Latest / Bloomberg Intelligence / SPECIAL COVERAGE: Trump Hit With $364 Million Fine in NY Fraud Case

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SPECIAL COVERAGE: Trump Hit With $364 Million Fine in NY Fraud Case · Bloomberg Intelligence

0:02
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio.
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Speaker 2: News, breaking news. Here the former President Trump. He has
0:10
Speaker 2: been ordered to pay three hundred and sixty four million
0:12
Speaker 2: dollars for fraud in a New York civil trial. The
0:14
Speaker 2: former president also barred from running his New York company
0:17
Speaker 2: for three years, his sons have been barred from serving
0:19
Speaker 2: as New York executives for two years, and the defendants
0:23
Speaker 2: of the case have lost on all claims in that
0:25
Speaker 2: New York civil fraud trial. Let's now bring in Bloomberg
0:28
Speaker 2: News reporter Greg Farrell, who joins us on the phone,
0:30
Speaker 2: and also Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosso. Greg I
0:33
Speaker 2: do want to.
0:34
Speaker 3: Start with you?
0:35
Speaker 2: This was this verdict widely expected, especially that three hundred
0:38
Speaker 2: and sixty four million dollar figure in general.
0:41
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, given that the judge had found in favor
0:45
Speaker 4: of the age a couple of months ago before the
0:47
Speaker 4: actual trial, and some of the comments and observations that
0:50
Speaker 4: he made leading up to it, it was clear that
0:53
Speaker 4: who's going to hit him fairly hard?
0:56
Speaker 2: And what do you make of the like the put
0:59
Speaker 2: the scale in the of the defeat on this for us,
1:01
Speaker 2: for Trump, because as we know, the president is a
1:04
Speaker 2: former president excuse me, has moved much of his life
1:07
Speaker 2: to Florida at this point, So does it matter that
1:10
Speaker 2: the state of Yeah, go ahead.
1:12
Speaker 4: A the age was seeing a lifetime ban. He only
1:16
Speaker 4: got three years, so that actually went in his favor
1:19
Speaker 4: and his sons. They sought a five year ban against
1:21
Speaker 4: running or being an office for a company in New York,
1:24
Speaker 4: only two years, so that was relatively light on that front. However,
1:29
Speaker 4: the businesses, it's not just as easy as you know,
1:32
Speaker 4: carrying up the paperwork and then reconcept, you know, filing
1:35
Speaker 4: to establish the same businesses in Florida. That's something that
1:39
Speaker 4: has not been resolved yet is whether or not Trump
1:42
Speaker 4: will have to as the business cerpertificates will be canceled,
1:45
Speaker 4: whether or not these properties will have to go into liquidation.
1:47
Speaker 4: So that's not clear from today's ruling. That's that's a
1:50
Speaker 4: big you know, to be determined.
1:53
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I want to bring in Bloomberg News legal
1:55
Speaker 2: analyst June Grossa, who's got a thick stack of paper
1:58
Speaker 2: covering the keyboard right now, and she's made her way
2:00
Speaker 2: through quite a bit of it.
2:01
Speaker 3: June, what are you learning?
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Speaker 1: I have not made my way through quite a bit
2:04
Speaker 1: of it. I just went to the back. I went
2:06
Speaker 1: to the back to look at what he actually what
2:08
Speaker 1: he actually ordered. What Greg said is absolutely true. What
2:13
Speaker 1: I think the worst that could have happened is what
2:14
Speaker 1: they call the corporate death penalty, which didn't happen here.
2:19
Speaker 1: So as Greg said, you know, he is not allowed
2:24
Speaker 1: to do business for three years, his sons for two.
2:28
Speaker 1: And I think I'm looking for the part that I
2:29
Speaker 1: found interesting. Now there's a there's already a judge in
2:34
Speaker 1: place as an independent monitor. That judge is going to
2:37
Speaker 1: continue as an independent monitor. And also the court is
2:41
Speaker 1: ordering an independent director of compliance be installed at the
2:45
Speaker 1: Trump organization who shall be responsible for ensuring good financial
2:49
Speaker 1: and accounting practices, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And
2:54
Speaker 1: the court mentioned that there was an appeal. Trump was
2:57
Speaker 1: making an appeal from some of his findings about the
3:02
Speaker 1: license of the company, and he said that you know
3:07
Speaker 1: I can't find it right.
3:08
Speaker 3: Now, be fair.
3:09
Speaker 2: I just want to paint the picture for everybody listening
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Speaker 2: right now, literally a stack of.
3:13
Speaker 1: What jims it's ninety ninety pages, ninety eight, ninety two.
3:18
Speaker 1: Not to lie, it's only ninety two.
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Speaker 2: I'm impressed with both of you have been able to
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Speaker 2: come up with at this point, Emily take it away.
3:25
Speaker 5: What does this mean for the election. I'm really curious
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Speaker 5: what if there's any implications on this results on question?
3:33
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean this unless he was
3:36
Speaker 1: going to, you know, use his own money for the election,
3:38
Speaker 1: and this will stop him from uh doing that. There
3:41
Speaker 1: really is nothing in this having to do with the election.
3:44
Speaker 1: I mean, the case is that you have to look
3:45
Speaker 1: at for the election or more. The criminal case is
3:47
Speaker 1: one that's been set now for next month in New York,
3:51
Speaker 1: the hush money case, and of course the case in
3:55
Speaker 1: DC that now the Supreme Court is deciding whether or
3:58
Speaker 1: not to put us have a stay on that decision
4:02
Speaker 1: and so put a hold on that case while he
4:05
Speaker 1: appeals it. So, I mean, those are the ones that
4:07
Speaker 1: are really have anything to do with his And it's
4:11
Speaker 1: not so much that it would stop him from runny.
4:13
Speaker 1: It's just that people would be interested and perhaps it
4:17
Speaker 1: would matter to people if he is criminally convicted. This
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Speaker 1: I don't think, you know, so much matters to be
4:23
Speaker 1: But they look at it and they think it's the
4:24
Speaker 1: Trump organization, right, you know, they look at it. It's
4:26
Speaker 1: about okay, he overstated his income, and the Attorney General said, well,
4:33
Speaker 1: you can't do that because that's a business records violation,
4:36
Speaker 1: and you know, you have to disgorge the money that
4:40
Speaker 1: you got as a result of your lies about your
4:43
Speaker 1: net worth. So I don't think people really that will
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Speaker 1: affect them as much.
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Speaker 2: I understand that you and and we've seen polling that
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Speaker 2: that sort of shows that the criminal cases are certainly
4:53
Speaker 2: more important, Greg, Greg Farrell, I want to bring you
4:55
Speaker 2: back in her Bloomberg News reporter Greg Farrell that said
5:00
Speaker 2: everything that June said, I understand at the same time,
5:03
Speaker 2: it costs a lot of money to run for president. Yes,
5:05
Speaker 2: and it costs a lot of mone And this is
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Speaker 2: a three hundred and sixty four million dollars fine. Here
5:10
Speaker 2: is this real money we're talking about, Like.
5:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is real money.
5:14
Speaker 3: He's gonna have to pay this.
5:15
Speaker 4: I mean, like because we're so used to throwing a
5:18
Speaker 4: term billionaire around. Yeah, like everybody he has this unlimited pockets.
5:22
Speaker 4: But no, And my colleague Arett Larsington an excellent article
5:26
Speaker 4: about three weeks ago pointing out like some of the
5:30
Speaker 4: dire fiscal straits, you know, in terms of cash access
5:33
Speaker 4: to real cash that trum pass. He might have to
5:36
Speaker 4: liquidate some of these buildings just to come up with
5:38
Speaker 4: this money. It's not like he has like he's claimed
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Speaker 4: that he has four hundred million in cash available. But
5:44
Speaker 4: you know, as we know, just because he claims it
5:45
Speaker 4: doesn't mean it's necessarily.
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Speaker 1: So he's going to appeal this though, Greg, we have
5:51
Speaker 1: no doubt he's going to appeal it. Then he'll have
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Speaker 1: to either put up the money plus five percent or
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Speaker 1: get a bond, secure a bond.
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Speaker 4: It's tough, like good luck to him getting a bond.
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Speaker 4: It's well known in that community.
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Speaker 3: So well, you talk a little bit about that, Greg,
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Speaker 3: the challenge there, talk a little bit about that.
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Speaker 4: Just that you know, he'd be a difficult guy to go,
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Speaker 4: you know, to give a bond to. He just does
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Speaker 4: not have a good reputation in that community. Yes, he
6:18
Speaker 4: can appeal it, but you can't just use an appeal
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Speaker 4: as an excuse to stop, you know, making a payment,
6:23
Speaker 4: put it off for several years. So, as June pointed out,
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Speaker 4: he'd have to post some of that money, you know,
6:28
Speaker 4: a good chunk of it I think upfront in escrow.
6:31
Speaker 1: And also let's not forget he is appealing the eighty
6:34
Speaker 1: three million dollar e Gene Carrol verdict, So the same
6:37
Speaker 1: thing there, Hill and the last time, the last verdict,
6:41
Speaker 1: the fifteen million dollar. I think it was the first
6:43
Speaker 1: Gene Carol verts. He put up the money himself. He
6:45
Speaker 1: put up the money himself. He put up that plus
6:49
Speaker 1: five percent June.
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Speaker 2: Do we know if the former president is very good
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Speaker 2: at raising money? Yes, very very good at raising money.
6:56
Speaker 2: He's in fact, he used some of his legal challenges
6:58
Speaker 2: to raise money from supporters.
7:00
Speaker 4: Is he a big boom?
7:02
Speaker 3: It has been, Yeah, thank you, Greg, it has been.
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Speaker 2: Is he allowed June to actually use that money to
7:07
Speaker 2: pay these spines?
7:08
Speaker 3: Do we know?
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Speaker 1: I don't think he's allowed to pay the fines with it?
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Speaker 3: Okay? Sorry, go ahead, right?
7:14
Speaker 4: He had not? Those are campaign those are funds for
7:18
Speaker 4: like he could pay for his legal representation. But he
7:21
Speaker 4: cannot pay like the damage's reward. That's like off limits.
7:24
Speaker 2: What about like funding from like a super pac for example,
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Speaker 2: Could that money go for this?
7:31
Speaker 1: I don't think it can. But but the thing is
7:33
Speaker 1: that it's all the super pack stuff is very hazy
7:37
Speaker 1: and things aren't enforced as much as they should be.
7:41
Speaker 1: So but I don't think you can pay from a
7:43
Speaker 1: super pack either.
7:45
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess Greg, what you can tell I'm
7:46
Speaker 2: getting at is is is Trump going to have to
7:49
Speaker 2: open up.
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Speaker 3: His wallet here?
7:50
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yes, and I think so absolutely. And that's that's
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Speaker 4: the real real pain here is the judge came up
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Speaker 4: at the high end of what the ag asked for.
7:59
Speaker 4: I think she asked three hundred and seventy million, and
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Speaker 4: he got like, yeah, as you said, three hundred and
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Speaker 4: sixty four.
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Speaker 5: So what's Trump's number one priority here? What is he
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Speaker 5: doing in the next few hours, in the next few days.
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Speaker 1: Well, that's a good question. I think he's probably going
8:13
Speaker 1: to have a press conference at Mara a Lago. I
8:15
Speaker 1: think that's already been scheduled, and he's going to talk
8:17
Speaker 1: about this. What he will say, I think is what
8:20
Speaker 1: he has been saying in the many press conferences that
8:23
Speaker 1: he held all during this New York Attorney General's trial.
8:26
Speaker 1: He's going to say that this is a witch hunt
8:29
Speaker 1: that Letitia James has been after him. Letitia James campaigned
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Speaker 1: on getting Trump. And also he's going to say that
8:36
Speaker 1: the people in this case, like the Deutsche Banks, the lenders,
8:41
Speaker 1: had no complaint here, and in fact, they didn't there
8:44
Speaker 1: weren't any you know, lenders testifying, Oh, we feel really
8:46
Speaker 1: bad because we got swindled. So they said, well we
8:50
Speaker 1: might have charged more. So he's going to say everyone
8:52
Speaker 1: was very happy. Trump is a brand. It was, so
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Speaker 1: it's going to be the same thing. I can't imagine anything.
8:58
Speaker 3: Different, he Gregor.
9:00
Speaker 2: I want to bring you back in here because one
9:01
Speaker 2: thing that keeps crossing my mind is the way that
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Speaker 2: the former president's sons were implicated in this as well,
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Speaker 2: and that they have been actually banned as well from
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Speaker 2: doing certain things.
9:14
Speaker 3: What do we know.
9:14
Speaker 2: About the way that the Trump family is affected by
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Speaker 2: this ruling today.
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Speaker 4: Well, according to the trial and the findings of fact,
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Speaker 4: you know, the sons in particular, not only unlike Ivanka,
9:28
Speaker 4: who was severed from this and is not part of
9:32
Speaker 4: this in any way, the two sons were helping to
9:34
Speaker 4: run the business for many years until Trump became president,
9:37
Speaker 4: and then in fact we're running the business on his
9:39
Speaker 4: behalf when he was president. And that's in particular where
9:42
Speaker 4: a couple of the charges involving insurance fraud came up
9:44
Speaker 4: that they signed off on and were actively involved in
9:47
Speaker 4: presenting numbers to the insurance companies that were not, you know, accurate.
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Speaker 4: They were overstated.
9:54
Speaker 1: You know, here's I found the part that I it's
9:58
Speaker 1: about the prior cancelation of the business life licenses. And
10:00
Speaker 1: the judge writes that there was partial summary judgment and
10:04
Speaker 1: the Appellate Division First Department has stayed this relief the
10:07
Speaker 1: cancelation of business light licenses, penning the final disposition. He said, however,
10:12
Speaker 1: as going forward, there'll be a two tiered oversight, the
10:15
Speaker 1: independent Monitor and the Independent Director of Compliance of major
10:19
Speaker 1: activities that could lead to fraud. Cancelation of the business
10:22
Speaker 1: license is no longer necessary, so he basically took that back.
10:27
Speaker 2: Hey, I just want to take a break and remind
10:29
Speaker 2: everyone where we are right now, if you're just now
10:31
Speaker 2: joining us. The former President Donald Trump and his real
10:33
Speaker 2: estate company suffered a major defeat in New York's civil
10:37
Speaker 2: fraud suit over his inflated asset valuations. This after a
10:40
Speaker 2: judge barred the former president from running any business in
10:43
Speaker 2: the state for three years and ordered the return of
10:45
Speaker 2: three hundred and sixty four million dollars in illegal profits.
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Speaker 2: That verdict Friday by Justice by Justice Arthur Engron in Manhattan,
10:54
Speaker 2: is a threat to Trump's real estate empire and is
10:56
Speaker 2: the latest legal setback as he campaigns to return to
11:00
Speaker 2: the White House. We should notice two eldest sons, Donald
11:02
Speaker 2: Trump Junior and Eric Trump, were also found liable and
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Speaker 2: barred from being officers of a company in New York
11:07
Speaker 2: for two years. I want to bring back Bloomberg News
11:10
Speaker 2: reporter Greg Ferrell joining us on the phone. Also, we're
11:13
Speaker 2: joined by Bloomberg News legal analyst June Grosso here in
11:15
Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio. Greg, as we take a
11:20
Speaker 2: step back and think about all of the challenges that
11:23
Speaker 2: the former president faces legally, can textualize this one for
11:27
Speaker 2: us and where this sort of falls on the uh,
11:30
Speaker 2: just just how bad this is for him and his empire?
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Speaker 6: Well, it's very bad for his business empire, okay, you know,
11:41
Speaker 6: and it's more serious I think than a lot of
11:44
Speaker 6: us like presumed because criminal is worse than civil, that
11:47
Speaker 6: the real danger to him was all these criminal cases.
11:50
Speaker 6: But this is, you know, turning out to be far
11:52
Speaker 6: more damaging, I think than many of us realized, you know,
11:56
Speaker 6: both financially in terms of the public relations hit, in
11:58
Speaker 6: terms of the exposureusiness practices being laid out in such
12:03
Speaker 6: clear detail. And yes, we all knew about Donald Trump,
12:06
Speaker 6: you know, certainly by the time he became president afterwards,
12:08
Speaker 6: but this is for all the world to see factual
12:11
Speaker 6: findings about the way he operated his business for you know,
12:14
Speaker 6: it was only a decade that came under review by
12:17
Speaker 6: the ags, obvious, but exactly much longer.
12:20
Speaker 2: Greg, we heard your phone ringing. There's a lot going
12:22
Speaker 2: on back there. Yeah, we're gonna I'm gonna let you go,
12:26
Speaker 2: always ringing.
12:27
Speaker 1: Thank you, sources, sources.
12:29
Speaker 2: And not thank you enough for joining us. It's Bloomberg
12:31
Speaker 2: News reporter Greg Farrell joining us on this breaking news
12:33
Speaker 2: this Friday afternoon. Still what with us is Bloomberg News
12:37
Speaker 2: legal analyst June Grosser. We're not letting her go quite yet.
12:39
Speaker 2: We're also going to bring in Bloomberg Politics contributor Geenie Shanzeno,
12:43
Speaker 2: who joins us. Genie, I want to I want to
12:45
Speaker 2: go to you for the politics part of this. Emily
12:46
Speaker 2: asked a great question a few minutes ago about the
12:49
Speaker 2: political effects of this. Does it matter to President Trump
12:54
Speaker 2: supporters that this ruling has come down in the civil
12:57
Speaker 2: fraud trial?
12:58
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think the fair answer is, we really don't
13:01
Speaker 7: know the evidence we have so far is that on
13:05
Speaker 7: all of these indictments and trials, he has been fundraising,
13:09
Speaker 7: and as we all know from looking at the polls,
13:11
Speaker 7: his support has only grown. However, we are now getting
13:15
Speaker 7: I mean, this is all unturned territory politically, but now
13:18
Speaker 7: that we are seeing these verdicts come down, it is
13:22
Speaker 7: possible that this does negatively impact him, even with his
13:26
Speaker 7: core supporters. Because we don't have any test of this
13:30
Speaker 7: kind of thing in American history, we really don't know.
13:33
Speaker 7: We do have some polls which say that if he's
13:35
Speaker 7: convicted of a crime that people will not vote for
13:39
Speaker 7: him for president, we don't know if that extends to something,
13:43
Speaker 7: you know, civil like this. So I don't really have
13:46
Speaker 7: a great answer for you on this except to say
13:50
Speaker 7: I can't imagine a world and I hope I am
13:52
Speaker 7: not being Pollyennish, in which somebody being convicted and indicted
13:58
Speaker 7: this much does have a negative impact on their chances
14:02
Speaker 7: of being elected president. So I think a fair thing
14:06
Speaker 7: to say this is not good news for him in
14:08
Speaker 7: any way, but especially politically, because it's not just this trial,
14:12
Speaker 7: but the cumulative effect of all of these trials, the
14:15
Speaker 7: criminal ones which we know are just starting in a
14:18
Speaker 7: few weeks in New York and then continuing around the
14:21
Speaker 7: country to get the four criminal ones in and of
14:23
Speaker 7: course the civil ones are just the beginning.
14:26
Speaker 1: So I just have to add to this. So he
14:30
Speaker 1: went this week to He's been going to a lot
14:34
Speaker 1: of these different court hearings. As he went when the judge,
14:38
Speaker 1: Judge Mrchahn, said that set the trial date for his
14:41
Speaker 1: New York hush money payment trial for next month. So
14:46
Speaker 1: he went to one in Florida where it was an
14:49
Speaker 1: in camera hearing, so it was just the defense team
14:53
Speaker 1: with the judge Aileen Cannon, and he decided to go
14:56
Speaker 1: and before that he alerted everybody. He said, I'm back
15:00
Speaker 1: in court again. He sent out an context, I'm back
15:03
Speaker 1: in court again. I think he's doing well being back
15:06
Speaker 1: in court. I think he's campaigning the from the courthouse steps.
15:10
Speaker 1: He's convinced his supporters that this is all a witch hunt,
15:16
Speaker 1: that for example, classified documents, Well they didn't they didn't
15:19
Speaker 1: go after Joe Biden for classified documents. Why are they
15:22
Speaker 1: going after me for classified doctors?
15:24
Speaker 3: Special Council's report last week?
15:25
Speaker 1: Yes, but you know, right, But I'm just saying I
15:30
Speaker 1: think that he does very well, because he campaigns from
15:33
Speaker 1: the courthouse and everyone picks up his the stuff that
15:38
Speaker 1: he says, where as if he was on the road
15:41
Speaker 1: at a rally, everyone's not going to pick it up.
15:43
Speaker 1: But when he comes outside the courthouse and says it's
15:46
Speaker 1: very unfair, you know, for example, when he did it
15:49
Speaker 1: this week, when Judge Merschaun set that trial date, he said,
15:52
Speaker 1: this is not fair, this is not justice. So I
15:55
Speaker 1: think he does very well. If there's a criminal verdict,
15:58
Speaker 1: I think it might be different, But a civil verdict,
16:01
Speaker 1: this is really beyond most people. I think, Oh, he
16:05
Speaker 1: lied about how much money he made. I don't think
16:08
Speaker 1: most people see that as something as bad as a
16:12
Speaker 1: criminal conviction, because it's hard to understand. First of all,
16:15
Speaker 1: it's hard to understand it's about business record.
16:17
Speaker 2: Right, and I think perhaps people might I've heard people
16:20
Speaker 2: say the same thing about the covering up the hush
16:22
Speaker 2: money paid to Stormy Daniels, for example, like that, I think,
16:26
Speaker 2: you know, I've heard the comments that some people might
16:28
Speaker 2: find that one frivolous versus the actual criminal charges, because.
16:32
Speaker 1: Also in that case those are normally misdemeanors, and Alvin
16:36
Speaker 1: Bragg didn't want to bring a case with just misdemeanors,
16:39
Speaker 1: so he upped it to felonies by hooking it sort
16:42
Speaker 1: of to federal charges of election against election law. So
16:46
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the problem with that case. It's not
16:49
Speaker 1: just Michael Cohen's going to testify, because you know, the
16:52
Speaker 1: prosecutors are used to having witnesses with problems testifying, But
16:57
Speaker 1: it's because of the legal theory behind it that that's
17:01
Speaker 1: a problem. I think that case.
17:02
Speaker 2: Hey, Jennie, come on in here and weigh in on
17:04
Speaker 2: what June said. The idea that the former president is
17:07
Speaker 2: energized by campaigning in quotes on the stairs of the
17:11
Speaker 2: courthouses versus being out there on the campaign trail.
17:14
Speaker 3: Do you agree with that?
17:16
Speaker 7: You know, I think he knows he needs the money
17:19
Speaker 7: to fund all these cases, and he has been fundraising
17:22
Speaker 7: off of this. But I still go back to the
17:25
Speaker 7: fact that we are in a situation where people are
17:30
Speaker 7: going to have to make a choice if both Joe
17:32
Speaker 7: Biden and Donald Trump are the nominees. Between the two
17:35
Speaker 7: of them, neither of them are beloved, certainly, but the
17:40
Speaker 7: reality is is this race is going to be won
17:43
Speaker 7: or lost in the moderate independent middle and six or
17:47
Speaker 7: seven swing states where the Bloomberg Morning Console poll has
17:51
Speaker 7: been doing their research, and it is really difficult for
17:55
Speaker 7: me to imagine that this is a selling point that
17:59
Speaker 7: will help get Donald Trump more votes than he had
18:02
Speaker 7: in twenty twenty when he lost to Joe Biden. So
18:06
Speaker 7: you know, in the short term, yes, he's going to
18:09
Speaker 7: try to fundraise off of it. He's going to try
18:11
Speaker 7: to make the best of a situation. But by no
18:14
Speaker 7: stretch of the imagination do I believe that this is
18:18
Speaker 7: a you know, a ticket into the presidential nomination or
18:21
Speaker 7: the presidency itself. I mean, this is a man fighting
18:25
Speaker 7: for his life, his businesses, and the future of his
18:28
Speaker 7: children in courts around the country in both civil and
18:33
Speaker 7: criminal cases. And I am hard plasked to believe that
18:36
Speaker 7: the American public in the end views this as a
18:39
Speaker 7: selling point and a jumping off to the presidency. That's
18:42
Speaker 7: why we heard Nikki Haley say today, and she's been
18:45
Speaker 7: screaming from the rooftops that this man brings chaos and
18:50
Speaker 7: people didn't want it in twenty twenty, and I'm hard
18:53
Speaker 7: pressed to believe that they will want it, or more
18:56
Speaker 7: of them will want it in twenty twenty four, which
18:58
Speaker 7: will put him over the top. So does it help
19:00
Speaker 7: his base and potentially you know, get in the nomination.
19:04
Speaker 7: You know, maybe, but let's not forget that the nomination's
19:07
Speaker 7: likely going to be wrapped up even before the trial
19:11
Speaker 7: starts in the Alvin braggcase that you and June were
19:14
Speaker 7: just talking about.
19:15
Speaker 5: What does the Republican Party make of this? What do
19:18
Speaker 5: you think how are they going to come out and
19:20
Speaker 5: react to this news?
19:22
Speaker 7: You know, if history is any guide, they will support
19:25
Speaker 7: Donald Trump. The statement we just heard from his lawyer
19:28
Speaker 7: about a witch hunt will probably be at the top
19:30
Speaker 7: of their lips.
19:32
Speaker 6: You know.
19:32
Speaker 7: The stunning thing is, besides Nicky Haley, very few Republicans
19:37
Speaker 7: in elected office have come out and said anything about
19:41
Speaker 7: this case in particular, except that Donald Trump is being
19:46
Speaker 7: victimized by the New York courts. So I suspect that
19:49
Speaker 7: will happen. And to Tim's point, I think you echo
19:52
Speaker 7: what we all feel is that this is exhausting. Nobody
19:56
Speaker 7: quite can keep track even when you watch it daily,
19:59
Speaker 7: as to what in case we're talking about when, and
20:02
Speaker 7: you know, this is going to have an impact, a
20:05
Speaker 7: cumulative effect on him in the polls, if not in
20:08
Speaker 7: the short term, in the long term because it is
20:11
Speaker 7: utterly chaotic, in Nikki Haley's words, and exhausting for voters.
20:16
Speaker 2: Genie, I have some not so great news for you.
20:18
Speaker 2: November is still many months away at this point. Oh,
20:20
Speaker 2: don't say it, okay, Hey, really appreciate both of you
20:24
Speaker 2: joining us. That, of course is Bloomberg News Legal analyst
20:28
Speaker 2: June Grosso here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Also
20:33
Speaker 2: with us this afternoon, Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie shan Zeno.
20:40
Speaker 2: We have with us right now. One of the reporters
20:42
Speaker 2: who has been covering this trial, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Manhattan
20:46
Speaker 2: Federal Courthouse and Legal Enterprise reporter, joins us here in
20:49
Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Pat, good to see you,
20:52
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in. I know there's a ton of
20:54
Speaker 2: news today. This trial ended a while ago, right, It's
20:59
Speaker 2: been some time that we've been waiting for this decision.
21:01
Speaker 8: Yeah, and we also suffered through thirteen weeks of trial testimony,
21:05
Speaker 8: so it's been very long. It started in October and
21:08
Speaker 8: it went for weeks and weeks and weeks, and they
21:10
Speaker 8: finished with testimony in mid December, and then the judge
21:14
Speaker 8: camp had everyone come back after Christmas holidays for closing arguments.
21:18
Speaker 8: We expected this was going to come out earlier. And
21:21
Speaker 8: then there was a wrinkle in the case where the
21:23
Speaker 8: judge found out that one of the witnesses proffered by
21:26
Speaker 8: Donald Trump, the former Trump Organization financial officer Alan Weiselberg.
21:33
Speaker 8: He understood that their DA was actually considering prosecuting him
21:38
Speaker 8: for perjury.
21:40
Speaker 2: I just want to bring a headline forgive me, you
21:43
Speaker 2: have not seen this yet, but the Trump fraud verdict
21:46
Speaker 2: exceeds four hundred and fifty million dollars with interest, this
21:49
Speaker 2: according to the Attorney General. What's your response to that?
21:52
Speaker 8: Well, I mean, this is a penalty that's really significant
21:56
Speaker 8: for Trump. He's always apparently it's affecting him in the
21:59
Speaker 8: pocketbook where it hurts the most for him. This is
22:01
Speaker 8: a lot of money, and it's a lot of money personally,
22:04
Speaker 8: he's on the hook for more than three hundred and
22:06
Speaker 8: fifty million, as well as his sons are going to
22:09
Speaker 8: have to pay. And well, the ag, the New York
22:12
Speaker 8: Attorney General, had sought a ban from working in New
22:15
Speaker 8: York State for twenty five years for life. For him,
22:18
Speaker 8: it's three years. But the guy you know, three years
22:21
Speaker 8: is three years, so it's all very significant and with
22:24
Speaker 8: accrude penalties in all the extras added up, it's a
22:28
Speaker 8: lot of money.
22:29
Speaker 5: Where does it stand to in the context of other
22:33
Speaker 5: cases and other fines, like can you put this into context?
22:37
Speaker 5: How much money? You know, four hundred and fifty million
22:39
Speaker 5: dollars with interest the other three hundred and sixty four
22:42
Speaker 5: million dollars. How does that compare to other cases throughout history.
22:46
Speaker 8: Well, we just it's a pretty huge rulane for a
22:50
Speaker 8: family company, that is, you know, the guy prides himself
22:53
Speaker 8: as being this great billionaire who's been a successful businessman,
22:57
Speaker 8: who boasted when he was testified that he has four
23:01
Speaker 8: hundred million dollars in cash. Now, I don't know whether
23:03
Speaker 8: that number was in the judge's mind when he when
23:06
Speaker 8: he was trying to factor how much money to penalize Trump.
23:12
Speaker 8: It's obviously significant as well if you think that this
23:15
Speaker 8: comes on the heels. Just a couple of weeks ago,
23:17
Speaker 8: we have the verdict against Donald Trump. He's been ordered
23:20
Speaker 8: by a Manhattan federal jury to pay eighty three point
23:23
Speaker 8: three million in the Egen Carol sexual assault case and
23:27
Speaker 8: defamation case. This is all adding up and it's a
23:30
Speaker 8: and Trump obviously was very concerned about this case because
23:34
Speaker 8: he attended it a lot.
23:36
Speaker 2: Okay, a question that I'm getting over and over again
23:38
Speaker 2: from people who are watching, people who are listening, is
23:41
Speaker 2: they hear about big figures in cases all the time
23:43
Speaker 2: that end up not ultimately being paid because they go
23:46
Speaker 2: on appeal. We just had David Weston on with us,
23:49
Speaker 2: who who said that, well, in New York is unique
23:52
Speaker 2: in the sense that he actually does have to put
23:54
Speaker 2: up this money even if he appeals this. Talk to
23:57
Speaker 2: me about what happens moving forward and when the or
24:00
Speaker 2: a president will actually have to pony up this what
24:03
Speaker 2: more than four hundred million dollars at.
24:04
Speaker 8: This point, Well, what will happen in a process by
24:07
Speaker 8: appeal he'll have to put up He'll have to get
24:10
Speaker 8: a bond. It's almost like a bail bond thing, but
24:12
Speaker 8: it's a bond to basically ensure that the money gets
24:15
Speaker 8: put like in an escrow account, so it'll get paid
24:17
Speaker 8: and it won't get furthered away. But what's interesting, but
24:20
Speaker 8: some of those other verdicts that get reduced is those
24:23
Speaker 8: are damages verdicts. You know, you think a jury says
24:25
Speaker 8: this person's gotten injured by two hundred million dollars in
24:29
Speaker 8: a car accident, and it gets reduced down to maybe
24:32
Speaker 8: thirty million or twenty million. This is different because this
24:35
Speaker 8: is disgorgement. This is penel financial binds. The judges found
24:40
Speaker 8: that he improperly profited. So if you think about it,
24:43
Speaker 8: he sold that Fairy Point golf course in the Bronx
24:47
Speaker 8: made a substantial sum of money, hundreds of millions of
24:49
Speaker 8: dollars in profit, so that was one of the things
24:52
Speaker 8: they cited. He sold the old post office in Washington
24:56
Speaker 8: and made a substantial profit. The ages argue that had
25:00
Speaker 8: he not gotten these great terms and lied about his finances,
25:04
Speaker 8: he would have never gotten these great find lending terms
25:07
Speaker 8: from lenders like Deutsche Bank, and then he would have
25:10
Speaker 8: never been able to buy it, let alone be able
25:12
Speaker 8: to flip it over and make it into a luxury
25:15
Speaker 8: you know, like the hotel industry. And that's what this
25:20
Speaker 8: is different about. It's not like a damage is where
25:22
Speaker 8: a jury verdict gets reduced. This is a judge finding
25:25
Speaker 8: this is improper profits.
25:27
Speaker 5: To what extent is the ruling of victory for New
25:30
Speaker 5: York Attorney General Leticia James.
25:32
Speaker 8: It's a huge victory because I mean having attended the trial,
25:36
Speaker 8: he was very angry with her, and every day he
25:40
Speaker 8: would come out that he attended the trial, he'd have
25:42
Speaker 8: a little mini press conference where he'd denounce her. He
25:45
Speaker 8: would say that she should be looking for migrants and
25:47
Speaker 8: not prosecuting bringing this lawsuit, and there were lots of
25:53
Speaker 8: mean exchanges and there was no love lost. Apparently it
25:58
Speaker 8: is a victory for someone who who says that she
26:00
Speaker 8: wants to hold Trump responsible for what the fraud he
26:05
Speaker 8: did on the lenders and insurers.
26:08
Speaker 2: Okay, pat contextualize this for me, because as of a
26:14
Speaker 2: few weeks ago, the president, the former president, excuse me,
26:17
Speaker 2: faced ninety one felony.
26:18
Speaker 3: Charges in four separate cases.
26:20
Speaker 2: They range from conspiring to defraud the US and his
26:23
Speaker 2: efforts to overturn the twenty twenty election, this one to
26:25
Speaker 2: falsify business records, and then also to cover up hush
26:28
Speaker 2: money paid to an adult film actress. So that's sort
26:31
Speaker 2: of the boiler plate, right, Contextualize this one for us
26:34
Speaker 2: and where that kind of falls in the other legal
26:36
Speaker 2: challenges that he faces.
26:38
Speaker 8: Well, many legal experts I've spoken to is you know,
26:41
Speaker 8: if you think about Donald Trump and who he says,
26:44
Speaker 8: he is his whole foundation of his being and his
26:48
Speaker 8: resume is based as this basically five star New York
26:53
Speaker 8: City developer who brings you these luxury as his son
26:57
Speaker 8: called them, sexy buildings. Do you know Trump Tower and
27:00
Speaker 8: forty Wall Street, these marquee properties that are you know,
27:04
Speaker 8: he is the consummate New York real estate baron. And
27:08
Speaker 8: now he's had this huge, basically take down by the
27:13
Speaker 8: New York Attorney General. But yesterday he's ordered to go
27:16
Speaker 8: to trial in March in five weeks on those thirty
27:19
Speaker 8: four accounts of falsifying business records. And you know, it's
27:24
Speaker 8: not been a particularly good week. And you can think
27:27
Speaker 8: of it that way. Many people who told me it
27:29
Speaker 8: says what Donald Trump really cares about is what's his
27:31
Speaker 8: bank account and what's in his wallet, and this is
27:34
Speaker 8: hitting him in the wallet.
27:36
Speaker 5: We talked a lot about what this means reputationally for
27:39
Speaker 5: Trump in terms of will he be able to, you know,
27:43
Speaker 5: win the election with all of this news. But I'm curious,
27:46
Speaker 5: from your perspective, legally, what does this mean. Is there
27:50
Speaker 5: any sort of ruling that would legally bar him from
27:54
Speaker 5: actually running for president and actually taking office because all
28:00
Speaker 5: of these headlines, they don't seem to actually be like
28:03
Speaker 5: preventing him from running and potentially winning an election and
28:06
Speaker 5: then joining office.
28:08
Speaker 8: One thing you have to remember is as if he
28:11
Speaker 8: gets wins reelection, he could potentially pardon himself and basically
28:16
Speaker 8: dismiss those indictments, the federal indictments, So the three federal cases,
28:22
Speaker 8: the DC federal case, the Washington in Washington.
28:26
Speaker 6: The.
28:27
Speaker 8: Florida case, so he could dismiss those cases. The Manhattan
28:33
Speaker 8: DA's case that was the hush money case. He couldn't
28:36
Speaker 8: do that. So that still affects his freedom and his
28:39
Speaker 8: peril of possibly being convicted. And if he goes to trial,
28:43
Speaker 8: this trial could take about apparently could bring us a
28:47
Speaker 8: verdict in mid May. And if you think about that,
28:50
Speaker 8: and he could get convicted. Some people said to me
28:52
Speaker 8: that he'd be a first time offender. And what a
28:55
Speaker 8: judge sent in hims to prison. It's like one in
28:57
Speaker 8: a third to four years for each count, depending on
29:00
Speaker 8: what the judge hears. And then you know, possibly Georgia,
29:04
Speaker 8: whatever happens in there in the Fulton County Georgia case.
29:06
Speaker 8: But this is one of those cases. He could never
29:08
Speaker 8: pardon himself. Because a state charges, you cannot there's no
29:13
Speaker 8: federal oversight.
29:14
Speaker 2: Pat we have about twenty seconds. What's the next thing
29:17
Speaker 2: that you're watching?
29:18
Speaker 8: Well, and next thing, I'm getting ready for the Trump
29:20
Speaker 8: hush money case. So and we will expect an appeal
29:23
Speaker 8: out of this ruling today.
29:24
Speaker 2: Okay, And what would dollar figures look like for the
29:26
Speaker 2: hush money case.
29:28
Speaker 8: It's not a penalty. It would be he could be
29:30
Speaker 8: convicted and go to prison.
29:32
Speaker 3: And that's a New York state, that's.
29:33
Speaker 8: Inhattan State Supreme Okay, you guys might call it for
29:36
Speaker 8: jury duty.
29:37
Speaker 2: That's a good point. And you were going to be
29:39
Speaker 2: busy too, so we really appreciate your time. That is,
29:44
Speaker 2: of course. Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg, Manhattan Federal Courthouse and Legal
29:47
Speaker 2: Enterprise reporter, joining us here.