Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Dragonfly Jonez on Michael Jordan, LeBron James & how the GOAT debate made Sports less fun | 8.06

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Dragonfly Jonez on Michael Jordan, LeBron James & how the GOAT debate made Sports less fun | 8.06 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time. A wave original.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: a hater. It is that time of week where we
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: got a guest. Join us from the Jenkins and Jones podcast. Tyler, a.k.a.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Dragonfly Jones is going up big dog.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: What's going on, bro? I appreciate you having me on
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: as always.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: All right. I see you putting on for the Commonwealth.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? With the nerd shirt. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: With the nerd shirt, with the clips box set in
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: the back. You know, it's a great time for Virginia
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: music right about now. You know, this is our summer
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: right about now. I may make that bold distinction.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I thought she was doing that because of that shade
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: I threw the last time.
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: I thought it felt like this.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, we can discuss it.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: I heard what you said with Mero about how you
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: gave the clips a listen.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: You know, if you want to get into that, you know,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: we can for sure.
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: Oh, no, I gave it a listen.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I told you, man.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: It's 12 elbow jumpers, baby. And they was getting down
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  Speaker 1: the floor. They was hitting their spots. They was making
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: their shots. You know what I'm saying?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And I feel like the tone is like, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it gets a bit boring. It gets a little redundant
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  Speaker 3: for you. It's not too exciting for you. But my,
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: you know, and I'm with you on that. What I
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: enjoy most about this new Clips album is that it's
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  Speaker 3: the same brand of rapping that Clips have given us
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  Speaker 3: for 25.
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  Speaker 2: Fucking years, right?
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  Speaker 3: Like, that's what I love about it the most is
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  Speaker 3: that it is, you know, the tried and true formula and,
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: you know, your angle might be that it gets a
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: bit redundant and it gets a bit monotonous. My whole
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: thing is It is of a bygone era. You ever
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: just watch an MJ highlight reel of him working the mid-range?
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: You're like, God, I miss that brand of basketball. You
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: know what I mean? That's what the clips feel like
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  Speaker 3: to me. Granted, they're sticking to the formula, like you're saying,
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  Speaker 3: but it's a formula that feels a bit lost.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Well, this is a very interesting lane for all kinds
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: of musical acts, which is the ones whom you tolerate
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: doing the same shit over and over again.
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  Speaker 4: We don't do this for everybody. Great example.
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  Speaker 1: We let Too Short rap about the same stuff over
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  Speaker 1: and over again. Now Too Short would change his sound
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  Speaker 1: from year to year, time to time, period to period.
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  Speaker 1: But you know what you're getting from a Too Short record.
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  Speaker 1: You know what he's talking about. It's another good example.
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  Speaker 1: Devin the Dude is like on a smaller scale for
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, but we know what's going on
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: with Devin. Devin is living a regular life. And at
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: some point between those three verses, sometimes in all three
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: of those verses, he's going to get something to drink,
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: he's going to get something to smoke, and he's going
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: to get a little something to chill with. Don't matter
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: what she look like, she's going to be there with
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  Speaker 1: Devin to do.
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  Speaker 2: What we're there for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 4: We're there every time.
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  Speaker 1: Some people, we pop up and we're like, oh, here
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: they go again, talking about that same shit all over again.
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  Speaker 1: Not everybody can pull it off. Some people can stay
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  Speaker 1: in that narrow, whatever lane it is, and keep it compelling.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and You know, that's that's kind of always
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  Speaker 3: a discussion on social media. Oh, man, this rapper talks
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: about the same thing. Every rapper talks about the same thing.
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  Speaker 3: Rap is wrestling, bro. Every rapper has a gimmick. Every
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  Speaker 3: rapper has a persona and they stick to that.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: And the whole thing is, is your gimmick entertaining enough
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  Speaker 3: for it to be repetitive? You know, I mean, that's
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: what it all boils down to.
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  Speaker 1: I remember once my brother saw an interview early on
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  Speaker 1: with with Manny Fresh and he was talking about the
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  Speaker 1: hot boys. And he said, I forget, he said, one
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  Speaker 1: of them, you know, one of them was smooth. He's like,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: one of them had the money and the jewelry and
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: the other one, you know, this one had the blocka blocka.
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  Speaker 4: My brother was like, oh, so you got the country
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  Speaker 4: and the Western.
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  Speaker 1: I understand, you know, I see nuanced distinctions between different things.
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  Speaker 1: For example, I feel like thematically every UGK album is
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: a little bit different. There's dope dealing albums. There's pimping albums.
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  Speaker 1: There's being really cool albums. And they're not exactly the same. Right.
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  Speaker 1: It sounds like the same stuff. But like they're there
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  Speaker 1: to me when I listen. I'm like, oh, we are
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: approaching this from different angles. I see what you're coming from.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm sure that somebody is out here listening to
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  Speaker 1: me being like, OK, yes, you just said the country
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  Speaker 1: and the Western. Yes, I did. Well, the story we
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: just go up for what we go up for. And
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: speaking of going up, this is part of our series.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: On the top 25 athletes of the last 25 years
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: for this year, 2025, we've got five left. We are
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: down to the top five. You go back, check our
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: old episodes, see what we got here. And what we've
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: done is we've done episodes alongside those to give some
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: context to these last 25 years, not just the games themselves,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: but the ways that we consume them and the ways
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  Speaker 1: that we talk about them. And one way that we
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  Speaker 1: talk about sports, it feels like we do now more
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  Speaker 1: than ever, is sports. talking about who is the greatest
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  Speaker 1: of all time. Now, yes, I'm in the course of
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  Speaker 1: doing this list that is in small part a mockery
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  Speaker 1: of lists, but a list nonetheless, not being hypocritical by
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: doing that and having this discussion. But I think there's
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  Speaker 1: something different about a constant discussion with like a running
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  Speaker 1: tally and leaderboard for who is the greatest of all time.
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  Speaker 1: all the time in honestly just about anything. Like we
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: can get to other places and talk about other stuff,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: I feel like you and I are good to talk
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  Speaker 1: about this as we are kind of like Twitter OG
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: veterans from back in the day. Quite honestly, we are
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: the father to a few cast styles out here in
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: the way they get out here and tweet. I'll say
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: it out loud. Tyler will only say it to people
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: when they're not around, right? You can get out there.
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  Speaker 1: You can look at it. You can see who we
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: gave birth to. This is the truth. I gave birth
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: to a more argumentative style of things out here that
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: I have since disavowed myself from. However, the influence is
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: there and I have regrets, right? You are a little
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: bit better at being a bit conversational about it.
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  Speaker 4: But what we.
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  Speaker 1: Have seen, though, is in the last 15 years, social
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  Speaker 1: media really propagating the idea that not only must you
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  Speaker 1: have a candidate for the greatest of all time, you
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  Speaker 1: must fight for this fervently everywhere. single day yeah i
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  Speaker 1: do not feel like that has made our sports more.
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  Speaker 3: Fun yeah i totally agree with you um going back
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  Speaker 3: to what you said about how we have been on
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  Speaker 3: like social media for like 15 years and it's a
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  Speaker 3: perfect conversation for us to have totally agree there because
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  Speaker 3: i feel like we have seen.
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  Speaker 2: The the.
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  Speaker 3: Um the evolution and i feel like now we're kind
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: of at a de-evolution stage of social media right like
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: when i first hopped on twitter i was like this
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  Speaker 3: is incredible this is I still think that Twitter is
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  Speaker 3: perhaps the greatest innovation in human connectivity that we've perhaps
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: ever seen. I can tweet out right now, hey, I
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: got a question for someone in Argentina. And 30 minutes later,
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  Speaker 3: someone from Argentina will probably hit me back. It is
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  Speaker 3: a great tool to connect us. But it feels like
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: when we first got on, I think if you first
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: got on Twitter in the early stages, you were someone
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  Speaker 3: who was a bit curious, someone who was a bit
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: intellectually curious. or someone who wanted to see what the
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: big deal was right there. So there was, there was
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: some curiosity in some angle that drove you to Twitter.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: And you got on there and you interacted with folks and, and,
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: and you built community, you know, going back to, you know,
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: to what you said, like the morning Jones, that was
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  Speaker 3: the first interactive community I was a part of.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: You know, online, you know what I mean? Long live
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  Speaker 2: the morning Jones.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: And, and I feel like, you know, And it's infancy
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  Speaker 3: stages on Twitter when we first hopped on 15 years
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  Speaker 3: or so ago where we were genuinely interested in developing community.
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  Speaker 3: We're genuinely interested in connecting with folks and seeing different viewpoints.
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  Speaker 3: I feel like that shit is dead now. I feel
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: like now we're at the point where I feel like
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: it's not the unifying force it once was. It's something
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  Speaker 3: that divides us more. It's something that entrenches us more
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  Speaker 3: in our tribalism, right? Like it's something where where you
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: found your people, you know, if you've been on there
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  Speaker 3: for four or four, you know, 15 plus years or whatever.
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  Speaker 3: And you're like, OK, this is who I'm rocking with.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Or if you're someone who if you're someone who just
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: hopped on Twitter like the last two or three years,
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: you're a maniac.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: Like, why? Why did you come to this hellhole? It's
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: nothing but like we try to get off the block.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: Like it's a lot of things that keep us on
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: the block, but.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: We try to get off the block. Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: But the thing about Twitter is, is I can't quit
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: it because it's like it's like the best news source
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  Speaker 3: on the planet.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: Like you're not you're not going to have one stop
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: shop that's going to give you breaking sports news, breaking,
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: you know, politic news, breaking world event news. Like you're
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: just not going to find that any other other place.
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  Speaker 3: So that's how it got me. But but yeah, it's
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  Speaker 3: it feels like. You know, going back to what you said,
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: people have kind of made that their brand where it's like,
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: you know, this athlete is who I'm rocking with. This
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: musician is who I'm rocking with. And this is who
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: I am. So, you know, any you know, I'm going
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: to bat for them because of, you know, this is
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: this is me. Or if you're attacking that artist, you're
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: attacking me by extension.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Right. And it's just also tiring right now.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I also think another part of it. And I'm curious
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: what you think about this. I think the GOAT discussion
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and the favorite player discussions. became intertwined in a way
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: that was problematic, right? And so what I mean by
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: that is when somebody says that's my goat, it is
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  Speaker 1: not simply that you think that they are the greatest player.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: It's that they are also your favorite player. And I
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: don't always know, is it your favorite player because he's
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: the greatest or is he the greatest because he's your
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: favorite player? Like for me, these are distinct ideas. My
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: favorite player growing up was Dominique. Michael Jordan is the
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: greatest player of all time. Dominique Wilkins is not my goat.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Dominique Wilkins is my favorite player.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Those are not the same thing. When people like at
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: once you would think that the idea that someone is.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: your goat would be a matter of humility, right? Like, hey,
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, hey, this is me. This is my opinion.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: But no, no, no, no, no. That's not really what
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: you're saying. Because in all likelihood, you're going to get
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: out here and you're going to scrap it out to
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: the death about this. Now, of course, this discussion is
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: really a basketball discussion, right? There are places I think
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: where the GOAT discussion would be a lot more fascinating.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: For example, who is the greatest quarterback of all time
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: has potentially like five or six answers, right? That one
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: there's fun to get into. And I actually think that
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: people wouldn't argue with nearly as hard. Now, Tom Brady
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: is going to win it in most cases. I don't
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: put a pin in that because that later on, because
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to like kind of what that
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: gets down to. But it's really become the weaponized discussion
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: of LeBron versus Michael Jordan. And I am curious if
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: this happens on your end as much as it happens
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: on mine, which is. The algorithm every day feeds me
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: somebody on either the Jordan or LeBron side of the
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: debate fiercely. Like those accounts that turned up with blue
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: checks and that, you know, we're getting money off of
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: the engagement somewhere.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: They figured out this one goes every all day, every day.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: There is an account making an argument there with a
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: side of Kobe thrown in there also. Yeah.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like if you've noticed all these Muse accounts that
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: pop up just devoted to like specific players and all that.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: But going back to what you said about how it's
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: something that I totally agree that it feels like something
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: very extremely specific to basketball because, you know, you said
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Dominique's your favorite, MJ's your GOAT. Allen Iverson's my favorite
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: and Brown is my GOAT, right? Like, and I feel
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: like there is, I think that Dominique is your favorite
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: and Iverson's my favorite for basketball. for probably the same
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: reasons because we, they were the, they were the, our
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: favorite place when we were kids.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: And there's something, and there's something there where like, you know,
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: me and Bron, we're, we're, we're contemporaries in age. I didn't,
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: I didn't idolize him or look up to him the
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: way I did AI when I was a kid, you know,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: watching them.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: Right. Like it's, it's different there. And also there's the.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Whole, the whole individuality about how basketball players just make
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: a bigger impact than football players do, right? Like, if
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: we had a GOAT debate about quarterbacks like you mentioned,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: the only people who are going to be really going
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: up for Elway are going to be, you know, of
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: course you're going to have, you know, the historians, the diehards,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: but it's going to be Broncos fans for the most part.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: It's going to be Patriots fans for the most part
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: going up for, you know, for Brady. Aaron Rodgers is
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: a man without a country. I don't know if good
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: Packers fans even rock with that dude anymore, but it
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: probably would be a bunch of Packers fans going up
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: for Rodgers in that discussion too, right? With basketball, it's
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: all over the place, bro. You know what I mean?
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: It's a sport where there's a lot of allegiances to
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: players over teams.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Yes. It's players over teams, and there appears to be
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: a generational war among basketball fans about who the greatest
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: player is. that is much different than I think from
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: any other sport. And it's funny because I think it also,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I think it exists in football. It's just not nearly
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: as antagonistic. For example, you don't hear anybody put Joe
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Montana in the greatest quarterback of all time discussion anymore.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: When Joe Montana retired, he was absolutely 100% a candidate
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: for that. He is the OG Tom Brady in that discussion.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Four championships in a nine-year period, which I don't think
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Tom Brady pulled off. Actually, no, he did that second run.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I think that he came back around to it. But
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: the four championships in nine years for Joe Montana was huge.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: This revolutionizing offense that came around and with big game
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: winning drives that we saw like repeatedly. That was the
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: thing also with John Elway. Game winning drives in an
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: era where the passing game was neither as sophisticated nor
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: as permitted by rule in the game. We did not
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: grandfather any of those guys in, which is a very
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: interesting place because it's almost impossible to evaluate it because
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the NFL game right now is so completely different than
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: what the NFL game was back then, right? Nobody now
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: argues that the talent is greater, dah, dah, dah, everything else. Therefore,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Derrick Henry is the greatest running back of all time.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: it's fascinating you don't see anybody do that now running
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: back that's a fun well it used to it could
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: be a fun go discussion except everybody's still playing for
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: number two we made that Jim Brown so long ago
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: yeah and maybe that's part of what it is right
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: in these other games like Jerry Rice is the number
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: one running back I mean wide receiver of all time
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: everybody's playing for number two we haven't opened that up
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: for discussion like ever Jordan was.
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: Also the same way, except the kids decided.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no. We getting our piece
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: of the rock right here. And it's that guy right there.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: How could you tell me somebody is better than that guy?
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: And I can totally understand how it is that you
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: would say that when you watch. Yeah. Yeah.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: And also there are a few outliers, you know, where
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: you see youngins going up for MJ. But if it
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: but it always feels like they're doing that to discredit
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: LeBron for the most.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. Right.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: Like, like for sure, there are some, some kids who
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: are really hopping on YouTube, checking out film and who genuinely,
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: you know, think that MJ is the greatest player of
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: all time. You know, not, not at all knocking those
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: kids who are like historians and students of the game.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: But for usually if you see like a 23 year
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: old talking about how MJ is better than you know
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: MJ's the GOAT if you scan their timeline if you
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: do a search you'll see that they hate LeBron you
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: know what I mean and that feels like that feels
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: like all the rules are being thrown out the window
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: because that's not something our generation did like when MJ
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: was the GOAT when you know when we were youngins
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: we didn't have contrarians saying Kareem was better I never
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: had in all the discussions I had with my homies
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: when we were kids when we were youngins we were
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: in our early 20s about the greatest basketball players of
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: all time it was always.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: MJ and I never had a contrarian come out and
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: be like Kareem you know.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: What I mean And Kareem has as good a case
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: as any.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not knocking him. I'm just saying that it's just.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: It's it's an anomaly that I feel like I'm seeing
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: now where people where youngins are going against the basketball
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: that they saw in their time and reaching back to
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: the past to say that this guy from the past
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: is better. And granted, MJ is as good as, of course,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: like like not knocking him there. But if it just
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: feels like like that is just something that that lets
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: me know that in these goat wars, like all the
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: rules go out the window.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: But also, let me throw something else out there about LeBron.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I'm curious what you think about this, because this has
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: never truly happened before. LeBron is at once the player
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: of the present and the player of the past. And so, yes,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: he is still playing right now, but that don't necessarily
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: mean he belong to you if you're calling, let's just
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: say 11 years old, right? Like he's been there forever,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: but he's the old guy to you, right? Your guy
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: is probably somebody younger, somebody hipper, somebody a little bit fresher,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: but you don't have anybody younger than him that you
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: could really latch on to and then say, no, that's
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: my guy. He's better than LeBron. Because obviously that person
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: hasn't even been in a position to put up a
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: similar type of receipt. Therefore, your only real option is
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: to jump back and go take Michael Jordan.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: There's also the interesting place where Kobe stands in this
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: because I wear Kobe stands up with a D. I
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: was not saying Kobe stands. We talked about Kobe stands
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: last week. But Kobe stands in a similar place where I.
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: Shannon and I.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Talked about this and this idea that people didn't have
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: all this slander for Kobe when he was alive. 100
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: percent not true. Kobe was on the wrong side of
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: everybody's favorite player and had a legitimate downtime in his
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: career and is actually far more interesting than the two-dimensional
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: figure that people try to create now. That was everybody.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: All right, y'all.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: I feel like there's been some reverence afforded to him
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: in his death because the criticism against Kobe were way
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: more personal back then.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Bro, when he was alive. And now they're keeping it basketball,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: you know?
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: I can read the room.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: I've had to go about this somewhat differently. I remember
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: when Kobe died, I was like, ooh, I can't wait
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to watch Nick's show. I don't know how he gonna
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: do this. And it was the same way. I was like, ooh,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm gonna do this.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Like, I remember when he dropped that photo shoot in
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: all white. Like, that was one of my first memories
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: in the Morning Joe's community.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: And we clowned, bro. We clowned.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: Let me tell you something.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like one of the worst parts of Kobe
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: dying is that that died with him.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: We don't feel right.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: What was it?
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: He was dressed like spa versus pie and looked like
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: somebody just started playing a pageant.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And i'm always saying the zoolander face like yes yes
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: oh man it.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Was so many of them so signed off on this
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: i have no idea but at the same time i've
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: seen people on the it's mike and then it's kobe
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and i'm like huh this is interesting because nobody i'd
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: never heard anybody Say that you could you had people
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: who thought that Kobe was their favorite player or that
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Kobe was the best player, perhaps in the league at
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: different points. You know, my hottest take that I don't
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: think is that hot is that Kobe was like a
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: song that was never got to number one on the charts,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: but it was number two, you know, for a long time.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: A lot of great songs that never made it to
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: number one. I don't think that he had that. But
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: at the same time, he has now reentered a greatest
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: of all time discussion in part because I think people
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: feel obligated to be part of a greatest of all
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: time discussion, but also sometimes just want to have their
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: own thing they say, right?
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: It's like the people whose favorite Beatle is George Harrison.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: It's not that George Harrison didn't write great songs, but
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: you know that shit ain't true.
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And, you know, I feel like there should probably
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: be a distinction between greatest of all time and best
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: of all time, right? Because For me, LeBron is just
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: flat out the best basketball player I've ever seen. And
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: I will never I will not say that he has
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: a greater legacy than MJ to three beats. The biggest
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: athlete of our lifetimes.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Like MJ is the greatest NBA player of all time.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: But the thing is, like it.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I do feel like Bron and folks who are following
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: after MJ, they've been dealt a raw deal with this
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: rings culture. Because we're not going to see any guys
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: get seven rings.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: I strongly doubt that.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: But the thing about it is, during MJ's run, he
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: didn't need those six rings to be the greatest. When
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: he retired after that first three-peat, the narrative was the
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: greatest basketball player of all time is retiring in his prime.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: We knew there just off the eye test that he
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: only needed three championships to be the greatest that we
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: ever saw. And I'm not sure if we're ever going
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: to get to that again. But I will say, the
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: one player who gives me hope that we might debunk
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: all this Reigns culture shit is that kid in San Antonio, bro. Wimby, like,
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: because your eye, the shit that you're seeing with your eyes,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: you have not seen a basketball player do the things
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: that he does, right? And I feel like he might
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: be the one who might be able to drive that
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: stake in the heart of rings culture and kill it,
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: because Wimby won't need seven rings for him to be
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: the greatest, you know, of all time.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: In my opinion.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: Like, bro, like, I watched, you know, his preseason game
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: run before his rookie year, and I was like, this
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: kid has the potential to be the best basketball player
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: I've ever seen in my life. Like, that's all I
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: needed to see, bro. He has the potential and we'll
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: see if he fulfills it because, because he was on,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: he was on a hell of a pace. He was
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: going to be a defensive player. He was going to
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: be the defensive player of the year this season before
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: he got hurt.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Like he's making great time. They got some help with
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: there with, with, with the Aaron Fox, you know, to
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: take some of the load off of there with him too.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: And finally got someone who will be able to throw
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: him some fucking lobs because he was like the most
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: underused lob threatened in the league. But yeah, man, when
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: we might be, he might be the promised one, man,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: who can, who can finally, you know, kill all this
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: rings culture.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: That is a great point. And the problem I think
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: that will come with this is he going to get
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: hated on because he's so gifted.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: And, The thing about Jordan and LeBron both in this
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: is they were preternaturally gifted, right? Like you can make
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: the argument about somebody like Jokic, right? If you want
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: to make like a more with less argument, you can
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: go ahead and do that. But Michael Jordan at once
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: was the most talented player pound for pound of his time.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And I... Every time I hear somebody say they think
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving is the most skilled basketball player of ever,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: and I'm just like, have you never watched Michael Jordan
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: play basketball? There is no other answer than Michael Jordan
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: on that one, period. Somebody put a video up yesterday
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: that was three minutes of MJ in the post, and
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: it wasn't just old Mike, right?
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: It was still like 89 Mike. It was like 91 Mike.
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: He was a problem he was a problem.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: He's such a problem right such a problem lebron shows
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: up and he's an x-man right like we've never seen
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: anything physically quite like that to also have the nerve
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: to have the brain of a computer and be really
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: good at a lot of basketball stuff it wasn't as
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: graceful as it was with mike right but i see
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: the argument that people make like i think I don't,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: I am down for measures of relativity and allowing people
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: to have their own opinions and everything else. But I
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: think we started talking about who the greatest and best is.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: There are right answers and there are wrong answers, right?
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I think that the answer is Michael Jordan. I think
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: the other people are wrong, but I'm not going to
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: fight you about the fact that you're wrong, right? Like
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: if this was class and you got a question wrong
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: on the test, I'm not going to argue with you
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: about the shit. You just got it wrong.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah you know like you said lebron was
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: something we've never seen before you know the size of
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: carl malone run point the greatest basketball of mine i
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: think we've ever seen i think he's got that distinction
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: as well i want to go back to what you
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: said about kairi though about how you know he's got
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: the whole most skilled uh distinction there because that's something
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: that i've just i'm not going and i'm a kairi
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: fan i think he's incredible but i feel like that
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: discussion where they say kairi is the most skilled ever
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: i feel like that is just reducing skill to being
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: someone who's able to get their shot off against tough defenses.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I feel like that's what they're saying. They're saying he's
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the best player in the league who can get a
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: shot off against a tough defense, which might be the case.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no argument there.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: But, bro, like there was a discussion going on where
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: folks were saying he was better than Chris Paul. And
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: I'm not the biggest Chris Paul fan, but I was like,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: we got to stop this. When does it stop, bro?
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: We got to reel it in because Chris Paul is, bro,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: Kyrie is not on Chris Paul's level.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: So I saw that and I found it interesting because–
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: The most important skill in basketball is getting buckets, right?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I think they look at Kyrie through the lens of
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: quote-unquote fundamentals. Handles, jumper, quickness, all of them. Not just
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the get it off in tight spots part, right? But
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I think that everything that everybody has ever called a fundamental,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: they could kind of see in Kyrie. Chris Paul is
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: just the– I mean, Chris Paul is the greatest floor
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: raiser I think I have ever seen, especially pound for pound. Right.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: It's six feet tall. Chris Paul could dictate the course
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: of a team in a game unlike anybody else. But again,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: this gets into what we're talking about, which is objective
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: discussions being clouded simply by how much you like somebody
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: like a guy from our day and age that I
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: talk about a lot is Rod Strickland. Right. Rod Strickland
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: is a guy that was a lot of people's favorite player.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Beautiful game for sure.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: But we wasn't saying he was fucking magic.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: It wasn't that. But we're here at About the Middle.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: We're going to step out for a second. When we
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: come back, I want to talk about part of why
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I think this GOAT discussion has become so prevalent all
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the time and get Tyler's thoughts on it right here
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: on the right time.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: Back here with Tyler, a.k.a.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Dragonfly Jones, talking about GOAT discussions in sports these days.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: And so one of my criticisms that I've had of LeBron,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: and I understand the people that think I hate LeBron now,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: in part because he keep doing something that I do.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Hate, right?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Which is he thinks that he's going to put together
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: a list. And at the end of it all, he's
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: going to present his case. And that case will make
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: it unquestionable that he is the greatest player of all time. Right.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Like being seen as the greatest player of all time
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: matters to him in a much different way. Not in
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: the way of Joe DiMaggio insisting upon being announced as
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: the greatest living ball player. Right.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: Not just as something you say when he.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Walks in the room.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: He needs it or it seems from here.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: He needs it to be declared that he's the greatest
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: player of all time because he said he felt like
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: when he won that in 2016, which, good God, what
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: an incredible run the postseason of 2016 was, right? He
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: felt like he was the greatest player of all time,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: and now he needs us all to say it. That's
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: when he started doing the stuff with putting a fucking
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: crown on his head and all that other stuff, right? But...
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like in ways he's a reflection of his time.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: And when I say that, I mean, we have access
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: to so much data, right? In fact, to the point
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that in my own life, I make a concerted effort
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: now to consume less data. And I'm sure you've been
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: here on this before. I have a podcast. We have
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a wealth of data on this podcast. I have to
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: make myself not go look at download numbers, right? Like
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I'll pop in and look at YouTube numbers, but the
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: availability of the data means we are always checking. It's
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: another way to keep us on the internet. Hey, let
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: me go check my portfolio. Hey, let me go check this. Hey,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: let me go check that. But there's always a number
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: that you can go check if you want to at
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: a given point in time. So since we have this
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: availability of data, People are constantly making their cases using data,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: obviously selectively, number one. And number two, with the acknowledgement
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: that people don't have a sophisticated understanding of statistics in
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: most cases. They just do not. So what happens with
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: the LeBron case, for example, is LeBron just keeps stacking
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: numbers on top of numbers on top of numbers on
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: top of numbers on top of numbers, whether the numbers
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: be how long he plays, how many buckets he gets, assists,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: whatever it is.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: And it keeps laying out this statistical case. And then
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: that becomes the weaponry that is used.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Like to me, the case for LeBron really got as
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: good as it was going to get in 2016. If
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: he had won another championship in like 2017 or whatever,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: then I think maybe we'd have kept talking. But after that,
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: there was nothing for me that you were going to
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: do that was going to add to the greatness that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: you added in 2016, right?
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: The same way, it's not a demerit to me what Mike.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Did with the Wizards. In fact, what Mike did with
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: the Wizards was low-key. A full season playing 38 minutes
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: a game at that age was bananas.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: There were all these things.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: But now, as we start seeing in rap, We got
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: numbers for everything, which then takes this away from being
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: a barbershop discussion to being one that gives.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: People at once.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: People are more unequivocal in their answers, but also often
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like using numbers.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: That don't really matter.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Numbers that for sure didn't matter for our generation.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: It, it feels like, like, you know, um, I'm going
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: back to what you said about how discussions are just
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: so data-driven, so number-driven right now. I listen to folks
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: talk about rap, and you see the numbers about stream
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: numbers and first week sales and it's like, bro, y'all
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: sound like y'all.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Are discussing your stock portfolio.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: How are you examining music through that lens? There was
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: a discussion that went on Twitter this weekend where someone
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: said that Jay-Z didn't have a higher commercial peak than
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: 50 and people got on her about that. Cause you know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: Jay-Z is just, he's on that list of people you
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: cannot talk about online, right? Like he's someone who makes
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: people irrational. And the fact that she stated something that
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: was indisputable, Jay-Z never had a higher commercial peak than
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: 50 cent. Get rich or die, try an era of
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: 50 cent and massacre 50 cent was, was one of
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: the biggest rap stars we've ever seen is a very,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: very short list of rappers who are as big as him.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: But the thing is.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: When that happened, I don't think any of us thought
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: that he took the crown from Jay-Z, regardless of the numbers.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Like Jay-Z still felt like the.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Top 50 might have been the hottest, but it still
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: felt like Jay-Z was the king of that rap shit.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: The the trick bag on that. And let me make
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: sure I get the dates right. OK, the trick bag
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: on that is Get Rich or Die Trying is Summer 03.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: February 03. February.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: But I mean, but not the release, but the run. Yeah.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: It's really summer. That's what we're going through is that
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: summer 03. November 03, Jay-Z, finger quote, retired. It wasn't
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: even really a discussion.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Jay-Z was asserting his greatest of all time case at
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: that point with a seven year career, which, by the way,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: at that point was certainly long enough.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Like when he said it's never been a rapper
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: this good for this long. We were like, you're right.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: We haven't seen a seven year run.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: Like Jay-Z debuted in 96 and quote unquote retired 2003
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: rap went through like seven different lifestyles you know parameter
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: shifts by then like the south emerged as the major
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: players at that time like you know what I mean
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: like it was just so many shifts that happened from
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: 96 to 03 and And usually, you know, from what
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: we saw before Jay-Z's run, it's like you had a
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: 2-3 album run at the most, you know, as a rapper.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: And when he said that no one's ever been this
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: good for this long, he was right at that time.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: LL Cool J has a Mount Rushmore argument, and he
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: has not put out a classic since he was 22.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: And that's not the point. You know what I mean? Like,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: he had hits after that, right? It wasn't, you know,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: you see all this hair on my face? Them songs
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: wasn't for me.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: You get me?
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't try to lounge with that motherfucker. I wouldn't
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: none of that. I ain't not.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and LL's career is, the bookends on that are
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: phenomenal because he was the guy, he was the 16-year-old
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: kid who Def Jam made their franchise artist and his
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: run ended, you could say the last hit he really
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: had was in 2004 head sprung um temperland production right
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: so you're the you're the you're the you're the kid
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: who built def jam when you came in the game
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: and then you retire going out on a like that's
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: just unprecedented.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Right within the middle by the way having in many
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: ways with all the acting and everything the career that
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: all these cats are trying to get yeah like we
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: under because Honestly, man, he turned his back on the
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: fellas there. That's really what it came down to. It
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: got to a part where it got to be hard
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: to be a homie, be a fella. And I hear
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: claiming him. He just blatantly told us, I don't care
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: what you think about me anymore. Yeah.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: And that's another shift.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: That that has been unique to me that has been
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: something interesting to me is because when him and cannabis
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: is going out of cannabis drove the nail into what
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: you mentioned 99 of your fans were high heels like
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: that was an insult to say you're making music that's
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: catering to the ladies and now online it's like oh
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: man you making scaring the woman music right like you
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: can't play this around woman i don't want to hear
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: that like that's the shift now That is crazy.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: That is crazy. I will also say, looking back on that,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: it is hilarious because cannabis wounded that man, right? LL's
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: response basically was, hey guys, I'm LL Cool J. Yeah.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: He's cannabis.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that Can I Bust album did not help Cannabis'
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: cause either. It was like, yeah, you are not LL, bro.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: You are not LL.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: It's funny, too, because it is very clear also that
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: LL Cool J still looks at Jay-Z as not LL
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Cool J.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jay-Z is his little brother.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: The story about apparently Jay-Z winning some battle against LL
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: and LL is just like, dog. I wasn't just walking
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: around with bars at that time. I was LL Cool J.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about? I went out here ready
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: to battle nobody.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: And he's telling this story 30 years later and.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this is exactly how you feel about
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Jay-Z to this day. He feel about Jay-Z like you
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: do some dudes you went to high school with. Like
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: cats I went to high school with, I'm going to
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: be who I was at high school no matter what.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Is that how it works?
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. LL's a very, very, very interesting dude, man.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I watched that documentary. Like that is the documentary that
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: I would watch and would thoroughly enjoy making because he was,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: let's build an MC out of granite. Let's build him
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: from the ground up. Let's make him, let's make the
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: perfect rapper in just about every way and that everybody's
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: going to love him. Because what made it so annoying
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: about his lip licking era was, homie, you ain't even
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: got to do that.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: They with you regardless.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: That's, I mean, but that's what he leaned into. And
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: the thing about it is like, Like, you know, for
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: all the ballads he made, for all the catering that
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: he did to the ladies, LL was still a tough dude.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: You ain't want no problems with LL, bro. You know
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: what I mean? Like, on the mic or outside of
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: the mic. He was with whatever you wanted, dog.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: And he was the first one. Him and Melly Mel,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: the first hip-hop bodybuilders.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Balco rappers, for sure. I'll tell you this, though.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: You ever see that Rap-A-Lot versus, I forget, it was
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Rap-A-Lot versus the New York dudes, but with Willie D,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Box Melly Mel?
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I remember that, yeah.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: H-Tow, represent.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: Willie D's another interesting dude who I would very much
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: enjoy a documentary on.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: It might have to be NC-17, but I would for
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: sure lock in.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Every year or two, I have An hour or two
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: long telephone conversation with Willie D where Willie D will
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: just call me to talk and teenage me cannot believe
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: that happens. And adult me is pretty shocked by it too. Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: That's the cleanup man himself.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Clean Up Man got some true game for you though.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Clean Up Man hit me with some true game a
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: couple of times. I was like, I am so fortunate
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: to have this opportunity to chop it up with Willie
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: D on the telephone.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine an hour, two hour long conversation
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: with Willie D. I can just imagine all the quotables
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: for that.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you more when we are not on here,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: but it could get to be pretty amazing. But I
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: do wonder, though, when people get to talking about this thing.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: So to me, I remember one of my good friends
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: from graduate school made this point because, look, first take
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: and all these other shows, they all they're replications of
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: the barbershop. Right now, of course, the problem is the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: barbershop is at once home of very spirited conversation, but also.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: ignorant conversation in part, right? And so my boy would
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: always make this point that cats would get in the
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: barbershop and they get to arguing about something and they
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: get to going back and forth and somebody would be like, well, yo,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: I can go look this up. And like, man, don't
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: go look it up. That's not what the point is
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: not to be correct. The point is just to argue
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: about it, right? But in the barbershop, as long as
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: we're talking about sports type stuff, right?
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: The argument is playful, right?
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: It's like, it's fun, but, and yes, somebody absolutely 100%
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: believes they are right and believes that somebody else is wrong,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: but it wasn't as tribal. I think that's the thing
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: that we talk about now, the byproduct of social media
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: is that it has in fact become tribal, but there
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: is something to the fact of somebody out there has
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: got the guy that absolutely for whatever reason should not
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: be there. So for example, My former professor, my advisor,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: my trusted mentor, Sandy Darity. For whatever reason, he has
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: got Jamal Wilkes as the greatest small forward of all time.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Not larry bird not anybody else it is.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Jamal wilkes good old number 52 never bothered to try
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: to argue this with sandy because one winning an argument
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: against sandy darity it's not really in the cards no
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: matter what but number two if you have decided that
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: jamal wilkes is the greatest small forward of all time
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: logic is not going to sway you from.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: This I have never heard that.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: So he thinks Jamal Wilkes is better than LeBron, better
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: than Larry Bird, better than KD.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: It's specifically Larry Bird.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I remember this coming up because when we've had these discussions,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: LeBron had not really asserted himself. So maybe it has changed.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe Jamal Wilkes is simply the second greatest ball forward
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: of all time.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm always interested in, especially folks from the older
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: generation of who they're, who, you know, the players they idolize.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: That's always a fun, you know, stroll to go down
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: for sure.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I try to be careful because as I'm learning,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: as I get older and the kids don't appreciate this point,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Hey brother, they was there.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: They saw it right.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Being there. And at some point they're going to get it.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Cause they're going to have to explain this to somebody
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: about LeBron, right? Like the Victor generation is going to
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: come around and they're going to have to, the LeBron
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: people are going to try to explain it. And then
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: they're going to have to stop and realize, Hey man,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I was there. Y'all weren't there.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: And they're going to become that which they despise.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Right. This is this is this is the the arc
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: of life that all of us managed to go through at,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: a given point. And with Jordan, classic example, the game two,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: 91 finals against the Lakers, up with the right, down
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: and around.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: To the left.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Every video replay of that, the kids could be like, oh,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: here's somebody else doing the same thing. Here's somebody else
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: doing the same thing. I hear you. But what I
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: can't make you understand is it felt like the world
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: stopped spinning.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: You weren't there.
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: You had to be there.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: You know, you know, another play I feel that way
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: about a guy that, by the way, is not necessarily
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: the GOAT, but had a somewhat similar claim at points
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and now gets left out of all these discussions is Dr. J.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: Megan, if you go look at it statistically, we make Dr. J.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Dominique, basically like, oh, high flying ducks. No, Dr. J.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: was doing it. They went to the finals. I want
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: to call it four, five times when he was with
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: the Sixers, three times in four years at one point.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: But that rocked a cradle dunk over Michael Cooper.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: And the whole palm when he palmed it and then
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: went under the backboard and finger rolled it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: But I think he had to be there, right?
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like when I try to play KRS-One
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: records to the youngsters to explain that this is the
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: greatest of all time.
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: It doesn't work. You kind of had to be there.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: And and it goes back to what I mentioned before
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: about about the youngins who are riding MJ's coattail to
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: discredit Braun.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: That's what I don't get.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: It's like you're here for LeBron, which it's so odd
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: to me that that folks are taking that angle just
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: to hate.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: But like I said, there's no rules now. It's the
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Wild Wild West, bro.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I just hate this. So much of it always goes
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: in that direction. Like, I think the worst thing to
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: ever happen to LeBron is I mean, LeBron's the best
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: thing to.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Ever happen to the format of debate television.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Because he was so interesting. The entire way he led
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: us to asking so many questions about the time we
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: were in, the times that he just left, the people
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: that had come that had crossed his path, all of
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: these things, right? He became so interesting. And then he had,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: it was 2010, right? 2010 changed everything. Game five and
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: game six in 2010, where it looked like he was
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: flat out mailing it in. Then with 2011, where he
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: flat out ran out of gas. I think that is
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: the explanation for what happened in those finals when it
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: came down to the end. What had to be the
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: most exhausting season in the history of the NBA just
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: finally caught up to him. And then everything, that four-year
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: run where he was in Miami, every game was a referendum.
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: Every single one.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: And if you actually want to make a great the
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: best argument for him being the greatest of all time
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: is no one had ever withstood even Michael Jordan. No
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: one had withstood as much scrutiny and the level of
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: scrutiny that Jordan withstood made him retire after winning those
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: first three.
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: LeBron went to eight in a row.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like during that Miami run, especially like the first
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: couple seasons, every game was a moment. Like Paul Millsap,
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: you think about him, the first thing that comes to
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: my mind is that early season game when he cooked Miami.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Like every game was a moment.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Like you said, so much of sports talk, television revolved
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: around that. Like every night it was do or die,
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: what's the referendum? Like we even criticized his performance in
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: an All-Star game.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Brother, I started doing Around the Horn in October of 2010, right?
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: So this is just before that Miami season. The Heat
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: were A1 on every show I felt like I did.
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: For four years.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: In a row you can't get a regular season basketball
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: game into a one of an espn show at this
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: point just because it was a regular season.
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: Game four straight years.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: And because they did the not one not two not
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: three after they won one championship it was like cool
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: i guess that's just the beginning huh Okay.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Nothing was proven. Nothing was settled. Nothing was adjudicated.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: We're going to be A1 again every single game.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: And it makes me wonder, you know, for the future
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: of the NBA, like, are we going to need the
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: face of the league, if you want to call it that,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: the greatest player in the league, are we going to
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: need that person to be as divisive, as polarizing as
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: LeBron is, you know what I mean, for it to
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: be good business for the league?
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I think the face of the league need be amazing. First, second, third,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: fourth and fifth. Right. Like I think that is the
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: that is the key. And they got all we never
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: forget this about the I say about the face of
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: the NBA. We keep acting like the NBA chooses it.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: The face of the NBA for a very long time
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: was Allen Iverson. And I assure you that was not
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: the choice of the commissioner. Right.
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: For better or worse, he became the face that the
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: league had.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: I think the league's problem is, and this is why,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: and I guess on a later show, I'll talk more
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: about this, but this league that apparently Maverick and those
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: guys are trying to put together, you ain't got no
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: team that nobody care about. Therefore, this will not work.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: It takes decades to make people care about a team
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: in their own market. Remember when the Arizona Cardinals used
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: to always play role games against the Cowboys? Because it
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: took 30 years to build a fan base and to
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: make people care. Right now, never mind the fact that
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: NBA basketball is really the only truly watchable basketball that
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: the world has to offer. College basketball used to be watchable.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: It is not watchable anymore. Like if it's not high
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: level NBA basketball, some things are very fun to do,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: but not fun for people to watch on camera unless
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: you are the best of the best. You know what
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: I mean? This is number two on the list of
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: things that fits that description. That's not going to do it.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: But I think you're right. As this goes, like whenever
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: LeBron retires, which may never happen, he's decided he's going
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: to go literally until the wheels fall off. It's not
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: going to be a school transition into who's next. And
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: I don't even know who the next GOAT candidate is
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: going to be.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: Brown might have one more team in him from the
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: passive-aggressive shit we've seen him doing at the Clippers facilities
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: taking pictures.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know, bro.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I don't know when Bron is going to
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: hang it up, but I don't know, man. I feel
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: like it all comes down to me thinking that Wimby
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: might be our hope here, bro. I think Wimby can
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: possibly save NBA discourse, man.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Here's what I think is going to make Wimby even
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: more interesting in the GOAT conversation.
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: He appears to be fascinating. This whole thing of going
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: and kicking it with the monks.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he went out there, kicked it with the monk,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: shaved his head.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Like, I'm going to tell you, you know, when I
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: first knew that, okay, like I see all the physical attributes.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: I see that, you know, all the physical talent. When
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: he was, during the All-Star game, when they were doing
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: the skills challenge and Aunt Ed was out there goofing
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: off and Victor was taking that super serious and they reached,
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: you know, they hollered at him about comments about that
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: and he was like, you know, I understand some guys
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: don't take this serious, you know, you know, they want
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: to have fun or whatever. And he said, and he took,
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: and he, he, he took a pause and he said,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: but winning is fun to me. And I was like, Oh, this,
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: this might be, this kid might be, Oh, this, this, this,
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: he might have it, bro.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I want to get better at French so that I
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: could get to a place where I can interview him
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: in French. Cause that's when he spit that real, what
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: he said about Rudy Gobert, that he will never win
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: defensive player of the year again.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Hey, he was going to make good on it until
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: he got injured.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Also, my favorite quote for him of all time, and
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: I don't remember if this was in French or English,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: but it was when he was in the Nike hoop
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: summit and he asked about Scoot Henderson.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: He's very talented.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: He would be the number one overall pick if I
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: had never been born.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Not if I didn't come out this year, but I'd
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: have never been born. That is just a wild place
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: to take it, man. But he's right. He's absolutely right.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: He turned out not to be right because Brandon Miller
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: was born. But at the time, he was 100% correct.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: We would have been talking about Scoot Henderson as the
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: number one pick if this alien had never been born
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of woman. Okay, cool. It would have gone.
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: But no, this is it.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I think you raised an interesting point that we get
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: to at the end here, which is when LeBron retires,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Do incessant GOAT conversations go with him?
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and the thing about it is, is
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: it feels like a double edged sword, right? Like it
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: feels like we overdid the GOAT conversations, but we for
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: sure needed to discuss LeBron in that, you know, capacity
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: as well. But where do we find that balance? Where
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: do we find that balance? Like I said, that we
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: had for MJ where He didn't need to win 12,
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: you know, to beat Russell, Bill Russell's 11. We knew
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: after three that he was the greatest of all time. Like,
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: where are we going to find that balance where, of course,
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: you're going to need the accolades, the accomplishments, the hardware,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: the championships, etc. But where does the blend of that
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: with the eye test come in?
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: And it goes back to the whole thing with rap
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: and the numbers where. where, okay, of course, you know,
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: to be the top guy in the game, you got
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: to do numbers as well. You got to have, you know,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: some number one albums, some hits, singles and all that.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: But the talent is what, you know, presides over everything else.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: Like I went, I don't know if we're ever going
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: to get back to that in rap and discourse, but
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: I think we can get back there in NBA discourse.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think part of what happened also with Mike
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: was like Bobby Knight said that Michael Jordan was the
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: greatest player he'd ever seen in 1984. Yeah. Now, Do
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I think that part of that was Bobby Knight needling
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Dean Smith for having not won a championship with Michael Jordan,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: whom they eliminated in the Sweet 16 that year?
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: Possible. Always on the board.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: But Jordan being who and what he was, he he
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: became basketball Babe Ruth. Now, Basketball Babe Ruth could have
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: been Wilt Chamberlain, but he didn't win enough.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Jordan then kind of became Basketball Babe Ruth, like the unequivocal,
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: like this is our guy, which then made it with
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: LeBron where. at once we were like oh he could
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: be that good but then that meant time to scrutinize
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: it right at every turn or whatever Victor is the
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: only one, I think you're right, that has the possibility
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: of coming out so hard that we got to entertain it.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: But I think for Victor, that will require hurrying up
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: and getting to the finals because we forget LeBron got
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: to the finals in year four at age 22, carrying bums.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that finals run in 07 was ridiculous. That roster
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: he won 66 with in 2009, go take a look
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: at them. Go take a look at that roster that
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: he won 66 games with in 2009. He had Ben Wallace,
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: 2009 Ben Wallace as a starter, getting starter minutes.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: Have you seen this thing that's been bouncing around where
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: it's like, show me the picture of your Celtic shack
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: and it'll be like Patrick Ewing in the magic or whatever? Brother,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: the one for the Cavs, it was like 12 different people.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: um and all not all of them played with lebron
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: but a lot of them did like it was it
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: was like sean kemp who was actually good when he
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: first got there um but like clive fraser sean kemp
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: actually could have thrown nate thurman on there if they
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to but after that it's ben wallace it was
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: shack uh it was sean marion it was some of
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: these cats that they brought in dwayne wayne derrick rose
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: all these cats they brought in to play with lebron later.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah i mean You know, you say Chris Paul
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: is perhaps the best ceiling raiser. I don't know, man.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, yeah, I forgot about that guy.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Bron might check that box.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I guess I think I'm thinking about it this way.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: Chris Paul is a ceiling raiser for the team, but
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, a floor raiser for the team, but also
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: a floor raiser for these individual players.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: Chris Paul turns Tyson Chandler into something completely different. LeBron,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: when he gets them cats, they never look better than
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: you thought they were.
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Like, you're always just like, damn, look what he did
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: with Mo Williams as opposed to I didn't know Mo
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Williams could be that good.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: Because the thing about LeBron is he doesn't need you
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: to play outside of yourself. He needs you to play
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: within his system.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Right. Like.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Like, I mean, so so often we talk about what
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: players are going to be a good fit for for Braun.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: That basically boils down to is this a guy who
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: can cash out on bronze driving kicks and knows how
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: to move without the ball?
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Like, that's it. You know what I mean?
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: That's all you really need to do. Like Braun is
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: a you know, he's he is a system. LeBron Braun's
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: brand of basketball is a is a system where.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Where you're going to. You know, you're going to, you know,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: you're going to.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Move without the ball. You're going to space the floor.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: You're going to, like I said, cash out on the
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: driving kicks. You're going to find your spots and you're
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: going to, you know, make it count when he finds you.
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: Like that's basically all you need to do to gel
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: with Bron. And if you buy into the system, you're
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: going to win 60 plus games. You're going to go
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: to the finals.
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: That's pretty much it.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: And now we'll just argue about it some more. That
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: is Tyler, a.k.a. Dragonfly Jones. Check out the Jenkins and
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Jones podcast available on Patreon. My brother, I appreciate you.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you, man. Always a blast, my dog.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: All right, man. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: for joining us here on The Right Time. We do
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: this three times a week. Ryan Brumley handling everything behind
• 52:28
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• 52:34
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• 52:35
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• 52:37
  Speaker 1: of days.
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: Take it easy.