Latest / All Bodies. All Foods. / 37. “Did I Say the Right Thing?”: Building a Body-Positive Home with Zoë Bisbing, MSW, LCSW

Transcript

37. “Did I Say the Right Thing?”: Building a Body-Positive Home with Zoë Bisbing, MSW, LCSW · All Bodies. All Foods.

• 0:01
  Hey,
• 0:01
  I'm Sam.
• 0:02
  Hi,
• 0:02
  I'm Ashley.
• 0:04
  And you're listening to All Bodies All Foods presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.
• 0:09
  We want to create a space for all bodies to come together authentically and purposefully to discuss various areas that impact us on a cultural and relational level.
• 0:19
  We believe that all bodies and all foods are welcome.
• 0:23
  We would love for you to join us on this journey.
• 0:26
  Let's learn together.
• 0:29
  Welcome back to another episode of All Bodies,
• 0:32
  All Foods.
• 0:32
  I'm Sam and I'm here with my co-host Ashley and we have a very special guest today.
• 0:39
  So many parents and caregivers desperately want their child to have a good relationship with food and a good relationship with their body.
• 0:47
  And it makes sense.
• 0:48
  So many parents want these things for their Children,
• 0:50
  disordered,
• 0:51
  eating,
• 0:51
  dieting and body dissatisfaction are all major risk factors for eating disorders and eating disorders are serious.
• 0:57
  They're the second deadliest psychiatric disorder in the DS M five.
• 1:01
  But so many parents often confess that when their kid comes home one day and says mom,
• 1:07
  dad,
• 1:07
  I hate my body,
• 1:09
  their minds go blank.
• 1:11
  They question their instincts and worry.
• 1:13
  They didn't say or do the right thing.
• 1:16
  That's exactly why we invited Zoe to the show today,
• 1:20
  Zoe Bisbing MS WL CS W is a licensed psychotherapist speaker and content creator.
• 1:27
  She is the director of Body Positive Therapy,
• 1:29
  NYC and Body Positive Home.
• 1:32
  Formally the Full Bloom Project,
• 1:35
  an educational resource offering workshops and image workouts for the whole family.
• 1:41
  She loves teaching parents and professionals how to creatively build spaces where Children of all ages sizes and gender expressions can naturally boost immunity to our appearance,
• 1:52
  obsessed culture and decrease risk for disordered eating and body image injury.
• 1:57
  You can follow her on Instagram at my body positive home for bite sized body positive basics and body image.
• 2:04
  Hacks.
• 2:06
  Zoe holds a master of social work from New York University,
• 2:09
  a Bachelor of Arts from Smith College and a certification in family based treatment from the Institute for Child and adolescent eating disorders.
• 2:18
  A native New Yorker Zoe lives in Manhattan with her husband,
• 2:21
  three Children and two dogs.
• 2:24
  Zoe.
• 2:24
  Welcome to the show.
• 2:26
  Thank you.
• 2:27
  It's like listening to your,
• 2:29
  it's like a eulogy.
• 2:33
  But uh yeah,
• 2:35
  thank you so much for having me.
• 2:37
  I,
• 2:37
  you know,
• 2:38
  it's a topic near and dear to my heart and I love connecting with other eating disorder professionals about you know,
• 2:45
  the front end,
• 2:46
  right?
• 2:46
  What we can do to Yeah,
• 2:49
  optimally put ourselves out of business,
• 2:51
  I always say.
• 2:51
  Right.
• 2:52
  Right.
• 2:52
  Exactly.
• 2:53
  I think this episode will be so helpful for parents.
• 2:56
  I cannot tell you how many parents through the years they find out,
• 3:00
  I'm a therapist for eating disorders.
• 3:02
  And one of the first things they ask me,
• 3:03
  they start listing all the ways they think they've messed up,
• 3:06
  you know?
• 3:06
  Oh,
• 3:07
  I said this.
• 3:07
  What do you think?
• 3:08
  I should have said?
• 3:09
  And that's when I thought to myself,
• 3:11
  we have got to have Zoe on this show.
• 3:13
  But I would love to hear a little more about you Zoe as,
• 3:17
  as a clinician,
• 3:18
  but also as a person.
• 3:20
  What led you to the mental health field and why body image and eating disorders?
• 3:26
  Yeah.
• 3:26
  So I had been a classically trained dancer and like professional child.
• 3:32
  I had performed as a kid here in New York City and I was very dedicated to becoming a ballet dancer that was like my one track goal and through my experience,
• 3:44
  uh you know,
• 3:44
  like it's no secret that eating disorders are a rampant in dance community.
• 3:50
  And so I think I had a sense that I knew a lot about disordered eating and body image issues from my,
• 3:57
  my very tiny corner of the classical ballet world.
• 4:02
  And then I took ballet as far as my body would let it take me and um around,
• 4:08
  you know,
• 4:09
  in college,
• 4:09
  I sort dabbled in other forms of dance and theater.
• 4:12
  And um I couldn't quite find my way.
• 4:16
  I couldn't quite figure out exactly what I wanted,
• 4:18
  but I had always thought maybe one day after I retired from my ballet career as an older person,
• 4:25
  I would become a therapist.
• 4:26
  So in my own soul searching to figure out like,
• 4:28
  what am I gonna be when I grow up now that I'm not a dancer anymore?
• 4:32
  Um I thought maybe I'll go become a therapist.
• 4:35
  And I think I thought I knew a lot about disordered eating and body image issues because of dance.
• 4:41
  So it sort of informed the path that I kind of took within the social work space.
• 4:48
  But then when I worked on an inpatient unit in an actual eating disorder,
• 4:53
  psychiatric unit,
• 4:55
  I learned what eating disorders really are.
• 4:58
  And,
• 4:59
  you know,
• 5:00
  I,
• 5:00
  I was humbled to realize that I,
• 5:02
  I think I had a very basic understanding as it may pertain to,
• 5:08
  you know,
• 5:08
  sports that have a unique demand on bodies,
• 5:12
  certainly disordered eating.
• 5:14
  But the kind of psychiatric,
• 5:18
  profoundly,
• 5:19
  life threatening illness,
• 5:20
  it can be,
• 5:22
  this was what I learned and then realized especially as a social worker on the unit,
• 5:26
  I was doing a lot of family work and I found that really um kind of amazing.
• 5:32
  I loved the educational aspect of it.
• 5:34
  Um And so from there,
• 5:36
  I mean,
• 5:37
  if,
• 5:37
  unfortunately,
• 5:38
  if you're interested even a little bit in eating disorders,
• 5:41
  I think you can have a very successful career because sadly,
• 5:45
  there are a lot of them and I think one thing led to another and um a lot of my work as a therapist,
• 5:52
  working with adults and young Children and teens with eating disorders,
• 5:56
  drove my interest in prevention work because it's just so damn hard um to beat these illnesses as you know,
• 6:05
  and uh especially when I became a parent,
• 6:07
  I think it all sort of came together and uh at the time,
• 6:11
  the full bloom project was born,
• 6:12
  which has now since evolved into body positive Home.
• 6:17
  Yeah,
• 6:18
  thanks Zoe.
• 6:19
  So,
• 6:20
  um about your program specifically Body Positive Home.
• 6:24
  Um I would love to hear more about that.
• 6:28
  What,
• 6:29
  what does that mean?
• 6:30
  How can we know that we have a body positive home?
• 6:33
  And I'm thinking of this through the lens of um so like all three of us were therapists on here and we've discussed body positivity,
• 6:42
  we've discussed body neutrality,
• 6:44
  body respect,
• 6:45
  kind of kind of all of these words and all of this lingo.
• 6:48
  And so what does body positive home mean?
• 6:53
  And how can we implement that?
• 6:55
  How do we know if we have that or if we don't?
• 6:59
  Yeah,
• 7:00
  many questions,
• 7:01
  many questions.
• 7:02
  Um No,
• 7:04
  but I think that's partly why I built body positive home because I think we actually all can build body positive homes so long as we understand what all of those terms mean,
• 7:14
  the ones you just mentioned.
• 7:16
  Um And,
• 7:18
  and then sort of so long as we are willing to kind of,
• 7:21
  you know,
• 7:21
  grab the,
• 7:22
  the,
• 7:22
  the template that I'm hopefully offering people and then sort of go from there.
• 7:27
  Right.
• 7:27
  So,
• 7:28
  um the idea for body positive home,
• 7:31
  when I,
• 7:31
  when I say prevention,
• 7:32
  you know,
• 7:33
  my passion for sort of quote,
• 7:35
  preventing eating disorders and I always quote it because like,
• 7:38
  we can't really prevent them.
• 7:39
  And for some families,
• 7:41
  early intervention,
• 7:42
  early detection is the prevention,
• 7:45
  right?
• 7:45
  Like being able to notice a problem.
• 7:47
  Um,
• 7:48
  in some cases,
• 7:48
  it's gonna be to actually prevent any kind of illness from taking over for any particular kid.
• 7:53
  But body positive home for me is a value system.
• 7:59
  And that's where I think about this term body positivity.
• 8:04
  I think it's grossly misunderstood what body positivity is.
• 8:10
  And I really look at body positivity as a value system that if you believe that all bodies are good bodies and that those bodies,
• 8:20
  regardless of their size,
• 8:21
  shape,
• 8:23
  level of ability,
• 8:24
  all of it,
• 8:24
  gender expression.
• 8:25
  If you believe that all bodies are deserving of a positive relationship to their own body,
• 8:34
  you are body positive.
• 8:36
  This is different from feeling good about my body.
• 8:39
  Yes.
• 8:40
  And by the way,
• 8:43
  you know,
• 8:43
  II I appreciate some people don't really like the term body positivity bec because they prefer body liberation,
• 8:49
  for example,
• 8:51
  which you know,
• 8:52
  sort of I rejects the idea of anybody having a positive relationship with their body,
• 8:57
  given the sort of levels of oppression that exists at that face,
• 9:01
  marginalized bodies.
• 9:01
  And I totally get that,
• 9:03
  I don't think everybody has equal access to a positive relationship with their body.
• 9:10
  But if you believe that even that person who doesn't have a positive relationship with their body deserves one.
• 9:17
  I think this is body positive values in my body,
• 9:21
  positive home,
• 9:22
  right?
• 9:23
  Ie espouse body positive values,
• 9:27
  but maybe I'm hoping that my Children have um can live their lives in a sort of body neutral stance.
• 9:36
  Right?
• 9:37
  So I think body neutrality is different.
• 9:41
  But I do think in some ways a body positive home or a body positive family is hoping to raise Children that have a body positive value system,
• 9:51
  right?
• 9:51
  So that they're looking out into the world,
• 9:54
  observing body diversity and being like that's,
• 9:56
  that's awesome.
• 9:57
  And those people are facing oppression and that's wrong.
• 10:00
  And I want to try to fix that in the world,
• 10:03
  but that doesn't necessarily need to translate to and I love my body,
• 10:06
  it might hopefully translate to.
• 10:09
  I'm uh I'm accepting of it,
• 10:11
  right?
• 10:12
  And you can have body positive values and terrible body image.
• 10:15
  You can have very good body image and not such body positive values.
• 10:19
  So,
• 10:19
  so much of building a body positive home I think involves like doing a little work to learn what these terms mean,
• 10:26
  which I hope to make accessible to people.
• 10:29
  So that then from there,
• 10:31
  you can sort of figure out well,
• 10:32
  what does that mean for like the way I feed my kids or what does that mean for the way I orient to work,
• 10:40
  um,
• 10:40
  exercise or?
• 10:42
  What kind of books do I bring into my home or art?
• 10:46
  Do I hang on the walls?
• 10:47
  Like this is sort of what I like to,
• 10:49
  um,
• 10:49
  bring it to life and sort of personify it as a home.
• 10:54
  Yeah,
• 10:54
  that,
• 10:55
  I,
• 10:55
  I really appreciate that so much.
• 10:57
  I,
• 10:57
  we were talking a little bit before we started recording this and I let you know,
• 11:01
  I have a two year old and,
• 11:03
  and she's my daughter and so like even thinking of raising a young woman in culture sometimes feels a little scary for me,
• 11:12
  you know,
• 11:13
  and um but,
• 11:14
  but kind of the avenue that you're approaching this as more of the prevention and of the advocacy of like understanding what our underlying value system is and let and letting that help navigate us forward um in,
• 11:32
  in openness and accepting of all bodies because all bodies are deserving of being here and of being present and of being loved.
• 11:43
  So I just,
• 11:44
  I,
• 11:44
  I love that framework.
• 11:46
  Thank you for sharing that with us.
• 11:48
  Yeah,
• 11:49
  I'm curious,
• 11:50
  Zoe.
• 11:50
  Um when you're working with parents and you're sort of presenting this value system,
• 11:56
  are there any barriers?
• 11:58
  I'm sort of remem,
• 11:59
  you know,
• 12:00
  working as an eating disorder therapist for over a decade.
• 12:03
  I'm thinking about some of the things I I hear from parents,
• 12:06
  you know,
• 12:07
  like they want their kid to like how they look or they really link up like weight and health and they might say but,
• 12:14
  but I want,
• 12:15
  I want my kid to be healthy.
• 12:17
  I want my kid to have a healthy body.
• 12:19
  Do you ever hear this sort of?
• 12:21
  Yes.
• 12:21
  Oh my gosh.
• 12:23
  I would love to know.
• 12:24
  Yeah,
• 12:25
  I would love to know.
• 12:26
  Like,
• 12:26
  how do you,
• 12:27
  how do you help parents who are,
• 12:28
  who are saying these kind of things?
• 12:30
  Yeah.
• 12:30
  So,
• 12:31
  you know,
• 12:32
  in,
• 12:33
  in my um framework,
• 12:35
  as you say,
• 12:36
  I have these like five fundamentals and one is all bodies are good bodies.
• 12:41
  One is all foods are good food.
• 12:43
  So it's like we're a match made in heaven on this podcast.
• 12:46
  Um Sounds like our title.
• 12:49
  The third one is Health is such a tricky word.
• 12:53
  Mm Because I do believe that in order to really embody body positive values,
• 13:01
  right?
• 13:02
  Where you're really going to honor all bodies,
• 13:06
  you know,
• 13:06
  we're not just talking about all shapes and sizes,
• 13:08
  but also like levels of health,
• 13:10
  right?
• 13:10
  Levels of access to health.
• 13:12
  And I find um you know,
• 13:15
  I,
• 13:15
  I love the health at every size framework.
• 13:17
  It's definitely um embedded in my own understanding of like actual well being and moving away from health is um it certainly informs my eating disorder practice.
• 13:30
  But I find to,
• 13:33
  to your point,
• 13:34
  you know,
• 13:34
  parents don't have a lot of time and like,
• 13:38
  you know,
• 13:38
  being like read this book about health at every size and how we need to separate health from weight in order to really center a person's health and dignity.
• 13:49
  I find sometimes just saying,
• 13:51
  you know,
• 13:51
  health is such a tricky word is almost like the that that's the nugget,
• 13:58
  right?
• 13:58
  Health is tricky.
• 14:00
  I totally want my kids to have a healthy body.
• 14:04
  I know that I can't measure that based on what it looks like.
• 14:08
  Right?
• 14:09
  So I want parents to II,
• 14:10
  I will say to them,
• 14:11
  of course you do,
• 14:12
  by the way,
• 14:13
  as parents,
• 14:14
  that's our job to keep our Children healthy and safe.
• 14:17
  But I do think we need to appreciate that health is not something that's entirely in our control and that there are all sorts of um genetic realities,
• 14:29
  environmental realities,
• 14:30
  mental health intersecting with physical health.
• 14:33
  Like there's so much going on here.
• 14:36
  And I think I can say to a parent totally,
• 14:39
  I know you wanna raise a healthy child.
• 14:42
  That's why I want you to build a body positive home.
• 14:44
  But I also don't want you to moralize around health.
• 14:48
  Um and I want you really to understand the difference between weight and health because when you say,
• 14:53
  well,
• 14:53
  I want my kid to eat healthy.
• 14:55
  Well,
• 14:55
  me too.
• 14:56
  But I want us to have an expansive definition of healthy,
• 15:00
  both as it pertains to physical well being and our relationship to food.
• 15:05
  I think eating disorder therapists,
• 15:07
  I just know when I meet one like we always have this deep sense of what healthy eating means.
• 15:16
  It,
• 15:16
  it,
• 15:17
  it's a behavioral health we're looking for too.
• 15:20
  It's not healthy to be afraid to eat cookies,
• 15:24
  it's not healthy to feel out of control around cookies,
• 15:28
  right?
• 15:28
  Like we want to think about the positive eating attitude,
• 15:31
  et cetera.
• 15:32
  So,
• 15:33
  um,
• 15:33
  that can be a barrier.
• 15:35
  But I find in my experience the way I've been able to bring people in,
• 15:40
  it's to say yes,
• 15:41
  I hear you.
• 15:42
  And,
• 15:42
  and this is why actually re working on these values,
• 15:47
  right?
• 15:47
  Body positive values and moving away again from oppressive definitions of health.
• 15:53
  Why that that doesn't really serve you your child or the world.
• 15:57
  Like some people don't care,
• 15:59
  some people just don't,
• 16:00
  aren't interested,
• 16:01
  you know,
• 16:01
  they're maybe gonna follow another influencer on a juice cleanse or something.
• 16:06
  But for me,
• 16:08
  um I think bringing people in to say yes,
• 16:10
  of course.
• 16:11
  And here's how we can actually talk about health in ways that don't have unintended psychological consequences.
• 16:19
  Yeah.
• 16:19
  It's really helping parents understand that you're on the same page and have the same goals.
• 16:25
  Yeah.
• 16:26
  Yeah.
• 16:27
  I was looking through some of your workshops in your program and I love this concept of renovating your home and to make it a body positive space,
• 16:39
  you know,
• 16:40
  even,
• 16:40
  you know,
• 16:41
  renovating the different rooms,
• 16:42
  the closet,
• 16:43
  the kitchen,
• 16:44
  the living room.
• 16:45
  And I'm just so curious,
• 16:46
  would you be able to expand on that what are some ways families can renovate the space is where they live.
• 16:54
  Yeah,
• 16:54
  I mean,
• 16:55
  I think that this can be concrete and practical and also abstract.
• 17:01
  Um But for the sake of practicality,
• 17:05
  I think,
• 17:06
  for example,
• 17:07
  the closet,
• 17:08
  I think a lot of patients that I've worked with later in life um have very upsetting memories of their bodies growing,
• 17:18
  expanding,
• 17:19
  going through puberty,
• 17:20
  let's say,
• 17:21
  and out outgrowing clothing and having that be like a very shame filled experience.
• 17:27
  Um Maybe even a parent who was anxious about those body changes,
• 17:32
  not knowing how to just say something like that piece of clothing is not working for your body anymore.
• 17:39
  You deserve clothing that affirms your body.
• 17:42
  I'm gonna go get that for you.
• 17:43
  There's nothing wrong with your body.
• 17:45
  Like very few people from my,
• 17:47
  our generation heard that.
• 17:49
  Um so a a way of um renovating the closet.
• 17:54
  It's sort of like you're renovating the,
• 17:56
  the way you you're gonna relate to clothing in your family.
• 17:59
  And so I have what I call not working for my body,
• 18:03
  more bags in our closets at home that are like you could just take a target bag and write,
• 18:08
  not working for my body anymore.
• 18:10
  And it sort of puts a system in place that even before a child can feel like what's wrong with me?
• 18:17
  That my pants don't close.
• 18:19
  Not all Children are gonna have that thought,
• 18:21
  but some are I it's like oh,
• 18:23
  it just goes in this bag,
• 18:25
  you know,
• 18:25
  like it just doesn't work for my body anymore.
• 18:28
  Um And so putting a system in place and then allowing that system to support you as a parent.
• 18:36
  Um because it's normal for parents to be uncomfortable with body changes that their kids are having or anxious,
• 18:44
  especially if you have your own internalized anti fat bias and like who doesn't and having grown up in this culture.
• 18:50
  But I think that this process,
• 18:52
  by the way,
• 18:52
  you can have one too in your closet,
• 18:54
  like our bodies don't stop changing even as adults.
• 18:58
  Um and just really become a family that says,
• 19:00
  you know what,
• 19:01
  like we demand our clothing works for our bodies.
• 19:04
  We're never gonna try to change our bodies to fit into clothing.
• 19:07
  And so you go to goodwill nearby um and drop off clothing and find and find new clothing and you know,
• 19:16
  there's accessibility barriers obviously,
• 19:18
  like if you can't afford new clothing or if you have trouble accessing sizes.
• 19:22
  This is true too.
• 19:24
  It's,
• 19:24
  it's an additional uh stress factor but the the system putting it in place,
• 19:30
  it it really it's like you demonstrate your values as a family.
• 19:34
  You know,
• 19:34
  if my kid is having a lot of uh uh taking pants off,
• 19:39
  taking pants off rather than say what's wrong with you.
• 19:42
  There could be sensory issues too,
• 19:44
  right?
• 19:44
  Like the pants don't fit right the tags or you know,
• 19:47
  and say like you,
• 19:48
  you deserve pants that feel ok,
• 19:51
  we're not gonna stop till we find them,
• 19:53
  right?
• 19:53
  Like it's sort of centering these values that I think are,
• 19:58
  are eating disorder prevention,
• 20:00
  you know.
• 20:01
  Um,
• 20:02
  but it,
• 20:02
  but in scaffolding it into your home.
• 20:05
  So it's not like now we're gonna talk about eating disorder prevention,
• 20:08
  right?
• 20:08
  But rather it just becomes sort of part of the way we,
• 20:11
  we operate as a family.
• 20:14
  So I,
• 20:16
  I do too.
• 20:17
  It,
• 20:17
  that is so beautiful.
• 20:18
  And I'm thinking like I wrote it down the phrase,
• 20:21
  this is not working for my body instead of and I'm thinking of a phrase that I've probably said before and I know so many people have,
• 20:30
  I can't fit that anymore,
• 20:32
  right?
• 20:32
  And it like it completely.
• 20:35
  Um it shifts the narrative that I'm telling myself completely and it take like saying this is not working for my body anymore.
• 20:44
  Takes any kind of that like yucky self degrading shame that I might be experiencing with a changing body away by using this method that oh,
• 20:56
  I love that Zoe.
• 20:58
  Yeah.
• 20:58
  Oh I'm so glad.
• 20:59
  I mean,
• 20:59
  and I'll,
• 20:59
  I'll connect another little dot which I think is relevant particularly for you with your two year old.
• 21:05
  So uh oh,
• 21:07
  I normally have a copy here.
• 21:09
  So I don't know if you know,
• 21:10
  I mean,
• 21:10
  Eric Carl is famous but this book a House for hermit Crab.
• 21:14
  This is like this is not about body image.
• 21:17
  Let me be clear.
• 21:18
  But I think this sort of connects like,
• 21:21
  so you've got this system in your home.
• 21:23
  They're not working for my body anymore back and then this is not like there's,
• 21:27
  there are books that you might bring into your family.
• 21:30
  Um Certainly it is little if you have little kids like bodies are cool and big and these newer books that are truly body positive celebrating all bodies.
• 21:38
  I recently got this everybody book from uh someone at the Brooklyn Public Library sent it to me,
• 21:44
  but this is not one of these books,
• 21:47
  right?
• 21:47
  However,
• 21:48
  a house for hermit crab is a story of a hermit crab.
• 21:51
  The first beset page.
• 21:53
  He says,
• 21:54
  oh,
• 21:55
  my shell is too small for me time to move.
• 21:58
  And he goes on a journey where he very neutrally just outgrows his shell.
• 22:02
  And then he like asks all these other animals to like come along with him to like make it cute and help him keep clean and have safety and lights and,
• 22:12
  and then at the end,
• 22:13
  he outgrows it again and he's like,
• 22:15
  oh,
• 22:15
  time to move again.
• 22:16
  And then he finds another little hermit crab and he's like,
• 22:19
  oh,
• 22:19
  you can have my shell and I call it hermit crab wisdom because it's like as a body positive,
• 22:25
  what nurturer you could read this,
• 22:27
  which is just like a book about a little permit crab moving on,
• 22:30
  you know,
• 22:31
  and find a little lesson in there on like body neutrality.
• 22:36
  And then you can say,
• 22:37
  oh,
• 22:37
  just like us when our clothing doesn't fit anymore,
• 22:40
  we get a new shell and you know,
• 22:42
  we have to have shells that fit our bodies because it's harder to take care of your body and feel good in your body if it's too snug,
• 22:51
  right.
• 22:52
  You know,
• 22:52
  and you start to,
• 22:53
  you see as eating disorder therapists,
• 22:55
  how it's like reverse engineering,
• 22:56
  so much of the work that we do.
• 22:58
  And so a little book like this because I'm obsessed with this,
• 23:02
  this stuff.
• 23:03
  I see the eating disorder prevention everywhere.
• 23:06
  But I do think that if people kind of come along,
• 23:08
  they're like,
• 23:08
  oh my God,
• 23:08
  what a beautiful lesson.
• 23:10
  And yes,
• 23:10
  just like I not working for my body anymore bag.
• 23:13
  So this is like a a connection.
• 23:16
  Yes.
• 23:17
  Yes,
• 23:18
  I've had conversations with obviously so many people in recovery being in this position.
• 23:23
  And I can't tell you how many people say that wearing comfortable clothing was such a huge piece of their recovery.
• 23:33
  And they were surprised about it.
• 23:34
  I think when we think about body image,
• 23:36
  we forget how important just having access to comfortable clothes is how big of a difference it can make enormous difference.
• 23:46
  I mean,
• 23:46
  and I've uh and and again,
• 23:48
  this is partly why again,
• 23:50
  going back to the more values based stance,
• 23:55
  if you believe all bodies are good bodies and are deserving of equity and all of these things.
• 23:59
  Like we have a big problem in our culture.
• 24:02
  If not,
• 24:03
  everybody can walk into a store and access comfortable clothes,
• 24:07
  it's a tremendous problem.
• 24:09
  And I would like to think that kids that get to grow up in a body positive home can become the fashion designers that make different choices about that or the,
• 24:18
  you know,
• 24:18
  photo of the photographers that do campaigns that continue to promote,
• 24:24
  you know,
• 24:24
  the diversity.
• 24:25
  So II I think it's a but it's so funny how it's almost one of these like no brainers.
• 24:30
  Like,
• 24:31
  obviously you should be comfortable and yet people really don't,
• 24:35
  don't make that initial connection.
• 24:37
  But I,
• 24:37
  I mean,
• 24:38
  I send nonpregnant people for maternity clothes all the time during recovery because it's just like,
• 24:44
  let it,
• 24:45
  you gotta wear clothing that is like kind and it's saying to you like change,
• 24:50
  grow,
• 24:50
  expand all good,
• 24:52
  right?
• 24:52
  Like,
• 24:53
  yeah.
• 24:54
  Yes.
• 24:55
  Well,
• 24:55
  and I feel like fashion in general has shifted,
• 24:59
  maybe I would say maybe in the last like 20 years.
• 25:02
  Like I'm,
• 25:03
  I'm almost 40 growing up,
• 25:05
  I've always lived in a larger body and there were no clothes for me,
• 25:09
  you know,
• 25:09
  it was like my mom would take me to like Talbot or something,
• 25:14
  you know,
• 25:15
  and I'm like,
• 25:16
  there's nothing here that's pretty,
• 25:18
  you know,
• 25:19
  or like,
• 25:19
  I don't feel like a cute teenager or anything like that.
• 25:22
  And so the value of,
• 25:25
  of actually finding something that does fit on my body well,
• 25:30
  and like,
• 25:30
  I feel good and confident and it feels so good to be able to have that experience.
• 25:37
  Yes.
• 25:38
  Yeah.
• 25:39
  Um So I'm,
• 25:40
  I'm thinking Zoe going back to this like body home renovation.
• 25:45
  So when,
• 25:45
  when we're actively working on renovating our home,
• 25:50
  we're working on changing our language.
• 25:53
  Um We're working on supporting our kiddos and ourselves and um along comes Aunt Polly who is,
• 26:01
  everyone's got Polly,
• 26:03
  oh,
• 26:03
  Aunt Polly,
• 26:04
  not Aunt Polly,
• 26:06
  she's very focused on that,
• 26:08
  you know,
• 26:08
  that,
• 26:09
  that air quote health again.
• 26:11
  Um And,
• 26:12
  and she might bring in things like,
• 26:14
  you know,
• 26:15
  like,
• 26:15
  oh,
• 26:16
  that's too much candy or,
• 26:18
  or we're not,
• 26:19
  we're not eating,
• 26:20
  you know,
• 26:20
  again,
• 26:21
  air quote junk food right now.
• 26:23
  Yada yada.
• 26:24
  Um How do we,
• 26:26
  how do we move forward in,
• 26:28
  in voicing and advocating for the fact that we are doing a body renovation home?
• 26:34
  And this is a value system that we intend to uphold.
• 26:39
  Yeah,
• 26:39
  et cetera.
• 26:40
  Yeah,
• 26:40
  I hear you.
• 26:41
  I mean,
• 26:41
  and ii I think partly why it,
• 26:47
  you know,
• 26:47
  there's a lot of like,
• 26:48
  uh if you're on social media content about this,
• 26:51
  like here's how you talk to Aunt Polly,
• 26:52
  you know,
• 26:53
  and I,
• 26:53
  I've,
• 26:54
  I've tried those,
• 26:55
  but I think part of what I really appreciate about this is that interpersonal effectiveness is a skill,
• 27:04
  right?
• 27:04
  And so if Aunt Polly happens to also be kind of like a narcissist,
• 27:11
  it's going to be harder to set a limit with her.
• 27:15
  Then Aunt Fran who maybe is just like,
• 27:19
  I didn't know I,
• 27:20
  I'd love to learn more about how to help you affirm their bodies.
• 27:26
  And that's in a way a kind of for everyone to think about like who are these family members?
• 27:33
  What kind of,
• 27:34
  how flexible are they?
• 27:36
  Do they listen to me,
• 27:37
  how am I doing with my boundary setting?
• 27:40
  Because there are going to be situations,
• 27:43
  you know,
• 27:43
  if you think about,
• 27:44
  let's say your kid is struggling with body image,
• 27:47
  maybe they are going through puberty.
• 27:48
  So they are actually gaining weight.
• 27:51
  And you know that like bringing them to Aunt Polly's house is like going to be catastrophic because there's just no way Aunt Polly's not saying something about their body in front of them.
• 28:02
  And you know,
• 28:02
  this kid is at risk,
• 28:04
  like if you can't talk to Aunt Polly ahead of time to be like,
• 28:07
  listen,
• 28:08
  you know,
• 28:09
  Jenny has gained weight since the last time you saw her,
• 28:12
  she's going through puberty,
• 28:13
  she's healthy,
• 28:14
  she's doing great.
• 28:15
  And one of the ways you can support her is to just don't comment on her body.
• 28:19
  Ask her about her life if Aunt Polly is like,
• 28:21
  well,
• 28:21
  I won't do that,
• 28:22
  then I don't think you can go to Aunt Polly's house.
• 28:25
  However,
• 28:26
  if you can sort of cope,
• 28:28
  cope ahead,
• 28:29
  you know,
• 28:29
  set the boundary.
• 28:30
  And Polly says I don't want to do anything to upset her.
• 28:32
  Of course,
• 28:33
  you know,
• 28:34
  like,
• 28:34
  so it really has a lot to do.
• 28:36
  I think with the people you're dealing with and then your own ability.
• 28:40
  And I think that those are skills that we can help people with,
• 28:43
  right?
• 28:44
  Like,
• 28:44
  think about D BT skills around interpersonal effectiveness.
• 28:48
  I teach those all the time for these questions when parents have these questions because it's not that big a ask to say to somebody,
• 28:56
  please don't talk about your diet in front of my kid.
• 28:59
  And yet if you are a person that struggles to ask for what you need,
• 29:03
  it's going to be terrifying to you,
• 29:04
  right?
• 29:05
  So I wish there was like a say this.
• 29:08
  I think I kind of modeled how I might handle it.
• 29:10
  Um And,
• 29:11
  you know,
• 29:11
  it depends on your personality and if somebody just sort of a ad Libs,
• 29:15
  like I could see a grandparent just making a kind of stupid,
• 29:18
  loose lipped comment that I kind of notice,
• 29:21
  I might say something like,
• 29:22
  hey,
• 29:23
  you know,
• 29:23
  please,
• 29:24
  this is,
• 29:24
  this is what we don't need to body shame here.
• 29:26
  You know,
• 29:26
  I might handle it casually.
• 29:28
  I might look into an older child.
• 29:30
  I might say like,
• 29:31
  oh my God,
• 29:31
  grandpa is just never gonna learn.
• 29:33
  Let's go over here and enjoy our cake.
• 29:35
  You know,
• 29:36
  like I think that there's,
• 29:38
  you know,
• 29:38
  you gotta be attuned to the kid.
• 29:40
  You're with the the family members you're with.
• 29:43
  And so I,
• 29:44
  I encourage people to take the,
• 29:46
  the social media advice about this with a grain of salt because I could see how people say,
• 29:51
  well,
• 29:51
  I can't imagine saying that to my mother in law.
• 29:54
  Like she would be so offended.
• 29:56
  Well,
• 29:56
  what else aren't you saying to your mother in law?
• 29:58
  You know,
• 29:59
  and how's that working out for you?
• 30:00
  And do you need some guidance around that?
• 30:02
  Right.
• 30:02
  Like I wanna appreciate the complexities of human relationships and culture too.
• 30:07
  I think,
• 30:08
  you know,
• 30:08
  it's just not always realistic to be able to tell grandma what she should and shouldn't say depending on your culture.
• 30:15
  So I think that's such a good point.
• 30:16
  It's,
• 30:16
  it really depends on,
• 30:18
  you know,
• 30:18
  your relationships and the people in your life.
• 30:21
  I think that's a great point about culture.
• 30:24
  And I,
• 30:25
  I guess the one thing I'll say is if as a body positive nurturer,
• 30:30
  if I'm really embodying my values,
• 30:32
  I'm going to err on the side of advocacy,
• 30:35
  I'm gonna err on the side of saying something.
• 30:38
  If it feels like in the way that like if someone made a racist comment,
• 30:43
  would you just laugh or roll your eyes or might you say like,
• 30:47
  grandpa,
• 30:48
  no,
• 30:48
  we don't talk that way anymore like we don't,
• 30:52
  you know,
• 30:53
  um but also what it,
• 30:54
  you might be raising kids that are again culturally relative,
• 30:58
  but like a kid who's,
• 30:59
  you know,
• 30:59
  11 year old,
• 31:00
  nine year old who's sort of into activism might hear something and say,
• 31:04
  what are you doing?
• 31:04
  Like,
• 31:05
  you know,
• 31:05
  that's inappropriate.
• 31:06
  I don't know.
• 31:06
  I like my kids think they can say whatever they want about things like that.
• 31:11
  Um,
• 31:11
  but again,
• 31:13
  I think the more you embody these values,
• 31:15
  I think the,
• 31:17
  not,
• 31:17
  the easier it is but the more worth it it feels to say something and then other times it's just not going to either feel worth it or even necessary.
• 31:25
  Yeah.
• 31:26
  Yeah.
• 31:26
  Sam,
• 31:27
  your your thought reminded me and to be honest,
• 31:30
  I can't remember if it,
• 31:31
  if I heard this concept on it,
• 31:33
  the podcast or um another training that I did,
• 31:36
  but the idea of external versus internal boundaries when we attend something,
• 31:43
  um you know,
• 31:44
  if culturally it might not be appropriate to set that external boundary or that limit,
• 31:49
  how can we prepare ourselves internally um prior to going prior to experiencing that and reminding ourselves of that value system that we,
• 31:59
  we want so badly to uphold not only for ourselves but for our loved ones involved as well,
• 32:05
  I think is um something that can help us with those internal boundaries.
• 32:09
  Um So,
• 32:10
  so that if the comments do happen,
• 32:12
  they don't land or sting as hard.
• 32:16
  Hm.
• 32:17
  Mhm Yeah.
• 32:19
  Yeah.
• 32:19
  We were talking earlier,
• 32:21
  Zoe about your Instagram account.
• 32:23
  We're huge fans of it.
• 32:24
  My body positive home and you have these great bite sized videos to help parents with the tough questions that their kids,
• 32:33
  you know,
• 32:34
  they,
• 32:34
  these,
• 32:34
  you know,
• 32:34
  so many parents tell me they completely freeze up when their kids says certain things.
• 32:39
  And I thought maybe on this episode,
• 32:41
  if it's ok,
• 32:42
  we can give some examples of some tough questions and how you might coach a parent through it.
• 32:48
  So how about your kid comes home and says mom,
• 32:55
  I hate my body.
• 32:56
  I look so fat.
• 32:58
  How do you help a parent?
• 33:01
  Uh,
• 33:02
  well,
• 33:03
  first I would invite the parent to like take a deep breath because that's a hard,
• 33:09
  it's just hard,
• 33:11
  it's really hard to hear your kid speak that way about themselves.
• 33:17
  You know,
• 33:17
  if they,
• 33:18
  they hate their body,
• 33:19
  right?
• 33:20
  And it's really hard,
• 33:21
  especially if you're doing all this work to hear them equate,
• 33:24
  hating their body with thinking they're fat or being fat,
• 33:28
  you know.
• 33:29
  So I would say to a parent,
• 33:31
  like you take a deep breath and remember that something really important just happened that your kid came to you,
• 33:37
  right?
• 33:39
  That is like already,
• 33:41
  wow,
• 33:41
  you're a really good parent like you did really well,
• 33:44
  if that already happened,
• 33:45
  right?
• 33:45
  So I would want the parent to know that in a way as upsetting as it is,
• 33:50
  you're off to a really good start because they came to you.
• 33:54
  And then I might just say,
• 33:56
  I'm so glad you're,
• 33:58
  you're telling me that you feel this way.
• 34:01
  It's a,
• 34:01
  it's a awful,
• 34:02
  it's awful to feel bad about your body.
• 34:04
  That's a terrible feeling.
• 34:07
  Um,
• 34:08
  you said you think you're fat?
• 34:10
  Like what?
• 34:11
  Or,
• 34:11
  or if,
• 34:12
  if that's what they said,
• 34:13
  you,
• 34:13
  you know,
• 34:14
  you think you look so fat,
• 34:15
  like,
• 34:16
  can you tell me more?
• 34:17
  Like,
• 34:18
  what,
• 34:18
  what do you mean?
• 34:19
  Some kids don't mean the same thing by that?
• 34:23
  Um,
• 34:24
  you know,
• 34:24
  I,
• 34:24
  I wouldn't leap in with,
• 34:26
  there's nothing wrong with being fat right away.
• 34:29
  I think I would try to be like,
• 34:30
  what do you,
• 34:31
  what do you mean?
• 34:32
  What are you feeling?
• 34:33
  What do you see,
• 34:34
  try to get him to talk to you and then just say like it is,
• 34:37
  you know,
• 34:38
  can you tell me more?
• 34:39
  I'm just so glad you came to me with this.
• 34:42
  This is you want to reinforce that they came to you and to remember that I feel so fat.
• 34:50
  I am so fat usually is a confused idea.
• 34:55
  Like sometimes it is genuinely a kid in a larger body looking around being like I am bigger than my peers.
• 35:03
  And that feels scary and bad that's different from sometimes people mean,
• 35:10
  I feel awkward,
• 35:12
  I feel um unworthy,
• 35:15
  I feel ashamed,
• 35:16
  right?
• 35:17
  Like that feeling that can mean so many things.
• 35:19
  So as parents,
• 35:20
  I think we just wanna not assume we know what they mean and just keep it really open.
• 35:26
  Um And not,
• 35:27
  you know,
• 35:28
  again,
• 35:28
  I think you answer it and you proceed very differently based on the actual size of your child.
• 35:32
  Because if you do have a child in a larger body who's talking this way to you.
• 35:38
  I think being able to validate what they're noticing.
• 35:41
  Right.
• 35:42
  That their body is bigger.
• 35:43
  Right.
• 35:44
  Maybe that's what they say.
• 35:45
  Oh,
• 35:46
  I'm so much bigger than all the,
• 35:48
  the other 12 year old girls in my class.
• 35:51
  I might say something like I,
• 35:52
  I see that too.
• 35:53
  You are bigger than them.
• 35:54
  And honestly,
• 35:56
  there's nothing wrong with that,
• 35:57
  but it can be harder to be shaped differently.
• 36:00
  We don't have a lot of control over those things,
• 36:02
  you know,
• 36:03
  but I'm just so glad you're talking to me about this.
• 36:05
  I'm here for you,
• 36:06
  you know.
• 36:06
  Um,
• 36:07
  and then I wouldn't add that part for a kid that,
• 36:10
  you know,
• 36:10
  a kid who's,
• 36:11
  let's say,
• 36:12
  average to smaller in size to other or thinner than other peers.
• 36:16
  You,
• 36:16
  your kid might be struggling with body dysmorphia.
• 36:19
  It's possible,
• 36:20
  right?
• 36:20
  So keeping that line of communication open might even allow you to be like,
• 36:24
  wow,
• 36:24
  I gotta get my kid evaluated,
• 36:26
  right.
• 36:27
  So I think that that,
• 36:29
  that's where I'd go.
• 36:30
  Hm.
• 36:31
  Mhm.
• 36:33
  Thank you for that.
• 36:33
  I think that's so helpful.
• 36:35
  Um What about,
• 36:38
  um,
• 36:38
  kids who I think parents get tripped up with food questions?
• 36:42
  So if a,
• 36:43
  if a kid asks,
• 36:45
  can I have ice cream for breakfast today?
• 36:49
  A lot of parents ask,
• 36:50
  I,
• 36:51
  I didn't know what to say.
• 36:54
  Yeah,
• 36:54
  I mean,
• 36:55
  I think as parents,
• 36:56
  like we do get to decide what is on the menu and what isn't.
• 37:00
  And I think there's a lot of different ways.
• 37:03
  I think so much of this,
• 37:04
  like I talk a lot about exquisite attunement like to the child before you.
• 37:08
  So there's so many different reasons for why a kid might ask for ice cream for breakfast.
• 37:14
  And there's also so many reactions a parent might have.
• 37:18
  I think it's completely reasonable to say it's just not one of the options today,
• 37:23
  but like that's actually,
• 37:25
  I think we should have that later for dessert with dinner.
• 37:27
  How about that?
• 37:29
  Um Or not today.
• 37:30
  I didn't plan for that today,
• 37:32
  but how about we put some on your waffle tomorrow like um or sure,
• 37:37
  you know,
• 37:37
  like we can have a little scoop of ice cream on your on,
• 37:41
  you know,
• 37:41
  where we're gonna have this today.
• 37:42
  But I could see ice cream next to the fruit.
• 37:44
  Like,
• 37:44
  why not?
• 37:45
  I don't think that any of those are wrong.
• 37:48
  I think they're all reasonable,
• 37:50
  but I think it's,
• 37:51
  it's sort of,
• 37:52
  it really has to do with what feels right to the parent,
• 37:55
  given that kids sort of evolving relationship to food.
• 37:58
  I think some parents feel nervous about saying no,
• 38:01
  because they fear that they're going to,
• 38:04
  I don't know,
• 38:04
  create um the opposite of a food,
• 38:07
  neutral environment or shame the child I think is if,
• 38:11
  especially if you're saying No,
• 38:12
  I think it's important to be like,
• 38:13
  wow,
• 38:14
  that's,
• 38:14
  I,
• 38:14
  I love that idea.
• 38:16
  It's not an option right now.
• 38:17
  But how about tomorrow?
• 38:18
  Like you want to reinforce there's nothing wrong with wanting that.
• 38:22
  Um,
• 38:22
  but it's just,
• 38:23
  I'm not serving it right now.
• 38:25
  And then if so if they get my three year old gets very upset if you tell her no about anything,
• 38:30
  you know,
• 38:31
  like let them have their feelings and then,
• 38:33
  you know,
• 38:34
  sometimes if it's going on and on and on over the course of many days,
• 38:37
  like give her the freaking ice cream,
• 38:39
  like maybe that's what she needs,
• 38:41
  you know,
• 38:41
  but,
• 38:41
  but so much of how you would sort of navigate questions like that,
• 38:45
  I think has to do with this sort of bigger picture of the relationship to food,
• 38:50
  you know,
• 38:50
  you're noticing with the child.
• 38:52
  Um You know,
• 38:53
  I'm noticing with these questions,
• 38:55
  you're really pointing out opportunities to really just get curious and learn more about what's going on in your kids head and,
• 39:03
  and what they're feeling and these are really opportunities where you can deepen your relationship with your child and make it more likely they're gonna come to you in the future bingo.
• 39:12
  Love it.
• 39:14
  So for anyone listening out there,
• 39:16
  if you wanna learn more,
• 39:17
  you have all kinds of videos with these types of questions.
• 39:21
  Head to my body.
• 39:22
  Positive Home on Instagram.
• 39:25
  Yeah,
• 39:26
  though I have one more question.
• 39:28
  We're kind of running out of time.
• 39:29
  But I,
• 39:30
  I was hoping that we could get to this.
• 39:32
  Um So you offer an individualized program called body neutral eyes,
• 39:37
  which includes a body image workout for your brain and the support of a personal body image trainer.
• 39:43
  Um What exactly is this intervention?
• 39:45
  And how can it help someone struggling with body image?
• 39:49
  Yeah.
• 39:49
  So this is a riff on mirror exposure therapy which we incorporate into like our clinical work.
• 39:57
  But uh in my group practice,
• 39:59
  so it's really in its sort of psychotherapy form is really excellent for body image work.
• 40:06
  Um for folks struggling with disordered eating,
• 40:08
  body image issues,
• 40:09
  eating disorders.
• 40:10
  But this workout is or this kind of program can be repurposed as like what I call a body image workout just for anybody who's like,
• 40:23
  I just want to feel better uh looking at my body,
• 40:26
  right?
• 40:26
  And so um it's a progressive,
• 40:29
  it's like six sessions and it's a progressive experience where you are guided with your body image trainer through um an exercise of looking in the mirror at your body in like progressively less and less clothing.
• 40:46
  Um And we guide you through observing,
• 40:51
  using neutral objective descriptive language to observe and describe what you see now what you think you see,
• 40:59
  not what grosses you out,
• 41:01
  but literally just what you see and uh from the front,
• 41:05
  from the back,
• 41:06
  from the side.
• 41:07
  And you know,
• 41:08
  we will take you as,
• 41:11
  as,
• 41:11
  as not make it as you'll go,
• 41:13
  but certainly into a bikini at the end if you will.
• 41:16
  And there,
• 41:18
  it's,
• 41:18
  it's pretty remarkable.
• 41:19
  Like what,
• 41:20
  what this allows people to do sort of reorient to the way they see themselves.
• 41:25
  I mean,
• 41:25
  I,
• 41:25
  ideally we don't want people thinking a whole lot about what their body looks like.
• 41:30
  Right.
• 41:30
  That's a pretty disembodied experience of the world.
• 41:33
  Um,
• 41:34
  but there is something about being able to give yourself an opportunity to look with,
• 41:44
  as I say,
• 41:44
  neutral eyes and you can't simultaneously judge and observe at the same time.
• 41:52
  So this is sort of the neutralizing effect and I play around with this with kids too.
• 41:58
  I mean,
• 41:58
  body neutralizes for adults or I guess a teen could do it too.
• 42:03
  Um But I,
• 42:04
  I think about like the shape game that I like to play with my little girl where it's just like,
• 42:10
  can you find a triangle on your face or how about an oval or a curve,
• 42:16
  you know,
• 42:16
  and it's,
• 42:17
  again,
• 42:17
  it's like completely neutral language and it's playful,
• 42:20
  right?
• 42:21
  Because being able to observe bodies neutrally and have access to that descriptive language is very protective,
• 42:29
  you know.
• 42:30
  Um So,
• 42:31
  yeah,
• 42:32
  that's awesome.
• 42:33
  Thank you.
• 42:34
  Um So as we wrap up any place you would want our listeners to go to find more material,
• 42:42
  how can they visit your website,
• 42:44
  you know,
• 42:45
  your Instagram?
• 42:46
  Um Where would you like to send our listeners to get more material.
• 42:50
  Sure.
• 42:51
  I mean,
• 42:51
  either uh the website which is www dot body Positive home.com or as Sam kindly plugged uh the Instagram.
• 43:01
  It's,
• 43:01
  it's fairly active at my body Positive Home.
• 43:04
  And yeah,
• 43:05
  I mean,
• 43:06
  between the website and the uh social media profile,
• 43:09
  there's announcements of when new workshops are coming up,
• 43:12
  I just wrapped a really nice workshop series that walked through these um kind of fundamentals that you were referencing.
• 43:20
  Uh And you know,
• 43:22
  I,
• 43:22
  I if you're looking to,
• 43:24
  you know,
• 43:24
  prevent eating disorders or raise a kid that has a better relationship with food and body than you do.
• 43:29
  Uh so much of the prevention work I do,
• 43:32
  I think is very self healing for anyone that has residual issues.
• 43:36
  Uh So those are the two places to find me right now.
• 43:40
  Um Thank you so much,
• 43:42
  Zoe.
• 43:42
  This has been so lovely connecting with you and,
• 43:45
  and just learning um about what,
• 43:48
  what your thoughts and,
• 43:49
  and your offerings on the body,
• 43:51
  positive home.
• 43:52
  Are we really appreciate it?
• 43:53
  And thank you to our listeners for joining us for another episode.
• 43:57
  And um don't forget if you have questions or comments,
• 44:00
  let us know podcast at Renfree center.com.
• 44:02
  Thanks all.
• 44:07
  Thank you for listening with us today on All Bodies.
• 44:09
  All Foods presented by the Renfrew Center for Eating Disorders.
• 44:13
  We're looking forward to you joining us next time as we continue these conversations.