Latest / Tony & Sarah Unscripted / EP 9: Faith, Truth, and Finding Each Other, Part 2

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EP 9: Faith, Truth, and Finding Each Other, Part 2 · Tony & Sarah Unscripted

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This episode contains discussions of sexual abuse and suicide.
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These topics may be distressing or triggering for some listeners.
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Please take care while listening,
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and feel free to skip this episode or pause at any time if you need to.
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Listener discretion is advised.
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Hi, everyone.
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Welcome to this episode of Tony and Sarah Unscripted.
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Sarah is not here today, but she is definitely here in spirit.
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But we want to welcome back Tim and Eddie.
0:35
Welcome back to the show.
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We had to have them back on.
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Your stories were amazing.
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We weren't done with the conversation and I want to share what I held
0:44
really close to my heart from that episode was, Tim, I believe you said,
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you know, if telling our story helps one person out there that might feel alone,
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feel seen, that's turning pain into power.
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That was super, super courageous.
1:00
So first of all, thank you both for being back here.
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Eddie.
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How do you feel about that statement about, you know, turning pain into power
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and really putting yourself out there to help other people?
1:11
When you guys started posting
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art students of all the last podcast, in
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one of the comments that I
1:20
think sour wrote, I wrote, it says this is a story of resiliency.
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I mean, immediately thought, you know, I'm not resilient.
1:28
You know, you're resilient.
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What you've gone through
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and what you've done with that pain and turning that into power.
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But I feel like I'm 58 years old and I'm just coasted for life.
1:40
You know, I do share my story in AA meetings and with people. And,
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you know,
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sometimes it affects them in a way that makes them feel less alone, like Tim said.
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But I feel like a failure, you know?
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I feel like I've accomplished nothing.
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Honestly, this is just the way I feel.
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So there's no resiliency there.
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The podcast that I was listening to, Monica Lewinsky and Lena Dunham,
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and I think it was Monica Lewinsky that said that
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sometimes being resilient is just taking the next breath.
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Yeah.
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And I thought to myself, it's beautiful statement.
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I breathe because I have no choice.
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In other words, I don't intentionally take the breath if I don't.
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You know, it's just you have to breathe.
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Yeah, but I don't.
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I didn't see it as being resilient.
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That being said,
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after the last after our last conversation, you know,
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you talked to me about forgiving yourself, which stayed with me, stayed with me.
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And I thought, you know, that's something.
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You know, it's part of one of the 12 steps in, in the program. And.
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I never really
2:51
forgave myself.
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You know, there are things they say in, in the program, sorry
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that you're, you know, you're you're not going to regret the past.
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You will no longer regret the past or wish to shut the door on it.
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I still have so much regret.
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I still have so much regret for the things that I did, the way that I treated
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people, the money I stole, the lies I told them.
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And.
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Even though I've talked about it, I've confessed.
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I still carry that and let that define how I see myself.
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But in the last few weeks,
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you know, I started to think
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I never really participated in my own healing.
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I accepted the thoughts I had as fact.
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Even though I will tell people all the time, feelings aren't facts,
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you know, you may feel like a piece of shit.
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It doesn't make it true, right?
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I accepted those feelings, you know,
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as truth and.
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I don't know.
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It's so hard because
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when you're in a good space, it's easy to see.
3:57
You know what?
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You know how to take control of your thinking.
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But I think back of all the times I dated people.
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Right.
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And take them hostage, you know, like you just take them hostage.
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You're like, I need to be with you. I need to be.
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And they never break up with you.
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And I was shattered.
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Shattered.
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And I couldn't sit there with the pain.
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I needed to know. What. What happened? Why didn't you love me?
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What did I do wrong? You know? Right.
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And it's like the thing that this man is fucking crazy, you know?
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Can I say crazy?
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You can say whatever you want.
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It's unscripted.
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I know what you mean.
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And you know, when you're talking about this,
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I think about, you know, I'm a certified life coach.
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I went to Ipek coaching.
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And one of the things that have stuck with me for I'm
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a life coach now for almost 14 years, is when the instructor said
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to us, you're a blueprint of everything that's ever happened to you, good or bad.
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And I think about that like, I like who I am today
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and I can't look back and say, I wish that never happened.
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Even the bad shit, even the sexual abuse, the drug use, everything.
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The way I treated people, the money I stole from people.
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I can't say I wish that never happened.
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I wouldn't be who I am today.
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So you're a blueprint of everything that's ever happened to you, good or bad.
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And that really helps me.
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It helped me in the healing process of
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I have to forgive myself for hurting myself, because forgiving
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myself is harder than forgiving other people for how they've wronged me.
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Does that make sense? Yeah, I don't understand.
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Like, you know, the blueprint is, you know, I get that.
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I am the mistakes, the good and the bad. But
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what do you do with that?
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You know.
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Yeah, I know this person who thinks these thoughts
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is made up of all the behaviors who did that.
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And I, you know, you will never hear me say good things about myself,
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but I know I am a good, caring, loving, giving person, right?
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That is innate. Me.
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It's an innate in my family.
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You know, I know that that exists in me,
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but it's the bad that I focus on.
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Yeah.
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Like if you can only see yourself the way others see you, right?
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Because you're fabulous.
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I think you're wonderful. I think you're a kind person.
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I don't even know you that well.
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And your energy is powerful.
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You know the comment that Sarah
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in the last episode, that you know, when
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she has gone through challenges
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in the time that we have been friends with the Solanas,
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you know, Sarah said lots of people were sending her messages, etc.,
6:39
and any center of prayer and how meaningful that was to her
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and that how she was experiencing God through.
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So, I mean, I live with the guy
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who is hard on himself and struggles
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to embrace the things that you just described,
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Eddie, that are so true of him.
7:02
The most generous person I've known.
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Literally. Yeah.
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And I'm that's not an exaggeration.
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Just there's this natural desire to give
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and to take care of, of individuals.
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And so but also,
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as he was talking about resiliency,
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just in the last few weeks, and I told this to Eddie yesterday
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that I'm just observing
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some behavior in him that evidences
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progress.
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You know, it's like those micro steps that we all hope for.
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But then I've just observed behavior in him in terms of responding
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to some things that sucked, you know, some challenges, etc., and.
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Didn't fold, didn't
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crumble and did not wallow in it
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the way that he has done, you know, in the past.
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Again, micro steps, but it was like micro steps count.
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It was like a significant observation of added, you realize
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this is how you responded, which was wonderful.
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And it just
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resiliency is is a is a life journey that that ends when we die.
8:27
Yeah.
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I mean every everyone deserves happiness and stuff like that.
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La la la okay.
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But from my heart to your heart, both of your hearts, for those
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of us who have suffered,
8:39
we need that.
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We deserve it.
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Now, I'm going to say this to you, Eddie, because again,
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I don't know you that well, but if you can't give yourself permission
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to forgive yourself, I give you permission to do
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it, and I will hold that in my heart until you're ready to take it.
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How's that sound? Thank you. You're welcome.
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What else can I do for you?
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You know what I mean? It's.
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It's a good deal.
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Yes, it's a good deal.
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You know what Tim just said? About
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what I've gone through the last few days, which is a deal, fell apart.
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Normally, I would personalize it.
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God hates me.
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This is punishment for who I am, who I was, the things that I did. But.
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And it was, I would say, almost effortless.
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I learned a lot from this deal, this one deal that fell apart.
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It would have been my first real estate deal.
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And I, you know, I don't know that I would have thought that before.
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Take the value in what happened in the lessons that I learned.
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It was a crash course on everything. Wow.
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Learning about real estate in Connecticut,
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which is different than what I was doing in Chicago.
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Yeah.
9:46
So but, you know, the last few weeks,
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I don't
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I try not to engage in the negative thinking,
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but there hasn't been a lot of reason for the negative thinking.
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I think, you know, I would never look myself in the mirror.
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I would I would look to see, but never look.
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Look at yourself in a mirror.
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No, no, I don't like what I see.
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But, you know, I haven't even been thinking that way.
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So, you know, I'm trying to
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make the effort to show up for my own healing, my own growth.
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But what scares me is like, you know, if I would.
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Tim and I were dating, and all of a sudden, I'm in a relationship
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and the person doesn't call my days of rolling.
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Yeah, I don't know how that would mean.
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I know how you know.
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That's how I used to be.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like, Tim and I've been together for 16 years.
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And when.
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And, you know,
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I haven't had to think those thoughts, but my God.
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But you still go back to them,
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Because I would crumble and I talk to my therapist about that.
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Like the fear of, like, have I changed because I found my therapist
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who was with me when I tried to kill myself in 1992
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when we moved to Connecticut and
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I knew I needed to get back into therapy, I found a therapist here.
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I was like, this man, this man.
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I hold him how I think about myself.
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And he goes, you know,
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when you have those thoughts, take a piece of paper and pen
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and just write something positive about yourself. And I thought to myself.
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No, that's not going to work. It's not gonna work.
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Just think. Happy with that?
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Yeah, it'll be fine.
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I don't know what in the world possessed me,
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but I tracked down Leslie Deutsch, who was my therapist when I before
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I even accepted that I was gay. Wow.
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She's a lesbian.
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I didn't know that.
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Did I tell you? No, no, please tell us.
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And I didn't know she was a lesbian when I went to her.
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And I was, like, trying to accept the fact that I was gay.
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Like trying to accept that I was in acting school.
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They were out people around me, and I couldn't be what they were.
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I couldn't be, you know, out loud and proud.
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And then she told me one day that she was carrying in twins
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and she needed to go on bed rest. And.
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She said she couldn't see me.
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And I thought, wow.
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I said, how would you feel if one of your sons,
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because she knew she was having boys, were gay,
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I would be fine with that.
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And I said, well, what about your husband?
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And at that point there was a pause, and then she was like, well, I'm not married.
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I'm having, you know, these children, these babies with my wife or my partner.
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I think she said at the time.
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And I was like, wait, wait a minute.
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You know, like you're like, I couldn't believe that
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this woman who is making me feel better about myself
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was a sexual deviant, too.
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Like, I felt like I felt duped.
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And I just remember, like, disassociating.
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Like, I don't know how I got out of there.
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I didn't, you know, I was just like, you know, I couldn't believe I felt like,
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of course you're telling me it's okay because you're fucked up to your lesbian.
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Like, this is so wrong.
13:03
Oh, wow.
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So she went on bed rest.
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I hadn't seen her for a while, but by the time I did go back to her,
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I had made progress and accepted my sexuality.
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And I don't know what happened.
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I think I actually, I think I met someone and started to accept the feelings.
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He's also the reason I tried to kill myself an overdose in 1992
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because he broke up with me.
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And that's where I go.
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If you don't love me, I am not worthy of being loved.
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And everything everyone ever said to me was true.
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You know? It was.
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It was every breakup was that, you know, I have to.
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I want to die.
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I can't I can't sit with the pain, you know?
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And that's part of the, the healing process.
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And all of these self-help books is, you know, don't act on the impulse.
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Yeah. Sit.
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Let it'll go away.
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I don't have that ability to, you know, just sit in the discomfort.
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I need answers, I need to know.
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Just tell me I'm a piece of shit. I can accept that.
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Tell me that's why you broke up with me.
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Well, how about if they were a piece of shit?
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That's why they were most of the time.
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Come on.
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Thank you, thank you.
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But I feel like every partner
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that I've had is really taught me some serious lessons.
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Really? I mean, you know what I mean?
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Like patience and, you know, when, like,
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I'm the same way when I fall for somebody, I'm hoping I'm getting better at this.
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But when I fall for someone, that's it.
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Their everything.
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And even if they treat me like shit, I write this story that, you know,
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they're going to give me what I need eventually.
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And I think sometimes that comes from being raised by unloving parents.
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I don't know what love. I used to say that to my therapist all the time.
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I don't know what love feels like.
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I don't know what love feels like.
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So I had to make up what I felt it felt like.
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And if you come from abuse,
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then not being treated kindly by somebody who says they love you feels normal,
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right?
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That is, I'm going to go someplace dark.
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But I know my parents love me.
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They were just they had six kids trying to make it in America,
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didn't speak the language, were not there for us.
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Six kids needed to raise their sons.
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I'm having, I don't know, sexual relations
15:18
with an older man who would give me money, who would hold me.
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That was love to me and older man, you know.
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And so I would seek out love through sexual relations.
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If you want to have sex with me, you must love me, you know.
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And that's what love was.
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I did go back to something when I first met him,
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and I don't know if we talked about this the first time.
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I said, you know, he wanted to date, you know, like he made it
15:43
very clear that he was interested in me.
15:44
And I was like, this is your first relationship out of a straight marriage.
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You don't want to be with me like this.
15:52
This is a lot of baggage warning, warning kind of thing,
15:56
you know? And.
15:59
I don't know,
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you know, we just spent we really in.
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It wasn't a relationship that was based on sex.
16:08
Yeah, it was a friendship that developed the best ones.
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They say 16 years. I guess it's right.
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And it hasn't always been easy.
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But, you know, we have a genuine love and care for each other,
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you know, that is new to me, this man. Oh.
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You know, he's put up with a lot,
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you know, and as crazy and as dark as there,
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as crazy in his dark, dark, the darkness that I can kind of live in.
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There's also this little kid in me that just loves to make him laugh.
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It was stupid things all day, every day that I do.
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You know, I, you know, he knows.
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And my favorite thing is to make him laugh, you know, and to like to
16:55
to go for, you know, like this guy will just like, from the gut laugh.
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Yeah. And it's me just being an idiot.
17:00
And only he and maybe two of my sisters ever get to see that person I was.
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I was just going to say I.
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I feel very special because he
17:09
is willing to be a complete,
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a complete idiot.
17:14
And so silly.
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But the guy's funny and, you know, he does it.
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There's a small audience for his full humor, but I feel honored that
17:25
I get to be part of that.
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But when when we think when we think back to
17:30
when we started our friendship, we were friends for two years
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before we started dating, and I was in the process of,
17:41
you know, separating from my wife.
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And he was in a relationship at the time.
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And we just we met and we just immediately
17:54
clicked and loved hanging out with each other.
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And it was like, boom!
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Every day we were just hang out, go to a movie,
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just whatever we were, you know, doing plays in Chicago at the time.
18:08
So we were running lines together, etc..
18:10
And he did give me that warning.
18:12
You know, it's like I'm a dick.
18:14
Like, yeah, not you do not want to engage.
18:19
And I heard it.
18:21
I dismissed it because
18:24
my experience was I
18:27
just really enjoyed being with him.
18:30
And I'm so grateful that
18:35
and it might have my motivation
18:38
at the time was probably completely selfish.
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I enjoy I love this feeling that I have when I'm with him hanging out again.
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It was not sexual.
18:49
It was not that kind of a relationship.
18:51
But I loved the feeling that care and just
18:55
and and just kindness that he described.
18:59
I was receiving all of that and it felt wonderful and it felt pure
19:06
because it wasn't mixed up in a sexual,
19:08
yeah, romantic relationship, but it was just us.
19:11
Whatever we were.
19:13
Clearly I was attracted to him.
19:15
But anyway, I'm so grateful
19:18
that, you know, now on the other side of it
19:22
and yeah, we've gone through challenging times in our relationship.
19:27
You know, like any other relationship, you know,
19:30
friendship, romantic family, you name it, they all all go through your challenges.
19:36
But oh my gosh, now on the other side of it, I
19:41
even despite the challenges,
19:44
my view is just
19:48
that we're just we're just good together.
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There's a, there's something that is just, you know, we've said to each other,
19:57
God placed us in each other's path for a reason.
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And I do believe that.
20:05
And there's there is just something
20:09
that is good about the combination of Tim and Eddie.
20:13
And I'm grateful that I didn't listen to you.
20:16
I don't know,
20:18
listen to you. But
20:21
so two years as friends and did it just did
20:25
it just meld into relationship or was there was a lot of talking about it?
20:28
I mean, no, no, it's a no talking.
20:31
No. I literally we would go we went on,
20:35
you know, a couple trips to South Beach together just, you know, as friends.
20:38
And then on one of those trips, you know, it just turned a romantic corner.
20:44
Yeah.
20:45
And I'm when I sleep, I talk
20:47
in my sleep, I thrash in my sleep at some point.
20:51
I don't remember this,
20:52
but Tim said you just leaned over and kissed me on the cheek.
20:55
I know, that's weird.
20:56
And then there was a time when he had on a pair of jeans
21:00
and I thought, oh my God, that man's got a really nice.
21:04
And I've never noticed that before,
21:08
you know, he's he's.
21:09
How dare you, buddy.
21:12
Hey, buddy. Oh, God.
21:14
Who the hell is he?
21:16
No, I say, I know I can, I just really stop for a second,
21:19
you know, I say, oh, God, because I went to this doctor, okay?
21:22
A gastro, I'm not going to say his name, but that's what he said.
21:26
Hey, buddy.
21:27
And I'm like, hey, buddy, sit over there, buddy.
21:30
Put your stuff there, buddy.
21:32
I'm like, what the hell is going on with this buddy thing? So.
21:35
So people actually use that? Sorry, doc.
21:38
I thought you were a little called so many people that you married. Mr..
21:43
This guy's never done a drug.
21:45
Oh, you know, he would.
21:46
I would make fun of him saying when he gets out on his bike,
21:49
he uses the hand signals.
21:51
What was it? Do you really?
21:53
Well, because I wouldn't be surprised to be on it.
21:56
Very weird.
21:57
Shows the speed limit.
21:58
This is who I married, you know. Wow.
22:00
But opposites attract. Yes, yes.
22:03
Very much.
22:05
My sister Rosie, the youngest, would always.
22:08
Was she?
22:08
A couple of times she's like, does he get your sense of humor?
22:11
Like, did she knows?
22:12
That was what I was thinking?
22:14
Is that this persona, this this kid is a child.
22:19
You know, the things I tell him, I make up stories, and it's like a little kid.
22:23
Yeah, just making up stories and.
22:25
And it just occurred to me it's like that is the kid I never got to be.
22:30
You know? I never got to be that kid. Yeah.
22:33
And and he'll tell me I'm coming home.
22:35
I said, okay, I'm going to go high.
22:37
And, you know, stupid. It's so stupid.
22:39
It's like, okay.
22:40
I'm like, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:42
I just say, like, you probably have learned so much from each other
22:46
having, like, such different lives,
22:48
like being brought up from the last time, how you shared,
22:50
you know, you're like, you've had a family that pretty stable, right?
22:54
Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:55
So had his car broken into and the stereo readout.
23:01
This is what I remember. I don't think we were dating.
23:04
And he said, oh, they smashed my window.
23:06
I got to go get a new window.
23:08
And just normal, like, you know, I have to go to make a deposit at the main.
23:13
And I was like, oh, my God,
23:14
if that would mean I'd be on the floor crying like, this is more evidence.
23:18
God hates me and he just deals.
23:20
He just deals.
23:22
Yeah.
23:23
And I always stuck out to me, you know.
23:25
And he's still just continued.
23:26
I've seen him get upset at things, but he just.
23:29
Okay, let's this is what we're going to do and we're going to fix the situation.
23:32
And I go into victim mode like, you know, the universe hates me.
23:37
And this is more evidence, you know, that I'm being punished.
23:40
And I think I, I, I definitely catastrophes.
23:45
I've talked to my therapist, you know often about that
23:49
but that that fix it mode is, I think, a defense
23:54
almost a good defense mechanism of okay, this situation.
24:00
What I mean, what do I need to do to get the hell out of that?
24:03
What do I need to do to be on the other side of that?
24:06
Boom, boom, boom, make this phone call.
24:07
Okay, cool.
24:08
I'm bringing my car over.
24:10
Make it go away. Yeah.
24:13
I mean, it serves me because I'll.
24:15
I will just address things and fix them.
24:19
Yes, I can, but yeah.
24:22
Your podcast, you talked about being on Thorazine, and I hope you don't mind.
24:25
No, no.
24:26
Yeah. Diagnosed bipolar.
24:28
No, no.
24:30
Yeah, I was young.
24:31
I'm talking about probably not even 13 years old
24:34
because I didn't know what to do.
24:35
I mean, back then, you know, I'm 63, so, you know, I was up
24:40
like, in seven in the 70s.
24:41
You know, when I don't.
24:43
Thank you, thank you. I don't act or look my age.
24:47
But back
24:48
then, nobody knew how to deal with the kid who was so, you know, dark.
24:52
Yeah. Yeah. Dark.
24:54
Yeah. So.
24:55
Yeah.
24:55
So Thorazine shuffle, as they say.
25:00
Every kind of medication.
25:03
I was diagnosed bipolar at Silver Hill when I went in to get.
25:07
I actually didn't go to Silver Hills against sober, but I discovered AA.
25:11
Yeah, yeah.
25:12
I'm not supposed to talk about AA. That's why I hesitate.
25:14
You're not supposed to whatever the program to get recovery.
25:18
But I went in because I wanted to hurt myself and
25:22
but that's where they said, you know, and I do have bipolar tendencies,
25:26
you know, ten I was thinking about this as he was talking.
25:29
He never overspent like he knows what his budget is.
25:33
He, you know, I will get a paycheck deplete gone.
25:37
It's gone on things.
25:38
And then I'm like, I don't know, I like what I do.
25:41
Yeah.
25:41
You know, it's like this, this inability to control my impulses.
25:45
Yeah, yeah.
25:47
Something that you had said about,
25:53
just your early challenges
25:56
triggered this topic of regret.
26:00
And I was thinking about this morning
26:04
that I do I do have some regrets.
26:08
People have asked me. Or do you have what? Regrets. Do you have?
26:11
And I think about the regrets I do have and the regrets I don't.
26:14
And the regrets that I don't have are the story that I shared in the
26:19
last episode of coming out, my Beautiful children, my grandchildren, meeting Eddie.
26:24
All of that journey had a purpose to it, and I had no regrets.
26:29
Any regret that I had really is is,
26:32
you know, I know I caused people pain, you know, my children,
26:36
who wants to hear from their father that they're gay?
26:39
That immediately threatens their feeling of home and safety.
26:43
What's going to happen to our family?
26:45
And I have regret for,
26:49
you know, my ex-wife for the hurt that I caused her.
26:53
So my regrets are about hurt that I have caused people.
26:58
But I have no regrets. And I,
27:02
I have gratitude for
27:04
the fact that somehow I mustered the courage
27:09
to separate from a 30 year marriage, that I again, I catastrophe.
27:14
So I'm going to ruin my family. I'm going to explode my family.
27:17
Somehow I had faith that doesn't have to be the outcome.
27:20
Right.
27:22
But yeah, that's that's it.
27:25
I mean, you live it, so I don't think, like you.
27:29
Maybe you don't even feel the magnitude of that.
27:31
The courage you had to do that.
27:33
People listening would be like, what this guy did, what, 30 years?
27:38
And he was.
27:39
Yeah, but I mean, I when when you were telling the story.
27:42
What a fulfilling life.
27:43
I mean, you've experienced everything. You've had children.
27:46
Now you have grandkids.
27:47
Really? That's amazing.
27:49
Yeah.
27:50
That's good. And everybody's everybody sees each other.
27:52
And yeah, I was I was going to say when Eddie talks
27:55
about how I love his sense of humor, my children
27:59
like they just
28:01
they really they get they get his, his humor to.
28:05
And there's a silliness that is just it brings strength.
28:10
Well, listen, you know,
28:11
I can talk to you guys all day, all day, and we might have to have a part three.
28:16
Who knows? Who knows?
28:17
Because maybe we'll get a little glimpse of Eddie's,
28:20
you know, foolish humor.
28:23
Maybe, maybe, maybe Eddie will hide next time.
28:26
Oh, yeah.
28:27
I'll have to talk to her later, so.
28:30
Thank you.
28:30
Listen, thank you so much for being back on, and everyone have a great day.
28:35
Thanks for listening. See you next time.