Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #18 Punishment, Eternity, and Grace

Transcript

#18 Punishment, Eternity, and Grace · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, Tim Wright here, along with John D. Burgess filling in for Terry Summers.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we have been spending a number of weeks looking at the question of hell and
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: eternity and Christian universalism.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're going to at least wrap up sort of the thoughts that I've had on
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: this as we've been going along.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And John's going to jump in once in a while for some clarification,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: and then probably we'll have another podcast where we will unpack some questions
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: once again.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I've been saying throughout this series of podcasts that the scriptures suggest
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: that God through Jesus will ultimately welcome everyone into eternity with God
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: That the work of Jesus is not punitive, but restorative.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that grace will have the final word.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And as Paul says in Philippians 2, every knee will bow.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
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  SPEAKER_00: So one of the questions that this raises is, well, wait, that doesn't seem fair.
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  SPEAKER_00: What about justice?
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  SPEAKER_00: What about these evil people?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about that a little bit.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: So let me just remind us that when we talk about hell, we're talking about the character of God.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we want to make sure that whatever we say about hell or any theology is in
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: line with the character of God as revealed in Scripture.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're always asking the question, what is God like?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean that God is loving?
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  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean that this loving God is just and fair?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean that God judges the world?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
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  SPEAKER_00: And as we talked about in our last podcast and in several of them,
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  SPEAKER_00: John being a lawyer,
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  SPEAKER_00: we tend to think of law and judges as punitive where grace is restorative,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: that Jesus came to reconcile all things to himself.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it does seem incongruous,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's a big word,
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  SPEAKER_00: to imagine these really kind of evil people or people just turn their backs on God
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Standing before Jesus and Jesus says, you know what?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love you too.
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  SPEAKER_00: Come on in.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so there are a number of things that we want to keep in mind as we talk through this.
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  SPEAKER_00: And John, I'm going to give you, I'm going to take a breath here in just a moment.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that we always want to remember about grace is that it's
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: always scandalously unfair.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing fair about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: If it's fair, we're all in trouble.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus said over and over again through his stories that grace is unfair.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what grace does do is it restores us.
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  SPEAKER_00: It takes this disfiguring that we have done to ourselves through sin and Jesus
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: through grace remakes all of us.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's to the prodigals that Jesus runs.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's the sinners and tax collectors that Jesus eats with.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the only time that Jesus had harsh words was for the religious.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: John,
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  SPEAKER_00: before we kind of talk about what that scene might be like with every knee bowing
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  SPEAKER_00: and every tongue confessing,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to just take a breath,
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  SPEAKER_00: a little sip of water.
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  SPEAKER_00: Anything you want to add in before we dive in?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so, Tim, two things.
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  SPEAKER_01: Number one,
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  SPEAKER_01: it goes without saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: but maybe we should because I'm going to say it now,
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  SPEAKER_01: God's character is unchanging.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, God's character is unchanging in that God is always loving.
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  SPEAKER_00: And God is always gracious.
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  SPEAKER_00: And remember, the Bible doesn't say God is loving.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Bible says God is love.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the essence of who God is.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what makes a concept of hell so troubling.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the way that works out in my life is if I'm as laser focused on a loving God as I possibly can be,
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  SPEAKER_01: When I see things that is inconsistent with that,
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  SPEAKER_01: that requires some work on my part to try to figure that out.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the Old Testament's the bad guy here for me a lot of times because I look at it and
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that makes no sense to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if this character is unchanging, then there's something here that I need to study.
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  SPEAKER_01: I need to figure this out.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I said to Terry a few podcasts ago,
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  SPEAKER_00: one of the things we need to remember about the Bible is that the Bible is a very
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  SPEAKER_00: human experience with God and that the people in the Bible don't always get God right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so when there are things in the Old Testament that seem to go against the
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: character of God,
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  SPEAKER_00: then we want to step back and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: did they misunderstand God?
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  SPEAKER_00: Not that the Bible misunderstands God, but people in the midst of the experience, just like we do,
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  SPEAKER_00: Even to this day, we still misunderstand God and say things about God that are really terrible.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: when it comes to the Old Testament,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's so much grace there,
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  SPEAKER_00: but there's also a lot of misunderstanding about how God's grace works in the world.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so when there are things,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the Old Testament that seem to contradict who God is,
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  SPEAKER_00: we need to step back and ask,
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  SPEAKER_00: is this God being contradictory or do people misunderstand who God is?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's always good to keep in mind.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: So let's imagine there are a lot of different, there are a lot of different,
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  SPEAKER_00: theories,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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  SPEAKER_00: about that moment when people stand before the presence of God's amazing grace,
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  SPEAKER_00: blinding grace.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there are those who are Christian universalists,
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  SPEAKER_00: in a sense,
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  SPEAKER_00: who believe that everybody will be saved,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they're not quite sure what that looks like.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are others who...
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  SPEAKER_00: They believe that there's not a hell.
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  SPEAKER_00: They just believe that those who don't believe in Jesus just cease to exist.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're gone.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they're not being tortured for the rest of their lives.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're just gone.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think scripture says something different.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to talk about that a little bit, especially because we still have this need.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, surely they're going to be punished somehow.
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  SPEAKER_00: Something has to happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I want to give a few examples of that, of where some people are.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are some people,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I get this,
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  SPEAKER_00: there are some people who say,
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is just going to stand up there and forgive them.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, we step back and say, wait a minute, wait a minute.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, something has to happen.
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  SPEAKER_00: But let's look at some examples from Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: When Jesus is hanging on the cross,
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  SPEAKER_00: he says,
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  SPEAKER_00: Father,
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  SPEAKER_00: forgive them because they don't know what they're doing.
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  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't call down hellfire and brimstone.
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  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't say, torture them a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: He just says, forgive them, period.
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  SPEAKER_00: People who put him on the cross.
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  SPEAKER_00: No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: He just forgives them.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the story of the woman caught in adultery,
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  SPEAKER_00: who has obviously sinned,
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  SPEAKER_00: and Jesus knows she's guilty,
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  SPEAKER_00: she knows she's guilty,
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus says,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't condemn you.
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  SPEAKER_00: No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't condemn you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, some will say, well, he tells her not to go and not sin anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course he tells her that.
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  SPEAKER_00: He says, basically saying, don't live that life anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: It breaks you.
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  SPEAKER_00: Live in grace now.
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  SPEAKER_00: Live as the child of God that you are.
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  SPEAKER_00: The prodigal son story.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Have I ever talked about that, John, with you, the prodigal son story?
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I've heard that one before, but I'm ready.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when the father runs to the prodigal son who has, remember now, this kid chooses to lose himself.
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  SPEAKER_00: He makes decisions that hurt his father, that hurt the community, that hurt himself.
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  SPEAKER_00: He basically removes himself from the grace of his father.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when he comes home, the father doesn't beat him up.
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  SPEAKER_00: The father doesn't say,
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  SPEAKER_00: sit in a corner and write down a hundred times on the whiteboard,
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  SPEAKER_00: I will not sin again.
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  SPEAKER_00: He just runs and gives him a hug.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it puts a robe on him and a ring on his finger,
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  SPEAKER_00: shoes on his feet,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then he throws a party for him.
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  SPEAKER_00: Nothing happens bad to that son.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's just welcomed in to the kingdom of God, so to speak, without repenting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in fact,
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  SPEAKER_01: a lot of great sermons preached about the brother who's seen this happen and saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: where's the justice here?
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been mucking out the stalls while this guy's been partying your money away.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so he's sort of us, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: He's looking at this.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's saying, Tim, you can't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's no way everybody's saved.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's no way everybody's just forgiven without having to go through something.
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  SPEAKER_00: But even that older brother who's desperately in need of grace has offered grace as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: And interestingly, in that story, it's the prodigal, it's the sinner who is drawn into the party.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's the religious guy who's still standing outside the door when the story ends.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the question is, is he going to go in or not?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not the sinner.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the righteous guy.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think that there is scripture to say that God forgives without punishing.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's just because forgiveness and punishment can't possibly go together.
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  SPEAKER_00: Punitive punishment can't go together.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not forgiveness if you punish someone.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so our Catholic friends have this thing called purgatory.
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  SPEAKER_00: where people could suffer the torments of hell, so to speak, until they worked off their sins.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, there's a sense of justice about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's probably a lot of us who would say, hey, I could go for that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But then it's not grace anymore.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's... I'm earning my salvation.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's, of course, what Luther rebelled against.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um...
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  SPEAKER_00: However,
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  SPEAKER_00: having said that,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: could it be that when people come face to face with this unfiltered grace for the
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: very first time,
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  SPEAKER_00: could it be that they have some sort of visceral response to it?
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'll tease that out a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um,
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  SPEAKER_00: The Bible talks from time to time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Remember now, when the Bible talks about God as judge, it's not punitive, it's restorative.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's always restorative.
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  SPEAKER_00: So God brings about justice by putting broken things back together, reconciling the world to himself.
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  SPEAKER_00: And one of the images that's used of that is the fire, the refiner's fire.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you put something into a fire to sort of burn off all of the impurities,
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  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
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  SPEAKER_00: so that what you have left is that pure silver,
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  SPEAKER_00: that pure gold.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there are some who look at scripture and say, is it possible that when someone stands before that
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  SPEAKER_00: amazing unfiltered grace for the first time that it,
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  SPEAKER_00: for them viscerally,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like going through that refiner's fire.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let me give you just a few examples that I've heard people use.
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  SPEAKER_00: One of them,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I think it was Brian McLaren who used this one,
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  SPEAKER_00: says,
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  SPEAKER_00: imagine that you have been living in a cave for,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: we'll just say three years.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've been living in a cave, no light at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is utter darkness.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is so dark.
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  SPEAKER_00: that you can't see your hand in front of your face.
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  SPEAKER_00: You've lived like that for three years.
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  SPEAKER_00: Finally,
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  SPEAKER_00: you're rescued and you come out into the sunlight,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is good and radiant and healthy for you,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the sunlight causes severe pain to your eyes when you first try to adjust to it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It almost seems like punishment, this gift of life and light.
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  SPEAKER_00: And is it possible
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  SPEAKER_00: that as people sort of come out of their darkness,
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  SPEAKER_00: as they stand before the throne of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: not the punitive throne,
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  SPEAKER_00: the restorative throne,
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  SPEAKER_00: and they see that bright light of grace for the first time,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's blinding to them,
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  SPEAKER_00: almost painful to them to see that their lives have been filled with such darkness
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  SPEAKER_00: when that light was available all the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the pain of that light is not punishment.
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: God's not punishing them.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just that process of them coming from that deep, dark place they were in into the light.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it may cause pain of regret.
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  SPEAKER_00: It may cause pain of shame.
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  SPEAKER_00: But do they have some sort of visceral reaction?
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm not saying it's punishment.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm saying it's sort of a response to that grace.
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  SPEAKER_00: like going through the refiner's fire,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of this stuff that was hanging on to me that was hurtful and disfigured or
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  SPEAKER_00: something just burned off.
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  SPEAKER_00: And is that a way of understanding one of the ways that some people might experience grace?
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  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back, for example, to the woman who was caught in adultery.
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  SPEAKER_00: We have no idea what her response was, but just imagine for a moment that an angry mob has ripped you
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  SPEAKER_00: out of the adultery bed.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you're right in the middle of SEX,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if our kids are listening,
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  SPEAKER_00: with a guy,
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  SPEAKER_00: and religious leaders have been standing around the tent watching,
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  SPEAKER_00: who knows how long,
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  SPEAKER_00: before they decide they want to pull you out of that position,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then take you out and stone you to death.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know your life is over.
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  SPEAKER_00: They're standing there with the rocks,
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  SPEAKER_00: and they bring you to the most famous religious leader of the day,
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  SPEAKER_00: Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: and he says,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't condemn you.
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  SPEAKER_00: In that moment,
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  SPEAKER_00: you could imagine her just breaking down in shame,
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  SPEAKER_00: in guilt,
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  SPEAKER_00: in disbelief,
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  SPEAKER_00: in joy,
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  SPEAKER_00: all of those emotions at once in the face of that kind of grace when she was
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  SPEAKER_00: offered only death and punishment.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Or think about the prodigal son who's coming home defiant to try to win over his
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  SPEAKER_00: life back and manipulate his dad.
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  SPEAKER_00: And his dad just comes and just throws grace at him and just won't let up.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the visceral response that he must have gone through,
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  SPEAKER_00: the refiner's fire that he must have gone through with that robe being put onto him
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  SPEAKER_00: and the shoes and the ring again.
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  SPEAKER_00: We don't see all that stuff happening, but it had to have been there.
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  SPEAKER_00: And probably many people who are listening to this podcast have had that experience
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  SPEAKER_00: where suddenly they stood before the grace of Jesus and it just broke them in a
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  SPEAKER_00: good sense.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, you just are so overwhelmed.
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  SPEAKER_00: I had that experience myself,
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  SPEAKER_00: just so overwhelmed with the grace of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: it almost just forced me to bend over and weep.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't a punishment.
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  SPEAKER_00: It didn't hurt.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was just so overwhelming, that love, that I could hardly hold it in.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, do people have some sort of visceral experience standing before Jesus?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Go ahead.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you were going to say also that this is supported a little bit in the
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: scripture when we talk a little bit about God asking us to,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: what is it,
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  SPEAKER_01: turn our face from him as he walks by because it's just,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be way too much for you to handle.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So Moses couldn't, Moses has this great experience where he can't see the face of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: He sees the back and even that is so amazing.
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  SPEAKER_00: He can hardly take it in.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then God, of course, comes to us filtered, so to speak, through Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: So one of the ways that people will talk about this experience,
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  SPEAKER_00: especially for those who maybe have lived less than human lives and then stand
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  SPEAKER_00: before Jesus who rehumanizes them,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: they go through this refiner's fire.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not punishment.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not God punishing them.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're not working off their sin.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just a moment where our inhumanity,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: stands before what real humanity looks like,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: and it just sort of has to burn off some of that stuff that we go through,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: metaphorically speaking.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is all metaphor.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's two other examples I want to give.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: One was really interesting.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: They said, is it possible that the experience that Ebenezer Scrooge goes through
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: is that experience of standing before Jesus after having lived a life that was
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: contrary to what God wants.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so his whole life flashes before him and it hurts.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's in pain at seeing what he has done and the man that he's become.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: He's not being punished.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's just seeing his life as it really was, as it really is through the lens of grace.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it, it's sort of,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: begins to tear down the old Scrooge, which is painful.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's purified through that example or that vision from the ghosts.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then having seen that grace over the course of whether it's three nights or
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: three hours or whatever it is,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: he comes out the other side,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: a new human being,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: reconciled,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: restored.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: my people go through that kind of an experience when they stand before Jesus and
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: they hear you're forgiven.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do one more and then we can chat about this.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is sort of a lengthy read.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this comes from C.S.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Lewis.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm not here to say that C.S.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Lewis was a Christian universalist.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that at all.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But whether he intended it or not,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: He has this brilliant piece of writing about what grace looks like when we encounter,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: in this case,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's Aslan the lion standing in for Jesus.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so here's the backstory.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'm going to read it because his writing is so amazing.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is from the Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is the part of the Chronicles of Narnia.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the Pevensie kids who are featured in the Chronicles of Narnia have a cousin by
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: the name of Eustace who ends up in Narnia.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Eustace is, he's not the nicest of kids.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he finds himself in a dragon's lair.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the dragon's lair has all of this wealth, all of these riches.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the greed bug hits him.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he sees this beautiful gold bracelet and he puts it onto his arm.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: And he falls asleep on the dragon's lair, on the dragon's gold.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when he wakes up,
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: he discovers that he's been turned into a dragon.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: The greed turned him into a dragon.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And at first he thinks it's kind of cool until he realizes he's just been cut off
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: from everything that he loves.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's not going to be able to interact with his family anymore.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: He's not going to be able to interact with his friends.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: He is no longer human.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that bracelet that he put onto his arm that he thought was so great has now,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: his arm is bigger than the bracelet and it's cutting into him,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: causing him pain.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: What had brought him joy is now causing him pain.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So Lewis writes this beautiful scene when Eustace the dragon,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: who has now been dehumanized by his greed,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: comes face to face with Aslan and
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: who represents Jesus.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to read the whole thing.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little long, but it's so brilliantly written.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying Lewis believes in Christian universalism,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: but this is so well written in terms of what it's like to stand before the grace of
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus for the first time.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So he's telling his story now.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: He is back to being a human and he's telling a story to his cousin, Edmund.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And Edmund said, well, what happened?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And Eustace says, well, as I say, I was lying awake and wondering what on earth would become of me.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but mind you, it may have all been a dream.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Go on, said Edmund with considerable patience.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, anyway, I looked up and I saw the very last thing I expected, a huge lion coming slowly towards me.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: And one interesting thing was that there was no moon last night,
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: but there was moonlight where the lion was.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it came nearer and nearer.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was terribly afraid of it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: You may think that being a dragon,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: I could have knocked any lion out easily enough,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't that kind of fear.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't afraid of it eating me.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was just afraid of it, if you can understand.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: it came close up to me and looked straight into my eyes,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I shut my eyes tight,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: but that wasn't any good because it told me to follow it.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: You mean it spoke?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now that you mention it, I don't think it did.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: But it told me all the same, and I knew I'd have to do what it told me, and so I got up and followed it.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it led me a long way into the mountains.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there was always this moonlight over and around the lion wherever we went.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: So at last we came to the top of a mountain I'd never seen before.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of this mountain, there was a garden, trees and fruit and everything.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: In the middle of it, there was a well.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I knew it was a well because you could see the water bubbling up from the bottom of it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: But it was a lot bigger than most wells, like a very big round bath with marble steps going down into it.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: The water was as clear as anything.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought if I could get in there and bathe, it would ease the pain in my leg.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the lion told me I must undress first.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mind you, I don't know if he said any words out loud.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was just going to say that I couldn't undress because I hadn't any clothes on
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: when suddenly I thought that dragons are snaky sort of things and that snakes can
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: cast off their skin.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, oh, of course, thought I. That's what the lion means.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I started scratching myself and my scales began coming off all over the place.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then I scratched a little deeper.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of just scales coming off here and there,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: my whole skin started peeling off beautifully like it does after an illness or as
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: if I was a banana.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: In a minute or two, I just stepped out of it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I could see it lying there beside me rather nasty.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was the most lovely feeling.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I started to go down into the well for my bath.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: But just as I was going to put my feet in the water, I looked down and saw that
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: They were all hard and rough and wrinkled and scaly, just as they had been before.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's all right, I said.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: It only means I had another smaller suit under the first one.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to get that one out too.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I scratched and tore and this underskin peeled off beautifully and I stepped and
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: left it lying beside the other one and I went down as well for my bathe.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, exactly the same thing happened again.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought to myself, oh dear, how many skins do I have to take off?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: For I was longing to bathe my leg.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I scratched away for the third time and it got a third skin,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: just like the other two,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: and stepped out of it.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: But as soon as I looked at myself in the water, I knew it had been no good.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then the lion said, but I don't know if I spoke.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have to let me undress you.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was afraid of his claws, I can tell you, but I was pretty nearly desperate now.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I just laid down flat on my back and let him do it.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: The very first tear he made was so deep
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: that it had gone right into my heart.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I've ever felt.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: The only thing that made me able to bear it was just the pleasure of feeling that stuff peel off.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: if you've ever picked a scab of a sore place,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: it hurts Billy-o,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: but it's such fun to see it coming away.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know exactly what you mean, said Edmund.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: he peeled the beastly stuff off just as I thought I'd done it myself the other
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: three times,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: only they hadn't hurt.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there it was lying on the grass,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: only ever so much thicker and darker and more knobbly looking than the others had been.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And there I was as smooth and soft as a peeled switch and smaller than I'd been.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then he caught hold of me.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't like that much for I was very tender underneath now that I had no skin on
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: and threw me into the water.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: It smarted like anything, but only for a moment.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: After that, it became perfectly delicious.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as I started swimming and splashing, I found all the pain had gone away from my arm.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I saw why.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: I turned into a boy again.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: You'd think me simply phony if I told you how I felt about my arms.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know they've no muscle and are pretty moldy compared to Caspians, but I was glad to see them.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: After a bit, the lion took me out and dressed me.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: He dressed you with his paws?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know exactly.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: But he did something or other in new clothes, the same clothes I've got on now, as a matter of fact.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then suddenly I was back here, which is what makes me think it must have been a dream.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, it wasn't a dream, said Edmund.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, said Edmund, there are the clothes for one thing, and you have been well undragoned for another.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think it was then, asked Eustace.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think you've seen Aslan, said Edmund.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that an amazing story?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Of people who stand in their dragon suits before Jesus, and then Jesus says,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let me change those clothes for you.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it may be painful, but he's not causing the pain.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's not punishing you.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just all of that stuff that needs to be removed so Jesus can reconcile us.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it could be shame.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: It could be pain.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: It could be our addictions, whatever, the evil we've done.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: He just takes it all off.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: He bathes us and puts on these new clothes and says, welcome in.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I love how Edmund just summarized it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: You saw Aslan.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: That all happened because you saw Aslan.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So what happens when we see Jesus, Christian or non-Christian?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when we see Jesus and how we stand before that?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: We think we get it.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then we see it in all of its glory for the first time.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you understand why every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I say Jesus wins and grace wins.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, Tim, you will have to let me do it.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the interesting thing for Eustace at that point, he was all in, please, please, please.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it was an act of grace.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have to let me do that.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a because therefore, not an if then.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was a because therefore.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And Eustace said the only thing he could possibly say standing before that grace,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: please,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: in response to that grace.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so the question I want to ask, I've got lots of questions, but here's the big one.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: overly complicate things,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: but it all really basically comes back to my parenting.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, I'm going to use this opportunity.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what are the things that I,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: that I,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: and maybe other people do too with parent on is this idea that,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: that God,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: God's grace and forgiveness covers,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: your sins, but doesn't always erase the consequences of those.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and, you know, parenting, we don't usually use the sin word in that like a bludgeon.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: But we might say, hey, look, yeah, I'm going to help you with that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I, you know.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: You did eat two desserts today,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: and that means there's going to be no desserts for,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: that's just the consequences.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: How does that thinking, how is that dovetailing with what?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because quite clearly here, I mean, Aslan said, you're going to have to let me do it.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he did it.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no bracelet.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no trappings.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no, there was just overwhelming undescribing.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but Eustace had already experienced all the consequences of his actions.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: He brought them on himself.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: God didn't cause any of those to happen.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: There were consequences.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: He turned into a dragon.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: He was dehumanized.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: He had this great pain, and it was his arm, but it became his leg from his greed.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: He'd suffered the consequences.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we can look at people...
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: we always want to think of really evil people, which is easy.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: It makes it far easier to have the conversation.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: But just normal human beings,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: we all make decisions all the time that have consequences that hurt us or hurt others.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And those have nothing to do with God.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's not God's punishment.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's the consequences of our actions.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we want to teach our kids.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are consequences to your actions, good ones and bad ones.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you hit someone,
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to hurt them.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: They may hit you back.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you break something, you know, there are consequences to that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: So what we, one of the problems with hell is we start thinking about punishment rather than restoration.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: God doesn't punish.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: God restores.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: We make bad choices and we suffer the consequences and God restores.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's never about God punishing.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do bad things happen?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And most of them we can look at and say it's because somebody made a bad decision.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll probably talk about this somewhere down the line.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Why do bad things happen to good people?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: But just to go off on a tangent for a moment,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: when a drunk driver kills a little girl and we cry out,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: God,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: why did you let that happen?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: It had nothing to do with God.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: It had to do with that man who had too much alcohol to drink.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: God had nothing to do with that.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Where God enters in is in the moment of the pain and the suffering and the heartache.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: So consequences are not God's punishment.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Consequences are the result of our own decisions and behaviors.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus restores us and puts us back together through all of that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the ultimate will be when we stand before Jesus.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: uh stand there face to face and he's just he sees all these dragons standing in
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: front of him and he's just got a big smile on his face rolls up his sleeves and
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: said let me get at it let's do this yeah yeah
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of the proofs for me about this incredible grace is that you have stories like
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: this that just bring tears to your eyes.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I still believe it's just the absolute scratching the surface.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: of what's actually happening right if you talk about philip yancey's got some great
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: great and and you just can't you try to wrap your head around it and and we do here
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: in this podcast for a few minutes and then we're going to re-wrap our head around
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: it again later and it'll be the same result yep so we're going to be back with you
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: next time we'll probably have john back with us at least one more time because he
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: says he's got a bunch of questions yet because he's a lawyer
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we want to thank you all.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, John, for filling in.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's remember to pray for our friend Terry.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you missed the podcast last time, Terry's husband died over a month ago unexpectedly.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're giving her some room to try to get her life back together a little bit.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: You've been listening to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast with Tim Wright,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: normally Terry Summers,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: but with John D.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Burgess.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, everybody.