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Why Preaching Still Matters with Michael Cooper · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church in
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Paxinos,
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Pennsylvania.
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And I am just thrilled to have on this particular episode of
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the show,
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Michael Cooper.
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SPEAKER_00: He's a pastor.
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SPEAKER_00: He's also an author.
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SPEAKER_00: He has a new book that released fairly recently,
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SPEAKER_00: which is The Word of the Salvation in the Mouths of Christ Ministers,
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which is actually a phrase that hails from the theology and
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homiletics of Benjamin
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SPEAKER_00: Keech,
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SPEAKER_00: which Benjamin Keech was a post-Reformation sort of Baptist preacher.
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who serves sort of as the subject and the muse of Michael
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Cooper's book and his PhD thesis.
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SPEAKER_00: And it was a delight to talk to Michael,
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SPEAKER_00: not only about Benjamin Keech,
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SPEAKER_00: but the necessity of preaching,
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SPEAKER_00: especially from a Baptist perspective.
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What are some ways in which Baptist preachers and proclaimers
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of the gospel,
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perhaps how do they need to reassess the ways in which they're
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approaching the
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SPEAKER_00: preaching event?
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: I think Michael Cooper's book,
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SPEAKER_00: as he surveys post-Reformation Baptist context,
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SPEAKER_00: as he gets into what makes Benjamin Keech's preaching theology so robust,
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SPEAKER_00: even for us today in 2026—
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SPEAKER_00: This book serves as a great vehicle,
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a great window in which preachers and church leaders can
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perhaps step back and be
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able to reevaluate what actually is the message that needs to
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be proclaimed Sunday.
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SPEAKER_00: after Sunday.
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SPEAKER_00: And sort of as the title suggests, it is the word of the salvation.
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SPEAKER_00: That's the word that ought to be in the mouths of Christ's ministers.
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SPEAKER_00: It was a delight to talk to Michael.
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We talk about Benjamin Keech and preaching and the necessity of
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it and in sort of
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SPEAKER_00: the context,
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even the modern context of preaching now and how Benjamin
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Keech's homiletical
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SPEAKER_00: theology can inform all that.
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So if you are a church member,
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if you're a church leader,
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if you're a pastor,
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if you're a
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SPEAKER_00: I know you're going to be blessed by this episode.
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So sit back,
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enjoy,
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as Michael and I talk about preaching in a whole host of other
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topics.
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SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
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SPEAKER_00: Michael Cooper, so glad to have you on the show.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that we can make this happen.
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SPEAKER_00: We've been kind of interacting in these online spaces for a while,
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but now we finally get to kind of sit down and have a
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conversation and get to enjoy
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SPEAKER_00: getting to know each other,
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SPEAKER_00: especially because as we've come to find out,
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SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of overlap in interest,
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SPEAKER_00: but also I would say theological hobbies,
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SPEAKER_00: especially revolving around preaching,
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SPEAKER_00: especially from a Baptist perspective.
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SPEAKER_00: So anyways, Michael, it's good to have you on the show.
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SPEAKER_00: How are you?
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SPEAKER_01: Brad, doing good, man.
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SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the opportunity to jump on, have this conversation.
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And anytime I get to talk about preaching and theology in
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church,
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I'm always interested.
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SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
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SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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I've been reading your book,
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which we're going to get into,
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which is all about Benjamin Keech.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm really excited about that.
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SPEAKER_00: And as I've been reading,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm just like,
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SPEAKER_00: man,
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I really need to talk to this guy more because I love how he's
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approaching
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SPEAKER_00: preaching and how he's doing historical retrieval of theology.
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SPEAKER_00: I just love all that kind of stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: You're kind of speaking my language.
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SPEAKER_00: So anyways, just...
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SPEAKER_00: for people who don't know who you are,
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SPEAKER_00: kind of introduce yourself,
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SPEAKER_00: your family,
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SPEAKER_00: your background,
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SPEAKER_00: your ministry,
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SPEAKER_00: all that kind of stuff so we can get to know you a little better.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I was saved when I was 17 years old.
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SPEAKER_01: And roughly a few months after that, I just sensed a call to ministry.
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SPEAKER_01: So during that time, I was actually, I always wanted to teach.
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SPEAKER_01: I wanted to be a teacher.
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SPEAKER_01: I thought it was going to be music.
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SPEAKER_01: I thought I was going to teach percussion.
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SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
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SPEAKER_01: what I was aiming towards, drum corps, all those different things.
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SPEAKER_01: But the Lord had different plans,
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SPEAKER_01: saved me,
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SPEAKER_01: 17,
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SPEAKER_01: called me to preach,
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SPEAKER_01: preached my first sermon right after I turned 18.
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SPEAKER_01: And from that point, I've been preaching and teaching ever since.
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SPEAKER_01: My early stuff, man, just...
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SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what was going on.
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SPEAKER_01: I kind of have a better idea of what's going on now.
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SPEAKER_01: But early on, it was like, what in the world is happening?
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SPEAKER_01: But so the Lord called me into ministry,
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SPEAKER_01: started preaching,
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SPEAKER_01: went to an international missions organization,
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SPEAKER_01: did an internship there for a year,
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SPEAKER_01: was able to travel,
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SPEAKER_01: see the world as an 18-year-old.
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SPEAKER_01: I came back to the States and enrolled into Criswell College in Dallas.
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I got my undergrad there in biblical studies,
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got my master's MA in theological studies.
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SPEAKER_01: And around that time,
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SPEAKER_01: a church in the town that I was currently living in,
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SPEAKER_01: in Maybank,
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SPEAKER_01: Texas,
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SPEAKER_01: which is 45 minutes southeast of Dallas,
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a church opened up and I had already beginning or I already had
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in my mind kind of
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SPEAKER_01: a general sense of,
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SPEAKER_01: man,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: I think the Lord's leading me to pastor.
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My dad was a pastor and he said,
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you know,
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if you could do anything,
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do that.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, don't just jump into pastoring just because you want to.
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SPEAKER_01: It's truly a calling.
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And 2013,
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some of my my resume church called me and I've been at that
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church ever,
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ever since.
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SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm going on 12 years here.
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SPEAKER_01: The church was essentially a revitalization.
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SPEAKER_01: Twenty, twenty five people, 30 people.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
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SPEAKER_01: on a Sunday morning and now,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: in God's kindness,
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SPEAKER_01: we've seen an increase of not just attendance,
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SPEAKER_01: but a real desire for discipleship and mission and evangelism.
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SPEAKER_01: So,
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SPEAKER_01: um,
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SPEAKER_01: probably about seven,
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SPEAKER_01: seven years ago,
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SPEAKER_01: seven,
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SPEAKER_01: eight years ago,
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SPEAKER_01: um,
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SPEAKER_01: I,
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SPEAKER_01: I had wanted to do a PhD,
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SPEAKER_01: um,
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SPEAKER_01: I wanted to do it.
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SPEAKER_01: I fell in love with studying.
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I fell in love with history and really fell in love with
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preaching and not just the
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SPEAKER_01: act of preaching,
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SPEAKER_01: but thinking deeply about preaching.
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SPEAKER_01: Preaching is a theological act.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I really hadn't read much on it.
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SPEAKER_01: So I just began to work through it and
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SPEAKER_01: At the time,
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I was doing or I had enrolled in Southern Seminary to do a
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doctorate of educational
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SPEAKER_01: ministry.
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SPEAKER_01: But yet the opportunity presented itself to enroll in Southwestern,
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SPEAKER_01: which is right down the road from me,
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SPEAKER_01: an hour and a half away from from me.
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SPEAKER_01: God opened that door wide open.
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SPEAKER_01: I stepped into it and went to the Ph.D.
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SPEAKER_01: program in preaching and church history,
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SPEAKER_01: which merged,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: the things that I can nerd out about.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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Um,
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you know,
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during that time,
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uh,
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was exposed,
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uh,
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you know,
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to just a plethora of ideas.
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SPEAKER_01: I think some,
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SPEAKER_01: some guys kind of have it in their mind,
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SPEAKER_01: like a PhD in preaching helps you preach better.
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SPEAKER_01: That's not the idea of a PhD in preaching.
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SPEAKER_01: It is,
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SPEAKER_01: uh,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: that,
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SPEAKER_01: that's what you do in your,
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SPEAKER_01: your DM in,
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SPEAKER_01: uh,
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SPEAKER_01: or,
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SPEAKER_01: uh,
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SPEAKER_01: that's what,
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SPEAKER_01: that's what you do in your MDiv.
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SPEAKER_01: But a PhD in preaching is, uh,
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SPEAKER_01: Um, how do these things kind of meld together?
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SPEAKER_01: Let's synthesize some things.
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SPEAKER_01: Uh, let's talk about the history of preaching and, uh,
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you know,
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new homiletic and narrative preaching and all these different
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things.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: I fell in love with a Baptist history of preaching,
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SPEAKER_01: began to realize that there really wasn't much written on it.
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SPEAKER_01: The stuff that was written on it was really good.
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SPEAKER_01: But there wasn't just there wasn't a lot.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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SPEAKER_01: simultaneously within,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: some Baptist circles,
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SPEAKER_01: have friends who were involved with the Center for Baptist Renewal,
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SPEAKER_01: Brandon Smith,
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SPEAKER_01: Winston Hopman,
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SPEAKER_01: Matt Emerson,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: guys like that.
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SPEAKER_01: They're talking about retrieving Baptist churches.
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SPEAKER_01: identity, Baptist distinctives within the great tradition.
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SPEAKER_01: So I thought, man, can we can we do this with preaching?
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SPEAKER_01: Is there a Baptist preaching tradition?
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SPEAKER_01: If there is, what does it look like?
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SPEAKER_01: So that's when I found Benjamin Keech.
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I actually found Keech through a seminar that I took at
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Southwestern by David Allen.
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He was teaching the seminar on the history and theology of
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British preaching.
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SPEAKER_01: Nerd, nerd, nerd, nerd.
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SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
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SPEAKER_01: That was incredible.
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SPEAKER_01: Sounds right up my alley.
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SPEAKER_01: Oh man, it was wonderful because we're getting to read
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: later medieval thoughts on preaching,
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SPEAKER_01: homiletical manuals,
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SPEAKER_01: going into English Reformation,
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SPEAKER_01: then,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: 17th century.
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SPEAKER_01: And I remember having a conversation with Dr. Allen, David Allen,
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SPEAKER_01: And I said, I really want to write on a Baptist.
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SPEAKER_01: And he said,
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SPEAKER_01: that's good,
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but you're going to have to table it for this seminar because
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it's just right
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SPEAKER_01: outside the scope of the years that we were studying.
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SPEAKER_01: So at that time,
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SPEAKER_01: I came across Benjamin Keech and just started reading him.
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SPEAKER_01: Just started reading Keech's sermons,
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SPEAKER_01: reading his writings,
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SPEAKER_01: and really felt a pull towards Keech.
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And that's when I decided that I wanted to write my
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dissertation on Keech's preaching.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's the book that we're talking about now.
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SPEAKER_01: That's a revision of my dissertation.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: it might sound academic,
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SPEAKER_00: and as we've kind of hinted at already,
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SPEAKER_00: it might sound kind of like we're nerding out about Baptist preaching,
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SPEAKER_00: which,
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SPEAKER_00: to be fair,
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SPEAKER_00: your book kind of is,
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SPEAKER_00: but,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: if the boot fits,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess.
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But I think what is so helpful is actually kind of something
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that you kind of
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SPEAKER_00: hinted at a little bit,
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SPEAKER_00: which is that how can we and should we,
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SPEAKER_00: and I think your answer would be the affirmative,
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SPEAKER_00: retrieve a robust theology of preaching from a Baptist perspective,
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SPEAKER_00: which I think is important,
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especially when either you're in the Southern Baptist space or
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whether even you're
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SPEAKER_00: in the independent Baptist space.
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SPEAKER_00: There is a very wide-ranging...
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SPEAKER_00: version of preaching, or there's a wide-ranging approach to preaching.
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SPEAKER_00: And when there's that much variety,
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and we could even say dissimilarity between people that would
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still have the same
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SPEAKER_00: label of Baptists on their church sign,
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what would you say makes for a distinctly Baptist approach to
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proclamation and
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SPEAKER_00: preaching the word?
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Not just from a Kitchean perspective,
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per se,
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but just distinctly Baptist.
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SPEAKER_01: Man, excellent question.
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SPEAKER_01: This is something that I've wrestled and continued to think about, right?
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SPEAKER_01: So learning is all about just working through ideas.
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SPEAKER_01: When,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: of course,
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SPEAKER_01: we're both Baptist ministers that you stick 10 Baptists in a room,
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SPEAKER_01: you're going to get 25 different opinions on everything.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, what color is the carpet?
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SPEAKER_01: Well, it needs to be this shade of blue or whatever.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, you're going to get there.
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You can say one thing about Baptist is there is no such thing
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as a Baptist,
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whatever that means.
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SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: So.
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SPEAKER_01: But I think there's some definitive markers,
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SPEAKER_01: some characteristics,
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SPEAKER_01: I think you could say,
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SPEAKER_01: that could differentiate...
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SPEAKER_01: Baptist proclamation from other forms of proclamation.
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But I think to capture Baptist proclamation within its larger
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context is to think
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SPEAKER_01: through its reformational heritage.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, Baptists are children of
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SPEAKER_01: Of the Puritans,
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SPEAKER_01: English separatists,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: were 17th century,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: post-Reformational people.
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SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a trajectory...
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SPEAKER_01: with this broader Reformed preaching tradition.
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SPEAKER_01: Now, what I mean by Reformed, I don't mean Calvinistic primarily.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about tulip.
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I'm talking about,
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you know,
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a Protestant,
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a hot Protestant type of proclamation.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I think your early Baptist...
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SPEAKER_01: 17th century Baptist,
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both general and then what I'm focused in more particular
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Baptist circles.
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SPEAKER_01: There is a degree of intensity,
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: in their proclamation that you don't necessarily see in,
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SPEAKER_01: of course,
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SPEAKER_01: your
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SPEAKER_01: Church of England preaching in the 17th century.
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Even among some of your Presbyterians,
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you don't see this flavor of preaching.
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SPEAKER_01: One definitive aspect, I think, is...
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SPEAKER_01: So evangelism, proclamation is tied to pulpit evangelism.
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SPEAKER_01: So you read the Westminster Public Directory of Public Worship.
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they don't list a—when they talk about a sermon,
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they don't list an evangelistic component.
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It's edification and comfort and consolation,
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things like that,
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which is all true.
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SPEAKER_01: But your Baptists seemed to—they seemed to—
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go more evangelistic in their,
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they have a more evangelistic aspect of their proclamation.
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SPEAKER_01: You see this,
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SPEAKER_01: now here I'm going to nerd out,
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SPEAKER_01: but you see this like in a 1644 First London Confession.
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They have an article in there on the tender of the gospel is
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absolutely free,
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SPEAKER_01: not requiring the terrors of the law,
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SPEAKER_01: things like that,
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SPEAKER_01: but the bare naked soul,
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SPEAKER_01: placing faith in Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: They make that an explicit article in the 1644 confession to say,
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SPEAKER_01: this is what we believe about preaching.
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And then you fast forward a few decades and you get to Keech,
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for example.
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SPEAKER_01: And Keech, throughout many of his sermons, he has an explicit
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SPEAKER_01: what we could call a free offer of the gospel.
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SPEAKER_01: Even before,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Andrew Fuller is writing,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: the talking about duty,
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SPEAKER_01: faith and anything like that.
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SPEAKER_01: Keech.
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is calling people to come to faith in Christ,
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believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
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SPEAKER_01: You have Hansard Knowles, who's another 17th century particular Baptist.
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SPEAKER_01: Same thing.
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SPEAKER_01: Come to faith in Christ.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
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SPEAKER_01: You may not be part of this, or you saw this years ago about...
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SPEAKER_01: Some some reformed guys kind of scoff at the whole notion of,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Jesus knocking at the door of your heart.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, Jesus doesn't have to knock at the door of your heart.
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SPEAKER_01: He can just bust it in, you know, stuff like that.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, Keech actually uses that line a few times.
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SPEAKER_01: But Jesus stands at the door of your heart.
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SPEAKER_01: He knocks.
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SPEAKER_01: He's calling you.
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SPEAKER_01: He's wooing you.
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SPEAKER_01: Why do you constantly reject him?
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SPEAKER_01: So this affectionate pastoral pleading that you see in his preaching,
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SPEAKER_01: I think Baptists can be really good at that.
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SPEAKER_01: I think another component is...
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SPEAKER_01: we as Baptists,
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SPEAKER_01: our movement started out as,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:29
SPEAKER_01: talking,
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SPEAKER_01: really developing out of an ecclesiological formation.
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SPEAKER_01: So your particular Baptist,
18:40
SPEAKER_01: who,
18:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
18:42
Matthew Bingham talks about how the early particular Baptists
18:46
weren't particular
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Baptists,
18:47
SPEAKER_01: they were Baptistic congregationalists.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: but this group who had become known as particular Baptist,
18:56
SPEAKER_01: they,
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SPEAKER_01: um,
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SPEAKER_01: uh,
18:58
SPEAKER_01: they saw themselves in continuity with the reform tradition.
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SPEAKER_01: Uh,
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SPEAKER_01: but yet there were distinctive markers,
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SPEAKER_01: believers,
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SPEAKER_01: baptism,
19:08
SPEAKER_01: uh,
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SPEAKER_01: being,
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SPEAKER_01: being,
19:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:12
obviously the major thing that differentiated your
19:16
congregationalist and your,
19:18
SPEAKER_01: who had become known as particular Baptists,
19:21
SPEAKER_01: but also their view of polity,
19:25
SPEAKER_01: the role of the minister within a local church.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: So your early Baptistic type of development was ecclesiological focus.
19:40
And so I think when you read,
19:43
here's my conviction,
19:45
I think when you read guys like Keech,
19:48
Knowles,
19:49
Hanser Knowles,
19:52
another English particular Baptist,
19:55
Hercules Collins.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: He's more into the 18th century.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: When you read these guys, there is a
20:04
There's an ecclesiological focus that you don't necessarily see
20:11
in congregational
20:13
SPEAKER_01: or Presbyterian type of preaching.
20:16
I'm not saying that it's not there,
20:18
but there's more flavor in your preaching.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: your Baptist preaching,
20:27
SPEAKER_01: that it becomes more apparent,
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I would say,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: because they're focused in the formation of the covenant community,
20:38
SPEAKER_01: regenerate membership,
20:40
SPEAKER_01: believers baptism.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: So there's a, I guess you could call it a covenantal focus that you don't
20:49
SPEAKER_01: that you may see in some other traditions,
20:54
SPEAKER_01: but within the Baptist,
20:55
SPEAKER_01: early Baptist preaching tradition,
20:57
SPEAKER_01: you definitely see that.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would agree, Michael.
21:01
And it seems to me that some of those things that you're kind
21:04
of hinting at and
21:05
SPEAKER_00: talking around is just this very robust evangelistic appeal.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: That is,
21:12
SPEAKER_00: we could say,
21:12
it kind of pulls on some of those emotional strings that you
21:16
might find in some
21:17
SPEAKER_00: other denominations.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: But that seems to be, at least in my experiences, that's kind of been...
21:23
What makes a Baptistic sermon Baptistic is very strong
21:27
evangelistic notions and
21:30
SPEAKER_00: appealing to the soul to believe,
21:32
SPEAKER_00: as you're saying,
21:33
SPEAKER_00: as Keech,
21:34
SPEAKER_00: even as mentioned in Keech,
21:36
SPEAKER_00: to believe God.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And,
21:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:40
SPEAKER_00: you could make all kinds of biblical parallels here,
21:43
SPEAKER_00: but it seems very robustly tied to the end of Peter's sermon,
21:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:49
SPEAKER_00: at the end of Acts chapter 2.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And the crowd is,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:52
what are we going to do now that we know that Jesus is the Lord
21:54
in Christ while he
21:55
SPEAKER_00: says repent and be baptized?
21:57
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of in that flavor, in that kind of familiar territory.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:03
But I think it's worth considering because I think there is
22:05
this notion of if you
22:08
SPEAKER_00: get,
22:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:08
SPEAKER_00: if you get an Anglican,
22:11
SPEAKER_00: a Presbyterian,
22:11
SPEAKER_00: a Baptist up to preach a sermon,
22:13
SPEAKER_00: they're going to sound very different.
22:15
But I think it's worth considering that,
22:18
especially when it comes to retrieval.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: And you talk a little bit about this in your book,
22:23
SPEAKER_00: but can you kind of explain what you mean by theological retrieval,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: and especially when it comes to
22:29
retrieval of,
22:30
we could say,
22:31
homiletical theology or a theology of preaching?
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to, you know, it's this idea of retrieval.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: Some say it's kind of a fad.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: I would say we do it all the time.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Anytime we talk theology beyond the
22:53
SPEAKER_01: you know, our day and age, we're talking about some sort of retrieval.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know,
23:00
SPEAKER_01: But retrieval,
23:02
SPEAKER_01: to kind of paraphrase Timothy George,
23:05
retrieval isn't taking somebody from the past and dusting them
23:08
off and saying,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: hey,
23:09
SPEAKER_01: look at this guy.
23:11
SPEAKER_01: Retrieval is a rescue operation.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: One reveals our ignorance that we aren't as smart as we think we are,
23:20
SPEAKER_01: and we don't necessarily have all the correct answers.
23:25
Retrieval is going back within our tradition or another
23:29
tradition and saying,
23:30
SPEAKER_01: hey,
23:31
SPEAKER_01: this is what these guys are saying.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And are there are there some things,
23:38
SPEAKER_01: some principles,
23:39
SPEAKER_01: some convictions,
23:40
SPEAKER_01: some theological principles?
23:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: foundational things that we can say,
23:46
SPEAKER_01: man,
23:48
SPEAKER_01: we can go back to that and capture that for our day and age.
23:53
So Timothy George talks about how retrieval is a rescue
23:57
operation for the present
23:59
SPEAKER_01: moment,
24:00
SPEAKER_01: that sometimes,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Gavin Ortlund says,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: sometimes the best way to move forward is to go backwards.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think, one, that's just part of a, I think that's just,
24:14
SPEAKER_01: Christian in general, you think about the pattern of the New Testament.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: Salvation,
24:21
the way salvation is presented in the New Testament is through
24:24
the lens of the
24:25
SPEAKER_01: Exodus.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: You see this in the Psalms.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: I was reading the Psalms this morning that salvation is...
24:36
is exodus it's redemption from enemies and things like that
24:41
well that's retrieval
24:42
you're you're seeing how this kind of provides a paradigm a
24:48
framework and that then
24:50
becomes a a lens through which you begin to apply certain
24:57
things so when it comes
24:58
SPEAKER_01: to homiletical retrieval
25:03
SPEAKER_01: What I'm advocating and what others advocate for
25:11
is thinking about preaching within the context of the communion
25:17
of saints.
25:19
That we are not isolated individuals who have independent
25:25
thoughts about preaching,
25:26
SPEAKER_01: but we have 2,000 years of church tradition to say,
25:30
SPEAKER_01: hey,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of material here.
25:36
SPEAKER_01: You think about
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Going back to Augustine,
25:39
SPEAKER_01: for example,
25:42
SPEAKER_01: he's the first one to really write a preaching manual,
25:45
SPEAKER_01: a homiletical manual,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: with Teaching Christianity Book 4.
25:51
You go through the medieval period,
25:53
you have homiletical manuals that are produced.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: You come into pre-Reformation and Reformation, post-Reformation.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: William Perkins, The Art of Prophesying.
26:05
You constantly have a stream within the Christian tradition
26:14
talking about aspects of preaching.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: how preaching should be done,
26:19
SPEAKER_01: methodology,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: theology,
26:23
SPEAKER_01: communication,
26:24
SPEAKER_01: what's the relationship between preaching and the ordinances,
26:27
all these different things that within a 21st century world
26:33
context that we live
26:34
SPEAKER_01: in,
26:35
we may not even be aware that we need to be thinking through
26:38
these things.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: So part of what I'm aiming at is to say,
26:47
SPEAKER_01: Someone like Keech, this is what he says about preaching.
26:53
SPEAKER_01: So building a systematic theology of preaching to say,
27:00
SPEAKER_01: okay,
27:02
SPEAKER_01: he sees preaching intrinsically related to the ordinances.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: How have we neglected that in our own preaching?
27:15
He sees preaching as the God-ordained means to bring salvation
27:25
to a lost humanity.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: And so...
27:29
SPEAKER_01: Keech is going to have a deep understanding about the minister himself.
27:36
So now we're talking about a theology of preaching and then the
27:40
anthropological
27:42
SPEAKER_01: aspect of preaching.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: What's the identity of the communicator?
27:46
SPEAKER_01: He's an ambassador.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: So how does Keech understand the role of an ambassador?
27:51
SPEAKER_01: It's twofold.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: It's human and divine.
27:55
And so now we talk about the efficacy of the spirit,
27:59
the effectual work of the spirit.
28:01
So you take one aspect of homiletical theology and you start
28:09
seeing there's,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: oh man,
28:10
SPEAKER_01: there's connecting points everywhere.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: And so what you're doing is
28:16
SPEAKER_01: You're providing a foundation below the foundation.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: Kind of give you an illustration of this.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: At the church here in 2022, 2023, we had to build a new worship center.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: The current building that we were in didn't have space.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: So church voted to build a new worship space.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: So we went through that entire process, signed all the contracts.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Contractor said,
28:49
SPEAKER_01: okay,
28:49
here's what the first thing that we need to do is before we
28:53
even lay a foundation,
28:55
SPEAKER_01: we have to get a drilling sample,
28:57
SPEAKER_01: a soil sample.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: So...
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Engineers came out,
29:01
SPEAKER_01: drilled core samples,
29:02
and they found out that our foundation is horrible where the
29:07
church is at.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: It shifts all these different things, clay and rock, all this stuff.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: We needed something.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Our foundation is.
29:20
We couldn't just lay concrete because that concrete would warp
29:24
and shift.
29:25
We needed to drill 75 pillars 50 feet down into the soil in
29:32
order to hold that foundation up.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: So we can think about our homiletical method,
29:38
SPEAKER_01: the way we preach,
29:41
SPEAKER_01: whether it's text-driven or Christ-centered preaching.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: We can think about that as the foundation.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: that holds the building up,
29:50
but a theology of preaching is the pillars that are driven into
29:55
the soil that hold
29:58
SPEAKER_01: the foundation firm so that it won't shift and manipulate.
30:02
So that's what I'm thinking through whenever I talk about a
30:06
theology of preaching,
30:07
SPEAKER_01: retrieving a theology of preaching.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: What are the foundational core principles that
30:18
baptist in particular have have agreed upon so this this then
30:26
transcends categories
30:28
of calvinist or non-calvinist or dispensational or covenantal
30:35
or whatever other
30:37
SPEAKER_01: flavor of
30:38
SPEAKER_01: you know, theological ice cream you want, you know, your life.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: These foundations are core foundations,
30:48
SPEAKER_01: I think,
30:49
SPEAKER_01: that can uphold a general,
30:53
SPEAKER_01: generalized,
30:54
SPEAKER_01: baptistic,
30:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:57
SPEAKER_01: theology of proclamation,
30:59
SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it totally makes sense.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: And in light of that project,
31:06
SPEAKER_00: I think what comes with,
31:08
SPEAKER_00: and I think you kind of mentioned this,
31:09
SPEAKER_00: but I think it's worth even honing in on even further is this,
31:13
SPEAKER_00: the notion of retrieval kind of necessitates this
31:18
also this idea that there's something that needs to be
31:21
retrieved for our moment,
31:23
which is to say that there's things that are either not as
31:27
robust as they used to
31:28
SPEAKER_00: be,
31:29
SPEAKER_00: or they're not as considered as highly or as gravely or as sincerely.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: And so when it comes...
31:38
we're two guys that I could definitely probably say that we
31:41
have a vested interest
31:42
SPEAKER_00: in what it means to preach a sermon and,
31:45
SPEAKER_00: and all that goes along with that.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: And yet we're living in this present moment of,
31:50
of artificial intelligence with this full gambit of different
31:55
methodologies towards
31:56
preaching that have been informed by either social media or
32:00
marketing or the
32:01
SPEAKER_00: business world or what have you.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Um,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: And so what would you say is not necessarily just Keach,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: but we can talk about him for sure,
32:08
but what would you say is one thing that you would say needs to
32:12
be retrieved,
32:14
SPEAKER_00: either for just Baptist preaching or for preaching in general?
32:18
What would you say is something that we are desperate to
32:21
retrieve,
32:22
if you will?
32:25
SPEAKER_01: One aspect, and this is probably more of a...
32:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
32:32
SPEAKER_01: a hobby horse,
32:34
SPEAKER_01: maybe I'll just throw my cards down on the table or a pet,
32:37
kind of a pet peeve maybe is the lack of seriousness when it
32:43
comes to preaching
32:45
SPEAKER_01: that we have got to retrieve a deeper spirituality when,
32:51
SPEAKER_01: when we think about preaching and we,
32:55
SPEAKER_01: we need to see preaching as,
32:59
as your reformers,
33:01
uh,
33:02
not just reformers,
33:03
but your patristics,
33:04
how they viewed preaching.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: Um,
33:08
SPEAKER_01: and,
33:08
SPEAKER_01: and,
33:08
SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to use a word that may scare some,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: listening to this,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: but,
33:13
SPEAKER_01: uh,
33:14
SPEAKER_01: sacramentalism,
33:16
SPEAKER_01: a healthy Baptist sacramentalism that,
33:20
SPEAKER_01: um,
33:22
SPEAKER_01: And again,
33:24
SPEAKER_01: to use Keech kind of as the example,
33:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm convinced that Keech had a warm,
33:35
SPEAKER_01: deep,
33:36
spiritual understanding of preaching that you don't see in
33:41
contemporary Baptist
33:42
SPEAKER_01: circles a lot,
33:44
SPEAKER_01: where he would say something to the effect of...
33:50
SPEAKER_01: the bread and the word are dry without the presence of Christ in them.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: So he says, where the gospel goes, God goes.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: That preaching is a pledge of God's presence.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: And that's...
34:17
SPEAKER_01: You can call it the real presence of Christ in the proclamation event.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: And that within Keech, and I would say the larger Reformed tradition...
34:30
that is tied to this deep understanding that preaching is not
34:36
merely a human being
34:38
SPEAKER_01: communicating to other human beings,
34:41
SPEAKER_01: but it's God actually communicating through the human ambassador.
34:47
So you have the second Helvitic confession where preaching the
34:53
word of God is the word of God.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: and before people just kind of lose their mind and say,
34:59
SPEAKER_01: oh my goodness,
35:00
SPEAKER_01: what does that even mean?
35:01
SPEAKER_01: That is pervasive in English Reformation preaching.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: So all the children of the English Reformation and then post-Reformation,
35:16
this is their mindset by and large and how they view preaching
35:21
that it is actually
35:22
SPEAKER_01: Christ communicating in
35:25
SPEAKER_01: in the proclamation event.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: If the minister is empowered by the Spirit,
35:31
SPEAKER_01: preaching the demonstration of the Spirit,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: if he's faithful to the Word,
35:35
SPEAKER_01: and the hearers receive the Word by faith,
35:38
SPEAKER_01: it is as if Christ is actually communicating because He is.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think when we talk about how long a sermon should be,
35:54
SPEAKER_01: or certain rhetorical techniques, which are all fine and dandy.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: But when that becomes kind of the thing that we're known for,
36:06
SPEAKER_01: the oratory,
36:08
SPEAKER_01: but our preaching is not marked by a distinctive presence of God,
36:16
SPEAKER_01: I think we're missing something that is...
36:23
One,
36:23
it's not Baptist,
36:25
but I would say it's not even New Testament preaching.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: That in the preaching moment,
36:33
SPEAKER_01: God in some way transcends the historical,
36:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:38
SPEAKER_01: the cross now becomes a present reality in the preaching moment.
36:44
And,
36:44
you know,
36:47
I think that's an aspect that we should really think about.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
36:53
I like that notion of,
36:56
you call it sacramentalism,
36:58
but there's this seriousness with which that
37:03
SPEAKER_00: with which should pervade the preaching moment.
37:06
The event of the sermon is not just this throwaway thing that
37:11
becomes part of the
37:12
SPEAKER_00: church's worship.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: It is the church's worship.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: And that's a rabbit trail that people have gone on about,
37:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:20
SPEAKER_00: calling musicians,
37:21
SPEAKER_00: worship leaders,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: and I don't mean to be...
37:24
SPEAKER_00: You said you're a curmudgeon,
37:25
SPEAKER_00: so maybe you would share the same opinion,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: but that brings out the curmudgeonly side in me,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: which is this notion that...
37:31
SPEAKER_00: There's worship leaders, and then there's a pastor.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, this kind of segregates what the sermon is viewed as.
37:39
It's not viewed as this other thing that the church does when
37:44
they come to worship,
37:45
SPEAKER_00: when,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: in fact,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: the preaching of the word is the church's worship,
37:50
SPEAKER_00: and it has been since the days of the apostles.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: And
37:54
SPEAKER_00: that should be the pervading image of what we have in our minds.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: I,
38:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:01
SPEAKER_00: not to pick on,
38:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:02
like the big mega churches or even like the churches that have
38:06
like awesome praise
38:07
SPEAKER_00: and worship bands or whatever.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: But I think when we think of worship,
38:10
SPEAKER_00: I think colloquially it's these worship sets that are like concerts,
38:17
SPEAKER_00: which are fine.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: It's all well and good and dandy.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to like, you know, harp on that.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: But actually,
38:22
the church's worship is having the word opened by a proclaimer
38:28
and having that word
38:29
proclaimed in the ears of sinners and having them either repent
38:34
and believe for the
38:35
SPEAKER_00: first time or having their faith being built up by the Holy Spirit.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: That's the church's worship.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: And that comes from a robust view of what the preaching moment is, right?
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Your early Baptists,
38:55
SPEAKER_01: I think,
38:55
made a distinct decision to orient their worship around the
39:03
word with proclamation
39:08
SPEAKER_01: being the pinnacle.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: Now, that's part of the Reformed tradition.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: Your Presbyterians, your Congregationalists, we're doing that.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: But your Baptists,
39:19
SPEAKER_01: because there was this ecclesiological emphasis,
39:24
SPEAKER_01: they saw worship not segregated in terms of,
39:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: we got our four songs here,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: we got our offering,
39:33
SPEAKER_01: and then we got...
39:34
SPEAKER_01: you know, our worship time.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: Now,
39:38
SPEAKER_01: I do think there's kind of a historical component where we as,
39:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:45
SPEAKER_01: we have inherited a tradition that we don't even know we've inherited.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: But in American Christianity, you have
39:57
the influence of the second great awakening with the prairie
40:02
revivals and things
40:04
SPEAKER_01: like that,
40:05
SPEAKER_01: where essentially the order of worship was,
40:10
SPEAKER_01: was developed.
40:12
Your,
40:12
your Methodist,
40:13
your itinerants,
40:15
your frontier Baptist,
40:17
they kind of adopted this.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: And again,
40:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm just speaking generally here,
40:22
SPEAKER_01: but they kind of adopted this worship service of the,
40:26
SPEAKER_01: of singing sermon invitation,
40:31
SPEAKER_01: kind of this three-part order of worship,
40:36
SPEAKER_01: which became this liturgy,
40:38
SPEAKER_01: essentially.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: And many of our Baptist churches,
40:42
SPEAKER_01: and I would say many of our just evangelical churches in general,
40:47
SPEAKER_01: follow kind of that method.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, here's our, we worship God in song,
40:53
we hear the preaching of the word,
40:56
and then we respond during the invitation.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, that became a liturgy that many of us have inherited.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Well,
41:05
SPEAKER_01: when we push it back a little bit further,
41:10
SPEAKER_01: you know,
41:10
SPEAKER_01: into the 17th and 16th century,
41:13
SPEAKER_01: we see that that kind of falls apart,
41:17
SPEAKER_01: that there's more of a...
41:20
SPEAKER_01: a greater emphasis upon the presence of God in the singing,
41:28
SPEAKER_01: in the proclamation of the word,
41:30
SPEAKER_01: in the administration of the ordinances.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: So you're going to have your baptist
41:36
SPEAKER_01: Keech,
41:37
SPEAKER_01: for example,
41:37
SPEAKER_01: again,
41:38
SPEAKER_01: Keech is the guy that I'm more familiar with,
41:42
but you're going to have Keech who says that God has given
41:46
these ordinary means to
41:49
SPEAKER_01: communicate the benefits of redemption to us,
41:51
SPEAKER_01: which include reading,
41:54
SPEAKER_01: preaching,
41:56
SPEAKER_01: prayer,
41:57
SPEAKER_01: and the administration of the ordinances.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: He calls those, you know, these are the
42:03
these are the ordinances that Christ has given us for our
42:07
benefit in education or
42:09
SPEAKER_01: our benefit in,
42:10
SPEAKER_01: in growth and edification and so forth.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: Well,
42:14
SPEAKER_01: I,
42:15
SPEAKER_01: I think,
42:16
SPEAKER_01: and,
42:16
SPEAKER_01: and,
42:16
SPEAKER_01: and I'm,
42:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm really not trying to critique or poke or prod or anything like that.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm just kind of making general observations again.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: I think our contemporary worship, um, is, um,
42:33
SPEAKER_01: Song, sermon, invitation, then leave.
42:38
SPEAKER_01: And there's not a continuity.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: What holds all that together should be the word.
42:46
SPEAKER_01: It should be the presence of God in the proclamation of the word,
42:51
SPEAKER_01: in the reading of scriptures,
42:52
SPEAKER_01: in the administration of the ordinances and so forth.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I think your early Baptist captured that.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's an aspect I think that we can retrieve as well.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really good, Michael.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's important because I think you mentioned this,
43:10
SPEAKER_00: but I think we can even just say we feel this,
43:13
SPEAKER_00: that there's the pulpit.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: I think even preaching,
43:17
SPEAKER_00: you could say,
43:18
SPEAKER_00: is kind of,
43:19
SPEAKER_00: it's not in a state of crisis,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: but it feels like it is sometimes.
43:22
And maybe that's just because of everything going on or either
43:26
without the church
43:27
SPEAKER_00: or within the church.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: But there seems to be this
43:31
SPEAKER_00: question of what is...
43:35
SPEAKER_00: What's the purpose of preaching in 2026?
43:39
Why is this still something that the church does or spends a
43:45
lot of focus on?
43:46
SPEAKER_00: Like such as yourself,
43:48
you've spent so many years academically investigating all of
43:52
this historical basis
43:54
SPEAKER_00: and all this kind of stuff for it.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: And some people might denigrate that.
43:59
SPEAKER_00: But what would you say is...
44:02
SPEAKER_00: the,
44:03
SPEAKER_00: the longevity,
44:04
SPEAKER_00: why,
44:05
SPEAKER_00: why is preaching this,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: this ministry of the word that has longevity to it?
44:10
SPEAKER_00: Um,
44:10
SPEAKER_00: you make a good or really good,
44:12
SPEAKER_00: um,
44:12
SPEAKER_00: historical case for,
44:14
SPEAKER_00: um,
44:14
SPEAKER_00: in your book,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: which,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: um,
44:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm,
44:16
SPEAKER_00: I've just found really,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: really,
44:18
SPEAKER_00: really wonderful.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: Um,
44:21
SPEAKER_00: how we commonly view a sermon now is,
44:24
SPEAKER_00: was kind of this thing that developed over centuries,
44:27
SPEAKER_00: we could say decades per se,
44:29
SPEAKER_00: um,
44:29
SPEAKER_00: in the history of the church.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: So, um, it,
44:32
SPEAKER_00: What would you say to someone who is kind of like wondering,
44:35
SPEAKER_00: like,
44:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:36
SPEAKER_00: what's the point of all this oratory?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: What's the point of all of this proclamation in 2026?
44:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the... Man, we could talk about this forever.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: I think it goes back to simple foundational...
45:00
SPEAKER_01: the way God set things up prior to creation and in creation.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: So John chapter one tells us in the beginning was the word,
45:11
SPEAKER_01: the word was with God and the word was God.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
45:13
So you have this face to face communication between the father
45:20
and the word.
45:22
So what's happening before creation,
45:24
there's communication that's taking place.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: We don't know what that is,
45:28
SPEAKER_01: but there's some sort of relationship,
45:31
this reciprocity of communication where the Word and the Father
45:37
and we can assume
45:37
SPEAKER_01: the Spirit have this relationship.
45:40
connection there well in creation how does god create he
45:44
creates via communication
45:47
and what does uh what what is the definitive gift uh in genesis
45:56
chapter two that
45:58
god tells adam to do what what is what is he called to do he's
46:01
called to name
46:04
SPEAKER_01: the animals, right?
46:05
SPEAKER_01: To speak over the animals, to identify them.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And then the first thing that
46:15
SPEAKER_01: that Adam says to Eve, he recites a poem, essentially.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: I would say he gives a sermon.
46:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh type thing.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, what it means to be human is the fact that we communicate.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: We speak to each other.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: And when there is when,
46:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:45
SPEAKER_01: and of course,
46:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
46:45
SPEAKER_01: this is a pastor,
46:47
SPEAKER_01: but marriages fail because there's a lack of communication.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: Churches break down because of the lack of communication.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: But yet the church, as Luther says, we are a mouth house.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: We are a communicative people because our God is a communicative God.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: He speaks to us via his word.
47:08
SPEAKER_01: And.
47:11
And so I think preaching is important because it is
47:16
foundational to the character of God.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: It is foundational to what it means to be human, to communicate.
47:26
SPEAKER_01: And with AI and, you know, the advancements of
47:35
SPEAKER_01: you know,
47:36
SPEAKER_01: our 21st century world,
47:37
SPEAKER_01: I think we as preachers,
47:41
SPEAKER_01: we've got to,
47:43
SPEAKER_01: I think we can utilize those things in a helpful,
47:47
SPEAKER_01: creative way.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm not dismissing any of that.
47:51
But I think we have got to play the long game like we've been
47:56
doing for 2,000 years
47:57
SPEAKER_01: of our tradition,
48:00
SPEAKER_01: Christian tradition of the slow,
48:03
SPEAKER_01: steady,
48:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:07
sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon for
48:15
the time that we
48:16
SPEAKER_01: have left on this earth as preachers,
48:19
SPEAKER_01: that we stand up and we preach and we teach and we don't need to
48:26
SPEAKER_01: be overwhelmed by what's happening in the world.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: We just need the slow, steady plotting of, of sowing the word.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's why I think preaching matters.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: Now,
48:38
SPEAKER_01: I,
48:38
SPEAKER_01: again,
48:39
SPEAKER_01: I think we can talk about different techniques and,
48:41
SPEAKER_01: uh,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: I,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: I teach preaching at Southwestern,
48:46
SPEAKER_01: uh,
48:47
SPEAKER_01: uh,
48:48
SPEAKER_01: lecture on,
48:49
SPEAKER_01: on preaching and,
48:50
SPEAKER_01: uh,
48:51
SPEAKER_01: And things like that.
48:52
And in there we talk about sermonic delivery and the use of
48:56
rhetoric,
48:57
all those.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: I think, man, that is so much fun to talk about.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: And we need to talk about those things.
49:02
SPEAKER_01: But I think foundationally preaching matters because it matters to God.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Because God is the ultimate preacher.
49:10
And so in a rapidly fast-paced,
49:14
moving world,
49:15
we continue not to raise our voice the loudest,
49:22
SPEAKER_01: but we continue just to speak.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: We speak the word of God and let him do the work.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: We've kind of hinted all around it,
49:33
SPEAKER_00: but your book,
49:33
SPEAKER_00: The Word of the Salvation in the Mouths of Christ Ministers,
49:36
SPEAKER_00: which is just a fantastic title,
49:38
SPEAKER_00: but it's your attempt to retrieve a theology of preaching,
49:42
SPEAKER_00: especially through the life and ministry of Benjamin Keech,
49:45
SPEAKER_00: which we've kind of been dancing around for this whole time.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: But
49:50
SPEAKER_00: What is something that surprised you?
49:53
Like you talked about sort of finding Keech in your academic
49:58
study and research and whatnot.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: As you dove more into Keech's writings and sermons and whatnot,
50:05
what is something that kind of surprised you when it came to
50:08
either his homiletical
50:10
SPEAKER_00: theology or just Keech in general?
50:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I say it in the preface.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: I find Keech very ordinary.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by ordinary is he wasn't perfect.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: He was flawed.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: He tries to do...
50:45
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that he tries to do is use metaphor.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: So he tries to master metaphor.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
50:55
SPEAKER_01: but sometimes,
50:56
SPEAKER_01: man,
50:56
SPEAKER_01: he just stretches the metaphor where it's like,
51:00
SPEAKER_01: man,
51:00
SPEAKER_01: you can't,
51:01
SPEAKER_01: you,
51:01
SPEAKER_01: you can't do that.
51:02
Like you've gone,
51:03
wait,
51:03
now you're starting to allegorize some things like we can't do
51:06
this.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: But for Keech, it is a pastoral thing.
51:11
Uh,
51:12
he,
51:13
his,
51:14
he's not trying to be creative for the sense of being creative.
51:17
He's trying to explain the truth as simply as he possibly can
51:21
with real-world
51:23
SPEAKER_01: metaphors,
51:25
SPEAKER_01: illustrations,
51:26
SPEAKER_01: and so forth.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: He has a series of sermons on the covenant of grace.
51:41
And so he preaches a series of sermons on the covenant of
51:43
grace,
51:44
and he ends up changing.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: Instead of the covenant of grace, he calls it the covenant of peace.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: And he does that, I think, for a few reasons.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: One,
51:59
I think it allows him to use the metaphor of peace and war as
52:05
an illustrative way
52:06
SPEAKER_01: to describe our hostility towards God,
52:10
SPEAKER_01: the peace treaty of Christ's death,
52:13
SPEAKER_01: the terms of the treaty,
52:15
SPEAKER_01: which is faith.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: He begins that whole sermon,
52:20
SPEAKER_01: those series of sermons,
52:21
SPEAKER_01: with the illustration of a war that broke out
52:25
SPEAKER_01: uh, in, uh, you know, the world, a national, a national war.
52:29
SPEAKER_01: And he says essentially,
52:31
SPEAKER_01: but there's another war that,
52:33
SPEAKER_01: uh,
52:34
SPEAKER_01: another sense of peace that you need to be aware about.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: And this, the peace that you can have with, with Christ.
52:39
So he,
52:40
he's,
52:40
he's using these metaphors,
52:41
but again,
52:42
I think he stretches it sometimes.
52:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh, he writes this book, um,
52:50
tropologia and it's he goes through metaphors similes all these
52:58
different things
52:58
SPEAKER_01: and you read through it and you're like man that's really good
53:02
SPEAKER_01: oh, that's not so good.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: Where did you get that from?
53:07
SPEAKER_01: So I find Keech very ordinary.
53:11
SPEAKER_01: He's flawed.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: His Greek isn't that good.
53:16
SPEAKER_01: He tries to do Greek work, and it's like, oh, man, you know.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: you can't go that route.
53:25
But yet I reflect on my,
53:27
my own preaching is like,
53:28
Oh my goodness,
53:29
you can't do that.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: Don't say that.
53:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, I hate listening to myself preach.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: It's like, Oh, why did I, why did I say that?
53:37
SPEAKER_01: Um,
53:39
SPEAKER_01: he,
53:39
SPEAKER_01: um,
53:41
SPEAKER_01: uh,
53:41
SPEAKER_01: so that,
53:42
SPEAKER_01: that's just from,
53:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:45
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the human,
53:48
SPEAKER_01: uh,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: of,
53:49
SPEAKER_01: of Benjamin Keech.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: He's a pastor.
53:51
SPEAKER_01: Um,
53:54
From all the historical evidence,
53:56
he only pastored one church in South London.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: He pastored the church at Horsley Down, which that...
54:09
SPEAKER_01: You talk about a series of pastors.
54:10
SPEAKER_01: You have Keech and you have his son-in-law, Benjamin Stinton.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: Then you have John Gill,
54:19
SPEAKER_01: John Rippon,
54:19
SPEAKER_01: and then you have Charles Spurgeon,
54:21
SPEAKER_01: who follow in the same line as Keech at this congregation,
54:27
SPEAKER_01: although they move locations and so forth.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: But...
54:32
SPEAKER_01: I say in the book that we should view Keech as an ecclesial theologian.
54:39
SPEAKER_01: He's a pastor theologian.
54:42
SPEAKER_01: He's writing against issues in his day.
54:45
He is writing against Richard Baxter,
54:48
his view of justification and baptism.
54:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:52
SPEAKER_01: He's, you know, riding against the Quakers.
54:58
SPEAKER_01: He's in this controversy,
55:00
SPEAKER_01: even within his own denomination,
55:01
SPEAKER_01: about singing hymns,
55:04
SPEAKER_01: all these different things.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: So he's in the mix of doing all these things.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, he's preaching sermons every week.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: He's ministering to real people in a real need in the midst of
55:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:20
plagues and London burning and all these different things and
55:25
politicians that are
55:26
SPEAKER_01: dying.
55:27
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, he's living in the real world.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: And I think for me,
55:35
the thing that attracted me most to Keech was his desire to be
55:44
as simple as he
55:45
SPEAKER_01: possibly could.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: He's not afraid to talk about deep things,
55:56
SPEAKER_01: but yet he tries to communicate it in a very simple way,
56:02
which is then upheld by this really substantial deep theology
56:09
of proclamation.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: That's good, Michael.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: And it kind of hints at even like what you have titled your book.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: It's the word of God in the mouth of Christ ministers.
56:21
And you could kind of insert a word in the mouths of these
56:25
flawed speakers.
56:26
This humanness of key kind of owes itself to the fact that
56:31
those who have been...
56:33
called or those who've been summoned to preach this word
56:37
doesn't mean that they've
56:38
necessarily had all of these things figured out or they've
56:41
accomplished some sort
56:42
SPEAKER_00: of holiness within their own lives,
56:45
SPEAKER_00: but they've often been called despite themselves.
56:48
I often think of that moment in the book of Exodus when Moses
56:52
is called to go
56:53
SPEAKER_00: before Pharaoh,
56:54
SPEAKER_00: and essentially he's being called into this ministry of preaching,
56:57
SPEAKER_00: which he's going to end up being
56:59
SPEAKER_00: a preacher to his own people, the Israelites.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: And he is just falling over himself all the time,
57:06
SPEAKER_00: trying to find ways that he can excuse himself from this calling.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: I can't speak well.
57:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't have any type of ability.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: And yet God is, he over and over again, Exodus 3 and 4, he
57:18
He repeatedly says to Moses that it's going to be my words in
57:22
your mouth.
57:23
SPEAKER_00: Like,
57:23
SPEAKER_00: these are the words that you're going to be speaking,
57:25
which owes—you can kind of see the echoes of what Christ would
57:29
eventually say to
57:30
SPEAKER_00: his apostles that,
57:31
SPEAKER_00: hey,
57:31
SPEAKER_00: don't worry about what you're going to say when you get called before the
57:35
magistrates because the Spirit is going to give you these words
57:38
if and when you
57:41
SPEAKER_00: need them.
57:42
SPEAKER_00: That's right, yeah.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of relieving.
57:45
It's kind of that notion of my own flaws don't have any bearing
57:51
on whether the Word
57:52
SPEAKER_00: of God is going to go forth.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: It's going to go forth despite me.
57:56
The Word of God doesn't return void because I've mastered the
58:01
art of rhetoric or oratory.
58:03
SPEAKER_00: The Word of God goes forth because the Spirit brings it forth,
58:06
which kind of circles us back to that note of the sacramental
58:11
sort of elements of
58:12
SPEAKER_00: preaching.
58:13
SPEAKER_00: And it helps us realize who's actually effective in this sermon,
58:19
SPEAKER_00: which I think is very,
58:20
SPEAKER_00: very helpful,
58:22
SPEAKER_00: especially for our present moment.
58:25
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: I think the...
58:26
SPEAKER_01: I think when just possibly a helpful way to kind of apply it,
58:38
SPEAKER_01: this whole conversation is to think through...
58:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the, what does it mean for a minister to be a, to be an ambassador?
58:49
SPEAKER_01: Um,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: so the,
58:52
SPEAKER_01: the title of the book is,
58:53
SPEAKER_01: uh,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: the word of salvation,
58:56
SPEAKER_01: uh,
58:57
SPEAKER_01: this word of salvation mouth,
58:59
SPEAKER_01: mouths of Christ ministers.
59:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, that comes from a sermon where Keech is talking about the role.
59:10
It's a section in the sermon,
59:12
the role and the function of the preaching minister.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: And he's using the metaphor of an ambassador.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: And I make a point in the book to say that I'm convinced that
59:28
the way we understand Keech's theology of preaching is through
59:32
this metaphor of
59:33
SPEAKER_01: ambassador,
59:33
SPEAKER_01: um,
59:35
SPEAKER_01: where he views the ambassador as the human agent of,
59:41
being the catalyst or the instrument through which the Spirit
59:46
of God is speaking,
59:49
that it is Christ by virtue of the Spirit through the human
59:53
communicating to his
59:54
SPEAKER_01: people.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: Keech is going to say,
59:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:00
SPEAKER_01: God did not send us an angel,
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: but he sent us men to preach the word.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_01: And for Keech,
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: this ambassador metaphor,
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: and I think it's found in the larger Reformed preaching tradition,
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: but this ambassador metaphor becomes this dominant,
1:00:22
SPEAKER_01: humbling,
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: identifying mark to say,
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: man,
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: we're just an instrument in the Redeemer's hands.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: It's really not about...
1:00:35
SPEAKER_01: slick communication.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not about a 20-minute sermon versus a 45-minute sermon.
1:00:42
It is about simply being faithful to communicate what God has
1:00:46
already said in His Word.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: And in that section of Keech's sermon where he uses that phrase,
1:00:55
SPEAKER_01: the Word of the Salvation,
1:00:59
SPEAKER_01: he says essentially to the congregation,
1:01:02
SPEAKER_01: why do you despise
1:01:05
SPEAKER_01: the minister and his preaching.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: Don't you realize that when you despise the minister,
1:01:10
SPEAKER_01: you are actually despising Christ communicating?
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: Did not Christ speak to you?
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:01:19
he still continues to speak to you day after day through us
1:01:22
poor ministers,
1:01:23
SPEAKER_01: Keech says.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_01: And so he views the ambassador as a gift of God to the church.
1:01:32
SPEAKER_01: And so many times as pastors,
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: we view ourselves and maybe it's just me because I am a curmudgeon,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: and,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: and a negative light,
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm not doing enough or I'm not doing this or someone doesn't like me,
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:01:47
SPEAKER_01: someone doesn't like my shirt or they don't like what I say instead of,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_01: of seeing ourselves as,
1:01:54
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:01:56
You know,
1:01:57
this – it's not my giftedness that makes me special,
1:02:01
but it's Christ's calling.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_01: And he won't let me fail.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: He, you know, is going to protect.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_01: He is going to communicate even when I don't have –
1:02:17
10 hours in a week to,
1:02:19
you know,
1:02:19
work on a sermon,
1:02:20
he's going to do it because he is faithful.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: It's his church, not ours.
1:02:26
SPEAKER_01: And for Keech,
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: that ambassador metaphor,
1:02:29
I think becomes a readily applicable way to apply that theology
1:02:38
of preaching.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: That's good, Michael.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: Where can folks find your book and where can they connect with you?
1:02:45
Yeah,
1:02:45
so I don't have Instagram or X or anything like that,
1:02:50
but I'm on Facebook.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: I write in different blogs.
1:02:56
I write at Equip the Cold,
1:02:58
which is Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary,
1:03:02
their hub for
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: pushing out information and articles.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_01: I write for Center of Baptist Renewal,
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: but you can also check out the church website,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_01: gccmaybank.org.
1:03:19
SPEAKER_01: You can find a link to the book there,
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: or you can go to Amazon,
1:03:23
SPEAKER_01: just type in the title and it'll pop up there.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:27
Make sure you check out the links to the show in the notes
1:03:30
section where you can
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: find all that and make sure to get you.
1:03:33
If you haven't yet,
1:03:34
make sure you get connected with Michael,
1:03:36
get his book,
1:03:36
grab a copy.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: I think if you're interested at all in preaching,
1:03:40
this book that Michael has kind of put together is going to be
1:03:44
something that
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: you're going to want to read and digest.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: So Michael, thanks for coming on.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: It's been so great talking to you.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_00: So hopefully we can make this happen again.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, Brad.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, man.
1:03:56
Thanks so much for listening to this particular episode of the
1:03:58
Ministry Minded Podcast.
1:04:00
If you want to connect with Michael or buy his book,
1:04:02
make sure you visit the show notes.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: All the links for all that kind of stuff is going to be in the notes,
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: so make sure you visit that.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: Click on him and buy his book.
1:04:10
I know you're going to be blessed by it,
1:04:11
especially if you're a pastor or preacher.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: I think you're going to really, really enjoy this book.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: subscribe to the Ministry of Mighty podcast, please do so.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: You can subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, right here on Substack.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: All of those subscriptions go a long way.
1:04:27
And so thank you so much for just for your continued support
1:04:31
and your encouragement.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: I love getting all the notes that I've been getting recently.
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for that.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: It's been a blessing.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully these conversations are a blessing to you.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully they enrich your faith and they encourage you to continue on
1:04:44
SPEAKER_00: walking with the Lord.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: That's why they're here.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: That's why I produced them.
1:04:48
It's for you to help you as you continue walking with the Lord
1:04:52
all along the way,
1:04:52
SPEAKER_00: no matter what your ministry looks like,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: whether it's in a church or whether it's at your work.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully,
1:04:58
you'll be able to be encouraged by the fact that there is a
1:05:01
ministry that God has
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: given you,
1:05:02
SPEAKER_00: and it's a ministry of mercy.
1:05:04
It's a ministry of the word of the salvation in the mouths of
1:05:07
Christ ministers.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_00: And even if you're not a public preacher, that's still your ministry too.
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening to this one.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: Until the next one, God bless you.