Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Mauricio Di Bartolomeo | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Mauricio Di Bartolomeo | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:00
The only reason people buying gold is because I don't know
0:02
about because gold screaming to you that people lost face in
0:06
currencies. Gold is going parabolic at $22
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trillion market cap. The amount of flows you need to
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push gold to the levels has gone are very, very sizable.
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There's no single biggest opportunity in finance today
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than to finance people not selling the Bitcoin.
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And I think once people understand how far superior
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Bitcoin is as an asset to gold, it can do everything gold can't
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plus right. And so much of investing is just
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waiting for information to permeate through the markets.
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Yeah, welcome to another episode of simply Bitcoin Live.
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We're here in the beautiful Lugano.
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Literally, we're doing this during a sunset.
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You couldn't have asked for this better.
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And of course I'm joined with the one the only Mauricio, the
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Co founder of let in. Dude, thank you so much for
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making this man I appreciate. It thank you for having me.
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Thank you Big Guy in the Sky for this beautiful sunset
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background. We totally timed this right, you
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know. Hey, when it's meant to be, it's
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meant to be, man. Yeah.
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When it's meant to be, it's meant to be.
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So are you, man. How's life?
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I'm great, man. We just wrapped up another
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record quarter. Congratulations.
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Thank you, man. Life is excellent.
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We're driving and we have a lot of great stuff down the pipe, so
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I could not be more excited. So Mauricio, let's talk about
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Leaden, right, which is fantastic product.
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Obviously you guys know we're partnered with lead in, but I
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use it personally and it's addicting and it's fantastic.
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It's great, but it's Bitcoin back loans, right?
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And I think it's a great way for people to, you know, tap into
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their Bitcoin without having to sell it.
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And perhaps a lot of people are just not aware of that.
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You know, they're sitting on spot Bitcoin.
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They don't know that they can do more with it.
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And that's what you guys do. And you guys do it extremely
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well and responsibly I might add.
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Thank you. Thank you.
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Yeah, we so we offer dollar loans backed by Bitcoin The
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don't the loans can be dispersed in pretty much any local
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courtesy stable coins as well. And the main benefits of it is
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that when you take a Bitcoin back loan, most often it's not a
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taxable event. So you get to keep, you know,
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you get to get your cash without having to go through the tax
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taxable amount of selling it. And then you get to keep the
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outside. And we've been doing this for
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longer than pretty much anyone else since 2018.
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We were the first ever to do proof of reserves and we always
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stuck to a very conservative approach, which in the high
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flying days it was perceived by some as potentially boring.
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But as Lenin has weathered the storm and pretty much most of
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the people that were competing with us did not weather the
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storm. The market is now rewarding us
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as the as the kind of Bitcoin has researched and people just
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don't want to sell the Bitcoin. And I don't blame them.
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You know, we built the product because we didn't want to sell
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our Bitcoin. And it's great to see what that
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you build something that you wanted and you put it out in the
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world and then other people want it.
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And yeah, I mean, it's incredibly rewarding.
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And let's talk about that because the it's really
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interesting you're entrepreneurial journey by DCO
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because you've built it, you built something that you guys
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felt you needed yourselves. That's right.
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And it started out, I started out mining Bitcoin and when you
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start mining Bitcoin or you run any other Bitcoin business, you
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get Bitcoin income, Bitcoin revenues, but you have Fiat
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expenses and every time you have to go pay for, you know,
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electricity bill or equipment upgrades.
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It was so painful to sell the Bitcoin because that was the
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only source of revenue you had. And you know, at the beginning
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was very frustrating because we were mining and there was no
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financing options. And so we ended up having to
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sell the Bitcoin. And it was through that process
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when we were building the mine in Canada that we ran into the
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same issue in Canada. I had been running into the
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issue in Venezuela. But back then or back there, you
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don't expect the solution fresh Venezuela and Venezuela and
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rarely people build for that type of market.
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But then when we came to Canada, we had the same issue and we
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said, OK, well, let's put our heads together, let's do
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Canada's first Bitcoin back loan.
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And that was in 2017. The first one actually went on
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in 2018. And the beauty, the beautiful
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thing about Bitcoin back loans is that for the first time, I,
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I, I believe ever lenders can have uniform collateral that is
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the same from a Venezuelan or from a Colombian or from a
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Canadian or from an American. And that means I can underwrite
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them on the same terms, which I thought was fascinating.
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So we work very, very hard to bring our product or structure
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our product in a way that will be appealing to people in places
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like Venezuela. So This is why.
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Let us know our minimum loan size is $500.
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That's not a mistake, That's by design.
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Yeah. And why don't we require monthly
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interest payment? Again, that's not a mistake.
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That's by design. Because if you're somebody down
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there taking $1000 or $2000 to buy a computer and I'm asking
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you to wire me $10 a month for interest, I'm, I'm basically
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putting you up a hill that makes the product, but not as
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exciting. And so we did that.
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And to your point, we did it to solve our problem in the way we
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would have wanted to be solved. Because back in the day, there
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were a few companies saying they would do loans and they were
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doing ICO raises and supporting all sorts of tokens.
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We didn't really want that. We wanted something that was
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clean, simple, transparent, safe, and we didn't see it in
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the market. So we went on, we built it.
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And I want to give a shout out to Francis Pulio, who actually
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was the first OG Bitcoin treasury company that took out
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letting loan. And, and most people don't know
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this, but most of the Bitcoin treasury companies out there
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aren't public. They are small private companies
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run by people. They are landscapers.
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They are, you know, mechanics. They are developers or builders
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and they need financing too. They just can't access the
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public markets in the way Michael can.
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So it was him who took out the first loan back in November.
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And then from there we started servicing miners.
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We started servicing people that were working for Bitcoin
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companies getting paid in Bitcoin.
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And so people were coming to us for like 5-10 grand a month to
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pay rent, to pay their lease. And that snowballed into what
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it's become today. You know, Q3 just wrapped up.
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We issued $392,000,000 in those in three months.
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That's nearly all of our vote origination volume for 2024.
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Wow. And so it's just incredible to
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see how people are now understanding the product and
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they're also learning how to use the product a lot better.
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You know we had this, you know, crash in the crypto space, not
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in the Bitcoin space, but two Fridays ago there was a big
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crash bunch of liquidations more bigger liquidations than FDX.
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That was a crypto event that was not a Bitcoin event.
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Nobody had let and got liquidated at all.
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And so I think every time you have these events, people
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realize, huh, maybe I shouldn't have been using smoking chicken
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fish for A50X lever long right. And then and then slowly they're
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they're paved their way back to Bitcoin.
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Yeah. And so it's been, you know,
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again, when you put good things out in the world and you and you
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work hard, it can be rewarded, the market can reward you.
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And I think that's what we're seeing today.
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So yes. Yeah, man.
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And no, definitely dude. And, and again, like one of the
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things that fascinated me, what is you?
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I remember I, I'd switched from one provider to another
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provider. You were walking me through this
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whole process. And I remember like one of the
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things I, I, I, I, I messaged you or something.
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I was like, I don't, there's like no monthly payments.
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And then you're like, yeah, there's no monthly payments.
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And then I had no idea like that was even a thing.
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But that's like that was one of the things that stuck out to me
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the most that I appreciated the most as a business owner.
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Because again, you know, you take out a loan and then you
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have to pay these monthly payments.
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It kind of defeats the purpose of taking out the loan in the
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1st place. And then you guys are protected
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on your end because you guys have the most pristine
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collateral the world has ever seen.
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So it's like there's not really like it's obviously a win win
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situation for, you know, and there's different reasons as to
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why people take out loans, right?
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There's the D Gen. reason, but I think most people are doing for,
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you know, perhaps upgrading their lifestyle or investing
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into their business like that's what I did.
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And yeah, man, it's a service that is needed now for the
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people that for some reason haven't been watching simply
7:39
Bitcoin enough or haven't been on Bitcoin X enough or don't
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know who you are. If we got into an elevator and
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you had two to three minutes to explain to me what is a Bitcoin
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back loan, how would you do it? A Bitcoin back loan is a dollar
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loan backed by Bitcoin, and it is issued based on the value of
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the Bitcoin and the value of the Bitcoin alone.
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Your credit score does not come. We don't look at your credit
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score. We don't look at your income.
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We look at your Bitcoin. Your Bitcoin is your credit
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quality. So you can pledge $1000 worth of
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Bitcoin, borrow $500 and defectively keep the upset on
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that Bitcoin and prevent the taxable event from having sold
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that Bitcoin. So you can spend Fiat, keep the
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upset on the Bitcoin, and then when you get paid again, or when
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you recover, or when you make back the $500, you could pay
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back the loan and you can get back your Bitcoin.
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That makes perfect sense. And you did it in less than two
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minutes. So we're gonna stand awkwardly
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here in an elevator? Well, actually one thing I
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wanted to mention, you mentioned this idea of how lending is
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different, right? And when we came out with no
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monthly interest payments, we were the loan people that didn't
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do that, right? And we also build things like
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auto top up, right. Like even going back as far as
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2018, we came out with the 50% loan to value model.
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We came out with a 70% margin call or 80% liquidation
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thresholds. And we were modeling that
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because there was no precedent. And to see now so much of the
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industry converging on what we do.
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Yeah, it's a, it's a huge compliment.
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I take it as a huge compliment because you know, you're seeing
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other people try to offer big comeback loans and they're
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basically starting out and offering the same we offer and
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then slowly they have to curve back and say actually no, no
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monthly interest payment. It's actually we'll build out a
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top up. And so it's really, I mean, I
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think it's for the industry, right And.
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Well, it's an imitation is the best form of flattery.
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Exactly. So for us, again, we take
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immense pride in what we build. And I think the whole goal of
9:32
this thing is to bring dollar liquidity to the Bitcoin space,
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right? And I think by having the
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ecosystem grow and in many ways following our lead, that is
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going to create more capital coming into the space that's
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going to bid down the cost of capital.
9:45
And I think it's going to benefit everyone and make these
9:49
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today. So without getting into the
10:38
specific identities of people, what are some of the craziest
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stories that you've heard of individuals like, you know, in a
10:47
spot, for example, like, oh, they wanted to upgrade their I'm
10:50
sure you've had much better stories, but I want to upgrade
10:53
my garage or I want to do this, like, what are some of the
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craziest stories or perhaps some of the most inspirational
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stories that you've heard? Well, there's, there's such a
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broad spectrum of things people use our loans for.
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So one time I was chatting, I was chatting with Isa from Began
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Bay Steam and she was telling me how she wants to build a
11:12
circular economy in Maayaquita and she wants to build this
11:14
hotel and she wants to build this gym and all this stuff.
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And I remember talking to her, I said, if you're gonna finance
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that, we would love to be your financing partner.
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And we would like I, we want to be part of the gym like we, we
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want to be, we want to help you build that gym.
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And so she's like, let's do it. So we went out and did it and
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she built the entire gym without selling us hat and and now it's
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thriving and she posts videos and there's like a leaden logo
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on the gym and see people sit, snap it and send it to me and
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it's incredible. Another really random one, but
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this one actually highlights the speed in which Len operates.
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We had a client come in because her cat needed emergency
11:49
surgery. OK, and she didn't want to sell
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her Bitcoin, but she needed to get the funds that day.
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So she took her loan, she got the funds that day, took her cat
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to surgery. The cat survives and she kept
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the both the cat and the Bitcoin survive.
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That's that's another small one. We have a lot of people that
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take Bitcoin back loans to buy their dream property.
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So I've spoken to so many husband and wife pairs that come
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on a call with me. Wife's, you know, due for her
12:15
second baby. Husband doesn't want to sell the
12:17
Bitcoin, but wife wants bigger room.
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And so I'm, you know, sell us on why we should not sell our
12:21
Bitcoin. And so I walked them through the
12:23
how the product works and the benefits.
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And then, you know, lo and behold, they take out the loan,
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they buy the house. Then the husband happy because
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he didn't sell the Bitcoin. The wife's happy because they
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got the bigger space. That was happening more and
12:33
more. A lot of entrepreneurs.
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I had a guy a while back take out a loan to start a music
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festival and yeah, like the first concert of a music
12:41
festival series. And then we have another guy out
12:43
of Columbia who took out a loan to buy a a rental boat.
12:48
So the boat is like all decked out in Bitcoin and he is
12:52
basically a rental boat for people that want to go spend
12:54
time on the beach. And he financed the purchase
12:56
with leaded. And so there's so many things.
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In Venezuela, for example, we have clients sometimes that take
13:01
out our loans to pay for school, take out our loans to buy a
13:03
computer. So that happens, too.
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But again, it's such a broad spectrum.
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And then I'm sure I'm missing a few of these other exciting
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things. They're just not coming to mind,
13:11
like the top of my head. But those ones are, especially
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the real estate one, is, I find to be a recurring theme.
13:17
Yeah. And private Bitcoin businesses
13:19
that don't want to sell Bitcoin but want to expand.
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Really, that was our situation. Yeah.
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And so that is that happens more and more and more because more
13:29
and more people are realizing you should hold some Bitcoin on
13:31
your balance sheet. Yeah.
13:32
And again, you know, if you look at even the cost of capital
13:34
right, for these loans, Michael Saylor is borrowing dollars from
13:38
the market with SDRC at 10 and a quarter, that's Michael Saylor.
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Public markets. You know anyone, almost anyone
13:44
can come to Lenin today and borrow.
13:46
The rates posted right now is 12.4, which is not that far off
13:50
if he's considering he's billions of dollars in the
13:51
public markets and you're a $500 person out of Colombia.
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So I think it's super inclusive in that sense.
13:58
Absolutely. And people feel empowered,
14:00
right? Like you as an individual can
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use a tool that is in many ways very similar to what's the most,
14:07
the most sophisticated treasury company on Wall Street is doing.
14:11
And that's empowering, man, especially when you see the best
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thing about this product is that it works.
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Yeah, if if you if you just follow the just look at the
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chart and look at the math and look at the aggregate growth
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rate of Bitcoin over the last seven years and look at the
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average cost of that loan. Yeah, every person that has used
14:29
our products responsibly has benefited.
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Yeah, and that's why we're growing.
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But that wouldn't be growing if our clients weren't doing well
14:36
or benefiting from using the product.
14:38
The other product that we're seeing a massive uptake now
14:41
since we did the changes on the which we just reduced the
14:44
spreads of letters. So now buying something Bitcoin
14:46
that letters is 50 basis points, which is better than most other
14:50
platforms out there and you can use are loads to buy more
14:53
Bitcoin, which is B2X. Now this product is available,
14:57
you know, availability varies by jurisdiction, but in the
15:00
countries where it is available, we're seeing massive increase in
15:03
the usage because the spreads now make that product a lot more
15:07
interesting. And so again, this these are
15:09
what we see clients do things and we we build for what they're
15:14
doing. B2X is a great example.
15:16
When we first launched Lenin, we saw there were people coming to
15:18
lead and taking out a Bitcoin back loan for say, you know,
15:21
$5000 and they would come back with $500.00 of new Bitcoin,
15:25
take out a $2500 loan, and then they would come back with $2500
15:29
of new Bitcoin and so on and so forth till they reach them in.
15:32
And we sat down. I, I spoke to a bunch of these
15:34
guys and they're saying, you know, I'm just using your loans
15:37
to buy and buy more and more Bitcoin.
15:39
And so we got together and said, OK, what if we make that process
15:41
just a lot simpler for somebody? What if if you bring one
15:44
Bitcoin, we'll give you the dollars to buy the second one
15:47
and we're locked the two up in custody.
15:48
It's still 50% loan to value. It's the same underwriting as
15:52
everything else we're doing. And we saved the client a lot of
15:54
time and money. And so we built it and then
15:56
people came and used it. And so it's this really, you
15:59
just have to listen. And if you're willing to listen
16:03
and and deliver on that, then the market will reward you.
16:06
Absolutely. And Maddie, So walk, walk me
16:10
through the opening of the account, how fast you get money
16:15
into your account, Because I remember when I did the switch
16:18
again, bro, like, no, of course I knew you.
16:20
I don't think I would have done it if I didn't know you.
16:22
But you know, you go through the you go through the process,
16:26
right? And that's another thing also
16:27
that I love how you handle things.
16:29
What you see is that you deal with the customer yourself,
16:31
right? Like hands on.
16:33
I think that builds A tremendous amount of trust because they
16:36
know that they can shoot you a message or see whatever and you
16:40
got in there and you're like, all right, I'm going to take
16:41
care of this, which I think is very important.
16:43
But walk someone through that perhaps is not familiar with let
16:46
in what the process is like you're like, they're they're
16:49
hearing this and they're like, Oh my God, like, you know, I can
16:52
buy my cat a house or like a little cat house or a little
16:55
doghouse. Like, you know, what is the
16:58
process of opening the account? You send the Bitcoin?
17:01
How long till they get their cash?
17:02
Like what's the process and how long does it take?
17:04
Yeah, I'm happy to walk you through it.
17:06
So to open an account, you just have to head over to the
17:08
website, register your e-mail and password.
17:11
Same stuff as always. We are a regulated business, so
17:13
you do need to do KYC. That process takes 5 minutes.
17:16
If everything matches, we might have to go through a secondary
17:19
review, which might make that the KYC takes a day per SE if we
17:23
need to get any additional information.
17:25
But once your account is open, applying for a loan takes 2
17:27
minutes, and all you do is you put in the amount you want to
17:30
borrow. The platform says there's how
17:31
much Bitcoin you need to send. It assigns an address for that
17:34
loan, and then you can send that Bitcoin collateral at any time.
17:37
So say you apply for a loan and the application takes 2 minutes.
17:40
You're approved within an hour most often if not automatically,
17:43
and once the address is assigned, you send your Bitcoin,
17:47
call it another 10 minutes for a confirmation.
17:49
You gotta wait six confirmations when you send the Bitcoin to
17:51
Latin. And then once we receive the
17:52
collateral, we disperse. If it's a stable coins, it's
17:56
instant. If it's in Fiat, the average
17:59
time if you're applying during a weekday is 6 hours for you to
18:01
get the funds. So I'll give you an example.
18:03
I use my my own product because I always like to keep tabs on my
18:06
own product. Yeah.
18:07
And so I used the product not too long ago, I think it was
18:10
like 3 weeks ago. I submitted the loan application
18:13
on Thursday afternoon after banking cut off hours.
18:15
And by Friday at 10, AMI had the money in my account.
18:17
And so wow, it's a very, very fast process and it's, it's so
18:22
day and night compared to a bank, right?
18:24
Yeah. When you go to a bank, they ask
18:26
you for your credit score, for your income, they want to
18:29
review, they don't want to appraise the property or they
18:31
want to get the business plan for whatever it is you want to
18:33
go loan for. And this thing could take weeks,
18:36
right? And then eventually, weeks
18:38
later, pay Nico, you know, here's your loan.
18:42
But then then it goes on your credit history and they have
18:44
your personal credit and asset. And Lenin, we don't go.
18:47
We don't look at your personal credit history.
18:49
We don't look at your income. We don't.
18:51
We have the best collateral in the world.
18:52
Yeah. So it makes everything so much
18:54
faster. And I mean, the week's
18:56
processing times that, as we just discussed, that's in the US
19:00
that is like, best case scenario.
19:02
Yeah. Most people South of Texas don't
19:04
even get access to the bank. The bank just says no, but this
19:06
is not available to you. Or they'll take them through a
19:08
runaround wild goose chase, and then they'll say no.
19:11
And that's not like for us. It's like, do you pass KYC?
19:15
Do you have Bitcoin where you want the money?
19:16
Yeah, That's as simple as that. Yeah.
19:18
And walk me through also like money.
19:21
So the fact that I think you mentioned this, right, the only
19:24
requirements are KYC and the Bitcoin is collateral.
19:29
You don't care if that person's from Venezuela, you don't care
19:32
if that person's from any other jurisdiction.
19:34
Where else are you? Are you available in Africa?
19:36
We're. Available in parts of Africa?
19:38
Yes, services available in parts of Africa.
19:40
Why did you decide to focus on the smaller people?
19:43
Cuz like usually, cuz that's usually what you see with
19:45
Bitcoin companies, right, is that you know, they know, they
19:48
realize like, hey, I can get 10 big clients and.
19:51
Because that's what needs the product.
19:53
Yeah, right. Like.
19:54
Is it your background? Well, that's where I'm from,
19:56
right? Like I I work with like I'll
19:58
give you an example, the people that did the electrical upgrades
20:00
in their mines in Venezuela. These were contractors, these
20:03
guys, you know, got paid a couple $1000 a month, right?
20:07
But they also have Bitcoin and they also want the opportunity
20:10
to finance growing their contracting business.
20:13
And so if I make the minimum requirement of this, this very
20:17
large amount, I'm just going to be adding a drop of water into
20:22
this lake, right? Because people that have
20:25
hundreds of thousands of dollars probably already have other
20:27
financing options or they're not really, it's not their only
20:30
lifeline, right? And for me, it was almost, it's
20:33
a matter of principle, right? Like you, you want to be able to
20:36
take Bitcoin where Bitcoin is needed the most, right?
20:38
And that was what was exciting to me, right?
20:41
Like as exciting as, you know, building a product has been
20:44
exciting, but having someone from Venezuela reach out to me
20:47
and say, man, I'm so proud of what you've built.
20:51
I use it. It's helped me.
20:52
It's helped my family. I've had people that basically
20:54
started businesses or actually saved enough bitcoins so they
20:57
could leave Venezuela and they've left.
20:59
We hire people in Venezuela at Lenin, we've hired Venezuelans
21:04
and some of our employees have been able to use that
21:06
opportunity to lift their families out of a bad situation
21:11
in Venezuela and take them to the free world.
21:14
And I think to me, you know, I don't sell that right?
21:16
Like that's not a product that I can go tell the world about.
21:19
But I think all these things add up, right?
21:22
Like it's you're planting seeds, doing every little thing you're
21:26
doing is planting a seed. And people see through when
21:30
something is well-intentioned or when something is just you're
21:32
just saying it for the sake of saying.
21:34
And then we, we walk the talk, you know, we, we say we want
21:37
this thing to reach the emerging markets.
21:39
We're probably one of the few companies at all serving in
21:41
Venezuela. Yeah.
21:42
And, and again, this is a very close one for me personally.
21:45
But look at the country, man. Yeah.
21:47
Like, we, we need it. They need it the most.
21:49
They need it, of course. And, and listen, being regulated
21:52
also has its, its, its challenges in terms of
21:54
inclusion, because I can't service a market like Cuba, for
21:56
example. And it, it pains me when I have
21:59
people from Cuba reaching out to me.
22:01
Of course, now I cannot use service.
22:03
I'm a regulated business. I can't, I can't do sanction
22:05
countries. Yeah.
22:06
And I hope that that gets better and better over time and people
22:11
are able to use more and more people are able to use our
22:13
products. But if there's, if there's a
22:16
crack of light for me to get through that window, I'm going
22:19
to get we're going to get through that window.
22:20
We're going to get you the service we believe.
22:23
I mean, don't use it if you don't need it, but when you need
22:25
it, we want to be there. Yeah, absolutely.
22:27
No, I mean again, bro, it's it's extremely.
22:31
And for me, my personal experience was it was like I had
22:34
a too good to be true moment. And then like I had the bias
22:39
because you're Venezuelan and I met as well.
22:41
So I'm like, yeah, I like money. So he's cool.
22:44
And then but it was just like I went through like phases of
22:49
disbelief because I was using I not to name any names, but I was
22:52
using another provider and it did they it just wasn't as good
22:56
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23:56
Marisa, why don't you talk cuz I'm sure someone might be
23:59
thinking this, Why don't you talk about who you guys use to
24:03
custody of Bitcoin? Cuz you take that very seriously
24:05
and you guys have proof of reserves?
24:07
Yes. So by the time this airs, you'll
24:10
see our most our Q3 proof of reserves gonna be out and we're
24:13
lifting the bar for transparency even more.
24:15
We are not only showing you that all the Bitcoin that we have as
24:18
collateral is properly accounted for and verified by an
24:21
accountant, a third party independent accountant, but
24:23
we're also going to show you the full size of Lenin's book and
24:26
the collateralization ratio of Len's book.
24:27
And I'll, I'll say it now, it's $836 million at the end of Q3
24:31
and we want to be increasingly more and more transparent about
24:36
how we operate and how we keep Bitcoins safe.
24:39
So our main custodian today is Bitco, Bitco and that's where we
24:43
keep, we have two main avenues of funding our loans.
24:45
We funded directly from our own deposits or balance sheet, in
24:48
which case the collateral sits in Bitco cold storage at all
24:50
times. And we work with partners, banks
24:53
and other corporates to draw basically liquidity from when we
24:56
have more loan demand than dollars available.
24:59
So whenever we work with these partners a they are incredibly
25:02
we, we have a very stringent vetting process for even
25:05
considering a partner. And as part of that structure,
25:08
we basically retain title of the Bitcoin.
25:10
So the Bitcoin is held in trust for Lenin.
25:12
So it doesn't form part of any of the lending counterparts
25:16
balance sheets. This is important because in the
25:18
event of a bankruptcy, our Bitcoin is our Bitcoin.
25:20
If we repay the loan, we get it back.
25:22
It's carved out from their assets.
25:23
And the other very important thing we do is we demand that
25:27
the Bitcoin sits in a dedicated address, segregated address that
25:31
we can check and verify at all times.
25:32
And this is what we feed our accountant to come and do the
25:35
proof of reserves reports every single time.
25:37
And the Bitcoin always sits in that address.
25:40
It does not move contractually, it cannot move.
25:42
And that's basically how we keep Bitcoin safe.
25:45
And you know, I think there's, there's other flavors in the
25:48
market, especially now there there's like rehypothecation
25:51
practices or people doing funny stuff with the Bitcoin on the
25:53
back end so they can give you a lower interest rate.
25:55
And I think This is why it's very, very important that you
25:58
read the the legal agreements, B, you look at the trajectory or
26:01
the track record this company has and three, demand proof of
26:05
reserves. Don't, don't, don't think it's
26:07
cool to have it. And it's fine if they don't
26:09
demand proof of reserves if you haven't learned your lesson by
26:12
now with all the stuff that happened in 2022.
26:15
I actually, here's an interesting fact.
26:16
To my knowledge, not a single company that had proof of
26:19
reserves has gone bankrupt. And that to me says everything
26:22
you need to hear. Well, it's accountability,
26:24
right? Well, it's because you you have
26:26
to run a very tight ship to run proof of reserves.
26:29
I know it's just rolls of people's tongues, but the reason
26:32
most companies or the majority of companies aren't doing this
26:34
today is not because they don't want to or their clients don't
26:37
ask for it is because they can't.
26:40
It's incredibly operationally complex.
26:42
Yeah. And then and the other pieces
26:44
these companies are tacking on products left, right and center.
26:46
And when you're running proof of reserves, you need to give a
26:49
full, it's got to be holistic. It's got to include every
26:53
product on your suite, right? And sometimes, you know, if you
26:55
go out and you show a proof of reserve support that just has
26:58
the assets like the Bitcoin collateral, but doesn't have how
27:01
much loans outstanding you have on that, that's incomplete.
27:03
If you have a proof of reserve support that looks at even
27:06
assets and liabilities of your lending business only and
27:09
doesn't look at everything else, but there might be pockets of
27:11
risk around the business that's incomplete.
27:14
And the reason we are so passionate and loud about this
27:17
is because we poured proof of reserves at the foundation level
27:20
of Lennon. We were the first ones to ever
27:22
do it with the longest running proof of reserve strike record
27:24
in the industry. And everything we've built since
27:27
then has to fit because it has to be complete.
27:31
And when you try to do this retroactively, it's like trying
27:34
to make a concrete building have glass doors, right?
27:37
And you have to start busting through.
27:39
You might forget something. It might hurt the structure, it
27:41
might hurt this other product. And so that's why I think so
27:45
many people, like so many companies, are still lacking
27:47
proof of reserves, which to me is shocking.
27:48
But I think it speaks to how hard this is and how much
27:52
commitment you have to have from the entire organization.
27:55
Of course, this is operations, treasury, accounting, finance,
27:57
sales, everyone's involved. It also it only works if you
28:02
keep continue doing it. It's not a once and done thing.
28:05
And so to have that operational discipline, it's not easy to
28:09
build retroactively. And I hope we see more companies
28:12
come out with proof of reserves again.
28:14
I think we should lift the bar. I'm not trying to say no one
28:17
else can hit it, saying let's all hit it together for the
28:19
benefit of Bitcoin, of course. That's really the goal.
28:23
Yeah. I mean, it's the correct way of
28:24
doing it specifically now that Bitcoin is this transparent
28:28
Ledger, right? You know, the what El Salvador
28:31
is doing with they're literally making their public treasury
28:35
public, right? And then, you know, not to name
28:38
any names, but some countries are saying trust me, bro, you
28:41
don't have to do the trust me bro anymore.
28:42
That's the awesome part about Bitcoin.
28:44
And that's really what fundamentally changes the world
28:47
because then it's like it removes a very big incentive to
28:51
rug poll when a lot of people are watching the cookie jar,
28:54
right? Absolutely.
28:55
And I, I would argue that by not embracing proof of reserves,
29:00
you're not taking advantage of the biggest strategic difference
29:04
between lending against Bitcoin and lending against any other
29:07
type of asset. If I wanted to give you a proof
29:09
of reserves on my mortgage book, I'd have to send appraisers all
29:13
over America to basically confirm the value of those
29:16
houses. Yeah.
29:17
And the title on those houses that you can't do that.
29:20
Yeah. With Bitcoin, you can have
29:22
dedicated addresses. You can have, you know, agreed
29:25
famous with your counterparts and you can basically point to
29:27
every single loan document because it's data.
29:31
I could just go boop. And if you're, if you're
29:32
carrying a tight ship and you build a good process, it becomes
29:36
second nature. Yeah.
29:38
And I think that's what you need to strive for because we need to
29:40
show every other product, every other asset or every other type
29:43
of loan is inferior in transparency.
29:46
Yeah. And I think we need to, we need
29:48
to basically put that in the forefront of why we're
29:51
different. I completely agree man.
29:53
I think it's the the right way to build something.
29:56
It aligns the incentives between the client and the provider.
30:00
And then there's accountability. And then I think that creates
30:03
trust. And I think specifically in your
30:06
business, like trust is everything.
30:07
And then it's like you start thinking long term, you know, it
30:11
starts compounding, right? You know, and you guys have been
30:14
around for a while and the longer you guys are around,
30:18
right, the more trust is going to be established, right?
30:21
And the way that you guys are building, it seems like you guys
30:23
are going to be around for a very, very, very long time.
30:27
So I want this thing to outlive me.
30:29
I want this thing to outlive all of us.
30:30
Aladdin, I want let him to be something that can stand well
30:35
past I'm here, well past my kids.
30:37
Like I, I like saying this because a lot of people think
30:40
that the banks we see here today, like the JP Morgan's or
30:43
the Wells fargos, the only, their only secret sauce is that
30:46
they've been around for hundreds and hundreds of years.
30:48
Like in many cases, you know, more than 100 years, in some
30:51
cases, you know, over 5 decades. And the reason they built the
30:55
brand or reputation they have, I mean, let's let's keep aside the
30:58
fact that they got bailed out by the government here and there.
31:03
But the reason they've been around and there and people
31:05
trust them is because the banks have never let anyone down.
31:08
They've been there for GFC, they've been there for 911,
31:12
they've been there for all these other situations, and people
31:14
still have their money. And that's why people trust
31:16
those banks. And broadly speaking, when
31:18
people trust the US banking system, yeah, my banking system,
31:21
I joke in Venezuela or Latam, our banking systems are like the
31:24
World Cup. Every four years somebody blows
31:26
up like 1 country blows up, Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia.
31:30
And that's why people out there don't like holding balances in
31:33
their local banks. This is why stable coins are
31:36
eating the world, because they want to hold dollars.
31:39
They want to send dollars, hold Bitcoin.
31:40
They don't want to hold those dollars in those banks that have
31:42
let them down. They let their parents down.
31:44
And some of them charge a fee for holding dollars.
31:46
It's, it's, it's crazy, man. It's crazy.
31:49
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32:43
Store. So Mauricio, last time you came
32:45
on the show, not the time that I was in the suit, but the other
32:47
time you're talking about how the structure, I know you
32:50
remember. Oh, yeah, the structure.
32:52
You're talking about how the structure of the market has
32:55
changed. Now the institutions are here,
32:57
right? And we see that the previous
33:00
bull markets have been primarily retail driven.
33:03
And I remember you told me this in the beginning of the year and
33:06
me and Opti were sitting there like dopamine addicts.
33:09
Like, when's this dope? When's this?
33:11
When's this parabola coming? And you called it, you said,
33:15
Nico, like this is going to be a slow climb up.
33:19
Like this is an institutional game now.
33:21
Retail isn't even here. And that's exactly how it's been
33:26
playing out in 2025. And I expect to see more of the
33:29
same. I expect to see, if you look at
33:31
what's happening in gold right now, gold is going parabolic at
33:34
$22 trillion market cap. The amount of flows you need to
33:38
push coal to the levels has gone are very, very sizable.
33:44
And again, the people buying gold, you know, you're not
33:48
seeing people talking about, you know, crazy levered longs on
33:51
gold. Maybe, maybe some people are,
33:52
but it's not it's not like a a culty thing right now.
33:54
You're seeing some some videos of people lining up to buy gold
33:57
in Australia and places like that, that that starts feeling a
34:00
little like gold mania. But I think the reality is
34:04
gold's screaming to you that people lost faith in currencies
34:07
and the only reason people are buying gold is because they
34:09
don't know about Bitcoin. And I think once people
34:12
understand how far superior Bitcoin is as an asset to gold,
34:17
it can do everything gold can plus.
34:19
Yeah, Right. So I think it's just a matter of
34:21
time. And so much of investing is just
34:23
waiting for information to permeate through the markets,
34:26
right? Like the reason some people got
34:28
in early in AI and made money on AI is because they were closer
34:31
to it. They saw where they could go.
34:33
They invested in the principle that as other people understand
34:36
what this thing can do, there's only one path.
34:39
Yeah. And that's been the case for
34:41
Bitcoin always for us. The reason we built this product
34:44
is because when I found out about Bitcoin and I realized you
34:47
could use it as collateral to borrow dollars from it, I
34:49
thought to myself, there's no single biggest opportunity in
34:52
finance today than to finance people not selling the Bitcoin.
34:54
Yeah. And then that's been playing out
34:56
so far, right? I think what you're seeing in
34:59
gold is going to translate to Bitcoin sooner than later.
35:02
And I think the job you're doing trying to get us many people on
35:06
board so that they can stay afloat is very important for us
35:10
because the more people we get on board, the more social
35:13
capital we have to change things into the way we want them to be,
35:17
where we can lose and where, where I got a little, you know,
35:20
if you ask me about what keeps you up at night, like, you know,
35:22
not a lot of things, you know, thankfully, I'm, I'm very happy.
35:25
But I think a lot about this idea that if we don't get enough
35:28
people on Bitcoin and and this thing does what we all know it
35:32
was going to do, it's going to be really hard for us to to tell
35:35
people from the top of the mountain.
35:37
Yeah. Like, hey, guys, come, come get
35:39
freedom money, right. Without making, without having
35:41
them think, oh, you just want me to pump your bags.
35:44
Yeah. But that's not really it's, it's
35:46
all very, we're all doing it out of our own self-interest.
35:49
And it's on your best interest to do it too, of course.
35:51
And so I think it's important to get as many people on board as
35:55
we can. Not everybody wants to save.
35:58
A lot of people just want to gamble.
35:59
They want a 10X to exit their lives because they're frustrated
36:02
and they feel Bitcoin won't give them that.
36:04
But I would argue that that they're asking for a lottery
36:06
ticket. The only way out is the hard
36:08
work, right? Like these these things you see
36:11
on the movies where somebody got hit the lottery and then they're
36:14
starting to change their starts. That's not really how it happens
36:17
for most people. Most people grind, make
36:20
sacrifices, change your time preference.
36:23
And over time they, they come out and they, and they elevate
36:26
themselves. So I would argue that, you know,
36:28
everyone listening, you know, don't, don't go out seeking for
36:31
100X. Don't go out seeking for 50X
36:34
because those things are like chasing a, a Unicorn, right?
36:38
Even if you get it once, that doesn't mean that all you're
36:40
gonna get. Well, it's horrible if you get
36:41
it once, because then you're gonna, you're gonna think that
36:43
you could do it again, right? How's that worked out?
36:46
You know, how many stories are there from people that won the
36:48
lottery and they're broke again? And so it's because that's not
36:52
how you change your stars. You change your stars by
36:54
changing you, right? You don't change your stars by
36:57
getting an influx of cash and you're just keeping your bad
37:00
habits like. And and it's also Bitcoin has
37:02
that 10X in it. It's just a matter of like, just
37:06
focus on your craft, you know, focus on your family, do the
37:10
work and it comes progressively. You know that's that's how it
37:13
works. If, if I told you there was an
37:15
asset with almost near certainty that was going to go up 12% plus
37:19
year over year, if you think that's boring, you haven't been
37:22
in markets long enough. Yeah.
37:24
And so I think I would encourage everybody to think that Bitcoin
37:26
is, you know, not rising as fast as they think to compare it to
37:30
literally any other asset. And the answer would be right
37:33
there, staring at you. Absolutely my DSU.
37:36
Thank you so much for making this bro.
37:37
We literally got the sunset shot, which was fantastic and I
37:42
appreciate. You dude, appreciate you too
37:44
bro. Go to leadin dot IO Oh use the
37:47
link or Alex will get mad at me.