Latest / Ebbs of History / When a Woman was Pope

Transcript

When a Woman was Pope · Ebbs of History

• Jason: Histiography! Lessons we've learned today. Time for the Fun Fact Challenge! to the ebbs of history, the show where we dive into the strangest, wildest, and sometimes downright creepiest stories the past has to offer. From dancing plagues to pirate queens, you'll laugh, you'll gasp, you'll even groan at my impeccable dad jokes. But most importantly, we'll learn how history is way cooler than your textbook ever told you. ⁓ Zoe: We are history loving hosts, so. Gavin: ⁓ Gavin. Jason: And I'm Jason, and in every episode, the three of us will take a quick trip through time and see what lessons we can still learn today. This is the EBS of History. Hey there history lovers, welcome back to another episode of Ebbs of History. We're so glad you're here with us today. Zoe, Gavin, how's your spring break going so far? Gavin: Going good, relaxing a lot. Zoe: It's been amazing. I haven't barely left the house. Gavin: We went to Topgolf today. That was a lot of fun. That was really fun. It's always fun. only the second time I've been there, but it's still really fun. Jason: Kind of stinks because they're house-sitting, huh? Can't sleep in your own bed, but other than that... Gavin: Yeah. Pretty good. It has been nice being able to go outside, know. Jason: Yeah, yeah. Alright, before we start this week's show, I have two things to say. First, I want to give a shout out to Alastair P for suggesting today's topic. Alastair, it's listeners like you that keep us coming back week after week. Thank you. Second, I have decided to make the questions in the Fun Fact Challenge harder. I usually go easy on you two, but you've shown me incredible note taking skills, except for Gavin on the last episode. Gavin: Well, I just didn't take notes that time. ⁓ huh. I, I, I, Jason: Big mistake, right? Well, it's time to kick it up a notch. You guys get those way too easily, so I'm gonna start making them a little bit So keep that in mind during today's episode. Gavin: ⁓ no. Okay, I'll take my notes. Jason: Let's jump in. Today's story is about Pope Joan, a woman according to legend, ⁓ disguised herself as a man, rose through the ranks of the Church, and became Pope in the 9th century. And allegedly, her secret was only discovered when she gave birth during a papal procession. If that doesn't make you say, wait, what? ⁓ I don't know what will. So the question is, did this actually happen? Or is it one of history's greatest myths? Let's lay some groundwork. The legend of Pope Joan is absolutely wild, and it starts, as many good stories do, with a young woman who refused to accept the limitations society placed on her. According to the most popular versions of the tale, Joan was born in the early 9th century, possibly in a town of Mainz, is in what's now Germany. Some accounts say that she was English, others say that she was Greek. Honestly, the sources really can't agree on much in this story, which should probably be our first clue about how this story's historiography is going to go. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Joan was reportedly brilliant. Like, super uber scary smart. She had an insatiable appetite for knowledge, which, for women in the 9th century, is basically a recipe for frustration and disaster. Women weren't exactly encouraged to become scholars back then. In fact, they were actively discouraged. Education was for men only, especially if you wanted to study theology or philosophy. Let me paint you a picture of what life was like for a woman in the 9th century. Most women were expected to marry young, have children, manage a household, and not much else. The idea of a woman reading Latin texts or debating philosophy? That was considered not just unusual, but dangerous. The prevailing belief was that women's minds weren't capable of higher learning. and unmanageable. Zoe. Imagine you couldn't go to school. You had to stay at home, clean the house, cook, and then find a husband and have kids. Those were the only things you were allowed to do for your entire life. But it was assumed that those things were believed to be the only things that you could do. How would you feel about that? Zoe: really upset. upset. I'm so limited. There's nothing ⁓ I... It's of ⁓ your parents saying you have one path, but it's society saying you only have ⁓ one thing that Jason: That's right. Yeah, that's a good analogy. When your parents say, say your parents are doctors and they say, well, you have to be a doctor because we're doctors. It limits you. Zoe: It's limiting. Jason: But it's society saying it. I do like that we've come as far enough to, you know, I can say be a doctor as my example. Yeah. You know, versus being educated or doing anything outside the home. So that's how it was back then. So when Joan showed exceptional intelligence and curiosity, Zoe: on it. Jason: She was fighting against centuries of assumptions about what could and should do. According to legend, Joan fell in love with a monk. Let's call him her boyfriend, He was the one who introduced her to the world of learning. They studied together in secret, and Joan discovered that she had a real gift for it. She devoured every text she could. Philosophy, theology, rhetoric, logic. She excelled at all of it. But here's the tragedy. When her boyfriend died, Joan was left alone with all this knowledge and nowhere to use it. She couldn't become a scholar. She couldn't attend university. Every door was closed to her simply because of her gender. If you were Joan and had this incredible thirst for knowledge but society told you that it wasn't allowed, would you give up on learning or would you find a way? ⁓ Zoe: I would find a way just to like, Jason: Just out of spite. Not to learn, but just out of spite to be able to say, can do it. Obviously, but I'm just saying. Gavin: I do agree. Jason: Yeah. So you would, ⁓ you'd find a way? Yes. Cool. Gavin: I mean, if she did find a way, she'd be getting both. Jason: There you go. Joan wanted to continue her education, but obviously as a woman she couldn't just waltz into a monastery or cathedral school and sign up for classes. So Joan found a way. She made a radical decision. If the world wouldn't let her learn as a woman, she would become a man. So Joan disguised herself as a man. Think about that for a second. This is the ninth century. No chest binders, no modern underwear or shapewear, no contemporary or conveniences whatsoever. Just some baggy robes, strategic binding with cloth strips and sheer determination. She had to change her walk, lower her voice. ⁓ adapt male mannerisms and never, not even for a moment, let the disguise slip. And apparently, she was really good at it, as we will see later. Can you imagine the commitment? I can barely commit to whether I want my beard long or short. And this woman's out here living a double life for years. Every morning she woke up, she had to become someone else. Every interaction was a performance. ⁓ One one slip of the tongue, one suspicious glance, and it could all come crashing down. Now, here's a question for the two of you. What do you think would be the hardest part of living this kind of double life? The physical disguise or the constant fear of being discovered? Gavin: Fear. Just like, I feel like the fear would make the, like the chances of her getting discovered higher because you're so nervous that you will get discovered. Jason: Yeah, and make a mistake because of the fear. Yeah. It's like a vicious circle. How about you, Zoe Zoe: I was going to say what you said. Yeah. Because it's like the fear makes you scared you're going to mess up and you get in your own head and then you mess up. It's kind of like whenever I have a seating class and it's time to perform it, like I know, I know, I know my lines, I know everything. It's just like getting my head and then end up, something goes wrong. Jason: Yeah. It's the fear. That fear is uncontrollable. You can control whether you know your lines or not. You can't control the fear that you feel getting up there on stage. Gavin: That's like a good example Zoe: Because I do, you do everything you can to prepare. Everything you can, but something always happens. Jason: You'll get better with time, know, that's ⁓ basically what did. ⁓ Over time, sure the fear lessened, but it was still always there. It's never gonna go away. So Joan, ⁓ now going the name Johannes Anglicus. English that's a Latin for John the Englishman ⁓ So Joan, or Johann Anglicus, traveled to Athens to study. And here's where her brilliance really shines through. She didn't just blend in, she excelled. She became known for her incredible intellect and her mastery of theology, philosophy, and rhetoric. People were impressed, like really impressed. Imagine being in a classroom with her, this young man, who could quote Augustine and Aristotle from memory, who could construct arguments so elegantly that even the most learned scholars stopped to listen. Joan wasn't just getting by, she was becoming one of the most respected scholars of her time. Eventually she made her way to Rome, the heart of the Catholic Church, and the center of Christian learning in Europe. In Rome, Joan's reputation continued to grow. She became a teacher, instructing other clergy in theology and philosophy. Then she became a notary, recording important church documents and decisions. Then it starts to get really wild. She became a Cardinal, one of the most powerful positions in the Catholic Church, just one step below the Pope himself. She was climbing the ranks of the Catholic Church like she was on some kind medieval corporate ladder. And nobody ⁓ suspected a thing. Are you wondering how that's even possible? Yeah. I mean, did nobody ever question anything? I don't think so, but like, I guess they just need- Zoe: bad down back then. Because if you think about it, great minds of the time. It's like, this point in time, historically it's famous for all the famous writers and thinkers and philosophes and everything like that. And then they let her go by. There's something on... Jason: Yeah, I mean she just had to be really lucky with private bathrooms, right? Yeah, you know like She had to go into the male bathrooms. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Did nobody ever notice that she didn't grow a beard either? Gavin: you Zoe: Yeah Gavin: She saved it. I feel like it just must have been a really good disguise mixed with a little dislike. Eocacy. So yeah. Jason: But medieval clergy were known for being fairly private about personal matters. Many monks and priests lived in individual cells, maintained personal privacy for prayer and study, and it wasn't considered unusual for someone to be modest or reclusive. It was actually preferred. Joan must have used every bit of that monastic expectation to her advantage. Here's something to think about. Joan could have stopped climbing the medieval corporate ladder. and state being a scholar or a teacher. Why do you think she kept going and climbing higher in the church? Zoe: It's that... It's that lust for knowledge. It's like... It's like you just... You want more, you want more, you want more. It's that thirst for knowledge. She's just a curious person just wanting to know more. And maybe that, in her mind, that's the way to get it. More knowledge. Jason: Maybe. Gavin: I feel like I just like to prove herself that she could do it. Jason: That's what I think. That's exactly what I think. At some point, if it were me, I'd just keep going to see if I could keep going. Yeah. You know? How long can I go without being discovered? Gavin: Kind of like a game by that point, like, haha. Jason: I'd be thinking, I've gotten this far and these idiots haven't figured it out, why not just keep going? according to legend, in the year 855, or 857, depending on who you ask, you know how history can be tricky like Pope Leo IV died. The Cardinals gathered to elect a new pope, and who do you think they chose? Joan. Joan. Or rather, they chose Johannes Anglicus, the brilliant scholar and theologian who had so impressed everyone with his knowledge and piety. Picture the moment. ⁓ The Cardinals vote, white rises from the chimney, and Joan, this woman who had spent years pretending to be a man just to learn, is now the head of the entire Catholic Church. the most powerful religious figure in Europe, the spiritual leader of millions of Christians. Gavin: And like for that time the Pope had so much power, like more power than they have today. Zoe: God is a woman. Gavin: That is just like so much power that she got. Jason: So now we have a woman sitting on the throne of Saint Peter. She's leading masses in Saint Peter's Basilica. She's making theological decisions that affect the entire Christian world. She's meeting with kings and emperors. She's basically running the entire show. And still, nobody knows. Can you imagine the stress? Like, forget about the whole leading the Catholic church thing for a second. Just imagine trying to keep that secret. Every single day, public appearance, every private meeting, every moment of every day, she had to maintain the disguise. I get anxious when I forget someone's name that I see at the store. So this woman's out here living the ultimate undercover operation. There you go. ⁓ Zoe: Montana. Gavin: It's gotta be like more stressful than the actual like Pope job itself. I agree. Jason: I definitely agree. But here's where everything falls apart. According to the legend, Joan had been the pope for about two years when disaster struck. During this time, she had apparently been having a secret relationship with one of her close advisors. Because of course she was. I mean, you don't go through all this trouble just to live a boring life, right? Plus, she's a human, she has needs and desires and emotions just like everyone else. And this goes right along with what I said earlier what I would do. Let's see how far we can take it. Now, Joan becomes pregnant. Now you may think to yourself, wait, how did she hide that? answer is not very well. Loose robes can hide a lot and papal vestments are voluminous, but there are limits. The most famous version of this story says that Joan went into labor during a papal procession. Picture it. It's public event. Thousands of people lining the streets. It's not every day that you get to see the Pope in full regalia parading through the streets of Banners are flying, incense is burning, hymns being sung. It was a grand procession, very ceremonial, very official, very public. Joan. suddenly goes into labor right there in the street. Somewhere between the Colosseum and St. John Lateran, depending on which account you read, there's no hiding it now. The pain is too intense. The contraction is too strong. And then, in front of thousands of onlookers, the baby is born. ⁓ crowd erupts. ⁓ people are screaming, others are praying. Many are simply frozen in disbelief. Gavin: ⁓ my god. Jason: The secret is out in the most dramatic public way imaginable. Gavin: I can imagine being one of those people and just being like, what the heck? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Jason: And according to most versions of the tale, Joan dies shortly after, either from complications of the childbirth, which was incredibly common in the 9th century, or from the mob of angry Romans who were, understandably, pretty upset about the whole situation. Some versions say that she was dragged behind a horse through the streets. Others say she was quickly buried in an unmarked grave, and the church tried to erase all evidence of her existence. A few accounts claim that she survived, was deposed, and lived out her days in quiet penance at a remote convent. But here's what allegedly happened next that really cements this legend in history. And I swear I am not making this up. The church was so traumatized by this incident that they supposedly created a special ritual. Before any new pope could be officially installed, he had to sit on a special chair. a chair with a hole cut in the seat, so that a specially designated cardinal could reach up and physically verify that the new pope was, in fact, a male. Right. You heard that right. Papal testicle check. And apparently after the the cardinal announces, ⁓ Duos habit et bene which translates to, he has two and they hang well. Gavin: I mean, like, what the heck? Jason: This is supposedly the actual phrase used in the ceremony. Now I don't know about you, but that has got to be the most awkward job in the entire Catholic Church. So, what do you do for a living? ⁓ I verify papal anatomy. Gavin: ⁓ yeah, not much. Jason: question for you two. Do you think Joan's story, whether true or not, is ultimately tragic, inspiring, or maybe both? Gavin: A little bit of both. Like the tragedy by the end, but you're inspiring by the beginning and middle. Jason: You know Zoe: I think it's inspiring because doing people that you're not supposed to or to do. It's ⁓ how women's rights progress throughout history. It's people trying and trying trying forever. Jason: And yet she persisted. Zoe: Yeah, if you think this is one of the first acts of feminism, if you really think about it like that, mean... Jason: Yeah, yeah, I mean there's probably some other ones like maybe Lady Godiva or things like that, yeah, I agree. That's a good point. So that's the legend of Pope Joe. A brilliant woman who defied every social norm, risked everything for knowledge and achievement, became Pope, and whose secret was revealed in the most dramatic way possible. got everything, forbidden knowledge, secret identities, scandal, tragedy, and ecclesiastical anatomy checks. Here's the thing about Pope Joan, most historians today believe that she never existed. The legend almost certainly isn't true, and not because of a cover-up, but because of the evidence, or rather, the total lack of it. The story doesn't appear in any 9th century sources. not a single contemporary chronicle, ⁓ letter, or church record from the even hints at a female pope. The tale first shows up in the 13th century, roughly 400 years after Joan supposedly lived, in the chronicles of the Dominican friar named Martin of Opava, From there, it spread like wildfire across medieval Europe, and a surprisingly long time, many people, some within the church, accepted it as true. Zoe: The first thing I can think of is they ⁓ it from the records ⁓ they were embarrassed that they didn't catch it. That's the ⁓ thing I can think of. ⁓ actually no evidence of it. Jason: Maybe. Gavin: That's like a Jason: an interesting way to critically think about that. Gavin: would definitely make sense though. Jason: It would make sense, During the Protestant Reformation, the legend became a favorite polemical weapon. Protestant reformers pointed to Pope John as proof that the Church was corrupt and dishonest. The Church pushed back hard, and in 1601, Pope Clement VIII officially declared the story a myth. 1647, French historian David Blondel published a thorough scholarly dismantling of the legend, historians describe as the definitive demolition. Modern scholars point to a clear timeline that leaves no room for a two-year female papacy ⁓ between Pope IV and his successor Benedict III. The papal succession records are intact. No gap exists. No contemporary sources support Joan's existence. The Cambridge history of the papacy and concludes the legend likely began as a popular satire that was picked up by chroniclers with their own agendas. And yet, here we are, still talking about it. Yeah. Why? Because the story taps into something very real. about who gets access to power, who gets to be educated, and whether institutions tell the full truth about their own histories. That's exactly what you were saying, Zoe. The legend of Pope Joan endures not because it's factual, but because it's meaningful. So what do we take away from the legend of Pope John? Even if she never existed. Zoe: Kind of like what I was saying, previously, just the access to education, access ⁓ kind what you were just saying, the women's rights thing, where it all goes, ⁓ do they, quote unquote, to have education, deserve to have rights? ⁓ It's kind like an ethical, not an ethical debate, but it's I don't know, it's... Just the case of ⁓ they don't have ⁓ rights that they want or think that they deserve, ⁓ ⁓ take it and they do what they can to ⁓ get ⁓ they deserve. ⁓ even if it's just I don't sneaking into a factory and doing a shift or being Pope, you know? ⁓ Jason: Instead of being subservient, they actually go about and do something about the inequities Zoe: They don't just sit around. Jason: Okay, Gavin, any thoughts? Gavin: I feel kind of just to push yourself to complete feats that ⁓ impossible ⁓ you but ⁓ and you end up doing them, you know? ⁓ like ⁓ in yourself. ⁓ yourself. Jason: Alright, I've got a couple. the hunger for knowledge ⁓ universal and unstoppable. Whether Joan was real or not, the story reflects a truth. Throughout history, countless brilliant people were denied education, ⁓ and recognition ⁓ because of their gender, race, or class. Their potential was locked away by systems that feared what they might become. We should ask ourselves, who are we still locking out today? Mmm, the eyebrows go up. institutions often shape their own historical narratives. That's exactly what you were saying, Zoe. Yeah. Gavin: Thank Zoe: because there's no record, but there's this whole flesh out. Jason: So you could take the no record thing two ways. One, it never actually happened. Or B, it was erased. Zoe: never actually happened. I mean that's kind of like a really embarrassing thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we realize that a woman was poked for two years, right? That's embarrassing Gavin: She was able to climb through the ⁓ ranks of the Kloji for even longer. Zoe: Everyone thought she That's embarrassing. ⁓ Jason: So it's so embarrassing and yes, it's it's super embarrassing and all that kind of stuff they didn't catch it doesn't that make you lean towards Believing that it actually didn't happen because it is just so outrageous that something that big would go unnoticed for so long Right. Yeah. Yeah Zoe: That feather's always too sized, something. Jason: Yes. Gavin: Yeah. Jason: And the last one, myths carry meaning even when they lack facts. The story of Pope John has been used across the centuries as a mirror, reflecting anxieties about gender and power, about what the church is and what it should be. Gavin: Although it might not be true, we can still learn from the myth. It doesn't have to be real to learn something from it. Jason: Today her stories become a feminist symbol and a cultural touchstone. History isn't just about what happened, it's about what stories we tell and why we keep telling them. Hard Edition. ⁓ Alright, you two know the rules. me finish the question. You lock in ⁓ I say your name. You give the answer Best of three. Question one. The Pope Joan legend first appeared in written chronicles approximately how many years after she supposedly reigned? Zoe. Zoe: Locked in. 600 years. Jason: Incorrect. Also incorrect. About 400 years. I knew it was... You guys are all over it. The story first appears in the 13th century while Joan supposedly reigned in the 9th century. Alright, tied going into question two, that's a first. Question two. Gavin: Can I go? 200 years. Zoe: I'm coming in. Jason: This story says that the sources can't agree on which detail about Joan. Gavin: Wait, can you say that again? Zoe: Okay. Jason: The story that I just told, everything that you just listened to, there was a part where I said that the sources just can't agree on this. Gavin. Zoe: Locked ⁓ locked in! Gavin: the fact that it's real or not. Jason: I guess that is one, but that's not what I'm looking for. ⁓ I don't think there's a debate on that. Gavin: Mm-hmm. Jason: ⁓ I'm gonna give it to you, because that is true. That is debated. But that's history. The answer that I have was where she was born. She may have been born in Mainz, Germany. She may have been from England. Some say she was from Greece. Hmm? Gavin: What? I guess Jason: Zoe you're up by one. three. Latin phrase was supposedly announced by a cardinal after physically verifying a new Pope's gender according to the legend? Gavin: He has two and they hang well. Jason: Perfect, spot on. Duo's Habit at Bene Pendentes. Zoe: in Latin. Latin phrase like I was deus ex machina. It's in literature when the basically it's like oh and it was all a dream. It's just a fancy word for it was all a dream. Jason: Yeah Gavin: Do we have a tiebreaker? Jason: tie. Is this the first time we've had a tie? No. We did a closest to the pin. Okay, first high breaker. There are two answers to this question. You only need to give one of them. Gavin: Can we give first? Jason: You can if you have them, Modern scholars point to a clear timeline that leaves no room for a two-year female papacy between what two popes? Gavin: Not today. Zoe: Leo? Jason: Zoe, I'm gonna need a regnal number. Zoe: before. Jason: That is ⁓ Zoe: In between, ⁓ wait, well I'm not going to point it if I get the actor one wrong. Jason: No. Yeah. I mean you'll get the point. You won. So what's the second one? Do you know it? Gavin, do you know it? No. Yeah, go for it. Gavin: ⁓ shucks. I don't. Zoe: Clements. Jason: Incorrect. Zoe: Because you mentioned Clement before. Who was it? John? Jason: Urban? Has another... Benedict. Benedict the third. He doesn't got... No. Gavin: Cool, I knew it. Jason: Alright, good job Zoe, you won that round. ⁓ This in Gavin: us. Jason: ⁓ Gavin: This day in history! Jason: Today is April 16th, and on this day in 1521, Martin Luther arrives at the diet of Worms. No, it's Worms. Germans pronounce W's as V's. Zoe: It's not pronounced worms. just watched a Heimler video on this. Talking about Protestant Reformation, I started talking about Martin Luther Jason: ⁓ Very cool. Today in 1521 he arrived at the Diet of Worms. The German theologian stood before Holy Roman Emperor Charles V to defend his writings, challenging the Catholic Church, refusing to recant and setting the stage for... The Protestant Reformation. Zoe: I better work on that one. Jason: April 16th, 1917, Vladimir Lenin returns to Russia from exile. After years abroad, Lenin arrived at Finland station, where he delivered his famous April Vesis calling for an immediate Bolshevik revolution, ⁓ that would arrive just months later. ⁓ Zoe: And that started communism in Russia. Jason: Correct? Gavin: What year was that? Jason: And then on April 16th in 2003, 10 new member states are admitted to the European Union. The Treaty of Assession, signed in Athens, brought Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Cyprus, and six others into the EU, the largest single expansion in the bloc's history. Zoe: because of those are like the Western Bloc states right? Bloc and they got added to the whatever NATO nation what is it? Oh they got added to the EU because they got let from Soviet control so is that why? That's why it was a bunched out one time. Jason: And wouldn't that be Eastern block? European Union. I believe so, yeah, I think you're right. I don't know what's top of my head. Zoe: Because it's like all of the blog. It's that border. Jason: Yes, a very large portion. That's it for this episode. Thanks for traveling through time with us on the ebbs of history. If you like today's story, share it with a teacher, a friend, or your family on Instagram at ebbsofhistory. If you have any show ideas, corrections, or questions, can contact us at questions at ebbsofhistory.com. Gavin: Signing off, this has been your co-host, Gavin. Jason: I'm Zoe. And me, Jason, reminding you that history is not just about dates and battles. It's about people, curiosity, and the weird, wonderful choices that shaped our world. Until next time, keep wondering, keep laughing, and keep learning through the ebbs of history.