Latest / The Curve / RTC133: Can bill splitting be romantic?

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RTC133: Can bill splitting be romantic? · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything that you need to know to be better with your money.
0:06
Come and learn alongside me, Sophie Hallwright, a total beginner from the finance expert Victoria Harris.
0:12
So I've asked all of the questions you wish you could so that finance, investing and growing your wealth actually makes sense.
0:18
Yes, it's expert education but with promise will not be boring and in the wise words of sheer...
0:22
My mom said to me, you know sweetheart, one day you should settle down and marry a rich man.
0:28
My mom, I am a rich man.
0:30
Come and talk and learn and laugh with us because together we really can raise the curve.
0:36
Today we're talking about money.
0:38
Relationships and money.
0:40
And how happiness.
0:42
Yeah, finances can play such a massive part in a relationship dynamic and for positive reasons and unfortunately some really serious breakdowns of relationships happen over money.
0:54
And we wanted to do any episode to effectively help you guys navigate different earning amounts with your partner and with your relationship.
1:04
We've done a bit of research around what is happening around the world in different parts to see what are some of the most interesting sets that come up when we look into money and relationship dynamics.
1:16
Well in New Zealand, 20% so one in five people have broken up because of financial financial issues.
1:26
Yeah, I would have thought they would have been higher as well but still that's quite a lot.
1:30
Pretty similar in the UK and Australia as well.
1:32
The percentage of men earning more than women is about 70% in New Zealand and it's pretty similar in Australia and the UK as well.
1:42
The percentage of people combining their finances so in New Zealand about 70% of people combine their finances and that's usually around at the time of moving in together being engaged or being married.
1:56
And it's quite low in the UK and Australia actually fully combining your finances is about 35 to 40%.
2:04
Wow, so yeah Kiwi is much more interesting.
2:08
I think that's because we are a little bit colonial, you know, we're like tiny little New Zealand where everyone gets shacked up early.
2:16
I think that that kind of doesn't surprise me actually but yeah, I guess today we wanted to bring in Danny who was on the podcast not that long ago.
2:24
Danny was living in New Zealand and has now relocated over here which we love.
2:28
So exciting. And she's our commercial director.
2:32
And all three of us just speak about our experiences being in relationship with people where there was a disparity in earning and the way that we approach finances.
2:40
And just yeah, I think this is a conversation will come back to quite a few times but hopefully when you enjoy and yeah, any feedback as always, please let us know.
2:50
Danny, welcome. Welcome back.
2:58
I don't think we've had a guest person in studio in this close succession, have we?
3:04
No.
3:05
Well, we were just talking about this. We had a strategy day a few weeks ago and we started talking about the disparity between partners when you're in relationships and how it can affect the dynamics and anyway,
3:18
like this is definitely a podcast conversation. So thanks for coming on again.
3:22
Thanks for having me back guys.
3:23
How was what was the feedback like after the last time?
3:25
I got lots and lots and lots of personal messages.
3:27
Really?
3:28
Yeah, I had a quite a lot of people add me or send me messages on Instagram.
3:32
That's nice.
3:33
I asked for my email address so that they could speak to me and tell me about their story which was really sweet.
3:37
Really? Yeah. Wow.
3:39
I had quite a lot of people ask me for the spreadsheet that I use for budgeting.
3:42
But overall, people were just really receptive.
3:45
I think to the fact that it's not always like this pleasant journey to get somewhere and talking about that is quite refreshing I think for some people.
3:55
I think it is interesting the amount of people that came back to me versus the people who I perhaps thought would comment and then didn't.
4:03
And I can see that that would have made them uncomfortable because of the amount of vulnerability in that chat.
4:09
Also, people don't really know what to comment.
4:11
Like, yeah, what do you say to that?
4:13
Congratulations.
4:14
So you know what I like.
4:15
I just think that's really great.
4:16
Good on you.
4:17
Speaking about you all.
4:18
But I feel like some people don't know what to say so there's better to not say anything at all, which is not better.
4:24
Actually, for anyone that hasn't listened to that episode, it's raised in the curve 129.
4:28
The curve's new chapter welcoming Danielle Krum.
4:31
So if you haven't listened to go back.
4:33
But the reason we wanted to get you in today is one of the conversations that we were having between the three of us.
4:38
Is the idea of earning different amounts to a partner and how that reflects on dynamics, on how you approach finances together.
4:49
And all of us have had really different experience with that with different partners.
4:54
And so we wanted to open the conversation up and back.
4:57
I know you've done a bit of research around this.
4:59
Is there anything that you wanted to preface or kind of set the same?
5:02
Because we've also put this out on socials just to get some feedback from our community on how they split finances with that.
5:09
Yes.
5:10
So we asked a few questions to the community.
5:12
And the first one, how do you split?
5:15
How do you and your partners put the bills?
5:17
And the overwhelming majority was 50-50, which was quite interesting.
5:22
That really is cool though.
5:25
I actually think, wait, what are you thinking?
5:27
Well, I'm thinking that overall, the majority of women in less than men.
5:31
And you're splitting the expenses 50-50.
5:34
Interesting.
5:35
So we're getting disproportionately impacted.
5:38
And I'm talking, making a general assumption here.
5:41
That's so interesting.
5:42
I was thinking, cool, everyone's on the bandwagon of Sanny on their own to financial fee, but yeah.
5:49
And what other stuff came in?
5:51
Do you think, well, I guess a good flaw on question to that previous one.
5:54
Do you think splitting bills based on income is fair?
5:57
The majority of people said depends on how big the difference is.
6:00
Then about 30% said, yep, it's only fair.
6:03
It's so interesting because if I'm then completely honest,
6:07
I think that there's an element of me that if it was the other way round,
6:12
I would say, yeah, they should be paying more.
6:15
What do you mean the other way round?
6:16
Let's just say for me, I was in a dynamic with someone who was earning a huge amount more than me.
6:20
I would feel really hard done by if we weren't splitting things proportionately to income.
6:26
But if I was the one that was earning more, I would find it really hard to do that.
6:31
Is that fair or is that really pretty?
6:34
To split 50-50.
6:35
No, to do it proportionately.
6:37
Because I'm the thing and the reason I say it is because it's not just based on what you're earning at that time.
6:44
There's so many other things to consider in terms of assets, blah, blah, blah.
6:48
But I'm thinking like, you're living equally.
6:52
You're eating equally, again, making it misunderstood.
6:55
You're eating equally, you're living equally, you're using the shower equally,
7:00
you're using the lights equally.
7:03
So therefore, surely those expenses should be 50-50.
7:07
It should be irrelevant what you earned.
7:10
So if somebody though was earning $50,000,
7:13
and one of them is earning $100,000,
7:16
and that meant that the lower income party then had $25 of play money a week,
7:23
and the higher income party had $200, $250 of play money a week,
7:28
probably significantly more than that.
7:30
Do you think that's fair?
7:32
I think these situations where if the higher income earning person was like,
7:37
let's go to a fancy dinner, then of course they would pay.
7:40
Or if they were like, let's live in a fancy house with a huge mortgage,
7:44
then yes, I think those things are conversations, but I think like groceries,
7:48
I think like, I don't know.
7:50
Can we pause before we start?
7:52
Yes, because we need to give some context as to why we've got Danny and had this conversation.
7:56
So Danny, you've been in a few different dynamics throughout your life.
8:00
Most of which am I right in saying you had earned more than your partners?
8:04
Yes.
8:05
How did those conversations start?
8:07
From the beginning, did you set a precedent that things were 50-50?
8:10
What has your experience been?
8:13
I think it's hard to set the expectation in the beginning because it sort of takes away the romance.
8:17
That's the problem, isn't it?
8:19
You get into the conversations with people and you have dates and you kind of hope that it's...
8:25
I like the 50-50 dating aspect.
8:28
I don't expect people to take me on dates where they pay for everything,
8:31
but I do like the, you get this one, I'll get the next one.
8:35
So once you go into that sort of rhythm when you then end up moving in together,
8:39
which is when this becomes real, you could be 18 months in, you could be 12 months in,
8:44
and you've already created a dynamic that you then need to...
8:48
Reassist or restructure.
8:50
Yeah.
8:51
So all of a sudden you kind of peel back this layer of romance and say,
8:54
okay, let's step out of the black and white movie.
8:56
What do you earn?
8:57
It's funny you say that because the biggest, like the steps in our community around,
9:02
when you should combine finances, when you move in together or have to pay a mortgage.
9:07
Am I right in saying that you combined finances with a recent partner in the very early dating phase?
9:12
Yes.
9:13
But did you combine or did you just set up a joint account and put money in?
9:18
So we didn't have to have that dynamic more out for dinner of like,
9:21
you get this, I'll get this.
9:23
You know, it was just like, we'll just pay on the joint card.
9:25
It kind of removed all of that.
9:27
How was that conversation when you first had it?
9:30
Who brought that up?
9:31
I think I did.
9:32
I think there'd been a few other money conversations before there and it was,
9:35
it's just kind of made sense.
9:36
How much were you putting in?
9:37
What was it?
9:38
It was a purely for fun stuff.
9:39
Purely for fun stuff.
9:40
Like, yeah, there wasn't any rhyme or reason to the amount.
9:44
It was literally, I think it was like 200 a month.
9:46
That's interesting because when I was going through,
9:48
I didn't really prep for this conversation, which I'm sure will,
9:51
will feel throughout the episode.
9:54
But when I was going through my old monso because when I came back to the UK,
9:59
I just used the older cat that was still active.
10:02
And one of the most recent things that had been on there was somebody asking me
10:07
to split a coffee payment.
10:09
And it was somebody I was in a relationship with.
10:11
No.
10:12
Coffee payment.
10:13
Well, but Vic just said, she set up an account for money so that when they went out for coffee,
10:19
they could drastically just listen.
10:21
Yeah.
10:22
So it removes that uncomfortable.
10:23
But he was doing the same thing.
10:25
He was there.
10:26
You can request on monso.
10:27
You can request payment.
10:29
And we had obviously gone out for coffees.
10:31
This is years and years and years ago.
10:32
We'd gone out for coffees and he'd requested half of the payment.
10:35
I just can't.
10:38
It's so interesting, though, because I think,
10:41
and this is something that I've had a conversation with a recent partner about us,
10:44
the idea of, I know that money conversations should not be romanticized.
10:49
I am really on board with the idea that not everything in a relationship
10:54
needs to be romantic.
10:56
In fact, it's really important to have practical conversations.
10:59
And you are kind of in a business relationship with that person
11:02
as much as you are romantically, because you're building a life together.
11:06
Ideally, you have joint goals that you're working towards.
11:08
You have a certain lifestyle that you both want to keep up with.
11:11
But for me, I cannot help, but find it uncomfortable asking or arguing
11:17
or talking about dollars and cents.
11:19
I think it's very different.
11:21
If it's a hundred pound, $150, didn't it?
11:24
It's so different.
11:26
But I really like saying, oh, I'll get this.
11:29
Or for them saying, I'll get this.
11:31
But I also understand that those things really add up.
11:34
I don't know.
11:36
I'm really into minds about the best way to approach it.
11:39
But you can do that.
11:40
I'll get this in certain occasions,
11:42
even by having a joint account, because you can be like,
11:44
well, I'll get this on my card.
11:45
If you wanted to shout them, didn't it?
11:46
Yeah.
11:47
You know, but it's just like every time you go up,
11:49
so you go out for croissants and a coffee.
11:51
And it's like, oh, should I get this?
11:53
You know, you can just put it on the joint card.
11:55
I think there should be an expectation.
11:57
My preference is that the expectation is it's always split.
12:00
But that person then has the ability to say,
12:04
actually, now I've got this.
12:05
Yes.
12:06
Because then there's no pressure that either party is expected to pay for it.
12:09
But people then can be, you know, generous when they walk.
12:12
They can have that romantic moment.
12:13
They go, you know what?
12:14
Don't worry about it.
12:15
I'm just going to get this.
12:16
It's not a big deal.
12:17
And if it's not a big deal to that person,
12:18
we have to let it not be a big deal to them
12:20
and not then take that on, as you were saying.
12:22
So if you kind of get icky with it.
12:24
But perhaps only if somebody's paying for you,
12:27
not if you're the one shouting dinner.
12:29
Well, I think what happened for me was,
12:32
we've been using Monzo, which is where you split account.
12:35
You know, you split a bill, sing it to them.
12:38
And because I generally will do that in a big sweep
12:41
and I'll sing tin and run go.
12:43
The idea of shouting something gets really lost in there,
12:45
because you're just going, accept, accept, accept.
12:47
So if someone says, oh, this is on me or I'm shouting it,
12:51
there's, I think having a joint account in a way
12:55
makes that a lot more clear
12:58
when something has been paid for as a nice gesture,
13:01
opposed to just another expense.
13:04
Because, for example, when I was in Italy recently,
13:06
we were on the beach.
13:08
I decided to go get a pizza and some beers came back.
13:11
And I was like, just so you know,
13:13
like I wanted this, don't stress about this.
13:15
This is something like I just wanted to get it.
13:17
But amongst the sea of Monzo splits,
13:20
that gets sort of forgotten about
13:22
or kind of assumed that it was part of,
13:24
I find it really hard to differentiate
13:26
without a joint account.
13:28
And I think that's kind of the difference here.
13:30
You're doing it after the fact,
13:31
whereas if you do it before
13:33
and just put the money into the joint account,
13:35
then you're not being reminded.
13:38
It's a less, less admin.
13:40
You're 100%.
13:41
It's like, let's just put an ex amount a month
13:44
and then the default is to spend on the joint account
13:47
and we don't have to send bills to each other.
13:49
It's like, it's really forget.
13:51
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:52
I agree with it, but I don't,
13:54
I wouldn't put it into the dating phase.
13:56
I think that comes in when you move in.
13:59
Yeah, sharing the larger expenses.
14:01
Yeah.
14:02
Because that makes complete sense.
14:03
It's so interesting though,
14:04
because why?
14:05
What differences it make?
14:06
Because at what point do you not dating?
14:09
No, but you're sharing a life then.
14:11
Whereas you are not to say that you
14:13
should stop becoming individual people,
14:14
but things you do become far more intertwined
14:17
when you're in the same living quarters
14:18
as someone's living quarters.
14:20
I think you're living quarters.
14:22
Do you not carry a drama?
14:25
Do you not think though that there is similar?
14:28
If you've dated someone for six months
14:30
and you don't love together
14:31
and you speak most of your weekend together
14:33
and nights during the week buying groceries,
14:35
what's the difference?
14:36
I think it's just the time when it happens.
14:38
I think that everyone has to judge that
14:40
based on their own relationship.
14:41
There's no yes or no right or wrong answer here.
14:44
It's like when you're ready to have that chat,
14:46
but for me, anything before maybe a year,
14:50
I would probably say is too soon
14:52
in the relationship to be a joint account.
14:55
I think my last relationship,
14:57
I think we got the joint account.
14:59
Yeah, maybe 13, 14 months in?
15:01
Very specific.
15:02
And that's because we were going on holiday together.
15:04
So it made sense to then start putting that money
15:06
into our joint savings account
15:08
so that we could then buy the trip together.
15:10
But before that, it was dates and movie tickets
15:13
and such and it sort of felt more romantic,
15:16
I think, to just have each other chat that stuff.
15:19
Obviously the problem comes when it wasn't really 50-50.
15:22
Okay, so that's what I want to get into.
15:24
Did you have any more steps that you'd like to share on there?
15:26
No, I was just saying,
15:28
yeah, I mean, maybe I should have waited longer
15:30
to do the joint account
15:32
because now we're not together and I've got...
15:34
I know, but I've got an extra...
15:36
I think there's like an extra 20 pounds in there left over.
15:38
I'm like, we're here to my name.
15:40
Let's see, imagine if that happened,
15:42
if it was 2000, and it's in your name.
15:44
I would train for half back.
15:46
But 20, 20...
15:48
20 AMA fans.
15:50
Yeah.
15:51
That can go to my next spot.
15:52
But I don't think there is also even a point
15:54
that is like you're saying that is right for everyone.
15:57
It's like when it is organic,
15:59
that's when it should be right for you.
16:01
If you are having conversations about money early on,
16:03
and you find it easy to set up a joint account,
16:07
or split bills early on, then that's okay.
16:09
If you want to wait until you move in together
16:11
or you have children and you have big expenses,
16:13
then do it then. It's not like anyone's judging you
16:15
from when you are honest.
16:17
Well, people are, but they shouldn't be.
16:19
Yes, sorry.
16:21
Because they should be more focused on their own relationships.
16:23
I think that speaks to the partner you're picking, though.
16:25
If you are picking someone that reflects what you want in life,
16:29
conversation will probably be easier.
16:31
Because you'll be looking towards the same goals,
16:35
and have the same thought process
16:37
where possible within reason.
16:39
If you are choosing someone that is the complete end of the spectrum to you,
16:43
maybe that's an opposite's track thing.
16:45
My experience is that opposite's track
16:47
for a period of time, and then they stop attracting.
16:49
So I think there's an element of picking someone,
16:53
that has the same money mindset as you, which is helpful.
16:57
In your experience, just before when you said this can work,
17:01
if it's 50-50, knowing that you've dated people
17:05
that have earned less than you,
17:07
and this is not to any specific relationship,
17:09
just your general experience,
17:11
because you've been in some pretty impressive roles.
17:13
I think that you definitely would be considered a higher earner,
17:17
just as a general, not even gendered.
17:19
How have you found dating with the split?
17:23
Has it been a situation where
17:25
you've wanted to go on more elaborate dates
17:27
that they can't keep up with?
17:29
Or you pay for things that are more expensive?
17:31
Because I just wonder,
17:33
because it's probably quite similar sometimes
17:35
for some of your relationships too,
17:37
where you also really like nice things.
17:39
Maybe they want to go to Nando's instead of some nice,
17:41
you know, like how have you both experienced that?
17:45
Firstly, for anyone listening, Nando's
17:47
still has a firm place in my heart.
17:49
Yeah, yeah.
17:51
There'll be a lot of people that eat in Nando's.
17:53
I'm really nice.
17:55
I can't even believe there's a restaurant.
17:57
I thought it was like McDonald's.
17:59
It's not a restaurant in the UK.
18:01
It's a way of life in the UK.
18:03
It's actually quite healthy.
18:05
It's like checking and selling.
18:07
So to the point of liking
18:09
kind of more expensive restaurants
18:11
and more extravagant dates,
18:13
I haven't really ever wanted that,
18:15
which is, I guess, anyone that listened to the previous
18:19
episode will sort of understand that a bit more,
18:21
but it's just because I have not wanted
18:25
to have really bougie extravagant things for a long time.
18:27
It might have been on my radar one day,
18:31
but I'm quite a pizza beer player game pool kind of girl.
18:35
So that hasn't been much of a problem
18:37
because that's quite an accessible date,
18:39
you know, and I'll usually be the one that's planning
18:41
because I'm a massive type A.
18:43
And I will end up taking control of that situation.
18:47
So I don't give men as a rule,
18:49
a massive chance to take me out on dates,
18:52
if we're being honest, at the beginning.
18:54
But then I do sort of, over time,
18:56
expect them to come to the party
18:57
and my experiences that once they've seen
18:59
I'll pay for things at the beginning,
19:01
they don't.
19:03
They don't, what, sorry?
19:04
They don't pay for things.
19:06
So have you experienced
19:07
where you've dated people
19:08
and you have a more weighted towards you paying for things?
19:11
I've had, yeah, I've had relationships
19:13
where in the entire relationship,
19:15
I've been taken on, i.e.
19:17
they've paid for three to four dates in a number of years,
19:20
whereas I would have then paid for everything else
19:24
in terms of, we'll call it extra curricular.
19:27
So outside of bills and outside of rent,
19:30
anything else like holidays and spending money
19:32
and coffees and breakfast and stuff
19:34
was all kind of carried by me.
19:35
Oh, I've got to, I've been so better.
19:37
Did you ever approach that conversation?
19:40
Yes.
19:41
And what was it met with?
19:42
Always acceptance.
19:44
And never sort of, there was never any bitterness
19:47
and there's never any sort of anger or awkwardness.
19:50
And that person or people would then say,
19:54
okay, great, I'll try more.
19:56
But then nothing really happens.
19:58
But when you say try more,
20:00
was it not, it was not expected maybe
20:02
because they couldn't afford to pay more money,
20:04
but potentially in other areas,
20:06
step up is that kind of what you may know?
20:08
No, I'm always aware of what my partner's own.
20:10
It's a question I ask pretty early on in the piece.
20:13
Maybe by date, five or six?
20:16
What do you say?
20:17
I think it generally comes up
20:20
because I make it come up.
20:22
But I will talk about goals and holidays I want to go on
20:26
and then I'll ask them about their career plans
20:29
and sort of say, where are you at now?
20:31
And then I'll usually talk about what I'm saving
20:34
or what I'm investing because we always get into investing conversations.
20:38
But the way I've asked the last two people
20:40
I was in a relationship with was
20:42
after a certain amount of time, I would say,
20:44
oh, I'd be great to do this or we could book this trip.
20:46
But also, let me know if that's not in your scope
20:49
or in your budget.
20:50
That's who I'm doing.
20:51
Because I'm not across what you earn
20:53
and I give them multiple opportunities to let me know what they earn.
20:56
It's a really subtle, nice way.
20:58
You can tell us someone's uncomfortable.
21:00
When you're in a relationship
21:02
or any kind of friendship or really anything,
21:04
you don't want to make someone feel uncomfortable
21:06
about the disparity of pay
21:08
because it doesn't need to be a thing.
21:10
And you know, let's just go for a beer and a pizza then.
21:13
It's not a big deal.
21:14
We don't need that five-star restaurant.
21:16
I don't find that an essential.
21:19
It's not something that's on my radar.
21:21
But usually I find that if you do that a couple of times
21:24
and you say to someone,
21:25
did you want to go to the movies tonight
21:27
or are you saving money?
21:28
And you kind of keep giving them the opportunity in the space
21:31
to say, actually, I can't afford that.
21:34
Or you disarm the situation
21:37
and you just say, this is a super safe space
21:39
in this conversation.
21:40
There's no judgment here
21:41
and make sure that they understand that
21:42
because they've got options of this really easy night in.
21:46
We'll make something for $10 or we can go out
21:49
and we can have a night out.
21:50
Just let me know how you're feeling
21:51
or where you're at financially.
21:52
And then I think if you put that into conversation
21:55
as dating kind of goes on,
21:57
eventually people will just come to the party
21:59
and say what they own.
22:00
And then you can go great.
22:01
Now we can plan that.
22:02
I mean, recently I had this conversation with someone
22:04
and said, well, we're going on this trip.
22:07
Is this something that's within budget for you?
22:09
And then that was at the moment they said, yeah,
22:11
I own this much a month.
22:13
So this is completely fine for me.
22:14
I said, great.
22:15
And now I know that.
22:16
So I can factor that into thoughts
22:17
where I'm going.
22:18
Is that going to be out of the reach?
22:20
Is that going to be out of their goals?
22:22
Because if somebody's got saving goals,
22:24
or they want to buy a house in the next two years,
22:25
yeah, they might earn $85,000 a year,
22:27
$50,000 a year.
22:29
But that doesn't mean that they want to spend that money
22:31
on a dinner.
22:32
They might have goals that we need to be respectful of.
22:35
But then in other relationships,
22:37
if you don't have super high expectations
22:39
of very expensive elaborate dates,
22:42
how has it played out before you said,
22:45
you've been in some relationships
22:47
where they might have gone on or paid for two
22:49
or three or four dates within a couple of year period?
22:51
Yeah.
22:52
Is that even cheaper dates?
22:53
Is that bear and pizza?
22:55
Or is that because what I'm trying to understand
22:58
is how you got to a point where you say $50,000 is preferable
23:03
until you're in a living situation
23:05
or something more serious.
23:07
How with other dynamics has it got to the point where
23:11
the most extracurricular things about expenses
23:14
you're expected to pay?
23:16
I think I have accepted behavior
23:19
that has created tendencies and patterns
23:23
in relationships, to be honest.
23:25
I always want to contribute and I want to give.
23:28
And I think that's been taken advantage of.
23:30
Quite a lot.
23:31
So there would have been times
23:33
where that's been brought up in past relationships
23:35
but oftentimes it sort of hurts.
23:39
You kind of just go,
23:40
oh, if they wanted to, they would.
23:42
You just wait for this moment to happen
23:44
and then you don't realise that three years has passed.
23:46
And they haven't.
23:47
They haven't contributed to the savings.
23:49
They haven't contributed to any investments.
23:52
They haven't taken you out for dinner.
23:54
And then you sort of get a bit sour or like a bit.
23:57
Yeah, it builds resentment, doesn't it?
23:59
That's why speaking so openly about money
24:01
can still be done.
24:02
I think in a relationship format
24:04
that doesn't kill the romance
24:05
because not speaking about money
24:07
really will kill the romance.
24:08
It's so true.
24:09
Did you feel like every time you paid for something
24:11
there was like a little bit of a like,
24:13
oh no, like every time you paid for coffee
24:15
every time you paid for lunch every time?
24:16
For me?
24:17
Yeah.
24:18
Towards the end?
24:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:20
You start to go, I think that's the thing.
24:22
I think that's the thing is like with money
24:24
we use it so many times throughout the day
24:26
or the week or the month.
24:27
It is this constant reminder of the misalignment.
24:30
And it's not just like one big thing
24:33
of like buying a house or going on a holiday
24:35
it's like every single day.
24:37
I think if you are going to be in a relationship
24:39
with someone who has a completely different income bracket
24:41
to you though,
24:42
and maybe that's because they're doing part-time work
24:44
maybe because they're caring for a family member
24:46
whatever it might be,
24:47
it's important to remember unpaid work.
24:50
Yes.
24:51
Which is the household contributions
24:54
and the cleaning and life admin.
24:57
I really do think that stacks up
24:59
and in jobs that I've had before
25:00
where I haven't been able to really focus
25:02
on anything other than that role
25:04
in order to even be in that income bracket.
25:06
There's a payoff.
25:07
And I couldn't leave anything that I would appreciate more
25:11
or I couldn't even put a dollar cost on it.
25:14
If I came home,
25:15
if I was the breed winner
25:17
or the highest income earner
25:19
and I was coming home
25:21
and my partner was organizing cooking,
25:25
finding really healthy ingredients
25:28
for me to be able to fuel my body
25:30
and my mind to take that admin off of my plate
25:34
so that I'm still looking up to myself
25:36
from a health perspective.
25:37
I could not put a dollar value on how much I would appreciate that.
25:40
And I think it's also worth saying
25:42
we're not saying that you have to go into a relationship
25:44
earning the same as your partner.
25:46
I think it's more what we're saying is like
25:49
just having those conversations
25:51
and realizing that everyone's going to be,
25:53
you're not going to find someone
25:54
a partner that's earning exactly the same
25:56
as you would exactly the same spending habits
25:58
and getting the same goals.
25:59
But that's what you talk through and get through
26:01
and find something that works for both of you.
26:04
But that's a values system.
26:06
Yeah, yeah.
26:07
Finding a partner that resonates with your values
26:09
I think is what you're getting at there.
26:11
And that's really important
26:12
because it means that those conversations can happen
26:14
because there's trust on the table
26:16
and you both see things in similar ways.
26:19
And I think it's really sad in our audience
26:21
that over 50% of people have had disagreements
26:24
or tension in their relationship over money.
26:26
It does not surprise me.
26:27
I know.
26:28
I think it's insane.
26:30
But I think it's sad that it creates tension.
26:33
It should be exciting.
26:35
It's like, cool, what are we saving for?
26:37
What are we going to strive for?
26:39
What's money goal?
26:40
You know, like it should be
26:42
I'd love to see that reversed
26:44
in terms of making money less bad.
26:48
Using as a resource as a tool
26:49
to achieve things.
26:50
To make your life better and more exciting
26:53
and achieving those goals than...
26:55
Yeah.
26:56
Well, it's your experience being
26:57
dating people who earn different...
26:59
Oh, she's rubbing her hands together.
27:01
What are you about?
27:02
Here's me scared about it.
27:03
It makes like, let me add it.
27:05
I have been fortunate to date people
27:09
that have been in both camps.
27:11
So I mean that it's more than me
27:13
and I mean that it happens.
27:15
I think I come from a place though
27:17
and we're talking about this other day
27:18
about like being generous just in general
27:20
and I think with friends and partners
27:22
that's exactly the same.
27:23
So if there's...
27:24
When I was dating someone
27:25
that didn't listen to me,
27:27
we split things 50-50.
27:28
But I knew that if I wanted to go out
27:31
to a fancy restaurant five nights a week,
27:33
then I'm going to have to pay for that
27:35
because that's what I like and therefore...
27:38
And out of their budget.
27:39
That's not what they put.
27:40
But it wasn't like...
27:41
It was also a reflection on me.
27:42
I'm like, you don't have to go to this nice restaurant.
27:44
I was like, well, we're on holiday.
27:45
We don't have to get the Audi rental car.
27:47
Did you hear about that?
27:48
No, but...
27:50
We were on holiday together.
27:52
We were on holiday together.
27:53
And Vic had way more expendable income than I did.
27:56
And we went to go get a car rental
27:59
and there was honestly not even a flicker of a thought
28:03
that we would not just go for the most cheap car.
28:05
And I saw Vic looking at the car.
28:08
She was like, hmm, there's a convertible Audi.
28:11
And it was like four times the price.
28:13
And I was like, you're absolutely taking the purse.
28:15
So for you and I should go on holiday together.
28:16
We'd have a great trip.
28:17
But in hindsight, we had never had those conversations.
28:20
And so in hindsight, you should pay.
28:23
If you wanted to get the Audi,
28:25
and I wouldn't...
28:26
You've got the top shelf choice here.
28:27
Sof's buying with the bottom shelf,
28:29
which I'm on the bottom shelf with you.
28:31
I would never ever...
28:32
No, and I...
28:33
But for me, there was a moment of like...
28:35
Don't be fucking ridiculous.
28:37
This car has four wheels and a steering wheel.
28:40
You know, like...
28:41
I mean, I wouldn't have said no if you'd paid the difference.
28:43
I would have been quite heavy about it.
28:44
But the point is, I think when it comes to anything outside of
28:48
your immediate expenses.
28:50
So mortgage rent, food, electricity,
28:53
all of the stuff that you need to pay for.
28:56
If you're wanting to spend more than
28:59
what your partner can keep up with,
29:01
or whoever's earning less,
29:03
I think there should be an expectation
29:05
that you step up,
29:06
or you go do that without the expectation
29:08
that they need to come with you,
29:09
because it's so unfair and stressful,
29:11
to be the one that's earning less,
29:13
and trying to keep up with something you can't afford.
29:16
And it actually goes against everything that we try and talk about,
29:18
like, spend within your means,
29:19
spend money on what means something to you.
29:21
And if your partner doesn't give a shit about going out for dinner,
29:24
but you do,
29:25
and you want them to come,
29:27
then that's, I think, something that needs to be talked about.
29:30
And I've definitely had friends like that have gone holidays,
29:34
and their version of a holiday that they want
29:36
versus the version of the holiday that probably their partner can afford,
29:39
are very different, so they pay.
29:41
And like, I totally get that.
29:42
And I think with this one relationship was that
29:45
the thing that concerned me the most,
29:47
is this someone earning less or more?
29:48
Sorry, this was someone earning less.
29:50
The thing that concerned me the most was
29:52
the lack of assets and investments at their age.
29:56
And I think for me, that was,
29:58
it didn't matter what they earned.
30:00
That was a reflection of their spending habits versus their income.
30:04
And that was way more.
30:06
Did they have any assets?
30:07
Not that it, no.
30:08
So, and I think,
30:09
I think for me, that was like,
30:10
okay, you're spending what you're earning.
30:12
So how would we, as a couple, ever achieve financial goals,
30:15
or get it here?
30:16
Whereas if that was the case, but they had assets,
30:19
or they weren't spending because they wanted to save further things,
30:23
or, you know, I think that was for me the bigger red flag.
30:26
Just the clarity.
30:27
Define assets, investments, property, car.
30:32
I think it's one thing to say that.
30:35
For me, the biggest flag would be debt.
30:38
So I don't necessarily,
30:40
I think we didn't get that far in the relationship to talk about debt,
30:43
but like the asset thing is probably something you can,
30:46
it's more obvious, it's more seen.
30:49
And the fact that there wasn't any debt was kind of, yeah.
30:52
But I think if we got to the relationship and got a bit more down that track
30:56
to have those conversations, then maybe we might have unearthed.
30:59
The only thing that I would say though,
31:01
is coming from a place where I didn't get a lot of education around money
31:05
or awareness around the better way to do things,
31:08
or even a different way to do things.
31:11
I think in a relationship, there's a real opportunity to share experiences
31:15
and learnings in wisdom because everyone has their strong point.
31:19
And you would hope that in a relationship,
31:21
you're teaching someone something and they're teaching you something
31:24
about something completely different.
31:27
And if someone isn't open to doing things differently,
31:30
that for me is a way bigger red flag than looking at where they're at in their life,
31:34
maybe having no assets, spending all their money week to week, month to month.
31:39
If a conversation was had and they're not open to learning or changing that,
31:43
that for me would be scary.
31:46
But I think there's a lot of people,
31:48
particularly I don't think it's gendered,
31:50
I think a lot of guys also have no context.
31:53
It's the best way to spend their money or to get assets, et cetera.
31:56
And I think that's, yeah, I should have prefaced that.
31:59
I think it also depends on the person
32:02
and how immasculated they might feel by dating someone
32:06
because there was undertones I heard after I should have ended to friends
32:10
that he felt very immasculated with the amount I earned
32:14
and what I shouted him and what I should be money on.
32:16
And for me, that was coming from a really nice place.
32:18
So I think that was kind of, I was like,
32:20
okay, this is not.
32:22
That's such a silent sign.
32:25
See, I've never experienced that.
32:27
I've never experienced the reaction other than just that sort of joy
32:31
and happiness from the partner that I was earning, what I was earning.
32:33
I never felt that resentment and I never felt that threatened sort of behavior
32:37
from any of my partners.
32:38
I think there's a lot of ego wrapped up in.
32:41
And also, I think it's really interesting.
32:44
I went to a talk not that long ago about toxic masculinity
32:48
and how can men show up in this environment
32:51
where they don't know to open the door.
32:53
They don't know to pay.
32:55
We're really rewriting what it looks like at the moment
32:58
and we're in the thick of it right now.
33:00
And I think, yeah, as you see, Danny,
33:02
there's some men that really all they want
33:05
is for their partner to succeed.
33:07
They're genuinely stoked for there's no element of jealousy or resentment.
33:11
And then there's others where maybe their ego's a little bit more fragile
33:15
and they equate money with value or success and things.
33:21
And it all comes down to the way that someone perceives themselves really
33:26
to how they respond to someone else earning more or less than them.
33:30
I've never been in a dynamic where I've been more than my partner
33:33
until very, very recently.
33:35
And that's because he hasn't been working.
33:38
So if you...
33:40
And this is a question to both of you because I know my answer here.
33:43
But if you were in a relationship with somebody that earned significantly less than you
33:48
and didn't have any assets,
33:50
would you get a prenup...
33:52
If you got engaged before you got married,
33:54
were you going with us?
33:55
I would get a prenup before getting married regardless, I think.
33:59
I just really...
34:00
I hope you would.
34:01
Because I don't want your ex-husband
34:04
to own your curfews and...
34:06
I would be at the registry,
34:10
making sure you fucking sign that thing.
34:13
I think it's more for me.
34:15
I think it puts the responsibility
34:18
and I've got myself into action
34:22
because I think it's really easy
34:24
and I notice myself doing it all the time
34:26
where I revert into thinking
34:29
or freaking out about how am I going to afford this
34:32
or how am I going to...
34:34
But if I'm being totally honest,
34:36
this is still something I'm never getting
34:38
I still have intertwined romance and money a lot
34:43
and untangling that for me has been difficult
34:46
because on one side getting married really
34:50
or being defective or joining finances
34:53
should be a...
34:54
should propel your wealth,
34:55
it should be that it's the whole reason
34:57
that marriage exists in the first place for resources.
34:59
So, yeah, honestly,
35:01
I've really flipped flop between the two.
35:04
I definitely would get a prenup.
35:06
I did not get a prenup with my first marriage.
35:09
Well, married, have we...
35:11
Have we seen that before?
35:12
Yeah, I think in the last episode.
35:14
Oh, yeah, okay, okay.
35:15
But then you said,
35:16
another episode, another episode.
35:17
Oh, yes, yes.
35:18
As you guys know, I was married as well.
35:21
We just like to fit lots of things into short spaces.
35:23
Yes, I'm like another episode, another episode.
35:25
But you do get a prenup.
35:27
We didn't have a prenup.
35:28
We were also 24
35:29
and didn't have a lot of air seats
35:31
or no one's hugely shocked
35:33
at that relationship.
35:34
Who gets married in 24?
35:36
Oh, my God, fun.
35:37
You would have been like,
35:39
Brother Ross Danny,
35:40
just feeling like getting married.
35:41
No?
35:42
No, okay.
35:43
And my personality,
35:44
have you seen that you're unaware of?
35:46
I'm just like, I'm relaxed, frivolously.
35:48
I'm like, 24 years old.
35:49
I'm really not one person in this room.
35:51
I'm just like, not as light and frivolous.
35:53
Just like in love and getting married.
35:55
Yeah, I mean,
35:56
that's a whole different conversation.
35:58
Yeah, okay.
35:59
But, financially,
36:00
we were very equal actually in that.
36:03
Because in your early 20s,
36:05
usually people are in the same boat.
36:07
And it's in the mid to late 20s
36:09
that you start to really see the growth
36:11
and trajectory of careers take off.
36:13
So I can't speak to what that person is earning now.
36:15
But at the time,
36:16
it was pretty 50-50.
36:17
So why are you regretting not getting a prenup?
36:19
So when the relationship,
36:21
nothing happened.
36:22
We all walked away very clean.
36:24
We earned a similar amount.
36:26
But towards the end of the relationship,
36:28
the separation period of that relationship was like 18 months.
36:31
It was such a long time.
36:32
By then, he's in a new relationship.
36:33
I was in a new relationship.
36:34
But we were legally still married.
36:36
During that time,
36:38
I built a house in Melbourne.
36:41
And I did not tell him about that.
36:44
And at the time of divorce,
36:46
had he requested assets,
36:49
he would have had half of that.
36:51
Oh God.
36:52
Because legally,
36:53
he was still married.
36:54
But he can't make on it now.
36:55
Even if on paper,
36:56
you're very clearly not together.
36:57
Haak.
36:59
I never realized that was a thing.
37:00
Because it was money,
37:01
the deposit money I saved
37:03
throughout the course of our relationship.
37:04
So I really feel like,
37:06
Danny is one of those people
37:07
that is.
37:08
She's such an onion,
37:09
you know, you're like,
37:10
Oh, the slayer should have lived in the building.
37:12
And have some mountains.
37:13
That's my answer, you're like,
37:14
Yes!
37:15
With a hammer in an evil face.
37:16
And I did you physically build it?
37:17
No, no, no.
37:18
The company I worked for,
37:19
because it was a home builder.
37:21
And there was a sort of an incentive scheme
37:24
scheme that you could get in with a slightly lower deposit than the average person would
37:28
need.
37:29
I'm just waiting for the like, and I've got five children saying, I honestly, if she said
37:32
I've got a pit guava or something, I'd be like, you guys knew I had a house in Australia.
37:36
What is a guava fruit?
37:37
Is it a guava fruit?
37:38
Do you mean a guava?
37:39
A guava?
37:40
I was like, that would be weird.
37:41
It's like a pitmigo.
37:42
Oh my God.
37:43
Oh, pitmigo.
37:44
Anyway, the pointer has something weird, a weird pitmigo.
37:50
No, so anyway, yes, we, I had that property, and obviously now I still own 100% of that,
37:55
but had I gotten that prenup, that was one of the instances where I actually would have
37:59
gone against me.
38:00
It's been long enough time there, stuck to limitations as fast, so we're all good.
38:03
What if you were dating someone or getting married to someone that had significantly more
38:07
than you?
38:08
Would you get a prenup?
38:09
Mm-hmm.
38:10
Yeah, if they wanted to, yeah.
38:11
If they wanted to.
38:12
You can't do it one way or the other.
38:13
I know.
38:15
I'm actually because I was trying to pen you down.
38:17
You're like, oh, sorry I'm so busy.
38:19
I don't have a pen.
38:20
I think that anything you've earned before, or anything you've gained before, remains yours.
38:26
Anything you build together, you split down the middle at the end.
38:29
Yeah.
38:30
But also, I do think you should revise those prenups or have clauses in them for children.
38:33
You do.
38:34
You know, it's completely different if you enter into motherhood during that relationship
38:37
and your income drops and then you're not able to actually contribute to the investments
38:41
or the savings or the house in the same way.
38:42
You're still doing that unpaid work and at the end of that relationship, should it end?
38:48
Then you should be entitled to half, but there should be clauses built into make sure
38:51
that mums don't end up worse off.
38:53
I think my biggest issue in my relationship will be my spending habits.
38:59
I think that's where we'll have misalignment in terms of, like, I could earn more, they
39:03
could earn more, whatever, but I think my spending habits will be.
39:06
What do you think you'd be picked up?
39:07
I was thinking.
39:08
Relationship by Benin, they've just been like, so nonchalant with spending money on nice
39:13
things and I'm the one that's like, oh no, but I want the nice couch or I want the nice,
39:19
you know, like, and I think that would be what would.
39:21
But don't you think if you're paying for it, you can spend whatever the fuck you want?
39:26
Yeah, no, but I'm saying when you combine finances, you know, it'll be like, no, no,
39:30
we don't need the Audi convertible.
39:32
We can have the.
39:33
So you think you'll be pulled up because you want the Audi and they tell you, no,
39:37
and they can hold you out there, yeah, the Honda Jazz and I think for me, in that moment,
39:41
when we were in Greece, it was like, I'm like, pull your head in.
39:44
Of course, you don't need the Audi convertible.
39:46
No, no, it was just like, not an option.
39:48
No, I know, but for me, I was like, don't be ridiculous.
39:51
Of course, we can have the other car.
39:53
So I think for me, if I go into another relationship, that will be the biggest thing I'll
39:57
have to learn.
39:58
But Will it, why should you have to change how you like spending money?
40:01
Well, because it'll help me achieve my goals faster, my financial goals.
40:04
I think that's really interesting because I think you've done a lot of work on your
40:08
spending habits, on your goals.
40:10
You've got all your stuff set up.
40:11
So I just think you should be able to guilt free by nice things that you want, knowing
40:16
that it's not impacting your long-term goals.
40:19
But if it impacts my relationship, had you had that happen before?
40:24
No, but I could just see it.
40:25
I feel like it would be something that would.
40:27
Well, I feel like you have had it happen before, though, because if somebody is saying,
40:30
past relationship, that they felt emasculated by the way that you spent it.
40:33
Yeah, what were you spending?
40:34
Do you remember what you bought?
40:35
No, I just remember, like, we went out for their version of dinner spots in mind.
40:40
Oh, no.
40:41
Very different.
40:42
Oh, yes.
40:43
OK, I know exactly what's happening.
40:44
And then it was like, there was a weekend away that I just wanted to go and try this new
40:46
hotel.
40:47
And so I paid for it.
40:48
And then there was, like, comments around that.
40:51
And I was like, I hear I was just doing a nice weekend away, but yeah.
40:54
Yeah.
40:55
Do you want to take me?
40:56
I'm like, you can.
40:57
You can shout me a nice hotel.
40:59
But I don't know what to do with it, because recently, I've had a lot of that affection
41:06
paid to me and somebody wants to send me flowers and they want to take me on dates and they
41:11
want to buy things for me.
41:12
I've never seen someone more embarrassed getting off his flowers.
41:14
I've never seen someone get more off his flowers.
41:16
Yeah, that's fair.
41:17
That's fair.
41:18
It's such a foreign concept to me that it made me really uncomfortable and I ended up picking
41:23
a massive fight about it.
41:24
Did you?
41:25
And I think that's a conversation.
41:26
Because I don't know how to deal with that.
41:28
I've always been the person that's used to either paying or being resentful that I'm
41:31
paying.
41:32
And now that person wants to pay for me and I go, but you're not earning enough.
41:37
Is it because you know that they don't have assets and therefore you're like you're
41:40
kind of spending irresponsibly?
41:44
Perhaps, but that's also not my responsibility or job or place.
41:47
That's kind of what I mean.
41:48
To tell that person what they want to do with their money and why, because we're in
41:52
the dating stage of the relationship.
41:54
Why?
41:55
I see.
41:56
If we were in, we were living together and we were sharing bills, yeah, I'd have a problem
42:00
with it because I'd say, well, that's fine, but you know, we could have put that money
42:04
into savings with this investment, but we're not there.
42:06
So I've got to learn to enjoy that, but you're going on holidays together.
42:10
So does that mean?
42:11
I don't know what you're talking about.
42:12
That's not happening.
42:13
How do you discuss?
42:14
We have discussed that.
42:15
So that person is going on a holiday and I happen to be going at the same time to
42:19
the same place, to the same hotel, to the same room.
42:21
It's so weird.
42:22
No issues with commitment whatsoever, but they wanted to pay for everything and push
42:28
very hard for that.
42:29
I've never experienced that in my entire life.
42:30
I have neither.
42:31
And I could like, I could not have been more uncomfortable with it.
42:35
And I had friends say, sorry, you've literally gone on for years about somebody doing this
42:41
for you.
42:42
You're getting everything you want and you are cracking the shits.
42:44
Well, this is what I was about to say to you because you say, oh, don't carry my
42:48
bag.
42:49
I'll do my own stuff.
42:50
But then when it comes to money, someone can pay.
42:52
And you're like, go for it.
42:53
I don't understand.
42:54
I'm the other way around.
42:56
Carry the bags, take the bins out, cook the dinner, but we're splitting everything financially
43:00
50-50.
43:01
Would you not feel it all weird if someone's taking you on holiday and paying for everything?
43:05
Honest answer, if you wouldn't.
43:07
I feel like I would be thankful to pins.
43:11
Like if it's a holiday I can't afford, then yeah, go for it.
43:15
I would overcompensate and be like, well, I'm getting, I want to take you out for dinner
43:19
most nights.
43:20
You know, like I would try and pay in another way.
43:22
P-D-Podcast.
43:23
P-D-Podcast.
43:24
I can't win this.
43:25
But anyone that didn't say, I just gave it like a wick.
43:28
We've been there.
43:29
And brainstorm.
43:30
Is there any other way that I can make up this beautiful accommodation?
43:31
Would play cards?
43:32
We play monopoly.
43:33
I don't like the idea of feeling like I need to be there.
43:34
I don't want to be there.
43:35
I don't want to be there.
43:36
I don't want to be there.
43:37
Would play cards?
43:38
We play monopoly.
43:39
We play monopoly.
43:40
I don't like the idea of feeling like I need to.
43:44
Do you owe someone?
43:45
Oh, someone.
43:46
Yeah.
43:47
Something.
43:48
Yeah, but that's a whole separate relationship, don't I make it?
43:51
I know.
43:52
But I guess that's my point is that you and I don't know where someone, you were doing
43:55
that for someone and they didn't feel like they owed you anything, which is really fascinating.
43:59
Quite an interesting one.
44:01
You were in a situation where you were paying for everything.
44:03
They felt really uncomfortable with it.
44:06
It's just so many different nuances that we're also comparing different lengths of relationships
44:11
here.
44:12
I'm talking about very, very long term and I think you become desensitized to somebody
44:17
just taking the reins, whereas maybe that chance never happened for you where that person
44:23
could get comfortable.
44:25
But I know that in this situation now, we are just, the bottom line is going to be split
44:30
50, 50 down the middle.
44:31
There's one or two things that each other have paid for though.
44:34
I wanted to do something specific in Portugal that was included about it may have been
44:41
a day trip somewhere fun.
44:43
It may have included renting an expensive boat, which is very out of character for me and
44:47
anyone who knows me.
44:48
It's so awful for this.
44:49
Yeah.
44:50
You know, like it's great.
44:51
You've got it.
44:52
You've earned it.
44:53
You deserve it.
44:54
Spin your money on what you want.
44:55
Yeah.
44:56
But what have we learned about me?
44:57
About the boat.
44:58
But then I'll go for 50 on a meal deal.
45:00
Oh, ridiculous.
45:01
Yeah.
45:02
It's great.
45:03
Oh, long.
45:04
I actually remember with this relationship, there was previously talking about, I went to
45:09
fancy hotel.
45:10
I was like, oh my god, I'm so, I love this.
45:12
Really?
45:13
I'm an organiser.
45:14
I was like, amazing.
45:15
And it was beautiful.
45:16
It was amazing.
45:17
And I was like, let me know if you want me to contribute.
45:18
And he was like, yeah, okay.
45:19
Cool.
45:20
And I was just like, but now we're back to the whole, but see, that's not fair.
45:24
I know.
45:25
I know.
45:26
I know it's not fair.
45:27
And I know that's mean.
45:28
I just was like, I was being nice offering, but like, don't accept my offer.
45:32
No.
45:33
Victoria.
45:34
Absolutely not.
45:35
Definitely not.
45:36
Sorry.
45:37
This is a no.
45:38
If a guy said that, that would be, I know.
45:40
I know.
45:41
I was revered.
45:42
But I actually remember the set name.
45:44
And I was just kind of like, oh, I just took the shine.
45:47
I was like, but that's, but I think that was coming from me being awkward.
45:50
Like, oh, let me know how much to transfer.
45:53
I'll pay half, you know, but I like, and they gave you a succinct answer.
45:55
Yeah.
45:56
Absolutely not.
45:57
I was just like, no, no, you paid for the last one, but it wasn't.
46:00
And so for me, I was like, well, that's not really fair.
46:02
But I don't know.
46:03
But that's also on you because you chose the expense of hotel.
46:06
And that comes back to the idea, but I also chose to offer to pay for the other trip as
46:11
well.
46:12
And then they just accepted my offer.
46:14
I shouldn't have offered to pay.
46:16
But then I didn't want to feel like I was just, but you need to have those conversations.
46:20
Like are you looking something within your budget or is this something for both of us?
46:24
Or, like, I think you have to be so clear.
46:26
So then we'll get back to basics and nice to have is right because what we're saying
46:30
about long-term relationships is bills, rent, all of that stuff, perhaps 50-50 or based
46:36
on income, whereas the nice to have in my opinion should be, you shout this, you shout
46:41
that.
46:42
And this holiday is a perfect example of that because all the accommodation and the flights
46:45
and such is 50-50 down the middle.
46:47
But if I want to do a nice thing one day, I'm paying for that.
46:50
And if they want to do a nice thing one day, they're paying for it.
46:52
I think that's-
46:53
And that kind of keeps the romance there, but the fairness level-
46:55
Is there time?
46:56
And that's when, you know, in long-term relationships, getting a savings account and contributing
47:01
a recurring percentage per month, 20%, you know, just to build up your savings over time.
47:07
And if you've got investments making sure that you guys are either having separate investment
47:11
accounts that you're contributing to, or you have a discussion, you say we're both going
47:15
to put into this investment.
47:16
But if you do that, you need to have that in your prenup because at the end of that
47:20
relationship, who's getting the investment?
47:22
I think that's like the nice to have in the essentials.
47:25
And I think there's a difference there for me personally.
47:29
The essentials should be 50-50, the nice to have, I think it's like-
47:34
Yeah, that's where I land.
47:35
Yeah.
47:36
That's where I land on it.
47:37
No, sorry.
47:38
I'm just thinking back to a situation that I had not that long ago.
47:42
We'd given ourselves a pay rise and I wanted to celebrate.
47:45
So we just get a drink.
47:46
It was really chilled.
47:47
It wasn't a big deal.
47:48
It wasn't like, wow, Sophie, you're so generous.
47:50
At all, that's not the point of the story.
47:52
But when we were talking about money, I was feeling a bit hesitant towards the idea
47:57
of splitting things based on dollars and cents.
47:59
I didn't know how to articulate the idea that I wanted to pay 50-50, but I didn't
48:06
want it to be semantics over like 50 cents or two.
48:10
And I didn't know how to navigate that and I was just trying to have a conversation.
48:13
And he said something along the lines of, if we got married we'd be getting a prenup.
48:17
And I remember feeling so gutted about it and so out of control I felt unloved.
48:25
I know all these things are really ridiculous because of how you feel though.
48:28
But I can't help but that's what my immediate reaction was.
48:31
And I think that there is this real undertone of money equals love.
48:36
And so in that moment, because it wasn't me saying I would want to get a prenup,
48:42
which would have made me feel really powerful.
48:44
And like I was in control of the situation, I felt alone.
48:48
Like I wasn't really cared for.
48:50
Like they wouldn't have my bit.
48:51
It was just all not true.
48:53
But how did you communicate that?
48:55
I'm pretty sure we were to fight about it.
48:57
Well, I got really upset.
48:59
Honestly, also in the moment didn't know how do I take care of why I felt kind of attacked.
49:04
It was a really strange situation and I think that what's interesting for me now
49:09
is if I'm looking at the idea that I do earn more.
49:13
I would feel weird about the idea of scaling bills or scaling rent or not doing a 50.
49:19
I don't know.
49:20
I feel like I'm really contradicting myself here.
49:22
But I just, I wanted to share that because I think as much as you can sometimes want to be like,
49:27
I'm a feminist and I've got myself.
49:30
There is a lot of ingrained societal shit around money being cared for being loved.
49:36
Yeah, it goes back a lot further than this conversation.
49:39
A lot of that is probably from parents and the examples that you get shown when you're young
49:45
and what we see in movies about men paying for everything
49:48
and that's in every romcom.
49:50
The man will treat you to something if he thinks that you're worthy of it or you deserve it
49:55
and he brings home the bacon and all of that.
49:57
But understanding money and emotional triggers in relationships is really important
50:03
to have that conversation super early on because you might have a trigger for something
50:08
that you're not even aware of yet and that might have triggered it.
50:11
But had you guys had a conversation about money and romance before that?
50:15
Do you think that would have changed anything?
50:17
I guess where my brain has just gone is to same six couples.
50:20
How does this play out for if there's two women in a relationship?
50:24
Is money at all romantic or for two men?
50:28
We're talking really heavily about heterosexual dynamics,
50:32
which is what has been presented in media and films and romance for generations.
50:38
It's kind of interesting to think about.
50:40
And I think we could all probably learn a lot from heterosexual relationships
50:44
because there wouldn't be that undertone of what is expected from two men in a relationship.
50:49
I don't know how that would play out and also two women like what?
50:53
If there's anyone listening who's in a same sex relationship
50:56
and you feel comfortable sending a voice note or getting in touch with us
50:59
with how it plays out for you, I'd be really curious to hear.
51:03
We'll put a link in the podcast show notes.
51:06
I think it would be really valuable to get voice notes or mysteries or stories.
51:10
So if you feel comfortable sharing and weighing in on this, that would be amazing.
51:14
I've really enjoyed having another voice in another experience in the room because I feel like...
51:18
I felt this was very balanced, it was quite nice to understand how you have had chats with people before
51:24
and how it's... you mean vendor that?
51:26
Yeah, sorry, Vic, I'm pointing, but I'm like...
51:30
Sorry, sorry.
51:31
Vic, how you have had those conversations with X's and I guess the repercussions almost of it
51:38
versus the consequences of my conversations or lack of conversations
51:42
and it seems based on my experience that when I don't talk about it early on,
51:47
it...
51:48
No surprise creates behavioral patterns that are so hard to undo later on your relationship,
51:55
particularly if you bring children into it, I can't even imagine how challenging that would be
51:59
if you've created a dynamic and the routine of that dynamic and then you bring a baby into that.
52:04
You have to try and start the way you need to continue
52:07
because you're right, you do, you set a precedent for what is acceptable
52:11
and if it's not spoken about, no one even knows that it's upsetting you
52:15
or you feel taken advantage of or...
52:17
I definitely reckon my most recent relationship when we spoke about money early on
52:20
was definitely one of the best things to do for me personally.
52:23
I just think it was like...
52:24
Yeah, I was just kind of like, oh gosh, why didn't I do this in the previous ones?
52:28
I just like removed everything, it almost brought us closer.
52:31
You know, like I just feel like it was actually a really good thing to do.
52:35
I think it's the most challenging for people who have been in relationships
52:38
since their early 20s.
52:40
How do you rewind there?
52:41
How do you recreate that dynamic?
52:43
You know, you're completely different people but you've evolved together
52:46
and your salaries will be different, your spending habits will be different,
52:50
your life circumstances massively.
52:52
What if you buy a house?
52:53
How do you even sit down and have the chat about bills if you've never had that structure?
52:56
But maybe if you dated from your early 20s when you didn't have assets
53:00
or much earning capacity,
53:02
it was starting from a real equal playing field
53:05
and so probably it's naturally evolved in a way that suits both people
53:09
or do you think that's really idealistic?
53:10
Well, I have a friend who's come out of a 20-year relationship
53:15
and they had children and there was a split of the house at the end
53:22
and because she had not been working for the last sort of three or four years of that relationship,
53:26
she got barely anything in that divorce and the division of asset
53:33
because she was at home with the children and quote-unquote,
53:37
not working, which we all know is very, very much work
53:42
and then when she did return to work,
53:44
it was sort of part time so that she could continue to care for the kids in a greater capacity
53:48
and then at the end of that because there had been no protection
53:51
and they've been together for such a long time,
53:53
she's ended up with, yeah, I think less than 20% of the total accuracy from that home.
53:58
But how could you, how could you, isn't that partner feel okay about that?
54:02
That's what I don't understand.
54:04
There's so much in there, like in terms of maybe anger, emotion, I don't know, they'd be...
54:12
But it's just straight up on fear, I don't think that's like a surely that's pretty across the board
54:18
in terms of what most people would think.
54:20
I think the way that we would think is probably not what everyone else would think.
54:25
And I also think fear, what is fear is objective.
54:29
It's so subjective, yeah.
54:31
One thing I have written, which I did actually after the moment that I had that misalignment
54:40
in my relationship when he brought up the prenup and I felt really offended.
54:44
I wrote a blog on this, which I'm going to link in the podcast show notes.
54:48
One of the things that I wrote was a whole lot of questions,
54:51
how to get on the same financial page as someone.
54:54
And some of these you might look at and they're not helpful,
54:57
some of them might be really helpful.
54:59
But even just stuff like asking the question,
55:01
what's your earliest memory of money or what was money spoken about between your parents?
55:05
What was that dynamic?
55:06
Like you learned so much about that person and how they relate to finances
55:10
and how that feeds into your dynamics.
55:13
For us we've been working our way through these questions over time,
55:17
every now and again, one or two.
55:19
And you can speak what hours about them and it's really fascinating.
55:22
That's amazing.
55:23
So I think if anyone else wants access to those, we'll put them in the link to the show notes.
55:27
But thank you for coming on again, Danny.
55:29
And I think as we mentioned earlier, if anyone has any experiences or things to share,
55:35
I would love to hear from as many people as feel comfortable sharing,
55:39
whether that's a DM on Instagram or any voice note.
55:42
But again, just check the show notes for all the details as to how to do that.
55:46
Thanks Danny, thanks guys.
55:48
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
55:50
These conversations are designed to teach you everything you need to know
55:53
to be better with your money,
55:54
from saving, to investing, to talking with your friends about your salaries or that stuff.
55:58
And if you like what you've heard, we would love if you could please hit subscribe
56:01
wherever you're listening and leave a comment, let us know what you thought about the episode.
56:05
And it only takes one second and it would really make our week a month, our year.
56:10
Yeah, yeah.
56:11
So please do it.
56:12
Okay, love you.
56:13
Bye.