Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #380 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar Pt. 2

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#380 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar Pt. 2 · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: I would have gotten off easier had I killed five people.
0:08
Speaker 1: When I was presented with this deal, they say, if
0:10
Speaker 1: you plead guilty, you'll be going to parole boar in
0:13
Speaker 1: your early fifties. Well, I'm fifty three years old right
0:16
Speaker 1: now and still going to parole board. I'll fix an
0:19
Speaker 1: execution in less than six months. I would never spend
0:23
Speaker 1: the least thirty years aside the check of five at
0:26
Speaker 1: the beds, I went twenty years without touching my family.
0:29
Speaker 1: I've been on I don't know how many hunger strikes.
0:31
Speaker 1: I would never have to go through any of that
0:33
Speaker 1: had I played guilty through these crimes I didn't commit,
0:36
Speaker 1: or had I actually killed five people. But if I
0:38
Speaker 1: play guilty the murder even one a time, with the
0:41
Speaker 1: time on work, that's a hell of a deal for
0:43
Speaker 1: a mass murderer. But if you're still on your innocence,
0:46
Speaker 1: they said, oh you want to try, okay, if we're
0:48
Speaker 1: going to give you your trial.
0:51
Speaker 2: In part one of our coverage of Keith Lamark, we
0:53
Speaker 2: heard how he was offered a sentence that would run
0:55
Speaker 2: concurrent with the time he already had if he just
0:58
Speaker 2: agreed to plead guilty. Five of the ten murders that
1:01
Speaker 2: occurred during the Lucasville prison riot in nineteen ninety three.
1:06
Speaker 2: For refusing this deal, he faced a capital murder trial.
1:10
Speaker 2: Now we'll hear how law enforcement went through many rounds
1:13
Speaker 2: of interviews to find cooperating witnesses from the easily incentivized
1:17
Speaker 2: prison population to support their narrative that Keith had led
1:21
Speaker 2: or ordered other inmates to murder five men. We're going
1:25
Speaker 2: to examine how each witness drastically changed their stories from
1:28
Speaker 2: initial interviews to trial, what they stood to gain, as
1:31
Speaker 2: well as how the courts allowed prosecutors to withhold a
1:34
Speaker 2: vast trough of exculpatory evidence to ensure Keith Lamar's wrongful conviction.
1:53
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction and to Part two of
1:55
Speaker 2: Keith Lamar's story. If you haven't listened to part one,
1:58
Speaker 2: there's no time like the present. We now returned to
2:01
Speaker 2: our interviews with Keith and his attorney, Keith and Stephan,
2:03
Speaker 2: who is heading up Keith's latest and potentially his last,
2:06
Speaker 2: appellate effort. We previously left off talking about how four
2:10
Speaker 2: other men from two of the three factions involved in
2:12
Speaker 2: the Lucasville prison riot, the Aryan Brotherhood and Sunny Muslims
2:16
Speaker 2: are currently on death row along with Keith and how
2:18
Speaker 2: it appears that the third faction, the Black Gangster Disciples,
2:22
Speaker 2: made a deal with prosecutors Mark Pete Meyer and Seth
2:25
Speaker 2: Tiger for cooperation in all five trials in exchange for
2:28
Speaker 2: either leniency or all out immunity from their own actions.
2:32
Speaker 1: It's an open secret. I mean, it was an article
2:35
Speaker 1: that was written on the thirty of anniversary recently in
2:38
Speaker 1: Cincinnati Inquirer. And the prosecutors Mark Mark his own record
2:43
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, did I make the deal
2:45
Speaker 1: with the devil? Possibly? It is possible that the guy
2:48
Speaker 1: who maybe have blood on his hands is on the
2:51
Speaker 1: street right now. But that was the cars that we
2:53
Speaker 1: were dealt. You know, that's how it's just the system works.
2:56
Speaker 1: It's first come, first servant. You know. The guy who
2:59
Speaker 1: Mark Pete Mark was referred to in the article as
3:02
Speaker 1: Anthony LaVale. He was the leader of the Black Disciples.
3:06
Speaker 1: Basically everything I've read, everything I've heard, you know, because
3:09
Speaker 1: it's been thirty years, he was the one who was
3:11
Speaker 1: really responsible for most of the killings, including the Guard's death.
3:17
Speaker 2: And so it appears that the leadership of the Black
3:21
Speaker 2: Gangster Disciples, Anthony Lavelle, Stacy Gordon, as well as others
3:25
Speaker 2: who were actually involved in the deaths on the block,
3:28
Speaker 2: managed to avoid accountability by supporting the narrative that laid
3:31
Speaker 2: blame for all ten deaths on the other four men
3:34
Speaker 2: and of course Keith. So let's talk about the investigation
3:37
Speaker 2: led by Hamilton County prosecutors Mark Pete Meyer and Seth Tieger.
3:41
Speaker 2: We remember their names from other wrongful convictions, including Elwood Jones,
3:45
Speaker 2: who they were totally willing to send a death row
3:48
Speaker 2: even though they had scientific evidence of his innocence. So
3:53
Speaker 2: you could draw your own conclusions from that as well
3:55
Speaker 2: as what you're about to hear now. It struck me
3:58
Speaker 2: as odd that they were in this case because Hamilton
4:01
Speaker 2: County is nowhere near Lucasville Prison.
4:05
Speaker 1: Mark Pikemeyer, out of all the prosecutes in the state
4:07
Speaker 1: of Ohio, he was hand picked because of the record
4:10
Speaker 1: we now know he has. Because he can put you
4:14
Speaker 1: on death row with no appetence, he could manufacture the evidence,
4:17
Speaker 1: he could withhold the evidence. This is what his office
4:19
Speaker 1: was known for doing. So it wasn't randomly picked. He
4:22
Speaker 1: was specifically picked because he had those deals.
4:25
Speaker 3: It's pretty remarkable how many interviews they conducted and how
4:31
Speaker 3: uniform it is that almost all of the testifying witnesses
4:36
Speaker 3: followed the same arc. Initially they were not naming Keith
4:41
Speaker 3: Lamar or even affirmatively saying that Keith was not involved,
4:46
Speaker 3: and then over time as they gave more statements, started
4:50
Speaker 3: saying that Keith was involved and Keith was the leader
4:53
Speaker 3: of the Dusk squad. You know, that is suspicious to
4:56
Speaker 3: say the least. And then almost all the witnesses to
5:00
Speaker 3: some degree also received deals and have incredible credibility issues.
5:06
Speaker 2: So let's talk about those witnesses.
5:08
Speaker 3: The testifying witnesses against Keith were Robert Bass, Anthony Walker,
5:13
Speaker 3: Thomas Taylor, Stacy Gordon, Lewis Jones, Ricky Rutherford, and Michael Childers.
5:20
Speaker 3: Many of the witnesses were transferred to Oakwood, which was
5:24
Speaker 3: a much more favorable facility for incarcerated people. Even the
5:29
Speaker 3: witnesses themselves testified that the guards were catering to their needs,
5:33
Speaker 3: giving them unlimited supplies of cigarettes, unlimited supplies of the canteen,
5:37
Speaker 3: extra visitation jobs, and free range of movements.
5:40
Speaker 2: And being in this better situation together, the witnesses were
5:44
Speaker 2: also able to well get their stories straight right to coordinate.
5:49
Speaker 2: But more importantly, almost all of those testifying witnesses had
5:54
Speaker 2: everything to gain. I mean, some of them had flat
5:58
Speaker 2: out admitted to killing one or more of the victims,
6:00
Speaker 2: and then they just shifted blame aunt to Keith, saying
6:03
Speaker 2: that he made them do it.
6:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty shocking sort of Even on the state's
6:07
Speaker 3: own theory, there is stronger evidence that other people were
6:12
Speaker 3: more directly involved in the murders of each one of
6:16
Speaker 3: the people for whom Keith was ultimately convicted of killing.
6:19
Speaker 2: So Keith was charged with four murders from L Block,
6:22
Speaker 2: Daryl de Pina, Bruce Vittali, William Svetti, and Albert Staiano.
6:26
Speaker 2: But let's start with the one from K Block, Dennis Weaver.
6:30
Speaker 2: Keith told the story of how he was piled into
6:33
Speaker 2: this cell on K Block with nine other guys when
6:35
Speaker 2: a Sunni Muslim named William Bowling aka Shabaz killed a
6:39
Speaker 2: man named Dennis Weaver, along with two others Ricky Rutherford
6:43
Speaker 2: and Michael Childers, who ended up testifying that Keith had
6:46
Speaker 2: told them to do it.
6:47
Speaker 1: We've been able to find Apple Davis from one of
6:49
Speaker 1: the Muslims who was in the pot with William Bowley
6:52
Speaker 1: after Dennis was killed, and he encouraged William Bowley to
6:57
Speaker 1: say listen, just to say he made you do it.
6:59
Speaker 1: They all already saying about the Aos murders.
7:02
Speaker 2: And I have that two thousand and five AFFI davit
7:06
Speaker 2: right here from Abdul Mohammed Sadik, who said that he
7:09
Speaker 2: had been previously threatened by Dennis Weaver. And he continued
7:12
Speaker 2: in the affidavit talking about the time he spent in
7:15
Speaker 2: the same cell with William Bowling in the aftermath of
7:18
Speaker 2: the riot. Now Michael Childers was in a nearby cell
7:21
Speaker 2: as well. Sadik said that Shabbaz admitted to killing Weaver
7:24
Speaker 2: out of loyalty to him, a fellow Muslim whose life
7:27
Speaker 2: had been threatened by Weaver, a non Muslim. Sadik told Bowling,
7:31
Speaker 2: and this is a direct quote, that he should join
7:34
Speaker 2: with Childers and blame Lamar for the order, since Lamar
7:38
Speaker 2: was a non Muslim and he was being seen as
7:41
Speaker 2: a ring leader for other inmate murders.
7:43
Speaker 4: Anyway, end quote.
7:45
Speaker 1: And William Bowler when it came time to testified this mildrau,
7:48
Speaker 1: he refused to come right.
7:50
Speaker 2: But Michael Childers and Ricky Rutherford did testify. Kegan, what
7:54
Speaker 2: can you tell us about these two?
7:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Ricky testified, I think Keith was the leader
7:59
Speaker 3: of the desk squad, that Keith told him to tie
8:01
Speaker 3: up Weaver and that he did it, and then Keith
8:04
Speaker 3: told Childers to kill Weaver, which Childers did. Rutherford it
8:08
Speaker 3: was transferred to Oakwood where they were given preferential treatment,
8:12
Speaker 3: and was charged with an aggravated murder, but the charge
8:15
Speaker 3: was reduced to involuntary manslaughter and he received five to
8:19
Speaker 3: twenty five years, but it was sort of intentionally meant
8:22
Speaker 3: not to increase the time that he would serve. The
8:25
Speaker 3: state also promised to let his cooperation be known to
8:28
Speaker 3: the parole board, provide him with counsel for his appearance
8:31
Speaker 3: for the parole board, and make all of the transcripts
8:33
Speaker 3: available to him.
8:34
Speaker 2: So Rutherford admitted participating in Dennis Weaver's murder, completely remove
8:39
Speaker 2: William Bowling from the equation, and then for the small
8:43
Speaker 2: price of saying Keith made us do it, he received
8:46
Speaker 2: a better prison assignment and effectively no additional sentence for
8:50
Speaker 2: the murder.
8:51
Speaker 3: In addition, Rutherford is one of a couple testifying witnesses
8:54
Speaker 3: who suffered severe mental illness auditory, visual, and command hallucinations,
9:00
Speaker 3: but those records were never turned over to the defense.
9:02
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Okay, so what about Childers.
9:05
Speaker 3: Michael Childers first said that other incarcerated people tied Weaver up,
9:09
Speaker 3: and he said that he was told to kill Weaver,
9:11
Speaker 3: but when he went to do so, Weaver was already dead.
9:14
Speaker 3: Then ultimately he admitted to killing Weaver, but said that
9:17
Speaker 3: Keith told him to do so. Again, he was charged
9:21
Speaker 3: with murder but pled to involuntary manslaughter. Childers is another
9:24
Speaker 3: witness who was severely mentally ill. Medical records showed that
9:28
Speaker 3: he suffered hallucinations, and those medical records were not turned
9:31
Speaker 3: over the defence, so the defense could not argue to
9:33
Speaker 3: the jury that this person was not a credible witness.
9:36
Speaker 2: And again, the mental illness was the least of the
9:40
Speaker 2: credibility issues. Childers got a huge break and sentencing instead
9:44
Speaker 2: of murder, which is a capital evense involuntary manslaughter, which
9:48
Speaker 2: is what he was charged with in Ohio, means three
9:50
Speaker 2: to eleven years. You can see that's a deal. Well,
9:54
Speaker 2: he certainly didn't want to refuse all for the low
9:57
Speaker 2: low price of blaming Keith for his own act, alleging
10:00
Speaker 2: that he gave the order like some sort of prison
10:03
Speaker 2: gang leader like Anthony the Bell or Stacy Gordon of
10:06
Speaker 2: the Black Gangster Disciples for example. Now, Stacy Gordon actually
10:10
Speaker 2: testified against Keith.
10:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Stacy Gordon was one of the shot callers
10:15
Speaker 3: for the Black Gangster Disciples, is my understanding. He plainly
10:19
Speaker 3: admitted to helping to plan the uprising and to killing
10:22
Speaker 3: another incarcerated person, and yet was never charged for that.
10:27
Speaker 3: He was charged with assault on a corrections officer, but
10:31
Speaker 3: pled out and received three to five years to run
10:34
Speaker 3: concurrent with the sentence he was already serving. So he
10:36
Speaker 3: effectively sarned no time for this assault during an uprising
10:41
Speaker 3: that he admitted to planning.
10:43
Speaker 2: So he got no time for either the assault or
10:46
Speaker 2: the murder. Wow, all right, So what testimony did he
10:51
Speaker 2: give in exchange for this phenomenal sweetheart deal that.
10:54
Speaker 3: He got at trial? You know, Stacy Gordon is probably
10:57
Speaker 3: one of the more damning witnesses, and he described Keith
11:00
Speaker 3: as the leader of the death squad. Again, that's sort
11:03
Speaker 3: of suspicious because other people identify Stacy Gordon as the
11:07
Speaker 3: person doing a lot of the things that Keith Lamar
11:10
Speaker 3: was ultimately pegged for doing, which was opening the cells
11:15
Speaker 3: that the alleged snitches were caged in, which was in
11:18
Speaker 3: everybody's narrative, including the state's narrative, the step taken to
11:22
Speaker 3: lead to their executions. And it is in just direct
11:26
Speaker 3: contradiction to sworn testimony that he gave at his own
11:29
Speaker 3: guilty plea for the assault on the corrections officer where
11:33
Speaker 3: he was asked if he saw Keith in L six
11:35
Speaker 3: and said no.
11:37
Speaker 2: So it sounds like he subbed Keith in for himself
11:41
Speaker 2: in the state's narrative at Keith's trial, and then the
11:44
Speaker 2: rest of the witnesses appear to serve that goal. A
11:47
Speaker 2: guy named Robert Bass testified in addition to three more
11:50
Speaker 2: men who all appeared to have been part of the
11:52
Speaker 2: death squad, Lewis Jones, Anthony Walker, and Thomas Taylor. So
11:56
Speaker 2: let's start with Robert Bass.
11:58
Speaker 3: For Robert Bass, in particular, he did not bring up
12:01
Speaker 3: Keith's name on his own. The transcript shows that one
12:05
Speaker 3: of the interviewing troopers brought up Keith's name, and then
12:08
Speaker 3: Robert Bass started saying it back to the interviewer. And
12:12
Speaker 3: this is like a classic example of a fed fact
12:15
Speaker 3: that you know, Bass didn't actually testify to seeing anyone
12:20
Speaker 3: assaulted or killed, but he said that Keith was in
12:22
Speaker 3: L six, that Keith had a T shirt over his head,
12:25
Speaker 3: but was sure it was him. He also himself admitted
12:29
Speaker 3: to removing dead bodies from L six, but was never
12:32
Speaker 3: charged with any crime.
12:33
Speaker 1: Pobby bad So he was somebody who I was on
12:36
Speaker 1: speaking terms with, you know, doing a rise. He failed
12:39
Speaker 1: down the steps. He was drunk or something knocked all
12:41
Speaker 1: his teeth out. When he came to testify on he
12:44
Speaker 1: had all brand new Foster teeth. I mean he looked
12:46
Speaker 1: at twenty years younger. You know, he looked at me.
12:49
Speaker 1: He one of the guys had looked at the table one.
12:52
Speaker 1: I'm sorry he got he got released.
12:54
Speaker 2: He got an early release, man, So he got his
12:57
Speaker 2: teeth fixed as well as an early release in exchange
13:00
Speaker 2: for some super vague testimony saying that your head was
13:03
Speaker 2: covered but somehow he knew it was you. Maybe he
13:06
Speaker 2: was trying to make himself impeachable, sounds that way, But okay,
13:10
Speaker 2: four down, three to go. Let's move on to Lewis
13:14
Speaker 2: Jones Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor, and we're going to
13:17
Speaker 2: do this by going victim to victim in L Block,
13:20
Speaker 2: Bruce Vitali, William Spatty, Albert Steano, and Darryl Depina.
13:24
Speaker 3: For Daryl Depina. You know, there were other incarcerated people
13:27
Speaker 3: who made statements saying that Lewis Jones was the person
13:30
Speaker 3: who killed Darryl Doupina. Lewis jones statements changed dramatically over time.
13:35
Speaker 3: He admitted to being a part of the Desk Squad
13:37
Speaker 3: and listed everyone else involved, which is a sort of
13:41
Speaker 3: rare statement for someone to give off the bat for
13:44
Speaker 3: an incarcerated person, but he didn't name Keith. He said
13:47
Speaker 3: that the group was led by a black Muslim, Lamar
13:49
Speaker 3: was not a black Muslim, and then ultimately you know,
13:52
Speaker 3: testified that Lamar was the leader of the Desk Squad.
13:55
Speaker 3: Other incarcerated people identified Jones as being involved in not
14:00
Speaker 3: just the murder of Daryl Dipina, but Bruce Fatale. And
14:02
Speaker 3: despite that, despite him admitting that he was a member
14:06
Speaker 3: of the death Squad and knew everyone else involved and
14:10
Speaker 3: being implicated in two murders, he was never charged in
14:13
Speaker 3: connection with the uprising in any way.
14:16
Speaker 2: Wow, he named everybody in the death squad in his
14:18
Speaker 2: first interview and excluded Keith information that was hidden by
14:22
Speaker 2: the state, and then for his testimony he was transferred
14:25
Speaker 2: to Oakwood and was not charged for two murders, Daryl
14:28
Speaker 2: Topina and Bruce Fatally. And I understand that another individual,
14:32
Speaker 2: Aaron Jefferson, was named along with Lewis Jones for Darryldpina,
14:37
Speaker 2: and then there were additional people named in connection with
14:39
Speaker 2: Bruce Fatali's death.
14:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, so with Bruce Fatale there is not strong and
14:45
Speaker 3: credible evidence against Keith. However, there are other statements in
14:48
Speaker 3: the record that two other incarcerated people who are the
14:50
Speaker 3: actual people who killed Bruce, who were not charged with
14:53
Speaker 3: this crime.
14:54
Speaker 2: Now let's move on to the murder of William Speeddy.
14:56
Speaker 3: A person named Eric Curdie later admitted and pled killed
15:00
Speaker 3: to this had to give a calloquy about the details
15:03
Speaker 3: of the murder that had to be accepted by the court,
15:05
Speaker 3: and he specifically said that Keith was not involved. That
15:08
Speaker 3: would seem to be pretty important exculpatory evidence that should
15:12
Speaker 3: be a basis for Eversinis conviction, but the courts didn't
15:15
Speaker 3: see it that way.
15:16
Speaker 2: And in addition to Gertie. There were court filings naming
15:19
Speaker 2: three other individuals in Stetti's murder, Fred Frakes, Roger Snodgrass,
15:23
Speaker 2: and Brian Escridge, yet none of those alternative suspects were
15:27
Speaker 2: known to the jury or the defense. So moving on
15:30
Speaker 2: to Albert Steano for this one, the last two witnesses,
15:33
Speaker 2: Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor kind of tag teamed this one. Yeah.
15:37
Speaker 3: Walker initially told investigators that a number of people who
15:40
Speaker 3: participated in the beatings and murders in l Block, but
15:42
Speaker 3: said that Keith was not present. Ultimately, however, he said
15:45
Speaker 3: that Keith was involved, and so he just switched in
15:48
Speaker 3: Keith for other people in his narrative and ultimately testified
15:51
Speaker 3: that Keith was the leader of the desk squad. Keith
15:53
Speaker 3: handed someone about and told him too, when he had
15:55
Speaker 3: earlier said that was someone else entirely.
15:58
Speaker 2: So this is another time Keith was specifically excluded, but
16:01
Speaker 2: the state withheld it from the defense. And then Walker
16:05
Speaker 2: joined the crowd, swapping in Keith for the actual assailants
16:08
Speaker 2: in exchange for no charges for his own actions. Then
16:11
Speaker 2: Thomas Taylor testified to receiving and using the bat that
16:15
Speaker 2: Walker mentioned.
16:16
Speaker 3: So Thomas Taylor admitted to murdering Siano. He said that
16:20
Speaker 3: he alone hit the victim over the head with the
16:22
Speaker 3: bat repeatedly until the bat cracked, but he said that
16:25
Speaker 3: Keith told him to and yet Taylor was able to
16:27
Speaker 3: plead to in Terry manslaughter, while Keith received a capital
16:31
Speaker 3: murder charge and conviction.
16:32
Speaker 1: Pay were made about eight statements. In his first three
16:35
Speaker 1: statements he was now committed. The four statement he said
16:39
Speaker 1: he saw Keith Lamar is Stacy Gordon, he stay Gordons
16:42
Speaker 1: and leading the death squad and being his still statement.
16:46
Speaker 1: Stacy Gordon completely disappears from never till because State Gordon
16:50
Speaker 1: too had now become a staate's witness.
17:04
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17:09
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18:05
Speaker 4: We don't write people off.
18:13
Speaker 1: They took the group of prisoners and they put them
18:16
Speaker 1: in a private prisoner here in Ohio, and there they
18:19
Speaker 1: went over with script mark pem eight Thanksgiving dinner with
18:23
Speaker 1: these prisoners. They had movies, they had the free runner,
18:26
Speaker 1: the commissary, and he's saying witnesses would carried from trial
18:29
Speaker 1: to trial, saying the same story over and over again.
18:32
Speaker 1: And we're talking about a riot. We're talking about people
18:36
Speaker 1: being murdered with shovels and bats and knives. But it's
18:40
Speaker 1: also this very clean group of witnesses who were standing
18:43
Speaker 1: back watching the whole thing, going for murder to murder
18:47
Speaker 1: according to the state. But it wasn't a neat thing.
18:49
Speaker 1: It couldn't have been anything. It was a riot. Meanwhile,
18:52
Speaker 1: you know, the boots, my clothes when I came up
18:55
Speaker 1: the yard, all those things were burned.
19:00
Speaker 2: You can kind of see the reasoning for viewing evidence
19:02
Speaker 2: that had been on L Block for eleven day seed
19:04
Speaker 2: just not probative, but not so with the inmates on
19:08
Speaker 2: the yard or in K Block. And in the state's narrative,
19:10
Speaker 2: Keith was either ordering or leading the charge on several
19:13
Speaker 2: of these murders on L Block before returning to the yard.
19:16
Speaker 2: He didn't have a change of clothes. If he had
19:18
Speaker 2: anything to do with his desk squad, his boots and
19:21
Speaker 2: clothing clearly would have been covered and at least some
19:24
Speaker 2: of the victims DNA.
19:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would imagine you would think if I'm responsible
19:29
Speaker 1: for the deafer five people, you would think I would
19:31
Speaker 1: have some blood, some kind of you know, scratches on
19:34
Speaker 1: my body something.
19:35
Speaker 4: Yeah.
19:35
Speaker 3: The fact that they didn't save the clothing is more
19:38
Speaker 3: and more shocking. The state took that piece of evidence,
19:41
Speaker 3: probably the most crucial piece of evidence in this case
19:44
Speaker 3: and burned it.
19:45
Speaker 1: You know, there layers that stuff paper down, didn't this
19:47
Speaker 1: sweaver's throat and never presented the piece of paper with
19:51
Speaker 1: my DNA on it.
19:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, the paper that you allegedly stuffed down Dennis Weaver's
19:56
Speaker 2: throat to suffocate him. I mean that piece of alleged
19:59
Speaker 2: evidence and somehow magically disappeared as well, out of twenty two.
20:04
Speaker 1: Thousand pieces of evidence that was collected.
20:08
Speaker 2: And those weren't the only dirty tricks, right.
20:11
Speaker 1: They took my case to Clarens and Ohio ninety six
20:14
Speaker 1: percent white. They had paneled all white jewelry. But that
20:18
Speaker 1: was only the beginning. They want to do this very
20:21
Speaker 1: one way discovery.
20:23
Speaker 2: You know, when I first read about this pre trial
20:26
Speaker 2: discovery process, I was dumbfounded as to how this was
20:29
Speaker 2: allowed to happen. The prosecution had amassed hundreds of interviews,
20:34
Speaker 2: but when Keith's attorneys made the request for any exculpatory evidence,
20:38
Speaker 2: you know, saying that Keith wasn't involved, first they objected.
20:42
Speaker 3: The prosecutors objected saying, you know, it's going to be
20:45
Speaker 3: hard to satisfy their constitutional requirement to find all of
20:50
Speaker 3: the exculpatory material in their mountains of evidence. That's obviously
20:54
Speaker 3: not an excuse. But the judge accepted that justification and
20:58
Speaker 3: said turnover what you can. And what followed was the
21:00
Speaker 3: prosecutor saying, you know, we don't want to turn over
21:04
Speaker 3: all of the statements with the names attached, because we
21:08
Speaker 3: think that that could put some of the incarcerated people's
21:11
Speaker 3: safety in jeopardy. And so they got together the statements
21:14
Speaker 3: that they deemed exculpatory, and the judge read them into
21:19
Speaker 3: the record, and without the names.
21:20
Speaker 2: Attached, there's a bit to unpack about what you just said.
21:23
Speaker 2: They handed over what they deemed exculpatory and with what
21:28
Speaker 2: we've already examined here left out some absolute fucking whoppers.
21:33
Speaker 2: And then I understand the defense was given a list
21:37
Speaker 2: of forty three names that were not matched up with
21:40
Speaker 2: the statement summaries that the prosecution actually did provide for
21:43
Speaker 2: the judge to read into the record. And then most
21:47
Speaker 2: if not all, of those forty three men wouldn't cooperate
21:51
Speaker 2: with Keith defense.
21:52
Speaker 3: If the witness statements is are not attached to names,
21:55
Speaker 3: so you can't cross examine the testifying witnesses and can't
21:58
Speaker 3: go interview and call witnesses of your own that have
22:01
Speaker 3: testimony that is helpful for you, then those disclosures are
22:04
Speaker 3: not satisfying the purpose of Brady's are not allowing you
22:07
Speaker 3: to present a defense.
22:09
Speaker 2: And what Pete Meyer later admitted at a federal habeas
22:12
Speaker 2: hearing in two thousand and seven was that they used
22:14
Speaker 2: an impossibly narrow standard to deem a statement exculpatory. Essentially,
22:19
Speaker 2: he said that since these were group murders, if Keith
22:23
Speaker 2: was not specifically excluded, then it does not exclude Keith.
22:27
Speaker 2: But we know from examining the interview transcripts that they
22:30
Speaker 2: didn't even satisfy their own standard. Lewis Jones and Anthony
22:34
Speaker 2: Walker both specifically excluded Keith. Stacy Gordon's testimony and his
22:40
Speaker 2: assault charge proceeding also excluded Keith, but this was all
22:44
Speaker 2: still hidden from the defense despite meeting this very narrow
22:49
Speaker 2: Brady's standard.
22:50
Speaker 3: Again, the purpose of Brady, the reason you get exculpatory
22:53
Speaker 3: material is so that you can present a defense. Anybody
22:57
Speaker 3: looking at that today, any lawyer, any judge, would say
22:59
Speaker 3: that doesn't satisfy Brady.
23:01
Speaker 2: So with these built in constitutional violations, Keith went to
23:06
Speaker 2: trial with the judge having read these statement summaries unattached
23:10
Speaker 2: to names into the record, the ones that pete Meyer
23:13
Speaker 2: and Tiger deemed exculpatory, and the statement summaries varied from
23:17
Speaker 2: useless to speculative to actually exculpatory. For example, referring to
23:22
Speaker 2: an alleged witness of Dennis Weaver's death in cell K
23:25
Speaker 2: two thirty six, quote, he was in a cell adjoining
23:29
Speaker 2: K two thirty six, but gave no useful information end quote.
23:33
Speaker 2: Another example quote, he was in an adjoining cell to
23:37
Speaker 2: K two thirty six and heard a commotion and thought
23:39
Speaker 2: Weaver hung himself end quote. And then the actually useful
23:43
Speaker 2: exculpatory material quote, he observed Eskridge kill Seedti in l
23:48
Speaker 2: Carder end quote. Now, if you remember, there were four
23:52
Speaker 2: men associated with Sveetti's death, Eskridge, Frakes, Snodgrass, and Gerdy,
23:58
Speaker 2: the last of which ultimately confess that excluded Keith. So
24:01
Speaker 2: this is the total extent of the material that was
24:04
Speaker 2: shared with the defense, along with a list of forty
24:06
Speaker 2: three names of possible sources for those statements. The defense, meanwhile,
24:11
Speaker 2: was expected to go to trial blindfolded with both hands
24:14
Speaker 2: tied behind their backs, but even still they did present
24:18
Speaker 2: an alibi.
24:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, Keith testified and had a number
24:22
Speaker 3: of defense witnesses Kurt Ayers, Ronnie Eugene Foreman, or Foot's
24:27
Speaker 3: Corey Perkins, William Washington, also known as Gino, and Christopher
24:32
Speaker 3: Eugene Williams. Basically all of the defense witnesses corroborated Keith's story.
24:37
Speaker 3: Like in so many wrongful convictions and exonerations, you know,
24:41
Speaker 3: the defendant had a bunch of alibi witnesses. They all
24:45
Speaker 3: seemed credible. They all confirmed his story. They said that
24:48
Speaker 3: he was in the yard during the time when the
24:51
Speaker 3: murders occurred.
24:52
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, once again, without knowing everything we laid out earlier
24:56
Speaker 2: about the witnesses, or even with the for cocta discovery
24:59
Speaker 2: that did get the jury was primed to buy the
25:02
Speaker 2: state's narrative, and with the exception of Robert Bass, all
25:07
Speaker 2: of them testified, transferring the blame for their own crimes
25:11
Speaker 2: right to Keith. And since all of the physical evidence
25:14
Speaker 2: had been destroyed, there was no way to either confirm
25:17
Speaker 2: more than I had.
25:18
Speaker 1: Because they did. At one point, wrote a whole bunch
25:20
Speaker 1: of wheelbarrows and shovels and fire extinguishers wrapped in plastic,
25:25
Speaker 1: given a jury the impression that these are the murder weapons,
25:28
Speaker 1: hammers and shanks and all this shit wrapped in plastic,
25:32
Speaker 1: as if they had did a meticulous investigation. She didn't
25:36
Speaker 1: have anything to do with anything, you know, but no
25:38
Speaker 1: one was there to see that throughout the whole trial
25:41
Speaker 1: was last a month. There was no one in the gallery,
25:44
Speaker 1: you know, it was empty and Sorryfarmacuilge. I went back
25:47
Speaker 1: to Luca's feel for money. I came back to centencing
25:50
Speaker 1: and I had, you know, writtenly memorized this little speech
25:53
Speaker 1: that I wanted to say, and I came out to
25:56
Speaker 1: the court room and it was about three hundred white
25:58
Speaker 1: people spending it and Suice man in easter Cross, I mean,
26:03
Speaker 1: and it was standing room on me and I haven't
26:06
Speaker 1: seen iconic pictures in the eighteen hundred and seventeen hundreds
26:10
Speaker 1: of black people being lensed and you had this big gathering,
26:13
Speaker 1: you big swarm of white people standing around with ties on.
26:18
Speaker 1: It was the same thing. And when I seen them
26:21
Speaker 1: pictures a couple of years later, I knew i'd seen
26:24
Speaker 1: that before. I said, you know, I wouldn't stand I
26:26
Speaker 1: was a part of that. I know what that is.
26:29
Speaker 1: That's unless why the most important thing I've learned is
26:50
Speaker 1: that who I am it's more important than what I am.
26:53
Speaker 1: And if I am who I say I am, it
26:56
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter where I am, I under still
26:59
Speaker 1: be who I am. I mean, I'm inn a fucked
27:01
Speaker 1: up situation. There's no way to sugarcoat that has after
27:03
Speaker 1: side taking fun for all these years. But I am
27:06
Speaker 1: not the situation. The situation is fucked up. I'm not
27:08
Speaker 1: fucked up. I make sure that I'm not fucked up.
27:12
Speaker 1: I have a routine. I've learned how to meditate. When
27:14
Speaker 1: I was in my early twenties and I was lucky Jason,
27:16
Speaker 1: I met and was meant to buy some very remarkable
27:19
Speaker 1: men here in person five figures. One was my boxing coach,
27:22
Speaker 1: and the other guy named Guy was like a philosopher, poet,
27:26
Speaker 1: you know, kind of turned me onto a lot of
27:28
Speaker 1: literature and was like a therapist as well, can to
27:32
Speaker 1: help me deal with some of the trauma. And then
27:34
Speaker 1: when I arrived on Defrow, I met another older guy
27:37
Speaker 1: named Snoop, who I reference in the music in the
27:39
Speaker 1: album that we put out, the few first album. You know,
27:42
Speaker 1: he's meant to it showed me how to do yoga,
27:44
Speaker 1: how to actually live, and you know I was able
27:47
Speaker 1: to pursue myself even in this little space. You know,
27:50
Speaker 1: I started developing my inner life. You know, I've origin
27:54
Speaker 1: in their life. You know, I've read, you know, close
27:56
Speaker 1: two thousand.
27:56
Speaker 2: Books, man, and I have to ask of the those
28:00
Speaker 2: the two thousand books that you've read, which one had
28:03
Speaker 2: the most profound impact on you.
28:04
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that I was given to
28:07
Speaker 1: understand that if I wanted to change my situation, I
28:09
Speaker 1: had to learn how to write my mind. So I
28:11
Speaker 1: dropped out of school in tenth grade. And so one
28:14
Speaker 1: of the books that I read that taught me how
28:15
Speaker 1: to write was Richard Wright's Black Boy. I read that
28:18
Speaker 1: book every day for you know, a few years. I
28:21
Speaker 1: was reading with the intent of learning how to write,
28:24
Speaker 1: and so reading that is how I ultimately became a
28:27
Speaker 1: writer myself and wrote my memoir. Condemned was chronical, you know,
28:32
Speaker 1: my journey through the criminal justice system on death row.
28:35
Speaker 2: This is the most important part of the story in
28:37
Speaker 2: my opinion. Right, of course, I'm talking about your poetry,
28:42
Speaker 2: your performances, music writing. Wrote Condemned, as I understand it,
28:48
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement on a typewriter a few pages at
28:52
Speaker 2: a time, right, and dictated it. Every morning I telephoned
28:55
Speaker 2: to somebody who transcribed each and every word. You founded
28:58
Speaker 2: a literacy program, learned to play yoga, meditation. I mean,
29:02
Speaker 2: I think most people are listening and trying to think
29:04
Speaker 2: which people from their life, you know, friends circle has
29:08
Speaker 2: accomplished what you've accomplished.
29:10
Speaker 1: And I'm doing the same that you are trying to
29:12
Speaker 1: do a cason that you know anybody else trying to do.
29:15
Speaker 1: You're trying to make the most out of your want
29:17
Speaker 1: and only life. And the circumstances are different, yes, but
29:21
Speaker 1: the goal is to say, is to do something right
29:24
Speaker 1: just with my life.
29:25
Speaker 4: Tell us what is Native Sons.
29:27
Speaker 2: That's a literacy program that you founded.
29:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lizia, you know Richard Wright, as I said, man
29:32
Speaker 1: had a big impact on my life, not just on
29:35
Speaker 1: my writing, but just on how to engage with life.
29:39
Speaker 1: And I just thought that if I had read that
29:42
Speaker 1: book when I was thirteen in the Juvenile that it
29:45
Speaker 1: probably would have changed something in terms of my self
29:50
Speaker 1: concept and how I look at life. And so I
29:53
Speaker 1: just started reading with high school students in the inner
29:55
Speaker 1: cities here in Ohio and New York City, and it's
30:00
Speaker 1: really really a reward and experience.
30:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible. It's kind of like you're reaching back
30:05
Speaker 2: almost like trying to help your younger self and You've
30:09
Speaker 2: been doing that and so much more with one of
30:12
Speaker 2: the unsung heroes of your story, Amy Gordeyev. She helps
30:16
Speaker 2: facilitate the literacy program events. She's the person that transcribed
30:19
Speaker 2: your memoir Condemned over the phone, as well as advocated
30:23
Speaker 2: for you to us and Leah Rothman of The Real
30:26
Speaker 2: Killer podcast. She's also the person that facilitates what you
30:30
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, and I'm talking about Freedom First, which started
30:33
Speaker 2: as a concert series with New York based jazz musicians
30:37
Speaker 2: and you on the phone from death Row sharing poetry
30:39
Speaker 2: and spoken word. You've done shows literally like it seems like,
30:44
Speaker 2: all over the world from your cell. It's really incredible
30:48
Speaker 2: what you've been able to accomplish.
30:50
Speaker 1: You know, because I have time. You know. These people
30:52
Speaker 1: have keeven me time, you know, and given me really
30:55
Speaker 1: a gift of time.
30:57
Speaker 2: It's truly amazing to hear your perspective, and I believe
31:00
Speaker 2: if I could come around to it being a gift
31:04
Speaker 2: if not for the fact that you have to also
31:06
Speaker 2: spend that gift of time fighting for your freedom and
31:09
Speaker 2: your life, your very life. So let's turn to your appeals.
31:13
Speaker 2: There were a number of potential constitutional violations, like whether
31:17
Speaker 2: or not some jurors were excluded due to racial bias,
31:20
Speaker 2: But the main issue was and is, the withholding of
31:24
Speaker 2: exculpatory evidence. But this issue is kind of split into
31:27
Speaker 2: two parts. The first whether or not the way in
31:30
Speaker 2: which the information that was shared with the defense that
31:33
Speaker 2: trial constituted or Brady violation, the landmark Supreme Court case
31:37
Speaker 2: that ruled that the state must turn over all evidence
31:40
Speaker 2: that might exonerate the defendant. And if you remember, the
31:43
Speaker 2: judge read statement summaries detached from their sources.
31:47
Speaker 3: The appellate court said these statements were turned over. That
31:50
Speaker 3: ignores the fact that they were turned over in such
31:52
Speaker 3: a way that they couldn't satisfy the very basic premise
31:56
Speaker 3: of Brady, that they're turned over in a way to
31:59
Speaker 3: defend yourself.
32:00
Speaker 2: Right, how was he supposed to defend himself with these
32:03
Speaker 2: sort of phantom statements with no names attached. So how
32:07
Speaker 2: did the ruling get around that obviously clearly logical conclusion.
32:11
Speaker 3: They said that they weren't exculpatory, which sort of follows
32:15
Speaker 3: the prosecutor's very narrow definition of Brady, which is that
32:19
Speaker 3: they weren't exculpatory because they said that other people did it,
32:22
Speaker 3: but they didn't say that Keith didn't do.
32:24
Speaker 2: It, which is patently ridiculous. There were plenty of people
32:28
Speaker 2: in that prison eight hundred and nineteen, to be exact,
32:31
Speaker 2: and they weren't specifically excluded either. And so what did
32:34
Speaker 2: the court say to address that?
32:36
Speaker 3: They said it wasn't material under Brady, and material under
32:40
Speaker 3: Brady is effectively, if it wouldn't have changed the outcome
32:42
Speaker 3: of trial, then it's not material. And so we don't
32:45
Speaker 3: need to reverse a conviction based on the fact that
32:48
Speaker 3: these statements weren't turned over in a usable fashion.
32:51
Speaker 2: So that refers to what Pete Meyern Tiger did turn
32:53
Speaker 2: over a trial. And then comes the second Brady issue,
32:56
Speaker 2: the exculpatory evidence that was withheld from the defense and
32:59
Speaker 2: later discovered by two attorneys who were appointed to handle
33:02
Speaker 2: Keith's federal appeal, Kate McGarry and David Dawton. Now they
33:07
Speaker 2: turned up the initial witness statements that we revealed earlier,
33:11
Speaker 2: and at least two of those satisfy even the very
33:14
Speaker 2: narrow thread the needle Brady standard that Pete Meyer and
33:17
Speaker 2: Tiger devised. Anthony Walker and Lewis Jones both named everyone
33:22
Speaker 2: in the death squad and specifically excluded Keith. And then
33:26
Speaker 2: there's the statement about Stacy Gordon.
33:28
Speaker 3: There were statements from other incarcerated people saying that Gordon
33:31
Speaker 3: opened the cells that the alleged Niches were placed in
33:35
Speaker 3: and was the leader of the death squad, which is
33:37
Speaker 3: basically what Keith was convicted of. Gordon himself admitted to
33:41
Speaker 3: killing another incarcerated person.
33:42
Speaker 2: And then was never charged with that murder, but rather
33:45
Speaker 2: with assault of a corrections officer with a sentence to
33:48
Speaker 2: run concurrent by the way, with the time he already had,
33:52
Speaker 2: and then at that assault proceeding, Gordon specifically excluded Keith.
33:57
Speaker 3: So that is again very clear material Brady evidence.
34:01
Speaker 2: But the state courts heard all of that and didn't
34:04
Speaker 2: think even one juror would have thought it mattered at
34:07
Speaker 2: the time, even though that's all it takes to change
34:09
Speaker 2: an outcome of trial exactly.
34:12
Speaker 1: I was told not to suspect any release from the
34:14
Speaker 1: state courts. I thought I will receive release once I
34:18
Speaker 1: got to the federal court. And the only one out
34:20
Speaker 1: of all the Lucasville prisoners who were granted every ditionary
34:24
Speaker 1: hearing wom been back in two thousand and seven. I
34:26
Speaker 1: believe it was and put Mark.
34:28
Speaker 2: Pete Myer on the stand, and this was when he
34:30
Speaker 2: came clean about the impossibly narrow standard by which they
34:33
Speaker 2: deemed something exculpatory.
34:35
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, it's a it's a strange thing that
34:38
Speaker 3: the courts did in reviewing those statements.
34:41
Speaker 4: Right.
34:41
Speaker 3: They bought Pete Meyer's logic and said that if a
34:46
Speaker 3: statement said that some people committed the murder but didn't
34:50
Speaker 3: directly exclude Keith, then it wasn't exculpatory, okay.
34:54
Speaker 2: But Pete Meyer and Tiger did withhold statements that were
34:57
Speaker 2: not absolved by this ridiculous standard, statements that did specifically
35:02
Speaker 2: exclude Keith. And yet the federal and state courts both
35:06
Speaker 2: did the same thing, saying that the statements from Anthony Walker,
35:10
Speaker 2: Lewis Jones, and Stacy Gordon wouldn't have made a difference
35:13
Speaker 2: at trial. So Keith's habeas was denied in twenty eleven,
35:17
Speaker 2: as was the appeal in twenty fifteen, and in twenty sixteen,
35:21
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court denied Sir Tierrari, refusing to review the
35:24
Speaker 2: evidence and the lower court's decision. Separately, there's been an
35:27
Speaker 2: ongoing legal battle over the lethal.
35:30
Speaker 4: Injection protocol in America.
35:32
Speaker 2: Essentially, the rest of the world is so disgusted by
35:36
Speaker 2: us that they've been trying to starve us of the
35:38
Speaker 2: drugs that were deemed to be quote humane, a ridiculous
35:42
Speaker 2: word for this, and approved thereby for use in our
35:45
Speaker 2: lethal injection protocols. I'm talking about sodium thiopental or pentobarbital,
35:52
Speaker 2: the anesthetic acting as the first drug in the three
35:55
Speaker 2: drug cocktail. By twenty fourteen, states began to run out
35:58
Speaker 2: of the drug, and so they started looking for alternatives
36:00
Speaker 2: like medazzlam, which then triggered legal challenges from those facing
36:05
Speaker 2: their death penalty. The thing is with medazzelam. In many cases,
36:10
Speaker 2: the condemned have suffered and writhed in agony on the
36:13
Speaker 2: gurney for the better part of an hour, which one
36:17
Speaker 2: would think would constitute a violation of the Eighth Amendment
36:20
Speaker 2: ban on cruel and Unusual punishment, but our current Supreme
36:24
Speaker 2: Court did not agree. However, this long legal battle over
36:27
Speaker 2: the injection protocol did have the positive effect of halting executions,
36:32
Speaker 2: even if only temporarily in the meantime. For Keith, after
36:36
Speaker 2: his federal habeas was denied, he fired his attorneys and
36:39
Speaker 2: his case was given to the Tennessee Federal Defenders. But
36:42
Speaker 2: with Medazzelam cleared for use by the Supreme Court the
36:45
Speaker 2: United States, various states that still have capital punishment began
36:49
Speaker 2: setting execution dates again, including Ohio, which caused an imminent
36:55
Speaker 2: and very real threat to Keith's life that has since
36:57
Speaker 2: been averted. And we'll get to that in a minute,
36:59
Speaker 2: but first let's get to the Tennessee Federal Defenders.
37:02
Speaker 3: The Tennessee Federal Defenders took over the case. They did
37:05
Speaker 3: successfully get access to additional files that the Appellate Council
37:10
Speaker 3: did not have access to. We're now going to be
37:12
Speaker 3: reviewing those. They were going to attempt to bring an
37:15
Speaker 3: actual innocence claim. They recognized that it needed to happen
37:18
Speaker 3: in state court first, but their jurisdiction is limited to
37:21
Speaker 3: federal court, so they were not able to make that motion.
37:24
Speaker 3: So since then, you know, Keith has needed someone to
37:26
Speaker 3: come in who would be able to make a motion
37:29
Speaker 3: in state court to bring in any newly discovered evidence.
37:32
Speaker 2: And that's where you and the team at belldoc Levine,
37:35
Speaker 2: and Hoffman come in.
37:36
Speaker 3: Yes, so David Singleton at the Ohio Justice and Policy
37:40
Speaker 3: Center is our local council. And then we're also working
37:43
Speaker 3: with Joshua Jack Jones at Northwestern Law School. We've now
37:47
Speaker 3: gotten all the materials from the Tennessee Federal Defenders the
37:50
Speaker 3: process of digitizing all of that. We have an army
37:53
Speaker 3: of attorneys and student attorneys now that are going to
37:56
Speaker 3: be reviewing it in tandem, using the coding system to
37:58
Speaker 3: bubble everything up to get to the attorneys that'll be
38:01
Speaker 3: writing the brief.
38:03
Speaker 2: So there are still some promising legal avenues available along
38:07
Speaker 2: with the potential for additional exculpatory material that you have already.
38:10
Speaker 2: And now Governor Dwine has granted Keith a reprieve. It's
38:15
Speaker 2: cold comfort, but still and it's insane that it ever
38:18
Speaker 2: got this close. But Keith had a scheduled execution date
38:23
Speaker 2: of November sixteen, twenty twenty three. But now his team
38:26
Speaker 2: has a real chance to litigate his case and we
38:29
Speaker 2: are hoping against hope that justice delayed will not be
38:33
Speaker 2: justice denied. So what can our audience do to.
38:37
Speaker 1: Help and go to my website Keima dot org or
38:40
Speaker 1: follow me on Facebook, Justice PIMW just petition on those
38:45
Speaker 1: various pages that you can you can sign as submitted
38:48
Speaker 1: to the government, just to indicate to him, how many
38:50
Speaker 1: people are aware of my situation, who are watching the
38:55
Speaker 1: decisions that he makes in regard to my situation?
38:58
Speaker 2: All right, We're going to have actions steps linked in
39:00
Speaker 2: the bio. It's important to note that Justice for Keith
39:03
Speaker 2: Lamar is a nonprofit five oh one c three. There
39:06
Speaker 2: will also be ways that you can delve even deeper
39:09
Speaker 2: into this case, including another podcast, the entire second season
39:13
Speaker 2: of The Real Killer with journalists and host Leah Rothman.
39:16
Speaker 2: We're also going to link to Keith's book, his upcoming shows,
39:21
Speaker 2: and how you can experience his work and get involved.
39:24
Speaker 2: So with that, we come to my very favorite part
39:27
Speaker 2: of the show, closing arguments. First of all, I think
39:30
Speaker 2: each of you. Then I'm going to kick back in
39:33
Speaker 2: my chair, turn my microphone off and leave my headphones on,
39:36
Speaker 2: probably close my eyes and just listen for anything else
39:40
Speaker 2: you want to share with me and our incredible audience.
39:43
Speaker 2: So Keegan On, don't you go first? Then Keith, you'll
39:46
Speaker 2: take us hop into the sunset.
39:48
Speaker 3: Keith is innocent and at minimum he did not receive
39:52
Speaker 3: a fair trial. He needs to finally get a fair
39:56
Speaker 3: look at his case by a court. You know, I
39:58
Speaker 3: think Keith has said it best. He's not asking any
40:01
Speaker 3: attorney to promise that he will get exonerated. He wants
40:05
Speaker 3: us to create a document that lays out his story,
40:09
Speaker 3: shows just how many constitutional violations occurred in his trial,
40:16
Speaker 3: just how much exculpatory evidence there is, and put that
40:20
Speaker 3: in front of a judge and make a judge look
40:22
Speaker 3: at all of that and say we're going to put
40:24
Speaker 3: you to death. Anyway, Keith wants his story out there.
40:28
Speaker 3: He wants, if he's executed, this to be something that
40:32
Speaker 3: people look back on and say, look, that shows just
40:35
Speaker 3: how inhuman this system was, just how doomed this civilization was,
40:39
Speaker 3: that it would put people to death based on trials
40:42
Speaker 3: that were egregiously unfair. And I think that Keith's trial
40:46
Speaker 3: was egregiously unfair, and we're coming in to try to
40:49
Speaker 3: write that. Unfortunately, our only method of writing that is
40:52
Speaker 3: to find new evidence outside of that trial, get back
40:55
Speaker 3: into court, exonerate Keith and Stay's execution.
40:59
Speaker 1: As I'm talking about all this shit, it's a lie too, man,
41:01
Speaker 1: that you know, the kind of you know, if you
41:04
Speaker 1: didn't have the statements, if they threw away all the
41:07
Speaker 1: statements like they did, threw away all the physical evidence,
41:09
Speaker 1: no one would be leave this story but the law
41:11
Speaker 1: and behold the mount of evidence. You know, all this shit.
41:15
Speaker 1: So for no other reason, the world want to know
41:18
Speaker 1: about this, what happened to me, what they did to me.
41:20
Speaker 1: And it might be, you know, I might find myself
41:23
Speaker 1: strapped to a guarney. But it won't be because I
41:25
Speaker 1: want to death row and laid down and watch their
41:28
Speaker 1: color television. It won't be because I sat down in
41:30
Speaker 1: that cell and then opened up a legal book that
41:33
Speaker 1: I didn't do everything that I possibly could in furtherance
41:36
Speaker 1: of my own life. And it won't be because the
41:38
Speaker 1: public didn't know about what it did. But that's what
41:41
Speaker 1: this podcast is about. That's what the book is about,
41:43
Speaker 1: that's what the documentary about. That's all what that's all about.
41:47
Speaker 1: They won't be able to call this justice.
41:49
Speaker 3: Now.
41:49
Speaker 1: I might not be previct them from executing me. These
41:53
Speaker 1: people have been killing they're good, and that their assisting
41:56
Speaker 1: at executing people, lensing people. And I was trying the
42:00
Speaker 1: ranks of my ancestors. That's how I look at that
42:02
Speaker 1: and sit there. That happened. I'm doing everything to prevent
42:05
Speaker 1: that from happening, you know, But one thing for so
42:08
Speaker 1: they won't be able to call this justice though, and
42:10
Speaker 1: that's my goal. And so I'm retrying my case in
42:13
Speaker 1: the court of public opinion. And it's a hard sale
42:16
Speaker 1: until you read the evidence. You know you haven't right
42:19
Speaker 1: there in your hand. You know I didn't have that.
42:21
Speaker 1: A jury didn't see that, not that it would have
42:23
Speaker 1: made a difference. But we live in a different era now,
42:26
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that people in the day's era, after
42:31
Speaker 1: seeing George Floyd a retard, and Breonna Taylor and so
42:34
Speaker 1: on and so forth, that they would, you know, respond
42:36
Speaker 1: differently to this evidence and not say that it doesn't
42:40
Speaker 1: mean anything, because obviously I came to prison that did
42:44
Speaker 1: something with my life. I rehabilitated myself, and then that's
42:47
Speaker 1: what this looks about. Then I haven't I have done that.
42:50
Speaker 1: I'm a perfect nity for victims. We all have to
42:53
Speaker 1: give given a chance to learn from our mistakes and
42:57
Speaker 1: become a benefit to our communities. And what now I'm
43:00
Speaker 1: gonna do that if given the chance, if that's what
43:03
Speaker 1: we say, we truly are about that. Dedicated past two
43:06
Speaker 1: decades of my life mindering young people in the same
43:09
Speaker 1: situation I wasn't in when I was thirteen years old
43:11
Speaker 1: but now intent My bid hasn't got any sulphone because
43:15
Speaker 1: of these things I've been doing. I'm doing because it's
43:17
Speaker 1: in my heart to do that, because I had a
43:19
Speaker 1: recognition that this is what I'm supposed to be doing
43:21
Speaker 1: with my life in spite of the postshit that happened
43:24
Speaker 1: to me.
43:31
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction. You can
43:34
Speaker 2: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
43:36
Speaker 2: one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus
43:40
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team
43:43
Speaker 2: Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea, and Lyla Robinson, as well as
43:46
Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Awartis.
43:49
Speaker 4: And Jeff Cliburn.
43:50
Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time
43:52
Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us
43:56
Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and
43:59
Speaker 2: at Wrong Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram
44:02
Speaker 2: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of
44:05
Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number
44:09
Speaker 2: one