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When Independence Turns Into Dishonesty · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: You want your eleven year old to be responsible. You
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: want to give them freedom, but you want to be
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: able to trust them. And sometimes sometimes they don't do
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: the things that you expect them to do so that
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: you can feel like they can be responsible and trustworthy,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden things get tricky. Hello and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today on the pod,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: one of your Tricky Questions a listener question sent through
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: from a mum of an eleven year old who really
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: really wants her son to be independent, but he's just
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: not doing the right thing. How do you confront him?
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  Speaker 1: How do you have a meaningful conversation? How do you
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: get buy in and endorsement of rules that designed just
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to keep him safe. That's what we answer today with
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: your tricky questions on the Happy Families podcast. Stay with us. Hello,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families podcast, Real parenting solutions every
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: single day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast where
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie call some with the parents of six
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: kids and we've got a tricky question to answer today.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: If you have tricky questions, we love hearing from you.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: You can contact us via podcasts at Happy families dot
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: com dot au. Just send us your voice note with
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: his tricky question, or alternatively, jump online to happy Families
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: dot com dot au and scroll down to your see
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: the button that says record start talking and tell us
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: what's on your mind. Just like Justine, Hi.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I've got an eleven year old boy and I'm trying
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: to give him more opportunities to be independent. Part of
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  Speaker 2: that is allowing him to go up to our local
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  Speaker 2: park to kick a ball around with a mate, and
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  Speaker 2: we have agreed boundaries about that that he has to
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: be back at a certain time and he needs to
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: let me know if he's going to be somewhere different
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  Speaker 2: that's not the park. I've found recently that he hasn't
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: been telling me the truth about where he's been going.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: He's been venturing up to the shops and hasn't told
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  Speaker 2: me about it, and he's also started breaking the curfew
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  Speaker 2: and coming home later. I'm not sure how to talk
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: to him about this. I want to keep up a
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: positive connection. I want to talk to you about his
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: reasons for not telling me the whole truth, but I
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  Speaker 2: also want to make sure that he's learning from his decisions,
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  Speaker 2: his bad choices, and that he can learn from the mistake.
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  Speaker 1: So, Kylie, we've dealt with this so many times, trying
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: to give the kids responsibility. You give them an inch
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  Speaker 1: and what a grandma always say, they'll take a mile,
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  Speaker 1: which never made sense to me because I grow up
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  Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty six and I only know I centimeters
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  Speaker 1: and killometers. But three things that jump out at me
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  Speaker 1: straight away before we get into the nitty gritty of
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  Speaker 1: this tricky question. Number One, this is a joint goal.
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  Speaker 1: He wants independence and you want independence. This is a
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  Speaker 1: good thing. This is a good thing. You're both working
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: towards the same thing. It's just that it's got to
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: be in a way that helps you, as a parent
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: that feel safe and secure. We do need to rethink
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: our assumption sometimes the kids are probably going to be okay.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: They're probably going to be okay, but.
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  Speaker 2: You just don't know.
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  Speaker 1: So I get it. I've got a lot of empathy
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  Speaker 1: for of a teenager, sorry, not even a teenage boy,
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  Speaker 1: an eleven year old boy who wants to hang out
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: at the shops, because all sorts of stuff happens there. Secondly,
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  Speaker 1: if you want your kids to be responsible, you need
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  Speaker 1: to give them responsibility. You can't take responsibility away and
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  Speaker 1: expect them to be responsible. They've got to have responsibility.
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  Speaker 1: I think you can see where I'm going to go
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  Speaker 1: with this response to this tricky question. And third, just
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  Speaker 1: to complicate matters, rules matter, but without a relationship, rules
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: lead to rebellion. So Justine's hit everything that matters. We
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  Speaker 1: want him to be responsible and therefore have the opportunity
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  Speaker 1: to enjoy responsibility. We want him to have respect for
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  Speaker 1: the rules, but we've also got to have a relationship.
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  Speaker 1: The connection matters, and we've got this same goal here,
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  Speaker 1: But how do we build trusts? All right, Kylie, I
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: know that technically I'm the one that's quite unquote, the expert,
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  Speaker 1: but as we had a quick chat about this conversation,
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  Speaker 1: you had some big and important ideas.
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  Speaker 3: Justine suggested that the most important thing to her out
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  Speaker 3: of all of this is that she maintains a positive
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  Speaker 3: relationship with her son. That's really important to the ongoing
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: relationship that they that they share. And I think there's
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: a misconception that if we have to sit down with
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  Speaker 3: our children have tricky conversations, that we're going to sever
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  Speaker 3: or damage the positive connections that we have. But it
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  Speaker 3: really comes down to our ability as adults to be
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: emotionally regulated in that moment as we sit with our
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: children and have these tricky conversations.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, legitimate question. How many tricky conversations do you think
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  Speaker 1: we have with our children on a weekly basis, like
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  Speaker 1: almost every day at least a couple Yeah, yes, with
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: six kids, there's just always friction, There's always something going on,
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  Speaker 1: there's stuff that needs has six daughters especially, So how
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  Speaker 1: do we have the tricky questions? We follow the same
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: structure every time. We literally don't change the structure when
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: we're doing it right. The three e's of effective discipline, explore, explain, empower,
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  Speaker 1: But that doesn't just mean that you say the same
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  Speaker 1: thing every time like a robot. An exploration conversation, by
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  Speaker 1: its very nature, is going to be different every single
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: time you have the chat, because people's motivations, people's reasons
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: start to shift. But really, at the core of it,
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  Speaker 1: this is a conversation about building trust, and you build
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: trust best by listening, by understanding one another. And I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: think that there's an opportunity for Justine to get to
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  Speaker 1: know her eleven year old son a little bit more.
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  Speaker 3: So in Justine's case, we want to try and understand
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: why it is that her son has decided that in
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  Speaker 3: spite of the fact that mum is doing everything she
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  Speaker 3: can to show him that she wants to give him
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  Speaker 3: some independence.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, go outside, have fun, kick a ball at the post,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: and she's.
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  Speaker 3: Given him the leeway in the acknowledgment. You may not
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: stay at the park, but if you are going to
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: go somewhere else, just let me know. So the exploration
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: here is trying to understand why he felt that he
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: couldn't ask her, knowing that permission was already granted under
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: those circumstances.
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  Speaker 1: Yep, yep. So is it that he elected not to
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  Speaker 1: or is it just that in the moment with the
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: boys all having fun and we jumped on the bikes,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: all the skateboards of the scooters and whizzed down to
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: the shops because that's what we did. It's also the
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: coming home on time thing. But again, like when you're
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: eleven years old, are you really that bothered about the time?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: So I think there's a developmental element here. But those questions,
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  Speaker 1: those conversations, it's so easy to jump to a conclusion,
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  Speaker 1: isn't and say they're doing this because they're disregarding the rules,
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  Speaker 1: they're abrogating their responsibility. There's something insidious going on, Like
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  Speaker 1: it's really easy to look at the kids and say,
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  Speaker 1: I think you're being rebellious. I think that you're being
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  Speaker 1: intentionally you're intentionally disregarding the things that we've asked, and
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: sometimes I think more often than not, there's no malice.
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  Speaker 1: It's just mindlessness.
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you kind of have a track record right
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: regardless of whether or not your child has left the
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: home before. Are they a child who responds instantly to recommend,
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: you know, to requests, or are they a child that
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: just kind of does things in their own time? Do
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  Speaker 3: they get caught up in things and don't recognize that
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  Speaker 3: they've been there for an extra fifteen minutes before you've
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: had to remind them for the third time. Those conversations
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: are really important because they allow your child to recognize
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: that you are giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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  Speaker 3: You're not jumping to the conclusion like you suggested that
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: they're doing something wrong.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So exploring where he's coming from, what's going on
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  Speaker 1: for you, what's important to you? What are you working towards,
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  Speaker 1: What is it that you really want to have here.
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  Speaker 1: Understanding those things are going to be your first step.
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  Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to talk about the explain
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  Speaker 1: and empower elements of those three ease, but especially how
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  Speaker 1: we can get to a point where your son is
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: going to willingly choose to step into, comply with, and
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  Speaker 1: feel committed to the rules that you develop together. That's
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: the whole box and dice, and it's coming up after
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: the break. We're back. It's another tricky question on The
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast. If you're enjoying the podcast and it's
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: making difference in your family, please share the pod tell
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: others about it, whether you click the links or just
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: open your mouth and let people know what helps other
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: people find out about the podcast and make their families happier. Okay, Kylie,
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  Speaker 1: let's talk about explaining for a sec. Normally, when we
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: start to explain things to our kids, they fall asleep. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I think that that's why it's really important that you
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  Speaker 3: actually take a different tact when it comes to explaining,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: because it's actually not about you explaining. As soon as
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: you start talking, like you said, they shut down. So
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  Speaker 3: for me, it would be asking them, could they take
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  Speaker 3: your perspective for a moment, And how do you think
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  Speaker 3: I'm feeling, as your mum, when I've just suggested to
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  Speaker 3: you that if you want to go somewhere else, just
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  Speaker 3: let me know, and then you not only don't tell me,
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  Speaker 3: I find out later after the fact and you're home late,
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  Speaker 3: how am I feeling?
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  Speaker 2: So?
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  Speaker 1: Research shows that tween and teen boys have a drop
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  Speaker 1: in empathy, like it's really hard for them, But that
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  Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's eliminated from their lives. It just
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  Speaker 1: means that biologically there's this poor away from empathy and
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: it pulled towards ego centrism and it's all about my
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  Speaker 1: perspective and that's all that matters. These kinds of conversations
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: are really good developmentally for your son because they're dragging
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: him sometimes kicking and screaming, back towards an empathy approach
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to the world. If we believe that healthy males help
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  Speaker 1: the people around them feel safer and stronger, one thing
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  Speaker 1: that your son can do is recognize that when he
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: is not communicating with you about his plans, when he's
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: going behind your back or doing things that aren't consistent
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: with the things that you've agreed to, that you don't
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  Speaker 1: feel safe. Because you're worried about his safety, you actually
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: feel disempowered and weakened, and that's not a nice place
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  Speaker 1: to be. And Kylie, the question that you're asking is
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  Speaker 1: it really cuts to the very core of what this
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: is about. Hey, what does it do to me? What
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: does it do to your dad? What does it do
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: to us as a family when we can't find you
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: at the park or when you don't come home on time?
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Just imagine what it's like for us for a sec
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: that's perspective taking, that's empathy. There's another question to ask
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  Speaker 1: as well. And bear in mind this is the explained phase, right,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: So explain is very much about saying here's what you
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: need to know. But Kylie, as you've rightly said, the
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: kids get bored and so it's much better to get
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: them to explain to you what your rules are. If
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: you want to build trust and have this two way relationship.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I think there's value in saying, why do you think
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: we've asked you to do X or y? Why do
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: you think that we only want you to be at
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: the park. Why do you think we want you to
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: communicate with us? What makes us say you've got to
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: be home by such and such a time. As he
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: is able to explain to you why you have set
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: those boundaries ideally together, then he's much more likely to
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  Speaker 1: step in to endorse them.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: If I can explain why the boundaries exist, then I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: can understand them, and I can probably go ahead with
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: them and be committed to them. So exploring is getting
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: his perspective. Explaining is ideally getting him to explain your perspective.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: And sometimes he might not be able to do that
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: because he's in that phase where he doesn't really care
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: what you think.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: You're asking me a question he goes.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: So you might need to tap into somebody that he
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: does care about. Your best mate, you said you were
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: going to meet him at such and such a time
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: and he doesn't show up and he's been gone for
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: half an hour. How do you feel? How does that
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: make you feel? I think just finding a relationship that
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: they really can tap into and find that level of
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: empathy that's needed to understand the dynamics of the relationship
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: that you share together is really important because that's where
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: you get the buy in.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what we're going for is a level of identification
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: with the value. The value is honesty or the value
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: is punctuality, or the value is integrity. So can we
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: get him away from this externalized I'm only doing what
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I said because otherwise I'll get in trouble.
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  Speaker 3: Two Or I don't know what the big deal is.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what the big deal is. So
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: we're getting him to the point where he goes, yeah, okay,
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  Speaker 1: I get it. It matters because of these reasons. He
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily love it. It's not it's not lighting him up.
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  Speaker 1: He's not saying, oh my goodness, I'm a man of integrity.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: So I've got to be home at five pm. That's
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: not what this is about. This is about him going
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I value my relationship with my parents. I respect myself
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: more when I do what I say I was going
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: to do, and people respect me for that as well.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: So therefore I'm going to do that. That's what we're
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: going for, and then we'll get to empower. So this
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: is the thirty This is a.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Really fun part of the conversation, especially if your kids
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: have got buy in.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Right, because you actually creates the buy in.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: You get to collaborate with them. One of the questions
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: you might ask, is I know that we say that
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: we want your home at five o'clock is does five
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: o'clock feel like a fair time for you?
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Based on what his other friends are doing, they
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: might not have to be home.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Tool see make the case for six pm.
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: So let's talk about that. How can I feel good
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: about a six o'clock return and how can you honor
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: that worth saying?
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: If you're not going to feel good about the six
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: o'clock return, your job is to work with your son
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: so that the ultimate goal of empowering your child is
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: not to say you can do whatever you want. It's
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: not carte blanche, it's not total freedom independence. The need
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: that we're trying to support here is the autonomy need.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: And a lot of people think that autonomy means I
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: get to do whatever I choose. That's not it. Autonomy
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: is about endorsing endorsing. So we're trying to get to
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: a point where we can come up with the rule
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: that he can yet behind, that he can endorse. In
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the same way that we don't actually have choice in
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: terms of what side of the road we drive on.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: The government has mandated that we drive on a particular
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: side of the road. But because we get it, it
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: makes sense we buy the rationale. We endorse that, and therefore,
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: even though we're being completely controlled, we still drive on
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: the correct side of the road. We know that it's safe,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: we know that we won't be fined. It just makes sense.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: So that's what we're going for here. You're going to
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: stay in touch. Do you endorse the idea of that? Why? Okay?
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Good builds trust. We can rely on each other. Here,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: we're going to have your home at a certain time.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Why yeah? Cool? Okay? Does that make sense? Can you
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: endorse that as a behavior as a way of moving forward? Yep, okay, cool,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: We can go ahead there.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: So I've been working a lot at the gym since
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: the beginning of the year.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: We're going to have a long conversation about this on Thursday.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I can't wait.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: And as we're talking, the analogies coming to me. When
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: I started at the gym, I was lifting a five
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: kilo weight and I don't just go from five kilos
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: to twenty kilos overnight, right, It doesn't work like that.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: I have to slowly incrementally add weight to my five
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: kilos till I can get to the twenty kilos. And
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: so with our kids, just using the example, we've got
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: from five o'clock to six o'clock. To me, that's like,
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: that's a huge jump. I'm not ready to make that jump.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: But I can talk to him about whether or not
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: we go to five point thirty.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: And if he gains straight that you can be response
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to right, then we can talk about extent.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: We're going to add more weight, We're going to add
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: more trust to the relationship. The other part of this
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: conversation is he wants to go to the shops, which
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: seems like a logical place that he and his friends
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: might end up at at the end of having a
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: play at the park. They might want to go get
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: a drink or an ice cream or or something like that.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: So is it fair that he has to tell you
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: every time he leaves the park that he's going to
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: go down to the shops to get a tree?
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Or could you have an agreed upon two or three
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: or four different places where he could be at ABC
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: or D and so long as he's at those four places,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: that's all that matters. How much do you really have
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: to monitor your eleven soon to be twelve year old son.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because independence is about being able to do things
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: on your own.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, So that's our answer for you, Justine, We really
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: hope that it's helpful. The three ease of effective discipline.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I've written blogs about them will LinkedIn the show notes.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: I've also written about them in my book, and there's
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of content out there to help you
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: to find ways to navigate this with your sign. But
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: we're pretty confident this will do the This will be
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: magic for you.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Don't shy away from having a hard conversation. That's actually
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: how good communication happens.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Another tricky question hopefully answered well and helpfully. Thanks for
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the voice. Note Justine podcasts at happy families dot com
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: dot au. If you would like to hit us with
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: a tricky question, or go to happy families dot com
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: dot you, scroll down to where the record button is
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: and start talking. The Happy Families podcast is produced by
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides additional support and
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: for more info to make your family happier, visit happy
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: families dot com dot au.