Latest / Foul Territory / Joe Maddon on the CORRECT way to utilize analytics in the playoffs

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Joe Maddon on the CORRECT way to utilize analytics in the playoffs · Foul Territory

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Nobody better. It is just great to look in the
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Brady Bunch box and see that guy right there with
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: what appears to be like a nice Adidas jacket with
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: the headphones on.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: It says three stripes. Welcome former manager Joe Maddon to
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: the show. You can check out his podcast, The Book
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of Joe, with he and Tom Froducci. Hey, man, it
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: is wonderful to see you. I listen to you all
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the time, but Just to get a chance to sit
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: here and look at you this way and know we're
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: going to enjoy the next 15 or 20 minutes.
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  Speaker 2: It's a treat.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Thanks for being on the show. And I'm looking forward
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to this.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Great to see you again also. And I just want
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: you to know, I mean, I've just been listening.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: To you guys.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: You're very thought provoking as all these different topics you've
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: been bringing up. And I've just been sitting here writing
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: little notes. So I like that. That's what a talk
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: show should be like. That's what a podcast should be like.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: It should create thought. And you guys are doing a
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: great job of that.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much. We appreciate that. So let's see,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: what was the first note you wrote down? Because I
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: like the idea that a talk show can go in
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: a number of directions, Joe.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Well, you're talking about the Dodgers and we always break
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: it down statistically, like Homer's, like you just brought up,
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: AJ brought up the contact, which I don't disagree with
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: any of that. But if the Dodgers are not nearly
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: as good as they had been, or at least appeared
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  Speaker 3: to be, but they're still winning, why?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Why do they do that?
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  Speaker 3: And so I mean, I just wrote down, it speaks
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: to their veteran experience. Obviously, it speaks to their.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Ability to compete. They never panic. And we've all been there.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: And when you're really a part of a good group,
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: even if it's not going well, you still believe you're
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: going to win it somehow. And I can't tell you
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: that the second division clubs have any of those kind
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: of thoughts on the bench during the course of a game,
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: batting practice before the game. So you feel like crap.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: But you still got to go out there and perform
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: and somehow make this thing work. Freddie Freeman coming back like, yeah, single, single, single.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: Then yesterday, okay, I'm starting to feel pretty good. Here
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: comes a homer. You know, so I don't know that
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  Speaker 3: we always want to analyze winning and losing via statistical information.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: And to me, it's about the internal information. It's about
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: the players themselves and what the culture is within the
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: clubhouse and how these guys feel in a tough moment
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: and how quickly you can shake something bad off that
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: has just happened. That's what separates the Dodgers from And
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: that group, I watch in rookie bets, the swing does
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: not look the same. I mean, a lot, it just
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: does not, as an example. But he's still out there
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: making plays at shortstop, and he's still going to get
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: a big hit here or there at some point, and
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: he's going to be part of this ability to win.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: So they're winning not because they're so wonderful right now.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Shohei looked terrible.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, and I still think he's going to figure
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: it out, but there's obviously something wrong there.
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  Speaker 2: I saw that last at bat yesterday.
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  Speaker 3: So you have to talk about the intangible components of
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: an athlete also.
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  Speaker 2: I don't think we do that enough.
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  Speaker 4: Joe, how can you get that though? You know, teams,
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: you know, this teams don't value that veteran, the good
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: teams that win have those guys, right? Whether it's the Dodgers,
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  Speaker 4: I mean, but the younger teams, even listen, I'll throw
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: the brewers in there with a guy like Christian Yellings, right?
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: Jake Bowers has been through some ups and downs, right?
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  Speaker 4: They have a few guys, they have some, some arms like,
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  Speaker 4: like Brandon Woodruff that obviously isn't pitching, but he's been
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: through it before. So he knows, right? But how do
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  Speaker 4: you learn that if you don't, allow teams to have
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  Speaker 4: veteran guys. It seems like it's, young guys can't learn
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  Speaker 4: that without going through it. And a lot of times
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  Speaker 4: by the time the young guys get there, they're shuffled
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  Speaker 4: out anyway. So how do you, can you teach that? Maybe,
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  Speaker 4: maybe that's actually my question.
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  Speaker 2: Can you teach that?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think it can be taught via having the
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  Speaker 3: right people in the room, but what you're talking about
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  Speaker 3: there also, what is important to an organization?
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  Speaker 2: We're so locked into math right now.
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  Speaker 3: We avoid the humanity component of this thing, excuse me,
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  Speaker 3: which really separates winning from losing.
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  Speaker 2: So how do you incorporate that?
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  Speaker 3: IE the 2008 raise 2007, we had the, you know,
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: some nice young players, Andrew brought in a Percy, uh,
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Cliff Floyd and Eric Kinski.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: What a difference that made in our development and our
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: ability to win.
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  Speaker 2: These are the kinds of guys that they're, they're there
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  Speaker 2: for one reason. They're a level five.
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  Speaker 3: I've gotten my five levels of any professional athlete level one,
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  Speaker 3: Happy to be here.
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  Speaker 2: Level two, survival. I like this. I want to stay here.
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  Speaker 2: Level three, I belong here. I can do this.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: You need guys to be there because until you get
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: to that point, you really can't help a team win.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: Level four, I want to make as much money as
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: I can. And level five, all I want to do
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  Speaker 3: is win. You've done all this other stuff. And you
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: need level five guys. You have to identify them and
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  Speaker 3: put them among this group of youngsters that you feel
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  Speaker 3: good about.
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  Speaker 2: And you have to teach them how to win.
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  Speaker 3: That's such a nebulous thought and every time you say
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  Speaker 3: that people what do you mean by that well it's
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  Speaker 3: one of those things you have to live that's experience
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: that's the moment that's feel and you have to be
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: go through different moments to gain the right to say
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  Speaker 3: you feel something or that you you know this experience
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  Speaker 3: that the moment that i have it's replaying and i
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  Speaker 3: want to incorporate something right here so you have to
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: as an organization believe it to be true and accurate
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: that it does matter and when you do do that
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  Speaker 3: you bring in david ross like we did with the
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: cubs Or Miguel Montero, that also is big.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Johnny Lackey.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: All these guys that analytically are not going to be
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: mavens right now, but made all the difference in the
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: world of the Rays going to the World Series and
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: the Cubs going to the World Series.
• 5:41
  Speaker 5: The 2026 MLB playoffs are here.
• 5:44
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• 5:45
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• 5:47
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• 5:48
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• 5:50
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• 5:53
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• 5:56
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• 5:58
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• 6:00
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• 6:02
  Speaker 2: There's some big teams going.
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: Kratzy, tell us about it.
• 6:05
  Speaker 6: I'm definitely going to a Brewers game. There's no bad
• 6:08
  Speaker 6: seats in Milwaukee because the stadium is right on top
• 6:12
  Speaker 6: of the field. It feels like you're in the grass.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: And you know what?
• 6:15
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• 6:18
  Speaker 6: concert tickets.
• 6:20
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• 6:20
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• 6:22
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• 6:39
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• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Joe, it's interesting, and we talked about this, and maybe
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: you were listening, but in the seat that you sat
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: in for so long and did so well, this concept
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: of when to say when on a pitcher. Snell was
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: a fascinating example I thought was fascinating. Michael King has
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: been a fascinating study over his career with the Yankees
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: and now with the Padres and the way they do that.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: The Braves' bullpen was outstanding, especially late, and Kerr was
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: amazing to start. It felt like, if you listen to
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Walt Weiss after the game, Joe, yesterday, he said that
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: wasn't the plan. Like you tell me, is there some
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: evolution in the way that the managers are allowed to,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: are taking control again, have always been in control? I
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: don't know the answer. But when I hear a manager
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: say that wasn't the plan, it means to me that
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: there was one of these that said, here's the plan.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: And he looked at it. He trusted his coaches. Guys
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: aren't making contact. So this is the way we're going
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  Speaker 1: to go about this. Has that changed? Is it evolving
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: or is it the same as it's been forever? The
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: last five, 10 years, what?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I still think it's in the last, you're right.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: It's about 10 years.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: I would bet like 2015, 14. That's when the front
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: office became more heavy handed in regards to handing out lineups.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: That's beyond suggesting what they want you to do. This
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: is what we'd like you to do. pretty much taking
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: a manager and making him a middle manager. And just
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  Speaker 3: telling you the truth, that's exactly what's going on.
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  Speaker 2: Prior to that, I think, and I know this, I mean,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: even when I got to the race, very analytically heavy,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: but Andrew permitted me to be me during the course
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: of a game. I mean, listen, I started doing it
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: in 1981. I've had so many wonderful mentors. I've been
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: in so many different situations.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: A lot of times I would equate what's happening right
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: now to what's happened in the past and react accordingly.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: The guys today don't have that cachet of knowledge.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: They don't have that level of experience that they can
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: weigh things versus what they had done in the past.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And that's part of the hiring process also. They don't
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: want that.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: They, being front offices, don't want the guy that may
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: have a solid opinion or a thought based on experience
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: that is frowned upon. The game today would rather lose
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: analytically than win based on feel because they think based
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: on feel or experience is, ethereal. It's not going to
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: happen on any kind of consistent basis where the larger
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: sample size will. How's that working out? Look at the
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: records of teams this year. Look at a team playing
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: 500 baseball, making the playoffs, and that's obviously permitted by
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: the expanded playoff situation. But all that stuff to me
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: is like, come on, why are we considering this the
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: only way to do things or the right way to
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: do things? Analytics provides a safety net for decision-making. Think
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: about it. If you do something analytically according to the
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: plan and it doesn't work out, that's okay because eventually
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: it will work out.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: But you know what? It needs to work out on,
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  Speaker 2: what did it say, October 5th, whatever. It needs to
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  Speaker 2: work today.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: And when the game begins, when the plan blows up,
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: then analytics becomes your manager's abilities to think in the
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: moment or your coaching staff's ability to think in the moment,
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: not just being told what to think in the moment.
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: Voice in the back of your head when you're in
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: the dugout is awful.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: It's awful.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: And I still believe Cashy pulled Snell back in the
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: day with the Dodgers because of the voice in the
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: back of his head. And that's the kind of stuff
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  Speaker 3: that I'm telling you, man, it exists.
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: Oh, I don't doubt it.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Let me just, so you said somewhere in there, Andrew
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: gave me permission to be myself.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Did, is that what you, did you say that? Is
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: that what you said? Something like that. Yeah. Andrew. Yeah.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: They permitted.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: My question is when, like, when did that happen, Joe,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: in your, in your tenure there? I'm just curious, like
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: what earned you that? Or was that from Jump Street?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: That's Jump Street. I mean, when I came in there,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: we were, we were philosophically aligned. I was, I'm analytically inclined.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: I want all this stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want the
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: best analysts.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: If I ever had a chance to do this again,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: I would want to be the one that's in the
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: hiring process of the analytical department.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: No doubt.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: I would want to travel. Send me to Boston. Send
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: me to MIT, Harvard. I'll go out to dinner that night.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: I'd love all that stuff. However, once they've been to building,
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: give me your stuff, give it to me by 2.30,
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: 3 o'clock at the worst, and then go back and
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: start prepping for the next day's game.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: I don't want you in the clubhouse. If I need
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: something more, I will speak to you. I'll call you
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: on the phone.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: I'll Zoom you, but I don't want you directly talking
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: to the players in regard to this unless I ask
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: you to do so. There's got to be a separation
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: between teachers and presenters. The analytical department are presenters. They're
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: not teachers. And don't be deceived by that. Don't be confused. However,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: there is a confusion with that where the presenters are giving,
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: coaches have to answer to analytical departments or analytical departments
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: should have to answer to coaches. Coaches should be the
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: department heads. And that's where I think this has gotten skewed.
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: Craig Stammen.
• 11:48
  Speaker 6: Does Craig Stammen's feel, did it grow from that loss?
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: Because I'm a big believer in when you have a failure,
• 11:56
  Speaker 6: you have a choice. You can either sulk in your
• 11:59
  Speaker 6: failure or you can grow from it. Did he get
• 12:02
  Speaker 6: a feel from that situation of, What Mason Miller can
• 12:07
  Speaker 6: do when he's put in a situation that you never
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: put him in before and throw those extra innings? And
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: does he go back to it again later on based
• 12:16
  Speaker 6: on what you saw?
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: I could start naming my failures as a minor league
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: manager and coach that could fill up volumes, right? And
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: I do believe and I do think about that stuff. See,
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: the thing when I'm watching that last night, one inning
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: relief pitchers, primarily one inning guys, when they go between
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: 25 and 30 pitches, like an alarm bell goes off
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: in my head. That's where I like the stats being
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: available to me. You know, you get the velocities. Of course,
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: he still is maintaining his number. But the number of
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: pitches thrown at that point, he's not used to that.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: He's not used to the ups and downs. He's not
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: used to sitting down after an emotional moment, sitting there
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: for how many ever minutes and having to come back
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: and pick it right back up. That's not easy to do.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: So to me, you can't really necessarily do this during
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: the season either. I still believe in the number of
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: pitches thrown also. in regards to these one-inning guys. And
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: I'm a big believer in that because I've seen it.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Between 25 and 30, boom, things blow up unless the
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: guy's an anomaly. And the other point, nobody evaluates the
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: emotional response of all this, of having to do this often.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: There are certain guys, the better the closer was or
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: the better the high leverage reliever is, the better ability
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: he has to handle failure or emotion. Whereas the guys
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: that don't, are unable to pitch in those moments successfully, consistently,
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: are unable to handle failure and emotional equally as well.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: This is part of the process of understanding who you
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: could do this with and who you cannot. Mariano Rivera,
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: my God, the best ever, the best ever.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: He had one pitch. He had one pitch and he
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: threw it all the time and it was so good.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: You knew it was coming. There's nothing you can do
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: about it. Great athlete, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: So these are the kind of components that nobody talks
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: about that to me are really important in making these decisions.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Joe, I have two questions for you. Yes, sir.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: One greater playoff moment. Jackson Cheerio getting a hit off
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: Mason Miller, Josh Paul rolling the ball back to the pitcher.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Greater.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: Well, of course, Cheerio, because my least favorite is Josh
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: Paul rolling the ball back to the pitcher.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: That's least, least favorite. Okay. That's fair. Yesterday, Matt. Yeah.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: You brought up 2008. So I had to zing you back.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Cause thank you for this in 2008. So I appreciate that.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: But seriously, You just mentioned it.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: I want to know as a manager, do you say
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: anything to Mason Miller? Do you say anything to the team?
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: Because as you know, there's nothing more deflating as a
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: team than when you have your closer, your guy in
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: the mound and you lose that game. That is like
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: a death blow to a lot of teams. Do you
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: say something to the team? Do you say something to
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: Mason Miller? How do you go about, you know, repairing
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: psyche of the team?
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't be, I'm not into team meetings unless
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: they're absolutely necessary. Unless, um, My favorite time to do
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: a team meeting is after we won on the road
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: and we sucked.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: That's the time when I want to have a team meeting.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: I never want to do it at home winning and
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: after a loss because the guys are beat up anyway.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: So that's I would not do the meeting now. Mason Miller.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, I would have a conversation with him just trying
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: to like again because I need him. They need him
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: for the next three games to win to advance without him.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: They cannot. They cannot. He's the anchor. He's the guy.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: So I would have a conversation with him under Roldis Chapman.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: I had Rafael Soriano, Troy Percival, who was a very
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: good friend, but I still had to have conversations with.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: You know, Percy and I went way back to the
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: minor leagues, but I'm his manager in Tampa Bay. He's
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: at the end of his career, and sometimes you can
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: be a little bit surly, and you have to be
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: straight up. So, yes, I prefer having one-on-one conversations. The team,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: they're going to react based on how I react. The
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: most important thing I can do for the team is
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: show up the next day as the same cat as
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I did the day before.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And you can't tell if we won or lost.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: The day before by their conversations with me, just normal conversation.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: That to me is what I have to do.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: It strikes me, Joe, that if we can switch to
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: the Yankees and Austin Wells' face running the other night
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: after he hits the double, that on one hand, it
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: would warrant a one-on-one conversation. On another hand, That's a
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: conversation he is very well aware is coming. He's hearing
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: it from forget just the manager, but everybody, you know,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: and their mother, they're all sharing the same thought. Rather
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: than just focus on that situation, unless there's a teachable
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: moment in that unique situation. Base running, is that something
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: that is still taught? It's like bunting now with your
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: old team, the Rays. They seem to focus on it
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: and do it well. Base running has gotten the ire
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of everybody. You saw our mutual friend Tim Kirkshin, you know,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: throw his arms up and his glasses down.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: He couldn't believe what.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Was going on in front of him. And yet it
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: continues and then it is magnified again. in the biggest moment.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: So how does something like that happen? And then how
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: do you prevent it from hopefully happening again?
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, anything that you deem important for me
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: in spring training, that'd be the first thing we did
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: in practice. So we would base run every day and
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: practice first thing in the morning. Traditionally, it was always
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: kept to the last part of the day. It was
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: part of a conditioning moment. But by that time, your
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: body's tired, your brain is tired.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Nobody's paying attention.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: So anything that you really want your team to do
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: well that you consider important, do at the beginning of practice,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: not at the end of practice. So the answer is
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: base running to me was the first thing we did
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: every day, whether I was with the Angels, with the Rays,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: and with the Cubbies, and then back with the Angels.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: There was a time that I used to have a
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: moving warm-up that had created a moving warm-up. So instead
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: of doing traditional stretching off to the side, you would
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: run and stretch and move on the bases. creating good turns,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: snapping your head, getting the next direction. You set up
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: at first to third, second to home. You set all
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: these different daily at the beginning of practice, not at
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: the end when everybody's tired. That's how you get the
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: point across. That's how you get guys to understand or
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: buy in. You look at the Rays, and that's a
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: culture that we created there years ago. When I was
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: there with Soch, that was a great culture that we
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: created there with the Angels and did the same thing,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: tried to do the same thing with the Cubs. I'm
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: here to tell you, though, the last time I went
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: with the Angels, I was told, They weren't even teaching
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: bunting and base running in the minor leagues. It was
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: considered superfluous. Just hit homers. You don't care if you
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: strike out. You know, walks were wonderful. Pitchers spin the
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: ball to top of the zone. And even defense was,
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: you know, to me, you're putting so many people in
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: the wrong position defense. I've seen so many outfielders that
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: are playing on the infield that should not be there,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: but they're trying to create better offensive numbers by putting
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: dudes on the infield that should not be there.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: They don't belong in the dirt whatsoever. They belong on
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: the grass.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: So all these things, again, it comes down to what
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: you consider important. You're running the organization, Carl. What do
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: you consider important? What does your analytical people tell you
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: is important in regards to winning games? Obviously, there's a
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: lot of organizations out there that have it completely wrong
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: right now.
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: Joe, last one for me. Chris Sale chose to not
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: pitch by the front office manager. Whoever it was, they
• 19:22
  Speaker 6: chose to rest him and sit him. Do you feel
• 19:25
  Speaker 6: like as a manager, that decision not only galvanizes your
• 19:29
  Speaker 6: team saying, he's your best pitcher, we have to do
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: it without him? Or do you feel like it's more
• 19:36
  Speaker 6: of a roll of the dice? I don't know if
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: we can do it, but let's see if it works
• 19:40
  Speaker 6: out type of moment.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: I think if the organization, the clubhouse, has a lot
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: of trust involvement, there's a lot of trust going from
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: the staff to the players and players to the staff
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: in a hot moment in a game. I mean, I don't,
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: I can tell you, cannot tell you how many times
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I told myself, trust your guys.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Cause I mean, you're in there.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, as a manager, the decision to not do
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: something is also decision that nobody ever knows about. So
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: as you're constantly making decisions, whether it's to be proactive
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: or do nothing, So there's always a constant flow of decision-making,
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: even though you don't recognize it from the stands or wherever.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: So my thought to myself was trust your guys in
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: the moment. And you can trust your guys if the
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: culture has been built. My point is I believe the
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Braves trusted the decision-making. And I think Walt's done a
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: wonderful job. You know, Walt comes back from that Oakland
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: chain back in the day. I saw Walt in frigging
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: instructional leagues. You know, and I go back.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: With this guy. I know who taught him. I know
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: how he was taught.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: And it's on display right now in regards to leaving
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: a relief pitcher in longer. Even with Iglesias out there
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: ready to rock and roll, I loved what he did.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: And I could go back to 1986 in El Paso, Texas,
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: when I pulled phil venterino in a three nothing game
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: because i thought i needed to bring my my closer
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: in and we lose okay that's what i'm talking about
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: feel and experience and you have these different thoughts in
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: your head or not so yes i uh i think
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: the culture permits the braves to do something like that
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: with total buying from the.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Group yeah 1986 analytics was in an incubator i mean
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: that's uh there was a lot of guts going on
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: there and big decisions. Uh, it's been a pleasure.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: What's that? Joe, are you there for Buckner too? I mean, 1986.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, I was in, I was in the minor leagues.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: I was, um, I was the field. No, I was
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: managing in Midland, Texas when I did that. But then
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: I became the field coordinator in 1987 for the entire organization.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: I started in 81 as a scout and a rookie
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: ball manager. Then I managed, uh, One year in A ball,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: two years in double A ball. Then I became coordinator,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: hitting instructor, catching coach. I mean, I've done all the
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: different coordinator jobs on the minor league level too.
• 21:57
  Speaker 6: No, Joe, you should have just been in the front
• 21:59
  Speaker 6: office and you would have been a manager in the
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: big leagues right away. You could have been a manager
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: right away.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: Dude, that never happened back then, as you know. I mean,
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: for me, that was the big thing. I had to
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: get to the big leagues as a coach in order
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: to be considered managerial material. And my thought was, okay,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: One day as a player would have been good enough.
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: But how many years as a coach that I need
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: to be to get that same kind of cachet? So
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: my thought was 10 years as a coach would have
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: equaled one day as a player in the big leagues.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: So I spent 10 years, almost 10 years as a
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: major league coach before I got opportunity. And I was
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: grateful for it. Listen, everybody wants to rush things all
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: the time. I never wanted anything before it was my
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: time to do something.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Because then you get out on a limb. You really
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: don't know what you're doing.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of people out there that don't know
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: what they're doing, not just in baseball, in many aspects
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: of life, because they get to a point where they're
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: not really prepared to do it, and they want to
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: rush through it.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: And if they don't get it, they're going to cry
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: like a little baby. There's preparation.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: The earned component of it is not nearly as important
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: today as it had been.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Joe, by the way, you want to know why the
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: Angels didn't bunt when you went back? Because you didn't
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: give Adam Kennedy the bunt when he hit three home runs.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: So they think everyone can hit three home runs in
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: a playoff game.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: How about my book? Yes, go ahead.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: David Eckstein could lay a bunt down, Joe. Eckstein could bunt.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Well, that's, I mean, David Eckstein was an MVP in
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: the World Series, right? With the Cardinals. Well, he wouldn't
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: even get, he wouldn't even sniff a field today. He
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: wouldn't even sniff it. He wouldn't even get, he wouldn't
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: even get a, he'd never get a uniform.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: He might get a AA uniform, but you'd never see
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: him starting for a major league club at shortstop based
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: on his physical abilities. But his mental abilities, David would
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: be at shortstop, and I'm running the defenses, and he'd
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: come in off the field, and I would have seen something.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: He's coming in. He's already telling me what I was
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: going to say. This went on back and forth all
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the time. Everybody was empowered to make decisions. Right now,
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: play the dots, boys. Play the dots. That's what you get.
• 24:04
  Speaker 6: All right, Joe.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Appreciate you, man. Thanks very much. Don't forget you check
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: out Joe's podcast, The Book of Joe, wherever you get
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: your pods.