Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / Healthcare's AI Operating System | AI Won't Replace Your Doctor. Here's What It Will Do Instead.

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Healthcare's AI Operating System | AI Won't Replace Your Doctor. Here's What It Will Do Instead. · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

• 0:00
  Your doctor's spending more time typing than healing, and that's
• 0:03
  killing people. Think about it.
• 0:05
  You get maybe 13 minutes with your physician.
• 0:07
  Half of that they're staring at the screen or filling out forms
• 0:10
  or entering codes, checking boxes.
• 0:12
  Can't AI give us those minutes back?
• 0:14
  What if the moment you walked into the exam room, your doctor
• 0:17
  already knew your full story and could actually look you in the
• 0:20
  eye? Healthcare is drowning in
• 0:22
  documentation. Clinicians became data clerks.
• 0:25
  81% of doctors don't even recommend the profession to
• 0:28
  their own kids. That burnout is a a billion
• 0:30
  dollar white space and the builders who treat presents as
• 0:33
  the product are going to win. What if the most valuable thing
• 0:36
  you could build is in the feature is giving someone their
• 0:39
  time back? What would that be worth in your
• 0:41
  industry? Welcome to AI for founders.
• 0:43
  I'm Ryan Estes. Today I sat down with Punit
• 0:46
  Singh, Sony, founder of Suki. The Ambient Clinical
• 0:49
  Intelligence platform quietly becoming the operating system of
• 0:53
  modern medicine in partnerships with Zoom.
• 0:55
  Optum, Athena, and more. This is the one for founders who
• 0:59
  want to see how AI infrastructure gets built in the
• 1:01
  hardest, most regulated industries on Earth.
• 1:04
  And if you want frameworks like this in your inbox every week,
• 1:07
  head to AI for founders.co. It's the podcast newsletter
• 1:10
  where we break down the moves behind the biggest AI companies
• 1:13
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• 1:19
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  And if this episode hit different, leave us a review.
• 1:24
  It's the founders version of Standing Ovation and it cost you
• 1:27
  exactly nothing. And I would really appreciate
• 1:29
  it. Moody, welcome to the show.
• 1:34
  Thank you so much for joining me.
• 1:36
  Pleasure to be here, thanks for having me.
• 1:38
  For set, it's my pleasure. I'm very excited to have a
• 1:41
  conversation about healthcare and AI.
• 1:44
  You know, this is an ongoing theme within this show largely
• 1:48
  based on how many cool new innovations are coming, both for
• 1:52
  for patients, for clinicians, for administration.
• 1:55
  So I'm really excited about your company, Sookie.
• 1:58
  So if you would just give us an introduction and overview of
• 2:01
  what Sookie does and who it does it for?
• 2:03
  Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it
• 2:05
  probably starts a little bit from my background.
• 2:11
  You know, I've no experience in healthcare whatsoever.
• 2:14
  I only started working in this when I started building this
• 2:17
  company. And when I was looking in from
• 2:20
  outside, I was looking at what we were doing to our clinicians
• 2:25
  and it, it was interesting to see how much administrative
• 2:29
  burden we had put on them. It kind of felt like if I had
• 2:34
  AVP of engineering in, in Google and I told them that for every
• 2:39
  line of code they wrote, they need to write a comment and I
• 2:43
  would pay them based on how many comments they wrote.
• 2:45
  And if the by the way, the code broke, then we will sue them.
• 2:50
  Felt like a pretty big mess from my perspective on how we were
• 2:53
  treating these folks. And and so then the question was
• 2:59
  what could actually help change things And some of the work that
• 3:03
  was going on in Frontier AI, especially with now, now they
• 3:06
  call them large language models and stuff, it's clear that some
• 3:10
  of these workflows could be automated.
• 3:13
  And so the mission of Sookie is to bring presence back to
• 3:17
  healthcare. And we want to do that by, you
• 3:22
  know, if he can do that, we have a patient be able to connect
• 3:25
  with their doctor at a human level.
• 3:28
  Therefore, there to be mutual empathy and for them to actually
• 3:31
  do the things that they came in there, which is healthcare and
• 3:33
  not necessarily all the administrative work around it.
• 3:35
  And so bringing presence back to healthcare by building what we
• 3:40
  call ambient clinical intelligence is the mission of
• 3:44
  Sookie. We do that through an
• 3:47
  application called Sookie app, which we sell to health systems
• 3:51
  who deploy to their doctors and nurses and others.
• 3:54
  We also do that through the ambient clinical intelligence
• 3:57
  platform that we give to other healthcare companies who build
• 4:00
  their own versions of the Sookie app.
• 4:02
  And so that's basically what Sookie does.
• 4:04
  It brings presence back to healthcare by building ambient
• 4:06
  clinical intelligence. Ambient clinical intelligence.
• 4:10
  I'd love to dive deeper into that, you know, but just to kind
• 4:12
  of underline the problem, you know, speaking to another
• 4:15
  founder, it's on average a patient spends about 13 minutes
• 4:22
  with their doctor at any given session.
• 4:24
  You know, and largely to your point, it's like a lot of
• 4:28
  administrative, you know, the, the nurse always got the
• 4:30
  clipboard. They're asking the same
• 4:31
  questions every single time. It's, it's kind of, it's taxing,
• 4:37
  you know, so it, it and, and ultimately what, what doctors
• 4:41
  want and what patients want is they want more time.
• 4:43
  You know, as a, a patient myself kind of getting reintegrated
• 4:47
  into the medical system, largely because I'm more of like a
• 4:50
  hippie type. You know, I was like, give me a
• 4:52
  nutritionist, you know, give me a couple crystals to rub
• 4:55
  together and I'll do some meditation.
• 4:57
  I'll call it good. But you know, you start to get a
• 5:00
  little bit older and it's like, OK, well, I want to make sure
• 5:02
  that my numbers are right. So you start getting blood work,
• 5:04
  you start doing all these things and having more interactions and
• 5:07
  you realize that like that's where kind of the friction is.
• 5:09
  It's like, I want more time with my doctor so they have a
• 5:12
  personal relationship with me and they understand my nuance
• 5:15
  and my crazy attributes or whatever, and I get to know them
• 5:19
  and I can build trust that way. And that's exactly what the
• 5:21
  doctors want too. But there seems to be a lot of
• 5:24
  this administrative kind of a mess in the middle.
• 5:27
  So if we're talking about ambient clinical intelligence,
• 5:31
  what exactly is that? Yeah.
• 5:33
  I mean, we have taken one of the more sophisticated professions
• 5:39
  in this country and created data clerks out of them, you know,
• 5:43
  and that's not why they actually went to medical school.
• 5:48
  Now, ambient clinical intelligence is basically
• 5:52
  comprised of four different arcs.
• 5:54
  Arc 1 is clinical documentation what happened in the encounter.
• 5:59
  Arc 2 is assisted revenue cycle. How can I extract financial
• 6:04
  information from it so that the doctor can get paid and the
• 6:07
  system can get paid? R3 is clinical reasoning.
• 6:11
  How do I, based on the context of the patient and the doctor,
• 6:14
  provide information back to them that's contextual, that helps
• 6:17
  them practice medicine better? And then Arc 4 is clinical
• 6:21
  operations. How do you then take this
• 6:24
  artefact, the output of their encounter and automatically run
• 6:27
  agents on top of it so that they can do the things that had to
• 6:30
  happen as a result of that encounter, hence streamlining
• 6:34
  everything. So clinical documentation,
• 6:37
  assisted revenue cycle, clinical reasoning, clinical operations,
• 6:40
  all four together create this amorphous concept called ambient
• 6:46
  clinical intelligence, which I think by the way, every
• 6:51
  hospital, health system, group clinic doctor in the world will
• 6:55
  adopt. And every single healthcare tech
• 6:59
  product, every smart bed, every EHR, every telehealth company,
• 7:03
  every virtual nursing company, every single one of these will
• 7:06
  integrate. So in effect, it's going to
• 7:09
  become pretty much a part of the stack of healthcare.
• 7:11
  Yeah, makes a lot of sense for a lot of reason.
• 7:14
  I mean, largely because this country is so litigious.
• 7:17
  You know, just for like kind of a CYA, the doctors, like a man,
• 7:21
  we got ambient intelligence that records everything.
• 7:23
  So we, we can say what's what because we can run it back, you
• 7:28
  know. So are we talking about this as
• 7:29
  a device? Is it hardware plus software?
• 7:32
  Is it an application that's like listening kind of what?
• 7:35
  How does it gather data? Yeah.
• 7:37
  I mean, I mean clinical intelligence.
• 7:39
  I mean, the best way to understand Zuki is think of it
• 7:43
  like Google built Android and the Pixel phone was the best
• 7:49
  version of Android, the reference set of what Android is
• 7:52
  and then the Samsung's, the Motorola's, the one pluses.
• 7:55
  And all these people actually use Android to build their own
• 7:58
  phones that they actually sell. That creates A footprint.
• 8:01
  Sookie builds ACI, Ambient clinical intelligence.
• 8:05
  The Sookie app is the best version of ACI.
• 8:08
  We deploy that directly into health systems so that doctors
• 8:11
  can use it and learn how they actually we can make them
• 8:14
  happier. Other companies like Athenas and
• 8:18
  Medens and G Gastros and you know, and the Optums and all of
• 8:23
  these other people in the country Zoom, they all use ACI
• 8:27
  to build their own versions of these metrical intelligence apps
• 8:31
  that they deploy. So that's the structure in which
• 8:34
  we we, we do stuff. We build Suki app and learn how
• 8:39
  to build ACI. We give it to the rest of the
• 8:41
  world so they can they can provide it to everybody else.
• 8:44
  So how does it actually work? At the end of the day, just an
• 8:47
  application. You know, the key thing with AI
• 8:51
  is you have to make it super simple for people to use and
• 8:54
  very accessible. So there's no hardware.
• 8:57
  You don't need a custom device. You just download the
• 9:00
  application. Sookie, you log in and you
• 9:03
  basically just say pay attention.
• 9:05
  And then you know, Ryan is talking to doctor, Sony and
• 9:10
  Sookie will pay attention. It will create a clinically
• 9:13
  accurate note that represents the conversation, extracts the
• 9:16
  orders and sets them up for prescription.
• 9:19
  Put the problems in the right places, diagnose it, put the
• 9:23
  right words under it so that everybody knows what the doctor
• 9:26
  diagnosed. Attaches the ICD 10 codes next
• 9:29
  to it so that it goes to the claim processing.
• 9:32
  Provides a summary of Ryan to Puneet before he walks in so he
• 9:36
  knows who is actually going to treat, and then provides
• 9:38
  information to Doctor Sony in the room so that he can treat
• 9:43
  Ryan better. All of this just a simple
• 9:45
  application that is basically almost like an assistant working
• 9:49
  for you while you actually do what you're trained to do, which
• 9:51
  is clinical care. Amazing.
• 9:53
  So it's kind of like connective tissue between all the the
• 9:57
  stakeholders, you know? Yeah.
• 9:59
  I mean, look, the interesting thing is if you look at the, if
• 10:03
  you look at the software development in healthcare, it is
• 10:06
  basically a mishmash of rules and regulations driving it.
• 10:14
  Think about what the EHR looks like.
• 10:16
  Think about all the things people do and all these codes
• 10:18
  that are extracted, etcetera. They are just basically a
• 10:21
  collection of all the rules and regulations that we created to
• 10:24
  create structure to a clinical encounter.
• 10:27
  But in real life, humans just talk to people that you know,
• 10:32
  you, you walk in, you want to know who you're seeing, so you
• 10:35
  want to get some refresher on the patient's history.
• 10:39
  You walk in, you talk to the patient, you basically figure
• 10:43
  out what the diagnosis is. You end up actually attaching
• 10:45
  the, the, you know, setting up some orders and then you
• 10:50
  basically walk out. And sometimes once in a while
• 10:53
  you ask questions like, hey, it's 44 year old, he's got
• 10:56
  hyperkalemia. What's the key protocol for
• 10:58
  that? All of this are not rules and
• 11:01
  regulations. They're human interactions.
• 11:03
  And So what if you actually had an AI that you could keep with
• 11:06
  you that would just give you the right information and extract
• 11:09
  the right information as you were doing those things?
• 11:13
  That's what the product is. It's not an EHR.
• 11:16
  It's not a collection of rules and regulations.
• 11:19
  It's basically just an assistant that actually helps the doctor
• 11:24
  ambiently so that they can practice clinical care.
• 11:27
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• 11:31
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• 11:36
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• 11:39
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• 11:42
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• 11:45
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• 11:48
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• 11:57
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• 12:00
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• 12:10
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• 12:14
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• 12:16
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• 12:19
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• 12:21
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  I love it. Is there actual kind of direct
• 13:33
  client access or this is strictly working with the
• 13:36
  clinicians? Well, we end up actually mostly
• 13:39
  working with large health systems who then will deploy it
• 13:43
  to their doctors. Yeah.
• 13:44
  So at the end of the day, then it becomes a 2 pronged sales
• 13:49
  cycle on this end on Sookie for clinicians.
• 13:52
  And we have a sales team that sells to health systems and a
• 13:55
  customer success team that actually works with the IT of
• 13:58
  the health system and also deploys to the doctors because
• 14:02
  you want the doctors to adopt AI and use them and learn how to
• 14:05
  actually engage with them on the Sookie for partners.
• 14:08
  And we have a ACI platform. We have a sales team that sells
• 14:12
  to large healthcare companies who will, like Zoom, incorporate
• 14:16
  that into their products so that when you do a telehealth visit
• 14:19
  on Zoom, the note that automatically being written is
• 14:22
  actually powered by Sookie. Amazing.
• 14:26
  I love it, you know, and it let's kind of outline some of
• 14:29
  the problems for clinicians because I'm very sensitive to
• 14:31
  them. Like I was telling you before, I
• 14:33
  got a bunch of buddies that are doctors and sometimes I'm a
• 14:37
  little harsh on them. So I'm coming to their defense
• 14:39
  today. You know, it's it's challenging
• 14:42
  for clinicians right now for several reasons.
• 14:45
  One, I think the trust between a patient and doctor is never been
• 14:48
  lower. You know, there's so much
• 14:50
  information and misinformation and Google MD's out there for
• 14:56
  and people with, you know, addictions and different things
• 15:00
  like like clinicians, doctors really have to deal with a lot
• 15:03
  of just kind of like building trust with their clients.
• 15:06
  You know, now you have AI added on to that where people are
• 15:10
  coming into their appointments and they've already made their
• 15:13
  own diagnosis. They've they're coming in asking
• 15:16
  very pointed questions. I saw a doctor on TikTok that
• 15:19
  was talking about this and they're, you know, he basically
• 15:22
  done a whole research on, you know, on Claude and came to the
• 15:26
  doctor and it's like, Hey, how many people have been diagnosed
• 15:28
  with this in the last 12 months? And like all these very pointed
• 15:31
  question. He's like, frankly, I don't
• 15:32
  know, I'd have to do some research, but like, they're kind
• 15:35
  of putting you on the spot. So it's really the faster that
• 15:38
  doctors can kind of keep up with, with their patients.
• 15:41
  Some of us who are like pretty advanced with at least using
• 15:44
  some kind of LLMS to our advantage, they they kind of
• 15:47
  have to be able to speak that language in order to kind of
• 15:50
  meet us into the future. Yeah, I mean the, you know, I'll
• 15:56
  say this with caution because I'm not a clinician, but I am a
• 16:01
  technologist. And I will say that the future
• 16:05
  medical student needs to be a student of medicine and AI both.
• 16:12
  You cannot just be student of 1. You have to actually be able to
• 16:15
  learn how to use AI as a tool and combine that with your human
• 16:21
  knowledge of of clinical to actually figure out what that
• 16:25
  what that combined skill set would look like.
• 16:30
  That is the future doctor that the doctor they're, I mean, they
• 16:33
  will have to teach AI classes to medical students in medical
• 16:38
  school and how they use them, what do they do, what's the way
• 16:41
  to actually get the best out of it, etcetera.
• 16:43
  So that's one comment, which is that's inevitable.
• 16:46
  The second comment I'll have is that I think we have to
• 16:49
  understand and put ourselves in the position of the patients
• 16:51
  too. What's happening with the AI
• 16:55
  revolution is that there's a lot of data that is in our hands
• 16:59
  that a lot a majority of the data looks suspiciously correct.
• 17:05
  And when it doesn't, it obviously has huge
• 17:09
  ramifications. But the answer to that isn't
• 17:12
  that people will not use these tools to actually work on their
• 17:16
  diagnosis. You may be a doctor, but if I
• 17:19
  have a problem, I literally have, I am the one who has the
• 17:23
  problem. I should be the one who should
• 17:25
  actually spend a lot of time understanding what to do with
• 17:28
  all the things that are disposable this at my disposal.
• 17:31
  So the then what is the role of a clinician?
• 17:34
  The role of a clinician in that world becomes a role of a guide,
• 17:40
  somebody who actually will take responsibility for you in spite
• 17:44
  of the fact that sometimes you might actually go off in
• 17:46
  different directions based on what you actually research and
• 17:49
  are able to use the tools at their disposal to actually
• 17:51
  provide coherence and a plan that actually makes sense for
• 17:56
  you to get treated. That is an interesting role and
• 18:00
  a slightly different role from the prior world of clinicians
• 18:03
  where they were like gods. Nobody else knew anything about
• 18:07
  what they were doing. We would walk into the room and
• 18:08
  just have to listen to them, regardless of whether we could
• 18:13
  understand it or not. That's not the world we are
• 18:15
  walking into with the new AI generation, savvy generation
• 18:18
  that's coming in. So I think clinicians have a lot
• 18:23
  of different complications. The administrative burden is
• 18:26
  real, the burnout is real. It's a tough profession.
• 18:30
  I actually also think you can have that and solve it with AI,
• 18:35
  not by giving them tools that make them more productive, but
• 18:38
  also by enabling and educating them to use it in such a way
• 18:42
  that they can practice medicine better.
• 18:44
  And that combination is actually where companies like Suki will
• 18:48
  show up. We are actually at the cusp of
• 18:51
  technology and clinical science and it is our job to actually
• 18:56
  help in some ways deny, derive the the next generation of what
• 19:02
  medicine would look like. It would help from these
• 19:04
  clinicians who are obviously at the front end of it and AI which
• 19:08
  is at the back end of it. Yeah, and I love it because it's
• 19:11
  kind of what can help them right now.
• 19:14
  You know, a, a lot of kind of folks I talked to are working on
• 19:18
  really cool companies. You know, whether it's like the
• 19:21
  robot that lives in your broom closet and can clean your teeth
• 19:24
  or the, you know, Amazon or Siri can like listen to you and
• 19:30
  detect if you're depressed. Like there's a lot of things
• 19:32
  that are coming, you know, whether it's prescriptive or
• 19:35
  finding new medications through like deep data analysts and all
• 19:39
  this stuff is in the future to near future.
• 19:41
  But this really works for the the system we have right now.
• 19:45
  It just makes, you know, order of magnitude improvement on it.
• 19:49
  So I love that fact. And and I also love the fact
• 19:52
  that like you were so early, I would love to kind of pick your
• 19:56
  brain on why you chose this probe problem when you did,
• 20:00
  because, you know, Suki was founded in 2017.
• 20:03
  And I mean, people were not thinking about AI.
• 20:05
  People were thinking about like little chat bots in the corner
• 20:08
  or they're, you know, thinking about machine learning.
• 20:10
  It was kind of had a different flavor.
• 20:13
  But you saw that very early in the game, so I'd love to hear
• 20:16
  how kind of like the the origin story.
• 20:20
  Yeah. I mean, you know we started in
• 20:26
  20/17/18 time frame and around that time it was actually for
• 20:33
  those who were paying attention, clear that the attention span of
• 20:37
  these speech models was going to keep increasing.
• 20:40
  And the question that was the last is today if I said navigate
• 20:47
  me to Starbucks, this device actually has a low power chip in
• 20:50
  it and it can pick up and actually navigate me there today
• 20:53
  as in in 2017. But tomorrow from that vantage
• 20:57
  point, why would I just say one sentence?
• 20:59
  I could probably have a whole conversation and it would
• 21:01
  actually make sense of that conversation.
• 21:03
  So the, the tech was actually moving in the direction for the
• 21:07
  people who are paying attention. And it was pretty clear that
• 21:10
  what we called speech models for intent extraction, for
• 21:15
  understanding single phrases and single shot commands, we're
• 21:18
  going to expand to things that would actually listen to the
• 21:22
  whole thing and be able to summarize them or extract
• 21:25
  information out of it. Then the question becomes, if
• 21:28
  that is indeed going to happen, then where would you use that
• 21:30
  technology? And and you know, I'll Ryan,
• 21:33
  I'll be the first one to tell you that I didn't come up with
• 21:37
  some emotional reason to start Suki in healthcare because I had
• 21:42
  like some healthcare story that I wanted to actually deal with.
• 21:46
  I literally looked at the technology and asked myself,
• 21:50
  where is this going to have the biggest impact?
• 21:52
  And it turns out that places where it has impacts are is
• 21:56
  places where you have a sophisticated user.
• 21:59
  There is a lot of data at your disposal, unstructured usually.
• 22:03
  And there are these repeatable workflows that are again and
• 22:08
  again have to be done that these sophisticated users don't want
• 22:11
  to do. They find it boring, they find
• 22:14
  it burdensome. And if you start looking very
• 22:18
  carefully, there is two or three different places that actually
• 22:20
  start showing up. Actually legal is a good example
• 22:23
  of a place where this can actually be used.
• 22:27
  Another place that actually it looked like it could be used was
• 22:30
  doctors, sophisticated user, lots of unstructured data.
• 22:35
  They have to repeatedly see people sometimes for similar
• 22:38
  ailments and issues and keep doing the same task again.
• 22:42
  Again, same documentation, same coding again and again and
• 22:46
  again. And the March of AI was such
• 22:48
  that we could actually extract and automate a lot of those
• 22:51
  things. So then I started thinking, OK,
• 22:53
  well, healthcare looks like it's a it's a place to go.
• 22:56
  Added bonus points that it actually matters.
• 22:59
  You know, in my prior life, you know, I used to run games, you
• 23:05
  know, Google games in Google. I used to build mobile apps at
• 23:08
  Google. I was in the social team.
• 23:10
  And some of those things actually mattered, but some I'm
• 23:12
  not so sure. But this who's going to argue
• 23:16
  against this, right? It actually adds value to the
• 23:20
  world. It is a technical company that I
• 23:22
  actually have an ability to actually do something about and
• 23:26
  and we can practically build it such that to your point, it
• 23:29
  would actually make a difference today.
• 23:31
  And so that's how we started the company in 20/17/18 time frame
• 23:36
  and a lot of things have happened since then.
• 23:38
  But one thing is pretty clear, that our thesis was right.
• 23:42
  You know, we are in the right place. 100% and I believe that
• 23:45
  thesis was AI as the new UI. Yeah, which is true, I mean.
• 23:51
  What we true? It is, right?
• 23:53
  Yeah, you do right now. I mean, like we're all, you
• 23:56
  know, the more this has happened at regular intervals.
• 24:03
  Remember when Internet showed up that before that, the user
• 24:06
  interface was humans talking to each other, doing things.
• 24:11
  Then the Internet showed up and then you had like this big
• 24:13
  screen and then you had a mouse and then you had a keyboard.
• 24:17
  And then at some point, mobile became the new UI.
• 24:20
  And people like, well, mobile, what's mobile?
• 24:23
  It's nothing. It's just a laptop shrunk into a
• 24:25
  small form factor. It turned out it was not.
• 24:28
  It is a fundamentally different way of looking at it because it
• 24:30
  actually brought with it touch, tap, swipe.
• 24:35
  It brought all these interactions in it.
• 24:38
  And then comes what the latest improvements in Frontier AIR and
• 24:43
  now you have whole new user interfaces that are even more
• 24:46
  human like talk right and listen.
• 24:50
  And by the way, not too far from now, think, and when these
• 24:55
  things come, the information density that actually can be
• 24:58
  shared between computing devices and human beings dramatically
• 25:02
  improves, which actually means that a lot of different tasks
• 25:05
  can be automated. So AI is the new UI and it's
• 25:10
  going to continue to be the new UI to the point where one day
• 25:14
  there's a chance that we'll be able to speak and talk to it as
• 25:18
  fluently with the same amount of information density that we do
• 25:22
  with each other. And at that point you would have
• 25:25
  a different world all together. Yeah, you really kind of nailed
• 25:29
  it and really looked into the crystal ball and pulled out the
• 25:32
  bright idea. I mean, AI is the new UI.
• 25:35
  If you look at what happened last Friday, give context, when
• 25:37
  we recorded this, you know, Claude dropped Claude Design and
• 25:41
  immediately Figma dropped 7%, you know, so people are holding
• 25:45
  their breath. It's like, OK, Claude Design
• 25:48
  could come through and knock out Adobe, it can knock out Canva.
• 25:53
  So everyone's like, OK, well, what's next?
• 25:55
  If you can have Claude Design, you could have Claude
• 25:57
  Accounting, you could have Claude Legal, you could have
• 26:00
  Claude everything, but you can't have Claude Medicine, you know
• 26:04
  what I mean? There are certain places that
• 26:06
  like you're the, the role of the human becomes increasingly
• 26:10
  important as the AI tools get better.
• 26:13
  So in this place, it's like AI augmentation for these
• 26:16
  physicians because that's what you need.
• 26:18
  You always need a person. I know for one, I will never go
• 26:21
  to a robot doctor, you know what I mean?
• 26:24
  Be very uncomfortable. Felt very appealing and and and
• 26:28
  was engaging to you. But I'll, I'll add, I'll add to
• 26:32
  that. I think there is this myth and
• 26:35
  concern that AI is going to replace doctors.
• 26:40
  I actually think that is very misplaced.
• 26:44
  Why you are 7 to 8 billion people at this point of time.
• 26:49
  The amount of healthcare needs of these 7 to 8 billion people
• 26:53
  is such that you cannot possibly create enough doctors to
• 26:57
  actually serve these people. And in the world we are walking
• 27:01
  into, technology is going to be such that the medicine is going
• 27:05
  to become increasingly very personalized.
• 27:07
  You already saw what's happening yesterday with the mRNA vaccine
• 27:12
  for pancreatic cancer. That's like one of the most
• 27:15
  difficult death serving cancers in the world.
• 27:18
  And they now have a very specific personalized vaccine
• 27:22
  that they can create for the individual to do stuff.
• 27:26
  So, so your personalized medicine, a place where every
• 27:29
  human being is treated like a single human, You're not going
• 27:32
  to have a doctor for each one of them.
• 27:34
  So then what do you need? You actually need medical AI and
• 27:38
  you need these guides, these humans who actually know more
• 27:43
  than us and better than us and can actually help guide us to
• 27:46
  use the AI and use their information to actually, we get
• 27:49
  better. That's the world we're all going
• 27:51
  to go into. So I, I think you're exactly
• 27:55
  right. It's going to be augmented, but
• 27:58
  there is such swaths of the world in which there is just no
• 28:01
  access to medical care that those people will probably
• 28:04
  benefit from AI showing up, even if it is a little less augmented
• 28:08
  than what we used. Yeah.
• 28:10
  Well, and then it points to a future that I'm really
• 28:12
  interested in, which is like, we don't have enough doctors to
• 28:16
  handle the folks that are sick, so they spend all their time
• 28:19
  with pathology. But I'm really interested in
• 28:21
  human flourishing just to say I feel good, but boy, I want to
• 28:24
  feel better, you know? And so we have all these new
• 28:27
  therapies coming on board now, whether it's nutrition or
• 28:30
  supplements or hormones or or peptides, you know, you want to
• 28:35
  be able to have the time and the doctors have the resources to
• 28:38
  say like, hey, we can create personalized medicine for you,
• 28:41
  not to treat any kind of pathology, but rather to make
• 28:43
  you the best version of yourself possible, you know?
• 28:47
  Totally agree with you. And that's the world we're
• 28:49
  walking into. So if you, if you look at that
• 28:52
  world, tools like Suki invariably just create more
• 28:57
  presence, more time for clinicians to actually operate
• 29:01
  better. And the more they operate
• 29:03
  better, the more perhaps they can see a couple more patients
• 29:07
  that they wouldn't have seen earlier.
• 29:08
  The more they don't retire early because they don't feel like
• 29:12
  they're getting burnt out, the more they encourage their kids
• 29:14
  that they should do medicine. I mean, there was a Stanford
• 29:17
  study that said 81% of all doctors don't recommend the
• 29:19
  profession to their own kids. Well, so our job is to actually
• 29:25
  make, you know, you know, make it, make it.
• 29:30
  There's no such thing as fun, but I would say make it
• 29:33
  enjoyable to practice medicine so that you can bring some
• 29:38
  happiness back to people. And then invariably that
• 29:41
  actually leads to better consequences for patients.
• 29:44
  Beautiful. I'd like to talk about you a
• 29:45
  little bit. I was, I was doing some research
• 29:48
  on you and I was like, Dang, this guy has a gigantic audience
• 29:52
  on LinkedIn. I'm sorry, that is that is not
• 29:56
  easy to do. And then I started reading some
• 29:58
  of your posts. I was like, oh, I get it because
• 30:00
  you're very quotable. And I pulled some of my favorite
• 30:03
  quotes. I wanted to talk about this
• 30:06
  Japanese concept of Kotawari, which is the pursuit of
• 30:10
  excellence in a particular craft with absolute dedication.
• 30:14
  Dedication not for any recognition, but for the sake of
• 30:17
  it. Yeah.
• 30:19
  It's very interesting How How is that important to you?
• 30:23
  You know, you have to hold on to things that actually matter to
• 30:28
  you if you're going to do something hard.
• 30:32
  And as you probably correctly pointed out at the start,
• 30:35
  building companies, actually building companies.
• 30:39
  I mean, there is a lot of romance associated with
• 30:42
  entrepreneurship these days, rightfully so.
• 30:46
  But like starting anything new, doing something hard, creating
• 30:50
  things, writing a book, building a company, all of these things
• 30:54
  actually require you to go above and beyond what your innate
• 30:58
  capabilities are. And in some cases, many cases,
• 31:01
  you actually end up seeing, you know, versions of yourself that
• 31:05
  you have to improve. And so how do you survive that?
• 31:10
  You know, I actually don't think money can be motivating enough.
• 31:14
  You can try, but money cannot be motivating enough.
• 31:18
  If you really wanted to only make money you won't start a
• 31:20
  company. Would just join a company.
• 31:22
  Especially with the background and skills some of us have.
• 31:26
  Fame can be interesting for some time but in today's world it's a
• 31:32
  double edged sword. You know, you almost have to be
• 31:36
  shameless to actually survive, and most people are not.
• 31:41
  So therefore fame has its own consequences that people don't.
• 31:45
  You may not enjoy that much. And then you start thinking,
• 31:48
  digging deeper and deeper and deeper.
• 31:50
  And then you realize, why do you actually do something?
• 31:53
  Why do you climb a mountain? Because it's there.
• 31:55
  Why do you do something? Because you want to figure out
• 31:57
  what's the best version of yourself.
• 31:59
  And that then comes back to the pursuit of excellence, you know,
• 32:03
  not because Ryan will think it was a cool conversation, which I
• 32:08
  hope you do by the way, but not because, you know, my friends
• 32:13
  will think that I'm very successful or my company will
• 32:16
  think that, Oh my God, such a good CEO, but just because I
• 32:21
  want to be better. And when you actually work for
• 32:24
  that, then you sometimes have the strength to actually do hard
• 32:27
  things much more than for other motivations.
• 32:30
  So that's where it comes from. Codavari is a very interesting
• 32:33
  concept because if you go to Japan, you see some of the
• 32:36
  practice, the way they actually do things.
• 32:39
  I saw this very interesting video the other day of somebody
• 32:44
  in acquaintance who had like, it's my age probably.
• 32:49
  And he decided he wanted to really, really learn how to play
• 32:53
  a very difficult piano piece. He's never played, he doesn't
• 32:57
  know how to play piano. So over the course of one year,
• 33:00
  every day he spent one hour practicing, practicing,
• 33:04
  learning. And at the end of the year, he
• 33:07
  actually could play a very beautiful piece from scratch.
• 33:10
  That's Cadaveri, your pursuit of excellence for just the sake of
• 33:14
  it, you know. There also seems to be a
• 33:18
  spiritual calling in that, I mean, I've never been to Japan,
• 33:21
  but I'm a big fan of that aesthetic, the the kind of fuel
• 33:23
  Japan aesthetic and the the rigor and tension that exists in
• 33:29
  in all of that, which is usually broken with some kind of like
• 33:32
  beautiful Zen humor. But I have seen it in my
• 33:34
  cathedrals where you go and you just go to the outside and you
• 33:37
  can touch the stone that is was so perfectly crafted by someone
• 33:42
  you know, probably the word they would use is devotion, where
• 33:45
  they're crafting the stone on the foundation, knowing that
• 33:49
  their great, great grandchildren will be dead before this
• 33:52
  cathedral is completed. So they're spending their whole
• 33:55
  life and their children's life and it's, it's, it's doing it
• 33:59
  for the sake of doing it the best.
• 34:01
  I think with a cathedral or if you're thinking about a church,
• 34:03
  it's easy to interpret that as kind of a spiritual higher
• 34:06
  calling. Does it feel spiritual to you?
• 34:08
  Yeah, you know, you're exactly right.
• 34:11
  And and that's, you know, I mean, there are so many
• 34:13
  different directions this can go.
• 34:15
  The truth is there is, you know, I was born in India, you know,
• 34:21
  and in India, perhaps because of the stage of where the country
• 34:26
  was and how it was actually evolving itself, you almost have
• 34:30
  to be spiritual to actually to actually do things.
• 34:35
  You know, you have to combine that with, I mean, you know,
• 34:38
  Eastern cultures have this. In India, there's a concept of
• 34:41
  Dharma and karma and the idea that you you do things because
• 34:46
  that's your responsibility to do.
• 34:48
  And the idea that you will actually be the fate is
• 34:51
  inevitable and you should just actually be the best person you
• 34:54
  can be. Then you go to the Western side
• 34:56
  of things and here it's individualistic.
• 35:00
  We can actually make things happen.
• 35:01
  Like, you know, there's you can actually build, you can move
• 35:04
  things, kind of want to put both of them together.
• 35:08
  You know, there is this beauty of being able to construct the
• 35:14
  world that you want to do by the sheer dearth of your ambition
• 35:18
  and your your motivation. And then if you marry that with
• 35:23
  the fact that the outcome perhaps is not that important at
• 35:27
  all. And it's actually just the
• 35:28
  journey and what we're actually doing is just what our
• 35:31
  responsibility for this world is.
• 35:33
  Kind of get a best of both worlds, in my opinion.
• 35:35
  And that's actually somehow I feel the best way to run a
• 35:38
  company is, you know, realize that it's a responsibility, but
• 35:43
  also have the ambition to actually make the best out of
• 35:45
  it. Love that.
• 35:48
  I love that I got a couple more quotes that I feel like maybe
• 35:52
  have tension with each other that I want to throw at your
• 35:54
  stuff you'd written. One you said building companies
• 35:59
  is like constantly eating glass and then the other said love and
• 36:03
  care is a strategy too. Yeah, well, the amount of I am,
• 36:16
  you know, when I started this company, I was so much worse as
• 36:21
  a human being. Like I and I generally tend to
• 36:25
  be self critical, but I was like, you know, just so full of
• 36:31
  myself. So used to actually being in
• 36:35
  somewhat semi powerful positions, kind of feeling like
• 36:39
  I was very good and I very smart and if deserved all of those
• 36:43
  things. And then you start a company and
• 36:45
  you're on the ground floor and nobody actually cares about your
• 36:49
  background because that what they actually were paying homage
• 36:53
  to was your role and your title and not you.
• 36:57
  And then when you actually realize that, and then you go
• 37:00
  through the act of building it and you get a lot of failure, a
• 37:03
  lot of failure, that actually teaches you that it kind of
• 37:07
  breaks your ego down properly. And then you can assemble the
• 37:10
  kind of place you want to. So I think we know building
• 37:15
  companies is like many hard things is like constantly eating
• 37:19
  glass because no matter when you are at what place, there is so
• 37:23
  much more to do. Today we might be a successful
• 37:26
  company, but the company that I'm trying to build requires
• 37:28
  skills that I don't have. And so now I'm suddenly back
• 37:33
  asking myself, who do I talk to? Who are my mentors?
• 37:35
  What should I learn? How should I actually organize
• 37:38
  myself for that world? So this, there is no limit,
• 37:41
  there is no end point to this learning that you need to
• 37:44
  actually build it. So that's the eating glass
• 37:46
  perspective. But when you're eating so much
• 37:48
  glass, you need to also basically have empathy and care
• 37:53
  for yourself. And if you're going to care and
• 37:57
  empathize with yourself, you should probably exude it for
• 37:59
  everybody else too. You know, people around me will
• 38:02
  probably say, Puneet, you're not sure if you are as empathetic
• 38:06
  and caring. You know, when you actually are
• 38:08
  operating, you are sharp, you're moving, you're shaking things
• 38:13
  up, you're aggressive. But the but the underlying
• 38:17
  feeling is I still care. I care for you.
• 38:21
  I want you to succeed. I care for my partners.
• 38:24
  I want them to succeed. I want us to build great things
• 38:26
  together. You know that matters.
• 38:30
  You have to do that and then the then then the outcomes will
• 38:33
  automatically show up. That's what those quotes mean.
• 38:37
  I don't really know if they're successful or not yet, right?
• 38:43
  Like I mean, I have Sookie for partners business.
• 38:47
  We have these massive companies, Zoom, Optum, Athena Med and like
• 38:53
  we have, you know, all these large health edge, all these
• 38:57
  companies were building on top of 30 large companies.
• 39:00
  And I can constantly feel like I want to work very closely with
• 39:04
  them so we can make healthcare better.
• 39:07
  But, you know, but there is also the bureaucracy and structure
• 39:11
  and how incentive structures are aligned.
• 39:13
  So yeah, love is a strategy. Not clear if it's a winning 1
• 39:18
  yet, but we'll find out. I love it and I love that that
• 39:22
  story because, you know, folks that have ego, folks that have
• 39:27
  confidence, folks that have swagger, they find themselves in
• 39:31
  powers of authority because that's, that's where you want
• 39:34
  your leaders. That's the attribute you want
• 39:35
  out of your leaders. But also you need, you know,
• 39:38
  unless you're a psychopath, there's a person in there.
• 39:40
  So you have this confidence that's kind of like a, a layer
• 39:44
  of armor. And through that breakdown
• 39:45
  process, you realize, OK, I'm made of butter.
• 39:48
  So I gotta I gotta balance this out.
• 39:52
  When do you feel like it's like a superpower to wear that armor
• 39:56
  of confidence and where is it the most appropriate times to
• 39:59
  kind of take it off? It's interesting you say that it
• 40:05
  all depends. I mean, the times then when it's
• 40:08
  the biggest superpower is when you're faced with great failure,
• 40:11
  right? It's, it's, it's a good thing to
• 40:15
  have around you so that when the world tells you you're not going
• 40:20
  to succeed, you can basically say, well, we will see, you
• 40:24
  know, we will see, we can pull it together.
• 40:28
  But it's not a good thing to have when you're faced with
• 40:31
  other people's insecurities, because squashing that and
• 40:36
  destroying that in, in creating or destroying them is not really
• 40:40
  going to help anybody. And so I think that in our
• 40:44
  society today, psychopathic behaviour to some extent is
• 40:49
  almost rewarded. And I'm not being political.
• 40:53
  I'm just, you know, look at like the greatest entrepreneurs of
• 40:57
  our time, like greatest, right? We look at them and they are
• 41:02
  basically, I mean the word that you use is probably the right
• 41:06
  one, which is the psychopaths, like you know, they are single
• 41:09
  minded in trying to get something done with almost no
• 41:14
  other like almost no other aspect to them.
• 41:19
  You know, did you ever see a Forbes magazine cover that said,
• 41:24
  oh, look at you know, XYZ. He's a 47 year old CEO with a
• 41:33
  great happy family of three kids and a brother who loves him and
• 41:37
  parents who think he's the best thing.
• 41:40
  That's not a thing. What we actually do is we
• 41:43
  actually we actually create heroes out of people who are
• 41:47
  psychopathic. And I actually think that's that
• 41:52
  may lead to unreasonable, may lead to the world actually
• 41:55
  getting new things, But I'm not sure if that actually leads to
• 41:58
  world being a better place. And in this mix that you talk
• 42:02
  about, where you actually have the strength to actually be a
• 42:05
  little edgy and push through the world, but also have the warmth
• 42:09
  to understand that our time is limited and what we actually do
• 42:12
  and how we live is probably more important than what how much
• 42:15
  money we made and what we built. Beautiful.
• 42:18
  And I love that image too, of like showing restraint when you
• 42:21
  can be caring for somebody who needs it, but using that as a
• 42:25
  bank so that when the world steps on your neck, then you put
• 42:30
  it on and you're like, no, you're not ready for me yet.
• 42:32
  I have this Bank of confidence that I've been waiting for this
• 42:36
  exact moment to deploy. Completely and nothing actually
• 42:40
  does a better job of extracting that out of you than healthcare,
• 42:43
  by the way. Really tough sector, long nail
• 42:48
  cycles, very difficult to build a company, so much bureaucracy.
• 42:53
  I mean you could take out three out of the four bureaucrats in
• 42:57
  this place and I don't think it would change the efficiency
• 43:00
  levels of this place. So you know, but I understand to
• 43:04
  them, so I can't really. Say to them, we've got a couple
• 43:07
  more minutes here, so I want to take this conversation into the
• 43:10
  quantum round. Are you ready?
• 43:11
  Sure. All right, let's talk about
• 43:13
  failures. But before we do, let's talk
• 43:16
  about success because my friend, you've had a lot of it, you
• 43:18
  know, since 2017. Just the numbers I found maybe
• 43:22
  170 million raised, call it 3-4 hundred employees of three, 400
• 43:27
  customers. You've crushed it.
• 43:31
  What are maybe some failures that you you mentioned that that
• 43:35
  folks might not be able to see from seeing your highlight reel?
• 43:37
  Oh my God, how much time do you have?
• 43:43
  Well, I think that I was, as I said when I started, you know, I
• 43:50
  was not equipped to be ACEO. You know, being a senior leader
• 43:55
  and a senior executive at large companies doesn't give you the
• 43:58
  training to be a CEOCEO is a completely different role.
• 44:02
  And so first of all, it took me some time to actually become
• 44:05
  one. Probably the first three years
• 44:07
  it was hard. Second, I think that I didn't
• 44:12
  hire as well. And since I didn't hire as well,
• 44:16
  I then compounded that with the second mistake that I didn't
• 44:19
  really fire as well for the first few years.
• 44:25
  So those were some of the things that I remember.
• 44:29
  I'm a product guy and I invariably feel that we still
• 44:31
  continue to do more than we should in terms of focus, which
• 44:34
  is hilarious because my entire like career is actually product
• 44:38
  management. And so I would say if you cut 20
• 44:42
  percent, 25% of the arc of what you're doing, you would probably
• 44:45
  still have a much faster company with the same kind of impact.
• 44:48
  And that's probably another area I would look at.
• 44:50
  So those are some of the things I can think of.
• 44:52
  What I will tell you is the number of things that I'm
• 44:56
  probably not good at is much larger than things I'm good at.
• 44:59
  But there's one thing that I am good at, which is I will learn.
• 45:03
  So if I make mistakes, which I do quite regularly, then I'm
• 45:08
  happy to reflect on it and try to get better at.
• 45:12
  And that's probably the one thing I'll leave with the folks
• 45:16
  who are listening, which is, yeah, you know, we all actually
• 45:19
  are flawed people and have hundreds of things we can we
• 45:22
  probably don't do well. But as long as we have that one
• 45:25
  capability that we can learn from our mistakes, we will
• 45:28
  invariably just keep becoming better versions of ourselves.
• 45:32
  Yeah, I love that. You know, in the beginning, like
• 45:36
  you said, a lot of barriers of entry in, in healthcare, HIPAA
• 45:39
  compliance, all kinds of compliance all over the place.
• 45:42
  Plus you're going after enterprise type clients, large
• 45:45
  organizations. When you were thinking go to
• 45:47
  market, how did you get your first clients?
• 45:50
  Did you use design partners and then kind of expand from there?
• 45:54
  Being a product guy, was that a challenge to to not be kind of
• 45:57
  product market focused? Yeah, it was.
• 46:00
  I was not very commercially astute.
• 46:04
  And like most people, I kind of like flip back between, oh, we
• 46:08
  should sell to like small and medium people first.
• 46:11
  Oh no, we should sell to enterprises or we should and
• 46:13
  kept going back and forth. The truth was that it is
• 46:18
  probably a good idea to sell to small and medium clinics so that
• 46:22
  you can learn how to build the product.
• 46:24
  But it is not a good idea to build a whole motion on that
• 46:26
  because the long tail of Ehrs that they sit on are so complex
• 46:30
  that the AI can't work with that very easily.
• 46:33
  So enterprises is actually probably the right go to market.
• 46:35
  The problem with enterprises, if you start there, you end up
• 46:38
  spending three to four, they will, they will put you, they
• 46:42
  will put you through the paces for years or until you run out
• 46:45
  of money and not pay you. So you can't really do that till
• 46:49
  you're actually really ready for them.
• 46:51
  And so I flipped back and forth, but ultimately we ended up in a
• 46:54
  place where we used small clinics to design the product
• 46:58
  and learn how to build the right thing.
• 47:00
  And then we found our first customers through some
• 47:02
  combination of just relationships.
• 47:04
  You know, I mean, to be honest, anybody who says they found
• 47:08
  their customer through some classic go to market, you know,
• 47:13
  cycle and they had like AVP of sales, they're bullshitting you.
• 47:17
  The only way you find your first customer is you're on the street
• 47:21
  and you convince somebody who actually runs something to take
• 47:25
  a bet on you. Because if you can't do that
• 47:28
  yourself, you can't sell yourself.
• 47:29
  Like if you can't sell as an entrepreneur yourself, nobody
• 47:34
  else is going to come into your team and sell better than you.
• 47:36
  And so that's what we did. Cool.
• 47:40
  Last question, aside from Sookie, what else are you kind
• 47:44
  of building in a plane around with with AI?
• 47:48
  Oh my God, I have so many. Interesting things that we were
• 47:51
  actually randomly doing. I'll give you one example.
• 47:54
  We went to Japan. Since you're talking with Japan,
• 47:57
  I took like everybody's feedback around me on what places I
• 48:00
  should go to and what I should do.
• 48:02
  And I put it into Gemini, and I asked it to lay it on a map and
• 48:07
  create a notification system so that when I'm actually walking
• 48:10
  in Japan, it would ping me on my phone saying Ryan recommended
• 48:14
  you go to that bar that's 100 feet that way.
• 48:16
  Oh, it's so cool. Right.
• 48:18
  Yeah, that's a cool product. Like, and there's so many
• 48:21
  interesting things you can build like these.
• 48:23
  And so anyway, I have, I can tell you like 10 other things
• 48:26
  like these, but you know, I love it.
• 48:29
  My, my 14 year old has just discovered that stuff.
• 48:32
  Also, he's building like this very interesting.
• 48:36
  He's building an AI tutor for science for himself.
• 48:40
  So he's literally uploading like, like curriculums and he's
• 48:46
  trying to figure out what is the fun way for him to learn from
• 48:48
  it. I'm looking at that and
• 48:49
  thinking, wow, like kids nowadays, like they have so much
• 48:52
  access to do these things. So any other thing that I
• 48:56
  recommend people doing if they're listening to this, if
• 48:59
  you have kids, especially at the age group I'm talking about,
• 49:04
  give them like, you know, Gemini Pro or Cloud Pro with tokens.
• 49:09
  Let them build stuff because it's just such a amazing time to
• 49:14
  be building things right now. So cool.
• 49:16
  I have a 17 and 18 year old and my my daughter, she's 18.
• 49:19
  We meet for an hour every Wednesday and we do Claude
• 49:22
  projects. You know, she's like a really
• 49:25
  cool kind of fitness app where she can find influencers and
• 49:28
  like pull their workouts. It's super cool.
• 49:31
  Exactly. I mean, anything can be done at
• 49:33
  this point of time. We need to just build like, and
• 49:36
  that's the last part I'll say. I know we had a time.
• 49:39
  You know that my son sometimes looks at me and says like, what
• 49:44
  am I going to do? What jobs will be there?
• 49:47
  Like how what You know, you kind of did your math and engineering
• 49:52
  and ended up actually becoming an electrical engineer.
• 49:54
  And then you found your way into business.
• 49:56
  What am I going to do? What should I learn?
• 49:59
  And I was like, well, you are going to do things that we can't
• 50:05
  even dream of doing. You will discover new disease
• 50:09
  cures. You will discover space travel.
• 50:13
  Heck, you might actually solve new physics, the rules that
• 50:17
  nobody's even thought of that could be signed, you would do.
• 50:21
  It's just the what they are going to do and the jobs that's
• 50:24
  going to create and the cool things they're going to do will
• 50:27
  make us look like so boring and so must aid.
• 50:31
  So I am so optimist, optimistic about the the world that's
• 50:36
  coming in front of us and what our kids are going to have.
• 50:39
  Not only agreed, Puneet, this has been absolutely amazing.
• 50:42
  People please check out Suki. It's Suki dot AISUKII want to
• 50:49
  give a shout out to Alex and Trinity with Solcoms.
• 50:52
  Thank you for organizing this, Puneet.
• 50:55
  Where's the best place for people to connect with you
• 50:57
  online? Is it LinkedIn?
• 51:00
  Yeah, LinkedIn is probably OK. The problem with LinkedIn is
• 51:02
  there's just so many followers there that it's really hard to.
• 51:06
  But probably LinkedIn, you know, just find me on put it Sony at
• 51:09
  LinkedIn. Cool.
• 51:10
  Thank you so much for joining me.
• 51:12
  I really appreciate it. Thank you.
• 51:14
  What if you had a partnership manager working for your podcast
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• 52:07
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• 52:10
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