Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Evil Genius: Ted Bundy's decade of kidnapping, raping & killing across America

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Evil Genius: Ted Bundy's decade of kidnapping, raping & killing across America · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two.
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Speaker 1: One of the most feared serial killer known to American history,
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Speaker 1: whose name conjures up visions of terror, of kidnapping, of rape,
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Speaker 1: of murder, even necrophilia. He's called an evil genius. It's
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Speaker 1: hard to live in America unless you're living in a
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Speaker 1: cave or under a rock and not know the name
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. I Nancy Grays, this is Crime Stories. Thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. Evil genius? Is that how
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy should be described. Born Theodore Robert Cowell, the
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Speaker 1: American serial killer, kidnapper, burglar, rapist, necrophile who confessed to
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Speaker 1: thirty homicides in seven different states. A true count of
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Speaker 1: his victims is likely to be much greater. Joining me,
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Speaker 1: renowned serial killer historian, author of Sons of Caine, History
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Speaker 1: of serial killers from stone Age to present. Peter Vronsky.
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Speaker 1: Also with me Stephen Lampley, police veteran, former SVU detective
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Speaker 1: and author of Outside Your Door Stories and cases of
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Speaker 1: his police career, including the arrest of the Claimont killer.
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Speaker 1: With me, of course, Alan, the Duke Duke joining me
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Speaker 1: from La Alan. Let me tell you a story about
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, and I really cannot reveal my source. I
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Speaker 1: had a very dear friend who was a rookie cop
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Speaker 1: and Ted Bundy had to be transported. The rookie my
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Speaker 1: friend was with the veteran cop. The veteran cop was
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Speaker 1: driving the car. Now remember Ted Bundy had escaped the
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Speaker 1: courthouse before, I believe escaped to jail before by losing
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Speaker 1: so much way to crawl through a vent. Although I
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Speaker 1: may be confusing my serial killers, but they were transported
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Speaker 1: the very slippery Ted Bundy and Ted Bundy got to
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Speaker 1: complaining about I guess the air conditioner or the heat
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Speaker 1: or something in the car, and the veteran cop pull
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Speaker 1: holds the car over, opens the car door gets out,
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Speaker 1: opens Bundy's door and says get out. I want you
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Speaker 1: to run. Go ahead, try to escape. Bundy, of course,
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Speaker 1: did not get out of the car, and the veteran
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Speaker 1: cop came to us senses shortly thereafter, and he slammed
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Speaker 1: the door and got back in and continued transporting him
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Speaker 1: so he could live off the public dole for several
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Speaker 1: more years. Everybody, thank you for being with us. We're
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Speaker 1: talking about evil geniuses. First to Peter Vronsky, serial killer historian,
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Speaker 1: author of Sons of Kine, History of serial killer Stone
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Speaker 1: Age to present. It's on Amazon dot com. Peter Vronsky,
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Speaker 1: why do people insist on referring to Ted Bundy as
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Speaker 1: a genius? I mean, that's certainly putting perfume on the pig,
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Speaker 1: isn't it. Well, he certainly tested high on intelligence, you know,
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Speaker 1: i Q tests. He's a genius in that way, you know,
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Speaker 1: which makes it a that's a myth, that's real killers
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Speaker 1: are genius. But he certainly challenges the myth. He's admitted
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Speaker 1: into law school, although he doesn't do that well once
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Speaker 1: he gets into law school. But indeed he's university educated.
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Speaker 1: He's well spoken, genius. I don't know but certainly intelligent.
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Speaker 1: Well Stephen Lampley, police vet, author of Outside Your Door
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Speaker 1: on Amazon also Stephen Lampley, he managed to elude the
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Speaker 1: police for quite a long time. I mean he confessed
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Speaker 1: to thirty murders of young women. That's just what he's
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Speaker 1: confessed to. You have to understand, serial killers, for the
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Speaker 1: most part, are pretty devious. You know, it takes a
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Speaker 1: while for police officers to realize that, indeed that they
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Speaker 1: do have a serial killer. And Ted, by his own admission,
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Speaker 1: he was well versed in how police operate, well versed
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Speaker 1: in forensics, and that may be even more difficult for
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Speaker 1: or police. He round him up. And then on top
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Speaker 1: of that, he was able to be a chameleon of sorts.
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Speaker 1: He blended in. He could change his appearance pretty much
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Speaker 1: at will. And then they had different descriptions of his car,
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Speaker 1: something with ron and said it was tans. So he
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Speaker 1: had a lot of stuff in the black of a
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Speaker 1: better words going for him to allow him to keep
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Speaker 1: going on with this. Ted Bundy, the name alone strikes
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Speaker 1: fear in the hearts of so many listened to Rhonda's
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Speaker 1: stately a young college student who accepts a ride from
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Speaker 1: a handsome stranger, listen to what she tells. Doctor Phil
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Speaker 1: and Miss tan vul Dragon drove by very slowly. Q
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Speaker 1: driver kind of looked at music went passed, and then
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Speaker 1: he stopped and backed up and leaned over and rolled
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Speaker 1: down the passenger window and asked me where I was going.
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Speaker 1: I told him I was going up to the you
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Speaker 1: and he said me too, hop in. So I opened
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Speaker 1: the door and got in. The first thing that I
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Speaker 1: noticed was that inside passenger door handle was missing, and
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Speaker 1: he leaned over and pulled the door shut. But I
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Speaker 1: wasn't alarmed. I figured college kid, college car, things fall off.
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Speaker 1: He was dressed nice, had a green pull over sweater on,
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Speaker 1: nice slacks, lighthearted. We just had the normal conversation that
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Speaker 1: strangers would have. I told him my name's Rhonda and
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Speaker 1: I'm a pharmacy student. What are you studying? He told
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Speaker 1: me his name was Ted and he was a law student.
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Speaker 1: In just a couple of blocks he turned away. That
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Speaker 1: wasn't the normal route to the university, and I asked
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Speaker 1: him about that, and he was very polite and asked
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Speaker 1: my permission if it would be all right if he
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Speaker 1: took a little detour. He told me had to run
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Speaker 1: an errand up by the zoo, and I told him
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Speaker 1: that would be fine. I didn't care. I thought I
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Speaker 1: would still be home faster than if I had waited
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Speaker 1: for the bus. And then we went right on past
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Speaker 1: the zoo and I said, hey, I thought we were
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Speaker 1: taking me to the zoo, and he said no. I said,
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Speaker 1: near the zoo, that road goes over the hill and
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Speaker 1: drops down into Parley's Canyon, which is the main highway
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Speaker 1: back into the city. And the steady turned left and
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Speaker 1: started driving up another canyon. And as he's driving, he's
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Speaker 1: kind of looking at parking places and side roads. The
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Speaker 1: conversation started to go weird then, because he stopped talking
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Speaker 1: to me, and I'm still trying to make idle conversation,
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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking that he's probably looking for a place
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Speaker 1: to pull off in park and wants to make out.
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Speaker 1: And I don't know him, and I'm not really a
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Speaker 1: makeout person, but he's still cute law student and I
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Speaker 1: want to him, and I don't want to embarrass myself,
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Speaker 1: so I'm thinking of how do I get out of
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Speaker 1: this situation. And then he pulled into a parking place
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Speaker 1: and parked the car and turned it off, and then
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Speaker 1: he turned into the car seat, so he's kind of
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Speaker 1: facing me, and he leaned in really close. I thought
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Speaker 1: he was going to kiss me. Instead, he said, very quietly,
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Speaker 1: do you know what? I'm going to kill you? And
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Speaker 1: he put his hands on my throat and started squeezing.
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Speaker 1: My first thought was has to be some kind of
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Speaker 1: a joke. This guy's got the weirdest sense of humor.
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Speaker 1: But that was just maybe a fraction of a second
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Speaker 1: because I realized he was squeezing too tightly. He was
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Speaker 1: serious and I was in trouble, and there's no door handle.
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Speaker 1: What did you do? I had a little small battle
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Speaker 1: in the car, but I went unconscious. Did you put
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Speaker 1: up a fight? I did as much of the fight
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Speaker 1: as you can put up when you're running out of air.
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Speaker 1: Did you think at that point I'm gonna die? You
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Speaker 1: were hearing who was then a young college student, Rhonda Stapley,
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Speaker 1: describing her encounter with Ted Bundy. She lived to tell
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Speaker 1: the tale to Peter Vronsky, serial killer historian. There are
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Speaker 1: so many aspects of what she said. He uses his charm,
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Speaker 1: his affability to many people, good looks, his status as
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Speaker 1: a law student to impress a young girl. She believes.
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Speaker 1: It's almost as if her eyes in her mind are
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Speaker 1: tricking her to what's really happening. Peter, Well, you know
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Speaker 1: that's what makes Ted I'm such a unique serial killer.
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Speaker 1: We hadn't encountered one like that before. I mean, here was,
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Speaker 1: as you say, an affable, charming, intelligent, handsome young man.
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Speaker 1: It wasn't what we imagined. You know, even though we
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Speaker 1: didn't have the word serial killer itself, we knew that
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Speaker 1: there were multiple killers like that, but not the kind
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Speaker 1: of charmer that he was. Our usual concept of that
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Speaker 1: kind of killer was that they were kind of twitchy, reclusive,
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Speaker 1: repulsive loaners that would pounce on the victim. So Ted
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Speaker 1: Bundy redefined, I think, in our perception what serial killers,
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Speaker 1: the modern serial killer really is like or can be like.
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Speaker 1: He's right, Stephen Lampley, author of Outside Your Door Stephen
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Speaker 1: ted Bundy really changed the world's perspective of a serial killer.
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Speaker 1: Because now, although Ted Money is not remotely attractive to meum,
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Speaker 1: many people find him to be to have dark, good looks.
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Speaker 1: You know, he's God's thick head of wavy, dark brown hair,
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Speaker 1: soulful looking eyes, a good physique. He's clearly highly intelligent.
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Speaker 1: He could have done so much with his life. Instead
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Speaker 1: he became a notorious serial killer. How do you think
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Speaker 1: or do you agree Stephen that he changed the world's
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Speaker 1: perception of serial killers? I do, I do, uh, you know.
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Speaker 1: And I find even today that people will come up
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Speaker 1: to me and they want to know because I had
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Speaker 1: my interaction with the Claremont killer, and he himself was
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Speaker 1: for the brief time that I spoke with him, he
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Speaker 1: himself was a very charming individual. I was spoken and
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Speaker 1: they appeared to be a very person that could be
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Speaker 1: very well liked. And then did changed. It did change
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Speaker 1: to the perspective. And it's like Peter said, people to
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Speaker 1: expect serial killers to be for the most part, under
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Speaker 1: the bridge, knuckle dragging ogres, you know, with knives and
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Speaker 1: running around the neighborhood, and that's not the case. And
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Speaker 1: Ted been so much to change that perception. No one
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Speaker 1: really knows when or where Ted Bundy really began murdering women.
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Speaker 1: He's told so many different stories to so many different people,
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Speaker 1: and he has always refused to divulge exact facts of
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Speaker 1: his earliest murders. Now he coun confessed in detail to
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Speaker 1: many other murders but we don't know when he began murdering.
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Speaker 1: But we do know. On January fourth, one of his
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Speaker 1: murders goes down in the middle of the night. He
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Speaker 1: enters the basement apartment of a young girl, a teen girl,
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Speaker 1: Karen Sparks. She has been identified under different names in
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Speaker 1: different places. She's a student at UW and she's asleep.
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Speaker 1: He bludgeons her senseless with a metal rod that he
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Speaker 1: gets from her bed frame, and then sexually assaults her,
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Speaker 1: we believe, with the same rod, causing so many and
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Speaker 1: such extensive internal injuries from the sex assault. She remains
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Speaker 1: unconscious for ten days. She's in a coma. She's survived,
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Speaker 1: but with permanent disabilities now. Just a few days later,
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Speaker 1: he breaks into the basement of Linda and Healey, another
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Speaker 1: UW undergrad who broadcasts a morning radio weather report for skiers.
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Speaker 1: He beats her unconscious, dresses her in blue jeans and
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Speaker 1: white blouse and boots, and carries her away. Then female
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Speaker 1: college students begin to disappear about one a month around Olympia, Washington,
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Speaker 1: and nobody knows what is going on. Right there, Peter
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Speaker 1: Vronsky what happens next? He becomes very mobile as as
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Speaker 1: he's uh, you know, flunking out in some of his courses,
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Speaker 1: he switches universities. Um, he crosses state lines. So nobody
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Speaker 1: is connecting these murders that he's committing. And you know,
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Speaker 1: for Ted, it's not about the murder, it's about possessing
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Speaker 1: these these victims. He wants to disable the victim as
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Speaker 1: quickly as possible. And you know, as another killer serial
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Speaker 1: killer once said, um, it wasn't that I wanted to
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Speaker 1: kill them. I wanted to a victim from their bodies. Um.
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Speaker 1: So you know, he is a collector essentially. In fact,
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Speaker 1: he described his murders as possessing his victims, he said,
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Speaker 1: physically as one would possess a potted plant, a painting,
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Speaker 1: or a porsche, you know. So for him it was
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Speaker 1: control over a body. He is just obsessed with this collection.
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Speaker 1: And the problem, of course is he's a necrophile. So
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Speaker 1: there's an expiry date on the bodies, and after a
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Speaker 1: few days, as the body decomposes, he becomes repulsed by
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Speaker 1: it and he needs to move on, so find another body.
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Speaker 1: And that's kind of a spiral that he gets into.
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Speaker 1: How do we know, Peter Vronsky that Ted Bundy in
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Speaker 1: addition to being a burglar, rapist, and murderer. Why do
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Speaker 1: you say he was a necrophile? Well, because he himself
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Speaker 1: he confessed that he would return back to the grave
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Speaker 1: sites um sometimes after work, and that he would spend
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Speaker 1: the night with the courts, you know, until the course
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Speaker 1: became repulsive to as well, he brought the head's home
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Speaker 1: of some of his victims. At least half of his
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Speaker 1: victims were beheaded, you know. In one case, he brought
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Speaker 1: a head home to the apartment of his girlfriend when
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Speaker 1: she wasn't there, and after he was finished with the head,
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Speaker 1: he burned it in her fireplace. Ah. You may even
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Speaker 1: noticed a long pause because I thought I knew a
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Speaker 1: lot about Bundy, but I did not know that. I
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Speaker 1: did not know he severed the heads of victims, and
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Speaker 1: I did not know specifically that he brought one home
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Speaker 1: to his girlfriend's home and burned it in the fireplace.
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Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Kine, History of serial Killers,
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Speaker 1: Why what was his fascination with dead women's bodies? Well,
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Speaker 1: you know, for serial killers, they say that the primary
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Speaker 1: motive for a serial killer is control, control over the victim,
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Speaker 1: and so the ultimate control that one can have, of course,
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Speaker 1: is once you've killed the victim and you possess their
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Speaker 1: their their body. There's no greater control than that, short
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Speaker 1: of cannibalism and and and certainly that's another trait, although
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Speaker 1: I don't think Ted Bundy, um, you know, participated in cannibalism.
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Speaker 1: But that's another example of taking control over over the victim.
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Speaker 1: He not only brought the heads home, but he also
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Speaker 1: would apply makeup on some of the corpses, he would
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Speaker 1: wash their hair, he would model them essentially in the
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Speaker 1: way he wanted to. So it's it's all about the control.
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Speaker 1: enter your own name, get started. We're talking about one
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Speaker 1: of the most prolific serial killers ever known in American history.
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Speaker 1: It's Ted Bundy, who is synonymous with attractive, good looks,
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Speaker 1: charm and debonair anything. But it's the stark truth of
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. You're hearing stories, true stories from Peter Vronsky,
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Speaker 1: serial killer historian and author of Sons of Kane History
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Speaker 1: of serial Killers from Stone Age to Present, and Stephen Lampley,
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Speaker 1: highly regarded police veteran SVU detective author of Outside Your Door,
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Speaker 1: both of these books on Amazon dot com. Peter, you
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Speaker 1: were just describing how Ted Bundy would keep many of
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Speaker 1: the victims' bodies, bathe them, wash their hair, apply makeup
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Speaker 1: on them. True facts about Ted Bundy are horrific to me.
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Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley. I mean, you guys are saying, oh, I
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Speaker 1: don't know how genius he was. He managed to evade
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Speaker 1: the police for quite a long time. He had two
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Speaker 1: at least we know of two series our murders. The
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Speaker 1: last one I was talking about in the Pacific Northwest,
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Speaker 1: female college students disappearing at about one a month. Nobody
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Speaker 1: could figure it out. There was Donna Gail Manson, a
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Speaker 1: nineteen year old at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Susan
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Speaker 1: Elaine Rancourt. We talked about, I mean, it goes on
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Speaker 1: and on. Then facts began sifting through about a Volkswagen
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Speaker 1: Beetle at ten VW. Then Roberta Kathleen Parks left her
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Speaker 1: dorm at Oregon State University to have coffee with friends,
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Speaker 1: and she never arrived. Another girl goes missing. Apart from
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Speaker 1: being young and pretty, college students with long hair are
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Speaker 1: parted in the middle. No one could really get a
19:56
Speaker 1: better connection. So one woman recalled a man coming up
19:59
Speaker 1: to her asking her to help him carry a case
20:04
Speaker 1: to his car. A light brown VW that he was
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Speaker 1: struggling because he had his arm in a cast. Stephen Lampley,
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Speaker 1: he's clearly tricking all these women. He also tricked the police. True,
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Speaker 1: I mean that's what, that's what one of the dead
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Speaker 1: Dungdees traits. He did that very well. He's a very
20:22
Speaker 1: charming individual and he approached strangers. He didn't need intentionally
20:28
Speaker 1: avoiding people that he knew that he had probably met before.
20:32
Speaker 1: But he who was a very charming individual, and he
20:34
Speaker 1: used that guy with the fake army. At one point
20:37
Speaker 1: he even used crutches and a cast on his leg
20:41
Speaker 1: that he made from plaster of Paris in order to
20:43
Speaker 1: win the confidence of these women. Would you please help me?
20:46
Speaker 1: And of course he was a you know, a as
20:49
Speaker 1: most people would say, a good looking gentleman law students,
20:52
Speaker 1: and they were more than happy to advise, which made
20:54
Speaker 1: his ability to grab victims relatively easy. You know right now,
20:59
Speaker 1: I mean, there's such around warranted or not around Bundy.
21:04
Speaker 1: His Volkswagen Beetle, where he committed so many of his crimes,
21:08
Speaker 1: is currently on display at the National Museum of Crime
21:13
Speaker 1: and Punishment. Then we start seeing similarities between the victims,
21:18
Speaker 1: the disappearances take place at night. Within a week of exams.
21:23
Speaker 1: The victims are always wearing slacks or blue jeans. There
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Speaker 1: were sightings in the area where people would go missing
21:31
Speaker 1: of a man wearing a cast or sling driving a
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Speaker 1: brown or ten VW a beatle. Then came the broad
21:40
Speaker 1: daylight abductions east of Seattle. Witnesses describe an attractive young
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Speaker 1: man in a white tennis outfit with a left arm
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Speaker 1: in a sling, speaking with perhaps a British or Canadian accent,
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Speaker 1: introducing himself as Ted and asking for help and loading
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Speaker 1: a sailboat from his VW four refused one one as
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Speaker 1: far as his car saw there was no sailboat, and ran.
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Speaker 1: Four hours later. Denise Marie Naslin, just nineteen years old,
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Speaker 1: left a picnic to go to the bathroom and never
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Speaker 1: comes back. What finally made Ted Bundy stop and that
22:27
Speaker 1: series of brutal murders, Peter Vronsky, Well, you know what
22:32
Speaker 1: made was he never stopped though you know he that
22:37
Speaker 1: day at the beach, he actually had kidnapped two women.
22:41
Speaker 1: And in fact, that was the first time that authorities
22:44
Speaker 1: clued in that you know, there was somebody called Ted
22:50
Speaker 1: out there because he had approached several women he left
22:53
Speaker 1: behind witnesses. In this case he kidnapped. One woman was
23:00
Speaker 1: actually a probation officer, and you know, he appeared so vulnerable,
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Speaker 1: so helpless, that these women just felt so sorry for
23:12
Speaker 1: him that they you know, helped them. One actually later said,
23:17
Speaker 1: you know, before she kind of didn't have the time
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Speaker 1: to help him, that she had hoped that maybe he
23:22
Speaker 1: would take her out on that sale boat one you know,
23:26
Speaker 1: later in the day. So that's the first break authorities get.
23:31
Speaker 1: You know, you have to remember that the nineteen seventies,
23:35
Speaker 1: people were not really as aware of serial killers as
23:39
Speaker 1: we are today. The FBI is only you know, the
23:43
Speaker 1: so called mine hunters have only started interviewing serial killers
23:48
Speaker 1: inside of prisons to ask them what they're doing. So
23:52
Speaker 1: jurisdictions didn't really have even the kind of communication nets
23:56
Speaker 1: that they have today. You know, most departments didn't use
24:02
Speaker 1: computers the way we do today. They were very expensive,
24:05
Speaker 1: so information didn't cross. Was called linkage blindness. So you know,
24:12
Speaker 1: it wasn't really that long that he went under I'm
24:15
Speaker 1: apprehended was about eighteen months, which today would you know,
24:22
Speaker 1: not a long time really, So it was those kidnappings
24:26
Speaker 1: at the Park that really alerted authorities to his method,
24:30
Speaker 1: to the possibility of an individual by the name of
24:33
Speaker 1: Ted in that colored folkswagon, and very slowly various jurisdictions
24:40
Speaker 1: began sharing information with each other. This is the irony
24:44
Speaker 1: Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Cain, Because the Kings
24:48
Speaker 1: County police got a detailed description of a suspect in
24:52
Speaker 1: his car, and they posted flyers all around Seattle, including
24:58
Speaker 1: a composite sketch. It was an the newspapers, on TV
25:02
Speaker 1: stations and all right, then Elizabeth Kletford and Rule, who
25:09
Speaker 1: we were discussing earlier, a des employee, She actually was
25:12
Speaker 1: on a man to suicide hotline with Ted Bundy and Rule,
25:17
Speaker 1: who became the great prolific criminal true crime writer and
25:22
Speaker 1: a UW psychology professor all recognized the profile, the sketch,
25:28
Speaker 1: the car and reported Bundy as a suspect. And guess
25:32
Speaker 1: what happened. Detectives were getting about two hundred tips a day,
25:36
Speaker 1: and they just couldn't take in that a clean cut
25:38
Speaker 1: laws unit with no criminal history at all could be
25:42
Speaker 1: the perpetrator, and he continued killing. That happened, Peter, you know,
25:49
Speaker 1: and Rule at first actually couldn't believe that Ted Bundy
25:54
Speaker 1: was guilty, and a lot of people who worked with
25:59
Speaker 1: Ted would joke when they saw the composite and laugh,
26:04
Speaker 1: you know, well, isn't your name Ted? You look like
26:08
Speaker 1: the guy in the composite photo, and don't you drive
26:11
Speaker 1: a folkswagon? But Ted's personality was he had such a
26:17
Speaker 1: mask of sanity that nobody could actually believe despite all
26:23
Speaker 1: this evidence linking him to you know, that suspect, nobody
26:28
Speaker 1: could imagine Ted being a murderer. He was just too
26:33
Speaker 1: much like us. I think that's why people are so
26:38
Speaker 1: interested in Ted Bundy, because, unlike many other serial killers,
26:42
Speaker 1: he had the same kind of ambitions that we did.
26:47
Speaker 1: You know, he was a middle class, ambitious, intelligence, studious
26:53
Speaker 1: member of society. He was among us. He was on
26:57
Speaker 1: the inside, to the point that even when police began
27:01
Speaker 1: to get a very good composite of who this suspect
27:04
Speaker 1: was and people were recognizing him, they still could not
27:09
Speaker 1: see through his personality to the real truth, to the
27:13
Speaker 1: monster that lay beneath that facade that he had put up. Well,
27:18
Speaker 1: then he moves on. He gets a second acceptance from
27:22
Speaker 1: University of Utah Law School. He moves to Salt Lake City,
27:26
Speaker 1: and he leaves Seattle and all of his murder victims behind.
27:30
Speaker 1: He was dating at least a dozen women at a time,
27:34
Speaker 1: according to what we've learned in law school the first year.
27:38
Speaker 1: This is his second time around first year law school.
27:42
Speaker 1: It hit him. Now. People believe that Bundy was brilliant,
27:46
Speaker 1: but he was personally devastated when he could not keep
27:50
Speaker 1: up with the one L curriculum. And I've got to
27:53
Speaker 1: tell you, having been there, Stephen Lampley, I studied so much.
27:58
Speaker 1: I would even study when I was taking a bath.
28:01
Speaker 1: If you look at my criminal law book from first year,
28:03
Speaker 1: there's watermarks all along the side pages where I would
28:08
Speaker 1: turn the pages. Sometimes I would have to read one sentence.
28:13
Speaker 1: Of course, the sentence could be a whole paragraph, but
28:15
Speaker 1: over and over so I would could make sure I
28:19
Speaker 1: understood it. Then I quickly got to the point where
28:22
Speaker 1: after reading one paragraph, I'd have to write a note
28:26
Speaker 1: and the column of the page on the side explaining
28:31
Speaker 1: to me in my words, what that paragraph just said.
28:34
Speaker 1: And then I go through the whole Supreme Court opinion
28:36
Speaker 1: that way, and then go back through and read my
28:38
Speaker 1: own notes so I could understand fully what I had
28:42
Speaker 1: just read, so it's overwhelming. A lot of the legal
28:46
Speaker 1: terms are in Latin. So Bundy basically nutted up because
28:51
Speaker 1: he could not keep up with the first year of
28:54
Speaker 1: law school. Stephen, Yeah, I mean he suf admitted that
28:58
Speaker 1: he had trouble keeping up with the other students and
29:01
Speaker 1: that he himself had had a relatively low self esteem
29:05
Speaker 1: and not a good outlook on himself anyway. So the
29:09
Speaker 1: fact that he was not able to keep up by
29:12
Speaker 1: his own self admission, like I said, it made it
29:14
Speaker 1: hard on him and that could possibly have been one
29:17
Speaker 1: of the triggers that they didn't starting to be kept
29:20
Speaker 1: him going in this carnage well, and also that frustration.
29:25
Speaker 1: I mean, how canny kid up when he's committing murders
29:28
Speaker 1: and hiding the evidence. I mean he then killed an
29:30
Speaker 1: unnamed hitchhiker, then got rid of the body or went
29:34
Speaker 1: back the next day to photograph and dismember the body.
29:38
Speaker 1: Then there is a change. He kidnaps a sixteen year
29:41
Speaker 1: old girl, Nancy Wilcox, near Salt Lake City, drags her
29:45
Speaker 1: off into the woods, and he tries to change his
29:48
Speaker 1: m O. He wants to just rape her and then
29:51
Speaker 1: release her. He says he accidentally strangled her dead trying
29:56
Speaker 1: to make her stop screaming. Her remains, to my understanding,
30:03
Speaker 1: were never found. If he's to be believed, her remainder
30:08
Speaker 1: somewhere near the Capitol Reef National Park. Then it goes on.
30:12
Speaker 1: Then there's a seventeen year old daughter of a police
30:15
Speaker 1: chief in Midvale, Melissa and Smith, just turn seventeen, disappears
30:22
Speaker 1: leaving a pizza parlor. She's found naked and dead in
30:26
Speaker 1: a mountainous area nine days later, and the post mortem
30:32
Speaker 1: reveals she remained alive up to seven days after she disappears.
30:38
Speaker 1: What does that mean to Peter Vronsky, author of Sons
30:41
Speaker 1: of King He kept her alive for seven days after
30:44
Speaker 1: he kidnapped her. Well, you know, serial killers, for many
30:48
Speaker 1: of them, it's kind of a learning process. So he's
30:51
Speaker 1: probably testing out his various fantasies, you know what. You know,
30:57
Speaker 1: the method kind of changes, but the signal, sure, the
31:02
Speaker 1: inner psychological motive that's driving the crime always stays the
31:07
Speaker 1: same um And in this case it's it's still control
31:11
Speaker 1: over the victim UM. So Ted might be experimenting at
31:15
Speaker 1: this point to seeing whether he can perhaps keep a
31:19
Speaker 1: victim alive rather than necessarily enjoying them when they're dead. Um.
31:24
Speaker 1: So serial killers will shift and change in how they
31:31
Speaker 1: commit the crime, but the reasons will always be the same. UM.
31:34
Speaker 1: And again it's it's control over the victim. UM. So
31:40
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's essentially you know, he's he's like
31:44
Speaker 1: his fantasy of being a lawyer, or like his fantasy
31:48
Speaker 1: of having the perfect girlfriend. Um. You know, we often
31:52
Speaker 1: see that the beginning of his killings when he starts
31:56
Speaker 1: occur shortly after he wins back his law love. This
32:01
Speaker 1: girl he was dating who broke up with him, and
32:05
Speaker 1: then he reconquered her, and once she kind of reconquered
32:10
Speaker 1: her to return to him, he then drops her because
32:13
Speaker 1: the fantasy is much better than the reality. So that's
32:19
Speaker 1: often how they get into that cereal pattern. So he's
32:21
Speaker 1: testing all these different things, but at the bottom of
32:25
Speaker 1: all everything is always his need to control the victim
32:29
Speaker 1: and possess It's all about possession and control. We're talking
32:33
Speaker 1: a lot about the so called genius of cereal killer
32:36
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. He was really nothing more than a killer
32:40
Speaker 1: and a necrophile, obsessed with his victim's dead bodies. But
32:44
Speaker 1: what about the victims of Ted Bundy listen to the
32:50
Speaker 1: family of Susan Rancourt. So her roommates right where something
32:55
Speaker 1: was right, said well where did she go last night?
32:58
Speaker 1: And said while she went to a dorm leaders eating
33:01
Speaker 1: and was on our way back to this dorm room
33:03
Speaker 1: and never came back. This is where we where. He
33:10
Speaker 1: objected her she had to walk through this to get
33:12
Speaker 1: to her dorm. I would be obsessed with searching for her.
33:17
Speaker 1: She had bright yellow ski coat. I would just look
33:20
Speaker 1: for that, and everywhere we went, I found myself looking
33:23
Speaker 1: in fields and ditches for this yellow ski jacket to
33:27
Speaker 1: stick out like a sore thumb, and I'd be able
33:29
Speaker 1: to say a founder, And we lived for a long time.
33:33
Speaker 1: We are talking about the so called evil genius, a
33:36
Speaker 1: prolific serial killer Ted Bundy, his killing spree across the country. Continued.
33:44
Speaker 1: How Peter Vronsky, author of Sons of Cain, was he
33:48
Speaker 1: ultimately captured. Well, you know that's the amazing part of
33:53
Speaker 1: it that sometimes it's a random alert police officer breaks
34:00
Speaker 1: the case, not realizing you know who he has under arrest.
34:06
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy attracts the attention of an officer who sees
34:13
Speaker 1: his vehicle. He doesn't appear to belong there. He pulls
34:19
Speaker 1: him over, you know. He In fact, I think, if
34:23
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, that the police officers suspected that he
34:27
Speaker 1: might have a DUI case. Yeah. I was a Utah
34:31
Speaker 1: Highway patrol officer in Granger, which is near Salt Lake City,
34:35
Speaker 1: and he saw a Bundy cruising a residential area in
34:38
Speaker 1: the early early morning hours, got suspicious, and when he
34:42
Speaker 1: pulled up behind him, Bundy took off. Yeah, he didn't
34:44
Speaker 1: even know Bundy was doing anything wrong. And then when
34:48
Speaker 1: Bundy took off a speeding when he saw the patrol car,
34:53
Speaker 1: there's nothing that gets under cop skin. Then you take
34:55
Speaker 1: off at ninety mph when all they do is just
34:58
Speaker 1: pull up behind you, you know. So of course they
35:01
Speaker 1: chased him. And then when they get him, he sees
35:04
Speaker 1: the cop sees the VWAT front passenger seat was removed
35:09
Speaker 1: and put on the back seats. There was a ski mask,
35:12
Speaker 1: a second mask fashioned from pantyhose. I mean, come on,
35:16
Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, a guy's carrying around a pantyhose mask and
35:21
Speaker 1: that doesn't get you. And the pair of handcuffs in
35:23
Speaker 1: an ice pick, I think as well, and rout yeah,
35:27
Speaker 1: and burglary tools. I mean, and it's supported about the handcuffs.
35:30
Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Because
35:35
Speaker 1: Steve he had changes mo he had lost the fake
35:39
Speaker 1: cast and the crutches we were talking about. Then he
35:42
Speaker 1: began impersonating a police officer and with handcuff the vict
35:46
Speaker 1: In fact, the first time that we know of, the
35:48
Speaker 1: first time he tried it, he accidentally put the cuffs
35:51
Speaker 1: on one victims, both of them on one wrist, and
35:54
Speaker 1: she got away and in the parking lot they found
35:56
Speaker 1: the key to the cuffs. All right, remember that after
35:59
Speaker 1: a drama practice or something one evening, a teen girl.
36:03
Speaker 1: So now these handcuffs are taking on a whole new
36:06
Speaker 1: meaning and significance. So what about this? What about it?
36:11
Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley? You know, it reminds me so much of
36:14
Speaker 1: Timothy McVeigh. You know, the Okay City bomber. He was
36:18
Speaker 1: pulled over some traffic issue. Same thing here. What about it, Steve, Well,
36:23
Speaker 1: it happens, you know, the sort of related. Of course,
36:27
Speaker 1: they didn't arrest Jeffrey who Jeffrey Dahmer had committed his
36:30
Speaker 1: first homicide of Stephen Hicks and had was going to
36:35
Speaker 1: take him to the dump and had him in the
36:37
Speaker 1: back seat of his trying trash bags when the police
36:40
Speaker 1: stopped him. Of course, now in that case, unfortunately they
36:43
Speaker 1: did not take it to the next step and then actually,
36:46
Speaker 1: you know, look into trash bags and why would they
36:48
Speaker 1: you know, it was trash. But it happens a lot
36:51
Speaker 1: of times these criminals. In the twenty one years I
36:54
Speaker 1: was I was a police officer, we would see people
36:58
Speaker 1: that would have felony warrants and we wanted for some
37:01
Speaker 1: preheenous stuff driving around with expired tags and one headlight,
37:05
Speaker 1: so you really never know expired tag and missing headlight. Well,
37:11
Speaker 1: Bundy manages to explain some of this away when he's
37:15
Speaker 1: caught cruising that residential area. He explains a ski mask
37:19
Speaker 1: was for skiing, he had found the handcuffs in a dumpster,
37:23
Speaker 1: and the rest were just household items. Now, the detective,
37:27
Speaker 1: it was Jerry Thompson, remembered a similar suspect and car
37:31
Speaker 1: description from the Daaunch kidnapping and he became suspicious. He
37:37
Speaker 1: searched Bundy's apartment. He found a guy to Colorado Ski
37:41
Speaker 1: Resorts with a check mark by the wild Wood in
37:45
Speaker 1: and a brochure about a Vermont High School play where
37:50
Speaker 1: Deborah Kent had gone missing. But still that wasn't enough
37:55
Speaker 1: to arrest him. They let him go r R released
37:59
Speaker 1: on own recognin. We later find out the searchers missed
38:04
Speaker 1: a whole stack of polaroid photographs of his victims. As
38:10
Speaker 1: soon as he released was released r O R. He
38:13
Speaker 1: destroyed them, got rid of them. So what happens next?
38:19
Speaker 1: They put Bundy on twenty four hour surveillance and Thompson
38:24
Speaker 1: detective Jerry Thompson flies to Seattle with detectives to interview people,
38:28
Speaker 1: and they find out so much. They find out that
38:32
Speaker 1: in the year before he moved away, discovered in his
38:36
Speaker 1: home his apartment he rented from someone were crutches, a
38:42
Speaker 1: bag of plaster of Paris and a meat cleaver that
38:46
Speaker 1: he never used for cooking, surgical gloves, an oriental knife,
38:52
Speaker 1: and a sackful of women's clothing. What about that, Peter Vronsky,
38:59
Speaker 1: I mean just screams out evidence. Well, you know, certainly
39:04
Speaker 1: the plaster of Paris, of course, would connect him to
39:09
Speaker 1: the use of a fake cast that he wore in
39:12
Speaker 1: luring women into his vehicle. He would also use it
39:18
Speaker 1: as a way to knock them unconscious once they turned
39:22
Speaker 1: their back on him. So very slowly police start making
39:27
Speaker 1: these connections to various cases that we're unsolved in their jurisdictions.
39:35
Speaker 1: On top of that, you have to remember that Ted
39:37
Speaker 1: Bundy's girlfriend, even though she continued to have a relationship
39:41
Speaker 1: with him, she was sending this information to the police already.
39:47
Speaker 1: And and so now police start backtracking and looking in
39:53
Speaker 1: much closer detail now that they had targeted, you know,
39:56
Speaker 1: who the individual was at, the kind of reports there were,
40:00
Speaker 1: and so they were able to time, of course much better.
40:03
Speaker 1: When Ted possessed this this plaster of of of you know,
40:08
Speaker 1: this this medical plaster um which he was stealing. He
40:12
Speaker 1: was working as at one point uh in a medical
40:15
Speaker 1: distribution company. In fact, some of the tools that he
40:20
Speaker 1: used on his victims were medical tools that he stole
40:24
Speaker 1: from the delivery company that he worked for. So very
40:28
Speaker 1: slowly they began to assemble all this evidence that began
40:32
Speaker 1: to look in the perspective of what they now knew
40:36
Speaker 1: in the you know, they gave them a fresh approach
40:39
Speaker 1: to it. And and um, you know, the first charges
40:42
Speaker 1: I think that were preferred against Um Bundy was that
40:46
Speaker 1: of kidnapping in the Darran case. Uh, that's where it
40:50
Speaker 1: kind of begins. Yeah, because that you're exactly correct, big mistake.
40:55
Speaker 1: Bundy sells as VWU to attain in Midvale, Utah. Police
40:59
Speaker 1: aren't suspicious of him, get the car, and the FBI
41:03
Speaker 1: breaks it apart. They find hair matching samples from Karen
41:07
Speaker 1: Campbell's body. They also I D hairstrands. It seemed to
41:11
Speaker 1: be those of Carol Drank and Melissa Smith. Then they
41:17
Speaker 1: put him in a lineup and Drank immediately identifies him
41:21
Speaker 1: as quote Officer Roseland now Stephen lamplay Peter Vronsky, and
41:28
Speaker 1: why don't you tell me why the victim who lived
41:31
Speaker 1: to you know, live through an attimpt to kidnapping ideed
41:34
Speaker 1: him as Officer Roseland well, here's some insight for us
41:39
Speaker 1: into just you know, he's not a genius, but he's
41:43
Speaker 1: very cunning. He has an animal like cunning. And so
41:48
Speaker 1: what Bundy had done in the Duran cases, he had
41:52
Speaker 1: stalked her into the parking lot of a shopping mall.
41:56
Speaker 1: He knew what kind of car she was driving, and
42:00
Speaker 1: then he followed her into the mall and approached her
42:03
Speaker 1: posing as a police officer, telling her that there appeared
42:08
Speaker 1: to be a break in in her car. He flashed
42:12
Speaker 1: a tiny fake badge when she asked him to see
42:15
Speaker 1: his identification. UM. Again, he looked clean cut, there was
42:20
Speaker 1: nothing odd about him, and so she followed him out
42:23
Speaker 1: into the parking lot. UM. He then lured her away
42:29
Speaker 1: from her car, telling her that he would like her
42:32
Speaker 1: to fill out a report that they had actually arrested
42:36
Speaker 1: the person who had attempted to break into her car.
42:39
Speaker 1: And and so she ended up following him into his
42:42
Speaker 1: own vehicle. UM. And and that's when he tried to
42:48
Speaker 1: snap these handcuffs on her, and of course ended up
42:51
Speaker 1: putting both cuffs on her wrist, and she managed to flee,
42:56
Speaker 1: flee the vehicle. But you know, very slowly. That's how
43:01
Speaker 1: he would work. He would lure his victims in in
43:05
Speaker 1: in that way. And here you had one that survived.
43:08
Speaker 1: And so we got, you know, some insight into actually
43:11
Speaker 1: how he worked, how he would gradually find a victim.
43:17
Speaker 1: He probably approached many women in that mall, some refused
43:21
Speaker 1: perhaps to go with him. Here was one who followed,
43:25
Speaker 1: you know, a law buying citizen. You know, when someone
43:28
Speaker 1: comes to you and says, especially in the seventies, they're
43:31
Speaker 1: a police officer, they look like they could be one
43:36
Speaker 1: immediately kind of with a respect for authority, you know
43:40
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City. Uh, you know in that region, people
43:46
Speaker 1: are more conservative, more respect over authorities. So he used
43:51
Speaker 1: that to lure his victims in that case. Stephen Lampley
43:55
Speaker 1: please vet author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Stephen.
44:01
Speaker 1: How did Bundy manage to escape more than once? Well,
44:08
Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with the second escape. I do know
44:10
Speaker 1: he did escape twice. One of the times was when
44:13
Speaker 1: he wanted to act as his own attorney, and of
44:16
Speaker 1: course the judge allowed that, and one of the conditions
44:19
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know that Ted made the
44:21
Speaker 1: condition or the judge just you know, said take the
44:24
Speaker 1: cuffs off, take the leg shackles off, because he is
44:27
Speaker 1: now quote unquote an attorney. So Ted then wanted to
44:32
Speaker 1: research some information on his case and ask permission to
44:36
Speaker 1: use the law library or the library at the courthouse,
44:39
Speaker 1: which they granted. Well, he went behind a bookshelf that
44:43
Speaker 1: was obscured from view, lifted up the second floor window
44:46
Speaker 1: of the courthouse, and jumped and escape that way. He
44:49
Speaker 1: was very cunning, very very as Peter said, a very
44:52
Speaker 1: cunning individual, very well organized and very thought amazing amazing. Yeah. Well,
44:58
Speaker 1: he then ends up in Florida and the infamous FSU
45:04
Speaker 1: kay Omega sorority house murders, you know, to Peter Vronsky,
45:10
Speaker 1: he graduates from getting a single victim to actually going
45:16
Speaker 1: in a sorority house and just going berserk. What happened
45:21
Speaker 1: at FSU, Peter, Well, Ted Bundy is by now disintegrating.
45:28
Speaker 1: He is no longer acting in that kind of organized way.
45:31
Speaker 1: He's just looking for victims at random. And so he
45:35
Speaker 1: comes onto this house on new a campus or on campus,
45:42
Speaker 1: and he goes room to room, assaulting victims in those rooms,
45:48
Speaker 1: battering them on the head with a club that he
45:52
Speaker 1: had found, um, you know, at random upon entering the building.
45:59
Speaker 1: So he's no longer the kind of organized, prepared serial killer.
46:04
Speaker 1: He's in the disintegrating stage. It's almost, you know, the
46:08
Speaker 1: way he kind of achieved his fantasy of getting into
46:10
Speaker 1: law school and then disintegrated. Here he achieved his fantasy
46:15
Speaker 1: of possessing victims, um, you know, becoming kind of a
46:19
Speaker 1: serial killer. But the fantasy now was was no longer
46:25
Speaker 1: you know, the reality wasn't as satisfying as the fantasy.
46:29
Speaker 1: So he batters all these victims in that room. He
46:33
Speaker 1: kills too, he uh seriously critically injures another I think
46:39
Speaker 1: three other victims in that place. It's it's a mass attack. Um.
46:45
Speaker 1: And it's it's completely at random, completely unplanned. Um. He
46:51
Speaker 1: leaves behind you know a lot of evidence. Now, um,
46:55
Speaker 1: and he'll kill one more time again. He'll he'll now
47:00
Speaker 1: snatch a young schoolgirl. Um. There's a lot of witnesses
47:04
Speaker 1: because he's hanging around, um, you know, the school he had.
47:09
Speaker 1: He attempts to kidnap abduct another young woman, but her
47:16
Speaker 1: brother intervenes. So he's getting sloppy. He is disintegrating, which
47:22
Speaker 1: happens often with serial killers who are reaching that burnout
47:25
Speaker 1: stage when you know, when they realize that, you know,
47:30
Speaker 1: their fantasies were much more satisfying than the reality and
47:35
Speaker 1: now what. Some may retire and you know, not commit
47:39
Speaker 1: a crime until you know DNA evidence catches up to them,
47:43
Speaker 1: like the Green River killing or you know, the Golden
47:46
Speaker 1: State killer. Bundy is the other kind. He's the disintegrating kind.
47:51
Speaker 1: It's not that he wants to get caught. You know
47:54
Speaker 1: a lot of people think, wow, you know, serial killers
47:57
Speaker 1: really want to get caught. It's not about that. It's
48:00
Speaker 1: a complete disintegration all his relationship between his fantasies and
48:05
Speaker 1: the reality, and Bundy is disintegrating in Florida now. The
48:10
Speaker 1: interview that Ted Bundy gives very very revealing. Bundy himself
48:19
Speaker 1: speaks too, in exclusively to the focus on family. President
48:25
Speaker 1: James Dobson, Listen, are you thinking about all those victims
48:31
Speaker 1: out there and their families well, who are so wounded?
48:35
Speaker 1: You know, years later, their lives have not returned to normal,
48:38
Speaker 1: They will never have returned to normal. About are you
48:41
Speaker 1: carrying that load? That way? Is the remorse they again,
48:50
Speaker 1: I know that people will accuse me being self serving,
48:52
Speaker 1: but we're beyond that now. I mean, I'm just telling
48:54
Speaker 1: you how I feel. But through God's help, I've been
49:00
Speaker 1: able to come to the point where I've much too late,
49:05
Speaker 1: but better late than never. Feel it hurt and the
49:08
Speaker 1: pain that I am responsible for. Yes. Absolutely. In the
49:12
Speaker 1: past few days, myself and a number of investigators have
49:15
Speaker 1: been talking about unsolved cases murders that I was involved in,
49:22
Speaker 1: and it's hard. It's hard to talk about all these
49:25
Speaker 1: years later because it revives in me all those terrible
49:28
Speaker 1: feelings and those thoughts that I have steadfastly and diligently
49:38
Speaker 1: dealt with and I think successfully with the love of God.
49:43
Speaker 1: And yet it's reopened that and I felt the pain,
49:45
Speaker 1: and I've felt the horror again of all that. And
49:48
Speaker 1: I can only hope that those who I've harmed, those
49:55
Speaker 1: who I've caused so much grief, even if they don't
50:00
Speaker 1: believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, we'll believe what
50:10
Speaker 1: I'm saying now that there is loose in their towns,
50:15
Speaker 1: in their communities, people like me today, whose dangerous impulses
50:25
Speaker 1: are being fueled day in and day out by violence
50:30
Speaker 1: in the media in its various forms, particularly sexualized violence.
50:35
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy died in the Rafit electric chair seven sixteen
50:40
Speaker 1: am EST on January twenty fourth. Morning. Outside death Row,
50:49
Speaker 1: people were selling T shirts, drinking beer, basically having a
50:55
Speaker 1: big party. I never felt the urged party at the
51:00
Speaker 1: time of Bundy's death, but I can say this, Ted
51:03
Speaker 1: Bundy wrought in help Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off,
51:11
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