Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / Australia’s Shadow Treasurer, Angus Taylor

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Australia’s Shadow Treasurer, Angus Taylor · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Get a humans, welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas, and at precisely 7.30pm,
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Australian Eastern daylight time.
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This Tuesday, the 25th of March, 2025, the treasurer will deliver Australia's budget.
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That may sound boring and dry, but in fact it's kind of Australian politics is big night
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of night.
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It's a bit like the state of the union is in America.
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People gather at fancy suarays, there are balls and people get dressed up and everyone
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wants to shake the treasurer's hand and the prime minister's hand and they listen to
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the speech and then they go out and drink too much and fondle each other until the wee
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hours of the morning.
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The journalists, that is, the politicians would never stoop to such behaviour.
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And the person who delivers this address is not unlike the state of the union in the
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United States.
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They head of government.
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The person who delivers the address is the treasurer, which is a very interesting kind of
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role in Australian politics.
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The treasurer is not merely the treasurer's secretary.
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The treasurer is also the person who basically has to defend the government's economic policies
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every single day in Parliament.
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This person is a bit like if you're a total political wonk in America.
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The chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, combined with the treasurer's secretary,
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combined with the vice president.
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Equally treasurers go on to become prime ministers.
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They are often seen as the prime minister in waiting in their party if they are ambitious
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and high performing and today's guest certainly is.
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And much like the vice president is not really involved in the day-to-day running of the
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US government, the deputy prime minister is not really that fundamental in guiding government
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policy.
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The person who is is the treasurer.
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Now this particular budget night is particularly important because we're coming up to an
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election.
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It's probably going to take place in May.
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We're going to find out this week or next, the precise date.
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And as a result, the treasurer will stand up before us all and presumably shower us all
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with immense bags of goodies so that we will vote for his government and not the opposition.
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If we do choose to vote for the opposition and polls are currently, it's a coin toss
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really which way the election could go.
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If we do vote for the opposition then the new treasurer would be today's guest, Angus
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Taylor.
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Because the shadow treasurer of Australia, that just means that he's essentially the treasurer
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in waiting and would become the treasurer if there was a change of government.
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He is a former cabinet minister.
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He was the energy, I'm not going to say the energy secretary, I've been spending too long
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in the United States.
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He was the energy minister under the Scott Morrison Conservative government which lost power
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just one election ago and has made remarkable strides, the conservatives in being even
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within shooting distance, given what a shellacking they got last time and most of my American
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listeners will understand this.
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But when we talk about the liberals here, that is a capital L liberal, meaning the conservative
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party.
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And when we talk about the coalition, that is the conservative side of politics, which
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is a coalition between the liberal party and the national party, which is a rural and
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regional conservative party, and the Labour Party is currently the party in power.
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Angus Taylor is a former cabinet minister, as I said, he's a businessman as well before
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he got into politics and also a Rhodes scholar.
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I've been quite selective about the politicians whom I invite on uncomfortable conversations
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because I don't want this to become a boring, self-promotional policy fest, but I thought
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Angus was interesting and I think he'll probably be prime minister one day.
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So please enjoy as much as I did this conversation about innovation, productivity, nuclear power
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and how annoying it is to do your taxes with the one, the only shadow treasurer of Australia
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Angus Taylor.
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I guess finally defining future of my life is to grow up on a farm and that being absolutely
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the center of my universe, that being a farming family.
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What did you farm?
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Well, we're sheep and cattle and I've still got two brothers to do that full time and
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the family for farming businesses still together and really, and that was here in New South
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as well.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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In New South.
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There was a centre of my universe and of course, went onto the university and then ended up at
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Oxford which was a very different place.
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You got a large scholarship?
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Yes.
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Was that a surprise?
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Ah yes.
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It's a surprise frein im dad already a broad scholarship.
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Bank constituents are always fond of saying well its good you'll fix the raised for us but
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is that a pun?
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But that's a bad pun.
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It's a very bad pun.
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Putter incluise owner here.
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Truth is that anyone who gets it is huge privilege and a huge opportunity to go to an extraordinary
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place.
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And what was it like?
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What was Oxford like?
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I mean, both as a school and a town.
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Amazing.
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I mean, amazing.
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It's a collision of people from all different parts of the world.
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It is elite.
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I mean, there's no question about that.
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And it's unapologetic about that.
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But from that, can come great things.
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You don't have to, but they can.
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And it's just a place where people are hungry to learn.
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I think that's the thing that struck me more about it than anything.
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And not just learn academically, learn from others.
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You know, I met two of my...
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Now my best mates, two American guys, one from Alaska, one from Oklahoma,
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and myself from country and New South Wales.
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And I suppose we connected because we came from what were more remote locations.
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And they've been friends for life.
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And we all shared that growing up and learning together, which I think is an amazing thing.
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It's all part of being here.
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And when you say that it was unapologetically elite in a good way,
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what do you make of the rebellion against elites that's happening at the moment?
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I mean, both in the Make America, great again movement, populism in Europe.
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Are you an elitist?
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Well, look, the truth is when you go to a place like Oxford,
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it's a huge privilege, and with it comes a huge responsibility.
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And I'm not sure that everyone who has that privilege lives up to that responsibility.
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I think this is a very real issue.
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And I see it.
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Remember, growing up in a country town, I live out in regional New South Wales near Golden,
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now I have as an electorate that is out of suburban and regional.
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I feel very acutely that you have a huge responsibility
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if you've been given a privilege like I was given.
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And I'm not sure everyone lives that.
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And I understand that deep skepticism towards leadership across the world now,
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whether it's leadership in politics or leadership in media, leadership in business,
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there's a lot of skepticism.
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And I think that's because not everybody has accepted the responsibility
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that comes with the privilege of that.
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I mean, it might be partly that.
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It might be partly because people are deranged by social media
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and they're expecting more than more of elites than elites can deliver.
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It might be a combination.
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No, I think it's very easy when you're sitting around in boardrooms
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or you're sitting around a cabinet table or you're sitting around
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in the elite suites of the media world.
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I like the point at me when you have the elites of the media.
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Oh, I'm not pointing this to you.
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But it's very easy.
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I think to become disconnected.
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Yeah.
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And I think people sense that.
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There's no question that the change in the media has meant there's more questioning of leadership
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than there was in the era of mass media.
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And that's to be expected.
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But I do think there's something beneath that, which is about people
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who have privileged taking responsibility.
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And I'm not sure that's always better.
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Yeah, but now you've got a phenomenon where you have the richest person in the world
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and other very, very privileged people who would ordinarily be perceived as part of the elite
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running campaigns, which are intentionally anti-elitist campaigns, right?
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It's like, you know, we're going to come in and smash up the elite institutions.
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How do you balance that?
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I mean, you're part of a conservative party, which has to balance both the interests
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of, for one of the better words, the top end of town, you know,
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the economically responsible kind of contingent of coalition voters
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with a sort of populist, socially conservative, anti-encoming,
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anti-encumbent, anti-institutional, anti-elitist wing of the party.
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And you're a roadscore.
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Well, look, I think the truth is the Australians and Americans for that matter
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are open to being led by people who have great privilege and have had great privilege
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as long as they understand the responsibility involved in that.
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And the day they're perceived to no longer being accountable to or listening to
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Middle Australia for one of a bit of expression or Middle America
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is the day when they lose that privilege.
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And I think that is completely understandable.
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I get that.
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Coming from where I came from, I mean, around our kitchen table growing up,
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there was deep skepticism of big government and big companies.
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Anything big really.
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Yeah.
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You know, there was deep skepticism.
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From my dad, from my mum.
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And we was drummed, you know, us from a very early age.
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We are small.
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We are fighting hard for survival.
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We're up against the elements quite literally, weather, prices,
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big companies, big government.
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And we have to fend for ourselves and we should be reasonably skeptical
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of what people in those lead areas think and the way they behave.
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So I completely get that mindset.
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Of course, in some ways, I cross the divide.
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And, you know, then went to Oxford and worked.
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Yeah, so why didn't you become a lefty?
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Honestly, if the worldview is like little guy
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against the big powerful forces, right?
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And empowering the little guy.
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Sounds very left wing.
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Well, it doesn't have to be.
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Because the resolution of that for me is that the little guy is empowered,
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takes responsibility for their life, for their business, for the opportunities
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and aspirations they have and gets on with it.
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And that's when the great victories happen.
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I mean, I saw that in my own life growing up.
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I saw that in the battles my parents had in giving us the opportunities we had.
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And I never could have gone to Oxford or done anything I did without having unbelievable parents.
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And I saw the power of a small group of people who weren't from the beginning of town,
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taking responsibility and being empowered.
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And I think they're the greatest victories in life.
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And I see this.
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I mean, I don't compare myself with J.D. Vance.
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But I look at a guy who came from the background he did.
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And how he went to Yale and worked in the US military.
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And obviously he's now the vice president of America.
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I mean, the thing that I think is so powerful about that is he understands
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and you can see it in the way he talks and acts and behaves.
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That he understands where he's come from and the importance of keeping side of that.
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Yeah.
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I mean, there is a criticism of him that he sort of has thrown under the bus,
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the cohort of people that he came up with, that it's like, you know, in Hillbilly,
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there's a sort of, there's a love, but also a, it's all their own fault
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that they're such fuckups.
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And if only they had pulled themselves up by their bootstraps,
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the way that I have, then they could have all gone to Yale.
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Which some people find unseemly or ungrateful about the ability of the few people
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who can get out of shit holes to get out of.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I'm not going to get into a character analysis.
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No, J.D. Vance, but just in your experience.
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I mean, I did read that book and I didn't have that very early on.
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Right.
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In fact, my mate from Oklahoma is a Democrat.
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He's a Democrat, interestingly.
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Yeah.
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Lifelong Democrat.
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He suggested to me that I read Hillbilly Energy Sooner.
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Was this right after Trump was elected?
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Yeah, it was soon after.
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This was a moment where we were all sort of scratching our heads and that was the ghost.
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So I read it.
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And I didn't read it the way you described it.
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But I can understand the mindset that what happens is when you go off and you work at the top
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end of town, and I've had the privilege of doing that, that you lose touch with where
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you came from.
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You know, every time I'd go home to Nimitabel, which was the town where I grew up, time
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a little town, the Stone Mountains south of Canberra, you know, Dad, my mum died when I was
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reasonably young, but Dad would always, every time I'd sort of walk into the kitchen,
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the fire was going, and there's always a skepticism of, have you solved that?
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There was always this undertone in the first conversation I'd have with him whenever
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I got back home, whether it was at least time or Christmas time, have you solved that?
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And you know, that was, I think that's an important question to be constantly asking yourself,
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and I do.
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I mean, I think it is important to dance with those who brought you to the party.
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Well, Angus, have you solved that?
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I don't think so.
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I mean, I seek to fight for the very values and people that I think are central to what
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has made Australia the great nation it is today.
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I mean, I think we are the most unbelievable country on earth.
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I don't think we always realise our potential, but I do think we are an extraordinary nation,
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but we're only that because of the people who have made us that.
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And I think it's those hardworking people who often small businesses, often, you know,
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not empowered at the beginning of town, who have gone on and done unbelievable things.
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This is what I've learnt as a local member of parliament.
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I mean, it's just the incredible people doing incredible things all across this country.
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And it's exciting when you see that.
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It's the thing, my wife always says to me, when I've been out in my electorate talking
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to people doing community groups or small businesses or whatever it is, I get home
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and she says, you're always happier after you've been out there doing this.
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Is that right?
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Yeah.
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And I think it's because you remember what it is that has made this nation great and why
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you're doing what you're doing.
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And so it is important to remind yourself.
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I didn't realise that your grandfather was the boss of the snow river, like an engineer
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himself, was that right?
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Yeah, he was a family law.
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Yeah, yeah, so his civil engineer fought in the First World War, was badly wounded at the
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Battle of Bullock Court, and then went on to being a civil engineer, working in dams in
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Scotland, New Zealand, and then ultimately in Australia, he was a South Island, New
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Zealander.
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Right.
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Fabulous.
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And maternal grandparents at Kiwis as well.
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Yeah.
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I mean, so basically he was in charge of the most important energy and infrastructure project
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of the 20th century in Australia.
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Would he be proud of the Coalition's record on energy and infrastructure between 2013
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and 2022?
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You know, I've never said this to anyone, but I tell you what he would be proudest of
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of all is that we're going down the nuclear path.
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So he had a vision way back in the 50s that what you needed was a combination of what
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snowy could provide, which which was on demand power at times when it was really needed,
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not 24 hours a day, but when it was really needed.
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You could combine that with base load, atomic energy as they called back in those days.
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And that was his view about where the energy system needed to go over time.
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It was a widely held view, by the way.
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Oh, you read the science fiction of the 50s and everything said in the 21st century
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is entirely powered by nuclear.
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But hasn't technology around renewables made that largely a fiction of the past?
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Well, I don't think so, because you still need base load power and renewables whilst they
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can play a role in your system and particularly say household solar can keep your lights on during
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the day and into the evening, particularly if you stick a battery on them.
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They can play a role, but that base load power that's critical for manufacturing, for
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data centers increasingly, I think it's much harder for renewables to play that role.
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And it was that mix that he saw way back when, in fact, when I was energy minister,
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I dug out articles from speeches in back in the 50s and 60s where he talked about exactly
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this.
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That's where the system needed to go over time.
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So I think he would be pleased that we're going in that direction.
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I think there's something you were flagging as energy minister with a conversation about
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it back there.
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Is there something that's happened in this term of government?
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Well, obviously the big move we made when we were in government was on Orcas.
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And so that was a big move.
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Yeah, but that's not an energy move.
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Well, except that it was nuclear and we have to remember, at that time, the notion of
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nuclear even being part of this country beyond powering a, powering a milky submarine is
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different from powering a town.
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Well, it's much less different these days than it used to be.
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I mean, that's what small modular reactors are.
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They're the same thing.
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That's what you, a nuclear submarine is powered by a small modular reactor.
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Yeah.
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And so increasingly, we're seeing convergence between the, no, I get it.
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But I'm just interested in the genesis of where the nuclear thing come.
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I mean, I've said many times, I admire the courage that it takes for a party to actually
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decide on something that isn't necessarily hugely popular.
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And so we're going to have the faith in it to be able to sell it to the Australian people.
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At the same time, it feels a bit random to some people.
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You know, some people are like, well, hang on, where did this come from?
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They were in power for quite a long time.
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You were the energy minister.
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Where was it back then?
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Well, I mean, as I say, you got to take people on journey.
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And I think that important part of that journey was Orcas, accepting nuclear submarines
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on our coastlines, in our ports, on a regular basis, as part of our energy, our defense system.
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I think that had to happen.
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I think that was a prerequisite.
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Whether that would ultimately lead to us going forward with a nuclear policy, we didn't
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know at the time.
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Right.
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But you could have a nuclear policy without Orcas and you could have a nuclear policy.
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But I think it was a natural progression.
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And as I say, it wasn't an orchestrated plan, but it certainly has turned out that I think
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that was the journey Australians needed to go on.
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So it's not something that you were pushing for as energy minister.
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It was something that I thought was, you know, a technology that needed over time to
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be part of the mix, but when that might happen, whether it was even going to be in my lifetime
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was not clear to me.
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And it certainly wasn't part of the plan.
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But I think it was a natural progression in the end from where we were when we were in
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government.
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I mean, these things are journeys.
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And I think our energy system has not always been a happy journey in recent years.
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But I think nuclear now is the debate this country has to have.
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And I think we've got to find a way of getting there.
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When you were an advisor on infrastructure in the private sector, I wonder if you learned
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anything then that you bring into the public sector.
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Well, I learned a lot.
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I mean, I was an advisor on more than infrastructure, advised, advised, you know, the biggest industry
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in New Zealand, the dairy industry there for many years.
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And that was a really exciting time to be in what was the fastest growing in biggest
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industry in New Zealand.
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And soon after worked in the iron ore sector here in Australia, again, the biggest
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fastest growing sector in Australia in that particular case, as well as working on
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infrastructure projects.
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And yeah, I think I learned a lot.
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I think I learned about what it takes to grow in the industry, which is also when it's
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a critical industry for a country, what it takes to grow a country, what it takes to
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create prosperity, what it creates, what it takes to create great jobs and opportunities
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for people.
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And I think those industries have done that for this nation.
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I've also learned that in places like Australia and New Zealand, those industries are often
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looked down on.
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People like to look down on the mining industry and agriculture.
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Some of the smartest best people I've ever worked with are in those industries.
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And they do unbelievable work.
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We should be incredibly proud that we've built economies on the back of those industries.
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The smarts in them, the technology in them is absolutely world leading.
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And what we've achieved in those industries is something I think we should be very, very
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tight.
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Where do you detect the lack of pride or the looking down?
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There's a lot of people who will say, you know, agriculture is an industry of the past
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for Australia.
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Mining is an industry we should move on from.
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I think that the left one mining there may be a climate component to that or the dirty,
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you know, extractive industry.
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But I don't think I suppose in the kind of let's make Australia a smart country in the
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21st century, there could be criticism of agriculture as what a low brow easy low hanging
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for it industry rather than no, there's a study that comes out on a regular basis about
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complexity in industry and how Australia is not complex enough because it's got too
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much of a focus on agriculture and mining and a number of the media channels every time
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that comes out, they run it and say, gee, we're not complex enough.
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Why aren't we outside of these?
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I mean, I think that's nuts.
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And these are amazing industries with amazing people.
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And they've been back bone of the country.
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I think there's also a green left attack going on on those industries, which you mentioned,
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including agriculture.
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I mean, I see it.
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I see that in agriculture regularly.
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And we're seeing that now with a push to force through the banks, very detailed emissions,
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disclosures from farmers.
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I mean, we as a farmer going to count the sea or the methane coming from a cow.
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I mean, this is, this stuff is nuts, but that's the push that's going on.
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I see.
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I see.
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And I think there's a sense that nice, clean, white-collar industries are what we should
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be focused on.
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I mean, they're an important part of what we're doing in this country.
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But we should celebrate these resources and primary industries as well.
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Yeah, right.
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If the coalition had won the last election, and if you've got an inflation to where it
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is today, from where it was in 2022, without a recession and without a major increase in unemployment
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or a decline in employment, would you be crying about it?
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Well, I wouldn't be crying about the biggest collapse in our standard of living in our
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history, which is what we've seen in the last two and a half years.
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And what I see on the ground in my electorate and around Australia every day, I go to the
23:17
food banks, you know, in cities and towns all around Australia.
23:22
And I see people in those food banks we've never seen before.
23:25
People with jobs, people with mortgages, and they can't put food on the table for the
23:30
day.
23:31
Is that because of inflation?
23:32
That is because of inflation, it's because of interest rates, it's because of high personal
23:37
income tax.
23:38
The combination of all of those things have meant that our standard of living, that's our
23:43
real incomes.
23:44
What our incomes can buy in terms of goods and services have fallen by 8% into a half
23:48
years.
23:49
That's never happened before.
23:50
No, but it's much less than it had been prior to that.
23:53
We've never been.
23:54
It's still less than you could buy in 2014.
23:57
But you'd be pretty happy with the inflation rate where it is today, coming off where it
24:01
was in 2022.
24:02
I would be extremely unhappy with that collapse in standard of living and it is very real.
24:08
In suburban Australia where people have got big mortgages, it is diabolical, what they're
24:15
facing at the moment.
24:16
If you're a young Australian family wanting to buy a home, you're just looking at it saying,
24:24
I give up hope.
24:25
How can I have a reasonable lifestyle and buy a home and pay the mortgage and do that
24:31
all that I've got?
24:32
Maybe I'm trying to start a business and build a business.
24:35
What chance have you got?
24:37
It's just, it is diabolically difficult.
24:40
I mean, that is difficult though, but they're twisting the dials on this is really hard
24:45
because you're talking about the people at the food bank.
24:47
Well, if you're going to give people, if wages are going to go up, then inflation's going
24:51
to go up and then interest rates go up.
24:55
As Treasurer, you have to be fiddling with all of these knobs, each of which impacts the
24:58
other one.
24:59
You're living in a fantasy world, obviously, if you want high wages, low inflation, low
25:04
interest rates, high growth.
25:06
Let me challenge that.
25:07
The one thing that can break that compromise, that can break that trade off, is the thing
25:13
we don't like to talk about, it is productivity, innovation.
25:17
It's actually, you know, people say, oh, productivity, that sounds terrible.
25:20
It means I have to work out.
25:21
No, it's the exact opposite.
25:24
In the last two and a half years in this country, we've got to work 6% more than we did
25:30
two and a half years ago to produce the same.
25:34
It's a collapse in labor productivity of 6%, which is very close to the collapse in standard
25:37
of living.
25:38
Any economist will tell you, productivity, standard of living, they're going to be very,
25:42
very correlated.
25:44
They always are.
25:45
So we have seen this situation where our economy is broken.
25:51
It's not working for people.
25:53
It's not working to ensure that people can dream about owning a home and do it, that they
25:58
can dream about starting a business and building a business and they do it.
26:03
That's what I grew up with.
26:04
I grew up in a world, you know, I used to go, we'd sit on a horse for days on end, chasing
26:09
sheep around paddocks with, with, with blokes who are in their 30s or 40s, didn't have a
26:14
degree.
26:15
You know, might have had a wall-classing certificate or something.
26:20
And you know, when I was young, they, they lived a pretty, you know, a pretty frugal lifestyle
26:27
they had to.
26:28
And then by the time I got into my 20s, a lot of these guys, you know, and girls were,
26:33
were, you have real middle class, they were able to buy a home, they were able to get
26:37
a head, they were even buying investment properties.
26:40
I mean, you saw what productivity and prosperity could do.
26:44
Just pause on productivity because I think this is a, I'm glad you raised it.
26:48
It's a buzz word that people, and when I say people, me don't understand really like it.
26:53
So I understand that productivity in my life looks like making a shopping list before
27:01
I go to the supermarket so that I don't spend an hour and a half wandering around the
27:04
aisles of the supermarket, wondering what I'm going to get, and I can get in and out
27:07
in 20 minutes.
27:08
And then I'm free to do other things, right?
27:10
That makes sense to me.
27:12
What's the analog for that on a national economy?
27:14
What is productivity?
27:16
Productivity is millions of little things at the local level that make life easier to get
27:22
things done.
27:23
I'll give it an example.
27:24
We're sitting here in a studio today that wouldn't have existed only a few years ago.
27:30
We didn't have the technology to do it.
27:33
You had to be part of a big media channel with lots of infrastructure, lots of people
27:38
around the makeup artists, everyone was there, Josh and, you know, it was really hard
27:44
to do what we're doing today.
27:46
We're not just doing it on audio, we're doing it on video.
27:48
It was completely unachievable, even 15 years ago.
27:51
Right.
27:52
Even 10 years ago, probably the costs were too high.
27:56
Now we can do it.
27:57
So the reason it means everyone listening to this or watching this is listening and watching
28:03
through a channel that they couldn't listen to or watch through even a few short years
28:08
ago.
28:09
And that means we get access to points of view.
28:11
We could never have got access to a few years ago.
28:15
We can do it more easily.
28:16
We can do it while we're walking around doing the housework.
28:20
Whatever it is.
28:21
I'm podcasting Angus, I'm with you, but the point is that that is an incredible example
28:27
of productivity.
28:28
Right.
28:29
But we're on a platform, people are probably listening to us through sub-stack or Apple
28:32
or Spotify, which are American companies, we're talking into microphones that are made
28:38
by I think a European company, where does Australian productivity enter the equation?
28:44
So you're pointing to basically technological progress, right?
28:48
And the reduction in cost of technologies.
28:52
But how do we do?
28:53
Why would we afford that?
28:54
It's just being able to do things for less, it's costing you less, I mean, this costs
29:00
way less than it would a few short years ago, and more easily too, you know, and that's
29:10
really exciting.
29:11
I mean, I look at the way we farm, right?
29:14
I mean, farming tech, so when I was a kid, we were always on a horse, I was on a horse
29:19
the whole time, every day, you get the horse infusing in the morning and that's what you
29:23
would do.
29:24
Now, I still love that, it's part of my hair, it sounds very authentic, very Aussie.
29:29
I don't give it up easily, but now, you know, we're able to use full motorbikes and
29:34
other vehicles, and they've got their downsides, but chicken get the job done much faster,
29:38
it's made it easier.
29:40
And that's a good thing.
29:41
There's things we regret when these things change, obviously, but it's meant you can get
29:47
it.
29:48
So is the easiest way to get greater productivity out of the economy to improve the technological
29:54
sophistication of supply chains and industries, or what is it that they, a lot of it is about
29:59
getting government and other barriers out of the way.
30:02
I mean, a lot of what stops people from being their best and realizing the most from their
30:08
lives is the barriers around them, and trying to start a business in this day and age,
30:13
you know, the red tape, you know, we're trying to run a business.
30:17
If you've got 20 employees, five employees, just, you feel like you need a PhD in industrial
30:26
relations law to do it, as well as occupational health and safety, environment, every other
30:32
bit of compliance.
30:33
I've got to say the biggest stress, actually, as the director of a small
30:38
business, so it's more media company myself, is GST compliance and the business activity
30:45
statement, which was a coalition, you know, introduction, like that, it's just a con and
30:51
the amount of the, the opportunity cost of the money that you have to pay to an accountant
30:54
to make sure that all your affairs are in order, and then you still worry about, have
30:58
I got it right?
30:59
Exactly.
31:00
That's right.
31:01
And have I got this bit wrong and you agonize over things?
31:02
I know.
31:03
I feel that I've been asked many, many, many times and, you know, it is, you're right.
31:10
So make it easier, make it easier to start a business, make it easier to build a business,
31:14
make it easier to own a home, make it easier to get your job done during the day.
31:18
I mean, this is how we've got to the level of prosperity we have as a country today,
31:25
that the incredible things that we have in this country that we take for granted have
31:28
been made possible by that.
31:31
And it's not all positive, there's, there's negatives that can come along with that.
31:36
But at the end of the day, we've got to encourage this.
31:38
This is how we can ensure and younger Australians get the opportunities that I've had in my
31:42
life.
31:43
When you think about improving productivity, could you jot on the back of a napkin three
31:47
things that you want to do in the first 100 days as Treasurer that we've had?
31:50
Yeah, I could.
31:51
I could.
31:52
Go for it.
31:53
Right at the top of that list is saying to our regulators in this country that ministers
32:00
have control over, it's your job not to just to make life harder for Australians, but
32:06
to make life better for Australians.
32:09
That's your job.
32:10
So when you make life hard for a small business, you make life hard for somebody in your job.
32:17
Make sure you're doing it for a very, very good reason.
32:19
Do you need to get rid of people in order to change that color?
32:22
Well, I see.
32:23
I see.
32:24
It's a bit dozy.
32:25
Well, you can describe it whatever way you want.
32:27
I mean, this is dozy about government efficiency, of course, this, this is about efficiency or
32:33
having a better economy and making sure government doesn't over reach it.
32:37
You're talking about changing the culture of regulators so that they're less punitive,
32:41
I suppose.
32:42
Exactly.
32:43
I think that's incredibly important.
32:45
Look, we've come through an era where the regulators and regulation by government has
32:50
been really in front of, you know, in our face, COVID, COVID did that.
32:58
And there were, there were reasons for that and that's, it's, it's our, it's our debate.
33:02
But what's important now is that regulators don't produce their prosperity.
33:09
They don't produce, they don't put us in this position where Australians can realise
33:14
their aspirations.
33:15
Okay.
33:16
So that's, I think right at the top of the list, I think we do have to make sure there's
33:22
not waste in government spending.
33:24
I think that is incredibly important because not only is excessive government spending
33:31
or overreach a cost to the taxpayer and we all pay for that, it is also doing things
33:38
that can overreach with businesses and the economy more generally.
33:42
So we've got to make sure.
33:43
Are there any particular things that you'd cut?
33:44
I mean, I assume that you think that reducing the deficit is important.
33:48
Yeah.
33:49
And you're probably not going to want to raise taxes, I assume.
33:53
Is there a particular area of spending that you would do to invest the deficit?
33:57
We've been clear that adding to the size of the public service at a time like this,
34:02
when Australians are really tightening their belts, when they're having to work incredibly
34:07
hard to make ends meet and struggling to make ends meet as we see in the numbers and
34:11
I see on the ground, adding to the size of the public service in the way that we've seen
34:17
in the last two and a half years is the wrong thing to do.
34:20
It's not what should have happened, but that's what has happened.
34:24
And so it's clear and look, there's a lot of good people in the public service and many
34:30
of them are doing an amazing job, but it only should be as big as is necessary for a better
34:38
Australia.
34:39
I don't think that's what a lefty will disagree about what's necessary, but I'm still
34:44
unclear.
34:45
It's always tricky when you're on the conservative side of politics because it feels
34:49
like a gotcha question, but it's really not, which is you have to spend less money, putting
34:55
aside waste and fraud and abuse and stuff like that, which is important, but we know we'll
35:01
be pennies, it's not going to be masses of money, it's not going to change the balance
35:05
of the deficit one way or another.
35:08
Is there an area of spending that's particularly right?
35:11
Well, I think I've done everyone, but I'll keep going if you like, down the list.
35:14
So we've...
35:15
Imagine the pub that you wouldn't increase hiring in the public service.
35:19
That's fine.
35:20
That'll...
35:21
We've also said the increase, but it won't work.
35:24
No, we've also said the public service needs to be smaller and we'll put out the numbers
35:28
in the lead up to the election.
35:29
We don't even know when the election's going to be, just yet, but we'll put out those
35:34
numbers in the lead up.
35:36
But look, there's a whole range of areas with opposed labour spending, not in essential
35:41
services.
35:42
We understand the role of essential services in Australian's lives, but many other areas
35:46
where we've opposed labour spending in the last two and a half years, over $100 billion
35:51
worth.
35:52
So we don't think now is a time where we should be building power lines across tens of
35:59
thousands of kilometres of rural, beautiful rural land when, in fact, we think that there's
36:05
a better solution for an energy system.
36:07
We don't think now is the time to be trying to solve a manufacturing crisis, which we
36:13
have in this country by giving big subsidies to manufacturers, make it easier for manufacturers
36:19
to do business, give them faster approvals, make sure that they've got an energy system
36:26
that is affordable.
36:27
That's the way, getting the fundamentals right is the way to have a good manufacturing
36:31
sector in this country, not giving them subsidies.
36:34
So we've come out hard against many of those measures, and all of this, if you step back
36:39
from it, it's saying, look, this country has got to where it has, because if the incredible
36:45
work of people all across our country, all across our economy, doing unbelievable things,
36:51
empower them, don't empower government, empower them to get on and do their jobs and to build
36:58
their businesses and do amazing things.
37:00
And they will, because they always have.
37:02
We've got to have faith in the Australian people.
37:05
As one of the examples of the heavy hand of government intrusion, you just mentioned
37:09
COVID, did we go too far in hindsight?
37:12
Well, look at this is one of those debates that can go, though, I do think the Victorian
37:16
government went too far.
37:17
Yes, I do.
37:18
Yeah.
37:19
I think that it was incredibly important for state and federal government to make sure that
37:27
we got the balance right across health, economy, and freedom.
37:31
And I do think it was a hard call to make.
37:34
I was sitting around the cabinet, tabled the federal level during that time.
37:37
Were you in Canberra or were you in your electorate, are you doing most of the—
37:40
Both.
37:41
And, and mercifully, in my part of the electorate, which was country-new South Wales,
37:46
we didn't notice much in the way of restrictions.
37:50
The new South Wales government was pretty good.
37:54
They got a bit more aggressive towards the end in parts of Sydney, but they were pretty
37:57
good.
37:58
And so—
37:59
And I assume you could drive to Canberra.
38:00
We were able to go to Canberra.
38:01
Yeah, we were able to go to Canberra.
38:02
So I could drive to Canberra, and I could get around my hometown of Galban, and it was
38:08
pretty good.
38:09
But I did come down to Melbourne at times, and I got to say that I thought there was
38:16
overreach going on.
38:18
And a lot of people did.
38:20
But look, it was a hard balance to get right at the time.
38:24
And I think the most important thing now is make sure we learn from it, and make sure
38:28
that if something else comes like, look, it's a good question, Josh.
38:32
I think there's still more to learn from it.
38:35
And I think—
38:36
And I suppose we haven't had a commission or something, like just to sort of lay it all
38:39
on the table and go, okay, well, when it happens next time, we're not going to do this,
38:42
or we will do that, will there be state border closures or not?
38:45
And there's still a lot of disagreement about whether or not that's a legitimate chess
38:49
move the next time around.
38:51
Yeah, well, and I think it still may be too roaring people's minds to get an objective
38:57
assessment of what was done well, and what wasn't done well, and what we could do better
39:01
next time.
39:02
I think that you're starting to see more objective assessments of it.
39:06
It's one of those things we're even when I think of it now, Josh, I don't want it.
39:10
I don't want to think of it.
39:11
No, it's a nice thing, isn't it?
39:12
I want to put it in the past, and just say, we're done with that.
39:15
I think a lot of people feel that way.
39:16
My brother's a psychologist, and he did say to me last year, isn't it amazing how
39:21
little people talk about the most traumatizing thing that has happened to our society in
39:31
our lives?
39:32
No, when was the last time someone talked to you about their actual experience of COVID?
39:37
We do not talk about it.
39:38
It is absolutely off the…
39:39
So I think we talk about it in intellectual ways, like policy ways, you know, do human
39:44
rights, and like the vaccines, and all that sort of stuff, but I thought it was a really
39:48
insightful thing.
39:49
We don't talk about this two-year grinding experience of loneliness and frustration,
39:55
and, you know, emotional rollercoasters.
39:57
I think we find it painful to talk about it.
39:59
I find it reasonable, obviously.
40:01
I have to say.
40:02
I mean, even though it was pretty good where I was, but, you know, I had four kids, and
40:06
they were at home, and I think it was very tough for them.
40:08
Much tougher for them than it was for my wife and me.
40:12
Are they a school age?
40:13
Yeah, yeah.
40:14
School and uni mix, and two at school at the time, and do they go into home, homeschooling?
40:21
Yeah, yeah.
40:22
So they were at home, and, you know, there were positive elements of that, which is we
40:29
saw more of them, but on the other hand, you know, I think it was tough for them.
40:34
And I think that's part of the reason that we don't talk about it is that no one…
40:38
People want to look forward, not bad.
40:40
And what was your relationship to the Prime Minister and the Treasurer during all those
40:44
days?
40:45
Like, how much communication was there?
40:47
A lot.
40:48
A lot.
40:49
I mean, they had to be.
40:50
We were in constant communication, and it wasn't easy to communicate, by the way.
40:56
Yeah.
40:57
Quite literally.
40:58
We didn't know what Zoom was until 2019.
41:00
Well, yeah.
41:01
And you kind of have caddum meetings on Zoom.
41:03
Right.
41:04
Yeah.
41:05
For obvious reasons.
41:06
Yeah.
41:07
But we talked a lot, and we had to…
41:10
So what do you do?
41:11
Is there a secure piece of software that goes to Israelis or Bells or something?
41:14
Well, actually, the interesting thing is that some of the very best technology for this
41:19
now is built in Australia.
41:20
Is that right?
41:21
Yeah.
41:22
And this is, you know, again, we don't give ourselves enough credit for what we do when
41:26
it comes to technology and innovation as a country.
41:29
Some of the very best security technology in the world comes out of Australia.
41:36
And we were using that and other things.
41:41
And I think that was an important part of making sure that, you know, we stayed in communication.
41:46
But look, as I say, it was one of those time periods that people really want to move
41:52
on.
41:53
Yeah.
41:54
Yeah.
41:55
How did you end up feeling about Scott Morrison and the whole portfolio and everything,
41:57
like after his decline?
41:59
Oh, look, I had a really wonderful working relationship with Scott.
42:04
I respected him.
42:05
I'd like to think he respected me and let me get on with my job, which he did.
42:10
And we did get on with it.
42:13
I mean, we had huge number of issues to deal with.
42:16
You know, we faced the prospect of every truck in Australia grinding to a halt in Christmas
42:25
of 2021 at the end of 2021 and just working through how we would make sure that we could
42:33
deal with that.
42:34
You know, these were very practical issues we're facing day-to-day.
42:39
People who couldn't pay their energy bills, you know, we were dealing with that day-to-day.
42:44
It was here and now and in front of us.
42:47
And it was incredibly difficult to get out of that morass and to think further ahead
42:51
because we were having to deal with the day-to-day.
42:53
But my relationship with Scott through that and Josh through that was strong and positive
42:58
and I found them wonderful to work with.
43:02
Did the election take you by surprise?
43:05
Look, I knew it was going to be a tough election as we went into it and it was a tough election.
43:13
And I think Australians, you know, they had been a lot of pain over the last couple of
43:19
years.
43:20
And if you look at incumbent governments and incumbent leaders through that period, around
43:25
the world, not just in Australia, well, Michael, you're way this time for the same reason.
43:29
It's possible.
43:30
Yeah.
43:31
There's not many of them left, are they?
43:32
They're really down to the very...
43:34
I know.
43:35
It's that very hard to think of it.
43:36
Do you think that's a new normal?
43:37
Are we going to see an increasing cycling through governments and the greater impatience
43:41
on the part of people towards governments?
43:43
Like if the endgame of an anti- incumbent move would be that every, you know, every government
43:49
only gets one term and then they get turfed out and another one comes in and then people
43:52
get sick of them and then there's another one come in.
43:54
Like, or do you think we will see another John Howard or Robert Menzies?
43:58
Well, look, we are seeing shorter ten years of leadership in politics, in business and
44:03
elsewhere.
44:04
I mean, that is happening.
44:07
I don't think that's necessarily a good thing at all, but it's a reality because leading
44:13
is, I think, harder than it's ever been.
44:15
You're subject to more scrutiny.
44:17
There's more different voices and people, you know, as I say, the decline of the mass
44:23
media we were talking about a bit earlier has meant that there are more voices out there
44:30
and it's harder to please everybody.
44:33
And so I think it's harder time to lead, but it makes leadership more important too.
44:38
The very thing that makes it harder is the same thing that makes it more important because
44:42
I think people are hankering for good leadership, even though they're less tolerant, I think,
44:51
of leaders than they were in the party.
44:53
And it's harder to know what good leadership is because you have to please so many different
44:57
factions and, you know, I wouldn't want to be at political level, but it's a privilege
45:03
and it's important.
45:04
And I think, I mean, I think the most important thing is that we see younger Australians wanting
45:10
to lead still.
45:11
I mean, when people give up on wanting to lead, we're in trouble because we need leaders
45:16
in, and people play leadership roles in extraordinary way.
45:20
One who you wouldn't think of as a leader can be a real leader in their workplace, in
45:24
their home, in their community.
45:28
Without that leadership, we lose a huge amount.
45:32
And we've had great leadership in this country at many, many different levels, not just
45:36
politics.
45:37
Yeah, I just wonder if it was a different game to lead a country that was more, that
45:42
shared more in common with itself than we currently do.
45:45
Like we becoming more divided, I certainly have a sense that as we consume media from
45:51
more different places, and there are upsides to this, of course, I mean, I'm a beneficiary
45:55
of it in some ways, but there are more and more echo chambers, more and more divergent
46:00
views.
46:01
It's harder and harder for, you know, a conservative Muslim Australia, Muslim Australian
46:06
to understand a Jewish Australian and for a transgender Australian to understand a conservative,
46:12
you know, Christian Australian, and I don't know if it's just a fiction that in the past
46:18
people were able to get along more, and because they all watched the same news broadcasts,
46:22
they had the same foundation of facts, but it feels more like hurting cats these days.
46:27
Yeah, look, I think there's probably some truth in that, but I think it's easy to underestimate
46:34
how much common ground there is, how much common, so growing up in Kuma, the 1970s and
46:39
1980s, and you talked about the snowy skin, so massive program, people coming from all
46:44
over the world, the biggest immigration skin that the country had ever seen, and most
46:48
of those people were coming out of war torn Europe in particular, from all sides of the
46:54
war in Europe, Germans, Russians, French, Hungarians, Dutch, Austrians, you got to
47:02
mention the Italians.
47:03
We had 100% in the Greeks, we had good cappuccinos in Kuma before any other town in Australia
47:08
was where, but it was amazing place to grow up because there was, and you know what, my
47:15
grandfather would always say, you know, he was running the skin, he would say, you know,
47:20
they'd get in a bar and they'd have this massive brawl and tables going everywhere, and
47:25
the next day they'd be working with each other as classmates.
47:28
They found common ground, and I think our challenge now as a country is to keep looking for
47:34
and finding that common ground.
47:35
It's the job of leaders not to divide, but to try to find ways to unite, I think there
47:39
are a lot of ways we can do that as a country, but I think it is harder, but that makes it
47:45
more important to Josh.
47:46
I want to do a rapid fire around, I'll just give you a word, and you give me a word,
47:50
all right?
47:51
So like a rubber or a shark test, kind of, kind of thing, or you can give me a couple
47:54
of words, but you know, just have a bit of fun.
47:57
So Robert Menzies, extraordinary later, the European Union, bit of work today, Josh
48:05
Roddenberg, great man, Elon Musk, doing good work, Clive or more, TikTok, look, use it
48:20
when you have to.
48:22
Capitalism, can deliver, populism, people asserting themselves, we have to listen.
48:32
China, a great trading partner, but we need to have a clear relationship.
48:41
The Australian Labor Party.
48:47
There's been a hugely important part of this country's fabric, but I think it's losing
48:53
its way.
48:54
That was way more than a word.
48:55
That was way more than a word, but I'll give it to you, I'll give it to you, and we can
48:57
come back to that, maybe, Orcas, Monumental, Oxford University, a privilege.
49:06
Companies that require staff to write he, him, or they, them, gender pronouns in their
49:10
dream, our signatures, haven't they got better things to do?
49:15
Meet Pies, love them, Scott Morrison, good man, private schools, a privilege, public schools,
49:27
amazing places, the Greens, no, one word, there you go.
49:38
That's the best sport.
49:39
You don't have to do one word answers anymore, you can elaborate on these if you want.
49:43
What's the best sport for me for your grand emperor of the universe for the purpose of
49:50
this question?
49:51
You get to snap your fingers and decree what the best sport is.
49:54
Oh, well, I grew up being obsessed with cricket, and I still love watching cricket.
50:00
I play occasionally, badly, in the media, police, game, movies.
50:06
You were a runner, but I love running, I love cycling, it's something I can still do
50:10
now, because it's harder to play team sport when you're a politician.
50:16
And I love cycling, I have to, I still race, and, you know, cycle racing, it's a bizarre
50:24
sport.
50:25
No one who hasn't done it can ever really understand how bizarre it is, because one moment
50:30
you're competing with someone trying to kill them, the next moment, you're working
50:35
together to try and take someone else out.
50:38
And so it's an amazing, and you want to track your men, or you're out on the road, I prefer
50:42
the road, road racing, but it's an incredible sport.
50:47
I love it, and it combines lots of things that I enjoy.
50:51
Is there any road cycling race that you would love to do that you haven't?
50:54
I would love to track around whether to a different, to a france ghost each year or the
51:01
hero, which is in Italy, or, you know, these, like, beautiful places.
51:08
But also the tour down under in Australia, down in LA, which I've never had the chance
51:11
to get into.
51:12
It's not, come on, it's no tour to france.
51:15
Oh, I think it's amazing.
51:16
I think Australia's, I think Australia's landscapes are truly beautiful and extraordinary.
51:24
We're talking about Adelaide.
51:25
Adelaide Hills.
51:26
I know, you have to be, you have to be nice to ourselves.
51:30
I know.
51:31
Well, look how, you remember, I grew up in, I grew up in country Australia.
51:35
Yes.
51:36
And those landscapes.
51:37
It was beautiful.
51:38
Yes, but it's, it's barren, and it's treeless much of the country around there, the
51:44
mineral.
51:45
Yeah.
51:46
And I find that, I love it.
51:48
I've just got back from the air peninsula.
51:50
Have you been out to, you know, the sort of, like, West Coast of the air peninsula is
51:54
absolutely gorgeous.
51:55
So, you know, desert, very arid, running up to these crashing cliffs with, you know,
52:01
Asia blue seas and the rolling waves of the, you know, the southern ocean coming in.
52:06
I love it.
52:07
So you are describing the beauty of Australia.
52:08
Yes, I am.
52:09
I am.
52:10
Was the British Empire a force for good or ill on balance?
52:14
Well, it, it did both, but it did a lot of good.
52:18
And we should never underestimate the good that it has done around the world, even though
52:25
many like to think that it didn't.
52:29
You can go to the past when and where do you go in your time machine.
52:33
You can come back.
52:34
I'm not on one words here.
52:35
I can go longer.
52:36
You can go longer.
52:37
Yeah.
52:38
Where would I look?
52:39
I'm going to be honest to you.
52:40
I would go back.
52:42
I would go back to the time of Jesus.
52:44
I just think that was the most profound moment in history for, for, for Europe.
52:55
And ultimately for the world, in the time of Jesus in Europe or the impact that it had
53:01
over time.
53:02
And do you think that the things that you would see on the ground would be the things
53:05
as they described in the Bible?
53:08
Well, that's, that's a good question, isn't it, John?
53:12
I mean, I'm Christian, so I would believe that.
53:16
And I do.
53:17
But, but you do believe when you go, let's put it this way, when, when you read a book
53:24
about a place, and then you go to the place, it's never quite the same.
53:28
Is it?
53:29
No, there is, there are things you pick up, there are things that you see, there are things
53:33
that you notice that you, you could never pick up from, from reading about it.
53:39
And so that's for, but whether or not the Tower of Peace is leaning exactly the way that
53:43
it looked like it was in a picture is of less consequence than whether or not Jesus actually
53:49
was resurrected.
53:50
Like that's important.
53:51
Yeah.
53:52
But, but I think I'm, I'm not saying I'd go back to test whether Jesus was resurrected.
53:57
I'd go back because I think that was such a profound time in history and the imprint
54:05
that has had it on the world since then.
54:08
You know, I, I think so much of the culture that we benefit from and the rule of law
54:14
and equality before the law, I mean, these things were born out of what, what were ultimately
54:19
Judeo-Christian values?
54:22
And I think understanding that is incredibly important.
54:25
That's not to denigrate other cultures and, well, the, the religion, what's that?
54:30
The Greeks were doing it a while back then.
54:32
Sure, sure, but I think that, that, the way that those events shaped history are really
54:39
incredible.
54:40
Yeah.
54:41
Yeah.
54:42
And yes, so that, that would be the one.
54:43
Okay.
54:44
You'd be standing next to the crucifixion cross.
54:47
That's the most unusual place you've ever been.
54:50
Gee, that's a, that's a, that's a good question.
54:56
Well, Oxford, I'd have to be, we were right up there.
55:02
We talked about it earlier.
55:05
Did you travel much while you were at Oxford?
55:07
Did you go to the continent?
55:08
Yeah, I do.
55:09
Yeah, of course.
55:10
Yeah.
55:11
Yeah, of course, and traveled around, around England and, and, and Ireland and, but Oxford
55:15
itself is an unusual place.
55:17
I mean, you know, how many places on the planet have been around for nine, a thousand years,
55:26
as one of the leading places of learning in the world?
55:30
Hmm.
55:31
I mean, it's, that's pretty unusual.
55:33
Yeah.
55:34
It's pretty amazing.
55:35
Yeah.
55:36
And we talked earlier about the privilege that that, that, that comes with that.
55:40
Yeah.
55:41
Should we call on our space?
55:43
I look right now, I don't think it's our top priority.
55:46
It's anyone.
55:47
I think we've got, I think we've got, um, I think we've got much higher priorities right
55:54
now to deal with in the shorter term.
55:56
What about the argument that it's an insurance policy?
55:58
It's not, it's not to say someone shouldn't be working on that.
56:01
I mean, get, not to silk out.
56:02
You're not, you're not having a crack, isn't it?
56:05
You're not going to be the first person on, on, on Mars.
56:09
Oh, look, it's not something I wake up in the morning thing here about.
56:12
All right.
56:13
I wake up in the morning thing here about our great nation and how it can be greater.
56:17
If you rerun history a thousand times over in how many of those worlds are your politician.
56:23
Well, you know, I don't do parallel universes all that well because I can't.
56:30
You just do time travel to, there's no, there's no point.
56:35
I felt a bit like this when we were talking about COVID earlier.
56:38
I kind of like to look forward, not backwards.
56:41
I am where I am and I seek to make the most of it and make the best of it for me and
56:47
others around me.
56:48
Are you a fatalist?
56:49
Do you think?
56:50
I'm not a fatalist.
56:51
No, I think human choice is really fundamental.
56:55
I think we make choices in our lives.
56:57
The thing we can control more than anything else in our lives is the choices we make.
57:02
Well, then why are you?
57:03
It's very hard to control other things, but we can control our choices.
57:05
And then why are you not intrigued by the idea of parallel universes and what you would
57:10
be doing in those alternative universes?
57:12
Because that comes down to the crux of like how much of your free choice has gotten you
57:17
where you are.
57:18
Because you can agonize too much about those choices, too.
57:23
I make choices about what I think is right and in my role, I think about what's right
57:30
for the country.
57:31
I've also over the course of my life thought about what's right for my family and my kids
57:35
in my wife and you do the very best you can when you make those choices and I value the
57:48
fact that I have choice.
57:51
All humans have choice, some have more than others.
57:53
In this country we have way more choices than almost any other humans in history and across
57:58
the world.
57:59
And I think that's a wonderful thing.
58:01
With those choices, I just think agonizing over them and thinking about parallel universes
58:06
you can get to the court has been that, I suppose that's why I'm not involved.
58:10
Do what you think is right.
58:12
What's going to happen when you die?
58:14
Well, as I say, I'm Christian, so I do believe in a life beyond this life.
58:22
And I think that that has shaped who I am.
58:28
Do you go to church weekly?
58:29
No.
58:30
I don't.
58:31
And I'm difficult to with my job.
58:33
I go to church a lot in my job.
58:35
But I also value.
58:36
Sure.
58:37
There's a chapel at Parliament House.
58:38
Yeah.
58:39
You could poke your head into it.
58:40
Yeah.
58:41
Yeah.
58:42
So I look at it.
58:43
And it's an important part of who I am.
58:44
I don't wear it on my sleeve like some.
58:46
And I don't.
58:47
I don't look down on anyone who does.
58:49
I think religion shapes us if we partake in it.
58:56
And Christian values were a big part of my upbringing.
59:02
And I've realized, as I've got older, how important they are to me, but so are Christian
59:08
beliefs.
59:09
And so I carry them with me.
59:11
What's the best opportunity that Australia has in the 21st century and what's the biggest
59:15
risk?
59:16
That will be decided by Australians who are empowered to get on and make those choices
59:22
we were talking about earlier.
59:24
It won't be me who decides that it'll be them.
59:26
This is the Australia I believe in.
59:28
It's an Australia where people have opportunities.
59:32
They can make choices and they can realise their aspirations and they will shape the country.
59:39
Those people will shape the country.
59:40
My job is to give them the very best opportunity to do that.
59:45
And so I can only guess where that's going to take us.
59:48
But what I do believe strongly is that Australians will take Australia to a great place.
59:57
You have a government set the tone and set the direction of all the time in all kinds
1:00:00
of ways, in a million ways.
1:00:01
What they choose to tax, what they choose to subsidise, how they choose to manage diplomatic
1:00:06
relations with other countries, what they do about education, what they do about primary
1:00:11
industry.
1:00:12
There are all kinds of ways in which they have a sense that not forcing people, we're
1:00:17
not authoritarians or communists, but having something more than just like Aussies will
1:00:24
figure it out.
1:00:25
No, but that's not what I'm saying.
1:00:27
I'm saying the job of government is to empower Aussies to make their choices and they will
1:00:33
decide what's right for their lives.
1:00:35
Now, will an Australian be the first person on Mars?
1:00:39
Because they've had an aspiration to get it on Mars.
1:00:42
You know, I'm going to persuade you after this.
1:00:45
Look, I think that would be amazing.
1:00:47
I think that would be amazing thing.
1:00:50
I think that would be what I do know is I think Aussies are going to play a role in leading
1:00:57
not just in Australia over the coming decades, but across the world.
1:01:01
I mean, we are an amazing group of people.
1:01:04
We are tolerant beyond most countries on Earth.
1:01:09
We are an incredibly capable group of people.
1:01:14
We have an instinctive can-do attitude, which as long as government gets out of the way,
1:01:21
we can do, we get on and do it.
1:01:24
We're fighters, you know, we love a good sporting contest and we've got embroiled in a few
1:01:29
wars over the years and done ourselves proud.
1:01:34
And I think we are great leaders because we often lead from a point of view of humility,
1:01:42
of not being about you, but of being about leading whoever it is you're leading,
1:01:47
your organisation, your group, your team.
1:01:50
So I think Australians who are going to play a role.
1:01:52
Of course, and we're seeing this now, I mean, everywhere I go, if I go overseas,
1:01:57
I see Australians doing absolutely unbelievable things as they do in Australia.
1:02:02
So that's what I think our biggest gift to the world will continue to be.
1:02:07
All right, well, my media training advice is that before you become prime minister,
1:02:10
you're going to have to work on the, what opportunities does Australia have answer in the 21st century?
1:02:16
The point is, but the important point is I'm not going to direct them as to which sector,
1:02:21
you know, Australians should work in.
1:02:23
That's their choice.
1:02:24
That's their decision.
1:02:25
Yeah, but people love a vision, people love an and an appreciation of the pitfalls as well.
1:02:30
Like, you know, is the biggest threat to Australia in the 21st century?
1:02:34
China is at the end of liberal democracy because of Putin.
1:02:39
Is it the destabilisation of the West because of Trump?
1:02:44
Is it, I assume you're not going to say climate change?
1:02:47
What are the, what's flashing on your radar?
1:02:51
The vision is the vision of 27 million Australians to live the lives they want to live,
1:02:56
to be able to start and build the business they want to start and build,
1:02:59
to be able to own a home, to be able to raise a family, to be able to educate their kids.
1:03:03
I mean, that, that is something to be excited of.
1:03:06
This is, this is where I think the elite world in some ways has lost connection with middle Australia
1:03:13
because when I get around my part of the world, that's what people want from their lives.
1:03:19
That's what they want the opportunity to do.
1:03:22
And yet, when I go into boardrooms, it's all about, you know, we're going to tell people what to do.
1:03:26
No, no, no, yeah, that's not, that's not our role.
1:03:31
Our role is to empower them and give them opportunity.
1:03:34
And I believe that very, very firmly.
1:03:37
And I think this debate about division for the country, I think it's an important debate.
1:03:42
But I think when we get down to, well, our vision is to colonise Mars or something.
1:03:47
And I really, is that it?
1:03:50
I'm not saying that Australia should be the country to colonise Mars.
1:03:53
I hear, I hear by announce that.
1:03:56
Do you think liberalism will survive the 21st century?
1:03:59
It has to, it has to because freedom, the rule of law, democracy, free markets,
1:04:08
those core institutions of our society, the family, you know, these, these, and the nation,
1:04:18
these institutions which have been fundamental to where we've got to where we are today
1:04:22
will be fundamental to where we need to go from here.
1:04:25
And if we lose them, we lose, we lose so much.
1:04:28
We lose everything that we've, we've, we've built up.
1:04:30
So yes, we've got to protect them.
1:04:33
We've got to nurture them.
1:04:35
They can get stronger over time and, and they can evolve.
1:04:39
They won't evolve through revolution, they'll evolve gradually.
1:04:43
And, but we've, we've got to make sure we protect these things.
1:04:47
Have the criticisms of liberalism that have come from the left in the past,
1:04:50
10 years, I suppose, the identitarian social justice left that says that liberalism has been a,
1:04:57
a fig leaf white straight males to wield their power over everybody else.
1:05:01
Has that been a, has that been constructive in any way?
1:05:05
I think it's been a dead end.
1:05:07
I think it's been a dead end because it hasn't taken us anywhere useful.
1:05:11
Tolerance of people, whatever their background, their race, their gender,
1:05:16
so on sexuality. Tolerance, you know, I think is a deeply Australian value,
1:05:24
a deeply Australian value.
1:05:26
But tolerance is not the same as the dead end that we've been going down in, in what you just
1:05:34
described, with suggesting that we should divide Australians based on, on race or other means.
1:05:40
I mean, that's, that's exactly the opposite of what we need.
1:05:44
Right. Now we talked earlier about, you know,
1:05:47
finding it harder to unite a nation. I mean, I agree with you. It has got harder.
1:05:52
But one of the reasons it's got harder is because we've gone down this, this dead end you described.
1:05:56
What's the worst thing about being a politician?
1:06:00
Well, you work hard and you weigh from your family a lot. And that's, that I think is the worst,
1:06:09
the worst of it. And last question, what's the best?
1:06:12
Meeting incredible people, incredible Australians wherever you go.
1:06:18
And that gives me enormous hope, Josh.
1:06:21
Hey, Gustavo, thanks for being here. Good to be with you.