Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / #200 - Why Talking to Strangers is Good for Your Friendships (Dr. Gillian Sandstrom)

Transcript

#200 - Why Talking to Strangers is Good for Your Friendships (Dr. Gillian Sandstrom) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Dear Nina Conversations about friendship.
0:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I am your host Nina Betta.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I have been writing about friendship for a while over a decade of podcasting about it since 2021.
0:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And this topic is a really interesting one that I have not covered in the literal way that we are covering.
0:21
[SPEAKER_01]: which is why it is worth your time to talk to strangers.
0:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like it has nothing to do with friendship, but of course it does.
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there is nobody that you are friends with who wasn't a stranger at least at one point.
0:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course some of the friends you make who are strangers you meet in a certain context.
0:38
[SPEAKER_01]: you meet them because they live in your building, they're your neighbors, they work with you or they were introduced to by someone else and so even though they're a stranger there's that comfort of that you already know you have something in common or you already know that you live near them so it's worth your time and all this talking to strangers different than that and the reasons to do it are not necessarily to become friends but it's still will help with your friendships in less direct ways and to explain that to us as Dr. Gillian Sandstrom who is an associate professor in
1:08
[SPEAKER_01]: the psychology of kindness.
1:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
1:10
[SPEAKER_01]: At the University of Sussex, she lives in Brighton, England, and she's the author of Once Upon a Stranger, the science of how small talk can add up to a big life.
1:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Her research has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Atlantic.
1:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It has been quoted on books.
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I will admit that I came in a little wary, like do I really want to be talking to strangers more.
1:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I presented some of my reasons why I'm not sure about it to Jillian and talking to her and reading her book has convinced me that there is good reason to make this part of our life and honestly the world being like it is these days how divisive things sometimes feel also how impersonal things feel the way AI is increasing so much I think Jillian is on to something I'm excited for you to hear from her
1:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, Jillian, welcome to Do Your Nina.
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Nina.
2:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I already know you because I've heard your podcast.
2:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, and I've heard you, and I've read your book.
2:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And actually, yes, so apropos for our topic, because we were, of course, total strangers when you first reached out to me to let me know that your book exists and that it would be perfect for this podcast.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Now we're connected.
2:16
[SPEAKER_01]: the email version is just another version of that.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I've made friends that way.
2:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I made a friend that I am pretty close to just by a randomly reaching out.
2:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It was during COVID and normally I'd go to an academic conference, and I feel like the best part of it is usually a meet one new person, and hopefully I stay in touch with.
2:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that wasn't happening because of COVID, and I thought, well, I could still meet a new person.
2:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought about who I'd seen on social media and that seemed interesting and I just reached out to someone that I'd never met before, who was like a friend of a friend.
2:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just like, hey, want to have a coffee, you know, online.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're still like really close friends.
2:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something nice works.
2:54
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing I...
2:55
[SPEAKER_01]: The pretty shit about the premise of your book is there are reasons to talk to changes and they don't necessarily have to end in that way.
3:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It may end in a friendship it may not, but I think one thing when you and I come both agree on is most friendships do start with some meeting of two people who did not know each other at one point.
3:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not always so spoon that is now your roommates.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And
3:16
[SPEAKER_01]: College, that's different.
3:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You're set up to meet, of course, your strangers, but that's not the same as what you are writing about.
3:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You are talking about talking to complete strangers.
3:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So before we dive into what you have to say about it, I want to read one paragraph from your book that's the whole ground the listeners too.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's towards the beginning.
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the introduction.
3:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Jillian writes, this is not a book about how to make friends, how to find love, or how to network your way to success.
3:40
[SPEAKER_01]: However, to do any of these things,
3:43
[SPEAKER_01]: you'll need to talk to strangers.
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not unreasonable, therefore, to expect that feeling more comfortable talking to strangers will make it a little easier to achieve these goals.
3:51
[SPEAKER_01]: But I hope that you'll talk to strangers for no particular reason and with no expectations, just for the joy and humanity of it.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, we are just talking about it.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: yeah perfect before we get deep into all the how to talk to a stranger how to end us conversation why we should do this all even though sometimes we don't feel like talking to strangers what is the connection between the work you do of studying the benefits of talking to strangers and you doing it in your own life you are I don't want to say patience zero but you're somebody who's
4:22
[SPEAKER_01]: is engaged in this in real life.
4:24
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the connection between that and what my listeners normally come to this show for, which is about making, keeping, losing friends?
4:30
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think about the people that you're friends with right now, they used to be strangers, right?
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: We've all heard the line.
4:36
[SPEAKER_00]: The strangers is a friend that you haven't met yet.
4:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I did a little bit of homework.
4:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You're being on this podcast made me think, I thought it would be fun to reflect a little bit.
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was thinking about the people that I'm closest to and how I met them.
4:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And who started it?
4:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Not all the time.
4:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it was the context or sometimes you, you know, someone introduces you.
4:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not kind of the context that I attend a study which is
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: some random person that you've never met before that just happened to come across that you chat with and then you walk away expecting to never see them again, right?
5:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not always that, but sometimes it is.
5:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I thought about the people that I'm friends with now, there's definitely times where it's just been an unexpected friendship rather than an introduction or, oh, I'm starting new work or starting at school and you're going to keep seeing people and so that
5:23
[SPEAKER_00]: helps make it happen.
5:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes we have these unexpected friendships that just start from nothing, just start from talking to someone because you happen to be in the same place at the same time.
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The second thing is I think all the skills that are involved in talking to a stranger are things that benefit us in all sorts of other ways.
5:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a chapter on my book called Scalatin Key, and a skeleton key is like the key that opens every door, getting comfortable, talking to strangers, helps you deal with uncertainty and the possibility of rejection, and just all these kind of skills.
5:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It helps you build the skills that are translatable to things that help you maintain your friendships.
6:02
[SPEAKER_00]: That's two ways that it kind of relates to the general talk
6:06
[SPEAKER_01]: that speaks to a lot of what I hear from people is they are so afraid of rejection.
6:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So even if you're meeting somebody in the context, which would be easier, a neighbor, someone who lives in your building, someone who works in your office.
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: These are different than strangers, which we'll get into later, but still requires, okay, I need to start a conversation with this person and it's actually, in some ways, if you think about it, it could be easier with a stranger as opposed to your neighbor who you're going to
6:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
6:34
[SPEAKER_01]: The stranger is a lower stake practice and it's good practice in asking questions and stopping and listening to the answer and I've done a whole episode just about asking better questions.
6:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's its own topic and it's a good thing to practice or to ask questions at all.
6:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, talking the stranger allows us to practice all these things.
6:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
6:54
[SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of the things that stop people from wanting to do that you cover in the book and they're all applicable to friendship too.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing that comes to mind is worrying what the other person will think.
7:05
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big one, and I think it all goes back to this sense of belonging, and so researchers and psychology believe that we suffer if we don't feel a sense of belonging.
7:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's belonging, connection, feeling valued, feeling seen.
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes it really important to us, what other people think.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though we'd like to think, you know, it doesn't matter on my own person, it doesn't matter what other people think.
7:28
[SPEAKER_00]: We want that to be true, but I think we can't help, but care like it's just built in.
7:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just really, really important to us that we feel that sense of belonging, so it feels high stakes.
7:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're really hard on ourselves and worry a lot about not being able to feel that need.
7:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Talking to a stranger is the practice.
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's low stakes practice.
7:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be if you can lower the stakes of, yeah, the person might be a little annoyed.
7:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I can think of a time
7:53
[SPEAKER_01]: right then on both sides of it to be honest right then nervous to talk to people this just happened this morning I had to move our recording time because I had a conference in town that I was invited to attend very last minute and it was only a two hour thing which is great but I went all by myself it was people who are it was kind of scary it was people who are in this digital space some people came with people
8:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to force myself and I knew you and I were speaking later and I just read your book.
8:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was really helpful to have that reminder that these little small talk conversations.
8:23
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, it's going to be short term because there was going to be a presentation of some kind.
8:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was just maybe the first 20 minutes.
8:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not high stakes.
8:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, maybe someone would be annoying and they'd rather just be checking their phone, but maybe someone also who came alone would be relieved.
8:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I ended up talking to a few people.
8:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't exchange numbers or anything.
8:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't looking to make her friend, but it was good practice.
8:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you talk about of just getting over yourself.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the research I've done is on something called the liking gap.
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically, we get two people talking for the first time.
8:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You and me, we're talking for the first time.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So after we have a conversation, if we ask you Nina, you know, how much did you like Jillian, you're likely to say, yeah, you know, I think our conversation went okay.
9:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked her quite a bit.
9:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I said, how much do you think Jillian liked you?
9:06
[SPEAKER_00]: on average, you're likely to say, oh, I'm not so sure.
9:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not that interesting.
9:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't tell that story right.
9:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I should have said this.
9:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't have said that.
9:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So we really get stuck in our heads.
9:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And we know that it's in our heads because one of the studies we did looking at the liking gap is we had people watch videos of the conversations and the observers who weren't involved.
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We're pretty accurate in seeing how much people actually liked each other.
9:31
[SPEAKER_00]: but they were not accurate at all and they couldn't see the gap because the gap is in our heads.
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay.
9:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's not that we're picking up on something.
9:41
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just inventing it.
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We have that voice in our head saying, nope, you're not good at this.
9:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I tell people that all the time, and I know about this study, but it's cool to hear you talk about it, because long before I met you or read this book, people have been quoting that all the time, and I like to be able to credit the actual researcher.
9:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So was it your research?
9:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I am part of the team that did that research yet.
10:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Fantastic.
10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically, if I'm people like you more than you think, it's so heartening, it's so encouraging.
10:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it really helps people get over some of their fears, like just the idea, I can be a little braver.
10:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's enough to plant that seed.
10:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, maybe it is in my head.
10:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I need to just give it a try anyway.
10:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I'll tell you when I've been on the other side of this kind of thing, I wonder what you make of it.
10:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, recently, because obviously, I could go through time and come up with a million examples on either end.
10:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually don't travel that much.
10:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't.
10:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I happened to be that I was on a lot of flights.
10:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I had two friends, fathers pass away, suddenly, and I went to their dad's funeral, so which, by the way, as a friendship tip, I always think that's a great thing to do if you can do it.
10:40
[SPEAKER_01]: One was in New Orleans.
10:41
[SPEAKER_01]: One was in Maryland.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I live in Minnesota.
10:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was a lot of airplane time, and they were a few weeks apart.
10:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just a so tired and spent, after the second one, and I was thrilled to have a flight where I could just be with my computer.
10:53
[SPEAKER_01]: To be honest, I've a lot of work to do editing all the things in the person next to me kept talking to me.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I was doing all the cues.
11:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I was
11:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like doing all the things to show like I was nice at first, I'm a friendly person and I would hate to make anyone feel bad and I was interested to talk to him for a couple minutes.
11:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But just a couple minutes and he did not take the hint.
11:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Something like that does make me a little afraid to talk to strangers sometimes and I'm like, how am I going to get out of this?
11:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's funny because, you know, I've talked to hundreds of hundreds of strangers now and starting a conversation has gotten easier and easier because I notice more opportunities.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I notice more ways to give me easy ways to start conversations.
11:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So that has become easier and easier.
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still no expert at ending conversations.
11:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I am getting better though.
11:41
[SPEAKER_00]: There is hope.
11:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I've run a whole lot of how to talk to strangers' workshops.
11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very much about facilitating and asking people to talk to each other about various things.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really helpful to pre-think what you might do in a situation before that situation happens.
11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's just because me, you know, I panic.
12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So thinking head before it happens is really helpful.
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So I get people to think about what could you do if you want to end the conversation.
12:07
[SPEAKER_00]: The single most common thing people do is lie.
12:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in your case it's not a lie that you could have just said and I realize it's uncomfortable to say you could have said I just kind of need a moment to myself if I had a rough day or I have this work that I need to do and just being straightforward with someone can be really helpful.
12:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm kind of getting to the punchline actually because most people lie.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: They say, you know, I need to get a drink or I need to make a call or I need to
12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: go to the bathroom or whatever, but then there's always someone at the workshop who says they're just direct.
12:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They just say, thank you.
12:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I enjoyed our conversation, but it's time for me to move on now.
12:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I just had my heart like, I know.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: A little extra just that.
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I know when people are like, you can do that?
12:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I needed to hear that from these people, I was supposed to be teaching the workshop, but you know, I feel like I learned from them and I've been trying to do that a bit more often.
12:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I go for walk most days, so I talked to strangers and now some people are not strangers anymore, but I do that almost every day.
13:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I've started experimenting with that.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I had this day where I had this really interesting conversation with this couple actually.
13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I was really enjoying talking to them, but I thought I need to get back to my desk.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm taking a break from work.
13:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy to take a break.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't want it to turn into something too long.
13:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I did just go the direct career.
13:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, I have really enjoyed talking to you, but I got to go now.
13:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was fine.
13:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, I think it's the voice in our head telling us you can't do that.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's fine.
13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I think especially if you can do it in a polite way, right?
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's important to first acknowledge and say thank you and then be firm.
13:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I had the great grants on the Emily post on last year.
13:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
13:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about ending conversations a little bit.
13:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just coming back to me now.
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: He gave me two words that are very key to begin that.
13:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you was not the one, but that also works.
13:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you and then kind of go on with what you were about to say and I have to go.
13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: but his version was excuse me.
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what that expression is for.
13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you could say the thing that you would also say after thank you.
13:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the same concept really.
14:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But if excuse me, I have to go finish some work.
14:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been so great talking to you.
14:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's good.
14:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I do feel like we skipped a step as my fault as the person in charge of this conversation.
14:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what conversations do though.
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Ladies, jump around.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the fun part.
14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: We're already at the ending of our how to end a conversation.
14:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't really talk about how to start one.
14:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I really respect that you practice what you preach and that you are advocating for people to talk to strangers, to bring some humanity into their life, to work on those social skills too.
14:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And you really do it.
14:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That you do it all the time.
14:31
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're teaching the workshop, you what are some ideas you give to people who might really want to take you up on this idea.
14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I started sharing stories, my sort of adventures, talking to strangers on social media.
14:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And that came about because everybody ate that I knew seemed to be on social media.
14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I want to be there too, but I don't know what I have to offer.
14:53
[SPEAKER_00]: What would I share?
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, academics we do research, but it takes a long time.
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: In terms of having something new to share, I don't have that very often.
15:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, what could I do?
15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Then it occurred to me, I do all this research about talking to strangers, but I could tell people the stories behind it.
15:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I was writing my book, I got very nerdy, and I exported all these stories that I posted on social media, I looked through them all for some patterns.
15:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I came up with was three different themes in terms of how I tend to start conversations.
15:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Together, they spelled the word quick.
15:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So the QU stands for question,
15:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I see stands for in common in the case, stands for kindness.
15:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Question, I mean, I think that's pretty self-evident, but we can ask someone about what they're wearing.
15:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I've started so many conversations just by saying, what you're doing.
15:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So one example, I saw this woman standing in front of a bush, and she was like lifting up the leaf and looking underneath, and I was like,
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: what on earth is this person doing and then she taught me about insect.
15:55
[SPEAKER_00]: They create these little goals anyway.
15:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It was fascinating and so yeah I might see someone with binoculars around their neck and I'll say what are you hoping to see today or what have you already seen?
16:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's something you can get better at but it's like tapping into your curiosity and just asking people and people love talking about themselves.
16:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That's an easy way to get started.
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the I.C.
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: stands for in common, when you have an opportunity to talk to someone you're in the same place at the same time, I think this why we talk about the weather is it's something that we have in common, it's a common experience.
16:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you can drop people's attention to stuff in your shared environment as well.
16:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the last one, the case stands for kindness.
16:32
[SPEAKER_00]: that could be just cracking a joke.
16:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So I talk a lot in the book about my dad who's an epic stranger talker, he's the best.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: He loves to start with humor.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not as comfortable with it, so it's not something I do as often, but it is, I think, an act of kindness.
16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: He does it out of a desire to make someone laugh.
16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: but you can also give someone a compliment, that's a classic.
16:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I think being on the receiving end of a compliment from a stranger, you're like, they had no reason to do that.
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: The friend does it, you're like, oh, they're just being nice.
17:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But if a stranger says, wow, that color looks so great on you, you think, you know, they kind of broke the rules to talk to you to say that, essentially authentic, so feels amazing.
17:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for people who have not read the book,
17:15
[SPEAKER_01]: they need to be convinced.
17:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about the way people act at Trader Joe's or all the jokes that happen around Trader Joe's.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of content out there about everybody has to kind of, I don't mean everybody, but I feel this way too sometimes to gear up to go in there.
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you been to a Trader Joe's?
17:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I have been to a Trader Joe's, but I'm not familiar with these memesers.
17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I might the first person to talk to you about this?
17:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:36
[SPEAKER_00]: No way.
17:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is great for your work.
17:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe it.
17:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You really should send someone out here to study.
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Trader Joe is who you know.
17:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a grocery store.
17:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like smaller.
17:45
[SPEAKER_01]: It's that they're not chocolate.
17:46
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not chocolate.
17:48
[SPEAKER_00]: See salt caramel.
17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are, right?
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, they're known for certain things.
17:51
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, it's not a huge store.
17:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And everything in there is branded Trader Joe.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're not getting 10 options of every kind of thing.
17:57
[SPEAKER_01]: They are known for being extremely friendly when you check out.
18:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That's clearly part of the brand.
18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They wear a Hawaiian-type shirt,
18:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not matter who the checkup person is.
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: This is clearly across the board customer service training.
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: They have every single person say, it varies.
18:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So it might be something like, how's your day going?
18:15
[SPEAKER_01]: What else do you have going on today?
18:17
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll start a conversation.
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter if the line's long.
18:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter if it's short.
18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: This is clearly mandated.
18:23
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll be jokes going around social media where some people don't mind that, but the sense I get is enough people find a annoying to the point where before they go in they have to be like, okay, I'm going to like have a interaction, I'm going to now of course it really is a lovely thing when you think about it and your book speaks to this.
18:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I look up from your phone, remember that there is a human being in front of you, you are a human being.
18:45
[SPEAKER_01]: We are meant to connect and not just meant to go through life like robots.
18:53
[SPEAKER_01]: We are not robots and yet there is still that feeling of dread sometimes.
18:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it an efficiency thing?
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think that's a thing.
18:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's not related to what you're saying.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think some people are like, I don't want to have any chitchat because that's just going to take longer.
19:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a hurry and both of us are thinking like the researcher now.
19:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Like why is it?
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You haven't been there.
19:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I have been there and I do sometimes feel that dread too.
19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you do write about this and let's talk about is the small talk piece of it.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It feels pointless.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: a little bit.
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You may see this person again, you may not.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want us to talk about the difference between a stranger and a loose tie.
19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If I always had the same person checking me out, I might feel differently.
19:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I have had that.
19:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had like favorite checkout people, but that's in a context where like most of the time there is no chatting.
19:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've happened to come across someone who seemed friendly and we had a moment and so then if I go back to the store, I'll look for that person.
19:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So that I could see them again.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a choice based on the positive experience to start with.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the conversations started, as you just mentioned, those are hard.
19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: How's your day going on?
19:56
[SPEAKER_01]: What have you got going on that feels like wait, I don't know you.
19:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That's maybe it feels a bit personal.
20:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do you have going on this weekend is if it's a Friday, they'll say that do you have any more errands today?
20:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It's maybe too open and dead and then there's all these people behind me and I'm like,
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I how detailed the mice also get in this answer?
20:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It just feels like a lot of pressure and I think some people worry that person behind me's gonna hear my answer to that's not something that I've ever worried about Maybe I'm just oblivious, but people have told me about that that worry that not only is the cashier gonna have any interest in what I have to say But just the next person is gonna overhear everything and that's really weird
20:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe they wish you wouldn't have answered so long.
20:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay.
20:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I have them behind people who really get into it with the answers.
20:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to be like, guys, we all know they're going to answer questions.
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Answer quick.
20:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go.
20:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If so, maybe it is an efficient thing, but because they're asking every person to, it does feel very impersonal.
20:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So in their attempt to make it really warm and friendly, it's like, okay, I get the gig.
20:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, Jim, and I'm old enough now where I'm like, I don't go to gyms anymore.
20:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I play tennis.
20:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I walk a lot.
20:54
[SPEAKER_00]: There are things that I enjoy.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not enjoy going to the gym.
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: For a while, I was playing tennis at a place that had a gym attached.
21:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was receptionist who worked there and it was always the same people.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew them and we'd have a chat and it was really lovely.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was sort of part of the fun of going and it felt really nice.
21:10
[SPEAKER_00]: but I've also been to gyms where it's clearly just mandated and they're just like, hello and I'm like, I don't know you.
21:17
[SPEAKER_00]: This doesn't feel real and it doesn't mean anything to me.
21:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the authenticity really matters.
21:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know what?
21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That I do go to a gym and I play tennis by play tennis at that gym and they do the same thing.
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You check in and then they have your name and they'll be like,
21:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks Nina, have a good day, and then when you're leaving, they don't know your name at that point because there's you didn't want many people, but they'll call out and be like, hope it was a good work out of have a good day.
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't bother me because it's not a question.
21:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like I'm saying people shouldn't talk to each other in these experiences, but I think the Trader Joe's one is harder.
21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the small talk that gets to me, but you do say there are some benefits to small talks.
21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?
21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a brand new study that just came out like in the last couple weeks where they looked at boring conversation topics.
22:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So they asked people deliberately, they had to rate a list of topics and they paired people up and it was like a topic that one person found interesting and the other person found boring.
22:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And what they wanted to see is, does that affect how the conversation goes?
22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: They concluded it doesn't matter if you talk about boring topics or topics that you think are going to be boring, because before you start a conversation, you don't know how it's going to go, right?
22:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's scary and exciting, depending on how you look at it.
22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: In this case, they were told you're going to talk about the weather, whatever the topic is.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: There are people who find that fascinating, including what has been used totally a weather nerd.
22:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is possible to find someone who says that is the topic I'm very interested in.
22:43
[SPEAKER_00]: But beforehand, all these people knew was we are going to talk about the weather.
22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't know who the other person is, anything about them.
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So they focus on the topic and the topic sounds boring.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That means the conversation is going to be boring.
22:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But what the researchers argue is, once you start the conversation, the topic doesn't matter.
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about the back and forth and someone listens and someone makes a joke.
23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about creating that moment where you feel connected to each other.
23:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can do that even when the topic isn't all that interesting.
23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like us to define strangers versus a loose tie.
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We kind of talked about if we see the same person at the checkout over and over, I would call that a loose tie.
23:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I just said that earlier, but we haven't defined it.
23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would like to know how you define the difference.
23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a stranger is basically someone that you've never seen before, the kind of interactions that I attend to study are the kind where you see someone and you have no expectation of seeing them again.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes that's not true, right?
23:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you'll talk to someone and then maybe it's a stranger the first time you meet a new colleague at work and then you see them over and over again so they turn into their no longer a stranger.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the sort of prototypical way I think of a stranger is someone that you've never seen before and will never see again.
23:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I talk in the book about this one relationship I had with a lady who worked at a hot dog stand.
23:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was doing my master's degree at this campus that was in a very urban environment, and I did my research in one building and my supervisor's office was in a different building.
24:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I walked between the two, I passed this hotdog stand.
24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I developed this relationship with the woman who worked at the hotdog stand.
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: My girl relationship.
24:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time I walked past, I'd smile and wave at her and she'd smile and wave at me.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That was it.
24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: We never spoke and never bought a hotdog.
24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel a little bit bad about that now.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But it occurred to me eventually, after a while, I realized how important she was to me.
24:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Just the fact that this woman knew who I was.
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming, you know, I felt like I could read that in her face.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: She knew who I was.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It grounded me and made me feel connected in this environment.
24:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And on days when she wasn't there,
24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt a bit unsettled that made me start thinking about all these kind of relationships that I had in my life that were like that.
24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So like the receptionist at the tennis club or Barry at the pet store who you know I'd go to buy my cat food and he'd say how's not get doing and all these relationships there were what I call weak ties.
24:59
[SPEAKER_00]: They were so important to me and yet there was no way I would ever invite any of these people over for dinner.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't imagine sharing my deep
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: acquaintances, we feel that desire like I shouldn't be friends with someone if I don't think we could potentially be closer friends.
25:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think we kind of believe that someday we might be someday when I find the time we're going to have coffee and there's potential there and I think this person could be a friend.
25:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we think that a lot, but I think it's okay to just have these people who are just providing some kind of value to us.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to have that intention of moving them forward.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: could mean the person at work that you're not entirely close friends with you've never seen outside of work, but you always choose to sit with them because they have a special relationship with you and written a paper sort of on the we call that a fringe ship, you know, they're kind of on the fringe ship.
25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh I know that, that's good a fringe ship.
25:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so there's a range, there's sort of close friends in the one and we have strangers and then everything in the middle is we're not sure how to sort those people.
26:05
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole range of different people who qualify in that middle ground.
26:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So your work is focused on that extreme on one end, the true changer, the person who you're not necessarily going to keep running into maybe well, but like you said no expectations certainly no expectation that you're going to become friends.
26:23
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing that you talked about in the book that definitely I see in my work is that people disclose information to a stranger in a way that they maybe won't or can't with a friend.
26:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you where I see it.
26:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a Facebook group called Dear Nina the Group.
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people know each other, but generally there's strangers.
26:41
[SPEAKER_01]: There's 700, let's say, 60 something in the group right now, but only a small percentage are active in it.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we call them loose ties.
26:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we call them weak ties.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I call them loose ties as weak.
26:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It has a negative connotation.
26:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though I know you don't mean it that way.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You mean it as, and not someone who's a close friend.
26:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't coin the term, like it existed before me, and so I just adopted it by totally agree.
27:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Weeks sort of sounds like they're not enough, or not worthy, which is not the intention enough.
27:05
[SPEAKER_01]: to add another layer, a lot of people write into this group anonymously on Facebook in the groups, if the group moderator allows it, which I do, I have the setting that allows it, people are very kind in my group.
27:16
[SPEAKER_01]: If they started to write really off the wall things or the comments were really mean, I wouldn't allow that, but because everybody really is coming there for friendship help, and they're helping each other, and then I course chime in, and so this is a place where disclosure is happening for strangers.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: They are saying things they probably don't feel like they could say to even their closest friend and it's helpful.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So what did you find in your work about disclosure and strangers?
27:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I talk about work.
27:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not mine.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't take any credit for it.
27:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's really interesting because there's actually a lot of reasons why it can be easier.
27:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Partly, it's that it doesn't put your relationship at risk.
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're talking about something you're a little bit worried about how others are going to take it, how they're going to respond, you really don't want to put those close relationships at risk.
27:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can kind of try it out on someone who has a bit more objectivity and isn't emotionally involved with your disclosure.
28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, too, that when we share something with someone we're close to, every time you see them, you're going to be reminded that you share that thing with them, and they might tell other people that you know that you have in common, and neither those things can happen when it's someone that you don't know.
28:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's been some research that found one of the main reasons that we choose the person that we choose to disclose to is just that they happen to be in the right place at the right time.
28:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we spend a lot more time with people we don't know very well than with the people we're closest to, which is sad.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think it's one of the main reasons that we end up sharing stuff with people we're not close to.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And in a way that's kind of nice because it can often develop closeness.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you share something with someone else, you feel closer to them, they feel closer to you.
28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Generally speaking, people like each other more after there's been a disclosure on either side.
28:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So you tend to disclose to people that you like, but they tend to like you for having disclosed to them.
29:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that makes sense and what you just said explains why my face soap group works so well Because people have disclosed things even if it's anonymously It's we still know there's a person behind it who's in this group.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They treat each other well people do not answer in a way Like well, what do you think would happen?
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean you could somebody could write this scenario that they're having with their friend and somebody could respond Also anonymously because you could be anonymous in the comments
29:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And they easily could say something snappy, but they don't, and it's like this respect for the disclosure that we all understand how hard that is to do, and so then we treat it with respects.
29:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, actually, there's some research showing that when we consider disclosing something, we feel very vulnerable.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes us feel weak in a way because we're the one asking for help, and it can feel sort of unsettling.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't like to need help from other people.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But when other people are vulnerable and share things, we tend to view that as courageous.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's this mismatch in how we think of ourselves disclosing versus other people disclosing.
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah,
30:04
[SPEAKER_00]: general we tend to respect and like people and think of them as courageous for being brave enough to share something.
30:12
[SPEAKER_01]: One final thought and then in the end I'm going to have you make the final case for why we should adopt this practice of talking to strangers.
30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you've studied this thing that we all have experienced, which is the friend who feels like a stranger.
30:27
[SPEAKER_01]: This person is not a stranger.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know them very well, they know you very well, but they feel more like a stranger now, which is tangential to your work.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's related, it's like next year work.
30:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I did some work on this with a friend of mine who reached out on January 1st.
30:41
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a reason that I remember that because we've done a lot of research together as for friends, but also research collaborators.
30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And she sent me a message on January 1st saying, you know, hey, we haven't been in touch for a while.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's set up a call.
30:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I have this great idea that we could start to study together.
30:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was kind of a meta thing because the thing she wanted to study was
31:00
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that she felt, we'd fallen out of touch and she wanted to reconnect, but she felt awkward about doing it.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And so January 1st was like a good excuse for reaching out because it was like the new year.
31:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, you could say happy new year.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's also, there's this research on like fresh starts.
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, I don't know, the day of your birthday, it's like a clean slate afterwards.
31:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though that's kind of arbitrary.
31:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Or the first day of the month feels like a clean start.
31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So it feels like there's more of a reason or is more okay to do something.
31:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, we started studying this, you know, how many people feel like they have a friend that they've lost touch with, and it was almost everybody.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I could tell you that, Tom.
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, everyone.
31:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But we said okay, how willing are you to retouch that person both now and in the future and people are like I don't know and I think it taps into a lot of the same kind of fears that we have about talking to strangers what if I don't have anything in common with them anymore what if they don't want to hear from me all these kind of things we get in our head so first thing we had to do is just establish is it that you don't want to get in touch with this person but it's not that because people will said oh I'd be very happy if they reached out to me
32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: They just don't want to be the one doing the reaching out because the risk comes in, right?
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we really wanted to fix this.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we tried a bunch of different things where we gave people plenty of time, like we were paying them for their time to do this study.
32:18
[SPEAKER_00]: We said we're going to give you some time to write the message.
32:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Choose someone you really want to reach out to who you think is going to be happy to hear from you and prompted people to do all this stuff.
32:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Still, we could not get people to do this.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a third of people would do it after all of our various attempts to nudge them in multiple ways.
32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're like, okay, what is going on here?
32:41
[SPEAKER_00]: We started to think, you know, looking at the things that people told us
32:46
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of sounds like people are thinking of these old friends more like strangers like they're worried about the same kind of things.
32:53
[SPEAKER_00]: People are about as willing to reach out to an old friend as they were to talk to a stranger and we know people don't want to talk to strangers.
32:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of telling.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we ran a study where we found that the more they felt like that old friend,
33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: seemed like a stranger the less willing they were to reach out.
33:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So it really seemed to be that this reluctance seemed to be related to feeling like I don't know this person anymore.
33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we did is to try and fix it in the end was I had done some research with talking to strangers where it seems hard to learn that talking to strangers is generally going to go well.
33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: We have one pleasant conversation and we kind of think it's an exception.
33:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I ran the study that involved people playing a scavenger hunt game, so this was just a way to get people to have multiple conversations, so they could see that the norm was that they went fairly well.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You kind of practiced, so we tried to, you know, how could we use that in terms of reaching out?
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we got people to do was practice the behavior involved in reaching out, which is often these days just sending a quick text message or something.
33:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people, we got them to spend a couple of minutes just sending text messages to their friends to people that they knew.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The friends are family, whatever.
34:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Just to practice the behavior.
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And other people, we said, just scroll on whatever.
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we tried the same things we've done before.
34:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Think of someone that you've lost touch with that you want to reach out to how about you send them a message.
34:13
[SPEAKER_00]: After having that little bit of practice, I guess, just realizing how simple it could be to send that message.
34:19
[SPEAKER_00]: More people were willing to reach out.
34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, like just getting over the fact that there has to be this giant barrier that it can just be a small thing and this research is really spoken to me now in my own life I don't know we all have these random thoughts right?
34:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be working on something in Katherine will come to mind and I'll be like I wonder how Katherine's doing I haven't been in touch for a while and so now I will literally just stop everything open my email One sentence maybe two sentences just like hey Katherine, I was thinking about you.
34:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're doing well sent before I can stop to think about it
34:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Often you get a response back, sometimes you don't, but that's not a big deal.
34:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's changed to how I act in everyday life.
34:58
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think probably what stops people.
35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the worry that it's going to be not welcome.
35:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I keep coming back to this.
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It is similar to the Stranger conversation.
35:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there an end to it?
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say the email is that goes back and forth and back.
35:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what if it turns into so they're asking me for coffee?
35:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have time for that.
35:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, sometimes there's that fear of inviting something into your life or you don't have time for it.
35:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if it is not even getting together in person, even if it is just text and emails.
35:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to know when to end a text or an email exchange.
35:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there's kind of no end to it.
35:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's its own art.
35:30
[SPEAKER_01]: But still, these are all great skills to practice and to get comfortable with being comfortable.
35:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes.
35:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I know that one of the things that sounds people,
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: is kind of what I said about the airplane example.
35:41
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be boring or it's going to go on and on.
35:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm now going to be able to get out of this conversation.
35:46
[SPEAKER_01]: You say something in the book, these are kind of my words, but with your, I felt like what you were trying to say is, yep, it might be.
35:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be boring.
35:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be long.
35:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be hard to get out of it.
35:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You might be introverted.
35:58
[SPEAKER_01]: You are saying in the book, it might be hard to get out of it, and still, you should do it.
36:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I want you to make the case.
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I say is if you like movies, for example, you watch a lot of movies you don't expect every single movie to be awesome.
36:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you're like super nerdy like me and you're reading all the reviews and you're looking all the ratings and you think you've picked the perfect movie you're never gonna like every single movie and talking to strangers kind of like that too.
36:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not gonna like every single conversation.
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I have had
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: A very small number of conversations with strangers that have literally changed my life.
36:33
[SPEAKER_00]: These are like transformative conversations.
36:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Those don't happen very often.
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not want to write a book or I'm like, you could meet a celebrity here.
36:40
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an amazing thing can happen.
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to write a book that was about these are everyday things.
36:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Tiny number of transformative ones.
36:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had a lot of conversations where I've had a laugh or I've learned something, you know, maybe someone's given me a recommendation that I've found helpful or just had a nice moment of connection.
36:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But then on average, conversations are average.
37:04
[SPEAKER_00]: but I think that they all matter because they add up to something.
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I've done this for many many years now and I think the biggest benefit is the hardest one.
37:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not as tangible as some of the other things because it puts us in a good mood and helps us feel connected.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We learn lots of things but I think this intangible benefit is just it has changed how I walk through the world.
37:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I know now from having done it hundreds of times that I could talk to pretty much anybody and have an OK conversation.
37:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And that makes me feel different about the world.
37:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes me feel safer, more trusting of other people.
37:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think of other people more positively.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just feel like I'm part of the world related to the sense of connection.
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And that just changes how I walk through the world.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It feeds into our well-being in a few different ways, so if you think about what does it mean to live a good life?
38:02
[SPEAKER_00]: That could be a life of pleasure for some people, that's the definition, for some people, it's a life of meaning.
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Researchers have realized there might be this third dimension, so it might be a life full of rich experiences.
38:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not always an easy life, but it is one way to live a life of purpose for people.
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Talking strangers takes all those boxes.
38:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It is enjoyable for the most part.
38:24
[SPEAKER_00]: People don't expect it to be, but I can tell you from all these research studies that I've run.
38:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It is so much more enjoyable than you expected to be.
38:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Not every time, but a lot of the time.
38:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Ticks that sort of pleasure box.
38:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a source of novelty.
38:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We can control our life so that we know exactly where we're going and who we're talking to and we plan everything.
38:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's important to us to have novelty and unexpected and spontaneity talking to strangers gives you that.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's partly why it feels scary sometimes because you can't predict it and you can't control it.
38:54
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's helpful to deal with that because life
38:58
[SPEAKER_00]: is uncertain.
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: We'd like to think we can control things and we can control things to some extent, but not everything.
39:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's helpful to confront the fact that there is uncertainty and that's okay.
39:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We can get through that and when you realize that it opens the possibilities for your life a little bit.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, maybe I could give that a try.
39:16
[SPEAKER_00]: The third thing is the life of meaning, and we've talked a little bit about kindness earlier.
39:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Having done this, I've seen not all the time, but every once in a while, you have a conversation.
39:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And someone says, thank you for talking to me.
39:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see that you've made a difference just by acknowledging that person, just by saying hello.
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And on the flip side, I've been that person.
39:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I tell a story in the book about this one day, I don't even know what was going on.
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But I was just like really, really upset, almost in tears.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: My daily walk because it helps and I was turning.
39:49
[SPEAKER_00]: My head was spinning and I saw this woman and she was pushing a baby carriage.
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: She just looked at me and she smiled.
39:56
[SPEAKER_00]: That was it.
39:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like I felt instantly better.
39:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that story.
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It changed, you know, the spinning in my head.
40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like throwing a spanner in the work.
40:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was just like this spark.
40:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, hang on a second.
40:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just a reminder that the world is bigger than whatever the little
40:15
[SPEAKER_00]: things are going to be okay, life is going to go on.
40:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That woman gave me that moment and I'd like to think I trust that I can give that moment to other people as well and that feels incredibly meaningful to me, especially when it feels like life is just really dark and scary and I feel like helpless to do anything about that.
40:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But I can talk to a stranger and give them that moment of shared humanity and that feels really powerful and meaningful to me.
40:44
[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Jillian, thank you so much for being here.
40:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's an important thing for people to consider incorporating into their life, talking to strangers.
40:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm glad you're doing this work and this research.
40:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you being here.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
40:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for this opportunity.
40:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so excited about talking to strangers.
41:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something that I've come to later in life.
41:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the zeal of a convert just wanting to share.
41:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's meant so much to me and I want to pass that along and give it to other people as well.
41:12
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a stranger, evangelist.
41:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a really exactly.
41:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope Jillian was able to convince you.
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she convinced me.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm going to have a better attitude of Trader Joe's and on airplanes, and just generally, it's good to keep in mind that we are people who do need to talk to other people and it's good practice, it's good for its own reasons.
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Come back next week when our friendships are going well, and when our society is going well, because we're talking to each other.
41:37
[SPEAKER_01]: We are happier all of them.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.