Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / How To Maximize Gains With A.I. Trading Perps 💰 Liquid CEO INTERVIEW

Transcript

How To Maximize Gains With A.I. Trading Perps 💰 Liquid CEO INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: How is AI trading the market today? We're going to
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: be breaking this down, taking a look at how crypto
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: is impacted by what's going on in AI. And it's
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: going to be a good one. I do want to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: thank our sponsor today, and that is Tangent, where you
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: guys can get into self-custody. It is the last day
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: you can take advantage of getting a wallet and the
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: next one 50% off. So do that if you're not
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: in self-custody or even if you are in self-custody and
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: you want that extra wallet. Check out Tangent.com. Use our link.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's going to get you moving and get you a
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: little bit more of a discount. So it does stack.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: So make sure and take advantage of that. And let's
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: get going. Listen, we've had Andrew Wang on or Franklin
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Wang on before, the founder of Liquid. And we wanted
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: to bring him back on because I think the point
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: today that we wanted to get to is really understanding
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: what is happening around the idea of AI as it
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: pertains to crypto. So I want to welcome Franklin Wang
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: back into the show. How are you, Franklin? Hey, listen,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: I want to, first of all, we've had you on
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: before and you guys will probably remember this video as,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: what is that, two months ago?
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: And it was really talking about AI integration, a little
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: bit about where Liquid is. Can you tell me a
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: little bit about Liquid and its growth so far?
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: So when we did that video, I think we had
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: about 1,500 co-invest users. I don't know the exact date.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: We were growing really, really quickly back then. We are
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: now at 10,000 co-invest users.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: So we've grown 7x since then.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: For some of our audience, helping them understand Liquid for
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: the first time, they've never used it. Give them kind
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: of a rundown of really where your benefits are, some
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: of the features that really make you guys special.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: So Liquid's goal is to build the best possible trading
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: interface for everyone. First, we started with what we think
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: is the best instrument, which is perpetual futures. I think
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: at the time, these were starting to get warmer and
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: warmer as like, okay, historically, these haven't really been legal
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: in the US, but they're clearly trending towards the direction
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: of legality. So we think that perpetual futures are like
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: the best possible instrument. They let you get leverage, they
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: run 24-7.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: And so.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: The largest part of Liquid's mission today is thus in
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: bringing perpetual futures to every interface imaginable. So you can
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: think of mobile apps. That was our first flagship product.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: We brought them inside of Cloud and ChatGPT. Since we
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: made that video, we've actually kept expanding. So you can
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: now even interact with CoInvest via text message. And you
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: can also interact via a Chrome extension that will sort
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: of show Liquid assets in various things like X and
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: Reddit and let you buy directly from there.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: So when you look at some of the big wins,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: especially when it comes to AI calls, since the launch,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: has there been anything that sticks out for you guys?
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: There's one yesterday that really, really sticks out. So I'm
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: going to go talk about that. One of our users,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: It's JC Merlo, used CoInvest, connected it to his system,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: and made 20% returns yesterday trading crypto. He chose some
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: very obscure crypto names like one of them was seeker
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: and I didn't recognize the other ones. He chose one
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: crypto that went up like a hundred percent and it
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: was all thanks to him. It was all thanks to co-invest. Like,
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: It wasn't a crypto that I recognized. So he was
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: able to do this. And what's really interesting is that
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: he was doing this in more of an agentic way.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: So back then when he showed Co-Invest, right? You could
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: basically ask it like, what should I buy? And maybe
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: like you buy one thing or like four things or whatever.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: But he runs Co-Invest with a routine. There are now
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: these things called scheduled routines inside of Claude, which let
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: you run one operation like every hour, for example. So
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: he has his like routine and And he runs it
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: every single hour. And when that happens, it makes the trades.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: So he doesn't need to like importantly, he doesn't need
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: to like look at anything. He just types in his
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: routine and it just keeps going.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: And I think this really highlights something, which is that
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: if you have a process like locked and loaded in
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: the past, you would have.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: To apply this process every single day.
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: But now with AI, you can just give it the process.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: and tell it to run it every single hour and
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: it'll keep running until the end of time, which I
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: think is really.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Really cool.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Are you at all concerned about AI and the use
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: of wallets and or being able to really get exposure
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: to your portfolio in general at all in terms of safety?
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: Obviously, there have been a lot of security issues recently
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: in the crypto space. Many of them are caused by
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: AI because a lot of these methods people are using
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: are very, very likely to create like issues. Like one
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: of the ways we can prevent it is actually by
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: using relatively low tech approaches. So if someone hacks your
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: entire clod and had access to your co-invest, they wouldn't
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: be able to withdraw money. I think that's like a very,
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: very important criteria. Someone hacks your co-invest, they can't withdraw money.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: The worst thing they can do is maybe they can
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: play some trades. And even that's like a little complicated.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: So co-invest itself has very narrowly scoped permission. It cannot
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: withdraw your money. It can only trade. So once that's
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: the case, there's very limited things that a hacker could do,
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: even if they could access your co-invest. And obviously we
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: have a lot of things in place to make sure
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: they can access it.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: So.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at Coinbase, their announcement in terms of their
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: own AI Coinbase for agents. Rebalance my portfolio. I'm just
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: kind of curious, why wouldn't someone use Coinbase AI to
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: trade versus something like a Coinvest?
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: Well, there's a few reasons. So Coinbase is custodial, right?
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: If Coinbase gets hacked, you're an unsecured creditor. If liquid
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: goes under, you can still access your funds. Secondly- Coinbase's
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: fees are like exorbitantly high. Coinbase's fees are like 10x
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: those of Liquids. I think Coinbase's liquidity.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Is much lower than Liquids as well. If you want
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: to make big trades, I don't think you can really
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: make them on Coinbase. Okay.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: How do I feel about all these other platforms like
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Coinbase and Robinhood launching these agentic products, right? And I
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: think it actually validates that this is clearly something people really,
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: really want, right? This is absolutely what we see. This
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: is what we think we see there. We've done very
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: little marketing for Coinvest and the usage is very, very high.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: People are just kind of catching up. I actually don't
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: know if this Coinbase product is like in beta or whatever,
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: but we are kind of already thinking about the next step.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: We think these guys are sort of actually copying us.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's any coincidence that Robinhood Agentic came
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: out the day after Liquid co-invested and it took them.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Like two weeks to actually launch it. So I think we'll.
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: Always be devoted to providing the best possible experience. I
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: think Liquid security is just much superior to Coinbase's in
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: this front. Wow.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about meme coins in general. I'm looking here
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: on hood chain and this kind of surprised me even
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: 431 of the top 500 tokens right now on Robinhood chain,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: which actually, uh, dwarfs Solana. Now this is in reference
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: to the 500 tokens. That's not all crypto because Solana
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: would be huge in comparison. But when you look at
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: meme coins in general, when will co-invest be smart enough
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: to actually trade meme coins, do you think? Is that
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: something that you guys are working on or is it
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: something already in effect?
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: We have built some products in this category. Suffice to say,
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: I do not think it would be technically very challenging
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: to write these things, but I generally think that If
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: you ask Co-Invest to buy a meme coin for you,
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: it usually is pretty hesitant. I think that meme coins
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: are kind of a net negative to society. It's not
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: really participating in capital formation. It's all some attention game.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: If you really tell Co-Invest to do so... Co-Invest is
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: about helping people make smarter decisions with their money. I
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: think buying meme coins is not a very smart financial decision.
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: So in that sense, we don't let Co-Invest buy meme coins.
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: It would not be technically hard to let Co-Invest buy
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: meme coins. It would be very, very easy.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: So this is a choice.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: you guys are making in reference to... Okay, so just
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: restricting the access to meme coins, at least from an
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: AI standpoint. AI would probably go crazy on it. What
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: about this? I want to kind of get into a
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: couple of points here. Do you think AI right now
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: is calling the crypto bottom?
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: Well, it's up a lot in the last few weeks, right?
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: So is the recent market low a bottom? It actually
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: doesn't say that the.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Bottom is in. Okay, there you go. Yeah, it says...
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: It's not yet. It's not at a bottom.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Not confirmed. So if you're trusting that, then maybe that's
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: something to consider, guys. What about how would AI trade
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: the Clarity Act right now, passing or failing? Do you
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: think it would fail it or pass? I've actually asked
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: that question of two different AI functions that we use,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and I got two different answers.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: So are you asking how CoInvest would trade it?
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Well, in general, how would AI trade Clarity Act? in
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: terms of the act actually passing or failing? Do you
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: think they would trade it to fail or trade it,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: you know, trading on the side that it would fail,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: trading on the side that it would pass?
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: We can ask it this question. I admit I haven't
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: asked it this problem.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: I think it would probably, I think my guess is
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: that AI can really only draw upon what it can see, right?
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: So it might look at prediction market data. It might
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: try to see, are there one side of the market
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: that can often tell what's going.
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: On, right?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for the AI that understands that. If the
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: AI truly understands the flow of sentiment in crypto, that
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: to me, I think, is how you would really start
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: to get ahead of some of these.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: You could ask Co-Invest right now to think of the
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Clarity Act.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's looking at the prediction markets in particular.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: It's also looking to see what Congress is saying. It's
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: looking at news. It's looking at all these sources. It
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: says that it gives a very low chance. It says
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: it probably won't pass.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's polymarket speaking. We'll just show the clarity
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: act right there. So when you look at this, I mean,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: many people would say, all right, if you're going polymarket,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: you're going to trade against it. So that could be
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: a variety of tokens. Would CoInvest be able to select
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: tokens on the basis that Clarity does not pass? So
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the assumption is Clarity does not pass based on the
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: data we have right now.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: What tokens would CoInvest say, all right, this is the
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: position we should take?
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Let's just ask it. Well, it is saying that if
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: it passes, crypto is likely to go higher.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Well, sure.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you need AI to tell you that.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: It seems to be generally, I think, bearish. It generally
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: thinks that it's already priced in. And if it passes,
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: it would go up.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: OK. All right.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: So let's move on from here. So a couple of
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: things I wanted to go off of there. We talked
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: a little bit about meme coins, what the possibility here
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: is on the clarity side. When you look at something
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: that's going on with the CFTC, because this is something
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: that may start to shift how investors work here in
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: the U.S., especially if the CFTC brings hyperliquid legally to
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the United States. I want to play a clip for you. Actually,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: this is a clip that's talking about the response during
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: that last meeting, because this makes a lot of sense
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: for you guys if you're looking at how to understand
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: what's going to be happening in the markets. Let me
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: play this clip for you.
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: I would have to ask the commission what they are
• 11:13
  Speaker 5: doing to police everybody's VPN where they are not accessing
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: these markets. That's horrible for our industry. We're not a
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: bunch of carnival barkers at a circus.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: This occurred offshore, and that's fake news. No, I'm just
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: asking a simple answer to the question. Have you guys
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: had an issue with market surveillance?
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: I have more people in my regulatory department than you
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: do in your entire company, okay? Thank you.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Maybe you should learn a bit about efficiency then.
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: Well, maybe you should learn about credible markets.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: Let's try to keep this productive.
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: How do you resolve disagreements amongst a very vast array
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: of different players in the industry who obviously have different
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: agendas and different interests?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Well, you don't want to resolve them. You want those
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: things to be aired out.
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's actually productive to hear where
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: the dividing lines are. I think you want to understand
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: where the battle lines are. It got a little spicy
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: for a second, but that's okay. That's what makes these
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: meetings interesting. And that helps us to distinguish what we
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: have to work on going forward.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: All right. So what we saw there was the clarity,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: or excuse me, the meeting last week, it was with
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the CFTC. That was Chair Selig and Duffy kind of
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: going at it along with Hyperliquid there. Do you think,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: like for instance, Terry Duffy right now, he's wanting to
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: ban anything that has 5x leverage. Why do you think
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: that they're concerned about that?
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: Of course, the CME doesn't offer more than 5x leverage. Yeah.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: So of course, he's worried about other people offering more
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: than 5x leverage.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: So just simple market preservation, this is the angle they're
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: looking at right now.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Because hyperliquid is technologically much more advanced than the CME.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: It's 24-7.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: It offers....
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: High amounts of leverage. It offers automatic liquidation. So that's
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: why it lets people have more leverage. Much more advanced,
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: I think, in many ways than the CME. So I
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: think to that extent, yeah.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: If Seelig is successful on-shoring hyperliquid, first of all, how
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: would that function? And what do you think would be
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the impact on markets if hyperliquid were to become a
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: real thing here in the U.S.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: I think if hyperliquid is legalized, you've probably seen the
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: CME stock price react negatively to hyperliquid being legalized. I
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: think that's very bad for the CME because right now
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: many U.S. funds want to trade on hyperliquid but can't, right?
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: And so once it's legalized, you can imagine they'll want
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: to trade on both hyperliquid and CME, and the CME
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: will finally face a challenge to its historical monopoly.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. When you look at what's going on
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: with perps in general, hyperliquid obviously kind of playing a
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: huge role in this market. Liquid out there now also
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: playing a huge role. When you look at something like Anthropic,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: this is a good example right here. Do you think
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: that we will see liquid and others start to really
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: put a dent in the potential for what is coming?
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: And that is an AI IPO season. We're going to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: probably start with Anthropic. OpenAI is coming as well. There
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: will be others. Do you think this is going to
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: have any kind of impact on those markets?
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: Right now, the bankers and Anthropic are negotiating what Anthropic's
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: price should be. And having a market like this gives
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: both sides something to point to. So if anyone wants
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: to point to a price that's radically different from these.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: Either side can point to this, right? Like if Anthropic's like,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: we want 2.5, the bankers can say, this place says
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: you're worth 1.95. And conversely, if the bankers want 1.5,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: Anthropic can point to this and say, no, it's 1.95.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Is there enough data sample there to really do price
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: discovery out there prior to an IPO offering, do you think?
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: I think that it's probably not terribly wrong, right? These
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: markets are generally well-known enough that most people who have
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: information can kind of contribute it, right?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: The markets are not huge right now.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: I expect that a real anthropic market will have 1,000x
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: the current volumes of anthropic pre-IPO, but there is no
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: anthropic pre-IPO market on official rails, right?
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: This is the only thing we have. So I think that.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Historically, if you've looked at the pre-IPO histories of companies
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: like Liquid and Hyperliquid, we've basically gotten it right within
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: 1% every time as to where the IPO will initially
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: trade at.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Or at least the opening print, not the exact IPO price.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'd have to give credit to that, even if
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: you just looked at SpaceX, because it was accurate to
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: that point. So that's some history on a major IPO,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: which Anthropic is most likely going to have a very
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: similar scale to kind of go in that. So OK,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: so how fast do you think, Franklin, before we would
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: see everyday investors? Now, I'm not talking about somebody that
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: maybe is active in crypto, but a traditional investor that's
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: been active in TradFi for a while. How long do
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: you think it's going to be before they start moving
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: to liquid, hyperliquid, et cetera, and truly making trades there?
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: I think it will happen very fast. We've seen very
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: large growth.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: I think last time we talked, Liquid was probably at like,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: I want to say 35,000 users. Today, we're well over 60,000.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: And so just in those two months, we've gained like
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: tens of thousands of users. All of our metrics suggest
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: that we are going exponential. We're finding better ways to
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: tap traditional investors. And generally, when they hear they can
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: get pre-IPO exposure to Anthropic, they're very excited about that.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: So I think they all clearly want exposure.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: What do you think, in terms of hype, do you
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: think they should be or that platform should be worried
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: about market share right now? Because this seems to be
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a power grab.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: In what sense? Like, yeah, can you be more explicit?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Well, in the sense of market share, when you look
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: at perps, because perps are launching across a variety of platforms,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: we're going to see this everywhere. And Hyperliquid has kind
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: of been the only game in town. Do you think
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: they should worry about market share here in the near future?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is one of the big
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: pieces of the thesis for Liquid.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: It's that we will have, we have a lot of,
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: we aggregate many different perp dexes and perp sexes, right?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: We believe that perpetual futures are like the right solution.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: We think every single perpetual exchange has its own advantages
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: and disadvantages, right?
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Some might have different fees, different liquidity, different instruments.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: And our goal is to put all of them together
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: and kind of let the user choose, right?
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: Product SIG lighter. Like we were the first integration partner
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: of lighter. So we believe that more competition, that layer
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: is better for consumers. So generally we think hyper liquid,
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: of course, should be worried about market share and they
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: should be worried that they have many competitors now. I
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: think it's a big win for consumers. Liquid will always
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: provide the best venues to its consumers.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the chips hype that has been going
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: on for the last year versus crypto. Do you think
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: that is going to continue or do you think that
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: particular narrative is starting to die off?
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: AI just needs a lot of memory. I think that's
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: one reason why the chips have been rallying. There's definitely
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: some aspect of like, are we in a bubble territory? Obviously,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: they've run up a lot. I think that was pretty reasonable.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: I think that memory was very underpriced for a long time.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: Right now, I still feel like it's slightly underpriced, but
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: I think it's hard to know for sure. Also, it's
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: run up a lot, so you may see a lot
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: of volatility. A lot of people might want to take profits.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, listen, this could get even more exponential too.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, you look at what Nvidia is doing with
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Hugging Face, the likelihood, I mean, they're going to essentially
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: become a vertical stack. So I wonder the kind of
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: impact that's going to have in general to chips and
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: overall the AI narrative. Do you feel like investors today
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: should be diversifying or do you feel like they just
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: need to jump into a high convicted position and go
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: that route? For instance, I'm all in on digital assets.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Maybe someone's all in on chips. Maybe someone's all in on,
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: you know, anthropic or other AI platforms. Where do you
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: think that plays out?
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I think that there's a few things going on, right?
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Like, I think that if you've kind of been looking
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: at chips, chips have obviously run up a lot. It's
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: a little psychologically hard to bring yourself to kind of
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: invest more into it. It's like, what am I doing here?
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Why am I buying this after it's already run up 900%?
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: I think that.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: There's a really enduring, there's enduring quality in those businesses.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: The chips are likely to do well. I don't know
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: if I would really advise, like, I would probably advise
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: you should keep some allocation towards that.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think I would say this is go all
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: in on that.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: Like, there are a lot of risks that I think
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: are very real. Like, is China going to make the chips?
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: At some point, this chip shortage will stop. Maybe the
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: AIs get more efficient. they use less compute these are
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: all real possibilities I can't tell you like I cannot
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: in good faith recommend like hey pivot all of your
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: assets into memory I think it's pretty strong as a narrative.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I think it's pretty strong as a business.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: I've heard rumors that Anthropic believes they'll use even more
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: memory in the future. You look at the way Anthropic
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: is signing... data center deals, like it's going out of style.
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: Like clearly there's a lot of demand for compute. These
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: companies like Anthropic are able to generate huge amounts of
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: revenue for like one gigawatt of power. In that sense,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: Anthropic is not really even being that price sensitive. Like
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: you saw a $ 45 billion deal for N scale, like
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: obviously $ 1. 25 billion a month at SpaceX, huge deals, not
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: really price sensitive, just going all in. So everything in
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: that supply chain is going to be a huge beneficiary
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: of that.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Do you think we're ever going to have compute at,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, because we are starting to see some trends
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: for local compute that obviously will have an impact on
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: certain aspects of the market. Obviously, we will see machine level,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I think AI now starting to scale. Do you think
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: that's ever going to have a component where maybe that
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: would potentially slow down that market?
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: I think there's a real risk that local AI kind
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: of threatens the markets. I do think that cloud agents
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: in particular, like agents you don't run locally are just
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: much better. Like if you use right now, if you
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: use like codex or cloud, you can run them in
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: like a local agent mode where you can run them
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: on your own compute.
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: And I think that's just a very bad interface generally.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Like it's, it's okay. It's okay.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: But like having cloud agents, you just tell it to
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: do something.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: It does it for you.
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: Like in a very simple level, if you run it
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: on your own computer and then you turn your computer off,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: your computer won't be able to do anything for you, right?
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: You probably don't want to keep your computer on all
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Have you guys done any testing with like Grokbot with their,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: essentially they have a cloud agent tool that's similar, I think,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: going that direction. Have you guys done any testing with
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: that yet?
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. We use Grokbot for a lot of different managerial tasks.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: It's really quite impressive. We also use Cognition's Devon product,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: very similar product to Cloud Agents. Cloud Agents, I think,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: work very well because the environment is very controlled. If
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: you're using your agent on your computer and then your
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: computer disconnects from Wi-Fi, it's game over. So Cloud Agents
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: really do solve a lot of problems.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: All right, last question to you is we covered this
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: project last week. It's Arrow. And essentially, this is an
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: RWA platform essentially allowing you to earn some profits within
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: RWAs themselves. But what's happening is this is on Robinhood Chain.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: What about Liquid on Robinhood Chain at some point? Is
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: that ever coming down the pipe where obviously we can
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: see vaults, all sorts of creative ways to utilize Robinhood Chain?
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: We're absolutely going to support.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: We believe in providing the best experience for our users.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: We don't really... We're not like... We're not married to
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: a chain in particular.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: If Robinhood offers high amounts of yield, we'll integrate Robinhood Chain.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: We'll obviously support deposits from Robinhood Chain.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: We've listed many Robinhood Chain tickers like Cash Cat, Ponds,
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: major ones that aren't super sketchy.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I think that we aren't.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: Tied to a chain. We aren't tied to a chain.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: We just generally want to give whatever is best for users.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: So if Robinhood Chain offers massive incentives, we'll let users
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: take advantage of that.
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, there you go. Listen, Franklin, we're going to
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: continue to watch this because I think this is getting
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: ready to heat up. We are going to see a
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: lot of AI integrated perps. I think we're going to
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: see a lot more just in AI integration into crypto.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: And I don't know that this is the end of this.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I think we're probably.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Going to have a big trend here. I think this
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: is a flash in the pan moment.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: I think undoubtedly people, one way to think about it
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: is that everything kind of water flows uphill to downhill, right?
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: And I think generally, human effort also takes the path
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: of least resistance. And AI, no matter what you think
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: of it, definitely lets you do things with less resistance.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: So in that sense, undoubtedly, there will be more and
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: more AI. That's an intrinsic rule of the world.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I like it. Franklin Wang, thanks for coming in today.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: We appreciate it.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: If you like this video, hit like and subscribe, drop
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: a comment down below, and also join our free private
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: member group. The link is in the description.