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9: Building Indigenous Agriculture at Scale with Camden Lawrence · The Future Herd

• 0:02
  Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.
• 0:05
  Welcome to The Future Herd.
• 0:09
  Today's conversation begins with a simple but provocative shift in perspective.
• 0:15
  Across Canada.
• 0:17
  We often talk about indigenous agriculture in terms of food security,
• 0:21
  community gardens, or small scale production, but what happens when
• 0:26
  the conversation moves from feeding communities to feeding the country?
• 0:31
  In this episode of Future Herd, I'm joined by Camden Lawrence from First
• 0:36
  Nations Agriculture and Finance Ontario.
• 0:40
  Camden is working at the intersection of agriculture, capital, and community
• 0:44
  development, helping First Nations farmers and communities think
• 0:49
  not just about participating in agriculture, but about becoming serious
• 0:54
  commercial players in the sector.
• 0:57
  Our conversation explores the realities behind that ambition, the economies
• 1:02
  of scale in modern agriculture, the barriers and opportunities around
• 1:07
  access to capital, and the challenge of building agricultural enterprises
• 1:12
  large enough to supply the buyers that dominate today's food system.
• 1:17
  Camden also reflects on how First Nations communities are beginning to think
• 1:21
  differently about agriculture, not only as a path to food sovereignty, but as
• 1:27
  an opportunity for economic leadership.
• 1:30
  It's a conversation about risk, scale, and imagination, and about what the
• 1:36
  future of agriculture might look like when new players start thinking bigger
• 1:41
  about their role in the food system.
• 1:46
  Camden, welcome to the Future Herd.
• 1:49
  It's a real privilege to have you here.
• 1:52
  I, I expect I'm gonna learn a lot today, but the first question I
• 1:56
  love to throw at our guests is, what does the future mean to you?
• 2:00
  I.
• 2:00
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah, I, right off the bat, um,
• 2:05
  you know, for us, um, you know, our priority is of course agriculture.
• 2:10
  Uh, and we're starting right now, uh, a big push.
• 2:14
  What we're trying to do is, um.
• 2:16
  You know, we hear a lot about food, food, you know, the cost of food, uh, food
• 2:21
  sustainability, um, those kind of things.
• 2:25
  Uh, so what we're trying to do is get First Nation communities and individuals
• 2:30
  more, we're more so doing a push on communities, um, for them to be players,
• 2:36
  uh, more on the commercial level.
• 2:39
  Uh, and the kind of the internal thought we had was, you know.
• 2:43
  Instead of us trying to just feed ourselves, you know, how, why,
• 2:47
  why aren't first Nations also try feeding the whole province, right?
• 2:51
  Why aren't we looking commercial scale?
• 2:54
  Um, and you know,
• 3:00
  as you, you probably know, you know, the, the problem with agriculture is
• 3:04
  it's a, it's a game of scale and, um.
• 3:08
  You, unless you're the small guy loving it and doing it all yourself.
• 3:11
  You got, you gotta, then you're either that guy or you're the guy
• 3:14
  that's, you know, the big, big guy.
• 3:15
  Right?
• 3:15
  So, um, we're looking at, uh, how can communities become bigger players in
• 3:21
  the, in the, in the commercial game.
• 3:24
  Um, and, and that's also from, um, a buyer's perspective too, right?
• 3:28
  We talked to the Sobeys and the metros and, you know,
• 3:31
  they don't, they don't want.
• 3:34
  A hundred chickens, they want 5 million chickens.
• 3:36
  Right?
• 3:36
  So, um, the, it's how do we get over that?
• 3:41
  That, and I don't know if it's a,
• 3:45
  I mean, it's risky, right?
• 3:46
  It's risky, but, um, we're trying to combat that, uh, the fear of being large
• 3:52
  and, and kind of trying to show our First Nation clients the upside of that, right?
• 3:57
  That there is potential.
• 4:00
  And then for the fortunate thing is in, when in then we talk, we talk
• 4:03
  food is, uh, everyone's got to eat.
• 4:06
  Um, you know, and we're not, we're not gonna stop eating, um, anytime soon.
• 4:13
  Jesse Hirsh: I think that's one of the key reasons I got
• 4:15
  into the agricultural sector.
• 4:17
  'cause it really does feel like it's kind of recession proof.
• 4:20
  People always gotta be eaten, as you say.
• 4:23
  I, I do want to talk today also about scale, which you kind of evoked, and the
• 4:27
  larger issue of access to capital, which is something that farmers right across the
• 4:32
  country, uh, really talk about and need.
• 4:35
  But how does access to capital play out within First Nations,
• 4:38
  uh, and indigenous farmers?
• 4:40
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yes.
• 4:41
  Um, definitely capital and Capital's, capital's a problem for.
• 4:46
  I mean everyone, right?
• 4:48
  Uh, and especially now in today's economy, money's getting even tighter.
• 4:52
  Um, you know, our organisation has been going since 84 and 1984,
• 4:57
  and we've been growing farms and businesses, um, for all those years.
• 5:03
  Um, and we're even as an organisation now.
• 5:07
  'cause, you know, when I started, you know, a great loan was
• 5:11
  a, you know, $10,000 tractor.
• 5:13
  Kind of thing.
• 5:13
  And you know, that's great, right?
• 5:15
  You got got get a tractor there.
• 5:16
  Well now it's like, you know, it's like a hundred, $150,000 tractor, right?
• 5:21
  And it's almost the same thing we bought for 10, 10 years ago, right?
• 5:26
  Um, so, so the crunch on capital, um, and, you know, where we would get,
• 5:32
  you know, a farm startup a couple years ago was 200 grand where it's,
• 5:36
  you know, farm startup now is, is almost capitally impossible, right?
• 5:41
  You're looking at 2 million.
• 5:43
  Kind of to get going.
• 5:44
  Um, so we're, for us on the capital side, we're pushing, you know,
• 5:49
  governments and, and agencies much bigger than us at, you know, um, making
• 5:54
  capital easier, providing capital.
• 5:57
  But also, you know, if agriculture is a priority in, in food and that
• 6:03
  kind of thing, it's, well, you can't, you can't get $3 million at
• 6:09
  eight, you know, 8% and, and make it.
• 6:12
  Right.
• 6:12
  It's, it's gotta be at two, three.
• 6:15
  Um, you know, we, we, we all need to, um, sustain ourselves and keep everything
• 6:23
  going, but, um, there's a point where you just can't make a payment on that
• 6:29
  amount of money, um, and provide food.
• 6:34
  Um, where we're a little different back to kind of the financing is,
• 6:39
  you know, we're kind of the only.
• 6:40
  Uh, if it's a community or an on reserve venture, um, for many, many years
• 6:46
  we were the only player in the game.
• 6:47
  We were the only one that would be there to provide those loans.
• 6:51
  Um, with the change in Canada and Ontario, you know, FCC now will come to the table.
• 6:59
  Uh, the big banks, maybe they're, they're still grasping how it works.
• 7:04
  Um, and it's, and it's kind of funny, right?
• 7:06
  'cause we have these conversations with the big banks and those
• 7:08
  kind of things and, and.
• 7:11
  They, 'cause we're, we're asking for capital too, uh, to grow and,
• 7:15
  and help these farms and businesses.
• 7:17
  And, uh, they're like, oh, well, well, like how, how do you do lending?
• 7:21
  And like, how do you lend to these people?
• 7:22
  And it's like, well, the same way you do, they're people.
• 7:25
  They, you know, just because they live on a territory doesn't make
• 7:29
  them any different, you know?
• 7:31
  Um, and it's kind of.
• 7:33
  Where we found success is it's, it's almost in building
• 7:36
  bonds and building trust.
• 7:37
  Right.
• 7:37
  With the, with the, you know, if they, they feel the trust that we given them
• 7:41
  and we, we don't, we don't need as much security 'cause we're here to help them.
• 7:45
  And they understand that.
• 7:46
  And, and, uh, it usually comes back around, right?
• 7:50
  Where we've had clients, we've had clients go under and, and go bankrupt.
• 7:55
  And, and we didn't even know because they kept paying us.
• 7:58
  And, and walk away from everything else, right?
• 8:00
  Because it was, we were there to help them and, and support them.
• 8:06
  Jesse Hirsh: What's interesting here is I think you're evoking a different model of
• 8:09
  trust and a different model of community.
• 8:12
  Certainly one that I think the banks, uh, don't even consider and, and,
• 8:17
  and perhaps can't even understand.
• 8:19
  And given the amazing work that you guys have been doing in
• 8:23
  the sector, in your community.
• 8:25
  Do you get that kind of respect when you know the FCC and the other banks kind of
• 8:30
  work with you guys, or at least work in the same space as you, you know, can they
• 8:34
  not only acknowledge the value that that you bring, but also the trust that, that
• 8:40
  you've built these relationships with communities that they want access to?
• 8:44
  Does it allow you to kind of be part of that, uh, economic
• 8:48
  and social infrastructure?
• 8:50
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, and it, and it's like, uh,
• 8:53
  it's, it's challenging, right?
• 8:54
  Like we had a, um.
• 8:56
  You know, COVID has changed everything.
• 8:58
  One, but, you know, we had a, a mandate before COVID that, you know, before we did
• 9:03
  any alone, we had to meet with everybody.
• 9:06
  You know, we had to sit down, have a meeting, whether it was, you
• 9:09
  know, at the business, at the farm, you know, this is me, I'm here.
• 9:14
  You know, face to face, face-to-face.
• 9:15
  Um, COVID unfortunately has kind of put a, a different mood on that.
• 9:19
  But we still, we still nowadays, um, after COVID still have gotten back into.
• 9:25
  Trying to meet with everyone and, and put a face to.
• 9:29
  And I think in today's, today's world, you know, you can, you can buy a, buy
• 9:35
  a house or, you know, get anything you want and never talk to anybody.
• 9:39
  Right?
• 9:39
  Fill out your application, get all your money, and, and you don't know
• 9:42
  if you're talking to a human or a computer or, or those kind of things.
• 9:45
  So I think there's still, there's still a lot of merit and
• 9:48
  value in connecting, uh, and.
• 9:53
  Knowing that, um, who you're working with, if you pick up the phone and
• 9:57
  call that, you know, the person you're talking to kind of thing.
• 10:02
  Um, and as you know, in, in terms of the, the large or big banks, governments,
• 10:09
  uh, those kind of things, I, you know, I, I think they still want, want those
• 10:14
  relationships, wanna build those values.
• 10:16
  But it's harder right?
• 10:16
  When you get to thousands and.
• 10:20
  Or more employees.
• 10:21
  It's, it's more and more challenging.
• 10:23
  We're, we're still, you know, we're still a team of seven people.
• 10:27
  Um, you know, we're not huge.
• 10:30
  Um, so we, we have that ability to be more, more connected, more involved.
• 10:34
  It is challenging, right?
• 10:36
  And also in us, like we, we service the whole province.
• 10:39
  So, you know, for, for one of us to get up to the Sioux or Thunder Bay, you know,
• 10:46
  it, it's not, it's not easy, but, um.
• 10:49
  And I, um, we, we do go up there every once in a while
• 10:52
  and visit our, our odd clients.
• 10:54
  Um, but uh, in building those relationships, it's definitely,
• 10:59
  definitely helped us out, um, in terms of, you know, building that
• 11:05
  trust you were talking about.
• 11:06
  Right.
• 11:07
  Um, and in the end it's, it's, we have different motto.
• 11:11
  Motto, sorry.
• 11:12
  So it's different models than, you know, we're not-for-profit where, um.
• 11:17
  The banks are for profit, right?
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  So we're, we're more in the mindset of, you know, we're not here to make
• 11:21
  the money, we're here to help you, um, or help the client, let's say.
• 11:25
  Um, and, and our goal is helping, helping the client not, you know,
• 11:30
  how much money can we make off of, um, starting this farm, right?
• 11:35
  So this is,
• 11:38
  Jesse Hirsh: You know, I might reckon that one of the benefits of a smaller
• 11:41
  organisation is you're not isolated the way people in large enterprises or banks
• 11:47
  are kind of compartmentalised and only see a little piece, whereas you really get a
• 11:53
  sense, I, I'm assuming, of the, uh, on.
• 11:56
  Ontario indigenous agricultural sector of what?
• 11:59
  Different First Nations, uh, different scale of operations.
• 12:04
  Uh, can you share that?
• 12:05
  Can you give us a sense of kind of what's going on there and
• 12:08
  what the landscape looks like?
• 12:10
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, and that's kind of what
• 12:11
  we're, we're working on right now.
• 12:13
  Right?
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  It's, um.
• 12:15
  The unfortunate thing is when you look at First Nation communities, and I don't have
• 12:19
  a vast knowledge of, you know, outside of Ontario pretty well 'cause I've been so,
• 12:24
  so versed in learning them all in Ontario.
• 12:27
  But if you look at the, at, at Ontario for example, a lot of our
• 12:32
  First Nation communities are in, have been moved to, are now are in the
• 12:36
  worst spots for agriculture, right?
• 12:39
  So it's, you know, um, so now it's like, well.
• 12:43
  Luckily with technology and those kind of thing.
• 12:46
  Uh, well, the advancements in technology, we can now, um, greenhouses, um, you
• 12:51
  know, ccan type, uh, growing facilities.
• 12:56
  There's potential to create operations kind of anywhere.
• 13:00
  Um, but it's still
• 13:05
  limited to what a community can do, right?
• 13:07
  So you're not gonna.
• 13:09
  You know, because we have a successful operation down in Southern Ontario who's
• 13:12
  a cash cropper, and they, they, they
• 13:17
  grow or, or work, you know, 2000 acres and, but a community up on
• 13:22
  the North Shore is not gonna be like, well, we wanna be like them.
• 13:24
  Well, you can't, you live on, you can live on a pile of rocks.
• 13:28
  Right.
• 13:29
  That's, that's not an option.
• 13:30
  Right.
• 13:30
  So it's a lot of it in.
• 13:32
  Right now what we're, we're working with communities, um, in
• 13:36
  trying to, what, what can you do?
• 13:39
  Uh, right.
• 13:40
  So then the North Shore guys, it's like, well, you're prime for maple syrup, right?
• 13:46
  Like, um, let's, let's see how,
• 13:51
  let's see where that can go.
• 13:52
  But it's, it's also, um, develop, working with the community and
• 13:55
  what they want to do, right?
• 13:57
  Because the, the other side to this is employment, right?
• 14:00
  So it's.
• 14:02
  The lack of employment in, in a lot of First Nation communities.
• 14:05
  So, um, agriculture's a lot of labour usually.
• 14:12
  Um, so it's what does the community want to do?
• 14:15
  So once, if we can get that support, if get the employment in, our
• 14:20
  idea is to try to create a large.
• 14:25
  Commercial operation, be it, be, you know, your community is the, is
• 14:29
  is the specialist in this, right?
• 14:31
  And, and, and take that running.
• 14:33
  And then the, the other idea is usually First Nations are
• 14:37
  kind of clumped together.
• 14:38
  So it's, you know, how can, like, say these three, work together in maybe
• 14:42
  a project in that these guys have the pasture so they're gonna grow the beef
• 14:48
  and then, well, you guys aren't as big, but you could put up the processing
• 14:53
  facility and we'll help you get.
• 14:54
  Federally approved.
• 14:55
  So it, it's only going a mile down the road and it's here, and then
• 14:58
  these guys maybe are, are packaging, you know, so it's just how can
• 15:03
  we, how can we work together?
• 15:05
  Um, and that's kind of our new, our new initiative, um, in, in what
• 15:12
  we're trying to put together anyways.
• 15:13
  And, and then how can that then go outwards into the problem,
• 15:17
  not only help that First Nation and the local First Nation?
• 15:20
  But then it also helped, uh, you know, and, and the cool thought, we
• 15:25
  thought was, well, wouldn't it be cool if, you know, all the First Nation
• 15:28
  communities helped the entire province?
• 15:31
  Right.
• 15:32
  To kind of back to, you know, why can't we be the leaders we're looked at to, you
• 15:37
  know, as well, what did you used to do?
• 15:40
  But it's like, we're past what we used to do, unfortunately.
• 15:43
  Right?
• 15:43
  We're, we're, you know, so how can we move forward and, and, and.
• 15:49
  Be back to kind of leaders in, in what we're doing now.
• 15:53
  Jesse Hirsh: Wow.
• 15:53
  That really raises a brilliant insight into the barriers to entry
• 15:57
  that people right across the country face when it comes to agriculture.
• 16:01
  Except, again, you're evoking a really community centric model in which
• 16:06
  rather than think about the farmer as this hero on their own, on a quest,
• 16:11
  instead, it's a community project.
• 16:14
  In which, you know, the farmer is not acting alone, but has
• 16:17
  the support of, you know, many hands making for a lighter load.
• 16:21
  How can we lower those barriers to entry and, and are you
• 16:25
  essentially making an on-ramp to the agricultural sector as a whole?
• 16:30
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah.
• 16:31
  And, and I think that, you know, and I'm not just talking First Nation
• 16:34
  communities, like if, say if we looked at, you know, a small town, right?
• 16:38
  I grew up in a small town, and let's say that small town said, oh, we're
• 16:43
  all gonna work together to do this.
• 16:44
  You know, that would be well, more efficient than, you know, the
• 16:48
  one guy that has the monstrosity.
• 16:50
  And we are all, you know, like I grew up on, I grew up on a small farm, right?
• 16:54
  And it's when I, when I was.
• 16:57
  And I, and I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm only 35, but when I, all our friends
• 17:02
  kind of had farms and we all kind of worked together and did that kind of,
• 17:06
  you know, I would go help, you know, my friend's dad do hay and then, then we'd
• 17:11
  all go and help his dad do hay, right?
• 17:13
  We all had our small little farms where now if I look at my parents, it's one guy
• 17:18
  owns the whole concession and he comes in with the tractor that cuts, you know.
• 17:25
  It's three rows at once and you know, the square bales are, you
• 17:29
  know, a tonne kind of thing.
• 17:31
  Um, but it's, we've, I think agriculture, we've gotten out of kind of the,
• 17:41
  I dunno, the kind of the small scale helping each other working together.
• 17:44
  I mean, I mean, maybe not, maybe we all still kind of work together.
• 17:47
  Um, but my thought is First Nation communities are kind of already.
• 17:53
  Close knit.
• 17:54
  You know, there's, in any community, we all have our struggles working together.
• 17:57
  But like if, if the community made the plan, the thought would be, you know,
• 18:02
  if we all do this together and like first Asian communities do projects,
• 18:09
  and someone said, well, why aren't they doing agricultural projects?
• 18:13
  And our opinion was, well, no one's pitched or presented that.
• 18:18
  It's a good idea, right?
• 18:20
  Like.
• 18:22
  You should do mining or you should do, you know, those kind of things.
• 18:26
  But the reason they're doing them is because someone said, Hey, it's a good
• 18:31
  idea and these are the benefits, right?
• 18:32
  So we're taking the approach of, well, we should do agriculture.
• 18:37
  It's a good idea.
• 18:38
  Here's the benefits fits, right?
• 18:41
  And uh, and there's a lot of off, like off, I don't wanna
• 18:46
  say kickoffs or kind of sub um.
• 18:49
  To doing a commercial, agricultural operation.
• 18:52
  There's a lot of little, I don't call it like the waste, right?
• 18:56
  The waste that, you know, the chickens that aren't big enough
• 18:59
  or the, the vegetables that aren't, don't look pretty right?
• 19:03
  That, that could feed that, that community or surrounding.
• 19:09
  Speaker 6: I am personally a big fan of waste diversion and what
• 19:12
  the industry calls food upcycling.
• 19:14
  I, I think it's, uh, abhorrent how much food we, we end up throwing
• 19:19
  out just 'cause we can't get it to people who want to eat it.
• 19:22
  And you're really bringing about this kind of sense of innovation.
• 19:26
  That because of the difficult growing conditions, because of the displacement
• 19:31
  that has First Nations on land, that may not have been their choosing.
• 19:35
  There really is a lot of innovation and resilience going on.
• 19:39
  I mean, if you can figure out how to grow food.
• 19:42
  Anywhere in Canada's North that can be applied quite widely.
• 19:47
  So it strikes me there's a real leadership opportunity, especially
• 19:51
  when it comes to maybe smaller agricultural operations, being able to
• 19:55
  experiment, being able to try new stuff.
• 19:57
  Uh, I, I'm curious to hear your thoughts in this regard.
• 20:01
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Well, and there's tonnes of initiative like we're.
• 20:04
  We we're even also just finding out what, finding out about the, a
• 20:08
  lot of things that are on the go.
• 20:09
  Like there's a community up in Northern Ontario that just planted, I think it
• 20:15
  was, and I won't, I dunno the exact number, but let's say it's a hundred
• 20:18
  and some fruit trees and it's all in attest to be like, well, no one's
• 20:26
  ever planted fruit trees over here.
• 20:27
  We have no idea they're cold climate trees, but you know.
• 20:32
  No one's thought, oh, well let's grow fruit up here.
• 20:34
  Right.
• 20:34
  You know, no one knows.
• 20:37
  Um, so there is a lot of, you know, kind of experimental in, in stuff in the works.
• 20:43
  Um, and then there's definitely so many challenges.
• 20:48
  Um, so it, it is gonna be hard, but like, like you said, right?
• 20:53
  If one, if a community figures out, Hey, you know, this worked great up here.
• 20:59
  You know, it doesn't mean, you know, the idea would be that, well, why
• 21:02
  don't all these five communities in this area that are in the same,
• 21:08
  you know, won't they all do it?
• 21:09
  And then we fly it, fly it down, you know, like it's, I don't know.
• 21:15
  We're not gonna know till we try.
• 21:17
  That was my, our thought, you know?
• 21:19
  'cause we, we sat down and it's, 'cause we always had the question,
• 21:23
  the big question we asked was, well, what, what are you guys doing for,
• 21:26
  you know, you guys are the ag guys.
• 21:28
  You know, what are you doing for food security?
• 21:30
  What is, how do we as a community, how do we become food secure?
• 21:34
  You know?
• 21:34
  And, and self-sufficient is the other big word.
• 21:37
  Um, which, you know, in today, I don't think we can be completely
• 21:44
  like a community, right?
• 21:46
  We've gotten to the numbers where we can't be self-sufficient.
• 21:50
  Um, especially my, like, I live in a First Nation community and it's, you
• 21:55
  know, it's, we have, I think it's like 12.
• 21:57
  We have, we have 3000 members in the community.
• 22:00
  But we're like, the idea, the thought of, if, you know, if we did something
• 22:04
  where we're growing this big farm and we're feeding 3000 people for
• 22:08
  free, the 12,000 members, you think they're just gonna be like, well,
• 22:12
  what, you know, I'm coming back.
• 22:14
  I want free food.
• 22:15
  Right?
• 22:16
  So it's like all of a sudden, okay, so now it's, we're feeding, feeding 12,000.
• 22:20
  That's not possible in the land size we have.
• 22:24
  Um, so it's like, well.
• 22:26
  What can we do that's in our, in our land size, what can we do that's gonna
• 22:31
  be, we're gonna be experts in this, and then they're gonna be experts.
• 22:34
  And they're gonna be experts and, you know, and then we pile that together
• 22:37
  and it's, oh, we're feeding, you know,
• 22:42
  a pot, you know, a larger, you know, maybe we're feeding the province, right?
• 22:47
  Or, I mean, even that's, that's a 'cause Ontario's so populated, but.
• 22:53
  Jesse Hirsh: You raise a really important point in terms of the on
• 22:56
  res versus off res, uh, populations of various first nations, and the extent
• 23:02
  to which they can kind of leverage, uh, those kind of relationships
• 23:06
  and kind of extend the agricultural operations beyond the community and
• 23:12
  do the kind of marketing and outreach that traditional farmers kind of do.
• 23:17
  But in this case with again, the power.
• 23:20
  Of community.
• 23:22
  I, I, I'm curious if there are advantages to the reality that indigenous folks,
• 23:28
  whether from specific nations or in terms of just larger communities, as
• 23:33
  this happens in urban centres, whether there a kind of resource that can be
• 23:38
  tapped into when it comes to advancing indigenous agriculture as a whole.
• 23:43
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: yes, definitely.
• 23:44
  They definitely are tech, province and the world technically.
• 23:47
  Um.
• 23:49
  But believe it or not, um, in agriculture, most of the agricultural startups that we
• 23:54
  have are off the reserve due to the kind of the restraint of land in a community.
• 24:03
  Right?
• 24:03
  So especially in Southern Ontario, most of the communities that
• 24:08
  have turned into housing, right.
• 24:09
  And even there's a shortage there.
• 24:12
  So most of, um.
• 24:16
  Our agricultural operations that we do do are off reserve.
• 24:19
  And that's also something that we're also trying to push to communities is,
• 24:25
  so there's this, I don't know the exact numbers, I'm not gonna get it right, but
• 24:28
  you know, I think F-C-C-F-C-C has the stat and they said that I think it's like 2030.
• 24:34
  I'm gonna get it wrong no matter what I say.
• 24:36
  But by 2030 it's like 60% of our farms are,
• 24:42
  um, retiring.
• 24:44
  Right.
• 24:45
  So then the other, the other side to this is, well,
• 24:49
  we're trying to pitch also that how come our first nations aren't being
• 24:53
  the ones in line to buy these farms?
• 24:56
  Jesse Hirsh: Yes.
• 24:56
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Right?
• 24:57
  Yes.
• 24:57
  And, and, and you know, if, if, if, 'cause like you're saying, you know,
• 25:01
  it's an established farm is like, so capital, capital intensive, right?
• 25:08
  Um.
• 25:10
  But First Nation communities have more opportunities, I think, um, to
• 25:16
  borrow than First Nation individual.
• 25:19
  Um, and then it's, you know, how do we turn that kind of opportunity into, you
• 25:26
  know, a larger operation or something that then supports the community
• 25:31
  and then supports food production.
• 25:34
  Um.
• 25:36
  Jesse Hirsh: Wow.
• 25:37
  That's a really brilliant policy idea because it kind of closes the
• 25:41
  loop in terms of, on the one hand, addressing the ageing, the demographic
• 25:46
  crisis that affects, uh, farmers right across the country that they
• 25:50
  don't really have succession in place.
• 25:52
  They don't have people who want to take over, and yet First Nations
• 25:56
  have the opposite demographic issue, that there's lots of young people
• 26:00
  and, and really a, a desire to create opportunities for work, for engagement.
• 26:06
  I mean, what a way to not only address the kind of succession and demographics,
• 26:12
  but also empower First Nations, uh, as key players through the agricultural sector.
• 26:18
  I mean, Camden, I I got a joke.
• 26:20
  You got any other brilliant policy ideas sitting around on your table
• 26:24
  that you could share with us?
• 26:26
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: No.
• 26:26
  Well, I mean, a lot of that idea came from, you know, I'm in the same position
• 26:30
  as most right, where my parents have the farm, and my plan was to take it over.
• 26:34
  And, you know, technically it's, there's nothing, nothing
• 26:40
  I can do on that farm that.
• 26:42
  We will make the payment.
• 26:44
  Right.
• 26:44
  So it's like, well,
• 26:47
  you know, and it's not a big farm, right?
• 26:49
  A hundred acres, you know, which is kind of the no man's land of,
• 26:54
  you know, what do you do here?
• 26:56
  You know, I can't have enough, can't have enough animals, I can't grow enough
• 26:58
  crops, you know, to then just, and we're talking Southern Ontario right?
• 27:03
  To justify the 1.5 million that it's worth.
• 27:06
  Um, but with that, with that said, um.
• 27:13
  A First Nation, like I'm talking, I'm talking First Nation communities, looking
• 27:17
  at big, bigger operations and you know, like I know there's, um, opportunities
• 27:26
  coming up every day in terms of, um, greenhouse, greenhouse facilities.
• 27:32
  I know there's a bison farm, like those kind of things.
• 27:35
  And you would, it, it's, it's working out how.
• 27:41
  You know, how we get, uh, those first nations stepping in and saying,
• 27:47
  how do we, how do we get this?
• 27:48
  And then how do we take it to the next level?
• 27:51
  Um,
• 27:54
  with also, you know, the other big thing that we're working on is how do we,
• 27:59
  how do we get training in place, right?
• 28:00
  Because it's not like, you know, these, and even for, for,
• 28:04
  you know, for anyone, right?
• 28:06
  It's, you can't.
• 28:09
  A big thing is, you know, there's not a tonne of agriculture education
• 28:13
  and it's, it's not super specific.
• 28:15
  So it's, you know, how do you get someone that may be interested in
• 28:18
  agriculture and then the community buys, let's say a large dairy operation.
• 28:24
  You know, it's like, well, how do we get those on a fast track training?
• 28:28
  Or is there a possibility where we say, Hey, we're gonna buy this farm off you
• 28:31
  guys as a community, but you guys have to stay for two years and we'll pay you.
• 28:37
  To train, train, train us, right.
• 28:38
  To to, mm-hmm.
• 28:40
  You know, to, so it doesn't fall flat on its face after we buy it.
• 28:45
  Right.
• 28:46
  Um, and a lot of that's passed down, you know, usually generation to generation.
• 28:52
  Right.
• 28:52
  But if we're, if we're looking at a first generation getting into it, you know.
• 29:00
  That's one of the challenges.
• 29:02
  And I think one of the other positives to commercial scale is one of the big things
• 29:07
  with what we've seen over the years is, well, we're not, communities are saying,
• 29:13
  well, we're not getting people that are, or we're not getting enough employees to
• 29:17
  work for us, and those kind of things.
• 29:19
  And it's, well, you, what are you paying them?
• 29:22
  Right?
• 29:22
  Like for example, in our community, the, the cannabis boom was huge and.
• 29:27
  And even for our organisation, we were looking for employees and it's
• 29:30
  like, well, why would I come work for you when I can go stand in a pot
• 29:33
  shop and make 50 bucks an hour cash?
• 29:36
  And it's like, you know, so, so there's this thing where it's like commercial
• 29:41
  scale should be and maybe smoke on the job and, and smoke all day on the job.
• 29:45
  Exactly.
• 29:46
  Um, where it's, you know, we have to be able to create operations
• 29:51
  that are gonna provide a wage that justifies people being there.
• 29:55
  Right.
• 29:56
  So it's, it's almost too, so now we have to go commercial scale, right?
• 30:03
  Jesse Hirsh: I do wanna speak to scale, but you brought something up when you
• 30:07
  mentioned mining that I think is really important and it, it gets to the kind of
• 30:11
  literacy that exists within a community or specifically within leadership in
• 30:16
  that because mining is, uh, such a hot topic here in Ontario and it's
• 30:21
  certainly getting a lot of attention.
• 30:23
  People learn about it.
• 30:24
  Right.
• 30:25
  They think about the opportunities, the infrastructure opportunities,
• 30:28
  the employment opportunities, the broader community concerns.
• 30:32
  But agriculture on the other hand, kind of gets taken for granted.
• 30:36
  It's the thing we sort of, you know, like our food just assume it's gonna be there.
• 30:42
  How do we foster that kind of agricultural literacy, especially amongst leaders
• 30:47
  so that they start recognising the kind of opportunities that exist
• 30:52
  both in the agricultural sector.
• 30:54
  But as we mentioned earlier, in terms of innovation within the agricultural
• 30:58
  sector, so that farming and agriculture kind of has the same appeal or the
• 31:04
  same profile as the mining sector.
• 31:08
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: And I think it starts back
• 31:09
  with education, right?
• 31:11
  Like I went to, you know, I went to the type of high school that, you
• 31:15
  know, the kids, the dairy farmers wore their barn boots right to
• 31:19
  school, kind of, kind of place.
• 31:21
  And um, and they were just there because their parents made them there
• 31:26
  and they couldn't wait to, you know, be done with school just to work
• 31:28
  on the farm all day kind of thing.
• 31:30
  But I was in that high school and you know.
• 31:34
  I didn't learn anything about agriculture technically.
• 31:36
  Um, well, it's not really, it's not like not a topic or not like,
• 31:41
  unless you're doing a co-op and going and working on a farm.
• 31:44
  It's not really something that is pushed or even talked about.
• 31:48
  But it's, someone told me the other day, so, and I don't know if you follow
• 31:54
  the news, but in, so I live in Tanga and you know, we had the a hundred and
• 31:59
  some odd million dollar pot fus, right?
• 32:02
  All the illegal pop bus in the community and all these greenhouses.
• 32:06
  All these things.
• 32:08
  And then I was talking to somebody and they're like, you know what?
• 32:10
  You know, it's amazing they were growing it.
• 32:12
  Those kind of things.
• 32:14
  But they're like, at the current price, they would've made more
• 32:17
  money growing basil plants.
• 32:21
  Jesse Hirsh: Yes.
• 32:21
  , camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yes.
• 32:22
  Right.
• 32:22
  And it's like, well, why can't we, you know?
• 32:26
  'cause a basal plant technically goes for more than a pot plant right now.
• 32:30
  So they're like, if they grew that many basil plants, they actually would've
• 32:33
  made more money and not gone to jail.
• 32:37
  So I think it's just education in, you know, we, we all go to the store and see
• 32:42
  the prices and pay, you know, 10 bucks for this basil plant or whatever, right?
• 32:48
  But it never occurs, well, if I grew, you know, a million of these, right?
• 32:53
  So I think it's just education in that, you know, food's not gonna go away.
• 32:58
  Um, ever, you know, or the need for food.
• 33:02
  So it's like, how do we educate and get to the point?
• 33:08
  Like, another story is we had a client that agriculture, loved agriculture,
• 33:14
  went to school for agriculture and he wanted to become a potato farmer in
• 33:20
  Toronto, and we're like, not gonna happen.
• 33:24
  And, uh, but he did it.
• 33:25
  He did it right and he bought all the equipment and he, he talked
• 33:31
  to all the big farmers in the area and he rotationally did 10 acres
• 33:36
  every year by himself of potatoes.
• 33:38
  And his motto to the grocery store was, um, I will harvest
• 33:45
  the potatoes and get them to your grocery store in less than 12 hours.
• 33:51
  Like they're outta the ground and in your grocery store cleaned in less than
• 33:54
  10 hours or 12 hours, and he made over a hundred thousand dollars a year doing that
• 34:01
  . On 10 acres of potatoes.
• 34:02
  So it's like there's opportunities because you know, all the other potatoes come from
• 34:07
  who knows where, you know, he advertised, you know, no chemicals pick that day.
• 34:13
  Like you can't get anything fresher.
• 34:15
  And he sold for a premium price and, and made a tonne of money.
• 34:18
  But it's like.
• 34:21
  If you're not in it, you don't know that
• 34:23
  Jesse Hirsh: Although I think even if you are in it, that doesn't mean you know it.
• 34:27
  The nature of the agricultural sector is, it's really complicated.
• 34:31
  It's wide, broad, diverse.
• 34:34
  I mean, just your point about recognising that Basel will get you a better margin
• 34:38
  than, say, growing marijuana plants.
• 34:41
  I mean that that's.
• 34:42
  Pretty significant, and it's not the type of thing that people really think about.
• 34:46
  I think part of it reflects how as the industry has become consolidated,
• 34:52
  there just aren't enough people experimenting, thinking, doing crazy
• 34:56
  things, and maybe that's the benefit of not just having communities engaged
• 35:01
  the sector, but of having new actors that they'll think of new stuff to try.
• 35:05
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah.
• 35:06
  And that's a good question, right?
• 35:07
  And that's kind of what we're kind of pondering, right?
• 35:10
  Like how do we.
• 35:12
  You know, because how do we get the youth involved?
• 35:15
  How do we get the kids involved in showing them that, you know, 'cause
• 35:18
  they're seeing, you know, they're seeing the headline, you know, oh, there's, you
• 35:22
  know, 12 million, whatever it was, right?
• 35:25
  X million a hundred.
• 35:26
  It was like 120 some million worth of pot plants.
• 35:29
  They're like, oh, look at the money in pot.
• 35:31
  Right?
• 35:31
  And it's like, you know, but no one's saying, you know, the article,
• 35:35
  you know, that could have been.
• 35:37
  250 million in basil, you know, like,
• 35:42
  but yeah, it's, and to your point as well, right?
• 35:45
  Like the guy that does the potatoes, no big potato farmer is gonna be doing that.
• 35:51
  You know, they're gonna harvest them, they're gonna put the chemicals on them,
• 35:55
  you know, says there is opportunity, like there is opportunities for the small guys.
• 35:59
  And I'm not saying that, you know, like that guy that does the 10 acres of
• 36:03
  potatoes, he works like a madman, right?
• 36:05
  Like he harvests in the morning.
• 36:07
  He washes them all bags.
• 36:08
  The mall drives them to the store himself, like it's a one man show, but he loves it.
• 36:13
  Right?
• 36:13
  So it's also how do we create that love for agriculture,
• 36:20
  Jesse Hirsh: I think part of what I'm hearing in your remarks is a different
• 36:23
  approach to scale, and as we mentioned earlier, you know, scale is obviously a
• 36:28
  huge focus for the agricultural sector.
• 36:30
  Everyone wants to scale, to focus on exports, to be able to afford
• 36:35
  the equipment, do the kind of operations that you can't do.
• 36:39
  If to your point, you only have a hundred acres.
• 36:42
  But you're kind of describing a, again, a community centric model of scale
• 36:47
  where it's not just larger operations, but multiple communities cooperating,
• 36:52
  cooperating together, you know, sharing different elements of what would
• 36:56
  make, uh, value added production.
• 36:59
  Uh, I'd love to hear you unpack that a little.
• 37:02
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: No, no, for sure.
• 37:03
  And that was kind of another thought we had is, you know,
• 37:08
  'cause we talked, you know.
• 37:09
  Um, we get approached by Metro and Sobeys and the food lands, right?
• 37:14
  We, like, we get calls and say, Hey, we need, you know,
• 37:19
  a pile of this, right?
• 37:20
  And it's like, well, we have no one growing that much.
• 37:24
  And even if we compiled, let's say all of our guys, they're
• 37:27
  not gonna grow that much.
• 37:29
  Um, but I do think that the potentially our, 'cause another question is, you
• 37:35
  know, from a community asking us, well.
• 37:39
  Who are we gonna sell it to, right?
• 37:40
  Like, we're gonna grow all this and, you know, our community can't buy it all.
• 37:44
  Like, so the thought was, you know,
• 37:49
  if we got moving forward, there's power in creating a, a brand, right?
• 37:57
  Like, you know, who's the community that's maybe the, you know, there's tonnes of
• 38:02
  small communities that have no land.
• 38:03
  It's like, well put up a warehouse and you're the, you package everything.
• 38:08
  Right.
• 38:08
  Like it's under one brand and, and then it goes from there to whoever the buyer is.
• 38:13
  Right?
• 38:14
  Um, but that's, I mean, that would be the end goal and we're
• 38:20
  still at, at, uh, step one.
• 38:22
  But, but no, I definitely think there's, um, you know, to, I think there would
• 38:30
  be my opinion, uh, a premium price on, you know, like, oh, we knew this.
• 38:35
  They look for the logo or the brand and it's, we know that was grown by a First
• 38:39
  Nation community and you know, there could be a story behind it and what
• 38:45
  community it came from and the care that went into it, or how it was grown and um.
• 38:53
  Jesse Hirsh: I totally agree, and if we look at, for example, how consumers have
• 38:58
  treated organic food in the marketplace, whether as a category or specific brands
• 39:03
  within it, it does suggest that if there was a First Nations affiliated brand
• 39:09
  or a broader indigenous brand in the marketplace, that a lot of Canadians
• 39:14
  would feel really good supporting it.
• 39:17
  Kind of speak to the, the, the value and perception that can
• 39:21
  be played by empowering these communities to be part of the sector.
• 39:26
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, and the other thought too was,
• 39:28
  and I am taken this from another colleague, this is not my idea.
• 39:32
  But he's, he was saying his vision in this kind of thing is, you know,
• 39:37
  you go to every grocery store and there's an international aisle, right.
• 39:41
  Or two international aisles.
• 39:43
  He goes, but there's no, there's no indigenous aisle I
• 39:48
  Right.
• 39:48
  In any grocery store.
• 39:49
  Right.
• 39:50
  You're lucky to even get one, one indigenous brand in the store,
• 39:54
  but 'cause it, because it's hard.
• 39:56
  Right.
• 39:56
  It's definitely hard.
• 39:57
  But, but hi, his vision is to, to have a full, you know.
• 40:01
  Indigenous aisle in, you know, whatever chain he's talking to.
• 40:05
  Right.
• 40:06
  But, but like, it's, it's, it's definitely there's opportunity and,
• 40:11
  and everyone's open to the idea.
• 40:14
  It's just how do we, how do we get the production, how do we
• 40:17
  get the people interested, the community's interested, um, and,
• 40:21
  and start getting production going.
• 40:24
  Right.
• 40:24
  And, and that's where we're kind of putting the pieces together.
• 40:28
  But it's, it's.
• 40:31
  It's definitely, definitely not easy, right?
• 40:32
  Like there's a lot of pieces of the puzzle, training capital, um,
• 40:38
  getting a community to come together.
• 40:40
  Um,
• 40:41
  Jesse Hirsh: I would certainly love to have you back to talk more about
• 40:44
  those pieces and the way in which they kind of start connecting together.
• 40:48
  And I, I've certainly benefited from, you know, your wisdom, your,
• 40:52
  your perspective in terms of what's happening a, a across the sector.
• 40:57
  You know, two questions, uh, before we end.
• 40:59
  Uh, the first, is there anything that we haven't talked about that
• 41:03
  we should before we conclude?
• 41:05
  I.
• 41:05
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, I'll just, one other, one other
• 41:07
  thing that we are working on that oh, we would have to talk about next time we're
• 41:11
  on the call is, um, we are working, uh, part of this bigger idea is, um, we have
• 41:18
  started conversations with the quota holders, the quota, what do you call them?
• 41:24
  Boards or.
• 41:25
  Jesse Hirsh: Like dairy
• 41:26
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Um, yeah, dairy, chicken,
• 41:27
  those kind of things.
• 41:28
  Turkey that.
• 41:29
  Yeah.
• 41:29
  And how, and how that would play, you know, how do we get First
• 41:33
  Nations, um, in holding quota?
• 41:37
  Um, you know, we're all familiar kind of with the quota world
• 41:40
  and in some instances mm-hmm.
• 41:43
  Um, when quota came out, it was removed from First Nation people that held, not,
• 41:47
  not held it, but that were producers.
• 41:49
  Right.
• 41:49
  Um, there's a couple people in our community that, uh.
• 41:52
  Were dairy farmers at the time, and they weren't eligible for quota
• 41:55
  because they were First Nation.
• 41:56
  So it's how do we, you know, in the spirit of reconciliation, how do we, um, get
• 42:02
  some communities involved in that world.
• 42:05
  Um, so that's, that's, that's in the works.
• 42:08
  Um, but a great opportunity, right, for
• 42:10
  Jesse Hirsh: Mm-hmm.
• 42:11
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: communities . To be in those sectors.
• 42:14
  And, and, uh, it's kind of where the kind of, uh, another little brief story is.
• 42:20
  Um.
• 42:21
  Is, uh, which got me kind of interested in communities doing this, is we have
• 42:26
  a client that, that is a, a chicken holder, um, and raises, um, his, his
• 42:32
  birds, his contracts with Costco.
• 42:35
  And, uh, if we've all been to Costco, you know, they raise, or like,
• 42:39
  you know, those chickens are kind of small turkeys in size, right?
• 42:43
  Um, but I, I was talking to him and I said, well, you know, you just
• 42:48
  put the feed out in chickens, eat.
• 42:49
  Right.
• 42:50
  So what happens if a chicken doesn't meet the Costco 20 pound, you know, 25
• 42:56
  pound benchmark to be a Costco chicken?
• 42:59
  And he goes, well, they don't want them.
• 43:00
  They get, they just get killed.
• 43:02
  It's garbage.
• 43:03
  You know, so it's like . You know, if a First Nation community had
• 43:06
  that contract, how many 18 pound tur chickens could be just in the community?
• 43:16
  Right.
• 43:17
  So it's.
• 43:18
  There's, there's some, there's some exciting things on, on that side, but
• 43:22
  Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
• 43:23
  Uh, now our last question that I'm now starting to ask every guest we have on
• 43:28
  the show is, who are some leaders that you wanna shout out to, uh, people who
• 43:32
  deserve more attention that we should be paying attention to, or that you
• 43:37
  just wanna show some respect towards?
• 43:41
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Oh, um, a big, a big one that's, uh, done some
• 43:46
  big thing in the ag world is, um, Monica.
• 43:50
  Um, Monica James at FCC, she's kind of, um, if you're familiar, they've
• 43:55
  started their, um, indigenous, indigenous, uh, branch of FCC.
• 44:01
  Uh, and that's kind of where we've, um, connected a lot and have moved, moved a
• 44:06
  lot of things forward with FCC and they've definitely jumped on board and, and kind
• 44:10
  of have, let's say, have our back in terms of the capital, the capital side, and,
• 44:15
  and we're starting to work with them.
• 44:17
  Um, just, uh, just.
• 44:19
  The N-C-I-A-F is doing, uh, some great things there as well.
• 44:24
  Um,
• 44:25
  Jesse Hirsh: Awesome.
• 44:26
  Thanks Camden, and I really appreciate you coming on the show.
• 44:29
  We definitely have to get you back.
• 44:31
  You know, you evoked, uh, the word reconciliation and while on the one
• 44:35
  hand I think encouraging and supporting, uh, the expansion of indigenous agri.
• 44:40
  Culture is a great example of that.
• 44:43
  But I also think it's a leadership opportunity.
• 44:45
  'cause as you've demonstrated today, I think there's a lot that we can be
• 44:49
  learning from First Nations who engage farming, who engage the food sector and
• 44:54
  do so on terms of their own, that match their culture and that bring innovation
• 44:59
  I think that we can all learn from.
• 45:01
  So, uh, thank you very much.
• 45:03
  camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: No, definitely.
• 45:04
  Um, like we're just at the beginning of this, this kind of say journey,
• 45:09
  uh, in, in how do we, how we really become agricultural, uh, I don't
• 45:16
  want to call it leaders, right?
• 45:17
  Um, in the, in the province.
• 45:19
  And yeah, it'd be, it'd be great to reconnect and, uh, see
• 45:23
  where we're at in a, in a maybe a year's time or so, and, uh.
• 45:29
  Talk about some of the, some of the projects we actually got on the go.
• 45:33
  Speaker 17: Before we close, I wanna return to something that surfaced
• 45:37
  several times in this conversation.
• 45:40
  The difference between talking about opportunity and actually building the
• 45:44
  conditions that make opportunity possible.
• 45:47
  What Camden helped illuminate is that indigenous agriculture in Canada
• 45:52
  isn't just about producing food.
• 45:54
  It's about building institutions, building access to capital, and building the
• 45:59
  capacity for communities to participate in an industry that is becoming increasingly
• 46:05
  complex and capital intensive.
• 46:08
  Agriculture today rewards scale, coordination and long-term investment.
• 46:13
  And those realities shape what kinds of projects are possible and
• 46:18
  how they need to be structured.
• 46:21
  But what also comes through clearly is that there is real momentum
• 46:25
  across First Nations communities.
• 46:27
  There's growing interest in agriculture, in agribusiness,
• 46:31
  and in the broader food economy.
• 46:33
  And organisations like First Nations Agriculture and Finance Ontario are
• 46:39
  working in the middle of that space, helping translate ambition into viable
• 46:44
  projects, helping communities navigate financing and helping new producers
• 46:50
  find their footing in a sector that can be very difficult to enter.
• 46:55
  For the rest of the AgriFood sector, there's an important lesson here as well.
• 47:00
  Indigenous agriculture is not just a social initiative or a
• 47:04
  policy conversation, it's an emerging part of the economic
• 47:09
  landscape of Canadian agriculture.
• 47:11
  And as Camden pointed out, the question going forward is not simply
• 47:15
  whether indigenous communities will participate, but how they will shape
• 47:20
  the sector as that participation grows.
• 47:25
  Camden, thank you for sharing your perspective and for giving us a
• 47:28
  clear picture of the work underway to support not only First Nations
• 47:33
  producers, but the agricultural sector as a whole when we learn from
• 47:38
  each other and embrace the diverse opportunities that are in front of us.
• 47:43
  And of course, to everyone listening, thanks for joining us for another
• 47:47
  episode of The Future Herd.
• 47:49
  I'm Jesse Hirsh.
• 47:51
  I'll see you next time.