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Dan Mendelson on Fixing American Healthcare · Get Real with Jim Weiss

0:00
Speaker 1: Dan Mendelsohn and I built and sold our businesses around
0:02
Speaker 1: the same time with a focus in healthcare, with the
0:06
Speaker 1: idea that we can make that world a healthier place.
0:09
Speaker 1: But then interesting, much like me and other entrepreneurs who
0:13
Speaker 1: wanted new and interesting challenges and opportunities, and now working
0:18
Speaker 1: with J.P. Morgan in the way that how do we
0:22
Speaker 1: fix and address the healthcare system. Having myself been working
0:26
Speaker 1: at the intersection of investment and R & D and
0:31
Speaker 1: public-private partnership through the FNIH and some of the things
0:35
Speaker 1: we are launching in music and medicine and all those
0:39
Speaker 1: cool initiatives that we're doing, I do see where public
0:43
Speaker 1: and private are going to increasingly continue to work together.
0:49
Speaker 1: I think at the end of the day, those of
0:52
Speaker 1: us that still believe, you know, capitalism and democracy and
0:55
Speaker 1: all those things go together, you know, something Dan here
0:59
Speaker 1: is pursuing, I think will be really good for the
1:01
Speaker 1: vast majority of Americans, you know, and make certainly America
1:05
Speaker 1: a healthier place and eventually the world. But you have
1:08
Speaker 1: to make that happen one person at a time. And
1:12
Speaker 1: you do that through really good insurance policies and coverage
1:17
Speaker 1: at places.
1:18
Speaker 2: Where people are working.
1:21
Speaker 3: Here he is, Jim.
1:23
Speaker 1: What's up? Hey, welcome to Get Real, man. Thanks for
1:26
Speaker 1: doing this. I'd like to set a little bit up
1:29
Speaker 1: on the origin story. And I want to go back
1:32
Speaker 1: to your role in the Clinton administration as Associate Director
1:36
Speaker 1: for Health at the Office of Management and Budget. What
1:39
Speaker 1: did you learn about healthcare in America at that time?
1:43
Speaker 1: That set you on your path that maybe has stayed
1:46
Speaker 1: with you all these years later. Maybe it was your
1:49
Speaker 1: mission established. But how was that?
1:52
Speaker 3: It was amazing. It was awesome.
1:53
Speaker 2: How did it come about?
1:54
Speaker 3: I was at a consulting firm called the Lewin Group.
1:58
Speaker 3: And I had... Started there as an associate. And I was,
2:02
Speaker 3: at that time, a senior vice president. And I was
2:05
Speaker 3: kind of looking for the next thing. And I had
2:08
Speaker 3: a relationship. There was a guy named Bob Berenson, who
2:10
Speaker 3: you might know. And he was going into the government.
2:13
Speaker 3: He was like, you should look at this. And I
2:15
Speaker 3: had always wanted to do government work. I mean, I
2:16
Speaker 3: think anyone in healthcare learns a tremendous amount from working
2:20
Speaker 3: in the government because the government is payer, regulator, makes
2:23
Speaker 3: the market in so many areas. And so I went
2:26
Speaker 3: in and interviewed for the job. And At the time, basically,
2:30
Speaker 3: Nancy DeParle had had that job and then she went
2:33
Speaker 3: over to CMS to run CMS. So the job was vacant.
2:37
Speaker 3: And it was after 1997 Budget Act. And a lot
2:40
Speaker 3: of the more liberal Democrats were running in the other direction.
2:44
Speaker 3: Robert Reich left the administration. And so they were running
2:47
Speaker 3: in the other direction because the president signed the welfare
2:50
Speaker 3: bill and then the Balanced Budget Act was coming up.
2:52
Speaker 3: And it was very centrist policy. And so they needed
2:55
Speaker 3: a Democrat who was a true centrist, who was relatively
3:00
Speaker 3: unidentified politically because there was a Republican House and Senate.
3:03
Speaker 3: And so I raised my hand. I went in. I
3:05
Speaker 3: interviewed aggressively. I got the job. And Larry Lewin came
3:09
Speaker 3: to me and he was like, Dan, this is going
3:11
Speaker 3: to be the biggest mistake of your life.
3:13
Speaker 2: I love when guys say that. I've certainly heard that.
3:16
Speaker 3: Larry, I mean, I loved him. He was a great,
3:18
Speaker 3: great human being.
3:19
Speaker 2: Anyway, it didn't scare you. You went in, you did it.
3:21
Speaker 2: What was it like?
3:22
Speaker 3: It is very important, I think, for anyone in healthcare
3:25
Speaker 3: to spend time working in and around government because you
3:29
Speaker 3: really start to understand how it works. So you get
3:32
Speaker 3: the level of commitment of the career staff very, very
3:35
Speaker 3: high and the work they do for not a lot
3:38
Speaker 3: of compensation. And it's unbelievable. And then just the influence
3:42
Speaker 3: of the government and how much control the government exerts
3:45
Speaker 3: over really all aspects of health care. make markets and
3:49
Speaker 3: kill markets. And the other thing is how much good
3:52
Speaker 3: you can do from government. I mean, we passed the
3:55
Speaker 3: Balanced Budget Act. We had the Children's Health Insurance Program.
3:58
Speaker 3: During that time, we insured about 10 million children, low-income children.
4:02
Speaker 3: And that was a lot of people who didn't have insurance,
4:04
Speaker 3: a lot of kids who didn't have insurance who... who
4:07
Speaker 3: then had insurance. And I'm really proud of that. And
4:10
Speaker 3: I worked with a lot of people in that context
4:14
Speaker 3: with Chris Jennings and Chipper Gore was really active during
4:17
Speaker 3: that time. And the first lady, Hillary Clinton, was really
4:20
Speaker 3: active during that time. And we would go out and
4:22
Speaker 3: we were effectively strong arming governors into accepting this framework
4:29
Speaker 3: because they had to embrace it in order for it
4:31
Speaker 3: to happen. It's a state run program. And we ended
4:34
Speaker 3: up getting all 50 states to cover their kids. And
4:38
Speaker 3: that was a huge victory. That was 10 million people
4:40
Speaker 3: more who had insurance. And I think that it was
4:42
Speaker 3: like it was one of the defining things. But then
4:44
Speaker 3: we also did other we doubled the size of the NIH,
4:46
Speaker 3: which I think is really a crown jewel of American innovation.
4:49
Speaker 3: And there was a lot of other stuff that happened
4:52
Speaker 3: during that period of time that I'm proud of.
4:54
Speaker 2: Right.
4:54
Speaker 1: And now what do you think about what's happening? I mean,
4:57
Speaker 1: is it keeping you up at night?
4:58
Speaker 3: No, look, I think that there is good and bad
5:01
Speaker 3: in any administration. And from the seat that I'm sitting
5:05
Speaker 3: in right now, we are looking for ways to engage
5:08
Speaker 3: positively at the administration and we're finding them. I mean,
5:11
Speaker 3: Abe Sutton over at CMMI is a really thoughtful guy
5:13
Speaker 3: and he's doing some very important, innovative stuff. Chris Klopp
5:16
Speaker 3: is a good person to work with. They're very focused
5:18
Speaker 3: on digital. Dan Brillman is very strong on digital. And
5:23
Speaker 3: if he's able to kind of automate Medicaid or automate
5:27
Speaker 3: the claims processing aspect of Medicaid, he could do a
5:30
Speaker 3: lot of good. So just look for the good. And
5:33
Speaker 3: that's always been my philosophy. I mean, I can always
5:36
Speaker 3: find things to complain about that. that keep me up
5:39
Speaker 3: at night, measles, erosion of coverage. Those are things that
5:43
Speaker 3: keep me up at night for sure. But I'm going
5:45
Speaker 3: to look for the ways to engage positively and find
5:48
Speaker 3: them and go try to improve matters.
5:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, as I talk about agonize or organize, and I
5:53
Speaker 1: guess you just got to keep organizing until you stop agonizing.
5:56
Speaker 1: So you left the White House and you started Avalere.
6:00
Speaker 1: What did you learn from the outside building that business
6:03
Speaker 1: that you didn't get in the government? I mean, I
6:05
Speaker 1: guess you had been working at a somewhat similar kind
6:08
Speaker 1: of consultancy before.
6:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
6:11
Speaker 1: And that got you going. But A, why'd you leave?
6:14
Speaker 1: Or is there just always a time stamp on? the
6:17
Speaker 1: government jobs. And then B, what did you learn?
6:21
Speaker 3: Yeah. All right. So why I left, the term was
6:24
Speaker 3: close to over. In the get real vein, we basically
6:28
Speaker 3: ran out of money. And one day my wife was
6:30
Speaker 3: at the grocery store and she called and there was
6:33
Speaker 3: no money in our bank account. And she was like, Danny,
6:35
Speaker 3: I just want to know, like, can I buy salmon?
6:38
Speaker 3: Or should we go with like the beans and rice option?
6:40
Speaker 3: And I actually, I hadn't transferred money over into the
6:44
Speaker 3: other account, you know, it's like one of those things
6:46
Speaker 3: where we were slowly depleting our savings. But I It's
6:49
Speaker 3: a little bit of a wake up call. And then
6:50
Speaker 3: the term ended, of course. So I left a little
6:52
Speaker 3: bit before the end of the term because it was time.
6:55
Speaker 3: And I felt like I had accomplished a lot. So, look,
6:57
Speaker 3: I was very fortunate to be in a situation where
7:00
Speaker 3: I could start a company and I bootstrapped it like
7:02
Speaker 3: me and my home equity line. And I wanted to
7:05
Speaker 3: be in a place where we were doing objective analytic work.
7:08
Speaker 3: I did not want to lobby because I didn't think
7:09
Speaker 3: that was ethical. coming out of the government and lobbying,
7:11
Speaker 3: but I wanted to be close to kind of government
7:13
Speaker 3: policy and regulation. And so it was really a matter
7:16
Speaker 3: of like establishing a mission for the organization and engaging.
7:19
Speaker 3: The first business plan was really around health information technology,
7:23
Speaker 3: and this was in 2000. We had a lot of
7:25
Speaker 3: trouble finding customers at that time who wanted to dig
7:28
Speaker 3: into that. And so we ended up kind of receding
7:30
Speaker 3: back and focusing a bit more broadly on government strategy
7:34
Speaker 3: and regulation. And that was kind of the core of
7:36
Speaker 3: the business. Later, after a number of years, and I
7:39
Speaker 3: had brought in some private equity money, I sold a
7:41
Speaker 3: minority share of the business to a private equity firm
7:44
Speaker 3: in 2008. and use the proceeds to develop out a
7:47
Speaker 3: whole digital infrastructure. And then we started accumulating a lot
7:51
Speaker 3: of data and doing a lot of care analytic work
7:53
Speaker 3: for our customers. And that was really fun.
7:54
Speaker 2: Who was the PE then? I forget, but I knew it.
7:57
Speaker 3: EDS Capital out of Baltimore. Great firm, very principled. We
8:01
Speaker 3: had a great relationship. We built out a board of directors,
8:05
Speaker 3: increased the financial acumen of the business. They really helped
8:07
Speaker 3: me to think.
8:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always thought that too.
8:09
Speaker 1: You know, I felt like that structure of the board
8:13
Speaker 1: and all the governance really did help. I think I
8:16
Speaker 1: bootstrapped mine in the first 10 years, but then to scale,
8:20
Speaker 1: you really got to go with a partner.
8:22
Speaker 3: In my current role, we focus on employer-sponsored insurance, and
8:27
Speaker 3: we explicitly stay out of anything related to Medicare or Medicaid,
8:31
Speaker 3: except if there are innovations in that part of the
8:34
Speaker 3: world that we want to bring over into employer-sponsored insurance.
8:38
Speaker 3: We can talk about that more later. But look, the
8:40
Speaker 3: public programs, it's complex because you have members of Congress
8:44
Speaker 3: pass laws that create these programs. The 340B is a
8:48
Speaker 3: great example because it was originally crafted as a low-income
8:53
Speaker 3: assistance program, but it really became effectively a money shoot program.
8:58
Speaker 3: that went from the pharmaceutical industry to America's hospitals. And
9:03
Speaker 3: that's what it is. It's just not really a low-income program.
9:08
Speaker 3: And then in that world, to reverse it, you're taking
9:12
Speaker 3: money away from a very strong interest, the hospitals, and
9:15
Speaker 3: giving it to the pharmaceutical industry. Is that what you
9:18
Speaker 3: want to do? And I don't think there are a
9:19
Speaker 3: lot of members who want to do that. So they
9:21
Speaker 3: just keep growing it. And so I would say the
9:23
Speaker 3: design of these healthcare programs, I think, is very political
9:26
Speaker 3: and gets involved in kind of a lot of political aspects.
9:29
Speaker 3: Medicare worries me because of the solvency issues, that we
9:34
Speaker 3: have a system that is just consuming a lot more
9:37
Speaker 3: money than it was ever intended and a lot of
9:39
Speaker 3: needs on the part of seniors. So that's something that
9:41
Speaker 3: really needs to be squared.
9:42
Speaker 1: How do we fix that? Do GLP-1s fix everything?
9:46
Speaker 2: They don't, right?
9:47
Speaker 3: If you look at America's employers and what's happening there,
9:50
Speaker 3: fully 4% of our benefit spend is going to go
9:54
Speaker 3: for GLP-1s in 2026. That's a lot of money. And
9:58
Speaker 3: it's possible that that might save money downstream, but in
10:03
Speaker 3: the short term, it's definitely a major cost driver.
10:05
Speaker 1: Now you're CEO of Morgan Health and you lead an
10:07
Speaker 1: investment unit there, part of JPMorgan Chase, and invest from
10:11
Speaker 1: the balance sheet, which is, I guess, somewhat unique, right?
10:15
Speaker 1: What does that mean day to day? And what does
10:18
Speaker 1: that let you do that maybe other investors can't?
10:21
Speaker 3: To answer the first question of why I sold the business,
10:24
Speaker 3: it's because I was ready to do something different. I
10:27
Speaker 3: don't think that any entrepreneur who's been in a business
10:30
Speaker 3: for that long, you start to see the same things
10:33
Speaker 3: over and over again. You know this, Jim. And so
10:36
Speaker 3: I was ready to do something different.
10:38
Speaker 1: Now, that's why I wanted to have us hang out
10:40
Speaker 1: and talk about it, because I think we have similar headsets.
10:43
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:44
Speaker 3: And then after I left, I took a beat and
10:47
Speaker 3: started investing and started caucusing with Sandbox Holdings, which is
10:51
Speaker 3: a great investment group, and Welsh Carson. And I enjoyed
10:55
Speaker 3: working with them as well. And I was caucusing with them.
10:58
Speaker 3: I missed the mission. I missed the mission. I missed
11:01
Speaker 3: having a really strong mission to focus on improving healthcare
11:06
Speaker 3: in the United States. And then I also missed having
11:09
Speaker 3: an A-rated team and a group of athletes who I
11:12
Speaker 3: could coach and mentor. And those are really the two
11:15
Speaker 3: things that I miss the most. And so, you know,
11:17
Speaker 3: I started interviewing for CEO jobs and I started thinking
11:20
Speaker 3: about starting my own thing. And then I got this
11:22
Speaker 3: call from the bank. And it was just fascinating because
11:24
Speaker 3: it was so different. And it was in the wake
11:27
Speaker 3: of the failure of Haven. Remember the joint venture of Amazon, Berkshire,
11:31
Speaker 3: and JPMorgan Chase?
11:32
Speaker 1: I was going to ask about it, yeah. Because, I mean,
11:34
Speaker 1: they've been trying this mission. It's not for lack of trying, right?
11:37
Speaker 3: Exactly. And the way that Jamie Dimon put it in
11:39
Speaker 3: the first conversation that I had with him was, he
11:43
Speaker 3: was like, look, We failed with Haven, but all the
11:47
Speaker 3: problems of the healthcare system remain.
11:48
Speaker 2: Remain, yeah.
11:50
Speaker 3: So you think you could come in and help us
11:52
Speaker 3: address some of these issues and try to fix it.
11:54
Speaker 3: And that was really kind of the starting point of
11:57
Speaker 3: the discussion. So I agreed to come in, do a
11:59
Speaker 3: strategic plan, Started meeting some of the best people that
12:02
Speaker 3: I've ever worked with in my career here. Peter Scherer,
12:05
Speaker 3: Jen Pipsack, the operating officer of the company. You start
12:07
Speaker 3: to meet these people and they're all exceedingly bright and
12:10
Speaker 3: very mission oriented and really want to kind of deploy
12:13
Speaker 3: the resources of the bank to help America. That is
12:16
Speaker 3: the motivation. And so in that context, the question is like, okay, Dan,
12:21
Speaker 3: like what can you and your team do? And that
12:23
Speaker 3: becomes the challenge.
12:25
Speaker 2: What is that? How are you meeting the challenge? Yeah.
12:28
Speaker 3: So the way to think about it is, so our
12:30
Speaker 3: mission is, is to drive innovation in employer-sponsored healthcare, improve quality,
12:35
Speaker 3: improve affordability, and improve health equity. And the way that
12:39
Speaker 3: we're doing that is we're an investor. So we're a
12:42
Speaker 3: business unit within JPMorgan Chase. So it's set up to
12:45
Speaker 3: be a self-sustaining enterprise within the bank. And we find
12:50
Speaker 3: promising companies healthcare companies that can improve employer-sponsored healthcare. We
12:55
Speaker 3: invest in them off the balance sheet. So we've deployed
12:57
Speaker 3: about $ 260 million of bank balance sheet capital so far.
13:01
Speaker 3: We're approved for another $ 250 million or so, so we
13:04
Speaker 3: can kind of keep it up. And we have great companies.
13:07
Speaker 3: They improve primary care. They improve cancer care. They bring
13:11
Speaker 3: digital capabilities to employers who want to better understand data.
13:15
Speaker 3: Sound familiar to what we were talking about before? We
13:17
Speaker 3: invest in companies that can really make a meaningful difference,
13:20
Speaker 3: and we help them grow. Then we have a group
13:23
Speaker 3: that focuses on really what we call innovation, which is
13:27
Speaker 3: to help our portfolio companies really do value-based care and
13:32
Speaker 3: better primary care and all of those things. And so
13:35
Speaker 3: it's a way to kind of engage and bring those
13:37
Speaker 3: lessons into the healthcare system. And we also have a
13:39
Speaker 3: really outstanding data and analytics capability that we built here
13:44
Speaker 3: so that we have better visibility into everything that's going
13:48
Speaker 3: on over here. as well as a frame of reference
13:51
Speaker 3: that we can use to benchmark relative to the market
13:54
Speaker 3: as a whole. And then finally, we have a communications
13:57
Speaker 3: group that helps us to communicate these lessons out into
14:00
Speaker 3: the market. That's a very important group and a policy
14:03
Speaker 3: group that helps connect us with government officials, that we
14:07
Speaker 3: work with to drive some of the change that we
14:10
Speaker 3: can't as one company do ourselves.
14:13
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're making progress. And since you mentioned data,
14:16
Speaker 1: everyone's talking about AI and data and that healthcare is
14:19
Speaker 1: the ultimate use case for AI transformation. How focused are
14:24
Speaker 1: you investing in companies using data to optimize healthcare?
14:28
Speaker 2: It sounds like you are.
14:29
Speaker 1: And how are you using data internally to to discover
14:33
Speaker 1: companies that add to the portfolio.
14:36
Speaker 2: Any specifics?
14:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Look, JPMorgan Chase is very focused on this.
14:41
Speaker 3: And so we benefit from a lot of mindshare here.
14:44
Speaker 3: Our portfolio companies are using data analytics and AI to
14:48
Speaker 3: drive system-wide improvements in a number of different areas. So
14:51
Speaker 3: for example, time care and oncology, what they do is
14:54
Speaker 3: help individuals who've been diagnosed with cancer find better care
14:57
Speaker 3: and more cost-effective care using digital analytics. And they're highly effective.
15:02
Speaker 3: They save money, they improve quality of care. And a
15:05
Speaker 3: lot of times it's like, Someone's been diagnosed with cancer
15:09
Speaker 3: in a major medical center, but if they just go
15:12
Speaker 3: down the road to a community oncology group, they can
15:16
Speaker 3: actually get better care and more cost-effective care for the
15:21
Speaker 3: routine oncology. And it's a lot closer to their house,
15:23
Speaker 3: so they benefit from that as well. So that's one example.
15:26
Speaker 3: Devoted is another nice example. So we invested in Devoted Health,
15:31
Speaker 3: which is a Medicare Advantage health plan that's built on
15:34
Speaker 3: a very sophisticated AI-based platform. And that's a place where
15:38
Speaker 3: it's completely digital-based, AI-based, very efficient from an administrative standpoint.
15:44
Speaker 3: But they're also using AI to create better care pathways
15:47
Speaker 3: for the patients who trust them with their care. So
15:49
Speaker 3: that's another nice example. And then we also have other examples. So, like,
15:53
Speaker 3: for example, we have a great portfolio company called Involve
15:56
Speaker 3: that we sold recently to Quantum. It's now an owned
15:59
Speaker 3: asset of Quantum. So we're now shareholders in Quantum. And
16:03
Speaker 3: what this company does is create value-based benefit designs using
16:07
Speaker 3: data and AI where they can help direct employees to
16:12
Speaker 3: higher value care. So it's better quality, lower cost. And
16:16
Speaker 3: if you know who the high quality, low cost providers are,
16:21
Speaker 3: And maybe you have a financial incentive to go to
16:24
Speaker 3: that provider versus someone else, and everybody wins. You win,
16:27
Speaker 3: and the plan wins, and that's the way that's done.
16:30
Speaker 3: But look, AI has applications all over the place. And
16:33
Speaker 3: I would say that the downsides need to be managed
16:37
Speaker 3: for sure. And it's not a panacea. And at the
16:40
Speaker 3: same time, if we deploy it correctly, I do think
16:43
Speaker 3: that better leverage of technology really is one of the
16:46
Speaker 3: only things that promises cost reduction and quality improvement simultaneously.
16:54
Speaker 1: I talk about the consumerization of healthcare. patients getting more agency.
16:59
Speaker 1: I guess the big question is why the focus on employer-sponsored?
17:03
Speaker 1: Is that where you think you can make the biggest impact?
17:05
Speaker 1: I would assume, but you tell me.
17:07
Speaker 3: You know, Jim, so much of the discussion is around
17:11
Speaker 3: Medicare and Medicaid. Frankly, I think that employer-sponsored has really
17:15
Speaker 3: been neglected. Half of Americans get their care through their employer.
17:20
Speaker 3: And if you look at how much value-based care is
17:22
Speaker 3: done in the employer world versus Medicare and Medicaid, it's
17:25
Speaker 3: so much less. And it's a system that is really
17:28
Speaker 3: in need of better product. And, you know, also from
17:30
Speaker 3: running a business and I ran my own business for
17:32
Speaker 3: so long, you just want to run your business and
17:35
Speaker 3: you want to be able to buy a very high
17:38
Speaker 3: quality product. You don't want to spend all your time
17:40
Speaker 3: engineering around the benefit. And every year your costs go up.
17:45
Speaker 3: Your employees are dissatisfied with the health care that you're
17:48
Speaker 3: providing them and it gets more and more expensive. It's
17:50
Speaker 3: highly frustrating. And so like this environment, the bank, JP
17:55
Speaker 3: Morgan Chase, we serve 7 million small businesses in the
17:58
Speaker 3: United States. Obviously, they're interested in the financial aspect because
18:02
Speaker 3: they're banking with the JP Morgan Chase. But they're also
18:06
Speaker 3: coming to us, coming to the bank and saying, help
18:08
Speaker 3: me with my cost structure. Look what's happening in health care.
18:11
Speaker 3: My premiums just went up by 25 percent. It's completely untenable.
18:15
Speaker 1: No, it is the biggest expense outside of real estate.
18:18
Speaker 1: Nobody does that anymore.
18:20
Speaker 3: You've got all sorts of members of Congress and administration
18:22
Speaker 3: focusing on Medicare and Medicaid. The business community needs to
18:26
Speaker 3: tackle employer-sponsored insurance. And we need to tackle it as
18:30
Speaker 3: a matter of American competitiveness in addition to all the
18:33
Speaker 3: good reasons that we're talking about before, providing people with
18:37
Speaker 3: better health care.
18:37
Speaker 2: I'm with you there.
18:38
Speaker 1: And I think maybe guys like us who've had to
18:41
Speaker 1: go buy these products and they haven't been satisfying, you know,
18:44
Speaker 1: perfect people to help.
18:46
Speaker 2: Find the new things.
18:47
Speaker 1: I'm now advising a company called Private Health Management, PHM.
18:52
Speaker 1: You know, they were the guys that helped me navigate
18:55
Speaker 1: my wife's cancer. One of the big areas, and I
18:58
Speaker 1: wanted to press a little bit more on time care
19:01
Speaker 1: because I don't know if that's an exact competitor. Maybe
19:04
Speaker 1: that's complimentary in some ways. It sounds like it is.
19:07
Speaker 1: I talked to Patrick Dempsey. I just did a recording
19:10
Speaker 1: with him about the Dempsey Center and his nonprofit focused
19:14
Speaker 1: on really what they call wraparound care. So it's not
19:18
Speaker 1: just the drug itself, but all these other ancillary, is
19:22
Speaker 1: it acupuncture, things that aren't typically covered, but that create
19:26
Speaker 1: a better patient experience. Why has this type of patient
19:30
Speaker 1: support not been considered essential in the game plan? Like
19:34
Speaker 1: I watched it with my wife, like her quality of
19:37
Speaker 1: how Even the chemo, I think, probably worked better because
19:41
Speaker 1: that's all they really had for her type of cancer.
19:43
Speaker 1: But you can tell that if you can do acupuncture
19:47
Speaker 1: and you can have a better diet, obviously for immunotherapy.
19:50
Speaker 1: it's absolutely essential that you're eating a certain way. To
19:54
Speaker 1: get the max benefit, we know that clinically and from data.
19:58
Speaker 1: Why are those things still considered, I don't know, luxuries
20:02
Speaker 1: or not the right way to go?
20:04
Speaker 3: Look, I think first, like, time care is a fantastic
20:07
Speaker 3: new entry into this space. And, you know, they have
20:10
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands of people relying on them for care
20:13
Speaker 3: at this point. And they collect data and they use
20:16
Speaker 3: those data to derive insights that drive better care. And
20:21
Speaker 3: it's a very data-oriented organization. It's also a lot of
20:24
Speaker 3: oncologists and oncology nurses. And the people who communicate with
20:29
Speaker 3: the patients are clinicians, and they really understand human and care,
20:34
Speaker 3: and that's why their NPS is so high. But in addition,
20:38
Speaker 3: there have been health plans that have run randomized controlled
20:40
Speaker 3: trials using time care and shown dramatic cost savings on
20:47
Speaker 3: their books of business. And that's why it's spreading so rapidly.
20:50
Speaker 3: And I think inherent in both the structure of the
20:53
Speaker 3: company as well as why it's growing so much are
20:56
Speaker 3: the answers to your questions, which is that employers like
20:59
Speaker 3: look at this and they don't want cost additive solutions.
21:02
Speaker 3: They're looking to save money. And so in the end,
21:06
Speaker 3: we look for products that both improve care and save
21:09
Speaker 3: money because we know that those are going to be
21:11
Speaker 3: the ones that will scale better. There are a lot
21:13
Speaker 3: of other companies that do improve care, but if they
21:17
Speaker 3: don't save money, they're not going to scale. Like I
21:20
Speaker 3: go to a wonderful concierge doctor and I pay for that.
21:25
Speaker 3: And we would never invest in a concierge medicine out
21:29
Speaker 3: of Morgan Health because it's not going to help the
21:31
Speaker 3: vast majority of Americans. And so what we're really trying
21:35
Speaker 3: to do is find the solutions not for our favorite
21:38
Speaker 3: highly compensated investment bankers, but for the call center operators
21:43
Speaker 3: and for the data center people and for the loan
21:46
Speaker 3: processing people and for the Amazon warehousing people. Those are
21:52
Speaker 3: the target audience of Morgan Health. not the concierge folks
21:56
Speaker 3: who can pay it a little bit more and just
21:58
Speaker 3: get better care.
21:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that a real criteria is you got
22:01
Speaker 1: to both have to be true, right? Improve care and
22:04
Speaker 1: also save money. What are some of the things that
22:07
Speaker 1: are doing that? What's the data telling us? Is it
22:10
Speaker 1: Early detection, is it molecular medicine along the way? What
22:14
Speaker 1: are some of the things?
22:15
Speaker 3: Better primary care when combined with care navigation, avoidance of
22:21
Speaker 3: ER usage, and avoidance of urgent care. That's one example.
22:24
Speaker 3: The value-based benefit designs that we talked about before, I believe,
22:28
Speaker 3: can improve quality and save money. So when... When consumers
22:32
Speaker 3: are educated and then incented to use lower cost, higher
22:36
Speaker 3: quality care, magic happens there. The time care, which I
22:40
Speaker 3: mentioned before, leveraging digital analytics to drive patient care improvement
22:45
Speaker 3: using care navigation. So that's another example. So those are
22:48
Speaker 3: some of the things. that we know work. We also
22:51
Speaker 3: have some very interesting assets that are kind of more
22:55
Speaker 3: along the lines of narrow network. And so one example
22:59
Speaker 3: is a narrow network plan that we are deploying called Centivo.
23:02
Speaker 3: And what Centivo does is they go in and they
23:04
Speaker 3: negotiate a preferred rate with one health system in a geography.
23:09
Speaker 3: And so we offer this to our employees in Dallas.
23:11
Speaker 3: It's Baylor. And if you're ready to accept Baylor as
23:14
Speaker 3: a network, you can save 10, 15% on cost. And
23:18
Speaker 3: so the idea is if you accept a narrow network,
23:23
Speaker 3: you can save money. It's kind of like a Kaiser-like option.
23:26
Speaker 2: It's Kaiser, yeah.
23:26
Speaker 1: I've offered that. Yeah, that was definitely one of the ways.
23:29
Speaker 1: And for a lot of people, that works well. That's
23:31
Speaker 1: a real access solution.
23:33
Speaker 3: That's right. And especially as costs grow, you have more
23:37
Speaker 3: and more employers opting for that because that's the way
23:40
Speaker 3: that they'll be able to keep coverage.
23:42
Speaker 1: What do we keep getting wrong as the costs go up?
23:45
Speaker 1: This seems like the never-ending story, right?
23:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.
23:48
Speaker 2: Will it ever have a happy ending?
23:50
Speaker 1: Like, are there one or two or three things that
23:53
Speaker 1: it's like, come on, guys, this is what it is,
23:56
Speaker 1: you know?
23:56
Speaker 3: Healthcare costs rise because of better technology. GLP-1 is a
24:01
Speaker 3: great example of that. And they go up because of
24:03
Speaker 3: labor costs. And those are really the two primary drivers.
24:07
Speaker 3: There's a lot of other things, of course, like when
24:09
Speaker 3: hospitals merge and they raise their prices, that raises costs too.
24:13
Speaker 3: But I would say that it's technology and labor that
24:15
Speaker 3: are the primary drivers. And So a lot of the
24:18
Speaker 3: solutions that we're looking for are those that deploy technology
24:22
Speaker 3: to actually reduce costs. And that's kind of an important thing,
24:26
Speaker 3: I think, to generate. And then kind of more efficient
24:28
Speaker 3: use of labor. So like, why not use community health
24:32
Speaker 3: workers instead of physicians for some kinds of things? If
24:36
Speaker 3: it's a matter of like improving access so that all
24:39
Speaker 3: providers can operate at the top of their licenses. So
24:42
Speaker 3: that's kind of another set of solutions. But look, Jim,
24:46
Speaker 3: we're never going to solve this. All we can do
24:49
Speaker 3: is mitigate. And that, to me, is the important thing.
24:53
Speaker 3: And so if we can really be on top of
24:55
Speaker 3: our game and do everything we can to mitigate the
24:58
Speaker 3: increases in costs, I think we're helping.
25:00
Speaker 1: There's a whole half of the population that are smarter
25:03
Speaker 1: than us, women.
25:05
Speaker 2: And there's absolutely.
25:08
Speaker 1: a movement finally after a long period of time to
25:11
Speaker 1: address health issues in that population, Mitty, and I just
25:16
Speaker 1: had Mary Claire Haver from The Pause Life come on.
25:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
25:20
Speaker 1: And more and more changes in the hormone regulation. And
25:25
Speaker 1: now you're seeing, again, GLP-1s. Now it's the next level
25:29
Speaker 1: of peptide. The point is you almost see an industry
25:33
Speaker 1: evolving toward prevention, right? I used to have when we
25:37
Speaker 1: would go to all the big health conferences, Health Innovation Summit,
25:40
Speaker 1: all the places we'd see you. is that the problem
25:44
Speaker 1: was often related to we're too focused on the treatment
25:48
Speaker 1: side of it and not focused enough on the prevention.
25:51
Speaker 1: So where are you guys getting involved on that front investment-wise?
25:56
Speaker 3: Women's health is critically important, largely has been neglected. It
26:01
Speaker 3: has been a topic area for us for a long time.
26:03
Speaker 3: We made an investment recently. In one company, we started
26:06
Speaker 3: in fertility with really a goal of being a comprehensive
26:11
Speaker 3: women's health platform. That has not come to fruition quite
26:14
Speaker 3: in the way that we had envisioned it. And so
26:17
Speaker 3: we're kind of like going back and figuring out where
26:19
Speaker 3: we can play in that area. And we're very interested
26:22
Speaker 3: in making investments in that space as well as deploying it.
26:25
Speaker 3: I'd say that there are different aspects to women's health.
26:27
Speaker 3: It's not just one thing.
26:28
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
26:29
Speaker 3: Prefertility, there's fertility, there's perimenopause, menopause. and the like. And
26:34
Speaker 3: we've talked with a range of different companies and providers.
26:37
Speaker 3: And look, there's some companies that are doing really good work.
26:39
Speaker 3: I really like what Maven is doing, for example, and
26:42
Speaker 3: they're engaged in a lot of different aspects of this.
26:44
Speaker 3: And you mentioned there are other companies. We've looked at
26:46
Speaker 3: probably two dozen companies that have been engaged in this area,
26:50
Speaker 3: and we want to help them out. That's something that
26:52
Speaker 3: we're very focused on. But I also have not found
26:56
Speaker 3: the one thing that's going to fix that area. And
26:59
Speaker 3: so it's an active work stream for our team. And
27:02
Speaker 3: I'm not going to pretend that we have the easy answers.
27:04
Speaker 3: If anyone's listening to this, seriously, like we are all
27:07
Speaker 3: ears on women's health.
27:08
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I'm bringing it up because we do
27:10
Speaker 1: see those businesses and companies again.
27:12
Speaker 2: Mary Claire Haver is one of them.
27:14
Speaker 1: But when I talked to her, she was saying it's
27:17
Speaker 1: like anything, the long neglected area, right? Unmet need got
27:22
Speaker 1: met with her. So that's why she has 7 million followers.
27:25
Speaker 1: I mean, it's because we don't have good solutions that
27:28
Speaker 1: are repeatable in these problems. But I watched it with
27:31
Speaker 1: my own wife. Doctors didn't believe that these symptoms she
27:35
Speaker 1: was having were cancer. If we're in a 55 or
27:38
Speaker 1: 56 year old woman, once I think you give them
27:42
Speaker 1: agency to detect it early, which is number one, now
27:45
Speaker 1: my sister's getting a lump back to me next week
27:48
Speaker 1: or in two weeks. And That's because she went for
27:52
Speaker 1: early detection and God knows what that saves down the
27:56
Speaker 1: road and further treatment. And at the end of the day,
27:59
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of things that, and that's
28:03
Speaker 1: what I want this podcast to do is attract through
28:05
Speaker 1: my audience, people to come talk to you who really
28:09
Speaker 1: could benefit from the investment. But I do think there's
28:12
Speaker 1: lots of great people out there working on this issue
28:15
Speaker 1: and And that, look, healthy moms and women make for
28:19
Speaker 1: a much healthier society in the experience.
28:22
Speaker 3: I agree, Jim. But I think also, so like some
28:24
Speaker 3: of the things that we're doing internally, we have this
28:27
Speaker 3: wonderful program that's operating in Columbus, Ohio, where we brought
28:32
Speaker 3: an advanced primary care clinic into a very large facility
28:35
Speaker 3: in Columbus that we run. And you can go into
28:38
Speaker 3: that facility and get urgent care, primary care, mental health evaluation.
28:42
Speaker 3: And we actively promote early detection, And we bring a
28:47
Speaker 3: mammography truck to the kind of park in front of
28:50
Speaker 3: the facility. So you have to walk right by it
28:52
Speaker 3: to make it super convenient for our employees to be
28:55
Speaker 3: able to access that. And that's the kind of thing
28:57
Speaker 3: that I think is important. I think that one of
28:59
Speaker 3: the issues, though, kind of fundamentally is. is that the
29:03
Speaker 3: reimbursement systems, the payment systems, are not calibrated to incent
29:08
Speaker 3: strong women's health care. And that's not something that any
29:11
Speaker 3: one company can fix. So it's a place for policy
29:14
Speaker 3: engagement and policy intervention. And one of the reasons why
29:18
Speaker 3: you don't see compelling business models in a lot of
29:20
Speaker 3: these companies is because the reimbursement isn't as good. And
29:25
Speaker 3: that's something that lawmakers can definitely do something about.
29:28
Speaker 2: Great. All right.
29:28
Speaker 1: Well, let's make sure our lawmakers are hearing you on that.
29:32
Speaker 1: And then what about therapeutics? that you've got at companies
29:35
Speaker 1: at Aerodyne?
29:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
29:37
Speaker 1: Focused on cell and gene therapy. How does that fit
29:40
Speaker 1: into this whole thing?
29:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. Philosophy.
29:43
Speaker 3: Great. I'm so glad you asked. So like I mentioned before,
29:46
Speaker 3: we bank and serve about 7 million small businesses in
29:49
Speaker 3: the United States. And we have watched a steady deterioration
29:53
Speaker 3: in the quality of that coverage. So much so to
29:55
Speaker 3: the point that a lot of the small group coverage
29:58
Speaker 3: does not even cover cell and gene therapy. So like imagine,
30:02
Speaker 3: and I'm sure you've had this experience, Jim, when you're
30:04
Speaker 3: running your own business. And one of your employees gets
30:08
Speaker 3: sick and you just want that person to have the
30:11
Speaker 3: best care possible. And imagine if their kid needed some
30:15
Speaker 3: therapy that just wasn't covered by your insurance. And so
30:18
Speaker 3: that was really what motivated us to invest in Aerodyne.
30:22
Speaker 3: And what Aradime does is creates a market for these
30:25
Speaker 3: products so that they can get more efficiently covered. So
30:28
Speaker 3: they go in and they negotiate good rates with the
30:30
Speaker 3: pharmaceutical companies that are creating the products, and they negotiate
30:35
Speaker 3: quality agreements with the providers that are deploying the products
30:39
Speaker 3: because they're not simple to use generally. And you want
30:42
Speaker 3: to make sure that they're being used properly. And so
30:45
Speaker 3: they're really kind of creating this ecosystem where the products
30:48
Speaker 3: can be used effectively and cost effectively. Look, they're going
30:51
Speaker 3: to be expensive. They're going to be very expensive because
30:54
Speaker 3: it's a free market and there are not that many
30:57
Speaker 3: people using them. And it's not uncommon to see these
31:01
Speaker 3: products come to market at a million to five million
31:03
Speaker 3: dollars a therapy.
31:03
Speaker 2: It's kind of like a next gen care mark.
31:06
Speaker 3: Right?
31:06
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like it because when I was
31:08
Speaker 1: coming up at Genentech, we had cystic fibrosis treatments. You
31:12
Speaker 1: hadn't seen them before.
31:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
31:15
Speaker 1: And it was the care marks of the world that,
31:17
Speaker 1: I mean, eventually helped us get it all out there.
31:20
Speaker 1: But I was curious about it because obviously we work
31:22
Speaker 1: with rare and ultra rare companies. I just had the
31:25
Speaker 1: head of the Rett Syndrome Society on here and we
31:29
Speaker 1: haven't aired that, but it's gut-wrenching when you think about
31:32
Speaker 1: what they go through and assuming treatment come about, we
31:35
Speaker 1: need to be able to go somewhere with that.
31:37
Speaker 3: This is a really important company more for the future
31:41
Speaker 3: than it is for, because as these therapies come. So
31:44
Speaker 3: it really, for us, it's an early stage company. It's
31:47
Speaker 3: a bet on the future for us. And I couldn't
31:49
Speaker 3: be more excited about it. The, the CEO is a,
31:52
Speaker 3: a good friend named Will Schrank, who's been in this
31:55
Speaker 3: for quite some time. And in fact, he was at
31:57
Speaker 3: CVS and has seen all different aspects of the business.
32:01
Speaker 3: He'd be great for your show because he's just like
32:03
Speaker 3: a very wonderful and warm human being. And he is
32:05
Speaker 3: so driven by the mission around making sure that these
32:10
Speaker 3: therapies become available to the people who need them. And
32:13
Speaker 3: so that's been fun. It was seeded by Andreessen. We
32:16
Speaker 3: helped them with their A round and the company's doing great.
32:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, please connect because that's a hot topic and I
32:23
Speaker 1: continue to talk to, again, this is a mother with
32:26
Speaker 1: a child with a disease and there are more and
32:29
Speaker 1: more companies and I think now policy that's enabling more
32:34
Speaker 1: of this.
32:35
Speaker 2: So we'll see where that goes.
32:36
Speaker 1: So, you know, I was curious, you're a professor, I
32:41
Speaker 1: guess an adjunct faculty at Georgetown. I went to the
32:44
Speaker 1: rival in Syracuse and I'm now a professor in residence there.
32:49
Speaker 3: Excellent.
32:50
Speaker 2: What are you teaching? What are you learning from the
32:52
Speaker 2: next generation? How's that going?
32:54
Speaker 3: That's great. I mean, I teach healthcare in the business
32:56
Speaker 3: school and I've actually been teaching at business schools back
32:59
Speaker 3: to 2000. So it's now 26 years.
33:01
Speaker 2: Wow.
33:01
Speaker 3: When I left the government, I started teaching at Duke.
33:03
Speaker 3: I did that for about 15 years. I taught at
33:06
Speaker 3: Wharton for a little while before finally coming to my
33:08
Speaker 3: senses and that I could actually drive my car to
33:11
Speaker 3: a business school and a relatively good one right down
33:13
Speaker 3: the road. Yeah.
33:15
Speaker 2: I thought you could walk there, but okay. Driving.
33:19
Speaker 3: I love teaching because I love hearing from the students.
33:22
Speaker 3: And I always make sure that I have medical school
33:25
Speaker 3: students and students from the policy school and business school.
33:29
Speaker 3: And it's an ecosystem. There's a lot of discussion and debate.
33:32
Speaker 3: And they're asking all the best and most important questions like,
33:35
Speaker 3: why is this system the way it is? And what
33:38
Speaker 3: can we do to fix it? And can technology be
33:40
Speaker 3: leveraged effectively? to fix it. And gee, maybe we should
33:43
Speaker 3: be thinking about more universal coverage in this country. And like,
33:48
Speaker 3: I always enjoy teaching because they're asking the best questions
33:51
Speaker 3: and it challenges me to be a better professional. And
33:54
Speaker 3: I always hear from students after the class and they've
33:57
Speaker 3: got questions and I enjoy those interactions a lot.
34:00
Speaker 1: And they're going to carry forward the whole thing, which
34:03
Speaker 1: I've seen happen through the program I support.
34:07
Speaker 2: At Syracuse, I'm sure you feel the same.
34:09
Speaker 1: I mean, you've probably spawned so many people that have
34:11
Speaker 1: gone in to the field, not only from your business,
34:14
Speaker 1: but the students. So look, I always ask as we're
34:17
Speaker 1: wrapping up, what are you getting real about right now
34:21
Speaker 1: in your life, in your business?
34:23
Speaker 2: What are you getting real about right now?
34:26
Speaker 3: That's a great question. For me right now, it's about
34:29
Speaker 3: my family and making sure that I'm very present. I've
34:32
Speaker 3: got three kids. They're 24, 28, and 30, and I
34:38
Speaker 3: love spending time with them, and they're awesome. My wife, Jen,
34:41
Speaker 3: has founded a nonprofit focused on helping the descendants of
34:46
Speaker 3: Holocaust survivors relate the stories of their families in schools,
34:50
Speaker 3: and it's a fantastic nonprofit. And we're spending a lot
34:53
Speaker 3: of time on that together. What's that called? Oh, it's
34:56
Speaker 3: called Living Links. It's a wonderful organization. Your listeners should
35:00
Speaker 3: check it out. They're growing by leaps and bounds and
35:03
Speaker 3: hired this great new CEO to run the place. And
35:07
Speaker 3: it's a great organization. That was one of the big motivators.
35:10
Speaker 3: You know, my father-in-law, Bill Lowe, was a Holocaust survivor,
35:14
Speaker 3: my wife's father. And I was blessed to have 30
35:17
Speaker 3: amazing years with him. And When he passed away, that
35:20
Speaker 3: was really what kind of motivated us to decide that
35:24
Speaker 3: we're going to kind of go all in on this.
35:26
Speaker 3: So that's something that I've been spending time on, and
35:29
Speaker 3: there's joy in that as well. And then it's like
35:32
Speaker 3: balancing the work-life balance, and we're all focused on that.
35:37
Speaker 1: Well, that's never-ending. Yeah, there's probably very little balance. So
35:40
Speaker 1: speaking of that, what's your favorite vacation? you've ever taken
35:44
Speaker 1: or type of vacation you like to take?
35:47
Speaker 3: I'll give you two actually. Probably my favorite on a
35:50
Speaker 3: day to day. So we have a place on the
35:52
Speaker 3: Chesapeake Bay and like to kayak and paddle forward. And
35:56
Speaker 3: it's just like complete let down. And then the other
35:59
Speaker 3: thing that we love to do is travel with the
36:01
Speaker 3: Holocaust Museum, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. We're part of
36:04
Speaker 3: a group. We've been back there as part of governance
36:07
Speaker 3: and donors for quite some time. It's a passion project
36:10
Speaker 3: of ours. And we travel internationally with leadership of the
36:14
Speaker 3: museum and we help develop relationships with governmental organizations, non-governmental organizations.
36:20
Speaker 3: And that's really super meaningful. And so like We've been
36:22
Speaker 3: to Poland and Italy and we went to the Vatican
36:26
Speaker 3: and we're honored to meet the Pope there and the
36:28
Speaker 3: prior Pope. And, you know, it's basically those are interactions
36:31
Speaker 3: that are very meaningful. And we're going to the Baltics
36:34
Speaker 3: this year. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Gdansk, all very important places.
36:39
Speaker 3: So that's kind of travel with purpose. Right.
36:41
Speaker 2: And the way it works is you're trying to get
36:43
Speaker 2: down to what? Open borders.
36:46
Speaker 1: Little museums or what do they do?
36:48
Speaker 3: It's relationships and it's going and showing that you care.
36:51
Speaker 3: And it's the artifacts that preserve this history are mostly
36:55
Speaker 3: based in Europe. And so you have to have, I mean,
36:58
Speaker 3: this is like the importance of having strong relationships NGO
37:02
Speaker 3: governmental organizations having good relationships internationally because we can't do
37:08
Speaker 3: it alone in America it's like we have to have
37:10
Speaker 3: those relationships and that's super important.
37:12
Speaker 1: Well that sounds really cool I know that my mother-in-law
37:15
Speaker 1: would love to hear more about that definitely going to
37:18
Speaker 1: learn more about this whole thing because I'd seen something
37:22
Speaker 1: where they were doing holograms right I guess they had
37:26
Speaker 1: taped these stories and now you could go and hear
37:29
Speaker 1: the stories but almost more virtually. It's great to hear
37:33
Speaker 1: there's this kind of work going on. And I'm going
37:35
Speaker 1: to follow up on that line soon enough. And if
37:38
Speaker 1: there's an album that's the soundtrack to your life, what
37:41
Speaker 1: would that be?
37:41
Speaker 3: Oh, my God. I have been so obsessed with Beyonce's Renaissance.
37:47
Speaker 2: I love how we really do. We always hear something new. Everybody.
37:51
Speaker 2: I mean, I've had 55 guests.
37:53
Speaker 3: I used to make my living as a musician. Wow.
37:56
Speaker 2: Who knew that?
37:57
Speaker 3: I trained in viola performance at Oberlin University. conservatory. And
38:02
Speaker 3: the rest is history. The only cool thing about me
38:04
Speaker 3: is that I got to play with the band Boston.
38:06
Speaker 3: But I love rock and roll. And I mean, Beyonce's like,
38:09
Speaker 3: he's definitely the artist that I'm most obsessed with right now.
38:13
Speaker 2: Well, that's pretty cool. If you were in any other
38:16
Speaker 2: line of work, I guess, what would you be doing?
38:18
Speaker 2: Would you be a musician?
38:19
Speaker 3: Oh, gosh. You know, I tried that. It didn't stick because,
38:23
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, like for me, it wasn't intellectually challenging
38:26
Speaker 3: enough and I wasn't good enough to be at the
38:28
Speaker 3: top of my game. So I'm pretty happy where I
38:31
Speaker 3: am right now.
38:31
Speaker 2: That's great. That's a good answer. Listen, man, thanks for
38:34
Speaker 2: joining us.
38:35
Speaker 3: Jim, thanks. It's fun.
38:36
Speaker 1: Thanks for taking an active role in improving healthcare. That's
38:39
Speaker 1: what we're all about at Get Real and want to
38:43
Speaker 1: find new ways to partner and definitely very interested in
38:46
Speaker 1: learning more about what your wife's up to.
38:49
Speaker 2: Excellent. All right, man. Thanks. Learned a lot today.
38:51
Speaker 3: Hey, everyone.
38:54
Speaker 2: Thanks for watching.
38:55
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you take the time to listen
38:57
Speaker 1: to this and tune in so please subscribe follow I've
39:02
Speaker 1: got a lot of amazing guests you're going to learn
39:04
Speaker 1: a lot and you're going to feel a lot better
39:06
Speaker 1: because you did it