder potential, sharder
41:43
situation of either a cancelled or abandoned story.
41:45
And what on earth are those 11 million people going to watch
41:48
then? Can you imagine if they had only
41:50
shot half of this and we had to have the under everyone be
41:53
clamouring for another version of underworld?
41:56
The animated underworld? Actually, no.
41:58
It'd probably look incredible. The caves would look brilliant.
42:01
Maybe that's what they could do. Maybe that should be their
42:03
future project. Should just should we just
42:04
pretend all The Cave stuff has been like totally destroyed and
42:07
we just animate? To be honest with you, I'm
42:10
reliably informed. I think most people know this
42:13
now that this season may be the next Blu-ray set.
42:17
I'm wondering if they might this might be the one that they do
42:21
the special effects treatment on.
42:23
I was wondering whether or not they could do it.
42:25
I don't know. It's one of those things.
42:27
I think they'd have to basically cut out all of the the ACT if I
42:31
think it's technically possible, whether or not they've got the
42:33
time and the budget to do it. But I think in if they don't do
42:37
it now, probably in 5-10 years, it'll get to a point where
42:40
somebody will put a scene on YouTube where they've managed to
42:44
insert them into a more convincing looking cave, or done
42:49
something with it to make it look a bit better.
42:53
Well, don't you worry. I'm interviewing Chris Chapman
42:56
next week, so I shall pin him down and ask him the question.
43:00
I bet The thing is when that comes out I they can't top that
43:03
document. I think that is one of the best
43:05
behind the scenes because there's something to talk about
43:08
because some of the, some of the documentaries, all very well
43:10
made. But if you've basically well,
43:12
yeah, we came along, we came to the studio, we shot it.
43:14
It was all really quite nice and everyone went home and had a cup
43:16
of tea and went to. Bed boring those ones, aren't
43:18
they I. Think there's nothing really to
43:20
say with it because sometimes the you see people get a bit
43:22
upset because why isn't there a making of documentary for story
43:26
X? Possibly because there's.
43:28
It went well, you. Know like, you know, we we went
43:33
in, it went well, everyone had a good time.
43:35
The Trial of a Time Lord behind the scenes.
43:37
Documentaries are great as well for the same reason that because
43:40
the show was in chaos at the time.
43:42
And the same when on time in the Ronnie when they've got the kind
43:45
of the follow up to that, which is because it's almost like a
43:48
two-part. You've got the kind of the
43:49
column documentary that was on the season 23 set because the
43:52
over the sort of column Baker era documentary.
43:55
And then you follow up with the one time in the Ronnie and it's
43:58
like this is just a real example And I think that's why I'm more
44:02
forgiving to things like time in the Ronnie now because it's like
44:05
again this is the only script we've got that is anywhere near
44:10
workable. Was it the was it the right
44:13
script? Was it the right direction?
44:16
I unapologetically love Time of the Ronnie.
44:20
I've got to a point now where I do.
44:23
I went when when I got on video and everything like that.
44:26
I I went through phases of thinking, this is brilliant,
44:28
this is terrible. But I've now just got to a point
44:30
where I just do I enjoy it? Yes.
44:33
Do I enjoy it? Am I over the embarrassment of
44:35
it? Yes.
44:36
Bring on Kate O'Mara and shoulder pads.
44:40
How can you dislike something where you've got someone like
44:42
Kate O'Mara just going for it? Rowdy.
44:46
There's sort of spark of good in her.
44:49
I'm overwhelmed. Just in that exchange there.
44:53
There's more humor than there is an underworld.
44:55
There is, There is. There is no, there's no real
45:00
interesting character work going on.
45:01
I think you've got a couple of actors, James, Max.
45:04
I'm like trying to inject a bit of something like there's a
45:08
little bit in part one when Jackson's kind of telling the
45:10
story. And because even Chris said it
45:13
was like, oh, that's actually quite sad, you know, when he's
45:15
turned the back story, the minions, but that never comes
45:19
back. No and.
45:21
And it does. Feel like Read the book is the
45:24
the main model of the story. Oh, but oh wait, we haven't done
45:27
our three fabulous things. Our.
45:29
Three fabulous things. Good.
45:30
Great. I mean, I promise you you will
45:32
go to bed at some point. OK, well, let's knock them out
45:35
then. You first, then me.
45:37
Three things. OK, I'm going to start with
45:39
model work I knew. You were going to go with the
45:41
model. Work.
45:42
I'm going to go with model work because it's not just good for
45:45
this story, it's good for this era.
45:47
And there's some really ambitious things crashing into a
45:50
soft planet, the nebula, you know, they're trying to do
45:54
something a little bit Star Wars.
45:55
It was some tracking shots. It works.
45:58
It works really well. So yeah, the I think the model
46:02
work is some of the best of the 70s.
46:04
I'm going to go now then for something that doesn't work and
46:07
that is the CSO in the caves. But oh God, I just admire it so
46:12
much. The chats bar of actually giving
46:16
it a stab and pulling off some shots to an acceptable level
46:23
when they didn't really have the the facility to do that.
46:27
I think it was bold, A bold move to do that, to get this on the
46:31
screen, and I think it deserves recognition.
46:35
I I regret that was going to be my third one, so I'll have to
46:37
think about it. I'm going to, I'm going to pick
46:40
out on Lakers Herrick, because I think he's the only actor really
46:42
trying, apart from maybe Tom and Louise, but I think it's
46:47
somebody who he recognizes. I've got to bring something that
46:52
might not be on the page and gives it a little bit of life,
46:55
and it's probably the only guest performance that's really worth
46:58
watching because everyone else is so bland.
47:02
I'm going to say Louise Jameson as Leela, then for my second
47:06
one, because if there are moments of charm to finding
47:09
this, it's like you said, the bit where they go back in the
47:11
ship, look at each other, and then go out again kissing
47:15
canine. In the last scene, he's saved
47:17
many fathers. Oh, you're all laughing at me.
47:21
If there's sort of interesting character moments to find in
47:25
this and there aren't many, most of them are coming in her
47:28
direction. I think she's the heart of it.
47:30
She's the only one who's bringing a little bit of heart
47:31
and soul. In I can see why he begged her
47:33
to stay, you know, I mean, I felt Mary Tab was great in the
47:36
next season, but I can see why he didn't want her to go.
47:39
Yeah she I think she's doing a lot of with what she's given
47:43
because but certainly in the 2-3 or four she's not given a huge.
47:47
She gets a couple of nice scenes and some nice dialogue but
47:51
there's no for a story that involves revolution or rising
47:55
slaves that is that that should have been core Leela's story in
48:00
terms of you know, leading the the rebels to to revolt and
48:05
doesn't really happen. Because she does.
48:06
She just did it last week and she's going to do it next week.
48:11
So it just feels a bit and she they touched on it where she
48:13
could have said something like revolution but that's about as
48:15
close as they get. But she's not got.
48:18
But yeah she's she's always good.
48:19
I don't think she ever gives anything less than her best.
48:22
But the way she sort of gamely wobbles as she's going down that
48:25
lift shaft, even going. Down, even going down the lift
48:28
shaft on a standing on a, probably standing on a box on
48:31
some blue screen. She's trying.
48:34
Get me back to the fucking theatre now.
48:36
I don't want to be doing this anymore.
48:40
And oh, my last I'm going to, I'm going to pick Tom Baker, but
48:43
Tom Baker. I'm going to pick Tom Baker in
48:44
the behind the scenes, yes, because.
48:48
Angry Tom. Angry.
48:50
Because actually it does go to show is he is frustrated.
48:54
He's clearly either tired, he's grumpy, but if you didn't know
48:58
that and you're watching him in the store, that's not coming
49:02
across because it could be. There are times where he's
49:05
either been in other stories where he's bored or he's just
49:08
disengaged. And sometimes you can tell, but
49:11
I don't think you can really sense his frustration in his
49:14
performance. And it is also quite fun to
49:17
watch him getting bitchy and tetchy.
49:22
And I mean, it's probably not fun for the people working with
49:25
him. But now, 40 plus years on, 45
49:29
years on, it's quite fascinating to have this glimpse because we
49:34
don't have many studio tapes from this early on.
49:39
So it's a real glimpse behind the scenes.
49:42
And every now and again on those tapes you actually, they turn
49:45
the CSO off and you get to see what they're working with and
49:50
basically they're on Big Blue curtain, blue floor.
49:54
That's it. They have got, sometimes they've
49:56
got bits of set and stuff like that.
49:57
But the majority of the time there is nothing to react
50:00
against and now it's the norm now.
50:03
But then, no, I think it's no wonder they were struggling and
50:08
got tetchy. But yeah, I think Tom's always
50:10
worth watching. Yeah, and I think TomTom as
50:14
himself being Moody ass, is always worth watching.
50:19
This is why kids, you should buy the DVDs.
50:20
You get the extras. You don't get this on streaming.
50:23
No, honestly, you're you're doing your bit for physical
50:26
media here, aren't you? Buy.
50:28
Buy the. DVD because then it goes off
50:30
iPlayer. Then you can't complain.
50:33
Still available, folks. My last thing is going to be Bob
50:37
Baker and Dave Martin, then who I think through Terence Dix's
50:41
novel. You can see that there is a
50:44
solidly structured story here with massive ideas in it and
50:50
some exciting incident. We know that this didn't reach
50:56
the screen for all the reasons that we've detailed.
50:59
But I think as a script this is not without merit.
51:04
And I certainly think the way they think with ambitious ideas.
51:09
Too ambitious sometimes I I sometimes prefer it when Doctor
51:15
Who is an ambitious failure than an unambitious success.
51:22
Yeah, I think sometimes you want them to play it safe, but how
51:24
safe do you want them to play it?
51:26
Yeah. And you know we we talked about
51:28
Henchief earlier and I do think the Henchief stories obviously
51:31
they hold up as some of the best of classic who they are playing
51:35
it safe some of the time. I think this is and it's the
51:39
same with the the baronettes here as well.
51:41
I think there's there's there's a lot of Earthbound, and it
51:44
were. And you could say the same when
51:46
Russell C Davis came back because again it's all
51:50
Earthbound. It's all, it's a little bit
51:54
safer that way. But that's with good reason,
51:57
certainly in 2005, because it's like if we did go to planets, OG
52:00
or anything like that. People, that's what people are
52:03
expecting Doctor Who to be, therefore.
52:06
Can you imagine them putting out this in 2005?
52:10
I think it's something that the Williams era did probably more
52:14
than others, which is they did fewer stories with direct
52:18
connections to Earth. A lot of, because I think they
52:21
only go to Earth once in Season 16.
52:26
And I think there's no there's mostly other planets and other
52:30
cultures going on, and even even like Season 18, they barely do
52:36
anything to do with Earth at all.
52:37
The Gopalis, isn't it? And beginning at the leisure
52:39
hive, yeah. So I think there's, you know,
52:43
they're moving away from having those connections to, you know,
52:47
real world, real people. And it's kind of starting in
52:50
this season where it's like let's go out there because I
52:52
think I remember reading that Graham Williams and Anthony Reed
52:55
wanted to not do Earthbound. They wanted to go out there.
52:59
They wanted to explore the universe a bit more and that's
53:02
great. It's just that balance between
53:05
what can we get away with, what can we do?
53:08
And I think that's probably the difference is playing it safe
53:11
and being bold. It's like, is there a
53:13
potentially happy medium of we can do something creative but
53:18
within our limitations? The the best example of this I
53:22
think is something like Rebus operation where there are we're
53:25
going to go to this planet and Robert Holmes is going to write
53:27
a very detailed script with all of these customs and traditions.
53:30
So you really feel as if you're on a planet and we're going to
53:33
lead into what the BBC does best, which is historicals.
53:36
So we're going to set it all in catacombs, churches, you know,
53:40
staterooms and things like stuff we know that we can pull off.
53:44
And that, that's the thing. It's like when they do things
53:46
like Ghost Light, that works well because it's like, you
53:49
know, we can do some of this stuff.
53:51
I think it's that thing that something like Black Orchid
53:55
could have worked a lot better, had the script bit a bit tighter
53:59
because I don't mind Black Orchid, but it's like there's
54:02
not much of A story there by the 2nd.
54:03
Half. It's very loose, isn't it?
54:06
But it's a real shame, because it it looks really that one just
54:11
sounds terrible because they nobody thought maybe we
54:13
shouldn't have a radiophonic soundtrack.
54:16
I said that in the commentary I was like, what are they doing
54:20
with this electronic school? They just needed a piano.
54:23
And that and that would have been, you know, helped it in a
54:25
way. But I mean, I mean, nobody
54:29
really talks about Dudley's music.
54:30
I mean some people talk about Dudley Simpson's music, but
54:33
sometimes because it's so there, because when we say when we
54:38
watched it, Chris is, it's very Blake 7 this music and it's
54:42
like, well, it's actually it does sound it's it's there's a
54:47
lot of very similar sounding music and it's all good.
54:50
It all sells the story and actually that's probably one of
54:55
the strongest things this whole year is that there's a nice
54:58
through like of this. Of Dudley, Yeah.
55:01
Dudley Simpson music, which I think gives it that sort of
55:04
similar sort of how sound, but then sometimes it's quite nice
55:09
when you get somebody in to do something a bit different,
55:10
although the risk of that is you end up with a Crum horn.
55:14
A Crum Horn, or the saxophone Quartet, or that dreadful man
55:19
who did Terminus and Arc of Infinity, all that screeching
55:24
going on. Oh, I think Arc Infinity has
55:27
probably one of my least favorite soundtracks.
55:30
I think that's one that's becoming one of my bottom rated
55:33
stories is Arc of Infinity, because it's just what are you
55:36
trying to do with this launch story for your 20th season?
55:40
What's the actual plot here? What's going on?
55:44
Why are we in Amsterdam? James H from our book clubs, you
55:47
know, went on and defended that one rather well.
55:49
I thought as well. But it's still like, I still
55:52
don't like it. You.
55:54
Know. Yeah.
55:55
Sat and watched season 20. That's the first story.
55:57
I was like, oh, and then you get something snake dancers like,
56:01
yeah, that's now, let's say. That's the advantage of being
56:04
with somebody who's not got, you know, those entrenched fan
56:07
views. They look, it looks, it was much
56:09
more slightly more objectively and there is times when it's
56:12
like you just didn't. When we put finished Part 2 of
56:15
underwear just up to me, it's like, well that was shit.
56:19
It's like it is hard. Yes, yes, it was.
56:23
But what? But Connor was very
56:24
complimentary when we finished part one and actually said
56:27
because you know, you go in going, this is one of the worst
56:28
rated and everything. And then after saying, well that
56:31
wasn't bad, yeah. And so yeah, then you get to in
56:34
Part 2 and you go. Yeah, I just, I wouldn't have
56:36
been able to resist looking at him at that bit in Episode 2,
56:39
where they're going. Oh, he's going.
56:41
Down Yeah, that there's a there's a point where that is
56:45
that is a definite tipping point in the story.
56:47
The second they cut, it's almost like we're going to do the CSO
56:50
case sets. That first shot should be
56:53
brilliant and it is actually one of the worst.
56:56
And it's not only is it one of the worst, they use it twice in
56:59
quick succession. We should have been very gently
57:02
taken into those CSO shots and instead they dropped us from a
57:06
grey height. I mean, I did.
57:08
What they should have done is they should have crashed and
57:09
then gone. We shouldn't have met the trogs
57:12
until the characters did. Yeah, yeah, I'm a write a better
57:16
version of the story Well, and Terrace Dicks did as well.
57:19
Terrace Dicks is a great job. Well, David, look, where are we
57:22
going next? I don't know.
57:25
Fabulous conversation. We've just managed to talk about
57:27
Underworld for three hours. We have.
57:30
I mean don't think anyone's ever done that before but I think we
57:34
we were toying with Modern. But then we also, because you
57:37
you said we kind of like sent some classics over and I think I
57:39
said myth makers as well because you know, oh.
57:41
Yes, no, let's do the myth makers.
57:44
Because it's it's one I always really love when I listen to it
57:47
and then I sort of forget it exists.
57:48
What? It doesn't exist.
57:49
I I I really like it. I I've got a lot of time for it.
57:52
It's certainly one. If we just got an episode back,
57:56
I think a lot of people will talk about it because there's a
57:59
lot of, if you want a story with humour and character and
58:02
everything, There is so much of it in there and that and that's
58:06
the story that's definitely trying to do something, but it
58:11
let's talk about something that doesn't exist.
58:13
Yeah, and I have done a few of those.
58:15
It's not as hard as you might think with the reconstructions.
58:19
Oh, fabulous. Let's do it.
58:21
Well, let's go from the P7 E to ancient Troy.
58:25
More myths? More more myths.
58:27
Yes. Yeah, you've got a theme going
58:29
on here. There's a.
58:30
Theme going on here. We might have to go to Holland
58:32
and I'm on next, you know, more myths.
58:35
But until then, thank you very much.
58:38
It was very bold of you to take on this, this project and it was
58:43
wonderful. So thank you very much.
58:44
Thank. You very much.