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Joe Kowalski - Documentary Filmmaker and Editor, Substance · Next Act with Jeff Ornstein

• 0:02
  Jeff Ornstein: Hi everyone and welcome to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein.
• 0:05
  Jeff Ornstein: I am Jeff, and on this show we celebrate people on the cusp of greatness.
• 0:09
  Jeff Ornstein: Those building on past successes in some of the curious and inventive and sometimes unexpected ways they have achieved those and stepping into moments that could define their legacy.
• 0:20
  Jeff Ornstein: We'll talk about current projects, lessons learned, and the extraordinary opportunities ahead.
• 0:26
  Jeff Ornstein: So the best is yet to come.
• 0:28
  Jeff Ornstein: Hi! Joe Kowalski is with us today, and he's a Cleveland-blaced documentary filmmaker, director, and editor whose work has been featured in Hollywood.com, Smithsonian Magazine, and Animation Magazine.
• 0:42
  Jeff Ornstein: With a career-spanning feature films, TV series, and hundreds of shorts, Joe brings stories to life with creativity and precision.
• 0:50
  Jeff Ornstein: He's the director and co-editor of the upcoming documentary Micronations and has worked on projects like Mr.
• 0:56
  Jeff Ornstein: Football.
• 0:57
  Jeff Ornstein: Welcome to the show, Joe.
• 0:58
  Jeff Ornstein: Thanks for having me.
• 1:00
  Jeff Ornstein: Okay, it's I'm delighted to have you, and your story is so rich in history.
• 1:04
  Jeff Ornstein: And not only that, I mean, coming from Cleveland, which is such an artistic town, I mean, there's so many creative minds there going all at once.
• 1:13
  Jeff Ornstein: It must be easy just to walk down the block and meet a creative down there.
• 1:18
  Joe Kowalski: We definitely export a lot of creatives.
• 1:20
  Joe Kowalski: I s I swear, like everywhere I travel, you're from Cleveland too.
• 1:23
  Joe Kowalski: It's like it's just one of those things.
• 1:25
  Joe Kowalski: It's awesome.
• 1:26
  Jeff Ornstein: That's great.
• 1:27
  Jeff Ornstein: So I wanted to speak with you a little bit about as much as I can that you've done because Matt shared so many interesting little stories.
• 1:35
  Jeff Ornstein: But told me a little bit about Poge Joe Productions that you created in 2010.
• 1:41
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, that was actually the name of my YouTube channel that I started when I was a teenager.
• 1:45
  Joe Kowalski: So that was sort of the it was based off a family nickname, actually, that just sort of blossomed into me roping everybody in my life into being in a video in some way or other, whether it was my siblings, extended family, friends at school, people that my dad knew, just like literally anybody who I could rope into it.
• 2:04
  Joe Kowalski: Right.
• 2:05
  Joe Kowalski: So yeah, that was started as a hobby.
• 2:07
  Jeff Ornstein: I mean, obviously the passion just grew and grew because here you are now with all these other projects under your belt.
• 2:14
  Jeff Ornstein: I understand you've also worked on news editing at WEWS TV and various TV series and documentaries.
• 2:22
  Jeff Ornstein: So you're a writer and uh editor, and do you direct?
• 2:28
  Joe Kowalski: I do, yeah.
• 2:29
  Joe Kowalski: Um, so the thing I'm working on right now is the the documentary you mentioned, Micronations.
• 2:36
  Joe Kowalski: We have some other things that we're in stages of of looking at.
• 2:39
  Joe Kowalski: But and I've I've I've made some projects on my own, but Micronations is really probably the biggest thing I've had an opportunity to really get my hands on in that way.
• 2:48
  Jeff Ornstein: Right.
• 2:48
  Jeff Ornstein: I looked a little bit about micronations.
• 2:50
  Jeff Ornstein: It seems, I mean, heavy.
• 2:52
  Jeff Ornstein: The it was abbreviated, I guess, on IMDB, but um can you explain a little bit about that?
• 2:58
  Jeff Ornstein: Because I think most of the viewers won't know what micronations really means.
• 3:03
  Jeff Ornstein: I didn't.
• 3:04
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:05
  Joe Kowalski: So it's essentially people who start their own countries.
• 3:08
  Joe Kowalski: And, you know, that concept alone is a little baffling to a lot of folks, but I guess you could call them hobbyist world leaders.
• 3:14
  Joe Kowalski: There are people literally all over the world who decide that they want to create their own semi-sovereign kind of situations.
• 3:22
  Joe Kowalski: When you say that, it sounds like the worst case scenario.
• 3:26
  Joe Kowalski: But the people that we meet in the film aren't the people who are, you know, they're not causing problems.
• 3:31
  Joe Kowalski: For really for them, it's a lot of cases, it's almost more of like a thought experiment or a sort of like an artistic project.
• 3:38
  Joe Kowalski: And with different levels of seriousness that people give to it.
• 3:40
  Joe Kowalski: Like in most cases, people aren't, you know, trying to avoid the laws of their community.
• 3:46
  Joe Kowalski: They're just trying to come up with new ideas on how to like if you were in charge of things, how would you do things differently?
• 3:53
  Joe Kowalski: And in some cases, people come up with their own constitutions or the situations that their citizens can participate in, whether it's online or whether it's in person.
• 4:02
  Joe Kowalski: So in the film, we actually go to a convention where a lot of these folks get together in one place called Microcon.
• 4:09
  Joe Kowalski: So we go to a few of these in the film, and it's it's it's really, really fun to be there.
• 4:14
  Joe Kowalski: I mean, people dress up in regalia and have ball gowns and uh military outfits, and you know, it's like their their chance to show off their nation to the other people there.
• 4:24
  Joe Kowalski: And so it's this really kind of fun and eclectic look at this microcosm of a community.
• 4:31
  Jeff Ornstein: It's very cool.
• 4:32
  Jeff Ornstein: So would you say like the impetus for these folks to say I want to create a micronation is out of a sense of altruism?
• 4:39
  Jeff Ornstein: Like they're trying to say, how do I make a better world?
• 4:42
  Joe Kowalski: I think that's definitely a huge part of it.
• 4:44
  Joe Kowalski: We actually meet some people in the film who have created nonprofits out of their micronation.
• 4:50
  Joe Kowalski: So, for example, there's a there's a fellow named Travis who has a nation called West Artica, and he set up a nonprofit because he can't literally go to the area of Antarctica that he claimed, but he wants to still uh protect the ecology there through the the funds that he raises for it.
• 5:08
  Joe Kowalski: Um but also I think in a lot of cases it's also people maybe disagreeing with how the things uh are run within wherever they're at and wanting to sort of have a public critique of that in a way.
• 5:22
  Joe Kowalski: Or sometimes it's literally just for fun.
• 5:24
  Joe Kowalski: Like we met a lot of people who are just teenagers who are like, I want to have my own country.
• 5:28
  Joe Kowalski: That sounds great.
• 5:29
  Joe Kowalski: And then you know, it's fun for them to come up with flags and it's fun for them to, you know, pretend to get into little spats with other uh teenagers micronations and stuff like that, you know.
• 5:38
  Joe Kowalski: So everyone has their own reason why, why they've been part of this community.
• 5:42
  Jeff Ornstein: That's very cool.
• 5:43
  Jeff Ornstein: And I have to say, before I learned about you, I didn't even know such a thing existed.
• 5:47
  Jeff Ornstein: And I think it shows a lot of creativity on the people who want to like say, I'm gonna put effort forth to establish something that doesn't exist just yet, you know, for whatever the reason is, whether it's to wear regalia or to save an ec ecosystem or to think of a better, you know, build a better mouse trap, if you will.
• 6:06
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, people have asked me, they said, Well, are you gonna come up with your own now that you've been part of all this?
• 6:10
  Joe Kowalski: And I kind of say the same thing you said, where it's like the level of creativity that so much people put into this, it can be very time consuming.
• 6:17
  Joe Kowalski: I mean, that's part of the reason why I haven't been tempted because I'm just in awe.
• 6:21
  Joe Kowalski: Like we we met up someone who not only had come up with their own language, but they came up with the ability to write it out and the cursive version of that language.
• 6:31
  Joe Kowalski: Like that's a level that I feel like I'm more of a spectator in terms of uh not being able to uh come up with something equivalent.
• 6:39
  Jeff Ornstein: That's like Harry Potter creative.
• 6:41
  Jeff Ornstein: Yeah, it's it's remarkable.
• 6:43
  Jeff Ornstein: Well, that's so cool.
• 6:44
  Jeff Ornstein: All right, so now I have a much better understanding of micronations, and I'm gonna, you know what?
• 6:48
  Jeff Ornstein: You've piqued my interest.
• 6:49
  Jeff Ornstein: I'm gonna do a little bit more research and understand all the different kinds of people that come together for whatever reasons and want to create one.
• 6:56
  Jeff Ornstein: Cool.
• 6:56
  Jeff Ornstein: The story about Mr.
• 6:58
  Jeff Ornstein: Football really hit a chord with me.
• 7:01
  Jeff Ornstein: I too graduated from a high school, and in my graduating senior year, we were number one in the state.
• 7:07
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah.
• 7:08
  Jeff Ornstein: So and I was not an athlete, but I was a spectator, and it's such a unifying thing for a graduating class.
• 7:17
  Jeff Ornstein: You have so much pride.
• 7:18
  Jeff Ornstein: Yeah.
• 7:19
  Jeff Ornstein: And yet the story behind Mr.
• 7:21
  Jeff Ornstein: Football takes this horrible turn and how it must have affected not just the individuals immediately affected by it, but the whole community.
• 7:30
  Jeff Ornstein: Can you share a little bit about what your experience was when you were working on that?
• 7:35
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, so me and my buddy Tom, who's actually behind me right now, were the two primary editors on that film.
• 7:41
  Joe Kowalski: And when we were first introduced to it, I didn't know if it was something that I felt like I could get a grip around because I'm not like a huge sports guy personally.
• 7:52
  Joe Kowalski: No offense to anyone who is.
• 7:54
  Joe Kowalski: But once we started talking with the producer Jim, Jim McCarthy, who was the the captain of the football team at that time, um I realized that for him, telling this story was an act of healing that he wanted to ignite with his team members.
• 8:09
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, there was a situation where at the height of their popularity and them getting state championship.
• 8:17
  Joe Kowalski: Unfortunately, they had a team member who passed away, and a few of the other team members were being drawn into court over it.
• 8:25
  Joe Kowalski: Uh, you'll have to see the film to see what happens next.
• 8:28
  Joe Kowalski: But still, they went from being on the on the top of the world to just being ripped apart by by people they met, by strangers they met, by the local press.
• 8:37
  Joe Kowalski: Um, you know, just so just without people knowing the full story of really how that could have happened and how it could have built into such a thing.
• 8:44
  Joe Kowalski: So for us to see how Jim, that team captain, wanted to approach that story, that was really what made me confident that we could we could help him tell it.
• 8:56
  Joe Kowalski: Because for a lot of those guys, you know, this was something that happened their senior year that was really traumatic for them, and they just had never talked about it since then.
• 9:04
  Joe Kowalski: I mean, they had interviews with some of the coaches and teachers at the time who had also just never talked about it.
• 9:09
  Joe Kowalski: It was just sort of just, you know, this is just this terrible thing that we're gonna try to move past.
• 9:13
  Joe Kowalski: And so for, you know, 20 plus years later to give those guys a chance to talk about it, to remember their friend, to have an have another chance to tell this story and, you know, kind of reignite that that brotherhood that they they care about so much was really, really meaningful for us to work on.
• 9:30
  Jeff Ornstein: So that's a very powerful story, and especially like you say, giving these individuals that cathartic experience 20 years later.
• 9:39
  Jeff Ornstein: Now, there are directors and editors and writers that specialize in crime.
• 9:44
  Jeff Ornstein: Did it make you say, you know, there are more stories out there that need to be told that are so, you know, heart-wrenching that pique your interest to do more like that?
• 9:54
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, I've had some experience in true crime.
• 9:57
  Joe Kowalski: And for me, I would prefer to sort of redirect away from those stories.
• 10:01
  Joe Kowalski: I understand the fascination with the genre.
• 10:05
  Joe Kowalski: I understand why, I mean, even if you go back to before movies, like if you go to newspapers in the 1800s talking about horrifying murders, that there's always that allure to it.
• 10:15
  Joe Kowalski: But the reason I liked working on Mr.
• 10:18
  Joe Kowalski: Football is that even though from the outside it could seem kind of like a true crime story, uh, there was still that emotional depth that is really appealing to me.
• 10:25
  Joe Kowalski: Because I think sometimes it can be easy to sort of flatline a story into a very, very simple, you know, one-dimensional kind of characters.
• 10:34
  Joe Kowalski: And I feel like there are some people who do true crime who are really good at having that nuance.
• 10:40
  Joe Kowalski: But in terms of my interests, like I like telling stories that are maybe a little bit more, maybe poking prod your brain a little bit more than just a simple good, bad kind of clear-cut story, I guess.
• 10:51
  Jeff Ornstein: At heart, you're a storyteller.
• 10:53
  Jeff Ornstein: Like that's what that's what gets you up out of bed out of the morning, and you know, that's what you know, your juices are always flowing.
• 11:00
  Jeff Ornstein: And what's the story you want to tell, and how do you want to tell it?
• 11:03
  Jeff Ornstein: So what is a story that's sort of percolating right now that's got your interest, like you know, that you're thinking this is a story that needs to be told, or I want it, I think it needs to be told.
• 11:16
  Joe Kowalski: I guess I I don't know if I feel comfortable sharing any of that yet.
• 11:19
  Joe Kowalski: There's a few ideas I'm fouling around, but still kind of forming.
• 11:23
  Joe Kowalski: And and it that's just those long gestation kind of things that uh, you know, a lot of creatives, I'm sure like yourself also can relate to.
• 11:31
  Joe Kowalski: I mean, I'm sure this podcast didn't just happen overnight, you know, is something that you sort of built upon.
• 11:36
  Joe Kowalski: And and so I guess when I'm feeling more ready to talk about those ideas, I'd be happy to do another interview.
• 11:41
  Jeff Ornstein: Okay, no, that's totally reasonable.
• 11:43
  Jeff Ornstein: And I'm sure like any storyteller, you don't just have one story going on in your head at once.
• 11:47
  Jeff Ornstein: You probably have a whole bunch in various stages of like development and curiosity and so on and so forth.
• 11:54
  Jeff Ornstein: Now, you've also had the good fortune of working with some pretty big names.
• 11:59
  Jeff Ornstein: What's that been like?
• 12:00
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, I mean, it really kind of blossomed from doing YouTube stuff.
• 12:04
  Joe Kowalski: I think the ones that you had bookmarked uh included Christopher Lloyd and John Green.
• 12:09
  Joe Kowalski: And in a lot of cases, you know, those are situations that I had to really throw myself into in order to get, like, for example, for John Green, the New York Times bestselling author, we literally found out where a production that he was on would be filming, and we drove there just to see if there was any chance he would come outside.
• 12:29
  Joe Kowalski: And he did.
• 12:30
  Joe Kowalski: And we ended up talking with him, and he was in a video with us and all this stuff.
• 12:33
  Joe Kowalski: So I guess that's always been a bit of my personality is just like willing to go for it.
• 12:38
  Jeff Ornstein: I think that's fantastic.
• 12:39
  Jeff Ornstein: I mean, it's you know, it's the risk takers that, you know, get get through.
• 12:44
  Jeff Ornstein: And, you know, you you can't you can't dance if you don't go to the dance.
• 12:48
  Jeff Ornstein: Yeah.
• 12:48
  Jeff Ornstein: So I mean, you know, bravo to you.
• 12:50
  Jeff Ornstein: I mean, go out there and and and get in the front of the line if you can.
• 12:54
  Jeff Ornstein: I was recently in a feature film, and it was directed by a woman who worked in Hollywood for the big studios for many, many years, and she kind of left it with big names, Elizabeth Taylor and Vanessa Redgrave and blah, blah, blah.
• 13:10
  Jeff Ornstein: And she gave it all up to do smaller indies, you know, the one to three million dollar films.
• 13:16
  Jeff Ornstein: And I asked her, you know, oh, you know, you went from Hollywood to like these things, it's a much more boutique um project in the industry.
• 13:25
  Jeff Ornstein: And she had explained, you know, in Hollywood, you could work on a project for years and years and years, and then it gets shelved.
• 13:32
  Jeff Ornstein: And I just love to make movies.
• 13:34
  Jeff Ornstein: And I felt that if I went back to these smaller indie projects, I could make a movie a year.
• 13:41
  Jeff Ornstein: And that's what I want to do.
• 13:43
  Jeff Ornstein: And I don't I don't want to put all this time into it.
• 13:45
  Jeff Ornstein: So now you've had the opportunity to do both.
• 13:49
  Jeff Ornstein: What's your experience, Ben?
• 13:52
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, I the the whole industry is in such a strange kind of shifting waters right now, you know.
• 13:58
  Joe Kowalski: So especially now that it seems like streaming money that was being funneled for quite a while is a little more tapered down and less people are going to the theaters and stuff.
• 14:09
  Joe Kowalski: And so for what she's doing to like be part of those, you know, one to three million dollar budget, I I I'm so excited to hear that there are people who still really want to invest in that because right now it seems like your choice is typically between do you want to be part of a giant blockbuster or spending hundreds of millions of dollars, or do you want to be part of something that's as shoestring as we can possibly make it?
• 14:29
  Joe Kowalski: And so we we need to have those stories that can fit in the middle and that can still be, you know, very profitable.
• 14:36
  Joe Kowalski: And I hope people continue to take chances on those kinds of stories.
• 14:40
  Joe Kowalski: I'm part of a production company here in Cleveland called Substance, and we're kind of just starting to get going on a lot of projects.
• 14:48
  Joe Kowalski: And so there's there's this feeling of excitement that we're able to sort of tell these big stories with maybe tighter budgets than maybe what Hollywood's used to, but it's the kind of stories that we believe in, and uh my boss Adam really feels that can be successful.
• 15:06
  Joe Kowalski: Right.
• 15:07
  Jeff Ornstein: And the shame is that you know, Hollywood sort of created this problem for itself by making these $100 million films and then going to the movies, and it's a $15 bucket of popcorn and a $9 Coke, and it's $40 for the babysitter.
• 15:24
  Jeff Ornstein: And it's a shame because some films are meant to be seen on the big screen, but streaming has opened up the gates for actors to work more frequently with lesser time commitments and more, you know, reasonable budgets and get more art out there and get more art more actors working.
• 15:43
  Jeff Ornstein: But it's still a very tricky time.
• 15:45
  Jeff Ornstein: Tricky for the big studios, and it's tricky for the small the smaller guys, because of course you have to have an ear to listen.
• 15:51
  Jeff Ornstein: I think that's fascinating.
• 15:53
  Jeff Ornstein: So the projects that you're working on now that you were just talking about with your boss, the two projects we've spoken about so far are uh, you know, nonfiction, if you will.
• 16:04
  Jeff Ornstein: Do you pursue any things that are are fiction?
• 16:07
  Jeff Ornstein: Can you tell us anything about those kinds of projects that interests you?
• 16:11
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, I I do still uh work on narrative stuff.
• 16:14
  Joe Kowalski: And I have uh, again, another, like we were saying, kind of back of the mind idea for a narrative piece I'd like to do.
• 16:22
  Joe Kowalski: Um, I guess with documentaries, I I kind of surprised myself myself by how much I enjoyed that aspect of it.
• 16:30
  Joe Kowalski: And I think part of it's because a lot of my uh biggest experiences have come from editing.
• 16:36
  Joe Kowalski: So there's something about like that collecting of images and and phrases and moments, and that's that's really satisfying to me in a way with narrative stuff, you have to invent all of that.
• 16:47
  Joe Kowalski: There's something that uh Andrew, our DP of Micronations, said where he's like, when you find a really great location for a documentary, it's like free production value.
• 16:57
  Joe Kowalski: Like you didn't have to construct any of this, it's just there.
• 16:59
  Joe Kowalski: You show up and you're you're participating, and it's your job to help capture that feeling or capture that idea.
• 17:04
  Joe Kowalski: So it's not to say that I'm not interested in continuing to do more narrative stuff, and that's still, you know, there's still things I do that relate to that.
• 17:12
  Joe Kowalski: Um I'm editing a narrative feature right now for a friend, but it's just something where I guess I didn't I didn't expect to fall in love with documentaries as much as I have, and I think that's where the ideas that get me most excited are starting to kind of continue to funnel.
• 17:26
  Joe Kowalski: Right.
• 17:27
  Jeff Ornstein: Well, I the director I was speaking about told me once, you know, there are three films.
• 17:32
  Jeff Ornstein: There's the script you read, there's the script you s you You film.
• 17:36
  Jeff Ornstein: Thank you very much, brain free.
• 17:38
  Jeff Ornstein: And then there's the movie the editor hands back to you.
• 17:42
  Jeff Ornstein: And they could be very different products.
• 17:46
  Jeff Ornstein: So the editor plays such a key role in what's the final artistic statement we're saying.
• 17:52
  Jeff Ornstein: So it doesn't surprise me that you would get your juices get flowing because most editors, I mean, they obviously want to uh reflect the director's wishes and the writer's w thoughts, but they bring so much to the table in terms of the final product.
• 18:08
  Jeff Ornstein: So I have to ask you, if you were to create a documentary about something that someone might think was strange or trivial or oddball, if you will, what would it be?
• 18:20
  Jeff Ornstein: And why would you want to do it?
• 18:22
  Joe Kowalski: If you don't mind me saying it again, I guess Micronations kind of fulfills that for me.
• 18:26
  Joe Kowalski: That's true, it is kind of odd.
• 18:27
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah.
• 18:28
  Joe Kowalski: All right.
• 18:29
  Joe Kowalski: We also have there was a segment of the film that we were not able to include that we've now spun off into its own short film, which we're hoping to also get into festivals, and we've been in the process of submitting all this stuff.
• 18:41
  Joe Kowalski: Um, and that one's called Prettier and Whittier.
• 18:43
  Joe Kowalski: And the premise of that is that there's an apartment building in a small town of Whittier, Alaska, where almost the entire town lives in that one building.
• 18:53
  Joe Kowalski: It's a remote community in that you have to literally only go through this one tunnel to get there.
• 19:01
  Joe Kowalski: And you take turns between the cars and the trains that go through the tunnel.
• 19:04
  Joe Kowalski: So you have to wait like half an hour if you miss your shot to go in.
• 19:08
  Joe Kowalski: We originally were uh pursuing that as a segment of the film because I felt like there were elements of that story that fit in with some of the micronation um work that we were covering.
• 19:18
  Joe Kowalski: But now I'm hoping that can still kind of live as its as its own piece because it didn't quite fit in the way I hoped it to.
• 19:24
  Joe Kowalski: But yeah, that's another like maybe strange or considered very like low-key kind of idea that we turned into its own little story.
• 19:32
  Jeff Ornstein: I think it's a fascinating little story.
• 19:34
  Jeff Ornstein: There's a story there, and there are players within that building, and I think there'd definitely be an audience for a story like that.
• 19:41
  Jeff Ornstein: We're we're we're just about out of time.
• 19:44
  Jeff Ornstein: So I I did want to thank you for taking time out of your busy day and sharing, you know, some of your really valuable experiences and these unique kinds of artistic pieces you're working on.
• 19:54
  Jeff Ornstein: I'm really impressed, and I'm gonna do my homework on Micronations More because you really piqued my interest.
• 20:00
  Jeff Ornstein: And I'm gonna set a Google alert for Whittier Alaska.
• 20:04
  Jeff Ornstein: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:05
  Jeff Ornstein: Because I think that's a fascinating story that needs to be told.
• 20:09
  Jeff Ornstein: Oh, wonderful.
• 20:10
  Joe Kowalski: All right.
• 20:10
  Joe Kowalski: Well, good luck to you.
• 20:11
  Joe Kowalski: And if you, you know, come up with a nation of your own, let me know.
• 20:15
  Joe Kowalski: Yeah, I can I can talk to the others.
• 20:17
  Joe Kowalski: Okay, good.
• 20:18
  Joe Kowalski: I got a lot of my hand.
• 20:19
  Jeff Ornstein: My plant's a little bit full right now, but I I you know what?
• 20:22
  Jeff Ornstein: You piqued my interest for sure.
• 20:24
  Joe Kowalski: Well, thank you so much.
• 20:26
  Jeff Ornstein: Thanks for tuning in to Next Act with Jeff Orenstein.
• 20:29
  Jeff Ornstein: Follow, subscribe, and stay connected to your favorite socials at www.nextdackpodcast.com.
• 20:36
  Jeff Ornstein: Keep chasing your next act.
• 20:38
  Jeff Ornstein: The best is yet to come.